A SiCKO moment in the debate.
A SiCKO moment in the debate.
Democratic presidential candidates fielded questions from audience members with powerful stories during Tuesday’s AFL-CIO forum. The questioners included the wife of a Sago mine victim and an Iraq war veteran. But the most compelling moment of the debate may have come when a gentleman from Indiana rose with tears in his eyes to ask this question:
QUESTION: After 34 years with LTV Steel I was forced to retire because of a disability. Two years later, LTV filed bankruptcy. I lost a third of my pension and my family lost their health care.
Every day of my life I sit at the kitchen table across from the woman who devoted 36 years of her life to my family and I can’t afford to pay for her health care. What’s wrong with America and what will you do to change it?
Watch it:
Chris Matthews remarked, “I wonder if that wasn’t a moment that’s gonna change American political history.”
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Only if we can elect some people in the Congress as well as the WH with some leadership, some ethics... AND some BALLS!
August 8th, 2007 at 12:39 amWhat's wrong with America?
Bush, Cheney, Rove, Gonzales, the PNAC, the AEI, et al.
You can include the DLC, and any other spineless dems that keep capitulating to Mr. "25-percent."
Last, but not least, the loss of the fourth estate; the free press.
Welcome to fascist America at least until Jan. 20, 2009.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:43 amThis comment wont change anything.
This is the last time this comment is played on TV, cable or not.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:48 amNothing will change. Anybody who questions the inherent goodness and deep christian beliefs of HMO's is a pinko commie libtard.
Anybody who questions the inherent goodness and deep christian beliefs of HMO’s is a pinko commie libtard.
Comment by timotheus — August 8, 2007 @ 12:48 am
This is an irrational comment. There are no facts here, hence nothing to debate or rebutt. You need to IGNORE commentsl ike this. The troll who posted it will eventually go away if no one argues w/ it.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:51 amI can just imagine what it took for that man to stand up and say that.
I am ashamed of the healthcare system in this country.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:52 amI can just imagine what it took for that man to stand up and say that.
I am ashamed of the healthcare system in this country.
Comment by Zooey
Can you even imagine him getting in to a Repug debate... let alone being able to speak?
August 8th, 2007 at 12:56 amIt is so sad that someone's health, actually living or dying, would be at the mercy of some politician/corporation. The despair in this man's voice is heartbreaking. I am sad for our country. Hell, I am pissed this is what I have to look forward to. Might as well get ready to die. Disgusting.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:58 amAbsolutely! The Repukes wouldn't even consider this a "problem," as long as they are making money. No way this guy would be able to speak. They'd have some ING executive talking about how much money they are making for the shareholders. F*ck everyone else!
August 8th, 2007 at 1:03 amCan you even imagine him getting in to a Repug debate… let alone being able to speak?
Comment by upside00 — August 8, 2007 @ 12:56 am
No way, he'd never get in. And if Bush were present, he'd look at the crutches and tell him a story about the time he fell of his bike and got a little boo boo.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:06 amThe lack of universal health care is the shame of this nation. The bottom line is that the rich can afford to live while the poor people die.
I think the whole system of government needs to be changed. It was good for all these years mostly, but greed has killed it.
When I was a child, it cost 3 dollars to go to a doctor. There were no HMOs etc.
Well, I better stop before I sound like one of those old folks reminiscing. I sure hope that man in the video and thousands of others like him get the help they need.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:06 amF*ck everyone else!
Comment by copperdog — August 8, 2007 @ 1:03 am
We had a troll on here last night talking about how people deserve what they get if they are poor, or happen to have worked for the wrong company. It's the "sucks to be you" attitude of so many Americans. It's unbelievable.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:08 amYou can include the DLC, and any other spineless dems that keep capitulating to Mr. “25-percent.â€
------------
You are looking at old polls, stupid. Bush is in the mid to high 30's now, more than double the approval rating of the Democratic congress. Bush's approval on Iraq has also spiked up recently.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:09 amAren't you people sick of these Dems pandering to a union? It's disgusting.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:10 amThis is why the 2008 election is not going to be about haircuts or cleavage.
Those people who aren't afraid of getting sick are afraid of losing their coverage. And it's only getting worse.
For once, I think Matthews is right.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:13 amI don't doubt it. These freaks are heartless. "It's your fault if you are poor." Complete POS, all of them. When the shoe is on the other foot I bet they change their tune!
August 8th, 2007 at 1:13 amAren’t you people sick of these Dems pandering to a union? It’s disgusting.
Comment by Len — August 8, 2007 @ 1:10 am
See... here's a perfect example. No facts. No real position to debate. just irrational vitriol. Having been identified as such, just ignore this comment and poster. This indiviual is not interested in debate. they are just trying to disrupt.
Do not charge the red flag, folks. You will not accomplsih anything.
DO NOT FEED THIS TROLL! DO NOT FEED THIS TROLL!
August 8th, 2007 at 1:14 amWhatever troll. Why are you against the working man?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:17 amWhen the shoe is on the other foot I bet they change their tune!
Comment by copperdog — August 8, 2007 @ 1:13 am
They turn into the biggest f*cking whiny babies on the planet, and after they get what they need, they go back to being SOBs.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:19 amWoo hoo, Len! The "mid-to-high 30s?" You must be so proud! How does it feel to be part of the marginal segment of society who thinks this guy is something great? Aren't you embarrassed? I would be, even if he was making me a lot of money. I mean, the guy is practically a Special Olympian.
Pathetic.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:25 am"Only if we can elect some people in the Congress as well as the WH with some leadership, some ethics… AND some BALLS!
Comment by upside00 — August 8, 2007"
To do what?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:28 am"Anybody who questions the inherent goodness and deep christian beliefs of HMO’s is a pinko commie libtard.
Comment by timotheus — August 8, 2007"
And you can back that up with?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:29 am"I am ashamed of the healthcare system in this country.
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007"
Why? Explain?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:30 amTo paraphrase the cultists' Dear (mis)Leader:
After decades of hard work, the company you used to work for filed for bankruptcy, so you lost your pension, health coverage, and now have no security blanket for you or your loved ones?
It's fantastic you're doing that! That's uniquely American!
(C'mon trolls, confess. You take deep pleasure in witnessing the misery of others. Give me the good ole' "personal responsibility" dictum)
August 8th, 2007 at 1:31 amComment by copperdog — August 8, 2007 @ 1:25 am
Big mistake, Copperdog. You tried arguing against an irrational statement.
YOU WILL NEVER WIN ARGUING AGAINST AN IRRATIONAL POSITION.
Show some discipline, dude. When you address a troll directly, you're letting that troll into the conversation. You have to label irrational comments as irrational and stay away after that.
Calling names accomplishes NOTHING.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:33 amIt’s fantastic you’re doing that! That’s uniquely American!
