Gates’s surge skepticism.
By on Aug 3rd, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Gates’s surge skepticism.
The LA Times reports:
Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates acknowledged Thursday that the Bush administration underestimated the difficulty of getting a political truce in Iraq, where Prime Minister Nouri Maliki’s government has been crippled by a walkout by Sunni Arab ministers.
The Pentagon chief’s remarks Thursday were his closest yet to acknowledging that the Bush administration’s top political goals for Iraq may not materialize during the buildup, even if it is extended into next spring, the latest the military could sustain the increase. He also is the top Bush administration official to express such concerns publicly.
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It’s the other way around. First diplomacy, if not works, then war. It’s cheaper and has a far better ROI.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:33 pmWhy does Gates want Sunni extremists in the Iraqi govt?
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:35 pmGates obviously did not read the latest GOP talking points.
“We’re Making Progress” is still #1…
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:36 pm#2 Why does Gates want Sunni extremists in the Iraqi govt?
Comment by Polus — August 3, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Purple fingers, remember? They are the representatives of the Iraqi people, like it or not.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:37 pm-Pull all of the troops back to encircle the oilfields and oil terminals, partition Iraq, then create the new country of Bushiestan….. already.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:38 pm4 years later and they now think they might have underestimated this?
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:39 pmThey were told 4 years ago they did underestimate this.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:39 pmPurple fingers, remember? They are the representatives of the Iraqi people, like it or not.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
but the quit. aren’t they free too.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:40 pmThey were wrong and they continue to be wrong.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:40 pmthe = they
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:40 pmLook for a new SECDEF in the immediate future,
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:41 pmReality sucks when you’re a Bushbot.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:42 pmEvil Spaniard
ROI
what is ROI?
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:42 pm“Purple fingers, remember? They are the representatives of the Iraqi people, like it or not.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
but the quit. aren’t they free too.
Comment by Polus — August 3, 2007 @ 12:40 pm”
It’s going to be hard to come to a reconsiliation with the sunnis if their representatives have just walked out. This really is a bad turn. But, never mind, they’re on vacation now anyway! :D
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:43 pmBig Surprise. The Bush Administration has underestimated everything it has ever estimated…Everything.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:47 pmsqueege,
I suspect ROI= Return on Investment
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:48 pmbluefish
I suspect ROI= Return on Investment
Ah thanks, I could only get it to Rate of Investment, which made no sense to me in context.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:49 pm#15 Big Surprise. The Bush Administration has underestimated everything it has ever estimated…Everything.
Comment by gv
Except the stupidity of a majority of the people to allow them to run a Nazi State in the US for 6 1/2 years!
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:52 pm#16 squeege,
I suspect ROI= Return on Investment
Comment by bluefish — August 3, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
Yes. But given that “humanitarian disaster” is something alien to the neocon’s language, I use the economic and power lingo that they understand.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:53 pm#14 It’s going to be hard to come to a reconsiliation with the sunnis if their representatives have just walked out. This really is a bad turn. But, never mind, they’re on vacation now anyway! :D
Comment by DigDug — August 3, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
They’ve learned the Democracy the Bush way: let’s vacation, and let the country rot away.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:55 pmWhy is there nothing about this
http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0807/House_erupts_in_chaos.html
on liberal blogs?
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:56 pmI heard the Iraqi Representatives are spending their vacation clearing the Bush ranch down in Texas.
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:58 pmHow come no mention on TP of tancredo’s plans to bomb muslim holy sites in the event of another terrorist attack on the US?
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:58 pmmongo: Are you trying to say that some sick-ass pagan shrines are more important than Democrats violating the rules and procedure in the Congress?
August 3rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm#21 Why is there nothing about this
http://www.politico.com/ blogs/ thecrypt/ 0807/ House_erupts_in_chaos.html
on liberal blogs?
Comment by Mr. Rove
Hey PudgeBoy kkkarl,
Do you consider Huffington Post a
? They had an article early this morning.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:00 pm#24 mongo: Are you trying to say that some sick-ass pagan shrines are more important than Democrats violating the rules and procedure in the Congress?
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
How comes that “violating the rules and procedure of the Presidency has never been a problem for Bush?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:02 pmmongo: Are you trying to say that some sick-ass pagan shrines are more important than Democrats violating the rules and procedure in the Congress?
Comment by Mr. Rove
WTF!!! A “pagan shrine”? You are now showing your ignorance and bigotry. Go back into mom’s basement and fondle your sister, OK? Leave the heavy lifting to the adults.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:03 pmGates features here in this pointed comment on his recent ‘Arming the dictators’ revival tour of the Middle East.
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/bombs.html
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm#27: Excuse me? Not Christian means pagan.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pmHow come no mention on TP of tancredo’s plans to bomb muslim holy sites in the event of another terrorist attack on the US?
Comment by mongo — August 3, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
HEY I HAD THAT IDEA, ABOUT, OH… TWO YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I SHOULD GO INTO POLITICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pmMr. Rove
Are you trying to say that some sick-ass pagan shrines are more important than Democrats violating the rules and procedure in the Congress?
Yes?
Your comment makes me think of the US edition of CNN this morning. Over 1k dead in the flooding on the Indian Subcontinent, and the top 5 stories were all about the bridge collapse. And the flooding story wasn’t even on the main page. Now it is, but it’s just over 1/2 down the headlines list, under at least 4 bridge stories and several other stories.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pmWhere was this outrage when the republicans did this? What is the stink about the Ag. bill
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:05 pmComment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
CNN’s new slogan: “What can ‘brown’ do for us?”
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:07 pm#31: So? American news corporations concentrate on news about events that affect Americans. I’m don’t care about flood victims on the other side of the world, but I do care about democrats suppressing votes in the Congress.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:07 pm#29 #27: Excuse me? Not Christian means pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
pa·gan /ˈpeɪgÉ™n/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-guhn] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.
–adjective 4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
6. irreligious or hedonistic.
If a muslim can be considered a pagan, also a protestant, just saying.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:07 pmPoor BushCo and the NeoCon Flying Circus trying to make a country into their personal oil field and Israeli Air Base.
They never bothered to stay awake during the History 101 when it was proven in Vietnam that Empire-building doesn’t work, especially when you use puppet governments.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:07 pmWhy is there nothing about this
http://www.politico.com/ blogs/ thecrypt/ 0807/ House_erupts_in_chaos.html
on liberal blogs?
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
The House has been in chaos since Gingrich and DeLay got their slimey hands on it.
Piss off.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:08 pm#35: Pedantic BS. Everybody agrees these days that if you’re not a Christian, you’re a pagan.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:08 pmNot Christian means pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
No it doesn’t
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:09 pm#39: Maybe that’s the case in the liberal la-la-land.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:10 pm#34 #31: So? American news corporations concentrate on news about events that affect Americans. I’m don’t care about flood victims on the other side of the world, but I do care about democrats suppressing votes in the Congress.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
You don’t care either for flood victims the other side of the USA, isn’t?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:10 pm“mongo: Are you trying to say that some sick-ass pagan shrines are more important than Democrats violating the rules and procedure in the Congress?
Comment by Mr. Rove”
More non-sequiturs from the right…
They’re unrelated events that happened to get mentioned within a couple posts of each other.
I take it you agree that it’s good foreign policy to nuke mecca and medina if there’s another terrorist attack.
As far as the house vote you’re referring to–this has been pretty standard procedure over the last 12 years or so when dealing with the minority party. Ooops, that’s the republic party now, guess you don’t like it any more than the democratic party liked it when delay pulled the same crap.
You should be thankful the democrats aren’t taking more pages out of delay’s and frist’s book (e.g. threatening the “nuclear option” to eliminate filibusters for the minority party).
BTW, it’s only going to get worse in 2009, when the republic party loses even *more* seats in both houses. Wait until the republic’s don’t even have enough votes to effectively filibuster any more, you’re going to be crying in your soup.
D’ya think bush will be invited to the republic party convention next year? Or will he be asked to stay home and clear brush?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:12 pmYou don’t care either for flood victims the other side of the USA, isn’t?
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
He’s reading The Piss-Soaked Troll Agenda ™.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:12 pm“#27: Excuse me? Not Christian means pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Here, go read the definition of paganism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan
This line in particular should interest you: “The term can be defined broadly, to encompass the faith traditions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.”
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:12 pm#38 #35: Pedantic BS. Everybody agrees these days that if you’re not a Christian, you’re a pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
You consider dictionaries pedantic? So much for home schooling. Boods are better for litting the chimney, isn’t?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:12 pm#42: I can see that you’re drooling over the possibility of a one-party system after 2009. How progressive.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:13 pm#39: Maybe that’s the case in the liberal la-la-land.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
I was tempted to open a discussion with you about your ideas until I saw you are a complete idiot who is here for juvenile amusement. Bet you were big on Fing around with CB radios back in the day. Kids….
