Media Revelations From YearlyKos: Bloggers Aren’t ‘Chaotic,’ Carry Political ‘Clout’
Media Revelations From YearlyKos: Bloggers Aren’t ‘Chaotic,’ Carry Political ‘Clout’
As you may have noticed, blogging has been lighter than usual the past few days. ThinkProgress is in Chicago for the second annual YearlyKos conference, with more than 1,200 bloggers, blog readers, activists, politicians, journalists, and other progressives.
Much of the media coverage hasn’t been especially earth-shattering, focusing on the same themes they wrote about last year: 1) many liberal bloggers don’t fit into the stereotypes the media has created, 2) liberal bloggers are respected (and feared) by politicians, and 3) liberal bloggers disagree about stuff. Some highlights so far:
U.S. News and World Report, Cyberactivists Are A Must-See For Candidates: The prominence of the upcoming event, which features 200 speakers and is expected to draw crowds of more than 1,400, may be a wake-up call for the less Internet-savvy organizations and candidates.
‘Net Roots’ Event Becomes Democrats’ Other National Convention: There is no one leader, the name of the convention notwithstanding, and it’s a disparate, unorganized community that’s almost impossible to categorize. While the leading bloggers are in their 20s and 30s, the rank-and-file are older, in their 40s and 50s.
New York Magazine, Dispatches From The YearlyKos Convention: No one naked around here. No chaos at YearlyKos. No “sweet smell of marijuana,” as the straight papers used to refer to it. No demands for revolution. No denunciations of bourgeois democracy. The Democratic National Committee Chairman is listened to respectfully and cheered enthusiastically.
Seattle Post Intelligencer, “Net Roots” Activists Carry Political Weight: It’s earnest enough to be a little amusing, but these are serious people intent on taking back their country, with the dream of an America run not through Washington, D.C., spin, but with active participation by the governed.
Chicago Tribune, YearlyKos Forum A Magnet For Bloggers And Pols: And anyone who doubts blogger clout should consider this: seven presidential candidates, the two top congressional leaders and the Democratic Party’s chairman will all stop by to pay their respects.
MoJoBlog, Gristmill, DCist, and Ezra have updates from some of the conference’s panel sessions.
View photos from the conference HERE and watch the sessions HERE.
UPDATE: Devilstower at DailyKos has more.
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Uniformed Serviceman shouted down at YearlyKos: http://www.prospect.org/ csnc/ blogs/ tapped_archive?month=08&year=2007&base_name=post_4468#017493
As the Military and Progressives panel came to an end, a young man in uniform stood up to argue that the surge was working, and cutting down on Iraqi casualties. The moderator largely freaked out. When other members of the panel tried to answer his question, he demanded they “stand down.” He demanded the questioner give his name, the name of his commander, and the name of his unit. And then he closed the panel, no answer offered or allowed, and stalked off the stage…
———————————————————————————-
I guess the Left just can’t handle even the slightest dissent.
Sad.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:29 pmKos is a zero, hell we’ve got 4400 active posters at Dummieland why don’t they listen to us?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:32 pmwhat a shock ,liberals praising liberals.Whats next???No hate for Fox News?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:33 pmActually, I’ve watched Kos members pile-on to posters they didn’t like. I’ve also seen those Kos “monitors” or whatever they are vote to ban rational people and their comments because other ‘regulars’ disagreed, and even baited them.
Kos isn’t any better behaved than other sites, red or blue.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:38 pmI didn’t know about that voting thing:
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:41 pmI vote to ban hanshiro, Chris, and ringo.
I guess the Left just can’t handle even the slightest dissent.
Sad.
Comment by Ringo — August 3, 2007 @ 2:29 pm
We tolerate you.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:42 pmLet’s wait and see what really happened and not take the word of a troll.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pmI guess the Left just can’t handle even the slightest dissent.
Sad.
Comment by Ringo — August 3, 2007 @ 2:29 pm
At least he was allowed into the meeting, more then I can say for Bush’s phony “town hall” talks, where any who may dissent aren’t allowed in. Wouldn’t want to burst the bubble.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pmWas the “military man” really Jonah Goldberg wearing a bellhop costume from a Hilton Hotel?
-GSD
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:45 pmPretty good for a “fringe” movement. Looks like we’re up against the lunatic status quo.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:46 pmwhat a shock ,liberals praising liberals.Whats next???No hate for Fox News?
Comment by Chris — August 3, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
I believe sociologists have a term for group supportive think. It is not a left/right thing. It is more of a human nature thing. Ever been in a sports bar or belonged to a fraternity? Pretty much the same deal. Humans being social animals seek reinforcement from the social group. “Dittos” comes to mind. It’s all just a way to try to define your membership. I’ll bet you use the phraseology and body language typical of your social coherts.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:46 pmRingo:
This soldier was in uniform, speaking his views? Isn’t that prohibited by the UCMJ?
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:48 pmChris will probably think you’re advocating Socialism.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:49 pmLet’s not let the rules get in the way.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:49 pmTMM,
if you read the article, that is why the moderator shut down the panel. Not because of the opposing view. I noticed Ringo left that out of his post in his haste to disparage the convention.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:50 pmBill O’Reilly faints
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:50 pm#11
Lets see if the same fate awaits this young man.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 pmI believe he is allowed to ask a question, just not allowed to support a political cause or candidate…..although I’m not certain. Never-the-less, when did it become the job of Kos to enforce military regulations?
You can bet that if he had started talking about the surge as a failure they would have allowed him to speak.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:52 pmTo Ringo: If you had bothered to read the rest of the link you posted, you would have gotten an explanation for that incident. Here’s the rest of it:
“Wes Clark took the mic and tried to explain what had just occurred: The argument appears to be that you’re not allowed to participate in politics while wearing a uniform, or at least that you shouldn’t, and that the questioner was engaging in a sort of moral blackmail, not to mention a violation of the rules, by doing so. Knowing fairly little about the army, I can’t speak to any of that. But it was an uncomfortable few moments, and seemed fairly contrary to the spirit of the panel to roar down the member of the military who tried to speak with a contrary voice.”
