Ken Pollack And Michael O’Hanlon: Often Wrong, But Never In Doubt
Ken Pollack And Michael O’Hanlon: Often Wrong, But Never In Doubt
After a recent trip to Iraq, Brookings analysts Michael O’Hanlon and Ken Pollack report today in the New York Times that “we are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms.”
O’Hanlon and Pollack bill themselves “as two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq.” The op-ed contains “no mention anywhere of the fact that both men very prominently backed the initial invasion and the ’surge.’” Pollack, who authored a pre-war book he described as “the case for invading Iraq,” appeared on the Oprah Winfrey show in Oct. 2002 uncritically touting the false intelligence about Iraq:
POLLACK: What we know for a fact from a number of defectors who’ve come out of Iraq over the years is that Saddam Hussein is absolutely determined to acquire nuclear weapons and is building them as fast as he can.
O’Hanlon has shared Pollack’s euphoria over attacking Iraq. Prior to the invasion, he predicted a “a rapid and decisive” victory. He has sought to convince war critics to get behind the escalation. And now he is pushing a plan for Iraq that envisions a long-term occupation.
Now that Pollack and O’Hanlon have returned from Iraq, they are embarking on a public relations tour calling for stay the course in Iraq. During an appearance this weekend on CNN, O’Hanlon claimed that war “is going brilliantly at this point.” Asked to respond to O’Hanlon’s assertion, CNN Baghdad corespondent Arwa Damon said the sentiment on the ground in Iraq is completely the opposite:
FOREMAN: Arwa, is there a sense in Baghdad on the ground that that’s exactly what’s happening?
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Tom, actually not when you speak to the Iraqi people. In fact, most of those that I’ve spoken to will not really say that they feel that the situation is getting better. Remember, they’re not measuring their own security in terms of numbers of U.S. casualties or numbers of bodies that were found unidentified throughout the entire capital. They are measuring their sense of whether or not things are getting better by the level of comfort with which they can leave their homes. For most Iraqis, they are still just as petrified of falling victim of sectarian violence or any other sort of attack that could take place in the capital today as they were before the surge began.
Watch it:
Pollack and O’Hanlon applaud the administration’s military strategy for providing “basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people,” praise the ‘reliability‘ of Iraqi security forces, and express genuine surprise over “how well the coalition’s new Embedded Provincial Reconstruction Teams are working.” O’Hanlon’s metrics of success have no grounding in reality:
– Residents of Baghdad are now receiving just one or two hours of electricity each day
– Iraqi security forces are deserting in large numbers
– A new report released last week found that reconstruction has stalled
Ken Pollack and Michael O’Hanlon: often wrong, but never in doubt.
UPDATE: O’Hanlon’s dispatch from a previous trip to Iraq, 10/5/03:
The U.S.-led mission in Iraq is still quite likely to succeed over a time period of roughly three to five years. The lack of any unifying ideology for the resistance there makes it unlikely we will face a snowballing mass insurgency. Moreover, most of the difficult attributes of the effort are not the result of administration mistakes so much as the inherent challenge of the job.
Atrios notes that O’Hanlon and Pollack parrot an old conservative line.
More from Jonathan Schwarz.
UPDATE II: Joe Klein offers a muddled reaction:
I agree with many, but not all, of the conclusions Ken Pollack and Michael O’Hanlon reach in this NY Times column, but you really can’t write a piece about the wa[r] in Iraq and devote only two sentences to the political situation, which is disastrous and, as Petraeus has said, will determine the success or failure of the overall effort.
Transcript:
FOREMAN: So what’s the real situation on the ground? Arwa Damon is in our Baghdad bureau. CNN military analyst Brigadier David Grange, U.S. Army retired joins us from Chicago and here in Washington Michael O’Hanlon, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, just back from Iraq. Michael, let me start with you. The basic question, is the surge working?
MICHAEL O’HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: In military terms, yes. Two big reasons, one, we are doing very well against al Qaeda in Iraq. I don’t want to jump into this whole debate about whether they’re taking orders from Osama bin Laden or not, but they have an extreme ideology and they have gone so far that the Sunni-Arab tribes are now fighting against them. I walked through the streets of Ramadi a couple of days ago without body armor. That city is turned around, 95 percent reduction of violence because the Sunni sheikhs and tribes are with us now against al Qaeda. That’s going great. The sectarian violence much less well resolved so far, but at least we’ve put a bit of a cap or a lid on it with our greater troop strength. So that’s the more long-term problem. But the fight against al Qaeda is going brilliantly at the moment.
FOREMAN: Arwa, is there a sense in Baghdad on the ground that that’s exactly what’s happening?
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Tom, actually not when you speak to the Iraqi people. In fact, most of those that I’ve spoken to will not really say that they feel that the situation is getting better. Remember, they’re not measuring their own security in terms of numbers of U.S. casualties or numbers of bodies that were found unidentified throughout the entire capital. They are measuring their sense of whether or not things are getting better by the level of comfort with which they can leave their homes. For most Iraqis, they are still just as petrified of falling victim of sectarian violence or any other sort of attack that could take place in the capital today as they were before the surge began.
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Madame Brookings’ Boy Whores.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:29 amIraqi police, not army. The police have always been a tougher job to get going because of the infiltration from the savages. Of course the words used were “possibly as many”.
As for electricity, under Saddam’s rule (which Im sure most of you lament the loss of) power was shunted toward the Sunni areas and the Shiites barely got any. Now the grid is being run to everyone while, as with most things that were in Saddams Iraq, the equipment to generate electricity is old, worn out and ill-maintained.
Also, the economy is starting to take over, meaning people are buying things they couldnt get before, electric and electronic things which are drawing more power.
Now I know you fools would claim that a single pothole in a Baghdad road is proof that all is lost, but really, if youre going to barf this stuff out at least have the sense to understand the minutia that lies behind it.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:30 amThe pig is still undeniably a pig…and Pollack and O’Hanlon are running out of lipstick.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:31 amThis morning Washington Journal had an entire hour segment on the possibility of a win in Iraq. Don’t lose sight of the cover that this gives Hillary Clinton in the continued defense of her pro-war vote that she refuses to disavow. Soon to be bolstered by Petreus and his report on how the surge is working they’ll try to strike the final blows to Obama.
When “winning” means a generational occupation of another country by thousands of troops you have to wonder where the forward thinkers are in this country. The DNC strikes again!
July 30th, 2007 at 10:33 amWhy do these guys keep getting published in the paper of record?
July 30th, 2007 at 10:33 amyeah, i was just reading this myself and thinking, gee, how comforting it must be to be them… the rosy picture of iraq sounds so convincing… would that it was true…
And, yes, I DO take it personally
July 30th, 2007 at 10:34 amIs ANYONE going to go back over the records of their guests and confront them rather than take what they say as “fact” when it is clearly nothing more than “opinion” based on partisan wishful thinking???
What am I saying? Of course not! There’s AN ENTIRE TV NETWORK dedicated to just that philosophy of reporting: Fox.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:34 amThese boys are in need of remedial Sesame Street education.
I’ve a special secret children ought to know;
It’s about the little mistakes you make as you begin to grow.
If you make a mistake, you shouldn’t start to cry.
Mistakes are not so bad, and here is why:
Oh everyone makes mistakes.
Oh, yes they do
Your sister and your brother and your dad and mother too;
Big people, small people, matter of fact, all people!
Everyone makes mistakes, so why can’t you?
If you make a mistake while counting to ten,
Well don’t get mad and don’t be sad;
Just start to count again.
And if you should only get to eight or nine,
I’m still your friend and I still like you fine,
‘Cause everyone makes mistakes.
Oh, yes they do
Your sister and your brother and your dad and mother too;
Big people, small people, matter of fact, all people!
Everyone makes mistakes, so why can’t you?
If you spill a glass of milk all over the floor,
Well, your mom and dad still like you just as much as they did before,
‘Cause when Mother and Dad were just as small as you,
I’ll bet that they knocked their milk over too.
‘Cause everyone makes mistakes.
Oh, yes they do
Your sister and your brother and your dad and mother too;
Big people, small people, matter of fact, all people!
Everyone makes mistakes, so why can’t you?
If everyone in the whole wide world makes mistakes,
July 30th, 2007 at 10:36 amThen why can’t you?
We must blow up Iraqs infrastructure so we can spend billions rebuilding it. Its the least we can do to help the terrorists.
We should fly in another 8 billion cash and just give it away and jump start the terrorist economy.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:36 amYes, unfortunately, Pollack is the guy I listened to on Charlie Rose about ten times before the invasion of Iraq. My mistake! My Bad!
July 30th, 2007 at 10:37 amI read one report that states that 1/3 of the Iraqi people are at hope’s end and then this comes along? Somebody must be missing something.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:39 am“as with most things that were in Saddams Iraq, the equipment to generate electricity is old, worn out and ill-maintained.”
Yeah, well under the brilliant direction of this administration the “reconstruction” of Iraq is just as failed as the rest of this administrations simplistic nation building schemes. Recently the Iraqi’s in control of a recently built power plant put the wrong fuel in brand new turbines and ruined them to the tune of millions of dollars of OUR money. We are spending 200,000.00 per minute to “reconstruct” what we destroyed to hand it over to people who don’t know how to use it.
Yeah things are so much better than they were. Sell crazy somewhere else.
Insofar as lamenting the loss of Saddam, f*ck off with your retarded fortune cookie philosophy.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:39 amwere they on the same dog’n'pony show as billy kristol…
July 30th, 2007 at 10:40 am93 slain in Iraq in the last two days:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-07-30-iraq-monday_N.htm
Do you call that success? Mr. hawk from Brookings?
July 30th, 2007 at 10:43 amC’mon Dems the war should have been defunded but you are playing politics with our troops in Iraq.
Represent the people who put you in office and defund the war or are you the spineless, unprincipled sociopaths the cons say you are?
July 30th, 2007 at 10:45 amA couple of classic neoColons.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:45 amNow I know you fools would claim that a single pothole in a Baghdad road is proof that all is lost, but really, if youre going to barf this stuff out at least have the sense to understand the minutia that lies behind it. Comment by Rockefeeler
Say how is that Laura Bush Hospital going in Basra?
150% Percent over cost?
Bechtel dropped?
Why we must kill more oppressed terrorists so we can finish that hospital and make them terrorists all better with some free health care paid for by the American taxpayer.
We are the party of life after all.
I thirsty and could use some tainted water. You got Haliburtons phone number Mr Rockefeller?
Say, we should build a nuklar power plant in Iraq them being a democracy and all.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:45 am93 slain in Iraq in the last two days:
Do you call that success? Mr. hawk from Brookings?
Comment by Andrew — July 30, 2007 @ 10:43 am
That leaves only 7.999.903 Iraqis in abject poverty – real progress.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:46 amTroll,
“C’mon Dems the war should have been defunded but you are playing politics with our troops in Iraq.”
Ridiculous. It was the President that threatened to keep the troops in the desert if he didn’t get his funding. It’s the President that is playing ‘chicken’ with the lives of our armed forces.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:47 amHow long did these goons serve in the military?