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:14 pmNot Christian means pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
“The term can be defined broadly, to encompass the faith traditions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.”
So piss off and do your homework before you spout your Pseudo-Christian beliefs. But that is what you get from the Dobsons and the Falwells and the Robertsons of the world. And is why you sheeple still believe the earth is flat, too.
ANd have No Tolerance for anything you don’t understand. Now THAT is a perfect description of a Pagan.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:14 pm#46 #42: I can see that you’re drooling over the possibility of a one-party system after 2009. How progressive.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
Wasn’t a problem for the “little government” Republicans till now…
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:15 pm#42: I can see that you’re drooling over the possibility of a one-party system after 2009. How progressive.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
One-party system: Tom DeLay et al agenda since elected to Congress.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:15 pmI’m somebody and don’t agree Mr. Rove. Even your math will have to come to the conclusion that it’s not everybody. I wonder if the Pope believes what you say.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:16 pmcare to missuse the Pope for your own twisted math/ logic?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:16 pm#50 One-party system: Tom DeLay et al agenda since elected to Congress.
Comment by Zooey
Now can anyone imagine partying with that 10W30 oil head bug sprayer??? YECHH!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:17 pmThe Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi is considering resigning as well. If only Cheney would take his que.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:18 pmNow can anyone imagine partying with that 10W30 oil head bug sprayer??? YECHH!!
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
Hot Tub Tom, baby.
*retching*
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:19 pmOkay so this administration covers up their errors by saying gee we underestimated. What a bunch of swell guys, Heckuva job Bushie
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:21 pmNot Christian means pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
This kind of idiocy reminds me of another guy who said his definition of an atheist was anybody who didn’t believe in God — the same Christian God he believed in.
You can redefine words all you want. Call an olive a walnut if you want to, or call a jaguar a giraffe. It doesn’t make it so, and it only shows off your lack of education.
Now how did we get off-topic? Anybody want to take any guesses as to when Gates will retract his remarks and claim that the surge is “going well” in Iraq? How long does it take for marching orders to be delivered?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:22 pm“#42: I can see that you’re drooling over the possibility of a one-party system after 2009. How progressive.
Comment by Mr. Rove”
Who said anything about a one-party system (other than rove)? We just got out of that mess in 2006 when the republic party lost both houses of congress.
In fact, you (or at least your namesake) has been the only one cooing over the possibilities of one-party rule and doing everything he could in developing a republic party strategy to make it happen.
The republic party is only going to regain some semblance of support from people when their candidates start to publicly distance themselves from the policies that have held sway over the last 12 years. And they need to help undo the damage done by their recent leaders by joining with democrats to unwind the destructive policies of the bush-cheney administration.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:22 pmHot Tub Tom, baby.
*retching*
Comment by Zooey
But you would be closer to God, Zoo. For he is the poster boy of the Rightie “Christian”. AND……. he is from TEXAS!!!! YOO HOO!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:22 pmBut you would be closer to God, Zoo. For he is the poster boy of the Rightie “Christianâ€. AND……. he is from TEXAS!!!! YOO HOO!!!
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
Two great reasons to stay out of church AND Texas.
Mr Pee’s sorry-assed minions are particularly dull this morning, don’t you agree?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:26 pm#58 And they need to help undo the damage done by their recent leaders by joining with democrats to unwind the destructive policies of the bush-cheney administration.
Comment by mongo
We shall see how many repugs are TRUE Americans and will come out from under the slime-cover of the BushCo Cabal.
It is very clear that if they don’t most of them will be back home in ‘09 writing memoirs and scratching their collective crotches wondering….. was I that stupid for 6 1/2 years? And, of course, the answer will be a resounding YESSSS!!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:28 pm“The Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi is considering resigning as well. If only Cheney would take his que.”
Comment by hellinabucket — August 3, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
hell- forget taking his cue how about taking his job? I’ll personally purchase his one way ticket!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:29 pmTwo great reasons to stay out of church AND Texas.
Mr Pee’s sorry-assed minions are particularly dull this morning, don’t you agree?
Comment by Zooey
Zoo, as they say “You can always tell a Texan… but ya can’t tell them much”.
And, yes, I think the first team is at the KOS convention, learning how it REALLY works. This sorry-ass bunch couldn’t debate their dead Granny!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:30 pm#35: Pedantic BS. Everybody agrees these days that if you’re not a Christian, you’re a pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:32 pm——————-
100% Correct!
Mr Pee’s sorry-assed minions are particularly dull this morning, don’t you agree?
Comment by Zooey
Aren’t “they” all the same “one”?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 pmMr Pee’s sorry-assed minions are particularly dull this morning, don’t you agree?
Comment by Zooey
—
Who? The TP staff… well, I wouldn’t call them my minions, but sure, they are particularly dull this “morning” (”afternoon” if you are on the East coast… you know… the best coast).
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 pmComment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
I think a quick review of coastal geology will show the east to be a submergent coast while the west is emergent.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:35 pmAren’t “they†all the same “one�
Comment by dbadass — August 3, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Amazingly, I think they are mostly separate individuals, with a few who obviously use different names on a constant basis. But Mr Pee seems to be their king, so they should be considered “one” with Mr Pee representing their piss-soaked agenda.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:37 pm#57 Anybody want to take any guesses as to when Gates will retract his remarks and claim that the surge is “going well†in Iraq? How long does it take for marching orders to be delivered?
Comment by missmolly
OK, I will say by either Sunday’s talking head shows or Monday at the latest. It will be a “clarification”, written by PudgeBoy rover and the Darth cheney AEI Chickenhawk Kommand Korps.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:37 pm#64 #35: Pedantic BS. Everybody agrees these days that if you’re not a Christian, you’re a pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
——————-
100% Correct!
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:32 pm
And you trust your pastor, if he hasn’t been capable of teaching you the difference between “pagan” and “heretic”? How can you two believe in any interpretation of the Bible coming from him then?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:37 pmI think a quick review of coastal geology will show the east to be a submergent coast while the west is emergent.
Comment by dbadass — August 3, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
Excellent….
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:39 pmdbadass
I think a quick review of coastal geology will show the east to be a submergent coast while the west is emergent.
You take that back. East Coast FTW
Mr. Rove
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:40 pmEverybody agrees these days that if you’re not a Christian, you’re a pagan.
I find that comment to be both shallow and pedantic. Also, is this everybody in the bible belt, or everybody everybody?
I think a quick review of coastal geology will show the east to be a submergent coast while the west is emergent.
Comment by dbadass — August 3, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
So? I’m talkin’ ’bout the people, not geology.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:40 pmAnd you trust your pastor, if he hasn’t been capable of teaching you the difference between “pagan†and “heretic� How can you two believe in any interpretation of the Bible coming from him then?
Comment by Evil Spaniard
When your “pastor” is on the tv and your attendance is in front of the ol’ Zenith, it gets hard to stay on the message when Roid-rage Wrestling comes on another channel. They just can’t resist.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:40 pmMr. Rove: “Everybody agrees these days that if you’re not a Christian, you’re a pagan.”
Tully: “100% Correct!”
I wonder. Could conservative christians get any dumber than this? It’s hard to imagine. Could they be more arrogant. Again, hard to imagine. It will be news to the billions of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and athiests that they are “pagans.”
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:41 pmHow can you two believe in any interpretation of the Bible coming from him then?
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 1:37 pm
The same way they believe all the crap they fling around here?
;)
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:41 pmI wonder. Could conservative christians get any dumber than this? It’s hard to imagine. Could they be more arrogant. Again, hard to imagine. It will be news to the billions of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and athiests that they are “pagans.â€
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — August 3, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
—–
I’m a pagan.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:42 pmRet. Col. Jack Ripper
It will be news to the billions of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and athiests that they are “pagans.â€
Well depending on the definition, Hindus and Buddhists count as pagans, not sure what to but atheists under though.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:43 pmdbadass
I think a quick review of coastal geology will show the east to be a submergent coast while the west is emergent.
You take that back. East Coast FTW
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
We also have a great number of transform faultlines — so not only are we emergent, we are transforming the country. Woo hoo!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:44 pmSo? I’m talkin’ ’bout the people, not geology.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Well thanks for the compliment.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:44 pm#74 And you trust your pastor, if he hasn’t been capable of teaching you the difference between “pagan†and “heretic� How can you two believe in any interpretation of the Bible coming from him then?
Comment by Evil Spaniard
When your “pastor†is on the tv and your attendance is in front of the ol’ Zenith, it gets hard to stay on the message when Roid-rage Wrestling comes on another channel. They just can’t resist.