Having worn a uniform myself, I know that when you are in uniform, you don’t make political statements. Wes Clark knows this as well. That said, I probably would have allowed him his say, and then responded to his point with facts, not putdowns.
Now the question is — if the young man was a civilian and raised the point he did, would he have been treated with respect? Maybe. I would hope so. But even if he wasn’t, the blogger reporting this incident DID say it “seemed fairly contrary to the spirit of the panel”, suggesting to me this was an exception, and not the rule of the convention. I figure the wingnuts will scour all blogs about the convention in order to cherry-pick anything that will support their view that we lefties are intolerant.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:52 pm#15 / #11
this should have been attached:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ news/ nationworld/ chi-protest_bdjun24,1,6107995,print.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:52 pmMarcus Aruelius sez:
Actually, let’s. The rules ‘got in the way’ quite a bit for Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh…it’s only fair to assume they will in this case as well…unless, of course, you only get punished for speaking against the official position.
Should be interesting.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:53 pmI didn’t know about that voting thing:
I vote to ban hanshiro, Chris, and ringo.
Comment by dim wit
Lol indeed. As far as “At least he was allowed into the meeting,” why is humiliation better than exclusion? Once his views were known, the monitor/moderator apparently behaved condescendingly; rather similar to exclusive, RNC types. Kos’ members don’t have an immunity to arrogance, particularly, as stated, their members disappear comments (and posters) they disagree with into the ‘memory hole.’ (To be perused only by other approved monitors.) Creepy.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:55 pmOnce his views were known, the monitor/moderator apparently behaved condescendingly.
A behaviour familiar to Bill O’Rielly. I hate that man. I hope this incident wasn’t of the type that Bill does daily. A truly despicable approach to dialog.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:00 pmI think what drives the lunatic right wing crazy, is despite attempts to paint this convention, and all liberal blogs as crazy, radicals. The convention is well attended, and clearly many of the democrats know that this will be a huge step up, or a leg down for them among liberals. I guess the people making decisions instead of a daddy figure bothers them.
So Ringo tell me about your father.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:01 pmI guess the Left just can’t handle even the slightest dissent.
Comment by Ringo
Don’t be so hard on yourself. You are not slight.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:01 pm2) liberal bloggers are respected (and feared) by politicians,
Well, that’s very Machiavellian of them!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAhahAhHAHahA!!!!!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:03 pmSo, any thoughts on whether the “young man in uniform” may be in violation of the UCMJ?
It’s funny how this was such a huge issue when Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh voiced his views in a set of fatigues with the insignia removed, but the trolls are curiously silent on this issue now, now that the uniformed man in question is parroting the party line.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:04 pm# 1
That doesn’t suprise me at all.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:07 pmProgressive bloggers can make a difference, if they demand that Democrats in DC do their jobs or they will vote them out of office.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:07 pmdbadass
To some degree what you say is true of all humans, however we thankfully also have people who ( like all those heros at the bridge collapse) THINK FOR THEMSELVES.
I admire them all.
Group think when it comes to positive, compassionate action, versus negative group think that allows people to step over a wounded human in a quickie mart.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:08 pmBoth types of people exist. I contend that both reactions are in each human, they choose which to follow and that defines their charachter.
It seems to me the cowardly, negative group think people tend to be Repiglians.
‘The lineups of seminars Friday include such titles as “Blogging Foreign Policy” and “Networked Public Diplomacy.” ‘
I’m kind of jealous. That sounds like good stuff!
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:09 pmI find Ringo’s outrage hollow. It’s been standard GOP procedure to push out any dissenting voice at conventions and campaign stops.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:11 pmthe other problem with Ringo’s outrage, is it doesn’t sound like this guy was actually asking a question, just disrupting the panel.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:12 pmBiggest problem in DC are politicians who have held office for more than 20 years, like Rep. John Conyers. Staying in office too long causes senility, and rigidity, so therefore old incumbents must be forced to retire or voted out of office. It does not matter if an R or D is after their name.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:14 pmI think that the incident described IN FULL by Ezra Klein demonstrates one of the virtues of the Left: we’ve always been pretty bad at GroupThink. Yes, there are goofballs on the Left. Yes, there are people with closed minds. But there has always been a constant discussion of ideas and opposing opinions, as the one Klein expressed makes clear, as does the explanation given by a member of the panel.
For contrast, look at any of Max Blumenthal’s videos from a “conservative” conference. Without fail, at some point Max simply gets booted off the premises. Period.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:14 pmRingo isn’t outraged, he is just pointing out the hypocrisy of the Left.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:16 pmThe other other problem with Ringo’s “outrage” is that he doesn’t seem to be too outraged at what looks to be a clear violation of the UCMJ.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:18 pmTo point out the hypocrisy on one side but ignore the other is……..
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:21 pmthe other problem with Ringo’s outrage, is it doesn’t sound like this guy was actually asking a question, just disrupting the panel.
Comment by Krazny
I’ll point out that this feels very like framing someone to justify their treatment. While Kos has doubtless advanced a number of issues, their monitors/’regulars’ have also labeled dissenters “trolls” to also justify their banishment/censure. To be sure there are a host of people on any blog who deserve their removal, but I have witnessed rational people disagree and get the bum’s rush and the comments disappeared. (Even after being insulted and abused by ‘regulars.’) There is a lot of backlash on the web about this treatment by Kos members and they cannot all be disruptive trolls, however convenient this would be to the purported ‘inclusive’ image of Kos.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:22 pmPerhaps Hanshiro,
I don’t post at KOS at all, nor do I read it much. I prefer the format at TP. I don’t know that any blog forum is all that good to be honest. The Yahoo forums shut down posting, because they had a handful of nutcases overunning every thread. Same happens here sometimes as well.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:25 pmI’d wager my left arm that the “young man in uniform” was a plant. The “surge” is no less a marketing term from the Propaganda Ministry than was the War on Terror in general and the following, specifically: “smoke ‘em out”, “mushroom cloud”, “fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here”, “they hate our way of life”, etc.
