Chickenhawk congressman criticized by local press.
Chickenhawk congressman criticized by local press.
Last week, ThinkProgress noted that right-wing Ohio Congressman Michael Turner attempted to disparage and smear Center for American Progress military expert Lawrence Korb. Yesterday, Turner’s hometown paper — the Dayton Daily News — covered the incident:
The Center for American Progress’ action fund accused Turner of “smearing” Korb, then tossed out a barb of its own — calling the Republican congressman a “chicken hawk.” The term is often used for someone who ascribes the bravery of soldiers in wartime to themselves because they take a pro-war position. Turner never served in the military. [...]
Korb, who taught at the University of Dayton from 1969 to 1971, said he was taken aback by Turner’s line of questioning. “He was saying I was claiming to be something I wasn’t,” he said.
The definition of chickenhawk referenced in the article was first proffered by TP commenter Midwest Product.
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139 Responses to “Chickenhawk congressman criticized by local press.”
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Obama wants to invade Afganistan. He has not served. Hillary voted to authorize the Iraq war and she has not served either. They are not qualified to be comander in chief because they have not served?
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:10 amClassic chickenhawk: Someone who is gung-ho for war......just as long as it is someone ELSE who actually does the fighting.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:14 amI watched Turner embarrass himself during the recent hearing and all I could think of was Jean Schmidt who embarrassed herself by disparaging Murtha's patriotism.
So, here are two Ohio GOP politicians with no shame - and no brains. How many more are there? Considering the lunacy of voter fraud tolerated by Ohio GOP politicians there are probably many more.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:24 amMany liberal posters here at TP discount the opposition views of those who have not served. By that logic they should also discount the anti-war views of those who have not served. Of course logic is not the liberal strong suite, demagoguery is.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:25 amComment by Uncle Ho — August 2, 2007 @ 7:20 am
Got that right. I was a liberal absolute passivist as a young man, then I grew up.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:28 amFrom the article:
"Interviewed Tuesday, Turner said his intent was not to challenge Korb's credentials..."
No. God no. The attack on Korb was only to question his qualifications as a scholar and military expert. So yeah, absolutely no attack on his credentials.
Someone kill me.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:31 amTroll; I can safely assume that you are pro-war, correct? If so, I don't see YOUR ass in the army. You should not demand that others do something(go to war) that you are not willing to do yourself. Classic chickenhawk. If the draft were to be revived, I have NO doubt that you would be among the first to be sure that your deferments were all in order.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:33 amTroll: I posted my #9 prior to your #7 appearing. My congrats if you are truly a liberal pacifist. I was drafted during Vietnam, and have been anti-war since (lifelong member of V. V. A.W.).
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:41 am#7 Comment by Uncle Ho — August 2, 2007 @ 7:20 am
Got that right. I was a liberal absolute passivist as a young man, then I grew up.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 7:28 am
Some people grow, and other learn.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:41 amUncle Ho,
Here in America all are part of what is known as a democracy and each has an equal voice. I understand you communist tyrranical types have a problem with that, too bad.
Let me assure you of one thing. Though I was a naive young man and my idealism prevented me from serving in my younger days, if my country called me to serve I would in a heartbeat. So you got that part wrong.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:42 amSome people grow, and other learn.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 2, 2007 @ 7:41 am
Unfortunately for the greying libs that ship has passed.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:44 amObama wants to invade Afganistan.
Comment by Troll
Brilliant observation. Really brilliant.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:46 am#13 Unfortunately for the greying libs that ship has passed.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 7:44 am
Repeating mistakes of the german people 70 years ago isn't "learning", just saying.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:46 am#12 - "if my country called me to serve I would in a heartbeat." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 7:42 am
Well, recruiting is at a all-time low. Why haven't you signed up? They've even extended the enlistment age to 40!
Why haven't you signed up?
I spent my four years in the army as a Republican. When I got out, I realized how much the Repub's screw the military & veterans, and became a Democrat when my eyes were opened to the truth.
Go sign up now, and serve your country!
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:47 amTroll
Being anti-all-war and serving is inconsistent.
Not serving in the military and being anti-all-war are consistent positions. This is pascifism.
Being anti a specific war and not serving is also consistent, as you are not asking people to die for a cause you don't believe in, and you aren't risking your life for a cause you don't believe in.
Being anti a specific war (Such as Iraq) and serving in the military are not inconsistent, as you do not get to choose the wars you fight in.
Being pro-war and not serving in the military, and having no good excuse for not serving, is inconsistent. You are still not a chickenhawk however, as there can be circumstances in which a war is justified even without you having served.