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Then, the answer is to create the WWPL series. You know, World Wrestling Priests League. Oh, and they must drive monster trucks to the ring.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:44 pmAnd you trust your pastor, if he hasn’t been capable of teaching you the difference between “pagan†and “heretic� How can you two believe in any interpretation of the Bible coming from him then?
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 1:37 pm
I’m sure their pastor was too busy teaching them other things.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:45 pmNow how did we get off-topic? Anybody want to take any guesses as to when Gates will retract his remarks and claim that the surge is “going well†in Iraq? How long does it take for marching orders to be delivered?
Comment by missmolly — August 3, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
September, when they delay the surge status report until December.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:45 pmSo? I’m talkin’ ’bout the people, not geology.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Well thanks for the compliment.
Comment by dbadass — August 3, 2007 @ 1:44 pm
You’re welcome. Just don’t get used to it.
(no need to thank me this time.)
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:46 pmWe also have a great number of transform faultlines — so not only are we emergent, we are transforming the country. Woo hoo!!
Comment by Zooey
Nothing sexier than Plate Tectonics Gotta love all that bumping and grinding and submergence.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:46 pmMr. Rove
Everybody agrees these days that if you’re not a Christian, you’re a pagan.
See…Mr Rove is an idiot of the stupidest kind.
First, he doesn’t know what pagan means.
Second, he says “everybody” although someone already disagreed with him.
Next, he’ll probably say “Well, Clinton did it too!!”
Keep it going Mr. Rove!! You are definitely showing us stupidity has no limits!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:48 pm“Purple fingers, remember? They are the representatives of the Iraqi people, like it or not.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
but the(y) quit. aren’t they free too.
Comment by Polus — August 3, 2007 @ 12:40 pmâ€
It’s going to be hard to come to a reconsiliation with the sunnis if their representatives have just walked out. This really is a bad turn. But, never mind, they’re on vacation now anyway! :D
Comment by DigDug — August 3, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
———————–
Well, it’s not going to be as hard now that the Sunni extremists have left…
Jeez… you Leftists really don’t care about the Iraqi people, do you?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:49 pmWe still love you, despite your faults..
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:49 pmNothing sexier than Plate Tectonics Gotta love all that bumping and grinding and submergence.
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
Heh. All that heat and moisture really get things moving. :D
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:50 pm“Purple fingers, remember? They are the representatives of the Iraqi people, like it or not.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
but the(y) quit. aren’t they free too.
Comment by Polus — August 3, 2007 @ 12:40 pmâ€
It’s going to be hard to come to a reconsiliation with the sunnis if their representatives have just walked out. This really is a bad turn. But, never mind, they’re on vacation now anyway! :D
Comment by DigDug — August 3, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
———————–
Well, it’s not going to be as hard now that the Sunni extremists have left…
Jeez… you Leftists really don’t care about the Iraqi people, do you?
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
—————
(Continued)
It does make sense though, you know… Clinton let nearly 1,000,000 Tutsis die in Rwanda in 1994.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:51 pmHeh. All that heat and moisture really get things moving. :D
Comment by Zooey
And that’s why we Westerners are so much more “active”!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:51 pmThe best part about this pagan side show, is that if he used the definition that google provides, he could cherry pick one of the definitions to support his claim that only Christians aren’t pagans. But apparently thats to much actual research for something that “Everybody” already knows.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Then, the answer is to create the WWPL series. You know, World Wrestling Priests League. Oh, and they must drive monster trucks to the ring.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 1:44 pm
So dated but still amusing…
http://www.gluck.net/jesus/
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:53 pmNothing sexier than Plate Tectonics Gotta love all that bumping and grinding and submergence.
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
Heh. All that heat and moisture really get things moving. :D
Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
Hey! This is a family website! You two keep your subduction zones to yourselves!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:53 pmtully: “Jeez… you Leftists really don’t care about the Iraqi people, do you?”
Says the guy who supports an administration which has killed hundreds of thousands of them. Yikes!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:53 pmIt does make sense though, you know… Clinton let nearly 1,000,000 Tutsis die in Rwanda in 1994.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
Now the troll pretends to care about Iraqis AND Tutsis.
Tell us another one!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:53 pmIt does make sense though, you know… Clinton let nearly 1,000,000 Tutsis die in Rwanda in 1994.
Comment by tully
WE HAVE A WINNER, FOLKS!!!! Tully has won the Stupidest Statement of the Day That Includes a Clinton Did It” award!
Go to your nearest Army Recruiter (or to Wal-Mart) to pick up your prize.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:55 pm>Why does Gates want Sunni extremists in the Iraqi govt? – lopuss
To balance out the Shia extremists that are currently running the government of Iraq.. you know, the same people who braindead Ronnie Raygun and Rumsfeld were helping hussien gas 20 years ago?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:55 pmZooey
Tell us another one!!
God exists and he cares.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:55 pmHey! This is a family website! You two keep your subduction zones to yourselves!
Comment by toasterhead — August 3, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
Hey if you can’t take the heat, get off the fault line!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:56 pmWell, it’s not going to be as hard now that the Sunni extremists have left…
Jeez… you Leftists really don’t care about the Iraqi people, do you?
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Contratulations. Now you have a faction without representation in the Iraqi government. Now, their only resort to be heard is more violence. Great job.
—————
(Continued)
It does make sense though, you know… Clinton let nearly 1,000,000 Tutsis die in Rwanda in 1994.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
So is better actively bombing 680.000 iraqis out of life, creating a diaspora of 2.000.0000 iraqis out of the country thanks to an illegal war?
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:56 pmGod exists and he cares.
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 1:55 pm
Ohhhhh, that is a good one. ;)
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:57 pmMaybe it was my difficulty finding the “subduction zones” which caused the “rift”.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:58 pmSo is better actively bombing 680.000 iraqis out of life, creating a diaspora of 2.000.0000 iraqis out of the country thanks to an illegal war?
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
Careful, Senor Evil. Death and mayhem get the trolls overly excited. :D
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:58 pmMARCUS TULLIUS CICERO
(sorry, my info was erased)
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pmSo is better actively bombing 680.000 iraqis out of life, creating a diaspora of 2.000.0000 iraqis out of the country thanks to an illegal war?
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Yea, tully has to believe in it…. after all, ya gotta fight the war you have, not the one you want! Of course, from the cockpit of his M-68 Dell Keyboard!
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pmMaybe it was my difficulty finding the “subduction zones†which caused the “riftâ€.
Comment by dbadass — August 3, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
That’s your problem right there! You’ll find the “rift” at the “divergent boundaries.”
Problem solved. :)
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:00 pmSo is better (?) actively bombing 680.000 iraqis out of life, creating a diaspora of 2.000.0000 iraqis out of the country thanks to an illegal war?
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
Can you rephrase, please?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:00 pmBut Shrub asks the generals on the ground what to do and then listens to them. Therefore the Surge is the idea of Gen. Gates.
There is a bus warming up in the parking lot, sir. The tire tracks have your name written all over them.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:01 pmThat’s your problem right there! You’ll find the “rift†at the “divergent boundaries.â€
Problem solved. :)
Comment by Zooey
I just love it when you get all Structural on us!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:01 pmIt does make sense though, you know… Clinton let nearly 1,000,000 Tutsis die in Rwanda in 1994.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
And how could Clinton have stopped that massacre? Please explain what a president like Bush would have done? Do you think he would have staged a massive military intervention like he did to stop the massacres in Sudan or Uganda or the DRC?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:01 pmCan you rephrase, please?
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
It’s perfectly clear. Try not being a moron, Mr Pee.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:02 pmSo is better (?) actively bombing 680.000 iraqis out of life, creating a diaspora of 2.000.0000 iraqis out of the country thanks to an illegal war?
Comment by Evil Spaniard — August 3, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
Can you rephrase, please?
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Of course: You’re an hypocrite
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:03 pmI just love it when you get all Structural on us!!!
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
The earth and I have been tight for years.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:05 pmSome say it’s just gravity…but I think there are real feeling there. ;)
Goddamn squegeeboo, I guess I am a pagan. I fit all of those, except for number 2 on the list, and that’s just because I don’t know what that means. And offensive only sometimes.
Depends on your definition of offensive. If using a tiny crucifix for a hitch pin on my trash trailer is offensive, I guess I fit them all!
HOOOOAHHHH! WHere’s the hedonistic pagan party this Saturday? I am in!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:05 pmEvil Spaniard
Of course: You’re an hypocrite
You wouldn’t do well on Jeopardy, thats not in the form of a question.
how about, What is, you’re a hypocrite. Instead.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:06 pmAnd how could Clinton have stopped that massacre? Please explain what a president like Bush would have done?
…
Comment by toasterhead — August 3, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
Oh OH! I know this one!!
Bush would go on vacation.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:06 pmOh OH! I know this one!!
Bush would go on vacation.
Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
That’s right! All that brush ain’t gonna clear itself, ya know.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:08 pm#116 Evil Spaniard
Of course: You’re an hypocrite
You wouldn’t do well on Jeopardy, thats not in the form of a question.
how about, What is, you’re a hypocrite. Instead.
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Thanks, I’m always open to learn more accurate troll bashing :)
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:08 pmTroll watching is such a fun sport. All those surveys of how much dumber and less informed Fox viewers are than those of any other outlet (MSM or otherwise) is displayed in this thread. What classic right wing stupidity shown on a single page. Priceless!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:09 pmZooey
Bush would go on vacation.
Incomplete answer, he would also fly a banner claiming ‘massacre accomplished’ while on vacation.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:09 pmI’ll take Troll Hypocrites for $200 Bob.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:10 pmMARCUS TULLIUS CICERO
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:10 pmOh OH! I know this one!!
Bush would go on vacation.
Comment by Zooey
No Fair!!! You peeked at the Air Force One Flight Schedules!!! (Plus it was statistically a good guess!)
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:11 pmIncomplete answer, he would also fly a banner claiming ‘massacre accomplished’ while on vacation.
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
Damn, you and your flare for the dramatic. Flying banners, Jeopardy answers in the form of questions — are you trying to give Martha Stewart the old heave-ho?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:11 pmtully
MARCUS TULLIUS CICERO
Explain what a populist Roman senator who wanted to go back to republican rule has to do with the thread?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:11 pmComment by toasterhead — August 3, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
TP will not let me answer as I would like, so I’ll keep it short.
Clinton could have targeted and killed Hutu Power leaders, jammed the radio waves so that the calls for genocide would not be transmitted, and he could have sent troops to break up the bands of interahamwe.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:12 pmMsJ,
The collective troll IQ can be found by adding up the amount of money donated to Rev. Pat Robertson, divided by the number of phone orders for Flow-bees.
-GSD
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:12 pmnanlichi
HOOOOAHHHH! WHere’s the hedonistic pagan party this Saturday? I am in!
I hear theres going to be punch and cake.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:13 pmExplain what a populist Roman senator who wanted to go back to republican rule has to do with the thread?
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
———-
That was a test post. I was trying to determine if TP had blocked my name, or if my posts were not going through because they were too truthful.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:13 pmNo Fair!!! You peeked at the Air Force One Flight Schedules!!! (Plus it was statistically a good guess!)
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
That was pure skill, upside00. I haven’t seen an Air Force Once schedule since I put that yellow elephant on the runway….fun times…
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:13 pmTroll watching is such a fun sport. All those surveys of how much dumber and less informed Fox viewers are than those of any other outlet (MSM or otherwise) is displayed in this thread. What classic right wing stupidity shown on a single page. Priceless!!
Comment by MsJ
Good observation, MsJ. We have often expressed that as well. But we do have to keep a few “mentally (and morally) challenged” trolls around. It helps with the intelligence diversity thing, ya know.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:14 pmWhat classic right wing stupidity shown on a single page. Priceless!!
Comment by MsJ — August 3, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
It’s true – we’ve got Christian Talibanism, U.S. isolationism, and blame-Clintonism all in one thread. A veritable Talking Point Trifecta!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:14 pmComment by toasterhead — August 3, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
TP will not let me answer as I would like, so I’ll keep it short.
Clinton could have targeted and killed Hutu Power leaders, jammed the radio waves so that the calls for genocide would not be transmitted, and he could have sent troops to break up the bands of interahamwe.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
If it happened, I would have been able to hear the shouts of “None of our bussiness”, “UN puppet”, “Policing the world”, “Fiscally Irresponsible” from the Republicans, without a TV set at my home city.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:14 pmClinton could have targeted and killed Hutu Power leaders, jammed the radio waves so that the calls for genocide would not be transmitted, and he could have sent troops to break up the bands of interahamwe.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
Hey Mr Pee, is this a “Saudis are not Muslims” moment?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:15 pmTully,
Oh yes, I can recall the plaintive cries of Tom Delay and Newt Gingrich and then Gov. Bush to intervene in Rwanda that were ignored by Bill Clinton.
Wait a minute, no I cant.
I think the Republicans were upside about a semen genocide on a blue dress though.
-GSD
Bush told a Rwanda survivor that genocide wouldn’t happen “on his watch” yet there have been 650,000 Iraqis killed and 200,000 Sudanese.
Heckuva job.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:15 pmComment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 2:02 pm
So is better try talk like lefty? Communicate good yea!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:15 pmtully: “Clinton could have targeted and killed Hutu Power leaders, jammed the radio waves so that the calls for genocide would not be transmitted, and he could have sent troops to break up the bands of interahamwe.”
So, I guess we can assume you are deeply disappointed in Bush for not doing these kinds of things in Darfur.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:17 pmyet there have been 650,000 Iraqis killed and 200,000 Sudanese.
That doesn’t necessarily make it a genocide.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:17 pmUpset, not upside.
-GSD
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:17 pmSo, I guess we can assume you are deeply disappointed in Bush for not doing these kinds of things in Darfur.
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — August 3, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
——
It’s not like we are the police of the world! The UN is handling Darfur.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:18 pmtully
That doesn’t necessarily make it a genocide.
What is it based off of percentages then?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:18 pmNeocommies, the lot of ‘em!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:19 pmtully
It’s not like we are the police of the world! The UN is handling Darfur.
Sooooooo, then why are you blaming Clinton? Is Clinton the head of the UN? I must have missed that memo.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:19 pmtully: “Clinton could have targeted and killed Hutu Power leaders…”
My, my, how soon we forget the realities of 90’s politics. I seem to recall that even when Clinton attempted to kill Osama bin Laden, republicans accused him of trying to change the subject from the much more important issue of blowjobs. In fact on the very day Clinton missed killing bin Laden by about 45 minutes, he had been forced to spend the entire morning in deposition answering questions about blowjobs.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:19 pmTully, I forgot, the Bush Republicans only know what something is when Bush tells them. It’s not privatizing social security, it is “personal accounts”. It is not domestic surveillance, it is “TSP”. It is not a civil war in Iraq it is ’sectarian strife’……..
-GSD
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:20 pmtully: “It’s not like we are the police of the world! The UN is handling Darfur.”
Sure. The UN was handling weapons inspections in Iraq as well before Bush kicked them out of there and attacked. Why doesn’t he kick them out of Darfur and get r done there as well?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:22 pmAlso, it is funny how the O’Reilly-bots are all atwitter over a silly Lieberman/Bush photo-shop when they have been making Monical Lewinsky jokes for 10 years now.
Funny stuff.
-GSD
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:22 pm#137 Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 2:02 pm
So is better try talk like lefty? Communicate good yea!
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Tsk, tsk, tsk, oratorial distracting tactics aren’t an invention of the USA speakers. You ought to know, being theoretically a classic (latin and greek) history student.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:24 pmWhy doesn’t he kick them out of Darfur and get r done there as well?
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — August 3, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
Well, you’ll have to ask r about that. Is he here?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:24 pmIt is not a civil war in Iraq it is ’sectarian strife’……..
-GSD
Comment by GSD — August 3, 2007 @ 2:20 pm
—————
I’d say it is both. But, that still doesn’t necessarily mean it is a genocide.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:25 pmyet there have been 650,000 Iraqis killed and 200,000 Sudanese.
I’m so sorry for them all. I’ll bet there were a lot of folks I would have found very interesting and would have liked to have gotten to know. Don’t like the term Genocide, fine but add the grieving survivors the impact on children, the elderly, and all the rest and it still adds up to just plain WRONG!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:26 pmtully, you’re the one who complained that Clinton didn’t save the Tutsi’s. If you have that complaint about Clinton, but happily look the other way when Bush ignores Darfur, people might get the impression that you are intellectually dishonest. You wouldn’t want that, would you?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:26 pmMr. Rove: ELECTIONS MATTER.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:27 pmTully: Nice try, hijacking a thread about the SecDef declaring that The surge is NOT working by playing the Clenis did it, too (TM). The point of this thread is to let us know that the Petraeus glass half-full report NEXT MONTH is nothing but spin – just ask the SecDef.
Someone called?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:28 pmComment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — August 3, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
Clinton knew about the killing in Rwanda in 1994, that is why he pulled out all of the Americans.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:28 pmRet. Col. Jack Ripper
people might get the impression that you are intellectually dishonest. You wouldn’t want that, would you?