Since they’re still blabbing false hope, I’d say not long enough.
They’d better serve the country KIA & Six feet under ground, pricks.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:47 amso these guys have been wrong about everything so far, and we should blindly say “oh sure everything is fine, pass the Kool-aid”?
Gimme a break
July 30th, 2007 at 10:48 amRepresent the people who put you in office and defund the war or are you the spineless, unprincipled sociopaths the cons say you are?
Comment by Troll
Hey, those Democrats voted for the use of force on that there resolution. They are no more or less spineless than my beloved GOP chickenhawks.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:49 amWow, this is creepy stuff. It’s scary knowing guys like O’Hanlon have access to CNN and the other media outlets. The think tanks, reporters, media and politicians continue to ignore the safety and security of the average American in order to bolster imperialist adventures that only benefit large multinational corporations
July 30th, 2007 at 10:49 amComment by Crump’s Brother — July 30, 2007 @ 10:47 am
Crump
July 30th, 2007 at 10:51 amAll you want to believe is that Bush and The neocons are evil and the dems are virtuous. Well grow up man. They are slime who screwed with you retards to get elected but did not do they said they would do. You make excuses for them and are as retarded as the Bushites.
Ingmar Bergman is dead
July 30th, 2007 at 10:51 amJimbo, if you want to learn more about how right-wing ideologues infiltrate the mainstream media, I recommend the book “Republican Noise Machine”, by David Brock. He tells of how the mainstream media is terrified of being called “liberal”, caving to pressure from the Limbaughs and the Murdochs, etc.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:52 amThanks for this posting. I knew there must be an alternative opinion when I read this story. TP comes through again!
July 30th, 2007 at 10:55 amHow soon these lying idiots find a friend here.
Take a look at the scum sucking ROCKFEEDER.
He’s happy enough to lie right along with them. He’s a fan.
It’s always Republican men lying with each one way or another isn’t it?
Two hours a day of electricity is not better then under Saddam and it’s not because things have worn out or because Iriaqi’s have really powerful Ipods now.
It’s because what the US did not destroy outright by bombing was allowed to be destroyed by looting. Now to follow that up with incompetent twenty somethings put in charge of reconstruction for profit with no oversight and the outcome is exactly what is to be expected. Big profits for Bushs buddies and nothing for the Iraqi’s.
Hey the economy is great in Iraq. How about a nice translator job for the rockfeeder. How long do you thinke he would last?
And Now what kind of fool could look at the death and destruction in Iraq and see a single pothole?
What kind of insane asshole could be so blind.
NO HUMAN COULD. A bottom feeding slimy thing, maybe.
Liars don’t need to see anything. They just need everone else NOT to.
Comment by Rockefeeler — July 30, 2007 @ 10:30 am
July 30th, 2007 at 10:56 amRemember. These are the serious, high-minded people who the media trusts to put the war in perspective. So what if they’re “critics” who have been everything but critical? We can’t have those out-there, wild-eyed fringe whackos and DFHs diluting the fact that we may…JUST MAY actually win this thing, as long as we have six more months.
….what? You say six months have already passed? But we just got started! Six more months, I assure you! Come back to us in six more months!
July 30th, 2007 at 10:58 amAfter Saudi Arabia, now Egypt at 13 and Israel at 30
July 30th, 2007 at 10:58 amNow I know you fools would claim that a single pothole in a Baghdad road is proof that all is lost, but really, if youre going to barf this stuff out at least have the sense to understand the minutia that lies behind it.
Comment by Rockefeeler — July 30, 2007 @ 10:30 am
Ok, your points are interesting enough. Where are your sources that show electrical output is better (just more distributed). I would like to see them. Everything I have seen shows that total output has decreased. Unemployment has risen to between 70% – 80%. Not to mention the death toll. Please provide the links or sources for me so I can take a look.
The power plant that was in my area of operations over 2 years ago is still NON-OPERATIONAL. After 4 full years of “reconstruction” we still can not provide enough water (let alone electricity). Thanks.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:00 amTroll,
“You make excuses for them and are as retarded as the Bushites.”
Does it make you feel better about yourself to call me a retard?
I agree that the Dems should have called Bush’s bluff. If he had actually left our troops out with out the equipment they need to get out safely, (something he has already done when it comes to proper equipment) then the country would have turned on him even harder, and impeachment would have been a cakewalk. But it was Bush who was making the threat to do just that.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:00 amNeocons ARE EVIL, PURE EVIL. People who vote republican are too stupid to figure that out. The most gullable voting block are neo-conservatives. They can’t think for themselves. They need someone to tell them how to think.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:01 amPollack is named in the current AIPAC spy case, enough said.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:01 amMay 2003: “major combat operations have ended”
July 2007: “we are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms.â€
July 30th, 2007 at 11:06 amNow I know you fools would claim that a single pothole in a Baghdad road is proof that all is lost, but really, if youre going to barf this stuff out at least have the sense to understand the minutia that lies behind it.
Comment by Rockefeeler — July 30, 2007 @ 10:30 am
How’s that koooool aid?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:09 amIraq’s infrastructure may be old, but those explosions going off may have had some ‘impact’ on the amount of electricity available. I bet the new embassy has electricity 24/7.
By all means, don’t listen to people who have been to Iraq and actually have information and knowledge from which to base their conclusion.
Just merely keep “parroting” the anti-American spineless radical lose-at-all costs liberal line which states we must sit back and wait to be attacked over and over and just accept it. Thankfully, even the Democrats don’t actually believe your BS. They are just far more scared of actual success than most because they have so heavily invested their political futures in defeat. Personally, I wouldn’t want to be Democratic politician on the national level these days, having to bend far left just enough to placate the vocal, kook liberal fringe, and yet not alienate the rest of regular America leaves them standing there looking like Bavarian Pretzels.
And by all means, you worthless pieces o’ crap who wish death upon our own people, please, feel free to head over to Iraq and help the poor folks out over there. Maybe seeing some of you liberals over there handing out food and other care packages while standing in the line of fire might change the rest of the countries opinion of you. If nothing else, if a stray bullet catches you off guard, and we see you being sent back home in a box, we can call it “kismet”.
Otherwise, just shut up, get out of the way, and let the professionals do their job.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:09 amWrong all the time, all the way.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:11 amOtherwise, just shut up, get out of the way, and let the professionals do their job.
heckuva job, neoColons. Only 8 million,= 1/3 of the entire population in need of emergency aid.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:11 amOnly a large ped neocolon could believe this stupifying crap.
Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.
Hate to be a naysayer, but I think morale is high because these troops are moving into and securing neighborhoods. We’ve done it before only to be called back and watch as the same area fill with insurgents. It’s like digging a hole at the beach, the sand fills back in with every wave and it’s friggin’ pointless. Morale might be high now, but ask these exact same Soldiers 3 months from now. I think their outlook might be a bit different.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:11 amChoices are 2: Occupy on a permanent basis or watch as everything you’ve worked hard for and lost buddies for falls apart.
Petraeus might be popular with the troops, but I think I heard on the radio this weekend that he’s not real popular with Maliki, their relationship is pretty tense and strained from what I heard.
TP admins, looks like another paid troll posing as a steroid pumped baseball player needs elimination from the site
July 30th, 2007 at 11:12 amMr. Higgins your fake!
July 30th, 2007 at 11:13 amPollack is named in the current AIPAC spy case, enough said.
Comment by tom — July 30, 2007 @ 11:01 am
In late August of 2005 Pollack confirmed to Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) News Service that he was one of the unnamed U.S. government officials known only as “USGO-1″; referred to in the indictment of Larry Franklin and two employees of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), filed by prosecutors as part of the AIPAC espionage scandal. He denies any wrongdoing, and has not been charged with any crimes.
From Wikipedia
The most gullable voting block are neo-conservatives. They can’t think for themselves. They need someone to tell them how to think.
Comment by RepublicansRHYPOCRITS — July 30, 2007 @ 11:01 am
The very definition of Right Wing Authoritarians. They need ‘Daddy’ to tell them what to do. Who’s your Daddy?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:14 amCan’t Find Osama?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:15 amAttack Iran Instead
These people like Pollack make a trip or two to Iraq ,less than three days total, sitting in a well guarded & protected hotel, then they come back home and speak with full authority about Iraq and Iraqis,as if they know it all.
How could they…?!
They can’t even walk in any street in Iraq, they don’t speak the language,they don’t know the culture..but they make big assessments and claims,after they come back from Iraq…
They call themselves ‘experts’,and the media treat them as such..but we heard them before the war,and we know how inaccurate they were then…
They are inaccurate also now…but the media still selling them to us as ‘experts’.
A new ‘Middle Eastern’ expert is born every day,and presented to us as such by the television networks.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:15 amPollack has been wrong before in a big way, just like most of them..but his ideas, words still sought while,regardless…
I say find someone who know something about Iraq and the Middle East(unbiased).
But the media is not there inform us.
Boy, the trolls sure are at it bright and early today. All that energy and attitude, and so little to say.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:15 amNeocons ARE EVIL, PURE EVIL. People who vote republican are too stupid to figure that out. The most gullable voting block are neo-conservatives. They can’t think for themselves. They need someone to tell them how to think.
Comment by RepublicansRHYPOCRITS
Nice strawman, but if any group is gullible it is liberals. You guys automatically dance to whatever the tune of the day is—global warming, Iraq, Bush hatred, etc.
If you think corruption only lies on one side of the aisle, you’re in for a rude awakening.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:17 amAnd by all means, you worthless pieces o’ crap who wish death upon our own people, please, feel free to head over to Iraq and help the poor folks out over there. Maybe seeing some of you liberals over there handing out food and other care packages while standing in the line of fire might change the rest of the countries opinion of you. If nothing else, if a stray bullet catches you off guard, and we see you being sent back home in a box, we can call it “kismetâ€.
Otherwise, just shut up, get out of the way, and let the professionals do their job.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 11:09 am
Excellent advice. Have you signed up yet to die a glorious death for the ‘homeland’? Uncle Sam needs you, so I’m sure you have a good reason for not going.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:17 amRemember, people, six more months! Six more mo-…
Oh, screw it. I can’t keep this up without suffering permanent brain damage. Seriously, this feels like Groundhog’s Day, we’re Bill Murray, and the ‘We’re Still Winning’ line is ‘I Got You, Babe’.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:18 amThe left-leaning Brookings Institution says that good progress is being made in Iraq. Guess that kinda hurts, huh TP? Your own think tanks are turning on you.
But I’m not worried about you. I’m sure you’ll continue to deny progress. Hey, maybe you should change the name of the web site. denyprogress.org. Kinda catchy, don’t you think?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:18 amHave you signed up yet to die a glorious death for the ‘homeland’?