All of this “through the looking glass” bullshit gets foisted on all of us by the usual rightwing “think” tanks and deep-pocketed sleazeballs that have been trying to destroy this country for the have-nots for 30 years.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:26 pmIf you want to discuss hypocrisy we can always talk about our good friend david vitter…..
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:26 pmThis soldier was in uniform, speaking his views? Isn’t that prohibited by the UCMJ?
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
UCMJ? Not sure (I’ll look it up if you want). Allowed? Nope!
He is allowed to speak his mind, attend rallies and protests anytime he wants. He must be on pass or leave and although he can SAY he is in the Military, he is not allowed to do so in uniform.
The reason being that it could appear that he is speaking as a representative of the Army, as opposed to just stating his opinion. The uniform could give his comments extra weight or significance.
His wearing of the uniform while stating his opinion implies that the opinion stated is approved and/or endorsed by the branch of service of the uiform he is wearing.
He blew it, plain and simple. Had he been in civvies and said whatever he said, then there would be no military backlash (there likely will be now). However, had he been in civvies and stated his opinion about the surge and his military affiliation, I feel like he would have been asked to produce his ERB before his comments were even allowed.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:26 pmtully sez:
Three things, tully:
1) Tell me, if someone tried to stand up at a gathering of neocons and make a statement that the surge was failing, just how long do you think he would be allowed to speak? You don’t get to bandy about the word “hypocrisy” if the opposing side would have done the exact same thing, and that’s exactly the behavior we do observe in the neocons on a regular basis.
2) There’s a little thing called “objective evidence” that’s not really on your side. I know it hurts, but it’s true. The surge is not succeeding, and if the people at YearlyKos don’t think an administration plant grandstanding and spouting demonstrably false propaganda is worthy of their time, you’re just going to have to deal with that.
3) The reason that the speaker was not allowed to continue, according to Wes Clark, is “The argument appears to be that you’re not allowed to participate in politics while wearing a uniform, or at least that you shouldn’t, and that the questioner was engaging in a sort of moral blackmail, not to mention a violation of the rules, by doing so.” Again, this comes back to the issue of possible violations of the UCMJ, which you and your fellow trolls are trying so hard to dance around. Why can’t you address this? I seem to recall that your ilk had no problem condemning Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh for a similar breach of regulations…why the double standard? That’s the very definition of ‘hypocrisy”.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:27 pmThis looks like a crowd of people who play the board game risk…lets say you created a treaty with one person and on your next round you break it and invade north america…is the right reaction from the dude owning north america to throw a temper tantrum and quit because he “can’t play with people who don’t keep their promises”…am I wrong for breaking up North America, he would of got five extra units…
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:27 pmComment by hanshiro — August 3, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
What you describe is bound to happen where “the people” are given banning/deletion power. I still prefer it to the red sites I visit where an all-powerful administrator is the only one granted these powers.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:29 pm#38. Comment by Krazny
Agreed.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:29 pmComment by TripMaster Monkey
You do know that “tully” is Mr Pee, right? You’re expecting cogency all of a sudden?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:32 pmNow look at the majority of the postings here. Not blind bashing of a man in uniform, or his viewpoint. there are a variety of viewpoints and rationale thoughts expressed. Not a knee jerk reaction but more questions to better understand the event.
This is why I like TP.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:35 pmWhat you describe is bound to happen where “the people†are given banning/deletion power. I still prefer it to the red sites I visit where an all-powerful administrator is the only one granted these powers.
Comment by erock
I agree it’s a consequence of that type of system, but it is no more fair than the red sites. Arrogance is still the order of the day and apparently a small clique of monitors can group together and bully the site members in the name of the site owner. Little difference in an “all-powerful administrator” (King) and an abusive ruling party. Sound familiar?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:35 pmgummitch sez:
No, I did not know that…”tully” seems to be making at least a token effort at proper sentence structure…something that Mr. Pee couldn’t be bothered with.
But actually, my comments are aimed at no one in particular…any troll who wants to wear the big boy pants can step up and discuss this. It’s funny how quiet they’ve become… ^_^
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:37 pmTMM
“1)”
But the N**cons are upfront with it. They tell you flat out that you are not welcome, so that is not hypocrisy.
“2)”
I don’t believe in absolute objectivity.
“3)”
All I said is that I wasn’t suprised, and that Ringo is not outraged. I don’t believe in emotional blackmail at all. That’s why I don’t respond to Tired of Fighting.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:46 pmgummitch sez:
You do know that “tully†is Mr Pee, right? You’re expecting cogency all of a sudden?
No, I did not know that…â€tully†seems to be making at least a token effort at proper sentence structure…something that Mr. Pee couldn’t be bothered with.
This is from another thread:
MARCUS TULLIUS CICERO
(sorry, my info was erased)
Comment by tully
To me, the tully comments are all typically Mr Pee, but the alias is the biggest giveaway.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:47 pmRinko did a good job of disrupting this thread, just like the uniformed soldier did at YKos.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:48 pmI think the netroots phenomenon is going to put the old white guy good ol boy at a disadvantage, as their understanding of how tubes are used is somwhat lacking…
gummitch,
Or you might have noticed that I never tried to hide my identity:
Jeez… you Lefties are slow.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:50 pmAmanda — It’s the New Yorker, not New York Mag., that wrote that . . . .
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:52 pmComment by hanshiro — August 3, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
You would prefer to have every registerd DailyKos member vote as to whether or not a single user should be banned or have his/her comment deleted?
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:52 pmJeez… you Lefties are slow.
Comment by tully
Some of them, maybe. And honest. Which allows dishonest people to take advantage of them, for a time.