Comment by Gregor Samsa — August 8, 2007 @ 1:31 am
Sadly, it is uniquely American. I liked what Edwards said about holding the CEO's pensions and health insurance to the same standard as the workers.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:34 am"The lack of universal health care is the shame of this nation. The bottom line is that the rich can afford to live while the poor people die.
Comment by Administrator1 — August 8, 2007"
Oh please? How old are you? 13? People need to provide for their own health care. I DON"T WANT TO CARE FOR YOUR KIDS!!!!! You need to do it or don't have them! Wake up!
August 8th, 2007 at 1:34 amThis is only a slight shadow of things to come. we're heading for the next Great Depression. When it happens (look for articles on China calling in their loans), the Republicans are finished. Finito. It's amazing what happens to people when they hit hard times - they become compassionate, and thet get really realist, really fast. Thank God Clinton left a surplus - the financial disaster will be laid at Bush's door (in Paraguay).
Good, dollar resistant commodities: Swiss Francs, New Zeland Dollars, singapore dollars, and of course gold (in the form of legal tender: US Eagles, Canadian Maple Leafs, Krugerrands, etc.).
Good luck, and good night.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:36 am"After decades of hard work, the company you used to work for filed for bankruptcy, so you lost your pension, health coverage, and now have no security blanket for you or your loved ones?
It’s fantastic you’re doing that! That’s uniquely American!
(C’mon trolls, confess. You take deep pleasure in witnessing the misery of others. Give me the good ole’ “personal responsibility†dictum)
Comment by Gregor Samsa — August 8, 2007"
Yes some people have, so what? What would you do? Make the American people make up for it?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:39 am"Sadly, it is uniquely American. I liked what Edwards said about holding the CEO’s pensions and health insurance to the same standard as the workers.
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007"
Explain it to us zooey?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:41 amzooey? You and me. Let's get it on?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:41 amGoodnight, Marcus. You did well slaying trolls today. :)
August 8th, 2007 at 1:42 amAlright, point taken. I'm able to learn, unlike some trolls I suppose.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:42 am"Goodnight, Marcus. You did well slaying trolls today. :)
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007"
Once again, zooey retreats to her bed and blanket when confronted with something she can't respond to. What a surprise!
August 8th, 2007 at 1:44 am"I liked what Edwards said about holding the CEO’s pensions and health insurance to the same standard as the workers.
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007"
aND JUST WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:47 amDid y'all see Mr. $1250 Haircut acting all slick up there?
Edwards is such a slime ball!
August 8th, 2007 at 1:47 amAlright, point taken. I’m able to learn, unlike some trolls I suppose.
Comment by copperdog — August 8, 2007 @ 1:42 am
As you can see, it's been a bit of a problem around here. :)
August 8th, 2007 at 1:48 am"I’m able to learn, unlike some trolls I suppose.
Comment by copperdog — August 8, 2007"
what did you learn?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:48 ammichael, thanks for removing any doubt -if there was any left- that you are one uncaring, miserly bastard. And I don't use that word lightly.
May you rot in hell, if there is one.
What a scrooge.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:50 amAren’t you people sick of these Dems pandering to a union? It’s disgusting.
Comment by Len — August 8, 2007 @ 1:10 am
August 8th, 2007 at 1:50 am------------------
Pander is all Dems do! They take their cues from the irrational masses! They might as well change their name to the Demagogue Party!
"“I liked what Edwards said about holding the CEO’s pensions and health insurance to the same standard as the workers.
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007"
What does that mean zopey?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:51 amThis healthcare problem along with all other mechanisms of privatization of every public sector of an industrialized country is not new. It has been happening since 82, if Im not mistaken after a rise of the ideology of the Chicago School of Economic/Politics: technocrats.
US was the last country to feel its full impact because it is still the country with the most powerful working class in the world. It takes a lot of work to destroy this working class, and they are succeeding. They have succeeded in Latin America a long time ago, and some other countries were fallen apart way before this and some other countries do still protect working class rights with an iron hand (France, Germany, etc.)
What is wrong with America? Nothing really. Capitalism in its most vile expression is running loose.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:51 amWhat a scrooge.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — August 8, 2007 @ 1:50 am
Why so mean to scrooge, Gregor? :D
August 8th, 2007 at 1:52 amComment by copperdog — August 8, 2007 @ 1:42 am
That guy IS a troll! You'd be a fool to listen to him!
August 8th, 2007 at 1:52 am"michael, thanks for removing any doubt -if there was any left- that you are one uncaring, miserly bastard. And I don’t use that word lightly.
May you rot in hell, if there is one.
What a scrooge.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — August 8, 2007"
It's nice that you can take all that time to call me those horrible names without backing it up with some examples, Want to try?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:54 amUS was the last country to feel its full impact because it is still the country with the most powerful working class in the world. It takes a lot of work to destroy this working class, and they are succeeding.
Comment by Juan C — August 8, 2007 @ 1:51 am
And by destroying the working class, we collapse the house of cards.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:54 amComment by Juan C — August 8, 2007 @ 1:51 am
It seems we need a group of strong leaders to
1) stop the out of control individualism that is destroying the Homeland from within, while at the same time,
2) acquire and maintain US power and influence across the globe.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:56 amFree market, baby! You don't like what you got, go somewhere else. He lost his pension. So what! Get a new job.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:58 amCan't find a job that will insure you? Move to a new state! Can't find a job there that has insurance that will insure you but doesn't have the policy you need? Keep looking!!! In the meantime, start training for a new job! Get off your crutches and fight!! Can't your wife work? Why do you have to be such a burden to the rest of us? Work! Work! Work!!!!!
Teh market will bear it out. Word.
"And by destroying the working class, we collapse the house of cards.
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007"
Did you learn about the house of cards in your grammar school class today? Let's see if you can explain to the rest of your leftist buddies what you are referring to?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:58 amAnd by destroying the working class, we collapse the house of cards.
Comment by Zooey
Exactly but it is also a risk for the ruling class. The ruling class should know better than f*cking with the middle class. The middle class of a country does it all. It keeps the money flowing inside a country. Rich send money to other countries, they rarely invest in their own products or services. Poor people hardly contribute to important economic activities, so the middle class is the heart of every modern society.
General strike...and lets see how these f*ckers freak out.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:58 amDid y’all see Mr. $1250 Haircut acting all slick up there?
Edwards is such a slime ball!
Comment by Nicholas of Cusa — August 8, 2007 @ 1:47 am
See??? This is most likely Mr P in yet another of his aliases. This is a meaningless comment. Just name-calling. No facts to rebutt. No position to debate. JUST SILLY!!!!
Don't call names. Don't push back. See this for what it is - an immature attempt to elicit an emotional response and initiate a full-blown poo fight. IGNORE THIS TROLL!!! DO NOT TAKE THE BAIT!!!
August 8th, 2007 at 2:12 amwhat did you learn?
Comment by michael — August 8, 2007 @ 1:48 am
This is Michael's endless MO - bait you w/ questions. Ignore him. He has nothing to say. He only comes here to F- w/ people.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:14 amThat guy IS a troll! You’d be a fool to listen to him!