Claiming that the pro-war position is a sign of a person being "Tougher" then one in the anti-war position even if you haven't served makes you a chickenhawk, as you are claiming courage you have not demonstrated via a cause you are not willing to bleed for.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:49 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 7:47 am
DC
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:51 amAs a matter of fact I tryed to sign up after the first Gulf War but I was too old then. The same is true today.
Thats "tried" sorry.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:51 amTP, your filter is doo doo. Two perfectly good posts, with no bad words, dissappeared.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:56 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 7:47 am
DC
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:57 amI agree the Republicans have not given our vets that which is due them, but if you think the Dems have you are mistaken.
Chicken-Hawk, I prefer condescending stooge.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:58 am#21 I agree the Republicans have not given our vets that which is due them, but if you think the Dems have you are mistaken.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 7:57 am
Maybe true, but the fact is that Democrats are less prone to start unwinnable, illegal wars with little facts, if any, in hand.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:58 am#18 - “As a matter of fact I (tried) to sign up after the first Gulf War but I was too old then. The same is true today.†Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 7:51 am
How old are you?
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:01 am#20 - "but if you think the Dems have you are mistaken." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 7:57 am
So, when I hear that the Democratssare pushing to increase the VA funding that the Repub's refused to properly fund, they really aren't doing anything at all?
Could you explain that one again? It doesn't quite sound right.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:01 amEvil Spaniard
It is better to say liberals then Democrats when you make that claim. Most of America's big wars were entered into by Democrats, not Republicans.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:03 am21. When the Dems try to give our soldiers their due, Repigs block the legislation, same as when dems try to help poor children and elders. Republicans have proven their lack of humanity hundreds of times in the past few years. Anybody that belongs to a party that puts money over people doesn't deserve American citizenship, and that certainly describes Republicans, who vote for warmongers and war profiteers over real humans every time. We're fortunate that we won't see Republicans in power again after '08 for decades, so we can repair the damage done, which is far greater than anything terrorists could have hoped for. In fact, you coward repukes fell right into line with Bin Laden's thinking; he knew you'd panic and do his work for him, because he's friends with Bush, and knew how shallow and evil the Bushes are. Repukes support the family that funded Hitler, that says it all.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:05 amComment by Uncle Ho — August 2, 2007 @ 7:41 am
HO
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:07 amSorry I no longer am an absolute passivist nor do I believe are most libs here for any mentally stable person would use violence to defend those whom they love if it were necessary.
Bruce Gorton, those "big wars" were also won by Democrats, and were entered into, as you said, not started by. Republicans have proven themselves unwilling and unable to defend the USA.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:08 amHow old are you?
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 2, 2007 @ 8:01 am
Mid 40s
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:09 amThe comments above about whether or not someone is qualified to be the commander in chief because they have or have not "served" leaves out an important point. The thing we have in the White House now who parades himself around as the commander in chief never served either. He found it too convenient to blow off his commitment to the Air National Guard and instead went off to Alabama to work on a campaign for some Repignican. Where does that leave the defenders of Chimpy McFlightsuit?
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:09 amronjazz
Vietnam?
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:10 am#28 - "We’re fortunate that we won’t see Republicans in power again after ‘08 for decades, so we can repair the damage done, " Comment by ronjazz — August 2, 2007 @ 8:05 am
Ronjazz, don't fall into the same mistaken train of thought that the Repub's did in 2000! They made the mistake of thinking they had a lock on a permenant majority! See how wrong they were?
It doesn't take much to throw a majority into the minority. Texas Repub's think they've got a permenant majority, but the GOP has been steadily losing support over the past 7 years. Gov. Perry barely scraped his lazy a$$ into office in 2006, and it could have been different if there weren't so many third parties to pull voted from Bell!
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:11 am#35,
Yeah, once again, how convenient tough guy
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:13 am#27 Evil Spaniard
It is better to say liberals then Democrats when you make that claim. Most of America’s big wars were entered into by Democrats, not Republicans.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 2, 2007 @ 8:03 am
Well, most probably you're right, I can't find myself surfing all the military events of the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_history_events
Anyhow, at least lately, the Republicans are out to win the "championship" by far. But you're right, it must be "progressive" or more likely "pacifist", a rara avis in the USA mindset ( I don't want to insult here to the USA people, but, well, "pacifists" are a minority).
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:15 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 8:01 am
The VA is poorly managed and has been for decades. To throw more money at it is a mistake. The health services of the Vets would be much better managed if it were privatized.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:15 am#35 - "I did not know that though. So I dont qualify as a Pssy. I was just a misguided lib." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:11 am
Now you're just a misguided con, right? ;-)
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:16 amI did not know that though. So I dont qualify as a Pssy. I was just a misguided lib.
Comment by Troll
Blackwater will take you. Go sign up.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:17 amThe health services of the Vets would be much better managed if it were privatized.