I doubt many of the regulars were fooled at all, though. You’re just not that clever. At all.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:54 pmthe internet is such a good cover for the morons of the world, anyone with a brain knows this and ignores their ridiculousness(or tries to) online just like we do in person. If say, Ringo, got up and spewed his moronic comments in public(never being able to link to a valid source for his comments) everyone would ignore him,never invite him again, etc. but here we have to contend with them. One of the issues free speech gives us. The “red” sites are incredibly controlled, some idiot monitors according to HIS views and deletes and bans any dissention and posts invalid unsubstantiated “news” stories, it’s no wonder these Repigs believe this crap, they don’t bother to CHECK for themselves. The sign of a true wimp and also of someone who does NOT believe in Free Speech unless he is the one speaking.
If you are net saavy even a little bit, you learn to ignore the moronic comments and focus on the brilliant, well thought out ones. That is why sites like this one and KOS, Firedoglake, Next Hurrah, TPM have such ENORMOUS readership and the wingers sites don’t. Of course KOS gets some nutjobs posting diaries there, so what. The MAJORITY of what you can learn there is amazing. I love reading news and then being able to verify it MYSELF by following up on provided sources. This is one reason why the net “works” for Dems but not for Repigs, they can’t back their BS up, they can’t site sources because their posts aren’t VALID, it’s just all hat and no cattle, just like this moronic president.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:56 pmThe net has given all of us a voice, even the racist, closeminded, selfserving dumb ones but it’s still the best thing since the invention of the printing press as Dean points out in his speech at KOS.
and focus on the brilliant, well thought out ones.
You’re referring, of course, to MY comments, right? C’mon…my ego can’t take the suspense.
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:58 pmOK Sarge, are you wearing your uniform right now? Not that I’m implying you should take it off, er…
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:00 pmtully sez:
Yes, it is. When you squelch opposition views at your functions, you don’t get to yammer “hypocrisy” when you find your views squelched at the opposition’s functions. That fact that you think that it’s OK when the neocons do it, because they’re “upfront” about it, speaks volumes about your moral bankruptcy.
And there we come to the crux of the issue. What a remarkably neocon statement to make.
It’s the neocons’ psychotic refusal to acknowledge the realities of the situation that has gotten us into this mess. You can deny the ocean all you like, but if you step in it, you’re going to get just as wet.
Way to sidestep the question. Too bad I’m not going to make it that easy for you.
By appearing in uniform and speaking his views at a political event, this “young man in uniform” seems to have violated the UCMJ. Care to comment, or are you going to try to dodge the question again?
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:01 pmOK Sarge, are you wearing your uniform right now? Not that I’m implying you should take it off, er…
Comment by RUCerious
I am. So no, I ought not to be here, technically. But I am able to work in one window and di(ker off in another.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:02 pmthe only reason Sgt Higgins is in uniform is he and his wife like to play the naughty seargent and the nurse during lunch.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:04 pmYou’re just not that clever. At all.
Comment by gummitch — August 3, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
————
ummmm… I claimed to be M* *ee right off the bat….
Do you think I was trying to use some kind of double-reverse psychology?
Ha! You Lefties crack me up sometimes!
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:04 pmYou would prefer to have every registerd DailyKos member vote as to whether or not a single user should be banned or have his/her comment deleted?
Comment by erock
Not at all. I have, however, watched blatant abuse and baiting by several monitors with no reprimand whatsoever. Is it preferable to have several abusers rather than one? They are apparently immune to punishment, despite their abuses, as they are considered ‘regulars.’ Again, rather like RNC or even FOX conributors.
I don’t think either system, King or ruling party, is a particularly enlightened one as both have resulted in widespread abuses, but the idea that Kos is more inclusive or less insular is just not borne out by reality. Different people, but similar clique-ish, protective behavior.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:04 pmJay Randal, you mention that “Progressive bloggers can make a difference, if they demand that Democrats in DC do their jobs or they will vote them out of office.”, but actually the House has had more votes on the floor already this year than the GOP led 2006.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:05 pmthe only reason Sgt Higgins is in uniform is he and his wife like to play the naughty seargent and the nurse during lunch.
Comment by Krazny
lmao, I wish!
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:07 pmWhy would the dem candidates attend this conference rather than the more distinguished and moderate (in tone) DLC conference? It must be true that the ‘roots are feared, the question would be “why”?
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:09 pmWhen you squelch opposition views at your functions, you don’t get to yammer “hypocrisy†when you find your views squelched at the opposition’s functions. That fact that you think that it’s OK when the n**cons do it, because they’re “upfront†about it, speaks volumes about your moral bankruptcy.
I didn’t say it was “OK” I said that it was not hypocrisy. Is Larry Flynt a hypocrite for exposing the sexual practices of gay politicians, when his mags feature lesbians? I don’t think so. He is pointing out hypocrisy, but, like the n**cons, he is not a hypocrite.
And there we come to the crux of the issue. What a remarkably neocon statement to make.
It’s the neocons’ psychotic refusal to acknowledge the realities of the situation that has gotten us into this mess. You can deny the ocean all you like, but if you step in it, you’re going to get just as wet.
Okay.
Way to sidestep the question. Too bad I’m not going to make it that easy for you.
By appearing in uniform and speaking his views at a political event, this “young man in uniform†seems to have violated the UCMJ. Care to comment, or are you going to try to dodge the question again?
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — August 3, 2007 @ 4:01 pm
Sure.
I don’t think he should have violated the UCMJ. But the Cooze-hacks are still hypocrites.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:10 pmlike to play the naughty seargent and the nurse
is that anything like “the violin lesson”??
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:10 pmWell, if some poor victim in uniform wants to flout the law of the land and the UCMJ at a lefty convention by yapping out lies and propaganda, I guess some booing and yelling by free people utilizing their 1st Amendment rights is just fine. It would do a world of good if ratwingers would allow the same thing, but they don’t, in their paranoid fascism. It just outlines their hypocrisy more boldly.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:10 pmIm vainly trying to remember my basic UCMJ codes, but I believe a service member is not allowed to profess disparaging remarks about individual political representatives.