Comment by funky p
Just a hunch, but I’d bet no.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:19 amFu(k you trolls who’d namejack using a dead hero’s name.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:19 amFrom a psychological perspective, the Bush/Cheney administration and its neocon allies succeeded in promoting the misguided and destructive war in Iraq by targeting our core concerns about vulnerability, injustice, distrust, superiority, and helplessness. Looking ahead, they will likely try to sell us a continuing occupation of Iraq—or an attack on Iran—in much the same way. I examine these warmongering appeals and how to counter them in a new 10-minute video entitled “Resisting the Drums of War.” It’s available for viewing on YouTube HERE.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:20 ami>Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 11:09 am
By all means, don’t listen to people who have been to Iraq and actually have information and knowledge from which to base their conclusion.
Just merely keep “parroting†the anti-American chickenhawk radical win-at-all costs neocon line which states we must fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here. Thankfully, even the Republicans don’t actually believe your BS. They are just far more scared of actual defeat than most because they have so heavily invested their political futures in victory. Personally, I wouldn’t want to be a Republican politician on the national level these days, having to bend far right just enough to placate the vocal, Fundie neocon fringe, and yet not alienate the rest of regular America leaves them standing there looking like Bavarian Pretzels.
(There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.)
July 30th, 2007 at 11:21 amthat good progress is being made in Iraq.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
Hehehe. I guess your next holidays will be spent in Baghdad.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:23 amIt seems to me that progressive blogs are being flooded with right-wing bloggers recently who are there just to irritate and throw the progressive bloggers off topic. I wonder if this is some kind of organized plan to diminish the effectiveness of the progressive blogs. The technique seem to be doing an effective job because there seems to be a lot of school yard name calling that breaks out completely destroying the train of thought that started the thread. Call them Trolls if you like, but they may be well organized Trolls with a purpose.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:24 amDon’t spin the truth, Cynicon. You should have said, “two long-time war supporters who cheered the invasion and the surge said the surge is working”. Working for Brookings doesn’t make them liberals.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:24 amMaking fun out of a dead person is the lowest demonstration of personal frustration.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:24 amThis report is good up to May 2007 and outlines the nitty gritty on Iraq. Page 39 has info on electrical generation.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:25 amThe left-leaning Brookings Institution.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 30, 2007 @ 11:18 am
An analyst said this not the Brookings institute. And I for one judge a message on its’ content more than I do on its source. that’s why postings of trolls are so easy to ignore…lack of content.
Joe Lieberman is supposed to be a Democrat/Independent.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:25 amAnd there is Zell Miller, another brain-damaged Democrat. What they say is crap, it doesn’t matter their party affiliation is.
Carmikl,
July 30th, 2007 at 11:25 amKarl Rove pays me 10,000 a week to spy on this blog!
Juan, this is obviously Mr Pee back after a fitful weekend of perpetual masturbation. Still not satisfied, the sock is getting stiffer hourly.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:26 am“heckuva job, neoColons. Only 8 million,= 1/3 of the entire population in need of emergency aid.
Only a large ped neocolon could believe this stupifying crap.
Comment by RUCerious — July 30, 2007 @ 11:11 am”
Believe what “stupid crap’? That a third of Iraq needs emergeny aid? Based on what standard? Ours? Do they need emergency aid because they don’t get electricity 24/7? What about the folks who have never had electricity in their lives? Do they need emergency aid because they aren’t getting the U.S. level of daily caloric intake? Guess what, we’re fat and they aren’t. Sounds to me like whomever came up with this statistic is merely attempting to generate class envy in Iraq just as they attempt to generate class envy in the United States. Hell, give all the Iraqis Playstation 3’s, IPODS, Blackberries, and 37″ LCD TV’s and they’ll be happy, right?
And if you believe that, what exactly are you kind hearted liberal kooks personally doing about it?
Otherwise, shut up, get out of the way, and let the professionals do their job.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:27 amthat good progress is being made in Iraq.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
Hehehe. I guess your next holidays will be spent in Baghdad.
Comment by Juan C
So what’s your point, Juan? Unless Iraq is a vacation destination, the mission has failed?
Let me know if you want to have a serious discussion — otherwise keep your childish posts to yourself.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:28 amContrary to what some trolls want to imply, Brookings receives funding from the right, too. It’s not a liberal publication. The conservative Olin Foundation gave Brookings $105,000 in 2005:
July 30th, 2007 at 11:28 amhttp://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientgrants.php?recipientID=570
You just jacked a real soldier’s name.
You a Commie and a worthless human being.
I hope you get Tillman’s fate!
Comment by Barry Bonds
Wait a second…..don’t I recall that you were gonna PROVE me a fake a week or so ago? What happened to your ‘evidence’? Didn’t pan out, huh?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:30 amI recall a couple of years ago, the right wing was all up in arms, because Baghdad was getting about 7-8 hours of electricity a day. They were yelling about how much progress Iraq was making, and as long as we stayed the course everything would be fine. Now Baghdad is down to 1-2 hours a day??? Sounds like progress to me.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:31 amRot in hell, you twisted f*ck.
Comment by Zooey
Good morning Zoo,
July 30th, 2007 at 11:33 amThis fu*kstik has been wishing death on me and name-jacked (I strongly suspect) SPC Tillman’s name above. He’s a real class-act.
Otherwise, shut up, get out of the way, and let the professionals do their job.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
When did the professionals get OBL? Guess it was more important to fabricate laughable proofs for going into Iraq so morons who cant use their thumbs say: Hell, that guy has nukelear weapons. Professionals, yes. It shows.
Unless Iraq is a vacation destination, the mission has failed?
Let me know if you want to have a serious discussion — otherwise keep your childish posts to yourself.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
Mission? Could you state without ambiguity the mission´s goals? Please, try. Now, after 5 years, and trillions of your money spent there…I would bet somebody must be fired.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:34 amContrary to what some trolls want to imply, Brookings receives funding from the right, too. It’s not a liberal publication. The conservative Olin Foundation gave Brookings $105,000 in 2005:
Comment by Andrew — July 30, 2007 @ 11:28 am
That makes the report that I reference even more poignant! It is a tale of failure.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:35 amGood morning Zoo,
This fu*kstik has been wishing death on me and name-jacked (I strongly suspect) SPC Tillman’s name above. He’s a real class-act.
Comment by SGT Higgins — July 30, 2007 @ 11:33 am
Good morning, Sarge.
I’m sorry this shit goes on here. It’s totally f*cked up.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:35 am“Carmikl,
Karl Rove pays me 10,000 a week to spy on this blog!”
Comment by Barry Bonds — July 30, 2007 @ 11:25 am
10,000 what? Peanuts?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:35 amLet me know if you want to have a serious discussion — otherwise keep your childish posts to yourself.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 30, 2007 @ 11:28 am
Otherwise, shut up, get out of the way, and let the professionals do their job.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 11:27 am
Neo con debate technique: As father Bill O’ Really would say STFU.
Please oh lords of the blogosphere, show us enlightenment, lead the way (oh wait, where did you guys go?). The recruiting office is just blocks away. Now join the professionals in the job you are too afraid to do, or get out of the way. You are obstructing progress by not pitching in yourself.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:35 amSerious discussion, if you know what that is, usually would involve facts, although opinions frequently take the place of facts in your minds. I have not been in Iraq, but perhaps Sgt. Higgins has. We all must take someone’s word for it. Unfortunately for the neo clowns, your words have proven false too much of the time.
Get some real facts you Right Wing Authoritarians.
Sounds like progress to me.
Comment by Krazny
Well sure, as long as we’re only counting progress in Kilowatts. But you’re not seeing the ‘big picture’. See, this time last year, there weren’t nearly as many American troops on the ground as there are now. Now that’s progress! (Of course these extra troops are to replace the Spanish, Korean, Japanese and any other partner in the ‘coalition of the willing’ that have decided that they are not so willing after all)
July 30th, 2007 at 11:36 amAmericans must prevail over the forces of evil in Iraq. We will prevail, because we are soldiers of Jesus, and Jesus will prevail.
We must take the oil it belongs to us we have paid for it.
When will Bush start pumping the oil, the fruits of our labors in Iraq
July 30th, 2007 at 11:37 amIf things are so great in Iraq, why not pull out like the British are doing?
July 30th, 2007 at 11:37 amIgnore the troll.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:38 amFrom the San Diego channel 10 website”:
“WASHINGTON — The latest audit report to Congress on Iraq reconstruction says corruption in the country, including fraud, theft and skimming amounts to a “second insurgency” and is hindering the rebuilding effort.
Stuart Bowen, who wrote the quarterly report, told The Associated Press that except for security, corruption is the biggest challenge for the Iraqi government to overcome.
Failure to maintain projects, once transferred to the Baghdad government, also figures in the report. As an example, an Iraqi power plant in Dora rebuilt with tens of millions of U.S. dollars fell into disrepair once transferred to the Baghdad government.
Bowen also notes bright spots like increased oil production. And Iraq is generating more electricity despite problems at the Dora plant.
Bowen said it’s still too early to say whether the rebuilding effort will produce lasting results”
July 30th, 2007 at 11:42 amso sure the egocentric Bonds would care to bloviate on this thread. Looks like Mr. P(issant) is branching out.
Where’s the medias cold hard asessment of Iraq? We don’t need anymore political slants. We need to see the detailed plan(s) and the level of completion.
Let the American people decide after being shown all.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:43 amIf things are so great in Iraq, why not pull out like the British are doing?
Comment by Zimzone
Why stay? It’s the American’s who are so friggin’ adamantly deciding to ’stay the course’. If you were British (you’re not, are you? Good.) would you want your government to ’stay the course’ after what you see in the news? Iraq is a quaqmire, and we really are caught in the middle of a civil war. That’s not defeatism, that’s honesty.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:44 amwhy not pull out like the British are doing?
Comment by Zimzone — July 30, 2007 @ 11:37 am
Even better question, zinzone… WHY are the British pulling out? I thought they were our loyal, steadfast allies. Aren’t the Tonganese and Albanians still staying? THE COALITION OF THE WILLING!!!!
July 30th, 2007 at 11:46 am“When did the professionals get OBL? Guess it was more important to fabricate laughable proofs for going into Iraq so morons who cant use their thumbs say: Hell, that guy has nukelear weapons. Professionals, yes. It shows.
Comment by Juan C — July 30, 2007 @ 11:34 am”
And when did OBL become all of Al Qaida or every terrorist’s personal leader? If you can’t figure out that we need to fight this threat from the bottom up, as well as from the top down, then you aren’t even qualified to comment on the topic. You are merely displaying your ignorance. Which, in a way, is a good thing.
We know Saddam Hussein was working on either making or acquiring nuclear weapons. That is fact. It doesn’t matter how far along he was in his plan. Hussein understood he needed nukes in order to counteract his not-so-friendly neighbor, Iran. Better to stop him now, than after he had the nukes.
Would it have been better for all of you if Iran and Iraq merely nuked each other in say 10-15 years? Would that have been better for the world? Perhaps so. It would have dealt with two problems at once, and we, literally, would only have deal with the “fallout”.
Now we only have to deal with a nuclear Iran. And if we don’t do it, I can assure you Isreal will.