Comment by Troll
It WAS privatized, moron. It was privatization that created so many of the problems.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:21 amTroll
So you went from being anti-all-wars to being in favour of all wars?
You know, the same answer doesn't solve every problem hey.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:21 am#38 - "The health services of the Vets would be much better managed if it were privatized." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:15 am
No, the health services would just be much more expensive, not better. I was at Walter Reed in 1987 to get my elbow fixed after I broke it. Services at that time were better than all the private hospitals in the area.
I was also back in 1989 to get the scews removed from my Elbow, and they were re-painting all the walls and re-laying carpet because of the extra money the Dem's allocated to the VA, and then-Pres. Bush Sr. DIDN'T veto.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:22 amBruce Gorton,
That paradigm change seems to have occured for troll when it was no longer possible for his ass to be sent to battle. What a tough guy.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:25 amI have not been able to post at all. So this is a test.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:25 am#38 Comment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 8:01 am
The VA is poorly managed and has been for decades. To throw more money at it is a mistake. The health services of the Vets would be much better managed if it were privatized.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:15 am
Gosh, now the "privatization mantra". Show us an actual study of the convenience of privatization of the VA, or shut up. Explain us how it can be better to have for profit corporations giving healthcare for the troops from Iraq, if they have severe injuries and illness. That would mean astronomical costs for the veterans with limbs amputated, or DU-related illness, or with PTSD.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:25 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 8:16 am
Actually NO.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:28 amWhile I do not subscribe to the whole libertarian philosophy I attempt to back those politicians who lean that way. I would still describe myself as a Classic Liberal and in europe would be very comfortable in the liberal party for the real leftist actually admit they are leftist and call themselves socialist unlike the dems here who don't have the spine to admit who they are as socialists.
Privatization of health services helps nobody but the owners of those services. Taking a profit for health services is immoral and unnecessary. Capitalism at that level is just as evil as communism, and works just as badly.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:29 amDefinition of Collaborator: To cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force. Shouldn't we be calling the trolls this along with many in the old stream media?
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:30 amComment by Evil Spaniard — August 2, 2007 @ 8:25 am
The VA is suffering from the same problems that socialized health care is suffering in Canada and much of Europe. Long waits, too few Drs and deteriating facilities are just a few of the problems. The US has an obligation to pay for the best care available for its vets and the VA is not the best. The Government is not known for managing its resources well and were it can privatize it should.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:37 amComment by varnst — August 2, 2007 @ 8:30 am
varnst
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:41 amYou are too eager to label people and call them names (not that I never do). If more people discussed ideas maybe we would see "progress".
Frankly I have no idea why we're engaging with a Troll who doesn't even know we have troops in Afghanistan.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:41 am#49,
Yawn. Same old tired comparrisons. Other than theoretical partisan arguments do you have any actual real world experience about any topic that you blather on about?
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:42 amCandyce
Well, that is a pretty good point.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:43 amComment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:37 am
Thats "where" sorry.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:44 am#49 - "The Government is not known for managing its resources well and were it can privatize it should." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:37 am
Well, we've seen how well the Federal Government has mis-managed the military and refused to properly armour the troops and their vehicles resulting in more deaths that could have been avoided. Should we move to a privatized military like Blackwater to "improve the management of the military"?
If privitization works as well as you claim, it should work wonders with the military!
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:45 amComment by Candyce — August 2, 2007 @ 8:41 am
You are correct Candyce I meant Pakistan.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:46 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 8:45 am
The constitution (and common sense) requires that the military be under the direct control of our elected leaders. But certainly the arms and supplies to the militar are provided by private corporations and it has worked well.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:50 amYou are correct Candyce I meant Pakistan.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:46 am
When did he say he wanted to invade Pakistan? It certainly wasn't in this speech.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:55 amTroll
Suggesting America invade a nuclear power wasn't exactly a glorious indication of Obama's common sense, and he is suffering for it if the polls are anything to go on.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:56 amComment by toasterhead — August 2, 2007 @ 8:55 am
Toast
See,
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2182955.ece
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:58 amWhen did he say he wanted to invade Pakistan? It certainly wasn’t in this speech.
Comment by toasterhead
He didn't.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:59 amLet's look at this paragraph because to me it's classic obfuscation tactics at work.QUOTE"He accused Korb of "political sloganeering" and said he felt his testimony leaned too heavily on opinions. "The fact that they have resorted to name-calling is evidence that (Korb's) appearance was political and was not substantive," he said. First off the Rep. said he felt, he felt?, Mr. Korb's testimony leaned too heavily on opinions. Hmm, did he dispute any of those opinions with his own facts? The fact that they have resorted to name calling is evidence of politics at play? Again did Mr. Korb call Rep. Turner this name anytime prior to his appearance? Isn't that a little after the fact? This is classic McCarthy style tactics. Stooge, plain and simple. Man the things these people will do for their Dear Leader.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:59 am#58 - "The constitution (and common sense) requires that the military be under the direct control of our elected leaders." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:50 am
But you said the federal government mis-manages everything, so thye're obviously mis-managing the military. I'm just following your logical conclusion: privitize everything to make it work better!