Comment by Nicholas of Cusa — August 8, 2007 @ 1:52 am
See, copperdog? It really drives the trolls crazy.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:16 amHeh. The michael troll gets all frustrated when he's ignored. :D
August 8th, 2007 at 2:16 amJeez, Stupidity.
Stop trashing the thread with your nonsense.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:16 amHeh. The michael troll gets all frustrated when he’s ignored. :D
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007 @ 2:16 am
-------
Nah.
He just wanted to poke holes in all the libtard arguments before he left.
The fact that none of you could defend yourselfs proves that you don't have a strong understanding of the issues.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:18 amStop trashing the thread with your nonsense.
Comment by Nicholas of Cusa — August 8, 2007 @ 2:16 am
See how it upsets them, folks?
August 8th, 2007 at 2:18 amSee how it upsets them, folks?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 8, 2007 @ 2:18 am
We sure do!
August 8th, 2007 at 2:19 amSee how it upsets them, folks?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 8, 2007 @ 2:18 am
It's the newest, hottest thing in town, my friend. :D
August 8th, 2007 at 2:20 amSounds like he should have diversified his investments and purchased disability insurance. This sort of thing can be prevented with proper planning.
But our public schools don't teach such things.
Our emphasis should be on "a cure" instead of treating the symptoms. The cure is to educate people and let them make their choices. Not for some government run system. Look at how poor the health systems are in Canada and England. They suck compared to what we have in the US.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:21 amGoodnight, TRoS. :)
August 8th, 2007 at 2:21 amIt’s the newest, hottest thing in town, my friend. :D
Comment by Zooey — August 8, 2007 @ 2:20 am
That's 'cause it works!!! Make sure ya spread the info around Zooey. It's a sure-fire way to stop the F-ing trolls from running amok.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:22 amGotta go, folks. No actual debate on real positions here. Just another poo flinging contest forming up.
Let the feces fly!!! Night all!
August 8th, 2007 at 2:23 amOur emphasis should be on “a cure†instead of treating the symptoms.
Exactly. With all these fools squandering their money without planning ahead, it is no wonder that so many are SOL!!!
August 8th, 2007 at 2:27 am“Only if we can elect some people in the Congress as well as the WH with some leadership, some ethics… AND some BALLS!
Comment by upside00 — August 8, 2007″
To do what?
Comment by michael — August 8, 2007 @ 1:28 am
Mayb bring some sanity, honesty, integrity... return to WE THE PEOPLE rather than ME THE GREEDY. What kind of a person can sit by and watch this horror story unfold - folks dying because of lack of health care, greedy corporations stealing pensions, our infrastructure crumbling, fraudulent wars while corporations reap the wealth?
August 8th, 2007 at 2:38 amWatched SICKO and then F/11 again on http://www.tv-links.co.uk/
Revisiting these movies you realize just how sick and screwed up the times are.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:52 amand purchased disability insurance.
He retired on disability...he's uninsurable.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:03 amMarkos does not encourage getting into the street to protest and in his book says it isn't effective. Turns out markos is CIA. Check the evidence it is formidable. There are many good people working without pay to try to end these atrocities and one of the reasons why we are not successful is due to cia left gatekeepers.
EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE UNCOVERED:
http://progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=202&topic_id=3154
KOS and the CIA
by: Stu Piddy
Fri May 25, 2007 T
Markos Moulitsas: Man of Mystery
Markos Moulitsas spent 6 months in 2001 interviewing with the CIA. He was accepted by the CIA, went through the entire interview process (talking to dozens of people including “psychologists and people in the leadership†) and given his first assignment to work in clandestine services. His assignment, he says was to act as a “spy†in Washington D.C. for the CIA. He was told by the CIA that this particular assignment in Washington D.C. would last for at least 6 years before he would be given the overseas assignment he preferred.
Moulitsas spoke to the CIA about his "blogâ€
http://truth-about-kos.blogspot.com/2007/07/markos-moulitsas-family-and-pollution.html
http://francislholland.blogspot.com/2007/07/kos-family-businesses-us-government.html
August 8th, 2007 at 3:04 amhttp://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=168
Comment by Carol Lam — August 8, 2007 @ 3:04 am
WoW!!! This sure seems like an heavy handed attempt at smearing someone. Dunno fer sure, but looks a little hincty ta me. No doubt I'll get smacked for daring to say this.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:19 amWe truly have a health care crisis in our country. Moore's movie has shined a spot light on this crisis. Fortunately our democratic candidates are up to this task. They are willing to deal with this very critical issue. Every American deserves to have access to universal health care. The republicans have failed to lead us on this issue.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:22 amProbus
The healthcare crisis is just a symptom of the real problem in America. Read the trolls to see what I mean.
August 8th, 2007 at 6:14 am*******
I've read through your comments, michael. I've noticed that each one is simply a put-down of another poster. Are your thought processes so vapid that you can't come up with any arguments to support your views?
You do provide a service, however. By making the comments that you do, you drive people away from your side. That's a good thing.
Now, as regarding your comment about not wanting to "care for my kids" that won't be necessary. I have none. People like you cannot perceive that anyone could care about someone just because they are human. Altruism is sacrificing something for the greater good. I'm certainly willing to pay higher taxes, though I am far from rich, so that some child who is in need of care gets it.
You are to be pitied, michael. Going through life with your attitude must be terrible.
August 8th, 2007 at 6:26 amZooey, I liked Edwards' comment about requiring CEO's to have the same health care as their employees, too. If the company can afford to give CEO's outrageous bonuses and perks and platinum healthcare, they can afford to give their employees decent healthcare, too.
August 8th, 2007 at 7:13 amLet the Truth be Known.
We the People.
August 8th, 2007 at 7:29 amAmerica - A Great and Good Nation
Dustin Hoffman is turning 70 today
August 8th, 2007 at 7:49 amBartholomew Sullivan on impeaching Gonzo
Rivals swipe at Clinton
China ready to bring economic collapse to USA.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml
August 8th, 2007 at 7:55 amWhy are my comments not showing up? (This isn't the first time.) The trolls seem to have no problem getting through.
August 8th, 2007 at 7:56 amShlomo
Length seems to impact it a bit. Seems they are trying to avoid long posts or something.
Fun Times coming
More or less what I have been saying since about 2002.
August 8th, 2007 at 7:59 amThe gentleman from Indiana has a very compelling story. But, when we consider his circumstance, please remember that the remedy is not free. Although he is a good man, he made the decision to work for LTV, he made the decision to rely solely on LTV to provide for his retirement and his healthcare needs (does he really not have other options, medicaid, other gov't assist?). He got 'screwed' by what happened at LTV, but what we are suggesting here is that the government take the money that you earn, and that I earn; dilute it with government beauracracy, to help rectify the man's decision to rely solely on LTV for his wellbeing. It would make me feel great to to be able to solve all his problems, but the solutions are not free and to what extent are we responsible for his decisions? Should I stop planning for my own future, knowing that you all will take responsibility for me if I fall on hard times?