It’s only a matter of time.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:49 amOtherwise, shut up, get out of the way, and let the professionals do their job.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 11:27 am
Good god, there’s not a single rational, coherent thought in this screed. KKKarl must have bought these trolls at Walmart.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:49 amOk, I am going to be cordial even though you chose to insult me. Oh, by the way, I have been there. I did not spend more than 2 weeks total in the Green Zone. I have also talked to people who have been there since and will be going again (for the 3rd time). Talk to the military service members from IVAW. Staying in the Green Zone does not qualify for being an expert on the country.
I have simply asked for facts from people posting here. If things are better, show me the facts. Show me your statistics. We have seen plenty of statistics and facts showing that the occupation in Iraq is not going well and the surge is having little effect. I am sure more than a few would be willing to post them again. Although there may be progress in one area, the declines in other areas more than negate any gains.
Go ahead, demonize me as “UnAmerican” a “traitor” or whatever makes you feel better for dismissing my concerns. Know this, I WANT YOU TO BE RIGHT, however, I know that you are not. I wish every day that I am wrong. I went to Iraq even though I didn’t believe we should have invaded. I wanted to help my country and hoped I could be part of the solution. I have said it before, and I will say it again, at every turn where we could have made a difference, the administration undermined the efforts of the troops . The troops have provided security in many areas, but the reconstruction never came – that only contributes to the hatred of American forces over there.
Go right ahead “parroting” the talking points and calling me a coward. Where were you when you went over there? Since you made it clear that if you believe in helping the Iraqis, you have to go over there to do it, I would assume that to support this war, you would also agree that you have to go over there to do it (especially when the military is hurting). I just want to know what area you were in when you fought in Iraq.
Anyway, back to my original point, please post the facts, figures, and statistics that support your optimistic view. I want to believe you, I just have a little problem believing without any information. I will assume your insults were sheer ignorance and you did not mean them.
Peace,
Dan
July 30th, 2007 at 11:50 amIt’s only a matter of time.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 11:49 am
You know he’s a man’s man, folks. Codpieces that big never lie!
July 30th, 2007 at 11:50 amGot anything real to say? Or just agitating for cheap thrills?
Comment by funky p — July 30, 2007 @ 11:46 am
You need to ask? lol
Mr. Higgins,
It’s a shame your Commie ass isn’t in Iraq.
So you could end up like your buddy Pat Tillman!
Comment by Barry Bond
Ummm Hey d!psh*t,
July 30th, 2007 at 11:51 amIf I was in Iraq, I wouldn’t end up like Pat Tillman. He was killed in Afghanistan. As for him being my ‘buddy’…. I would have been honored to have ever met him.
Baseball is boring beyond belief. No one cares Barry
July 30th, 2007 at 11:52 am#36,
Too retarded for words
July 30th, 2007 at 11:55 amAnd if we don’t do it, I can assure you Isreal will.
It’s only a matter of time.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
Israel is in the middle of a internal crisis produced by the Lebanon´s fiasco of trying to get back their kidnapped soldiers (I guess those soldieres were really important because they kept looking for them…or not?) So, I wouldnt put my money on Israel attacking Iran. I guess US will bomb Iran but will not invade it…US knows it is suicide and no benefits.
Now, going back to Saddam. The worst of Saddam´s crimes occur in 1988 when he gassed Kurds, what did Reagan´s govt say about it? mmm… US knew that Saddam posed no threat at all. Thats the way with every totalitarian regime like US, China and Russia. They wont engage another state with NUKES, no matter what. Why US didnt attack North Korea? Better yet, if US is really worried about dictators all around the world, guess they miss the 2nd greatest country in the world and one of the worst countries when it comes to human rights: China. Give it a shot at China, Bigfoot. Lets see how that goes. Hypocresy. Just that.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:57 amBaseball is boring beyond belief. No one cares Barry
Comment by dbadass
Don’t make me come over there and kick your butt. Baseball is NOT boring.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:57 amThanks for the post DanVaveman as well as your service. I agree. I want to see facts. I’d also like to see the other side finally push for what the fear they spout is calling for. A draft. If the menace is so great, we need to combat it only with total domination of all things scary. But yet when the draft is discussed it’s put off as not needed.
I wonder what the real Bonds would think about someone here spouting unpatriotic blather in his name? He’s such an understanding person.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:59 amComment by Texas Democrat — July 30, 2007 @ 11:55 am
You serve a better purpose in life when you’re sucking Muslims.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:59 amBaseball is NOT boring.
Comment by gummitch
Come on… chewing tobacco for 3 hours is not fun.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:00 pmWe know Saddam Hussein was working on either making or acquiring nuclear weapons. That is fact. It doesn’t matter how far along he was in his plan. Hussein understood he needed nukes in order to counteract his not-so-friendly neighbor, Iran. Better to stop him now, than after he had the nukes.
Would it have been better for all of you if Iran and Iraq merely nuked each other in say 10-15 years? Would that have been better for the world? Perhaps so. It would have dealt with two problems at once, and we, literally, would only have deal with the “falloutâ€.
Now we only have to deal with a nuclear Iran. And if we don’t do it, I can assure you Isreal will.
It’s only a matter of time.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 11:49 am
Liar. All lies, all the time. I’m ashamed that there are American citizens as uninformed and easily duped as you, bigfoot. Not a shred of fact or proof in all of your allegations. i can’t wait until ‘08 when you jerkoffs are completely powerless to keep raping Iraq and the USA. In the meantime, keep on lying, it’s all you’re good for and all you’re good at.
Traitor pig.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:00 pmUncle Sam needs you, so I’m sure you have a good reason for not going.
Comment by funky p — July 30, 2007 @ 11:17 am
Most likely some sort of embarrassing medical condition he’d prefer not to discuss in public.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:00 pmIf you can’t figure out that we need to fight this threat from the bottom up, as well as from the top down, then you aren’t even qualified to comment on the topic. You are merely displaying your ignorance. Which, in a way, is a good thing.
We know Saddam Hussein was working on either making or acquiring nuclear weapons. That is fact. It doesn’t matter how far along he was in his plan. Hussein understood he needed nukes in order to counteract his not-so-friendly neighbor, Iran. Better to stop him now, than after he had the nukes.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 11:49 am
Oh confused one, your second paragraph from the quotes above, contradicts your first. You have thus proven yourself either too biased, or too uninformed to argue your own points. Any nuclear program Iraq had was long before dismantled. Scott Ritter said so, he was there as a weapons inspector, and you were not. He was right (proven many times over in fact) and you were/are wrong. There is just no factual basis for your statement, so I can only hope that you read a little into the subject before making a fool of your self. Again.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:00 pmMeanwhile, what about that recruiting office. What, are you afraid?
Don’t make me come over there and kick your butt. Baseball is NOT boring.
Comment by gummitch — July 30, 2007 @ 11:57 am
To each their own. As to Barry my quess is we are in agreement. Why can’t they say someone is batting 50%? Do they inflate the numbers to overcome the assoication with school percentage grades or is there some other reason? Never ever ever take a ‘lude and go to a baseball game….
July 30th, 2007 at 12:01 pmYou serve a better purpose in life when you’re sucking Muslims.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 30, 2007 @ 11:59 am
You serve no purpose in life when you’re creating terorists by using terrorism. You’re a waste of carbon, like all chickenhawks. Coward.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:02 pmComment by DanCaveman — July 30, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Dan; Thank you for your service, and your honesty. I sense you know lots more about what’s going on than ANY troll who is too afraid to back up their hollow talk with action. You have exposed them for the cowards they are, and shown the hero that you are.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:03 pmYou serve a better purpose in life when you’re sucking Muslims.
Comment by CT Scantonocity
Yep, TRoS, Wal-mart… no doubt.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:03 pmMeanwhile, what about that recruiting office. What, are you afraid?
Comment by funky p — July 30, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
See my comment above yours for the reason.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:05 pmComment by TripMaster Monkey — July 30, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Mr. Monkey continues…..
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:05 pmThere’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
Yep, TRoS, Wal-mart… no doubt.
Comment by Juan C — July 30, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
Well, that’s just like the righties, they even lowball this – the cheaper the better!!! And the quality just… oozes… and dribbles… out of every post.
You get what you pay for!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:07 pmThere’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
There’s acertain, “masturbatory” quality to CT’s post, isn’t there?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:08 pmAnbar Province is almost 100% Sunni so the Civil War isn’t really a factor. It may be one of the only places in Iraq where the war is against al-Qaeda so it could be considered a success. The law of unintended consequences is likely to catch up with us there though. We appear to have taken sides with the Sunnis, and maybe we have. That’s not going to sit well elsewhere. Maliki and the other Shiite leaders certainly don’t like it.
When the so called “Surge” started the Shiite militias could afford to lie low because we were doing their job for them, namely fighting and killing Sunnis. Our new tactic of allying ourselves with Sunnis is likely to reenergize the Shiite militias and drive them closer to Iran.
Al-Qaeda has never been the biggest threat to peace in Iraq, so we could completely eliminate al-Qaeda and Iraq would still be far from at peace. Left to their own devices, the Iraqis would probably eliminate al-Qaeda on their own. The Kurds don’t want them. The Shiites have been fighting them from the beginning. Now the Sunnis are turning against them. Al-Qaeda in Iraq is probably toast, but that’s not the end of our problems.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:08 pmComment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
Supporting Muslims…the left can’t get any lower than this.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:09 pm“It seems to me that progressive blogs are being flooded with right-wing bloggers recently who are there just to irritate and throw the progressive bloggers off topic. I wonder if this is some kind of organized plan to diminish the effectiveness of the progressive blogs. The technique seem to be doing an effective job because there seems to be a lot of school yard name calling that breaks out completely destroying the train of thought that started the thread. Call them Trolls if you like, but they may be well organized Trolls with a purpose.
Comment by Carmikl — July 30, 2007 @ 11:24 am”
No one’s contacted me to be any part of an “organized plan”, but I would be happy to participate if asked.
My take on this “flood” is that people are starting to figure out where all this anti-American crap is going on, and are starting to seek out and inject their opinions with the idea that the liberal kook fringe cannot continue to assume they have power they actually do not have.
There is no monolithic pro-impeachment, anti-Bush, hate movement. It’s all a farce foisted on the American public by a vocal, radical, few. It’s getting a lot of press (mostly bad because of the raw hatred expressed) because it’s a relatively new phenomenon, but will soon fade away into the background noise of political discourse, right where it belongs.
There’s nothing new about radical, kook conspiracy theories which attempt to illustrate how the Constitution is being subverted by our own government, and how our country is run by the corporations, for the corporations, with Presidents and others in political power merely their hand-picked minions. This is really all old news. It’s just that all of this “information” and “knowledge” used to have to be spread through various local meetings and printed newsletters which relied on the then-current power of “snail mail”. I know, I used to go to some of these meetings, and I used to recieve the newsletters. Hell, I even worked as a fundraiser for a “progressive” political action commitee in Indiana for a time. (Yes, there were folks who called themselves “progressive” before there was an internet!)
Same poppycock, different era.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:09 pmThere’s acertain, “masturbatory†quality to CT’s post, isn’t there?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Mostly imaginary, being ball-less, as all of these chickenhawk cowards are. imagine worshipping a coke-addled deserter like Bush, and you can see why their all such zeroes.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:09 pmThere’s acertain, “masturbatory†quality to CT’s post, isn’t there?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
As per usual….