Just because it's privitized doesn't mean the government isn't in control. If they don't do as we say, cut off their funding, and they'll snap to and fall in line! Look how well we control Haliburton and Blackwater! They're the best example of privitization ever!
We could privitize the police and save millions! We could privitize schools and your children could learn Mc-Reading and Mc-Writing and we could save billions! Two big-macs minus one big-mac equals one big-mac!
If we privitize the military, the US could be debt free, after Pres. Bush's "borrow and squander" policies have almost bankrupted the US!
Yes, this is sarcasm, but your privatization theory doesn't hold water. Look at how well the no-bid contracts in Iraq have done us: hundreds of millions (possibly billions) in mis-spending that cannot be accounted for, and no attempt by Pres. Bush or VPres. Cheney to bring accountability to Iraq at all.
I know both military and civilians that are currently serving in Iraq, and while there is good news that doesn't get reported, there's more bad news that we never hear about.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:59 am#49 Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 2, 2007 @ 8:25 am
The VA is suffering from the same problems that socialized health care is suffering in Canada and much of Europe.
Hearsay, or you've traveled to ALL the countries of Europe and used its healthcare facilities?
Long waits, too few Drs and deteriating facilities are just a few of the problems.
Hey, I can use the fear card too. People that is expelled from hospitals because their insurance didn't cover the healthcare they need, out of pocket payments, 12% of country's people uninsured, preexisting condition, expensive, eye, dental and mental not covered properly, and all that doesn't shields you from log lines, too, and scarcity of Drs out of big cities. You can find all that I say with a few clicks of mouse in the google.
The US has an obligation to pay for the best care available for its vets and the VA is not the best.
No link yet.
The Government is not known for managing its resources well and were it can privatize it should.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:37 am
Enron.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:01 amSuggesting America invade a nuclear power wasn’t exactly a glorious indication of Obama’s common sense, and he is suffering for it if the polls are anything to go on.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 2, 2007 @ 8:56 am
Toast
See,
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol/ news/ world/ us_and_americas/ article2182955.ece
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 8:58 am
Obama didn't say anything about invading Pakistan. The Times of London said it, not Barack himself. I've read his entire speech and he does not once say that he would invade Pakistan. He says that he's willing to have U.S. and Pakistani forces work together in the NWFP, he'll increase education and economic aid to Pakistan, he's willing to cut off military aid to Pervez Musharraf if he won't help, and he's willing to act on actionable intelligence if the situation arises. But he never says that he plans to invade Pakistan.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:06 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 8:59 am
Privatizing the military is a threat to democracy. Roads are built by contractors, public schools did not really exist until the mid 1800s and the recent Private Charter schools are out performing public schools across the board. I do believe that where it is constitutionally legit privatization is in the best interest of the nation.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:10 amThe Times, owned by the right wing liar Rupert Murdoch.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:11 amTroll, how long is the wait for a doctor when ones does not have insurance?
Any wait is shorter than an infinite one!
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:11 amEnron.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 2, 2007 @ 9:01 am
Can you say bridge collapse.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:12 amAwesome. I'd say I'm pissed that they didn't attribute that wording of the definition to me, but given that I hide behind a pseudonym I really have no right to complain.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:14 am"Though I was a naive young man and my idealism prevented me from serving in my younger days, if my country called me to serve I would in a heartbeat. So you got that part wrong."
Why must your country call you to serve? If you are under 45 years old you can enlist. That's how we do it these days. It is a volunteer army. Our country does not "call" people to serve any longer.
Coward.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:15 amPrivatizing the military is a threat to democracy.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 9:10 am
Inadvertedly, you've found the crux of the issue. You don't trust a privatized military because you know that such an organization will pursue its own interests, not yours, or the ones of the greater share of the USA people.
What makes you think that the privatized owners of the VA would look for the best for the veterans and not the best for their own economic interests?
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:17 am"I agree the Republicans have not given our vets that which is due them, but if you think the Dems have you are mistaken.