He’s just happy to have anyone think he’s intellectually anything.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:31 pmONE EXCUSE AFTER ANOTHER
meanwhile lots of people are dying
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:32 pmClinton could have targeted and killed Hutu Power leaders, jammed the radio waves so that the calls for genocide would not be transmitted, and he could have sent troops to break up the bands of interahamwe.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
And then what? Revisionist history is fine if you stop the clock after 1994. But what would have happened in the later years if Clinton had sent 5,000 troops to Rwanda that UNAMIR wanted? As we have learned very well in Iraq, simply killing extremists and blocking their communication doesn’t necessarily keep them from re-forming. The underlying tensions that led to the massacre would not have gone away just because of U.S. intervention. They’re still alive and well more than a decade later – they just moved across the border into the DRC.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pmClinton knew about the killing in Rwanda in 1994, that is why he pulled out all of the Americans.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:28 pm
And you rigorously argued against this decision and advocated loudly for US involvement in this awful bit of history, correct? I don’t know you but I don’t think we met at any of the Rwanda awareness gatherings I went to during that time. So I can respect your heartfelt feelings about the tragic events which unfolded and pointless loss of life please tell me you were actively campaigning for greater US involvement in this matter during that time.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:35 pmWhat is it based off of percentages then?
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
—
It’s based off of the criteria determined by the “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide” of 1948.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:35 pmAnd you rigorously argued against this decision and advocated loudly for US involvement in this awful bit of history, correct?
——–
Actually, I was only 11 years old at the time.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:36 pmtully: “Clinton knew about the killing in Rwanda in 1994, that is why he pulled out all of the Americans.”
I see. So, in your mind, republicans, who had taken control of congress and were demanding a total withdrawl of all American troops from Africa, had nothing to do with it? Look, this is a non-argument. I agree that it was a mistake for Clinton not to do anything about Rwanda. CLINTON agrees that it was a mistake. He calls it his biggest mistake. If only we had a president now with the courage to even admit a mistake.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:36 pmtully: “Actually, I was only 11 years old at the time.”
OK, fine, so you don’t actually know what you’re talking about but reflexively spit out right-wing talking points. Great. Next!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:38 pm“Clinton did it, too” has NOTHING to do with the SecDef letting us know that the surge is not working and will never work, due to political intransigence be the different Iraqi factions. Spin that, Petraeus!
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:38 pmtully
It’s based off of the criteria determined by the “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide†of 1948.
Good news, it is Genocide then.
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
…any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
I’d say any kind of sectarian strife with murdering involved would count, due to (a).
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:38 pmtully sez:
tully, judging from the confusing and nonsensical mess that is your post #127, it might not be the best strategy for you to try to cast aspersions upon the posting styles of others.
Free advice. Take it if you wish.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:40 pmActually, I was only 11 years old at the time.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:36 pm
With all due respect you seem slightly unqualified to reflect then. I believe the Ret Col. JR #162 may help. Since you are clearly a humanitarian what do you think the best course of action relative to Darfur might be. Oh and will you be faulting W when your in your 30’s?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:40 pmI’d say any kind of sectarian strife with murdering involved would count, due to (a).
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
But there is still a legal difference between an “act of genocide” and “a genocide”
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:40 pmI see. So, in your mind, republicans, who had taken control of congress and were demanding a total withdrawl of all American troops from Africa, had nothing to do with it?
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — August 3, 2007 @ 2:36 pm
Well, to be fair – Republicans didn’t control Congress in April, 2004.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:43 pmtully: “But there is still a legal difference between an “act of genocide†and “a genocide—
Please explain what you think the difference is.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pmtully
But there is still a legal difference between an “act of genocide†and “a genocideâ€
Go on…
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:45 pmtoasterhead: “Well, to be fair – Republicans didn’t control Congress in April, 2004.”
Good point. As I said, in my opinion, ignoring Rwanda was a big mistake. Clinton has said it was one of his biggest mistakes.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:46 pmSorry folks… my internet is acting funny… anyway:
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — August 3, 2007 @ 2:36 pm
It is not a non-argument. Our current leaders look to the successes and mistakes of past leaders. That is how progress is made.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:46 pm#170 and #171
Hold on a minute.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:47 pmIt is not a non-argument. Our current leaders look to the successes and mistakes of past leaders. That is how progress is made.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
So Bush has been looking to Clinton? How about a little closer look at Baker/Hamilton
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:48 pmNo, tully, I meant that it’s a non-argument because I agree with you that it was a mistake by Clinton to not get involved in Rwanda.
Now, I’m still waiting for your explanation on why an act of genocide is different from genocide. Do you mean this in the sense that “attempted murder” is not treated the same way as “murder?”
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:50 pmRet. Col. Jack Ripper
Now, I’m still waiting for your explanation on why an act of genocide is different from genocide. Do you mean this in the sense that “attempted murder†is not treated the same way as “murder?â€
I believe he’s getting at, that while it may be a genocide, it is not such legally until some sort of world body declares it to be one. So Iraq is not legally a genocide, where as Rwanda was.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 pmIt is not a non-argument. Our current leaders look to the successes and mistakes of past leaders. That is how progress is made.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
As one example of leaders NOT learning from mistakes in the past, look at New Orleans. In the last 300 years, New Orleans has been battered 27, yes 27 times by hurricanes and floods. Each time it gets built up with dykes or water pumped out and each time it’s built bigger than the previous time. At what point does the leadership say NO MORE, New Orleans is moving. Costly, yes but more costly than the next disaster?
Anyway, this admin has not learned one thing from past success and failures.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:53 pmOk, here is the distinction from what I can gather by the remarks of Christine Shelley and the Clinton Adm.
An “act of genocide” not “genocide,” until all of the killing is over.
Again, that is according to Clinton’s people.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:55 pmGood point. As I said, in my opinion, ignoring Rwanda was a big mistake. Clinton has said it was one of his biggest mistakes.
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — August 3, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
Agreed, though I still wonder how much effect we actually could have had. If 150,000 troops plus 100,000 Blackwater mercenaries can’t stop daily genocidal acts in Iraq, I can’t imagine how 5,000 troops could have stopped it in Rwanda.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:58 pmNot Christian means pagan.
Comment by Mr. Rove — August 3, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
As a person who is a Pagan, this is a very ignorant and offensive statement. Everyone, please know that there are millions of people whose religion is a Pagan religion. Paganism as it is known in religious terms is someone whose connection to Deity is via their relationship to Nature. Pagans see Nature as the highest authority. We see Deity as immanent in the world. Since Nature is so diverse, we see that there are many forces that hold the power of life and death, forces that drive us as human beings. So we often see Deity as many instead of one. For instance the energy that moves through the human consciousness that is the energy that drives us to War is considered Deity. The ocean is a Deity, the forest. Love, Anger, Trade. These are Gods of human Nature. Some Pagans see this as aspects of One deity. Not all Pagans are polytheistic.
Pagans in general do not “worship” the Gods. We revere, respect, honor, and craft relationship with them. We do this because we gain a sense of connection to world around us. we gain wisdom, and most importantly, we find inspiration.
Examples of Pagan religions are Taoissm, Shinto, Hinduism, Druidry, Native Americans, Asatru, Wiccans, and dozens of other religions. They may not use the term Pagan but they all have a base in Nature and animism.
So please when speaking about Pagans know that you are talking specifically about millions of people who have a well developed sense of spirituality and religious practices. Also remember that Monotheism is a relatively new thing compared to Paganism. Paganism was the first religion and it never went away.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:00 pmtully
An “act of genocide†not “genocide,†until all of the killing is over.
Again, that is according to Clinton’s people.
Ok, cool, thanks for the distinction.
Now how does that apply to the discussion?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:01 pm>Clinton could have targeted and killed Hutu Power leaders
like the republicans were desparately trying to get him to do, right?
>But, that still doesn’t necessarily mean it is a genocide.
dead is dead. I doubt the dead people see the difference your quibbling abou. oh, I forgot, those Jews have the term “genocide” trademarked, right? lol
>It’s based off of the criteria determined by the “Convention on the >Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide†of 1948.
Gee, would that be a U.N. convention? The same U.N. that DIDNT in any way authorize the invasion of Iraq? It amazes me how the U.N is a selectively convenient tool for you to cite.
Scully, go back to what you’re good at.. having sex with your relatives, and stop burdering us with these feeble neurological spasms you call thoughts…
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:03 pm“Why is there nothing about this
http://www.politico.com/ blogs/ thecrypt/ 0807/ House_erupts_in_chaos.html
on liberal blogs?
Comment by Mr. Rove “
It is on the Huffington Post. But I suspect the reason why no other liberal blog has it is because it is from a single source, that source being politico.com, another right wing blog site.
Perhaps they are waiting for confirmation from a little less biased website or from interviewing people who were actually there. Just because Politico says it happened doesn’t mean it really did happen the way they reported it.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:04 pmbilbobaggins
The report itself hurts itself when it says some R’s claim A, while other R’s, D’s, and their aids claim B. I would go with the 3 to 1 advantage on this and call BS.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:09 pmComment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 3:01 pm
Because, Bush isn’t going to let Iraq turn into a full-blown genocide like Clinton did with Rwanda.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:09 pmtully
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:13 pmBecause, Bush isn’t going to let Iraq turn into a full-blown genocide like Clinton did with Rwanda.