July 30th, 2007 at 12:10 pmComment by CT Scantonocity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
TP, can we have another troll over here, please? This one appears to be stuck in an infinite STUPID loop.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:11 pmBack to the subject at hand;O’Hanlon wrote an article recently that, while he noted some progress, gives his assessment of what has not gone right. Here’s a quote from Michael O’Hanlon from June 10, 2007:
Alas, bad news still dominates. Overall levels of violence remain very high by the standards of other countries suffering from civil conflicts, and also in comparison with the Iraq of 2003 through 2005. Bombings by Sunni insurgents and Qaeda terrorists remain prevalent enough that the current restraint being exercised by most Shiite militias will be difficult to sustain. Cities like Kirkuk and Mosul remain tinderboxes. The economy remains stagnant and utility performance abysmal.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:12 pmAnd, perhaps worst of all, the Iraqi political system has failed to deliver any real progress on the core issues dividing Sunni from Shiite from Kurd, without which there will be no lasting peace.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Yeah, the fake intellectual, Mr. Monkey, sure enjoys repeating that line. Selective responding and evasion of debate, that’s the monkey’s way of life.
Mr. Monkey is tripping on his own banana peels.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:12 pmsure, bigfoot, that’s why 68% of the American people want Bush-Cheney impeached, because they’re just a few “liberal kooks”. that’s why ‘06 was such a huge victory for you, and why Bushco has to do everything in secret. You aqre one ignorant hick, with no regard for America or Americans. You’re part of the 20% fringe moron group that still believes what a born liar says, even though he deserted in wartime. See what happens during the ‘08 elections, as the 68% fringe destroys the Republican party for all time, and saves the world from your ignorance and bloodlust.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:13 pmHow long is TP going to leave up the troll mocking Fallen Soldier Pat Tillman?
These neocon scumbag trolls have no honor at all.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:15 pmOverall levels of violence remain very high by the standards of other countries suffering from civil conflicts, —–Hmmmm, wonder why that could be.
1. Sunni insurgents and
2. Qaeda terrorists
3. Shiite militias
4. A coalition of the willing.
Man, that sure is a lot of players. No wonder violence is higher as compared to other countries.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:15 pmCT Scantonocity sez:
Let me know when you actually have a debate to present, chippy, and I’ll be happy to respond to you.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:15 pmmmmm…still no facts from any of the trolls here.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:16 pmHow long is TP going to leave up the troll mocking Fallen Soldier Pat Tillman?
These neocon scumbag trolls have no honor at all.
Comment by Wayne — July 30, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Wayne,
They have been reported. Still waiting…
July 30th, 2007 at 12:17 pmWayne sez:
Until he mentions 9/11 or badmouths Israel. Those are the only real reasons posts get yanked here.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:17 pmThese neocon scumbag trolls have no honor at all.
Comment by Wayne — July 30, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Right, and my comment over at the Karl Rove payraise thread just got vapped. Admittedly, it was tasteless, and crude, and involved sexual innuendo about Karl and certain visitors to the WH who shall go unnamed, BUT I didn’t mock a dead soldier.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:17 pmTP, can we have another troll over here, please? This one appears to be stuck in an infinite STUPID loop.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — July 30, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
…coming from the monkey who’s only good for using the bold/italic features excessively, it seems.
And why, Mr. Monkey, would TP care to help you? You are, after all, banned, and you ignored TP’s will and changed your IP address. So the irony is, you’re an unwelcome guest while this “troll” technically isn’t.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:18 pmmmmm…still no facts from any of the trolls here.
Comment by Juan C — July 30, 2007 @ 12:16 pm
Trolls can only exist in fact-free zones.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:18 pmFacts would just slow down the hurling of insults.
SGT Higgins, don’t forget the mounting tensions between the Kurds and Turkey.
Fools rush in…………..
July 30th, 2007 at 12:20 pmThey have been reported. Still waiting…
Comment by Zooey — July 30, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
I reported them on Saturday. Nothing. No reply to my e-mail or anything. Starting to have serious doubts about the folks running this site.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:20 pmComment by The Republic of Stupidity
Don’t take it personally, I got zapped too. I think the thread changed after it was up. It was weird.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:20 pmMan, that sure is a lot of players. No wonder violence is higher as compared to other countries.
Comment by SGT Higgins — July 30, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
You also left out Blackwater and the oil companies, SGT.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:21 pmI reported them on Saturday. Nothing. No reply to my e-mail or anything. Starting to have serious doubts about the folks running this site.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:20 pm
If we don’t see any results soon, I’ll send them directly to Faiz. I’m sure he’ll be thrilled.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:21 pm#123 — good post, Bigfoot. What’s interesting is the amount of influence they have on the Dem party. They have been successful in getting the Dem leadership to attack Bush to a point, but the attacks seem to be stopping short of impeachment. As well as stopping short of defunding the war.
Dems are trying to play these folks along without really doing what groups like TP want them to do. The Dems throw them bones with these silly investigations that never really go anywhere (the Scooter Libby conviction was a complete joke). But I think the folks here are starting to realize that they are being played for chumps.
Should be interesting to see what happens next!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:21 pmWhat’s one great thing about the trolls is that true bloggers here are honing their message and gaining great resources (i.e. facts) from other posters.
The trolls are pimples on lady liberty’s a$$.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:22 pmCT Scantonocity sez:
It was a joke, dolt…which was, quite predictably, lost on you.
What’s your point?
Yes, that is ironic, isn’t it? TP welcomes yammering, hate-filled idiots like yourself, while it attempts to silence me. Intriguing.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:22 pmDon’t take it personally, I got zapped too. I think the thread changed after it was up. It was weird.
Comment by SGT Higgins — July 30, 2007 @ 12:20 pm
Admittedly, what I said was tasteless… I know, I have a problem.
Hangs head… **sighs** But I’m working on it. I can change, no really!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:23 pmThe only way to see if Iraq is making any REAL progress towards political reconciliation is when W flies into Iraq-with more than a 5 minute “heads up” to the Iraqi leadership-and delivers a speech in the Iraq Parliament
Until car and suicide bombings drop to ZERO, until electricity for Baghdad is back to pre-invasion levels, until basic services like security, sanitation and health care are brought back to pre-invasion levels as well, then there’s NO real progress in Iraq
Now, you “dead-ender” trolls, prove everyone wrong by going to Iraq and wandering around outside the Green Zone just like the average Iraqis have to, lightly armed with no bodyguards
If you’re not willing to back up your rhetoric with real actions, then you brain-dead W sheeple are nothing but the most easily-debunked of claptrap-bleating hypocrites
Oh, and your blather here on these blogs, won’t do anything to bring the clearly-lost Iraq occupation any closer to “victory”, a “victory” your Glorious Leader W can’t even articulate
When the message goes from “We will stay the course until unconditional victory” to “the consequences of leaving will be disastrous”, it’s obvious even this Administration has given up on anything except passing yet another of W’s own messes onto someone else to clean up
Iraq’s a clearly lost cause, so we can begin withdrawing our forces now, or we can do it by helicopters via Green Zone rooftops, but we WILL be exiting Iraq in shame and total humiliation, as the Iraqis don’t seem more predisposed to letting the US maintain a permanent presence on their soil than the Vietnamese were
July 30th, 2007 at 12:23 pmSGT Higgins, don’t forget the mounting tensions between the Kurds and Turkey.
Fools rush in…………..
Comment by hellinabucket
Right? And they appear to be ‘experts’ for saying that Gee, Iraq has more violence than most nations.
So, if I say “Hey, what do ya know, water is wet.” Do i get to be declared an expert? Somebody please say yes…I’ve always wanted to be an expert.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:23 pmRight, and my comment over at the Karl Rove payraise thread just got vapped. Admittedly, it was tasteless, and crude, and involved sexual innuendo about Karl and certain visitors to the WH who shall go unnamed, BUT I didn’t mock a dead soldier.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Don’t mention **Pelosi** and her table, it will get zapped even quicker, but trolls mocking fallen Soldiers stay up all day, usually.
Pathetic.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:23 pmThe Republic of Stupidity sez:
Starting?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:24 pmI’m pointing out that you had a debate with ‘O.Bigfoot,’ only to arrogantly proclaim, “There’s more to your post, but it’s not worth responding to.”
Of course, you can run away knowing that your fellow lefties wouldn’t dare call you out. Glad it makes you feel so warm and toasty inside.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:24 pmI can change, no really!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
You do, and I’ll never talk to you again….well maybe just to egg you on, but that’s about it. lol
July 30th, 2007 at 12:24 pmYou also left out Blackwater and the oil companies, SGT.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
And Shiite Death squads of Negroponte.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:25 pm#151 is for TripSurrender Monkey (the ‘ace’ humper)
July 30th, 2007 at 12:25 pm“Oh confused one, your second paragraph from the quotes above, contradicts your first. You have thus proven yourself either too biased, or too uninformed to argue your own points. Any nuclear program Iraq had was long before dismantled. Scott Ritter said so, he was there as a weapons inspector, and you were not. He was right (proven many times over in fact) and you were/are wrong. There is just no factual basis for your statement, so I can only hope that you read a little into the subject before making a fool of your self. Again.
Meanwhile, what about that recruiting office. What, are you afraid?
Comment by funky p — July 30, 2007 @ 12:00 pm”
Sorry, funky p. No contradiction. Both situations are absolutely correct. And the fact that we were able to derail Hussein and fight Al-Qaeda right there in one place is a mastersroke of military planning. There have been no further terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. Prove to me that the long term plan is not working.
Furthermore, you choose to disregard current information from Ken Pollack and Micheal O’Hanlon, who have been there, which disagrees with your pre-concieved notion of how things are in Iraq.
I will take the same tack and choose to disregard Scott Ritter’s assessment of Saddam Hussein’s nuclear plan.
If Saddam Hussein knew he was about the get his ass kicked, then why did he fight further inspection and fail to open his country to full disclosure, ignoring one U.N. resolution after another? It cost him his power, and in the end, his life. All it would have taken for a different outcome for Saddam Hussein was for him to “come clean” on what was going on behind closed doors. An honest man has nothing to fear, and nothing to hide.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:25 pm#143 – you as well as Bigfoot may respond to my post so we can have a productive debate any time.
I don’t want to impeach Bush because I hate him. I want to do it to protect this country that is in more danger from within than any other threat.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:25 pmThere is no monolithic pro-impeachment, anti-Bush, hate movement.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
Finally, a factual statement. The nearly 50% of Americans favoring Bush’s impeachment is a grass roots movement. Ditto the 54% and
growing, who want Cheney impeached. But, at least you got one sentence of factual material.
There’s nothing new about radical, kook conspiracy theories which attempt to illustrate how the Constitution is being subverted by our own government, and how our country is run by the corporations, for the corporations, with Presidents and others in political power merely their hand-picked minions. This is really all old news.
Again, you are accidentally correct. Amazing. Yes, the corporate takeover of America is old news.