August 8th, 2007 at 8:00 ampaul
What we are talking about is a hard working American, who through no fault of his own lost his job, his pension and his health care to a company which probably dipped into his pension fund in order to try and avoid its inevitable bankruptcy.
And you are sat their in your self-righteous stupor saying its all his fault for trusting a well established company that he worked for, for 36 years.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:06 amI am ashamed of the healthcare system in this country.
Comment by Zooey
It's weird -- we have the best medical capabilities in the world yet we struggle to provide even basic care to some people. I don't think universal care is necessarily the answer but I'm not sure I have an alternative. If we did implement universal health care, I think we need to inject a more free market into it so people are a little more judicious about how they use the system.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:17 amWe play a lot with statistics -- we spin them to enhance our arguments, to sway others to our side, or to poke holes in the arguments of others.
We forget that statistics represent real people with real problems. And as long as we just look at them as numbers in a table or chart, it's all too easy to insulate ourselves. We can look with smug self-righteousness at people who, for one reason or another, fell through the many cracks in our various systems and fault them for their "irresponsibility".
Here's a man who worked hard all his life and trusted the system we have in this country of employers providing for their workers. Many, many people are in that same position, and all it will take is an event beyond their control to put them where this man is.
For Whom the Bell Tolls
by John Donne
No man is an island,
August 8th, 2007 at 8:22 amEntire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
Cynicon Implant
How about this as a start:
Free emergency hospital care, free hospital care on doctors referral.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:27 am"Altruism is sacrificing something for the greater good."
Comment by Administrator1 — August 8, 2007 @ 6:26 am
Maybe the "greater good" that we must sacrifice for is liberty. Freedom from government interference.
Non of you would sacrifice your right to free speech to save the victims of the bridge disaster from from the protesters who will say heartless things.
We would not sacrifice our freedom of movement to combat global warming.
Should gays sacrifice their sexual expression rights to combat AIDS?
We would not sacrifice habeas corpus to save us from crime or terrorism.
Why should we sacrifice our property rights for health care?
However did our nation survive for so long without UHC?
There has got to be a better way than UHC.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:34 amCynicon Implant
How about this as a start:
Free emergency hospital care, free hospital care on doctors referral.
Comment by Bruce Gorton
Sounds appealing, but nothing is free. What's the incentive for people to not rush to the emergency room for a hangnail? What makes the MD be judicious about hospital care?
August 8th, 2007 at 8:38 amCynicon Implant
The MD doesn't gain anything with a false referral (No kickback. The original consultation is charged seperately.)
Patients going to a ER with a non-Emergency condition, as judged by doctor who is present at the time, can be fined the cost of their treatment.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:43 amThe gentleman from Indiana has a very compelling story. But, when we consider his circumstance, please remember that the remedy is not free.
Comment by paul — August 8, 2007 @ 8:00 am
The remedy isn't free, but the remedy costs a great deal less than what we are paying now. People who are fortunate enough to have their own health insurance pay hundreds of dollars a month to insure themselves and even more than that to insure their families. If their employer pays for their insurance, that employer pays thousands of dollars per employee per year, which they make up by hiking up the price of their goods and services, which we all pay for.
People who don't have insurance because they are unemployed, or have an employer who can't afford to insure their employees, or can't afford to pay for it out of their own pockets -- well, they go without. Until they really, really need it -- then they go to an emergency room, which we pay for. Or they suffer a medical catastrophe causing them to file bankruptcy, and we pay for their unpaid medical bills.
We are currently paying a LOT of money for health care in this country, and people still aren't getting the health care they need. Instead, a lot of that money is going into the pockets of Big Pharma and for-profit providers.
Please explain why you are happy with this expensive, inefficient system, but you condemn a single-payer system with no profit-taking middle men.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:47 amI didnt mention the big one "privacy rights"
Property rights and privacy rights go hand in hand. What I do with my body should not be infringed upon by the gov. that includes making money.
How is it that you dont think the gov has the right to make you carry a baby to term but it has the right to make you pay with you labor produced by your body for others health care?
August 8th, 2007 at 8:49 amPeople (using the term loosely when it comes to rightards) conveniently forget that a portion of this man's weekly paycheck went into his pension and healthcare funds, and his company LTV merely did the republican thing: took the money and ran. Stole from him and his family. lied to him. Cheated him out of his retirement. Broke every promise and every contract. but the idiots that hate American workers come here and claim it's HIS fault. that's what's wrong with Republicans: no morals.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:52 amTroll
That's got to be the dumbest, most idiotic thing I have ever read.
Please rephrase, because what you sound to be trying to argue is that your labour somehow relates to privacy.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:54 amHow is it that you dont think the gov has the right to make you carry a baby to term but it has the right to make you pay with you labor produced by your body for others health care?
Comment by Troll — August 8, 2007 @ 8:49 am
For the same reason we have the right to make you pay with the labor produced by your body for the defense of this country, for educating our people, for police and fire protection, for highways to drive on, and for many other things that make the overall quality of life in this country one of the best in the world.
We aren't taxing you so that lazy people may live in the lap of luxury (oh wait -- we are -- I forgot about corporate welfare). It benefits ALL of society when our people are healthy, educated, and safe. No luxuries -- just making sure basic needs are met.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:56 amHow is it that you dont think the gov has the right to make you carry a baby to term but it has the right to make you pay with you labor produced by your body for others health care?
Comment by Troll — August 8, 2007 @ 8:49 am
How is it that you so readily come up with irrelevant and foolish comparisons? Are you without a soul, or just completely immoral? How is it that you can support the government sending citizens to a false war, that you are paying for, so that Dick Cheney's friends can get ever richer? A strong country needs a healthy citizenry, so healthcare for all is another brick holding up the strength of America. We didn't get to be this strong by being so individually greedy that we we weakened the whole nation, but that's what you are arguing for. It is short-sighted and immoral. America will fall because of unbridled capitalism and short-sighted greed.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:57 amHow about this as a start:
Free emergency hospital care, free hospital care on doctors referral.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 8:27 am
It's a start, but we can keep a lot of people out of hospitals by giving them access to regular checkups and wellness programs. It costs a great deal less to keep people healthy from the beginning than to try to patch them up in hospitals after a lifetime of medical neglect.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:59 amComment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 8:54 am
Indeed I am arguing that. Explain how that is so dumb. It's my body through which I earn my living.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:59 amIndeed I am arguing that. Explain how that is so dumb. It’s my body through which I earn my living.
Comment by Troll — August 8, 2007 @ 8:59 am
it's been well-explained, several times. You are not worth the trouble. Like all righties, y8ou refuse to listen to anything that has a moral purpose. making money is your only goal. Your's is an empty life.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:02 amBruce.
"through no fault of his own lost his job."
This is the difference between conservatives and progressives. It is a very legitimate difference.