Comment by Troll "
They are trying Troll. Unfortunately every time they try they are filibustered by the Republicans or Bush threatens to veto the bill.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:17 amComment by criticalthinker — August 2, 2007 @ 9:11 am
Our present system has problems no doubt but I dont want the gov managing my healthcare or listening to my phone calls. Privacy issues and limited gov are legit positions because liberty is at stake.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:18 amComment by bilbobaggins — August 2, 2007 @ 9:17 am
They are trying now for political advantage and to further the socialist agenda of big gov.. They have not been consistent in this regard.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:20 am"recent Private Charter schools are out performing public schools across the board. "
I don't know where you live but all the Charter schools in my neck of the woods are not private, they are publicly funded. A private school is a private school, so I don't know why you are calling Charter schools private. And, many private schools outperform public schools because the parents pay enormous amounts of money for their children to attend. Most times if a school has more money they will do better than a school with less money. Look at inner city schools who are allocated much less than suburban schools. Generally their performance is not as good as the suburban school. It's not rocket science.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:21 am#70 Enron.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 2, 2007 @ 9:01 am
Can you say bridge collapse.
Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 9:12 am
So you compare the wilful mismanagement of several State's sources of energy to enrich themselves, resulting in massive blackouts to a single bridge collapse? How many interstatal highways bridges exist in the USA? How many have collapsed lately?
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:22 amHey, isn't it totally cool (and a bit of plagiarism) that someone at the Dayton Daily News reads TP and used a definition found here to describe that dumb-assed congressman?
BTW, the "Troll" troll should be stuffed by now, stop feeing him, he'll get fatter.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:23 am"When did he say he wanted to invade Pakistan? It certainly wasn’t in this speech."
You gotta love those Republican hypocrites. If a Republican presidential candidate said they would go after al Qaeda in Afghanistan, the right would be standing up and cheering. But since it is a Democrat who said it, they have to try to find a way to attack his stance. They are so transparent. They really don't realize how foolish they sound, do they?
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:27 amFrom news article -- "Interviewed Tuesday, Turner said his intent was not to challenge Korb's credentials — he said he remembered Korb testifying before the committee before — but instead to challenge the tenor of his testimony."
So if Turner wanted merely to challenge the tenor of Korb's testimony, why did he do so by challenging Korb's credentials? Stupid move -- it just made Turner look like a fool.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:29 am"Our present system has problems no doubt but I dont want the gov managing my healthcare"
So, you would rather have some nameless bureaucrat who is out to make a profit manage your health care? And if you think your health care records are being protected by the Health Care companies, you can think again. One of our major Health Care corporations (I don't remember which one) is currently outsourcing medical records keeping to India. Doesn't that make you feel so secure?
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:31 amComment by Evil Spaniard — August 2, 2007 @ 9:22 am
Some level of corruption, mismanagement and ineptitude exist in the public and private sectors. I will concede that the bridge collapse was not the best example to refer to. In the end however democracy is best served by a weaker federal gov.. Additionally it seems in many cases gov has learned that the private sector can provide the actual services better than if gov were to do it itself. Overall with the exception of the military I think this is true.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:32 amComment by bilbobaggins — August 2, 2007 @ 9:31 am
Governments job is too create laws to prohibit such things.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:33 amComment by bilbobaggins — August 2, 2007 @ 9:27 am
You need to create strawmen to win an arguement. I know of no republicans who would argue invasion of pakistan at this point and if one did I can assure you most conservatives would recognize this person as an idiot.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:37 am#67 - "public schools did not really exist until the mid 1800s and the recent Private Charter schools are out performing public schools across the board." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 9:10 am
"Charter schools fail to top their public peers.
The data show, for instance, that charter school students in 2003 were several points behind their counterparts in both reading and math in fourth and eighth grades. Standardized math scores in urban charters also lagged, but reading scores were comparable. "
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-22-charter-schools_x.htm
"Charter schools fail.
JACKSONVILLE -- A quick review of charter school results in Duval County might indicate the seven-year-old concept of these independent public schools in Florida is failing the test.
Just look at the grades. Of seven Duval County charter schools open last year, one received a D, and six received F's, on Florida's Comprehensive Achievement Test, called the FCAT, the state assessment of schools. Three have since been closed."
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2004/07/19/story2.html
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:37 amAdditionally it seems in many cases gov has learned that the private sector can provide the actual services better than if gov were to do it itself. Overall with the exception of the military I think this is true.
Comment by Troll
Read the internal memo from Walter Reed. Your assertion doesn't hold up.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:38 amHey, TP, I miss the ThinkFast threads.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:39 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 9:37 am
Your information hits the spot, Soldier. Good links.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:40 amI think TRoll is having a confusion regarding private, public and democracy.
Private = NO public scrutiny. YOu have no access or opinion whatsoever in company´s decision. If a private company runs your healthcare and they want to lift prices, you wont have anything to say about that. You just pay.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:43 amPublic = Public scrutiny. As in democracy.
I know of no republicans who would argue invasion of pakistan at this point and if one did I can assure you most conservatives would recognize this person as an idiot.