There may be some gray area concerning current operations though I would expect that applies to the military end of things only; loose lips sink ships and all that.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:13 pmBut the Cooze-hacks are still hypocrites.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
that’s your point of view, which makes it wrong. Hypocrachy is the coin of the repig realm, and you robots fall right in line, every time.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:14 pmis that anything like “the violin lesson�?
Comment by RUCerious
Completely different…..I think. (remind me again what the ‘violin lesson’ is)
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:15 pmIt would do a world of good if ratwingers would allow the same thing, but they don’t, in their paranoid fascism. It just outlines their hypocrisy more boldly.
Would that liberal support of free speech include their habit of throwing food at conservative speakers?
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:16 pmSarge, the “violin lesson” was one of the first porn movies I ever saw.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:18 pmExtraordinarily raunchy.
but I believe a service member is not allowed to profess disparaging remarks about individual political representatives.
—- Sure he/she can….just not in uniform. Gives the impression that the SM is acting on behalf of the Service.
There may be some gray area concerning current operations though I would expect that applies to the military end of things only; loose lips sink ships and all that. —- Right. Talking about current ops is never a good idea. After the fact, talk away. But as long as the current ops are already a matter of public record, then where’s the harm?
Comment by CowTown
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:18 pmFriends at TP,
I haven’t had much time to comment this week…it’s been a hell of a week here in Minnesota.
I just wanted to take a moment and thank all you regulars for the ongoing discussions and political comments we share daily.
Some of the things I’ve experienced this week are through the eyes of a search / rescue person and ex-marine.
I don’t want to talk about that right now.
I just wanted to say that, as an American, if anyone of you, right or left, were trapped in a vehicle of part of a disaster I’d be there for you if I could.
That’s the wonderful part of being an American, Minnesotan or Human.
We all have the power to help each other in need.
I need to take a bread from political satire right now. My heart hurts.
Have a wonderful weekendk, everyone.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:19 pmBut the Cooze-hacks are still hypocrites.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
that’s your point of view, which makes it wrong. Hypocrachy is the coin of the repig realm, and you robots fall right in line, every time.
Comment by ronjazz — August 3, 2007 @ 4:14 pm
-
ok
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:19 pmI don’t think either system, King or ruling party, is a particularly enlightened one as both have resulted in widespread abuses, but the idea that Kos is more inclusive or less insular is just not borne out by reality. Different people, but similar clique-ish, protective behavior.
Comment by hanshiro — August 3, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
It sounds like you have more of an issue with society at large rather than this single cyber-society.
By your logic there does not exist an inclusive organization anywhere. The fact that you can read dissenting opinion within the dKos comments indicates to me that they are far more inclusive than say lucianne or redstate where left-leaning posters have their comments removed and their membership revoked within seconds. Just because dKos is not all-inclusive does not mean that is not more inclusive.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:20 pmSarge, the “violin lesson†was one of the first porn movies I ever saw.
Extraordinarily raunchy.
Comment by RUCerious
Was it extraordinarily raunchy because it was one of the first ones you saw…or did you just happen to choose a particularly raunchy one right out of the gate, so to speak. You know, the ‘porn gate’. lol
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:24 pm#70
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:26 pmAs clarification, Larry Flint’s magazines have models.
As I scanned the slide show earlier, one question came to mind. Are there any African American bloggers?
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:26 pmis that anything like “the violin lesson�?
Comment by RUCerious
to answer your previous question…Yes, I would imagine it is a lot like ‘The violin lesson’. We’ve tried to steer away from the level of raunch we’ve reached in the past, but…… Oh man, forgettit. I can’t keep this going. lmao
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:27 pmJeez… you Lefties are slow.
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
You are intellectually dishonest, which is so much worse.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:28 pmI need to take a bread from political satire right now. My heart hurts.
Have a wonderful weekendk, everyone. -Comment by Zimzone
My head hurts, too…that should be break, not bread.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm(weekendk stands!)
As I scanned the slide show earlier, one question came to mind. Are there any African American bloggers?
Comment by tablogloid — August 3, 2007 @ 4:26 pm
Steve Guillard was a great blogger, but he recently died.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:32 pmAs I scanned the slide show earlier, one question came to mind. Are there any African American bloggers?
Comment by tablogloid
Yes. In fact, if you dig back through TP a couple of months, there was a memorial to a particularly effective young blogger who happened to be African American.
I don’t know that you can take attendance at Yearly Kos as necessarily representative of “bloggers.”
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:33 pmUh oh, LIBTROLL ALERT! LIBTROLL ALERT!!!
Zooey’s here to express moral outrage!
BwAhAHahhHAhaHAhA!!!
… silly Lefties…
Don’t worry, Zo. I still love ya!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:34 pmBe well and God bless zimzone. My prayers are with the people of Minnesota this week.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:37 pmThank goodness tully mr. p is here to remind us all what ignorance is really all about.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:38 pmDon’t worry, Zo. I still love ya!!!
Comment by tully
Really? Where in that comment was the ‘love’?
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:38 pmthe love that comes from ignorance. like mr.p loves mr. p even though there are lies and deceit spewed from mr. p’s mouth.
ah ignorance.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:42 pmtully is incapable of moral outrage, having had his morals removed along with his balls upon joining the ratwing traitors trying to trash the Constitution. the fact that he isn’t posting from Iraq is all we need to know about him and the rest of the cowards that parrot KKKarl’s talking points.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:47 pmDon’t worry, Zo. I still love ya!!!
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 4:34 pm
No, that was just an observation of your moral relativity, and your willingness to put the brakes on any thinking process once you realize you might be wrong, or that you might have to stop pissing your pants.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:49 pmI hate that term “progressives” it’s so elitist. that and its a cop out from not standing up for liberalism
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:50 pmReally? Where in that comment was the ‘love’?
Comment by SGT Higgins — August 3, 2007 @ 4:38 pm
You and your hard questions. ;)
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:50 pmI hate that term “progressives†it’s so elitist. that and its a cop out from not standing up for liberalism
Comment by old hack — August 3, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
So just use the term “liberal.”