But according to the “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide” it already is a(n act of) genocide. The difference here is that we helped cause it, as opposed to just ignoring it in Rwanda.
The difference here is that we helped cause it, as opposed to just ignoring it in Rwanda.
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
——————————-
Well, that is all the more reason to stay.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:14 pmThe difference here is that we helped cause it, as opposed to just ignoring it in Rwanda.
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
——————————-
Well, that is all the more reason to stay.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 3:14 pm
To finally reach the level of genocide instead the one of act of genocide?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:16 pmOh, and following your logic, the jews didn’t sufferred a genocide at all, isn’t? And I’m the one that doesn’t know how to read and write English?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:17 pmWell, to be fair – Republicans didn’t control Congress in April, 2004.
Comment by toasterhead — August 3, 2007 @ 2:43 pm
To be even more fair, Clinton wasn’t President in April of 2004 (and Republicans DID control Congress then). Could you possibly mean April, 1994 — when the Rwandan genocide began? I know, I’m just being picky.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:21 pmtully
Well, that is all the more reason to stay.
Sure, it is an argument for staying. I’ll give you that one.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:23 pmCould you possibly mean April, 1994 — when the Rwandan genocide began? I know, I’m just being picky.
Comment by missmolly — August 3, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
D’ohh!
Yes, that’s what I meant. My bad…
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:23 pmsqueege,
I suspect ROI= Return on Investment
Comment by bluefish —
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:32 pmOr
Reduce Our IdiotCount
ONE EXCUSE AFTER ANOTHER
meanwhile lots of people are dying
Comment by Tobey Tall — August 3, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
—————————————————-
Shut the fuk up, Toby. You’re kids won’t hear about it anyway.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:34 pm6. irreligious or hedonistic.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:34 pmWooHoo!@!
RUCerious
Reduce Our IdiotCount
Ridiculously Obvious Ichoice?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:34 pmNice, sqeegie!
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:37 pmback on topic…
Gates is certain to recant this once unka Karly has him pay a visit to the “office”.. heh.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:38 pmRUCerious,
Open invitation to the Pagan Party this Saturday. Hedonistic and non-Christian, and with any luck, offensive. Plenty of punch (spiked of course) and cake, both cheesecake and beefcake, to cover all tastes!
There’s going to be some dancing, some drinking, some wild sex…..
BTW, how was the fishing? Didn’t you claim to be vegetarian a few weeks ago? Or am I confusing you with some other levelheaded poster?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:43 pm“Why is there nothing about this
http://www.politico.com/ blogs/ thecrypt/ 0807/ House_erupts_in_chaos.html
on liberal blogs?
Comment by Mr. Rove “
What the hell does the above have to do with this topic, i.e. Gates skepticism?!?!
Go away!
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:46 pmoops… sorry Toby.
You’re = Your
hehehe…
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:52 pmnan ~ fishing is at the end of Sept, and no, I am, like most of my species an omnivore…
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:03 pmThanks for the invite, where is this bash bashing??
“The difference here is that we helped cause it, as opposed to just ignoring it in Rwanda.
Comment by squegeeboo — August 3, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
——————————-
Well, that is all the more reason to stay.
Comment by tully”
That’s a great idea. This is great logic. We can now simply do whatever we want, and then justify it whether it succeeds or fails.
Invasion of iraq succeeds? See, we were right from the beginning and look how well it turned out, now we’ll stay on to protect our allies and take our share of the oil we just liberated.
Invasion of iraq is a mess? Well, as americans we *have* to clean up our messes, so we *have* to stay and help settle things down. In the mean time, we’re just going to help ourselves to a little of this oil so that we continue helping.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:05 pmHot Breaking News:::
Bush’s failed policies in Iraq repeat his pattern of failure at every business venture he’s run into the ground!
Oh, wait, that’s not new news…Old News
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:08 pmComment by mongo — August 3, 2007 @ 4:05 pm
Yes, but I think this is a very hard issue that both the US and the UK have to address – yes I know the UK is the junior partner in this balls up but we are still involved.
I have to admit I keep coming to different conclusions (please feel free to call me a “flip-flopper” anyone as it’s a really constructive argument) as to what needs to happen. If we withdraw troops then it’s likely the blood bath will escalate. However, staying in Iraq isn’t really helping either. Will withdrawing and sealing the borders help? Perhaps but it depends on how much of the violence in Iraq is caused by internal players. No-one seems to be able to agree on this.
Surely the only option is to train up the Iraqi security forces – be that army, police etc – so Iraq can take hold of its own destiny?
Ouch, I’m getting a headache and going cross-eyed on this one…..
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:14 pm#207 Will withdrawing and sealing the borders help? Perhaps but it depends on how much of the violence in Iraq is caused by internal players. No-one seems to be able to agree on this.
Surely the only option is to train up the Iraqi security forces – be that army, police etc – so Iraq can take hold of its own destiny?
Ouch, I’m getting a headache and going cross-eyed on this one…..
Comment by UKBristolDave
Good post UK, And it points out one other major issue here: That BushCo (and to some extent the Tony B. Troop) did NO homework on what would happen. They were all warned and rewarned and chose to ignore reality and plow on in with no plan after the “Codpiece mission accomplished” comedy show.
So, even with an immoral diecision to illegally invade and occupy, they still were too stupid, or worse yet, too arrogant to take any advice or do any historical research on Iraq and its secular makeup and history.
So, it seems the argument as to the “Worst President in the World” is a Team effort and the BushCO team (with some Tony B help) wins in a landslide!
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:23 pmGates must tone down the rosy picture because the daily life of Iraqi citizens is not improving.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:25 pmRecently the ‘running water’ of Baghdad wasn’t – no power to run the water pumps.
RUCerious,
I caught some grief here at TP for going deep sea fishing a couple of weeks ago, but we released all of the billfish and kept all of the Mahi Mahi and tuna.
There won’t be too much of a hedonistic party, we are going to pick some chantrelle and porcini mushrooms to have with the Mahi Mahi, and probably drink too much wine. Too old to do much dancing.
In the White Mountains of Arizona. Probably not close to you, but you are invited.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:25 pmComment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
Great Response!!!
You really make a compelling argument… as to the status of Bush.
However, is that the issue here? Are you all just trying to prove that Bush f-ed up?
Because that is obvious to everyone, but that still doesn’t make it okay to let the sectarian killing go unchecked (and surely you do know that if the Coalition was not there, things would be a whole lot more bloody).
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:26 pmnanlichi
Too old to do much dancing.
Nonsense, you can dance if you want to, you can leave your friends behind, but if your friends don’t dance, then they’re no friends of mine.
tully
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:33 pm(and surely you do know that if the Coalition was not there, things would be a whole lot more bloody).
In the short term, but things will hopefully sort themselves out, which is basically our current plan anyways.
t is not a non-argument. Our current leaders look to the successes and mistakes of past leaders. That is how progress is made.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
Which imaginary leaders are you talking about? Bush fires any general that doesn’t toe the line. Bush has ignored his father and Clinton, and the result is what we see now; losing three wars simultaneously, committing acts of genocide, and displacing over 2 million people. Bush is the same as any other genocidal, crazy dictator, and should be treated the same. The Hague, then the gallows. And Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, Perle and Wolfowitz should join him.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:36 pmGood comments UK and upside00.
Discussions here are always better after the wave of troll guano moves on to other posts. There is no winning strategy in Iraq, or at least I haven’t heard of any. It’s all anyone’s guess as to what will happen when we leave. And it’s a WHEN not an if. We shouldn’t delay the inevitable leaving any longer. Yes it will probably be a bloodbath, but it’s a bloodbath now or it’s a bloodbath later after we have sacrificied nn more troops to get us to that point.
I personally think (here’s a grain of salt to wash it down) that AlQaeda will get the shit kicked out of them when we leave. We give them cover by presenting a common enemy that all Iraqis hate. When we are gone, they will throw the aliens out, like they did before Bush’s War.
The Repugnicunts are just stalling until they can leave office and let an adult make the tough call to pull troops out so they can say they didn’t lose the war.
Pretty sad way to waste lives, for their disgusting motives.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:36 pmnanlichi
I personally think (here’s a grain of salt to wash it down) that AlQaeda will get the shit kicked out of them when we leave.
OOoooh, you could even cite historical precedent on that one. Do some looking into what happened to some of the Algerian ‘terrorist’ groups once the French left.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:44 pmJust a note – those US casualty figures were reported before all the numbers were in. The total US deaths (according to icasualties.org) are now reported as 81 for the month of July, tied with February and March. Total coalition casualties were the third lowest for the year.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:44 pm“…if the Coalition was not there, things would be a whole lot more bloody).”