Comment by Troll
Dont worry. You supported the invasion of a country that posed no threat to the US. We still think you guys are idiots.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:44 amTroll,
Another corporate whore? Let's talk about something the govt "runs" that does extremely well.
Let's start with the largest govt run quasi-corporation, (and next to Walmart, the US's 2nd largest employer). the US Postal service, still the cheapest and best postal service in the world. And the post office MUST have offices in many (1000's) cities so small (So rich morons don't have to drive 15 miles to the next biggest town). These offices run in the red every day of existence. The post office has a customer satisfaction rate equal to or better than any private organization. The reason you see things (FEMA) run so badly is because you "conservatives" just can't govern, you put morons (friends) in charge of things they don't have a clue about. Then you whine "PRIVATIZE" And despite what many people think the postal services receives NO MONEY from taxes. And it's price increases have to be approved by the govt. Not like other delivery services who can raise their price at any time. And finally every postal employee makes a decent living wage, has benefits, paid vacations, and so on.
You have been brainwashed by "corporate media" , and incompetent, unethical leaders to think government is always bad.
My ex-wife was from Canada, and the stories you hear about waiting months for "elective" surgery are not the norm. As well once America changes to a one payer system, and doctors and drug companies aren't raping the system.
I know you like to think America is the best at everything, if so why can't we have national health care, and it be the best?
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:45 amMike Turner's voting record:
http://www.ontheissues.org/OH/Mike_Turner.htm
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:47 amComment by Juan C — August 2, 2007 @ 9:43 am
Good morning, Juan!
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:50 amOur troll conveniently ignores the fact and the record, which shows that government onkly fails when Republicans are in charge, as it is in their best interests for people to die so they can prove their point, which is money over humanity. Medicare and Social Security both give the lie to the Troll's nonsense, and private contractors that are supplying the military have supplies them with substandard equipment, putting them at risk and actually increasing the chances of death and injury. Bad government. as practiced by the GOP, will lead to bad results. Good government will strengthen this nation. if Troll wants a strong nation, he should support and vote for Dems and liberals, who care about children and the elderly, not the GOP, which cares only for profits and power. the GOP has proven for 100 years its disdain for American citizens and its hatred of the poor and disenfranchised. the GOP is more of a danger to America than Al Qaeda, and that's a fact. the bridge collapse is just another in a series of GOP disasters that the GOP governor is doing his best to blame on anyone but those responsible: his own buddies.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:53 amComment by Trolls-R-Stoopid — August 2, 2007 @ 9:45 am
Highly convincing. Why didn't I think this way before?
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:53 am#93 - "Mike Turner’s voting record:" Comment by dim wit — August 2, 2007 @ 9:47 am
Rep. Turner's voting record proves that he's not in-line with the values of the majority of Americans. Thanks for the link!
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:55 amDont worry. You supported the invasion of a country that posed no threat to the US. We still think you guys are idiots.
Comment by Juan C — August 2, 2007 @ 9:44 am
Many democrats supported this as well so I am to conclude they are idiots as well.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:55 amGood morning, Juan!
Comment by CT_Version 2
¡Buenos dÃas, CT!
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:56 amMany democrats supported this as well so I am to conclude they are idiots as well.
Comment by Troll
You bet!!!
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:56 amronjazz
Actually it is a lot simpler then that:
Ronald Reagan: "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem."
Now, I don't know about you, but if I was to hire someone to run my government, I wouldn't pick an anarchist.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:57 am"They are trying now for political advantage and to further the socialist agenda of big gov.. They have not been consistent in this regard.
Comment by Troll"
Prove it. Show us where the Democrats have voted against increasing benefits for our soldiers. Show us where the Democrats have done anything to threaten the stability of our military.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:59 amComment by Bruce Gorton — August 2, 2007 @ 9:57 am
According to Reagan, any segment of Government that provided help to those in need was "the problem."
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:00 am"You need to create strawmen to win an arguement. I know of no republicans who would argue invasion of pakistan at this point and if one did I can assure you most conservatives would recognize this person as an idiot.
Comment by Troll"
Excuse me. You Republicans supported and still support the invasion of a country that was no threat to us in order to steal their oil. You Republicans are supporting invading Iran because you "think" that they are creating a nuclear bomb and because your leaders tell you that Iran is involved in Iraq (forgetting that way more Saudi's are involved in the insurgency than Iran).
Knowing all that, why would a Republican not want to "invade" Pakistan in order to take out al Qaeda (you know, the people responsible for 9-11)?
Besides, Obama did not say he would "invade" Pakistan. He said that if he had credible intelligence that al Qaeda was posed to threaten the US again, he would send soldiers into the area of Pakistan where they are hiding and have al Qaeda training camps. That makes much more sense than invading Iraq to steal their oil.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:02 am#98,
Democrats supported the war based on lies massaged by Cheney and his daily visits to various intel sources. A decision is only as good as the information it is based on, and Cheney assured that the decision to go to war was a foregon conclusion based on his manipulated lies.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:04 am"Comment by bilbobaggins — August 2, 2007 @ 9:31 am
Governments job is too create laws to prohibit such things.