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:51 pm#99 was sarcasm, BTW.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:52 pmHow about “Thinking American”
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:53 pmI hate that term “progressives†it’s so elitist. that and its a cop out from not standing up for liberalism
Comment by old hack — August 3, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
So just use the term “liberal.â€
Comment by Zooey
Heh. When I was a young’un, we had no use for “liberals” because we considered them too Establishment. Over the years, the Right has demonized the term so thoroughly that it’s roughly the equivalent of “commie”.
I’m OK with being a liberal these days, as long as no one thinks that means I’m a vegetarian. Or a pacifist.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:54 pmSo just use the term “liberal.â€
Comment by Zooey — August 3, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
I like the term progressive, it implies that the opposition is regressive or at best sedentary. I would be in favor of something more extreme though…maybe like calling ourselves the “not evil” party.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:55 pmI like the term progressive, it implies that the opposition is regressive or at best sedentary. I would be in favor of something more extreme though…maybe like calling ourselves the “not evil†party.
Comment by erock
We’re the “good guys.” Simple.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:56 pmI’m OK with being a liberal these days, as long as no one thinks that means I’m a vegetarian. Or a pacifist.
Comment by gummitch — August 3, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
Or a vegan. Ugh.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:58 pmOr a vegan. Ugh.
Comment by Zooey
UHUH!!! Just can’t have a ‘meaty’ discussion with them kind!
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:00 pmI like the term progressive, it implies that the opposition is regressive or at best sedentary. I would be in favor of something more extreme though…maybe like calling ourselves the “not evil†party.
Comment by erock — August 3, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
I’ve got not problem with ‘progressive’ or ‘liberal.’ Some can’t get over the smear job by the right, and care what other people think about labels. Eh, whatever.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:00 pmUHUH!!! Just can’t have a ‘meaty’ discussion with them kind!
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
Are we heading back into plate tectonics….?
Heh.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:01 pmYou and your hard questions. ;)
Comment by Zooey
Always drivin’ it to the hoop, that’s me. lol
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:02 pmYeah, them vegans and their point ears and green skin, Eeeww.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:05 pmWhy I do not shy away from the term “liberal,” I feel the term is much more vague than Progressive. I do believe Progressivism represents a particular school of political thought.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:06 pmtully is incapable of moral outrage, having had his morals removed along with his balls upon joining the ratwing traitors trying to trash the Constitution. the fact that he isn’t posting from Iraq is all we need to know about him and the rest of the cowards that parrot KKKarl’s talking points.
Comment by ronjazz — August 3, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
-
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:08 pmoh
I like Vegans, they stay crunchy in milk!!!
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:11 pmAre we heading back into plate tectonics….?
Heh.
Comment by Zooey
Not unless you are very gneiss to me! (and of course, I mean that metamorphically.)
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:12 pmHopefully Bill O’Reilly is paying attention. We are serious people. It’s been “dead”serious now for 6 1/2 years, and we demand change. We aren’t crazy, hippies, and filthy lefty bloggers. What we are, BillO, is VOTERS. You will find us at the polls 100%! We want the best candidates, and we will get the best elected. What Bill O’Reilly hasn’t figured out yet, is that the Democratic Candidates already knew who we all are! O’Reilly says he doesn’t “respect” Chris Dodd. By the time O’Reilly sees us in action, he “will” respect us! All of us!
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:13 pmWhat we are, BillO, is VOTERS. You will find us at the polls 100%! We want the best candidates, and we will get the best elected. What Bill O’Reilly hasn’t figured out yet, is that the Democratic Candidates already knew who we all are! Comment by Aanya
SHHHH! Don’t tell them anything! It will be our little secret…. til Nov ‘08.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:16 pmNot unless you are very gneiss to me! (and of course, I mean that metamorphically.)
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Don’t give me that schist.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:20 pmI’m a dirty hippie.
But I still get to vote…..
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:20 pmI like Vegans, they stay crunchy in milk!!!
Comment by Krazny — August 3, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
Just don’t try to hug one — bone bruises.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:21 pmPosts 88 and 89: Thanks for the feedback on African American bloggers.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:23 pmDon’t give me that schist.
Comment by Zooey
OK OK! I give up. You are winning as I am a quartz low and please granite me my last wish, OK?
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:24 pmThe right is just having a hard time understanding the movement. They always have. Anything that is run by “the unwashed masses” is scary to them.
This is just a different venue for the same grassroots, people-driven movements that have marked America’s history throughout her history. Women’s suffrage relied on grassroots organization. Civil rights in the 60s was grassroots.
Instead of having only house meetings, we meet online.
Instead of only taking petitions to the street corners, we hold them online.
Instead of sending out pamphlets with information, we post information online.
Grassroots movements are very successful at the local level. We’ve just taken it to the next level.
The Internet is just a tool to help accomplish the same grassroots activities we’ve always had. Why it’s so upsetting to the right is really puzzling. It’s just another form of political advocacy.
We can’t help it if the righties are scared of it or not very good at, or both.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:30 pmOK OK! I give up. You are winning as I am a quartz low and please granite me my last wish, OK?
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
Heh. Geology is one of my great favorites. :)
All I can do for your last wish is a picture of Angelina Jolie with a plunging syncline.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:31 pmWe can’t help it if the righties are scared of it or not very good at, or both.
Comment by Candyce — August 3, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
There’s no one standing in the room telling the RWAs what to do or how to think. It’s dangerous territory for them….
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:33 pmhanshiro
Yeah, they stick together when it comes to our FREEDOMS and our SECURITY that Repig clowns have decimated with an illegal war as their excuse for taking away our personal rights while at the SAME TIME they have made the BIGGEST GOVT. this country has ever seen, and run up the BIGGEST Debt to boot.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:35 pmRepigs can’t govern and they can’t protect us, PERIOD. They are incompetent boobs only out to grab all the money from tax payers that they can for themselves and their cronies. Half the party is in PRISON for pete’s sake.
Can’t wait until they ALL are.