One ‘kook’ theory, actually a fact, is that the Bush administration, in defiance of that ‘piece of paper’ the Constitution, spyed on American citizens. Even with them loose constraints of the FISA court, they chose illegal surveillance activities. It’s enough to make one think they were doing things they did not want us to know about.
‘Kook”? How about executive order of July 17 2007:
Section 1. (a) Except to the extent provided in section 203(b)(1), (3), and (4) of IEEPA (50 U.S.C. 1702(b)(1), (3), and (4)), or in regulations, orders, directives, or licenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstanding any contract entered into or any license or permit granted prior to the date of this order, all property and interests in property of the following persons, that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United States persons, are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in: any person determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense,
(i) to have committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing, an act or acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of:
(A) threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of Iraq; or
(B) undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people;
(ii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or services in support of, such an act or acts of violence or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; or
(iii) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order.
(b) The prohibitions in subsection (a) of this section include, but are not limited to, (i) the making of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services by, to, or for the benefit of any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order, and (ii) the receipt of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services from any such person.
Sec. 2. (a) Any transaction by a United States person or within the United States that evades or avoids, has the purpose of evading or avoiding, or attempts to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
(b) Any conspiracy formed to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
This boils down to: if you oppose our policies in Iraq, we can take your stuff.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:27 pmWithout anything more than the say so of the Secretary of the Treasury = Bush.
Kooky conspiracy, or Government policy?
So, if I say “Hey, what do ya know, water is wet.†Do i get to be declared an expert? Somebody please say yes…I’ve always wanted to be an expert.
Comment by SGT Higgins — July 30, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
EXPERT!!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:28 pmShould be interesting to see what happens next!
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 30, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
Especially after the WH wouldn’t send anyone to Faux Snooze, of all places, to defend Gonzo publicly yesterday.
If all these investigations are meaningless, why did poor Scooter get convicted? A judge appointed by Bru$ch himself found Scoter’s conduct outrageous.
And if there’s nothing behind the attorneys mess, I guess poor little Monica just panicked when she resigned so quickly and took the 5th.
Yep, when life-long righties like Bruce Fein and Lamarr Odom start calling for impeachment, they must have benn corrupted by far-left smear sites like TP! Damn, we’r good!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:28 pmAnd the fact that we were able to derail Hussein and fight Al-Qaeda right there in one place is a mastersroke of military planning
The fact that you can look at Iraq and call it a ‘masterstroke of military planning’ shows that you have taken a rather big draught from the keg o’ kool aid.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:29 pmCT Idiocity sez:
Well, if it makes you feel better, CT, you’re not worth responding to, either.
Come back when you have something worth addressing.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:30 pmAn honest man has nothing to fear, and nothing to hide.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
Why did Monica Goodling take the 5th?
Why is the WH claiming EP over the Tillman case?
This is YOUR chance to shine, Big Fella! Answers please!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:30 pmI don’t want to impeach Bush because I hate him. I want to do it to protect this country that is in more danger from within than any other threat.
Comment by DanCaveman — July 30, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
Exactly!
Well said, DanC.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:30 pm#155 – You still haven’t responded to me – I have been there (and I believe SGT Higgens has been too.
By the way….I have another question. We have not been hit by a devastating meteor since 2003 either. Does that mean that the war in Iraq has protected us from meteors? Oh yea, there were no attacks on US Soil from 2001 – 2003 (before we invaded Iraq) – Oh yea, there were no attacks on US soil from 1993 – 2001 (mmmm….8 years) AND we didn’t lose ~4000 American troops and wound 10s of thousands more. Yeah, things are much better.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:31 pmEXPERT!!
Comment by Z
WOO HOO!!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:32 pmIt was a joke, dolt…which was, quite predictably, lost on you.
Hmmm…are you one of the final 10 on “Last Comic Standing?” Why, your material is so funny it’s serious, I suppose.
What’s your point?
The point is that you are effectively the unwelcome troll. TP probably banned you for something legit, perhaps in regards to the copy-and-paste, emailing, or whatever of ace’s posts.
Yes, that is ironic, isn’t it? TP welcomes yammering, hate-filled idiots like yourself, while it attempts to silence me. Intriguing.
So….where’s the hate? Hating what only a lefty could like? The small group of you slimy morons?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:34 pmJust a sec, Sarge.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:35 pmIn order for you to be proclaimed an EXPERT on water, you have to give us the molecular formula for it as well. And the boiling point at sea level….
#155 – You still haven’t responded to me – I have been there (and I believe SGT Higgens has been too. ——— he has. Iraq from Mar 03 – Feb ‘04.
Does that mean that the war in Iraq has protected us from meteors? —— lol Just keep feeding him furure talking points. lol
Comment by DanCaveman
July 30th, 2007 at 12:35 pmO. Bigfoot sez:
Given this, could you explain to the class why when Chimpy met with the 9/11 panel, he a) refused to testify under oath, b) refused to testify without Deadeye present, c) refused to testify in public, and d) refused to allow any recording or transcript to be made of the proceedings?
According to your statement, these do not sound like the actions of an honest man. Can you explain this?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:36 pmDamn, bigfoot(in the mouth). funky p. just shot you down using facts and then (I know it’s going to be hard to understand) funky p. backed it up with the documentation.
I’m sure your “Oh yeah, sez you” comeback is going to be just as filled with the type of support that would add credence to your argument. Right?
I have to ask mr. bigfoot. How can you say the military planning for invading Iraq and attacking AQ in Iraq was master planning when there wasn’t any AQ in Iraq at the time. You also neglect to show the actual “plans” as well. That would fall into the catagory of “FACTS”. Something you lack.
But I’m sure you’ll get a libtard or commie in there. mr. bigfoot.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:36 pmSorry, I haven’t read the entire thread yet.
I have written to Think Progress about the comments of “Barry Bonds” and also about the person posting under the name of “Pat Tillman”, and have asked that the person posting under Tillman’s name be banned.
I would encourage others to do write to TP as well.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:37 pmProve to me that the long term plan is not working.
Furthermore, you choose to disregard current information from Ken
Pollack and Micheal O’Hanlon, who have been there, which disagrees with your pre-concieved notion of how things are in Iraq.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
Perhaps you missed my quote earlier from O’Hanlon. Is June 10 not recent enough for you?
And you are comparing the experiences of two suit wearing analysts sheltered in the green zone, with an ex-marine who traveled the whole country looking for WMDs for years. Now who has a better sense for what is going on? How can you equate the two?
Here’s O’Hanlon, again:
Alas, bad news still dominates. Overall levels of violence remain very high by the standards of other countries suffering from civil conflicts, and also in comparison with the Iraq of 2003 through 2005. Bombings by Sunni insurgents and Qaeda terrorists remain prevalent enough that the current restraint being exercised by most Shiite militias will be difficult to sustain. Cities like Kirkuk and Mosul remain tinderboxes. The economy remains stagnant and utility performance abysmal.
And, perhaps worst of all, the Iraqi political system has failed to deliver any real progress on the core issues dividing Sunni from Shiite from Kurd, without which there will be no lasting peace.
And another outright falsehood. Are you reading GW Bush’s intelligence manual? Saddam did not prohibit inspectors or inspections. Bush withdrew the inspectors before the bombing campaign. This is FACT; look it up, and stop parroting Bush. You make yourself look uninformed; a Fox viewer no doubt!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:38 pmI hated Bush for years before I ever called for his impeachment.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:39 pmComment by TripMaster Monkey — July 30, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
Another non-response from ‘ace’-humper who’s only attempting to sound intelligent. Have any more self-compliments, Mr. Monkey?
I knew you were a self-contradicting specimen, a banned one at that.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:39 pmInteresting…two of my posts here have been “disappeared”.
What did the two posts have in common?
They featured the number nine, followed by a slash, followed by the number eleven.
Isn’t that interesting?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:40 pmJust a sec, Sarge.
In order for you to be proclaimed an EXPERT on water, you have to give us the molecular formula for it as well. And the boiling point at sea level….
Comment by RUCerious
2 Hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:40 pm212 degrees fahrenheit
I would encourage others to do write to TP as well.
Comment by Egreggious — July 30, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
Thanks, Egg. I do so as well. Maybe your request will nudge them into doing something….
July 30th, 2007 at 12:41 pm…and now both the “disappeared” posts are back.
That is just plain weird. Two minutes ago, a search for the phrase “9/11″ on this page returned no results. I’ve seen my posts disappear and reappear before, but never two at once. Hmm…
July 30th, 2007 at 12:42 pm2 Hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom.
212 degrees fahrenheit
Comment by SGT Higgins (sorta almost Expert) — July 30, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
I think we’ve got ourselves an expert!! What say you, RUC?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:43 pmAre those two GOPers going to join the military to go fight in Iraq? If not then they need to shut their yappers > PERIOD.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:43 pmWhat say you, RUC?
Comment by Zooey
Oh C’mon RUC, don’t leave me hangin’
July 30th, 2007 at 12:45 pmTripSurrender Monkey’s dissertation:
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
There’s more to your post, but it’s not even worth replying to.
Congratulations, Mr. Monkey! You have been awarded your PhD., and have been appointed an Assistant Professor of Elusive Debate at the University of Monkey Town.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:45 pmExpert? Why he’s a Gotdam genius!!!!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:46 pmCT scatologist is drinking again. tsk, tsk, tsk.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:47 pmComment by CT Scantonocity — July 30, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
Way to stay on topic!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:47 pmExpert? Why he’s a Gotdam genius!!!!
Comment by hellinabucket
Do I have to choose?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:48 pmComment by hellinabucket — July 30, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
Greetings, Mr. Bucket. I hope you’re having a good day.
Good blessings to you.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:49 pmComment by funky p — July 30, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
Thanks! I always appreciate a nice comment!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:50 pmfunky p sez:
CT is just miffed because he’s incapable of participating in a rational discussion, and he doesn’t like it when I point out that little shortcoming. Ignore him long enough and he should go away.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:51 pmOk, Sarge, yu da expert!
July 30th, 2007 at 12:53 pmOn this 30th day of July, in the year 2007, we hereby appoint Sgt Higgins as the WATER EXPERT, along with all rights and privileges accordant with said status!~
“#155 – You still haven’t responded to me – I have been there (and I believe SGT Higgens has been too.
By the way….I have another question. We have not been hit by a devastating meteor since 2003 either. Does that mean that the war in Iraq has protected us from meteors? Oh yea, there were no attacks on US Soil from 2001 – 2003 (before we invaded Iraq) – Oh yea, there were no attacks on US soil from 1993 – 2001 (mmmm….8 years) AND we didn’t lose ~4000 American troops and wound 10s of thousands more. Yeah, things are much better.
Comment by DanCaveman — July 30, 2007 @ 12:31 pm”
What you say about the time periods between attacks on U.S. soil is correct. My point is this: It’s difficult to prove a negative (if I am stating that correctly). It is hard to prove, one way or the other, whether the U.S. policy in the middle east has been effective against attacks on U.S. soil or not. But I am not about to unilaterally discount it. There were plenty of terrorist attacks on the U.S. NOT on U.S. soil during those time periods.