Comment by Troll "
What "things". What post are you referring to. You know Troll, you really don't make a lot of sense in your posts.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:04 am¡Buenos dÃas, CT!
Comment by Juan C — August 2, 2007 @ 9:56 am
Thanks, Juan. As usual, keep up the good writing.
Say...do you actual run Juancole.com? I've just started reading, and I can already tell those postings to be a masterpiece.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:05 amComment by Candyce — August 2, 2007 @ 9:38 am
Of course when benefits are withdrawn potential employees will seek employment elsewhere. Everyone wants a fed job as do I. The health and retirement benifits are great. When those same jobs are privatized those benefits go away. As long as fed jobs exist private corporations will struggle to compete with an entity which does not have to have be fiscally responsible and that is very difficult.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:05 amTexas Democrat
You just used the word "massaged" and Cheney in the same sentence and I broke out in hives.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:06 amBesides, Obama did not say he would “invade†Pakistan. He said that if he had credible intelligence that al Qaeda was posed to threaten the US again, he would send soldiers into the area of Pakistan where they are hiding and have al Qaeda training camps. That makes much more sense than invading Iraq to steal their oil.
Comment by bilbobaggins
Still, it is a perpetuation of war which is convenient for the corporations that all candidates work for. Lets go invading countries that have Al-Qaeda training camps. Tell me when you are over.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:06 ambilbobaggins,
The assertion that Obama said he would invade Pakistan is based on an article in the Times of London, owned by the right wing liar Rupert Murdoch, it has zero credibility.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:06 am#102 - That reminds me of the quote: I alwoasy support my country. I support my government when they deserve it.
Of course, I can't remember the exact quote or who said it. Too much time spent wasting brain cells playing computer games. ;-)
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:08 amSay…do you actual run Juancole.com? I’ve just started reading, and I can already tell those postings to be a masterpiece.
Comment by CT_Version 2
When I got here, I didnt know about Juan Cole. My name is Juan Cristobal. Thats all. And, I will have his expertise maybe in 3 or 4 more lives. Heh.
Thanks, anyway.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:08 amComment by bilbobaggins — August 2, 2007 @ 10:04 am
The security of peoples private information which you implied was in jepordy as a result of the management of records being outsourced to India.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:08 amOutsourcing of jobs, just another great idea brought to you by Conserv666ative Republic666ans.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:13 am#107 - "When those same jobs are privatized those benefits go away. As long as fed jobs exist private corporations will struggle to compete with an entity which does not have to have be fiscally responsible and that is very difficult." Comment by Troll — August 2, 2007 @ 10:05 am
Actually, my first job out of the Army was a contracting position with the Dept. of the Interior. I had full benefits and a good 401k plan. Every job I've been in since that time has included benefits equal to or better than my first job.
The job I'm at now is a small company (under 50 employees) and the company has bargained with two other companies to get group rates for health/dental/vision/life insurance/retirement plans. They offer competitive plans that give comparative coverage I had at my last job.
When private companies don't care about their employees, they don't offer benefits. When private companies care about their employees, they can find workable alternatives.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:14 amComment by Juan C — August 2, 2007 @ 10:08 am
Well, heck. When it's tough to tell the two of you apart, it shows that you're probably not lagging far behind.
Good job on this site, nonetheless.
Do you recall if Zooey claimed that Daily Kos was covering TP's convention? I think that was her explanation for the lack of thinkfast material, but I may not be remember correctly.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:15 amTroll
No, it is jeopardised because the Republican Congress didn't perform their duties as an oversight body in the years 2000-2006, instead striving to legalise every breach of the US constitution by the president.
No organisation, no matter what sector it falls in, can survive when its heads are hell-bent on making it fail.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:16 am#117 - CT
TP is at the YearlyKos convention, not the other way around. :)
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:19 amOh, and toasterhead:
Having read the whole speech, I have to admit I was gravely mistaken about Obama's statement. Thankyou for posting the link.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:20 amComment by Democrat Soldier — August 2, 2007 @ 10:14 am
Another good posting.
Federal jobs set the right example to indirectly encourage the private sector to shape up and care about their employees.
Glad to see you enjoying the fruits of your labor, Soldier.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:21 amDo you recall if Zooey claimed that Daily Kos was covering TP’s convention? I think that was her explanation for the lack of thinkfast material, but I may not be remember correctly.