All I can do for your last wish is a picture of Angelina Jolie with a plunging syncline.
Comment by Zooey
I can tell, and you are GOOOD at it.
And maybe a plunging anticline might be in order. ( I am an ex-awl guy). They make for the best hydrocarbon traps.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:37 pmAnd maybe a plunging anticline might be in order. ( I am an ex-awl guy). They make for the best hydrocarbon traps.
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 5:37 pm
Yeah, but crappy Angelina Jolie jokes…. :D
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:50 pmWhy do O’Hanlon and Pollack get all the attention?
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:52 pmOK OK! I give up. You are winning as I am a quartz low and please granite me my last wish, OK?
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
Awwww… youse guys have been trading puns and I missed it? Damn… I have been known to reduce people to tears w/ puns.
Puns are like a football game… sometimes you just have to drop back and throw a shale mary pass. After all, I’ve pretty much proven I’m bedrock crazy. It’s been my experience that the boulder person usually wins in these things.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:56 pmBefore you get comfortable that progressives understand ‘grassroots’ politics and republicans don’t get it (in terms of the blogoshpere); you should probably read this:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/7/7/184341/5955
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:02 pmPuns are like a football game… sometimes you just have to drop back and throw a shale mary pass. After all, I’ve pretty much proven I’m bedrock crazy. It’s been my experience that the boulder person usually wins in these things.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Thanks for keeping it clean TRoS. Zooey and upside00 were talking so much dirty geology I was blushing.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:07 pmThe right needs to be told what to think at every step in their life. Just like being told what the bible says. They can’t understand how you can have your own opinion. It’s pathetic.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:13 pmThanks for keeping it clean TRoS. Zooey and upside00 were talking so much dirty geology I was blushing.
Comment by shane — August 3, 2007 @ 6:07 pm
Yeah… I noticed that. I’m just sorry I missed it!
“I’d a stone crushed those guys, ‘n left them in the dust” he said in a gravelly voice.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA…
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:13 pmThe right needs to be told what to think at every step in their life. Just like being told what the bible says. They can’t understand how you can have your own opinion. It’s pathetic.
Comment by Yikes — August 3, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
___
Quit hatin’
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:17 pmComment by paul — August 3, 2007
I’m not talking about numbers of blogs. I’m talking about activist blog communities. I certainly don’t have the research to back this up, but I’m going to posit that progressive blogs had a lot to do with the 2006 election results, and getting progressive candidates elected. That’s the kind of grassroots I’m talking about.
But, isn’t it funny when you look at those pure numbers, when the right sneers out the word “blog” you are left with the impression that only progressives and liberals even have blogs?
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:19 pmQuit hatin’
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
You’re kidding right? Unless you’re making fun of yourself, YOU in particular have got no right to say that to anyone.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:21 pmCandyce,
a while back one of the brain dead trolls kept posting about how their were more conservative think tanks, then liberal think tanks, as proof, that conservatives ideals were winning. Pointing out that there are more conservative blogs then liberal blogs is the same sort of tactic, even though it doesn’t mean anything of the sort.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:24 pmQuit hatin’
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
You’re kidding right? Unless you’re making fun of yourself, YOU in particular have got no right to say that to anyone.
Comment by LosingFaith — August 3, 2007 @ 6:21 pm
Quit hatin’
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:29 pmPuns are like a football game… sometimes you just have to drop back and throw a shale mary pass. After all, I’ve pretty much proven I’m bedrock crazy. It’s been my experience that the boulder person usually wins in these things.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 3, 2007 @ 5:56 pm
Not a double entendre in the bunch….
*sigh*
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:31 pmThanks for keeping it clean TRoS. Zooey and upside00 were talking so much dirty geology I was blushing.
Comment by shane — August 3, 2007 @ 6:07 pm
We hadn’t even covered the thrusting and heaving of the earth’s crust. :(
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:32 pmQuit hatin’
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
Project much?
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:33 pmQuit hatin’
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
You should all pumice to be gneiss, (if you phyllite it.) You could end up marbling at how coal you feel.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:35 pmIt sounds like you have more of an issue with society at large rather than this single cyber-society.
Comment by erock
Then you have a ‘tin ear’ for “sounds like.” How Kos treats dissent is an entirely different issue from the solution to the problem. I merely pointed out that the issue of the soldier being shouted down or silenced by Kos members is not an isolated one, however much you prefer to frame my reply.
It has happened frequently on the site itself, with, as I now understand it, even the encouragement of Kos. That does not sound like anything approaching an egalitarian forum.
By your logic there does not exist an inclusive organization anywhere. The fact that you can read dissenting opinion within the dKos comments indicates to me that they are far more inclusive than say lucianne or redstate where left-leaning posters have their comments removed and their membership revoked within seconds.
In your apparent haste to reframe my reply by insinuating “my logic,” you overlook the idea that Kos is objecting to the government’s “good ‘ol boy” network by apparently implementing one of his own. One that also excludes rational input and rewards abuse with stature of “monitors” for the ‘regulars.’ Claiming Kos is inclusive because they allow a brief period for dissent to exist before the posters are abused and their comments disappeared for the larger audience is disingenuous.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:42 pmWell whadda ya know?!?!
It’s moronic Physical Geology 101 vocab day at TP!
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:48 pmIt’s moronic Physical Geology 101 vocab day at TP!
Comment by tully — August 3, 2007 @ 6:48 pm
Always best to take one’s own advice.
BTW, it’s called fun. Try it sometime…..somewhere else.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:50 pmSorry, Mistress Z~
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:52 pmTully’s busy brewin up trouble and bad latte’s.
Sorry, Mistress Z~
Tully’s busy brewin up trouble and bad latte’s.
Comment by RUCerious — August 3, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
Mr Pee is such a frickin’ cranky old man.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:56 pmSorry, Mistress Z~
Tully’s busy brewin up trouble and bad latte’s.
Comment by RUCerious — August 3, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
My sedimentaries exactly. I chert wish Tully could get the schist of it.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:04 pmZoo,
Me thinks we may have mined this quarry to depletion.