As a conservative, I believe the man had some responsibility to make contingency plans in case his employer failed. (don't put all your eggs in one basket).
I respect the compassion of progressives because I believe they want to ensure a safety net for all of lives contingencies. But it has a high cost. Not just money.
As a conservative, I am concerned that the expectation for that safety net has the unintended consequences of disincentivising the economy and diluting the individuals self-reliance. These aren't just talking points, I really believe them.
As a conservative, when I look at a situation like Katrina, I don't see a failure of government to act, I see the unintended consequence of an over reliance on government to solve your problems. Why do we lament our academic standings in the world, although everyone here has access to public education? I believe that government is not answer to the problems in our lives. We are. Individually. Government is a drug to seduces us to dependance.
I'll probably get ripped for this, but when you take a lion out of the jungle and put him in a zoo, have you really done him a favor? When you take away as many challenges as you can; when you meet as many needs as you can; when you create dependance; are you really doing what is in the best interest of the lion?
Obviously, we don't live in the jungle and the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. But just as there is consequence for not meeting the needs of the people, there is consequence for doing too much for them.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:03 amHow is it that you dont think the gov has the right to make you carry a baby to term but it has the right to make you pay with you labor produced by your body for others health care?
Comment by Troll
So when you make rich the people who owns healthcare private companies they are NOT making you pay with your labor... riiiight.
Better to enrich those few guys than pay for all your fellow lazy bastard americans, right?
August 8th, 2007 at 9:04 amKucinich is now the Frontrunner, and there's not even a close second.
The next time a commentator refers to Hillary, Barack and John as the "Frontrunners" please ask them to explain.
Are they the Frontrunners because they've raised the most corporate money? Or because they currently have the highest ratings? Or is it because more people agree with them on this issues? OOPS!
None of them are the Frontrunners on this issues, Dennis Kucinich is!...And its not even close!
An Independent Survey on 25 major issues taken by more than 67,000 people has found that Dennis Kucinich is the First Choice of a phenomenal 53% of voters. No other candidate, Democrat or Republican even registers double digits! Hillary and Barack clock in at a measly 3%, John Edwards at 2%.
"When people vote exclusively on the issues that are important to them, without being influenced by name recognition, celebrity or millions of dollars in Advertising, Congressman Kucinich wins in a landslide", his campaign said today!
August 8th, 2007 at 9:06 amToo long corporations have gotten a free ride knowing that if they fail to properly fund their pensions the government will come along and bail them out. Why can't these corporations be responsible for themselves?
August 8th, 2007 at 9:09 amBut just as there is consequence for not meeting the needs of the people, there is consequence for doing too much for them.
Comment by paul — August 8, 2007 @ 9:03 am
As a conservative, you're showing the immorality of your ways. This man was promised things in a contract, and HE PAID FOR THEM! You fool, justifying thievery and contract-breaking with your bullsh*t about self-reliance. This man PAID for his benefits, and they were STOLEN from him. This is a clear case of corporate crime on a huge level. I suppose that the three women raped and murdered in Connecticut a few weeks ago should have chosen to live somewhere else, right? What a sad, pathetic, ignorant way to live you have adopted, blaming the victims. Really disguntingly sick.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:10 amI believe that government is not answer to the problems in our lives. We are. Individually. Government is a drug to seduces us to dependance.
Comment by paul
Paul: Blanqui, Bukinov and other anarchists are in agreement with you. In some way, I agree with that statement but from a very different POV.
You dislike govt because it regulates (or should) the activities of corporations.
I dislike govt due to its inability to provide good conditions for ALL the people.
BTW, you are advocating non-democratic states. I hope you realize that.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:11 amI wish Kucinich had a realistic chance.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:11 amComment by ronjazz
Ronjazz, great, powerful statement. Thanks.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:13 amTroll
Simply this: The fact that you are paying for a service granted by government does not reveal anything about what you do that is not already revealed in your tax return, which is already an issue repeatedly dealt with in the US constitution. Hence, only a complete moron would try the right to privacy argument against publically funded healthcare.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:13 amronjazz
Well put.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:16 amComment by paul — August 8, 2007 @ 9:03 am
I think what you are suggesting is that we should remove the government from all aspects of our lives -- and provide everything for ourselves. Let's eliminate all taxes, eliminate defense, eliminate all government programs, etc. Let people pay for their own health care (or die), let people pay for their own education, let people put out their own fires, let people do for themselves. Defense can be handled by voluntary militias. Education will be provided for those who can afford it -- ditto doctors. Law enforcement will be much like the wild west of the 19th century. Let's do all people a favor by giving them lots of challenges, and let the fittest survive. If people can't meet the challenges, too bad.
I am always amazed at people who have no problem paying a trillion dollars to fight a "war on terror" but squeal like stuck pigs when asked to pay taxes (most likely less than what they currently pay for health care premiums) to keep citizens healthy.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:16 amPlease explain why you are happy with this expensive, inefficient system, but you condemn a single-payer system with no profit-taking middle men.
Comment by missmolly — August 8, 2007 @ 8:47 am
missmolly. I hope you are right. You sound more informed about healthcare than I am. I am skeptical when I hear that politicians (Republicans or Democrats) have a new program that is going to improve my life. I've worked in the government and for corporations. My experience with government, it was inefficient. I believe that most politicians are less concerned with the results of the program and more interested with controlling the money. You may hate corporations, but the incentive to make more money, nearly illiminates the waste. It would placate me to vote for huge societal safety nets, if I wasn't aware that the huge majority of governmental spending (your money, my money) never makes it to the real intended purpose. Most is used as chits in a partisan power grab.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:18 amAren’t you people sick of these Dems pandering to a union? It’s disgusting.
Comment by Len — August 8, 2007 @ 1:10 am
No, I'm not "sick" of Dems pandering to the working men and women of this country. I am sick of right-wing, anti-American traitors like Len who hate America and want it to go down the drain.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:19 am105
August 8th, 2007 at 9:20 amI think you may be oversimplifying the issue. Conservatives will still need the government to ensure gays cannot marry each other and terminally ill patients cannot have access to medical marijuana.
test
August 8th, 2007 at 9:28 amTypical lib sob story. This man needs to pick himself up by his bootstraps and get a job! Good Christians, Republicans, patriots, men with bibles and guns do not wish to pay for this man's insurance.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:29 amGod Bless America, Praise be to Jesus.
missmolly and Juan C. I also said the answer lies somewhere in the middle. A government can do too little and it can do too much. For example, France. They are more socialized then the U.S. I believe many in France feel that the government has provided too much; to the detriment of individual liberties. They recently elected a more capitalist President to reverse the pendullem.
In every society, there should be debate as to how much government should do. I believe government does enough, most of you do not.
The point I want to stress: When we decide we want more government involvement, please understand it is not free. It costs you money, liberty and independance. Many times the tradeoff is worth it, many times it is not.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:31 amCan not post my full reply.