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 4:26 pm
Coalition?
what coalition?
did Palau send some troops?
cut the crap!
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:46 pmComment by nanlichi — August 3, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
I’m not sure. Firstly, I don’t think Al-Qaeda necessarily exists in the way it’s presented – a structured cell with a clear organisation. Jason Burke, in his book “Al-Qaeda”, argues that it’s basically become a global brand. As terrorist organisations compete with each other for coverage of their actions, what easier way can you get yourself on the lead story by claiming to be Al-Qaeda, the modern day bogeyman of the West. Al Qaeda as a coherent movement did exist but I feel it doesn’t anymore.
I’m also not convinced that Iraq will pull together as a nation. Iraq is a new nation state, cobbled together by British administrators (yes we screwed up again). The deep divide between Sunni, Shia and Kurd suggests to me that these links run deeper than any tie to the nation state.
I’m enjoying this as well. Different ideas discussed and no name calling or childish insults. Oh what the hell. nanlichi, you smell of poo! :-)
hehehehe
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:48 pmHowever, is that the issue here? Are you all just trying to prove that Bush f-ed up?
Because that is obvious to everyone, but that still doesn’t make it okay to let the sectarian killing go unchecked (and surely you do know that if the Coalition was not there, things would be a whole lot more bloody).
Comment by tully
True, the Bush Fuk-up issue is long settled, at least in the intelligent parts of the universe.
As to the violence, are we sure it would get that much worse? No more planning or study has been done on that yet either.
And SOME of the violence there is because we are there. And how do you get any stability when both extremes of their secular groups are militant?
Maybe the UN could come in and fix Dubya’s mess for him. They may not be as big and juicy of a target as anyione in a US uniform.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:49 pmComment by Tobey Tall — August 3, 2007 @ 4:44 pm
It’s a valid point Tobey. However, what’s the measure of dead Iraqi citizens this month? Does anyone have any figures?
Harsh as this may sound, I use that as an indicator of how Iraq is moving on compared to the deaths of US and UK troops. Our soldiers are, I feel, increasingly irrelevant in the carnage.
Please don’t take this as me saying I hate the troops. When a virtual civil war is going on the indicator of progress must be the deaths of nationals in that country.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:52 pmLivid Lib: “cut the crap!”
Don’t hold your breath.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:58 pmWith temperatures in Iraq edging close to 120 degrees Fahrenheit, there could not be a more dangerously inconvenient time for Baghdad’s decrepit infrastructure to fail on the delivery of water.
Residents and city officials said large sections in the west of the capital had been virtually dry for six days because the already strained electricity grid cannot provide sufficient power to run water purification and pumping stations,
http://www.iraqslogger.com/index.php/post/3811/Western_Baghdad_Loses_Water_in_Summer_Heat
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:01 pmWhatever al Qaeda in Iraq is or views itself as, close to 50% of them come from Saudi Arabia and will definitely leave the country when we pull out. For most of the foreign al Qaeda “insurgents,” our presence is their only reason for being there.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:02 pmComment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
This guy seems to think that the Coalition is, in fact, acting like “big baby-sitters,” and that it is the Coalition that is preventing even more violence than what we are currently seeing.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:05 pmPlease don’t take this as me saying I hate the troops. When a virtual civil war is going on the indicator of progress must be the deaths of nationals in that country.
Comment by UKBristolDave
I understand what you are saying here, and know you said “Nationals” but when I was in Vietnam, they tried to measure succcess by body count and it was a total failure, in many ways.
It also dehumanizes the whole process as the count just becomes so many commas, in Dubya and Tony Snow-job’s word. I find that to be so repulsive, especially when BushCo doesn’t want any of us back home to be “inconvenienced” by seeing caskets and pictures of wounded in Iraq. That is so disrespectful, it makes this Cabal the most anti-troop in the history of this country!
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:05 pm220 Uk Bristol Dave – hers the start
AUGUST first 2 days
Wednesday 1st: 3 GIs, 1 Brit, 178 Iraqis Killed; 188 Iraqis Wounded
Thursday 2nd : 3 GIs, 116 Iraqis Killed; 76 Iraqis Wounded
totals
6 US troops
294 Iraqis Killed
264 Iraqi wounded
——————
Even more interesting is Nato airstrikes killed 300 Afghan civillians which all media outlets have blanked except Aljazeera
http://english.aljazeera.net/English
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:06 pmnan ~ Heading up to Friday Harbor in the San Juan Islands for the weekend, but I promise I’ll dance a couple of dances for the pagans in Los Montanos Blanco…(my apologies to the spanish language..:0
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:07 pmUKBristolDave,
And you smell like stale fish and chips chap! Get the niceties out of the way first.
I am intellectually lazy to call them all Al Qaeda too, Ret. Col. Jack Ripper has the better description, the foreign insurgents.
I would be interested in hearing from Surge supporters (if there are any left here) whether they agree that Bush’s motive from now on is to stall and delay until he’s no longer in office, or if there is something else going on?
Or does he hold on by blind faith to the possibility that Iraq will pull itself together politically in the next year or so and prove us all wrong?
Or what? Why should we not pull out now?
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:12 pmWhat is this “coalition” tully keeps mentioning. How many members are in this coalition? Are we sharing responsibilities with willing partners? That’s great news. I haven’t heard about that. Can I get some details?
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:15 pmThis guy seems to think that the Coalition is, in fact, acting like “big baby-sitters,†and that it is the Coalition that is preventing even more violence than what we are currently seeing.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 5:05 pm
That is not what Michael Ware said.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:17 pmComment by Tobey Tall — August 3, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
Thanks for that. I believe that it backs my argument. This isn’t a success if a shade under 300 Iraqis died in two days. I have doubts about the figure (I’m got a History degree, it’s my want to doubt figures) as I’d say it’s almost impossible to get accurate data out of a country as chaotic as Iraq. However, even if that figure is inflated it’s still shocking.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:19 pmThat’s great news. I haven’t heard about that. Can I get some details?
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper
Welllllll……coalition just has a nice ring to it. Some of rover’s best work. But then, they can call it anything they want, the rest of the world already knows what it is.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:20 pmAnd what it is, is what comes out of the south end of a north facing male cow!
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:22 pmAnd what it is, is what comes out of the south end of a north facing male cow!
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 5:22 pm
“Male” cow? Not a country boy, eh?
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:24 pmActually I spent my youthful summers on my Gfather’s cattle ranch, but had to test the waters here. See who might pick up on that. Shoulda known it would be you, Z.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:27 pmI am intellectually lazy to call them all Al Qaeda too, Ret. Col. Jack Ripper has the better description, the foreign insurgents.
Comment by nanlichi — August 3, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Well, it’s what they call themselves, too, so it’s not all that lazy. Al Qa’ida in Iraq, aka Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn, aka Al-Qa’ida in Mesopotamia, aka Al-Qaeda of Jihad Organization in the Land of The Two Rivers is just one group in a loose Sunni coalition that’s sometimes fighting and sometimes cooperating with other Sunni groups in the quagmire that is Iraq.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:29 pmI believe upside00 is referring to the same beast that Laura joked about Boy George milking.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:29 pmThanks toasterhead,
I meant lazy in the way that the WH paints anybody who shoots at us as Al Qaeda. It’s easy and lazy to brand them all the same. And it obfuscates the differences and motives behind the people shooting at us when you call them all Al Qaeda and they “Hate us for our freedoms”.
A lot of them are shooting at us because they see us as invaders, or they lost a family member as collateral damage. If you lost a son to an invaders bullet or bomb, wouldn’t you be taking a few shots too? I would be the first one to volunteer to carry that heavy suitcase to NY.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:36 pmthe number of U.S. troops in Iraq represent >90% of the total.
You call that a coalition, tully?
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:39 pmI call it bull sh_t!
So do our troops.
Comment by nanlichi — August 3, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Damnit nanlichi, my reply to your early post hasn’t come up – cheers TP!
To précis, I challenged you to a duel at dawn as I smell of lager and kebabs and that we can’t pull out of Iraq until the Iraqi Government has the security forces needed to protect itself. Until it can do that it isn’t a sovereign nation
The main thing is the duel mind…hehehehe
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:41 pmA lot of them are shooting at us because they see us as invaders, or they lost a family member as collateral damage. If you lost a son to an invaders bullet or bomb, wouldn’t you be taking a few shots too? Nanlichi
But since no one in BushCo has lost anyone and are making billions, who cares?? As you say Collateral damage is like saying you have to squeeze some lemons to make lemonade. Then go shopping at Needless Markup!