Comment by CT_Version
The light posings are due to the TP staff traveling to the YearlyKos convention....if I recall correctly. Then again, I'm part republican, so my recollections are not only often faulty, but are also protected under executive privilege. So there. ThhhbbbtttT! lol
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:21 amComment by Zooey — August 2, 2007 @ 10:19 am
Good morning, Zooey.
Thank you for your clarification, as usual.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:22 amThen again, I’m part republican, so my recollections are not only often faulty, but are also protected under executive privilege. So there. ThhhbbbtttT! lol
Comment by SGT Higgins — August 2, 2007 @ 10:21 am
Yeah, but your other half is patchouli stank hippy, so let it all hang out, my man. :D
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:26 amComment by Trolls-R-Stoopid — August 2, 2007 @ 9:45 am
The USPS has the advantage of being able to keep experienced help and can depend on the feds bailing out its retirement and health system when it goes bankrupt something a private corporation can not do. So really you cant compare private companies to public.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:26 amGood morning, CT.
You're welcome.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:26 amComment by SGT Higgins — August 2, 2007 @ 10:21 am
Don't worry, Sarge. That part-republican trait didn't get the better of you, because you didn't perjure yourself.
Thanks very much for the information.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:30 amNo offense to "Midwest Product", but I don't agree with his definition of "Chickenhawk".
While appropo, you don't typically find these people calling themselves "brave". And it ignores the fact that most typically have never served themselves, often going to great pains to AVOID serving when they had the opportunity.
My own definition of Chickenhawk:
So it is written.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:32 amSo really you cant compare private companies to public.
Comment by Troll
Then how are you able to make assertions that private companies work better than public entities, unless you compare them in some way?
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:34 amThat part-republican trait didn’t get the better of you, because you didn’t perjure yourself.
-------- That, and the fact that when I first came to TP, Zooey took that part-republican part to the side and smacked the holy hell out of it.
Thanks very much for the information.--- my pleasure...no really, I'm still a bit tingly.
Comment by CT_Version 2
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:37 am125. Neither Chrysler nor the airlines nor the savings and Loans companies that were bailed out by Republicans were public companies. if you're going to make an argument, at least do some research instead of spouting lies. Otherwise, you're just another Repuke liar. The USPS should be a public company; when it was, the mail was delivered more efficiently and cheaply. that's a simple fact. Are you allergic to facts, or are you programmed to lie? Again, good government works, Republican government doesn't. Check NOLA or 9/11 to see what happens when anarchists and war profiteers take over a democracy.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:40 amOh, and toasterhead:
Having read the whole speech, I have to admit I was gravely mistaken about Obama’s statement. Thankyou for posting the link.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 2, 2007 @ 10:20 am
You're welcome!
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:46 amIn the 60's and 70's a chickenhawk was the term used for a man who cruised the streets seeking out young boys. Alas, such power was not enough for them!
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:47 amIn the 60’s and 70’s a chickenhawk was the term used for a man who cruised the streets seeking out young boys. Alas, such power was not enough for them!
Comment by greenie — August 2, 2007 @ 10:47 am
Now they just use AOL Instant Messenger.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:51 amCandyce,
Exactly right!
Calling out the double speak!
It's not supposed to make sense, it's just supposed to wrap you up in convoluted ridiculousness.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:54 amI wonder what BOK-BOK sounds like in a southern Ohio twang???
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:00 amYou are deluded. Stop posting lies - they can be checked.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:01 amYou are deluded. Stop posting lies - they can be checked.
Comment by Marcus Aruelius —
Curious. What part of his post did you find a lie?
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:12 amI almost can't take it anymore.
"Chickenhawk congressman criticized by local press." No where in the link was the congressman criticized (by the author or paper at least).
Stop making misleading headlines, it's getting out of control.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:33 am#124 Mugsy--
Yours is a fine definition as well. I do disagree with your first statement, though ("you don’t typically find these people calling themselves 'brave' â€). The chickenhawk crowd is very consistent in calling anyone who is anti-war a "coward," and they constantly trumpet as something to be proud of their willingness to stand up to the evildoers by bravely marching other peoples' children off to war. Check out the writings of any of the 101st Keyboardists and you will find paeans to their own bravery.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:38 am"Chickenhawk or chickenshit: same thing really.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:56 amBert ~ You're right. It was the CAP who called the congresscretin a chickenhawk..not the paper.
August 2nd, 2007 at 12:01 pmHell, Turner's a damn American hero compared to right winger and has been guitarist Ted Nugent who has admitted in numerous publications including the Detroit Free Press (July 15, 1990) to urinating and defecating in his pants for an entire week to avoid serving his country during the Vietnam War. Now, under the backdrop of the American flag, he tours the country earning as much as $20,000 a night preaching about the Constitution, right to bear arms and patriotism. Hypocrisy beyond belief!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:51 pm