The short sightedness is on the part of those who would give up liberty for security.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:33 amComment by paul — August 8, 2007 @ 9:18 am
I agree with you that government is often inefficient and riddled with wasteful spending. This is frustrating for conservatives and progressives alike -- although we may bemoan the waste in different areas. My personal beef with government spending is the obscene amount we are paying in Iraq. Halliburton is raking in tons of money with their no-bid contracts -- and that's MY money (yours, too).
I have no major annoyance with the way the government has handled health care so far. Medicare's overhead runs about 1% to 3% (depending on what report you read), and private for-profit companies tend to have overhead percentages running in the teens and can run as high as 25%. As far as I'm concerned, the government has proven they can handle basic health coverage for its citizens better than private companies can.
Of course, Medicare isn't a gold-plated plan that pays for every tiny little thing, and it's not intended to be. It provides basic health care for our elderly and it's been doing a good job of that since 1965. People who wish to purchase supplemental insurance for additional bells and whistles do so. I don't see why we can't extend this system to cover all ages of Americans -- not just those over 65.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:34 am112
August 8th, 2007 at 9:37 amwe're not talking about FISA
Typical lib sob story. This man needs to pick himself up by his bootstraps and get a job! Good Christians, Republicans, patriots, men with bibles and guns do not wish to pay for this man’s insurance.
God Bless America, Praise be to Jesus.
Comment by guns'n'bibles — August 8, 2007 @ 9:29 am
I wonder if this troll usually tells disabled retirees to "get a job" after they've been royally screwed. He'd probably also tell a mugging victim to quit bleeding on the pavement.
Somehow, I can't imagine Jesus having this attitude.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:37 amTroll
What liberty is being given up? The right to not get taxed?
Last I checked, there isn't a nation in the world which grants people that right. Maybe you can point me to one that does.
Dolt.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:39 amHence, only a complete moron would try the right to privacy argument against publically funded healthcare.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 9:13 am
No bruce only a complete moron would not understand that if the gov provides the health care then youre complete health history is in their hands. Idiot.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:39 amComment by guns’n'bibles — August 8, 2007 @ 9:29 am
Comment by missmolly — August 8, 2007 @ 9:37 am
Excuse me miss,
August 8th, 2007 at 9:43 amThis person is not a troll he/she is a toady posing as a troll to reinforce your bigoted negitive stereotype of the christian right.
What liberty is being given up?
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 9:39 am
The rights to property and privacy. I know your slow but I hope I dont have to repeat this too often.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:46 ammissmolly. your posts are very reasonable. I understand your dismay about the war spending. It is contrary to a call for less government. The only way to justify the spending is if you believe the threat from Islamic jihadist is real and significant to our liberty and prosperity; and that the war will reduce that threat. I do believe that it is and that it does. I understand if you believe that the threat is not significant and/or the war in Iraq is not reducing that threat; but making it worse.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:49 amTroll
The government already has the right to levy taxes. It is right there in the constitution. There is no right to not get taxed. Again, you are a moron.
The right to privacy, on the funding side of it, does not come into it. On the hospitals side of it, it doesn't actually change anything because legislation keeping your medical records confidential binds a government hospital just as much as it binds a private one.
Again, you are a moron.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:49 amExcuse me miss,
This person is not a troll he/she is a toady posing as a troll to reinforce your bigoted negitive stereotype of the christian right.
Comment by Troll — August 8, 2007 @ 9:43 am
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA --- I didn't know trolls could get insulted; now I do. Apparently there are some posters so low even the trolls don't want to be associated with them.
As far as my "bigoted negative sterotype of the Christian right" (and I corrected your spelling) -- I think the guns'n'bibles post kind of speaks for itself without any spin from me. I happen to be a Christian myself and this point of view goes against all of my Christian values.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:49 amWell Troll, what are your plans for health care once you reach age 65 so you can maintain your medical privacy from Medicare?
August 8th, 2007 at 9:51 amComment by missmolly — August 8, 2007 @ 9:16 am
Defense must be provided on the national level and this is provided for in the constitution. But much of the other programs which you listed can and should be funded and controlled on a local/state level.
August 8th, 2007 at 9:52 amComment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 9:49 am
A federal judge says otherwise.
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007707130321
August 8th, 2007 at 10:01 amThe wrestlessness among the masses is growing. Those above better start paying attention to those below... else they will fall to the same fate of those before them throughout history.
In the military there is no "make your own way" that the republicans love so much... it is let that man fall behind and you all get bent... its called teamwork... brotherhood... something that the WWII generation shined at.
A balance must be maintained between individualism and communalism ... too much tilt either way and we all pay. If Americans teamed up and focused like a laser beam on freeing ourselves from foreign energy we could kill four or five birds with one stone and change the world while we are at it. The Greed of the GOP is wearing thin.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:06 amWhat liberty is being given up?
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 9:39 am
Ask yourself, do you ever something for nothing? There's always a cost. The questions that never gets asked of patronizing politicians is how are we going to pay for it. What are the opportunity costs?
Image how popular you would be if you walked into a bar and said, "Free beer for everyone!". Or if you friend wrecked his car, "That's okay, take mine" and hand him the keys. That's not realistic, because you don't have an endless supply of money. Our society also does not have an endless supply. People would be more hesitant with new programs, if they didn't feel like they were spending imaginary (or someone else's) money.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:06 amSo when you make rich the people who owns healthcare private companies they are NOT making you pay with your labor… riiiight.
Comment by Juan C — August 8, 2007 @ 9:04 am
No they are not. I have freedom of choice to pay or not to pay. I can choose not to have health care. I can choose to pay cash. I can choose to go to another company. They can not force me to buy their product.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:06 amTroll
Read it again.
"The Supreme Court has ruled that the government cannot impose an income tax on anything but the profits and gains."
You still have to pay some taxes. Cryer found a loophole and exploited it (IE: The law needs changing to handle that sort of nonsense) but it doesn't speak of a constitutional right to not pay taxes.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:07 am125
August 8th, 2007 at 10:07 amyour article reads: "A federal jury unanimously found Tommy Cryer not guilty this week on two misdemeanor counts of failure to file."
jury does not equal judge
a jury found OJ not guilty
juries, at times, do odd things
A balance must be maintained between individualism and communalism … too much tilt either way and we all pay. If Americans teamed up and focused like a laser beam on freeing ourselves from foreign energy we could kill four or five birds with one stone and change the world while we are at it.
I agree with this absolutely.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:08 amOme of these days righteous Christian men, good Republicans and proud Americans will go after all this liberal slime talk and put an end to it.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:12 amGod Bless America - Praise Jesus
The Greed of the GOP is wearing thin.
Comment by Gerald Gibson — August 8, 2007 @ 10:06 am
I agree people need to come together to achieve certain goals for e good of society. I just dont think empowering politicians in DC is a good idea.