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:42 pmComment by toasterhead — August 3, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
I posted something about this earlier. I’d argue that Al Qaeda has become a “brand” in the world of Islamic terrorism. Take a look at “Al-Qaeda” by Jason Burke. Very good read.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:43 pmThe main thing is the duel mind…hehehehe
Comment by UKBristolDave — August 3, 2007 @ 5:41 pm
Pistols?
Swords?
Thumbs?
Banjos?
Help me out here….
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:57 pmUpside00,
You can’t make an omelet without breaking a few legs. So casual, so sterile.
I have a picture of an Iraqi father holding the mangled body of his dead daughter and I can’t help but feel compassion, and a little fear when I look at it. I know what I would feel if I were in his shoes, and I am afraid that we haven’t seen but the tip of the iceberg of hate that we have created in Iraq.
What a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda! Bush as pResident on 9/11 was the best thing that could possibly happen for OBL, and the worst that could have happened for us.
And I accept the duel at dawn, UKBristolDave. Might have to wait a bit, unless we have a virtual duel, or maybe a chess match.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:58 pmZooey,
How about:
Quarters
Rock/scissors/paper
Beer pong
Lawn darts
Definitely not banjos though, I am not Republican and would get my ass kicked.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:02 pmYou call that a coalition, tully? I call it bull sh_t!
Well, actually I called it the “Coalition” out of respect for UKBDave.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:05 pmGates will not say what is apparent to most that the surge has failed. The surge was supposed to give Maliki enough breathing room to make the political concessions he needed to make the surge a success. The Sunni members have walked out and it is a reflection on Maliki inability to lead. No political progress has been made. No benchmarks have been met. We have more than 100 Americans dying everyday and the Iraqi parliament is on vacation. That is unacceptable. Until we set a deadline to get all our troops out in one year we will not see any action from Maliki. It is obvious that Bush’s policy of nation building and spreading democracy unilaterally by force has failed. It is time to get out of Iraq and focus on the real war on terror which is in Afghanistan.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:05 pmComment by nanlichi — August 3, 2007 @ 6:02 pm
Duel darts. That’s a real sport. The experts in it weigh about 22 stone, drink like it’s their last day on earth, wear awful gold jewellery and wear tacky, shiny shirts.
Hey, if you beat me nanlichi at least at my funeral they’ll be able to say he went the way he wanted to – in a battle to the death darts competition.
I’m going to call myself “Dave, the count” for it in dedication to the funniest line in a Carry on film ever. Apart from the infamy gag of course. I can’t see anyway of working that in.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:09 pmWell, once again the Bush underestimates their undertaking (and the public’s intelligence), overestimates their intelligence and skills (and the public’s gullibility), and makes a mess out of everything they touch.
Every time I think they could not possibly be any more incompetent, they surprise me with an even stupider decision -which is how Iraq got to be the absolute chaos it is now.
It’s sort of like a reversed Midas touch. That, they are good at. Credit where it’s due, I say.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:09 pmThat is not what Michael Ware said.
Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
——–
It’s not?
Funny, it sure sounds like it is.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:10 pmComment by Probus — August 3, 2007 @ 6:05 pm
100 Americans dying a day? Are you sure?
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:10 pmFunny, it sure sounds like it is.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 6:10 pm
He wasn’t advocating that the US ought to continue to be the big babysitter, and you know it.
Ware also said this, as part of the reason the killing has slowed:
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Definitely not banjos though, I am not Republican and would get my ass kicked.
Comment by nanlichi — August 3, 2007 @ 6:02 pm
Oy, my bad. No banjos. Just darts, shiny shirts and gaudy jewelry at dawn. I’ll bring the camera. :D
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:22 pmAlso, keep in mind that the Pentagon announced quietly about 3 months ago that it was going to change the way it counted deaths. It was something about not counting everyone involved in car bombings but analysts said it would have the effect of allowing the military to call out less killings.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:23 pmComment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 6:18 pm
First of all, he supposed to be disinterested… he is a journalist afterall.
Secondly, he is saying that the relative decline in sectarian violence is due to the US force.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:27 pmtully,
Not parsing too tightly here, but Ware is not saying the level of voiolence is down due to the presence of our troops, but without our troops the violence will be greater. Splitting hairs I know, but it could be that the reason the violence is down is because of the ungodly hot weather. A good comparison is the violence in the same month a year ago, which was about half of this year’s. And, as Zooey and Ware point out, there are fewer people to kill.
The bigger question is what difference does it make if we leave now or two years from now? If the situation isn’t improving and the level of violence will be the same after we leave then as now, we have only delayed the inevitable at a huge cost to us.
For what? What has the last two years bought us, except more deaths? Our presence may produce a lower short-term level of violence, but actually increase the total number of deaths (both ours and Iraqi) by staying.
I have to run, I need to buy some bling bling and gain some weight for my dart match. 22 stones is a lot I just found out.
Have a good weekend all.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:47 pmtully, I believe that more Americans have died in the last quarter than in any previous quarter. Do you think more American soldiers killed is a fair trade-off for a “relative decline in sectarian violence?” How long do you think we should spend American blood and money to attempt achieving declines in sectarian violence, some of which based on grudges centuries old?
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:49 pmDefinitely not banjos though, I am not Republican and would get my ass kicked.
Comment by nanlichi —
Watch it with the banjo jokes!!! Some of us here like to flail away.
BTW Zooey, could you steer me toward the Male cow answer?
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:56 pmSecondly, he is saying that the relative decline in sectarian violence is due to the US force.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 6:27 pm
I read it. I disagree.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:02 pmBTW Zooey, could you steer me toward the Male cow answer?
Comment by RUCerious — August 3, 2007 @ 6:56 pm
If you mean the question about what a cow is called after giving birth — decaffeinated.
I apologize. :-D
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:04 pmThe surge was supposed to give Maliki enough room to make the political concessions necessary. Yet no political progress has been made. The surge has failed. It is time for Bush to acknowledge that and pull out all troops from Iraq.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:22 pmI read it. I disagree.
Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 7:02 pm
—
Weeeellll……….. you’re wrong.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:24 pmThe surge was supposed to give Maliki enough room to make the political concessions necessary. Yet no political progress has been made. The surge has failed. It is time for Bush to acknowledge that and pull out all troops from Iraq.
Comment by Probus — August 3, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
——
The surge hasn’t failed. But at the same time, Maliki has not pulled through yet.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:26 pmComment by Probus — August 3, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
What are the immediate consequences of the US and the UK pulling out of Iraq? Surely it would further destablise the region?
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:26 pmComment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 7:26 pm
The surge was ill advised from the beginning. It was a poor concept. Progress in Iraq can only be made politically not militarily. The Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously came out against the surge. As did Gen. Casey. Bush went ahead with it anyway. No wonder it has failed.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:34 pmComment by UKBristolDave — August 3, 2007 @ 7:26 pm
No it would not destabilize the region. Iraq is already destabilized. Our presence in Iraq is used as a recruiting tool by the insurgents and al Qaeda. We are seen as an invading and occupying force. We must set a date to pull all troops out of Iraq. We can’t win this civil war. We can no longer baby sit Iraq. The Iraqis must now step up to the plate and take control of their own country.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:39 pm“I read it. I disagree.
Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 7:02 pm
—
Weeeellll……….. you’re wrong.
Comment by tully”
Oh yeah, well, YOU’RE a towel!
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:48 pmOh yeah, well, YOU’RE a towel!
Comment by Towelie — August 3, 2007 @ 8:48 pm
-
who r u?
August 3rd, 2007 at 9:37 pmWeeeellll……….. you’re wrong.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
No…..you are!!
And you’re a towel……apparently. :D
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:00 pmAnd you’re a towel……apparently. :D
Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 10:00 pm
And do you have your towel, Zooey? ;)
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:21 pmWe are a festering sore in the side of an already suffering country.
August 3rd, 2007 at 11:07 pmOur presence is a threat and a danger to every living soul in Iraq. We have no right to be there, no purpose to serve and no end in sight. We have a buffoon in charge. Our economy is staggering under the weight of the war, the national debt, and the soaring price of oil. The buffoon allows his buddies to rape and pollute our resources while he pumps more bombs into the arms of anyone who will buy them. For instance, we buy Saudi oil at nearly 80 bucks a gallon, and they use the money to buy our military equipment. Why? Let me tell you, both sides are losing in that exchange. The American public pays heavily at the pump. The defense companies make terrific profit. The middle east gets more killing machines. More people will die, the price of oil will continure to rise. It will solve nothing. We are helpless, apparently, to stop this because, as Dickie explained on Larry King, it means money, honey!
we are all doomed. This country hasn’t the balls to toss a spinning drooling clown our of office, let alone solve the coming ecological crisis. Gates almost said something today and ended up saying nothing? Wow. There’s news. There’s another non-step in a non-direction.
Towelie says: Don’t forget to bring a towel…!
August 3rd, 2007 at 11:28 pm