At the same time, for the United States to sit around and wait for more attacks here, and to ignore attacks on U.S. interests overseas, rather than attempt a long term solution, would be folly. Middle eastern terrorists have proven they have the power and will to reach out and touch us. I don’t believe it was in our best interests to do absolutely nothing.
Perhaps the U.S. misjudged the Iraqi people in that they havn’t risen up in unison to stand with us. But plenty of them have. We can argue the reasons for the Iraq invasion over and over, ad nauseum, but the fact is, we are there, we cannot simply leave them to kill each other now. There needs to be an effective long term strategy to stabilize the nation. Unilateral pull-out is not going to work, neither is it going to happen. The Democrats have failed to present a workable alternative solution, and the Republicans, frankly, havn’t either. Personally, I don’t believe any politicians have the knowledge or experience to handle the situation. We should be getting out of the military’s way and allowing them to do their work, rather than sniping at them peacemeal and undermining their efforts.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pmCT_V1 Scantonocity,
Care to discuss the topic of the actual thread?
I’ll give you a little hint:
O’Hanlon and Pollack bill themselves “as two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq.†The op-ed contains “no mention anywhere of the fact that both men very prominently backed the initial invasion and the ’surge.’â€
take your time…I’ll wait
July 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pmOn this 30th day of July, in the year 2007, we hereby appoint Sgt Higgins as the WATER EXPERT, along with all rights and privileges accordant with said status!~
Comment by RUCerious
It’s official!
p.s. there’s a ’status’? that is so cool.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pmAny questions relating to water, just direct ‘em my way.
What about the fact that no elephant rampages have been reported in Wyoming or Oklahoma during Bush’s tenure??
July 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pmWell that looks official. SGT. Higgins is an EXPERT.
Good day to you too CT. Try to stay focused. I know you have points you may want to convey. Use facts with them and you might have a rational debate here.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:00 pmMr. Monkey talkz:
CT is just miffed because he’s incapable of participating in a rational discussion, and he doesn’t like it when I point out that little shortcoming. Ignore him long enough and he should go away.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — July 30, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
Except, Mr. Monkey, that you weren’t originally pointing out any “shortcoming” on this particular thread. In fact, I was in regards to your hollow blabbering and evasive conversation with ‘O. Bigfoot.’ Adhere to your “high” standards, Mr. Monkey. Do as you’ll say.
I’m sorry you fail to get the gist of anything. Typical lefty stance: “I’m the victim. Wah! Wah! Wah!.” You lefties make real victims look really bad.
You are banned, Mr. Monkey, for infractions. TP wants you gone. Please concur with their wishes.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:01 pmIf all these investigations are meaningless, why did poor Scooter get convicted?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
He got convicted of lying about a non-crime. He was guilty the same way Clinton was guilty.
My point about it being meaningless is that it doesn’t prove that the Bush admin. is corrupt any more than the current investigations do. And it certainly doesn’t advance the Dem agenda at all.
The Dems should be careful. Launching dozens of investigations on any admin. will reveal political manuevers like the firing of the attorneys general. Do they really want to set the precedent that endless investigations are job #1 of the majority party when the opposite party is in the WH? What about 2010 if Hillary is prez and the Repubs come back into the majority? OK to launch 20 investigations on the actions of her admin?
This stuff is politics at its worst.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:02 pmp.s. there’s a ’status’? that is so cool.
Any questions relating to water, just direct ‘em my way.
Comment by SGT Higgins (H20 Expert) — July 30, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Do I really have to drink 8 glasses of water a day? I mean, c’mon….
July 30th, 2007 at 1:02 pmMiddle eastern terrorists have proven they have the power and will to reach out and touch us. I don’t believe it was in our best interests to do absolutely nothing.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
I am not going to disagree with you on this point, however this war is not one to be fought with set piece military tactics like we did in WWII. This is better fought through a combination of police work, and special force, and quick surgical strikes. Setting 150,000 troops into the middle of Iraq is a lousy way to fight an enemy we seem to barely be able to locate.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:02 pmWhat about the fact that no elephant rampages have been reported in Wyoming or Oklahoma during Bush’s tenure??
Comment by RUCerious
Or the fact (well, a strong hunch anyway) that no elephants have been hit by meteors in the same period?
July 30th, 2007 at 1:03 pmWTF is going on here?
I’ve been gone to a business conference in Boston the last 5 days, and now we have posters “posing” as dead American heroes? and that’s accepted here?
and my rebuttal of a troll who has derailed the thread, to get it back on topic, is deleted????
again, TP…
July 30th, 2007 at 1:03 pmWTF???????????????????????
Comment by hellinabucket — July 30, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
Sure! Michael O’Hanlon seems like a good, give-the-benefit-of-the-doubt kinda guy. He doesn’t seem to be your typical neo-con.
Why the fuss from TP?
July 30th, 2007 at 1:05 pmO. Bigfoot your last post shows some movement and understanding. There can and will be differences but there should be no question of patriotism.
One of the larger misses by this administration was that they just expected a people to “rise up” when freed. This region has been dictated to for centuries and the people didn’t readily understand the concept of self government. Our government was too obstinate to see that and the blunders that followed (i.e. the dissmantling of the military and out of country subcontractors to name two) have put Iraq into a downward spiral.
There is no doubt that plans have to change once getting into the details but there was never a concrete plan to begin with.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:05 pm“What about the fact that no elephant rampages have been reported in Wyoming or Oklahoma during Bush’s tenure??
Comment by RUCerious — July 30, 2007 @ 12:58 pm”
I attribute that to our aboriginal forefathers, who had the foresight to drive the elephants into extinction on what would someday be U.S. soil.
Perhaps this is lesson for today: We drive Al Qaeda and the rest of middle eastern Muslim terrorism into extinction today, so our descendents don’t have to deal with it in the future.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:05 pmDo I really have to drink 8 glasses of water a day? I mean, c’mon….
Comment by Zooey
Sorry Zoo,
July 30th, 2007 at 1:06 pmDem’s da rules. I mean, it’s up to you, that’s just my recommendation.
i’m not comin’ over to make sure you drink ‘em all. If I did come over, I wouldn’t be wastin’ my time monitoring your water consumption. lol
Sgt. Higgins (aka Aguaman),
If you fill a glass up with ice and water, what happens when the ice melts. Does the glass overflow or not?
Bonus question: if an ice cap melts, does the ocean level rise?
July 30th, 2007 at 1:07 pmSGT Higgins,
I clicked on your link, congrats on your wonderful son. I hope he is as smart and as leveled headed as his dad.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:07 pmhad the foresight to drive the elephants into extinction
We drive Al Qaeda and the rest of middle eastern Muslim terrorism into extinction today,
Comment by O. Bigfoot
You place human life (of any kind) in the same category as an animal and you think you’ll be taken seriously? Seriously?
July 30th, 2007 at 1:08 pmSGT Higgins,
I clicked on your link, congrats on your wonderful son. I hope he is as smart and as leveled headed as his dad.
Comment by Krazny
lol Thank You! And truthfully, he makes me look like an idiot. Sometimes that’s really not much of a stretch. Don’t believe me, ask my wife. lol
July 30th, 2007 at 1:10 pmIf we drive Al Qaeda and the rest of middle eastern Muslim terrorism into extinction today, does it matter if there’s a little collateral damage (hundreds of thousands) and a few unintended consequences (like maybe a good part of the world at war and the draining of the American economy) along the way?
July 30th, 2007 at 1:10 pmCynicon Implant sez:
Meaningless question, since much of the ice in question is not floating, but resting on land masses (Greenland and Antarctica are two good examples).
July 30th, 2007 at 1:11 pmOK Sarge, how much water is used in the average shower?
July 30th, 2007 at 1:11 pmWhy does steam go away?
Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Slowly you have begun to make some sense. I still disagree with your conclusions, but applaud you for at least attempting to address the topic with something other than insults. Intelligent people can disagree. Idiots only throw stones.
“Pulling out of Iraq does not mean abandonment. We should be making diplomatic efforts (a course Bush avoided) in the region, and at the U.N. Bush was fine with the U.N. if it gave him cover for war (the illusion of enforcing a U.N. resolution) but not when it comes to peace making. He wants endless war, it’s part of the neo con philosophy, which you can read about on the PNAC website. History shows the war was started on a pretense, and yes, we have the situation we have, and must work from here. So, why kill every Muslim on the planet instead of seeking a diplomatic solution.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:11 pmThere are over a billion Muslims, and we cannot insanely say they are all bad, and all Christians are good etc. It will take global cooperation to fix Iraq, and in reality, Bush does not want to share the oil, so he goes it alone. And we pay the price.
If you fill a glass with water and allow more water (say from ice melting on land) to be added to it, the glass will overflow.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:13 pmMeaningless question, since much of the ice in question is not floating, but resting on land masses (Greenland and Antarctica are two good examples).
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
You win! Only the ice on land masses would affect ocean levels. Does this mean you are a water expert too?
I’m more of a beer expert myself.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:13 pmPerhaps this is lesson for today: We drive Al Qaeda and the rest of middle eastern Muslim terrorism into extinction today, so our descendents don’t have to deal with it in the future.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
“Terrorism” is a strategy, not a thing. You can’t extinguish a strategy, especially since the very effort causes the strategy to grow in value to the people using it.
There will be terrorists in Iraq as long as they have an occupying army to inspire new recruits.
This is exactly like rat extermination. If you poison rats, they will immediately increase procreation in order to replace the dead rats; the end result is MORE rats. The only way to eliminate rats is to eliminate the food supply. In this case, the biggest “food supply” is the US military.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:16 pmI’m more of a beer expert myself.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
Hah! What makes you a beer expert? Guzzling Coors Light does not make you an expert.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:18 pmThe GWOT is the same BS as the WOD.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:18 pmBoth purport to fight a non-entity.
The reason people like drugs is that their reality sucks.
The reason Musims hate the US is their undying and unfettered support for the state and policies of Israel. Period.
Cynicon Implant sez:
I was unaware that knowing something as elementary as the fact that some of the planet’s ice cover is resting on land masses qualified me as an “expert”…but I was also unaware that there were still trolls out there stupid enough to try to pass off the “ice cube in a glass of water” analogy to polar ice caps, as well.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:19 pmTwo recent news stories that appeared back-to-back on Democracy Now’s web site.
Report: U.S. Backs Off Saudi Bank Linked to Militant Funding
The Wall Street Journal is reporting the U.S. has opted to take a hands-off approach to a Saudi bank U.S. intelligence has linked to the financing of militant Islamic extremists. The Al Rajhi bank is among vast holdings belonging to the Saudi billionaire Sulaiman Al Rajhi. The banks activities’ reportedly set off an intense debate within the Bush administration on how to take action. But confidential reports show the administration has ultimately chosen to quietly lobby Saudi monarchs rather than take punitive steps. U.S. intelligence says Al Rahji Bank has held accounts and accepted donations for charities formally designated as fronts for al Qaeda or other militant groups. The CIA concluded the Al Rahji family was knowingly involved. Al Rajhi Bank and the Al Rajhi family have denied any link to financing militants.