The greed is not only the GOP the greed is also from the left who are lusting after the money of the "wealthy" while at the same time donate much less money and time to charity than their counterparts on the right.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:13 amComment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 10:07 am
What the supreme court found in roe vs wade is a right to privacy. Which if brought to its logical conclusion would prevent the income tax on labor which this jury found was not compulsory anyway.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:19 amTroll
I would like to see the source of your information on that, and how the data was collected because while Conservatives might give noisily, I strongly suspect that they give less.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:21 amThe right to privacy is the Fourth Amendment.
The right of congress to levy income taxes is the Sixteenth Amendment.
In law, the later amendment overrules the earlier one. IE: There is a specific exception made in the constitution allowing income taxes to be charged.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:27 amComment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 10:21 am
I have to go but I found this.
http://www.catalogueforphilanthropy.org/cfp/db/generosity.php?year=2004
August 8th, 2007 at 10:32 amComment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 10:27 am
Yes on gains or profit. Not on wages.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:34 amThe greed is not only the GOP the greed is also from the left who are lusting after the money of the “wealthy†while at the same time donate much less money and time to charity than their counterparts on the right.
Comment by Troll — August 8, 2007 @ 10:13 am
Fascinating claim. Care to back that up with some data? Try to make it a link from a source that has a little credibility -- not just somebody else's blog.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:34 amIf Americans teamed up and focused like a laser beam on freeing ourselves from foreign energy we could kill four or five birds with one stone and change the world while we are at it.
Comment by paul — August 8, 2007 @ 10:08 am
AMEN!
August 8th, 2007 at 10:35 amOme of these days righteous Christian men, good Republicans and proud Americans will go after all this liberal slime talk and put an end to it.
God Bless America - Praise Jesus
Comment by guns'n'bibles — August 8, 2007 @ 10:12 am
OK, if you really ARE a toady posing as a troll, you are doing a hilarious job. But if you go after "liberal slime talk", you will also have to go after much of what Jesus taught, since His admonitions about caring for the poor, the widows and the orphans, His directives to love one another, turn the other cheek, and give your cloak as well as your coat would probably be interpreted by you as "liberal slime talk".
You need to be careful -- this paradox could cause your head to explode.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:42 amI just love these trolls and their vitriol! If that is their TRUE position and the Republican candidates can offer nothing else, then it will be wonderful to see 54 or 55 Democratic Senators, 275 to 290 Democratic Congressmen/Congresswomen and Madam President after next year's elections.
And no amount of vote fraud/vote flipping is gonna change that!
August 8th, 2007 at 10:52 amTroll
Interesting link.
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d03/tables/dt020.asp
1) Mississippi - most generous.
24.0% poverty
2) Arkansas
25% poverty.
3) Oklahoma
A bit better at 18%
4) Louisiana
Back up there at 21.3%
5) Alabama
At 21.1%
Now the bottom five
1) Miserly New Hampshire...
7.1% poverty.
2) Massachusetts
11.3%
3) Rhode Island
9.1%
4) New Jersey
8.9%
5) Wisconsin
12.1%
I note a pattern forming. Hmmm...
August 8th, 2007 at 10:53 amNote the percentages are poverty stats.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:54 amguns'n'bibles. Notice what he decided to put first. I'm sure the principle subjects of the bible would understand.
Sheeeeesh. I'm guessing this troll's daddy is a card carrying member of the NRA and momma is a farm animal.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:59 amWhat's wrong with America? It's run by anti-human corporate greed, fascists who prop themselves up as being virtuous, and the main stream media who hides and obfuscates all this while the good 'ole US of A goes down in flames.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:01 amNo bruce only a complete moron would not understand that if the gov provides the health care then youre complete health history is in their hands. Idiot.
Comment by Troll — August 8, 2007 @ 9:39 am
How do you know it's not already, w/ the way the Bush Admin behaves?
August 8th, 2007 at 11:02 amIs not alot of medical business - transcriptions, record keeping, etc, outsouced to India? Wouldn't that give BushCo the "right" to eavesdrop on the transmision of the data?
No bruce only a complete moron would not understand that if the gov provides the health care then youre complete health history is in their hands. Idiot.
Comment by Troll — August 8, 2007 @ 9:39 am
Yeah, makes a lot more sense to have it controlled by corporations who's only concern is making money. I'll take my chances with the government. Not only are you an idiot, you're an asshat to boot.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:05 amAmerica's health should not been decided by profit. No accountant should get to decide whether or not a person should get what the doctor prescribes because it may or may not affect the bottom line.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:08 am"As a conservative, you’re showing the immorality of your ways. This man was promised things in a contract, and HE PAID FOR THEM! You fool, justifying thievery and contract-breaking with your bullsh*t about self-reliance. This man PAID for his benefits, and they were STOLEN from him. This is a clear case of corporate crime on a huge level. I suppose that the three women raped and murdered in Connecticut a few weeks ago should have chosen to live somewhere else, right? What a sad, pathetic, ignorant way to live you have adopted, blaming the victims. Really disguntingly sick.
Comment by ronjazz — August 8, 2007 @ 9:10 am"
OK, smart guy. If the company that promises the benefits goes under, then who should pay for the benefits when there simply is no money to do so? The taxpayer? I don't think so.
If you buy insurance for your house for 20 years, and the insurance company then goes bankrupt, who's gonna pay if your house burns down before you get new insurance? Should I pay for it with my taxes? I don't think so.
There is nothing wrong with this country.
If things are as bad for this fellow as he indicates, two things: He should have planned better. And he should be looking for ways out of the situation, rather than depending on government to come save him.
In the United States, we are free to make good decisions, and we are free to make bad decisions. Or we are free to make no decisions at all and simply wait for someone else to do all the work. But don't snivel if it takes a while for help to get there.
To those of you who think this fellow has it so rough, I have a challenge:
Why wait for the government to bail him out? Get together and send him part of your paycheck each week, RIGHT NOW! There's no reason he and his wife should suffer while waiting for the government to take our money through higher taxes and give it to him.
Cut out the middlemen, he'll get more cash, quicker, if the government doesn't take it's cut, running it through it's bureaucracy.
Do it, now, and then report back how good you all feel for being great Americans! There's no need to wait! This guy obviously needs help now! Save him!
August 8th, 2007 at 11:14 amEdwards grin was scary. Like the uncaring Bush. No one was smiling except Edwards in hearing this tragic story.
Biden hit the nail on the head. John, you weren't walking the line, when it counted, during your six years in the Senate. You can't be trusted when you only walk the line as a PR stunt to become President.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:14 amhellinabucket
Accountants don't make good managers. Their natural function is more to bayonet the wounded.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:16 amOK, smart guy. If the company that promises the benefits goes under, then who should pay for the benefits when there simply is no money to do so?
The whole question is made moot if government provides healthcare.
Oh, and trusting a company you have worked for for 36 years? Not exactly a damning decision, considering not everyone is a stock market genius.
There is nothing wrong with this country.