But, yes, it was fun. We do need some of that once in a while.
Thanks all, for indulging a bit of the smileys today!
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:44 pmComment by hanshiro — August 3, 2007 @ 6:42 pm
Your erroneous assumptions in that post include (but are not limited to) the following:
-The soldier was shouted down due to his dissenting opinion
-I claimed that Kos was absolutely inclusive rather than simply more inclusive
-Kos recognizes and objects to a “good ole boy” network
-Kos rewards the banning of members and deletion of comments by monitors
-The solution to providing civil discourse is independent of the level of inclusivity that an organization provides
As has been pointed out, the soldier was prevented from speaking out to prevent him from violating the rules set out by the Armed Forces.
Kos’ function is that of a business, providing a venue for civil discourse while collecting revenues from advertising to those who come to discuss current events. I applaud their ability to maintain said discussions while allowing a much higher level of inclusivity than its right wing analogs. It would be foolish to assume that the site can be absolutely inclusive AND conduct its business successfully. Unfortunately, they have chosen to do this by bestowing the banning/deletion powers to its monitors who occassionally abuse these powers. Is there a better way? As of yet, neither of us has suggested a more practical method though I have no doubt that one exists.
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:13 pmMy sedimentaries exactly. I chert wish Tully could get the schist of it.
Comment by paul — August 3, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
Rock hound.
*nose in air*
:-D
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:02 pmThanks all, for indulging a bit of the smileys today!
Comment by upside00 — August 3, 2007 @ 7:44 pm
It was fun! Thanks, upside00. :)
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:03 pm“Progressive bloggers can make a difference, if they demand that Democrats in DC do their jobs or they will vote them out of office.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 3, 2007 @ 3:07 pm”
How many folks are at YearlyKos? 1200? 1400? That’s not enough to vote anyone in or out of office. The lunatic fringe of the left has found a voice in the internet, and is getting a lot of press, but the numbers are pretty much the same as they have been all along-miniscule.
Only difference is that now all the talk is open to the general public, rather than limited to the minimal readership of a few kook left old-time printed newsletters.
Already the Democrats have figured out that they can pretty much ignore the “netroots” except for around election time, when they will throw a few bones for a few votes, just as they have all along.
I figure one, maybe two, more election cycles and it will be all over. The Democrats won’t even acknowledge the far-left websites anymore.
August 4th, 2007 at 2:12 amComment by O. Bigfoot — August 4, 2007 @ 2:12 am
The 2004 Republic National Convention had 2,509 delegates and 2,344 alternate delegates totalling 4853 total in attendence. So simply using your attendence metric for legitimacy, Kos has already achieved 25% of the legitimicay of the Republican party. Also, based on the college football games I have attended in the past year, Virginia Tech is 6 to 7 times more legitimate than the Republican party.
August 4th, 2007 at 10:05 am“The 2004 Republic National Convention had 2,509 delegates and 2,344 alternate delegates totalling 4853 total in attendence. So simply using your attendence metric for legitimacy, Kos has already achieved 25% of the legitimicay of the Republican party. Also, based on the college football games I have attended in the past year, Virginia Tech is 6 to 7 times more legitimate than the Republican party.
Comment by erock — August 4, 2007 @ 10:05 am”
And more people show up at car shows, bike rallies, GPAA Gold and Treasure Shows, etc. etc. I think more than 100,000 showed up to watch the city of Tulsa, Oklahoma dig up a 1958 Plymouth that had been buried for 50 years(and it ended up looking like it had been sitting in water and mud for 40 years).
My point didn’t have anything to do with “legitimacy”. YearlyKos all you want, get togethers of like minds are generally pretty fun. My point is that the same type of far left thinkers have been with us for generations, and the percentage of the general population who think like that is still pretty small.
The United States is still a pretty conservative (I didn’t say Republican, I said conservative) country. We want low taxes, little, if any, government intrusion, a stable economy, a good job, a nice house, 32 inch plasma screen TV, etc. etc. When most folks, even those classified by some arbitrary scale as “poor”, can have these things, it is difficult to make the case that there should be radical change. And indeed, why should there be? If the system works, leave it alone.
Most people in this country are not politically active. Most people do not vote. We allow our “leaders” to pretty much get away with anything, including “drifts” to the left through creeping tax increases, creeping increases in social programs, creeping regulations and relaxed social standards.
But when pushed, the nation still can rise up and be heard. Historically, when that happens, the shift is to the right, not to the left. Call it a “correction” if you will.
Even Bill Clinton was aware of this - It was a Democrat who pushed, and passed, welfare reform - a conservative principle.
August 4th, 2007 at 11:00 amComment by O. Bigfoot — August 4, 2007 @ 11:00 am
But when pushed, the nation still can rise up and be heard. Historically, when that happens, the shift is to the right, not to the left. Call it a “correction†if you will.
Three counter-examples:
The New Deal in response to the Great Depression brought on by what was essentially an American aristocracy
Labor Laws brought on by the horrible abuses to workers during the Industrial Revolution
The Food and Drug Act of 1906 (Wiley act) in response to works by authors such as Upton Sinclair
These are 3 instances where a single stimuli resulted in liberal legislation. In fact, it is arguable that no single stimulus has ever brought about conservative legislation. Let’s take the Patriot Act for example. This Act was the result of the 9/11 attacks and resulted in what is certainly not conservative legislation (as the conservative values you laid out). The Patriot act resulted in larger government coupled with larger government spending and a great deal more intrusion into our daily lives. Even the welfare reform you refer to does not adhere to strictly conservative principles as it requires an expanded beurocracy to monitor welfare or “workfare” recipients. Again, something contradictory to the conservative principles you define.
This is all beside the point though. Every political movement started out as a fringe component of some other belief system. Even the Republican party started out as a collection of other political parties’ radical members that opposed the expansion of slavery. At that time, it was the abolitionists who were considered a fringe movement. As then with the Republicans, today the