Terror Trial Begins for Largest Muslim-U.S. Charity
The disclosure comes as the Bush administration is facing criticism for prosecuting the largest Islamic charity in the U.S. In a trial that began this week, prosecutors accuse the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development of providing millions of dollars in funding to militant activities by Hamas. The charity says the money has gone to Palestinian victims of Israeli attacks and closures in the Occupied Territories. The case is the largest of its kind in U.S. history. Prosecutors have faced scrutiny for heavily relying on secret evidence supplied by the Israeli government. Khalil Meek of the Muslim Legal Fund of America said: “The Bush administration is arguing that providing medical and nutritional assistance to sick and starving Palestinian children amounts to supporting terrorism.â€
Bush is still protecting his Saudi friends from Justice; war on terror my a$$.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:20 pmUm, what was the part, of the thing, in the middle?
July 30th, 2007 at 1:21 pmCT, this is a quote from O’Hanlon above:
“The lack of any unifying ideology for the resistance there makes it unlikely we will face a snowballing mass insurgency. Moreover, most of the difficult attributes of the effort are not the result of administration mistakes so much as the inherent challenge of the job.”
This is proven to be wrong and he has yet to acknowledge this. But he can shift the goal posts and claim a new success. That’s not credible.
One gains credibility by correctly foreseeing what will transpire. One can also gain credibility by admitting the error of earlier statements.
You want to give him kudos, go ahead. I don’t believe he’s met the criteria.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:21 pmWhat is the goal of the so called “Surge” in Iraq, to make the country safe for Iraqis or to make the country safe for Americans? You can’t measure success by the number of American deaths per month because that number will fluxuate depending on active military operations and the location of those operations. It’s possible to cut American deaths down to next to nothing simply by redeploying to safe areas, or advancing to a certain point then stopping.
The criteria for success should be the safety of Iraqi citizens. As long as they continue killing each other by the thousands, we can’t consider the “Surge” or any other military operation a success.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:21 pmOK Sarge, how much water is used in the average shower?
Why does steam go away?
Comment by RUCerious
1. 10-12 gallons
2. Dissipation
Ok, really. I step out for 5 minutes and now I have water expert competition? My ego can’t process this.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:22 pmOr the fact (well, a strong hunch anyway) that no elephants have been hit by meteors in the same period?
Comment by SGT Higgins (H20 Expert) — July 30, 2007 @ 1:03 pm
And no volcanoes have erupted on our soil during Bush’s tenure.
Our hero….
July 30th, 2007 at 1:22 pmHah! What makes you a beer expert? Guzzling Coors Light does not make you an expert.
Comment by gummitch
Coors Light is actually closer to water than beer so maybe we should refer this one to Sarge.
I will drink Coors Light right after one of my ice hockey games — other than that I’m sticking with Bud or Sam Adams.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:22 pmSorry Zoo,
Dem’s da rules. I mean, it’s up to you, that’s just my recommendation.
i’m not comin’ over to make sure you drink ‘em all. If I did come over, I wouldn’t be wastin’ my time monitoring your water consumption. lol
Comment by SGT Higgins (H20 Expert) — July 30, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
*sigh* Ok, 8 glasses it is….
When you come over to check my water consumption, would you mind painting my bathroom? It would be something to do between glasses…. :)
July 30th, 2007 at 1:27 pm“Comment by O. Bigfoot — July 30, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Slowly you have begun to make some sense. I still disagree with your conclusions, but applaud you for at least attempting to address the topic with something other than insults. Intelligent people can disagree. Idiots only throw stones.
Comment by funky p — July 30, 2007 @ 1:11 pm”
I thank you for your kind words. I wholeheartedly agree that we can disagree without the name calling and foul language. In some cases, I have responded in kind to what I have read here, and perhaps that hasn’t always set the best example, but I have always attempted to maintain a certain level of decorum.
Good, raucous debate is one thing, but mere name calling is not an example of good, raucous debate.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:30 pmComment by hellinabucket — July 30, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
You carry a good debate, Mr. Bucket. Much kudos to your sportsmanship.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:32 pmCivil discourse while still dissagreeing. The republic may yet survive.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:37 pm#212 makes a great point. Terrorism is a strategy that any group that is significantly inferior militarily will resort to when they feel it necessary to fight. The problem here is that we are creating more people that feel it is necessary to fight us because we are aggressors (and we are confirming it with every one of Bush’s policies).
We need to remove ourselves from instigating the hate and attempt to assist from outside their borders. If we must stay in Iraq, then we should tear down all of the GIANT permanent bases and have local outposts that are not intrusive into the daily lives of Iraqis. In either case, we are trying not to “feed” the cause and prevent more and more people from feeling justified in attacking us. NIE after NIE that comes out cites the Iraq war as the biggest factor and a DIRECT CAUSE of the increase in world wide terrorism. These are the experts.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:42 pmComment by Carmikl — July 30, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
And, more importantly, why haven’t our military and government leaders tried anything along these lines?
One would think that a reduction, or cessation, of offensive operations would accomplish the following.
1) It would give our soldiers some “down time”.
2) It would mitigate the impression that our military is victimizing Iraqis in general.
3) It would provide an opportunity for Iraqi security forces to assess their capabilities and identify areas in need of improvement.
4) It would lend credence to claims that we are there, only, to support the new Iraqi government.
5) It would allow the more rational elements of the anti-American movement an opportunity to persuade their countrymen that the U.S. is not pursuing a policy of terror against the Iraqi population.
6) It would free U.S. troops to interdict outside terrorist infiltration.
7) It would allow U.S. forces to respond, with overwhelming force, to threats identified by Iraqi security forces.
There are many others but, those are the big ones. Unfortunately, our military, and civilian, leadership claims that reducing offensive operations by U.S. forces will “embolden our enemies” and “allow the terrorists to regroup”. Not to mention the premise that “if we stop offensive operations we surrender”.
Well, our enemies are pretty bold already, legitimate terrorist threats are “grouping” at an unheard of rate and I humbly submit that our leaders need to learn the meaning of the word “surrender” before they bandy it about.
For “real” trolls, the questions raised by this premise are moot. Their goal of “killing anyone who isn’t us” is perfectly clear. While we may despise such a goal it is easily understood. But, rational people need to ask, and keep asking, why we refuse to try letting the Iraqis protect their own interests.
The obvious answer is that the Iraqi’s interests are not the same as our leaders’.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:52 pmActually Sarge, that wasn’t competition, I was just askin!!
July 30th, 2007 at 1:56 pmThanks!
And no volcanoes have erupted on our soil during Bush’s tenure.
Our hero….
Comment by Zooey —
July 30th, 2007 at 1:57 pmI have it on good authority that Yellowstone is going to have a mega eruption before Jan 09, just sayin…
The dizzy left is so heavily invested in an American defeat, as it was in Vietnam [and as the Democrats were way back in the Civil War], that even if Pollack & O’Hanlon are right, they will continue to insist on an American defeat.
It’s the Democratic Party mantra.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:31 pm“We know Saddam Hussein was working on either making or acquiring nuclear weapons. ”
O. bigfoot – care to link to any proof of this. Or is it true because you said it?
That’s what I love about your neoCON trolls. You throw shit out there and then when you are asked to prove it, you can’t.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:32 pm“Believe what “stupid crap’? That a third of Iraq needs emergeny aid? Based on what standard? Ours? Do they need emergency aid because they don’t get electricity 24/7?”
They need our aid because they are hungry, sick and have no clean drinking water. Unlike you, I can back up this claim with proof:
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-28727320070730
July 30th, 2007 at 2:34 pmI watched the Chris Matthews program Sunday and was agog at how non-PC defeatist the panelists happened to be. David Ignatius is the person I respect most on that particular lineup, and he was elegant and informed as usual. It’s no secret that the Democrats are heavily invested in an American defeat to advance their own political agendas. It will be interesting if the Democratic candidates even talk about Iraq from now on the way they have in the past.
One of those Dem candidates might bring up the opposite point of view and a real debate would ensue, not just the “I was against the war before you were” sort of silly twaddle the Dems specialize in.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:39 pmBy the way, bilbobag, can you prove “Saddam Hussein was NOT working on either making or acquiring nuclear weapons” as Ken Pollack alleged in his book back in 2003? No, you can’t. And there is evidence that Saddam’s generals were amazed when their cache of WMD did not get used at the US invasion. It turns out that the WMD had been shipped to Syria at the end of 2002 just as Saddam shipped his air force to Iran during the first Gulf War.
I know that’s way too complex for a Hobbit-mind, but get used to not understanding the ways of Saddam & his clever friends in the region. Way above your skill set.
And facts are outside the purview of the lefty ideologues on this thread.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:44 pmdaveinboca had a second helping of stupid soup today.
His posts are choked full of cutdowns, slams and falsehoods. Topped with neocon sprinkles.
What he doesn’t understand (I’m sure this isn’t even scraping the surface) is that Saddam feared his own people more than any US invasion. He purposely kept the truth of his WMD stockpiles a secret. The truth was the stockpiles were eradicated thru the UN mandates from the Gulf War.
It has been proven daveinboca. Time and time again that there were no stockpiles, no operational links between Saddam and AQ, no links between Iraq and the attacks on the US in 2001.
None and that’s a fact.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:52 pmSupporting Muslims…the left can’t get any lower than this.
Comment by CT Scantoncity
You take that back my righty fascists have been supporting terrorists for years, Who do you think owns Haliburton or Bechtel anyway?
Some lefty?
Idiot.
It was rightys who decided to jump start the Muslims by giving them 8 billion in cash!!
And it was us Righties that wanted to free those terrorists from their oppressive dictator, which never made no sense to me, but anyway us Righties wanted to free them hated muslims from their brutal dictator!!
Moron.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:01 pmIt has been proven daveinboca. Time and time again that there were no stockpiles, no operational links between Saddam and AQ, no links between Iraq and the attacks on the US in 2001.
None and that’s a fact.
Comment by hellinabucket — July 30, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Facts are rendered quaint, like the Geneva Convention or the Constitution, in the mind of the Right Wing Authoritarian. They cannot accept the horrible truth behind the policies they support. It’s the worst kind of cognitive dissonance.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:18 pmIt hasn’t been proven that there were no stockpiles before Saddam shipped them, and the UN was only one reason he got rid of them. Left-wing terrorist enablers just love quote the MSM and use the newsie twaddle as “proof.” The evidence is emerging that Saddam & AQ did have links & they may have been operational as well. I personally doubt SH had anything to do with 9/11. But the links were there & time will tell if they were operational.
As I said before, facts are things the leftie newsie MSMers like to invent. Their continued assertions simply mimic Hitler & Stalin’s BIG LIE thesis that if you say something often enuf, empty-headed people [i.e., lazy & leftie ninnies] will accept the assertion as a “fact.”
Rave on, even Chris Matthews is having second thoughts [or make that first thoughts, since he went with the anti-war leftie agitprop MINDLESSLY].
July 30th, 2007 at 5:24 pm