Actually there is. America contains people like you who honestly believe that so long as you have yours, everybody else can go to hell. Of course, if you ever need help, please, feel free to snivel as much as you like.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:33 amBruce, cold but true. Bayonet the wounded.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:45 amhellinabucket
Not that cold. I started out in an Auditing firm. I got to see the other side of it: Sometimes a company needs bayonetting BEFORE it dips into its employees pension funds.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:51 amCompanies should have to buy bankruptcy insurance to cover their obligations should they go belly up.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:02 pmTroll
Companies should never be able to get their mitts on their employees' pension fund contributions. Pensions should be externally administered.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:06 pmBruce,
August 8th, 2007 at 12:10 pmThats another idea that is reasonable. The same should go for Social Security funding.
And every officer of the company should be held liable in civil and possibly criminal court.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:15 pmEdwards grin was scary. Like the uncaring Bush. No one was smiling except Edwards in hearing this tragic story.
Comment by Fools on the Hill — August 8, 2007 @ 11:14 am
That was certainly the creepiest thing I've seen in awhile--before yesterday I had an overall moderately favorable impression of him.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:38 pmEdwards cares for the poor, just ask one of homeless he let's stay at his 28,000 sq ft mansion.
crickets creeping....
August 8th, 2007 at 12:44 pmor chirping...
August 8th, 2007 at 12:44 pmShorter-paul
Poor people defrauded of their benefits and pensions are suckers and deserve to have their retirements ruined and... beware the scary elitist liberal snobs.
August 8th, 2007 at 12:58 pmGo to Google and search "surgery delayed", or "surgery cancelled". Then click on a few of the links and actually read them.
Then come back and tell me again why you want the country with the greatest healthcare system in the world to retool it to match the systems that are failing and wish they had what we have now.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:13 pmI am ashamed of the healthcare system in this country.
Comment by Zooey
Canada has a health card "waiting" for you.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:24 pmPeople tend to forget a few things.
1. In the Constitution of these United States, there is NOTHING about providing healthcare for the citizens.
2. The federal Government has NO MONEY of it's own, so WE the PEOPLE will be footing the bill.
3. People in ALL of the countries with a unified healthcare system, all say the same thing, it's a worthless system, that has reduced the level of healthcare to all except those who can affor to BUY THEIR OWN healthcare elsewhere.
4. The next comment will be to tax the rich.. The rich already pay most of the taxes anyways. If you increase the taxes the first thing that happens is unemployment goes up, and the people you are trying to help, get hurt the worst.
Do I have the answer? NO!, Is what has been proposed and answer. NO. Actually, any proposal for a universal healthcare system will be met with a legal objection, that will easily win, because healthcare to all citizens of the United States is NOT a guarentee under the Constitution.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pmConservatives have absolutely NO solution for this brave man's plight. Nada! That's just one of the many reasons why they are going to get wiped out next year.
Paul, the fact that John Edwards lives in a big house is completely irrelevant. It's just meaningless trivia sold by conservatives because they have no cogent argument to counter Edwards' message which resonates with a majority of Americans. FDR was a rich man and lived in a number of big houses. Teddy Roosevelt was a very rich man, but that didn't stop him from pushing the inheritance tax. Teddy Kennedy is a rich man, but that doesn't stop him from passionately fighting to raise the minimum wage and find a way to provide universal healthcare. American history is filled with rich men who worked for the greater good and supported policies which were not necessarily in their own economic self-interest. The fact that modern conservatives don't have the imagination to understand this says speaks to their lack of character.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:33 pmDouglas G., what part of "provide for the general welfare" don't you understand?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:35 pm#168, if what the framers meant was universal healthcare, they would have enabled it from the start. They were real clear about what they meant and what they didn't mean.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:38 pmthey have no cogent argument to counter Edwards’ message
I don't know what cogent means, but here' an argument. It costs money. Not funny money, but real money. Our money.
The people that worked for Enron. Invested there lives and money in the company. They lost everything. Should you be forced by the government to take the money you have been saving for you kids college to bail them out of the financial trouble?
Why do we so readily agree to take money from the people that earn it, to give away to other people. Do you think it's not really money? Or it hasn't been earned? Or has no other purpose? If it was money directly out of you pocket, would it make a difference? (Really?)
August 8th, 2007 at 1:44 pm#168 - In further comment to "provide for the general welfare", let me ask you this?
If ther framers meant healthcare, didnt they also mean to build everyone their own home? I mean really, part of a persons good well being is having their own home..
What about a nice big screen tv, and a nice car to drive, free food, etc etc ad naseum.
They did not build everyone free houses, give them free horses and cattle, free food, and free healthcare.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:44 pmWhy would any politician worry about our health care, they're taken care of for life with their own congressional program. The Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:57 pmEdward's is a multi-millionaire. Like many successful hollywood elites. Isn't it a little arrogant that they don't necessarily want to divide their personal wealth among the poor; but their more content dictating that we surrender our earnings for their purpose. I wish I had the confidence that I knew better how to spend your money than you do.
Just as most here decry Bush's credibility because he didn't serve in Vietnam; I find it hard to listen to rich elites that maintain their millions while they advocate equality fueled with other peoples money. Doesn't liberty presume that I can make decisions about the money that I have earned? If you support expanded gov't programs, just understand you are sacrificing that liberty (just as you accuse conservatives of trading liberty for security).
August 8th, 2007 at 1:59 pmpaul
Oh come off it. You are just another conservative who thinks that rich people are evil who hates, absolutely hates the idea that a rich person might do good.
You do the exact same thing whenever any other rich person argues for the common good "Ooh look X rich guy has a big house. What a hypocrite."
Now, the reason why Bush's war record is an issue: Is because Bush's campaign made it an issue. He was portrayed as braver then those guys who actually went and served.
A constant barrage of bullshit from the Right praises to high heaven the courage of being in favour of the war, while a constant barrage of mumbling excuses for not serving in it is just as present.
Gore, he's done something. When his son was caught speeding and on drugs? He was driving a prius. That house of his with its huge energy consumption? Uses alternate energy sources and Gore buys offsets. But hey, Gore's a hypocrite because he happens to be rich, and arguing in favour of something which doesn't only benefit the rich.
You righties took the exact same line when it was FDR. It nothing new, it is just that you hate the idea of the rich doing good.
Oh and back to the war, if you are so in favour of the war, go and fight in it. Then, you will have demonstrated your sincerity on being in favour of the war. Until then, we will continue to think of you as borrowing the courage of those who are serving.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:15 pmThe more you know about the story...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/us/politics/07demsforum.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
August 8th, 2007 at 2:19 pmhttp://www.macsmind.com/wordpress/2007/08/08/who-is-steve-skvara/
August 8th, 2007 at 2:20 pmjack moss
What, problems aren't problems if they back more then one president?
Oh yeah, I forgot, Righties don't see problems. They just clap their hands over their ears, scream lalalala and screw their eyes shut as everything collapses around them.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:25 pmWhen you go to McDonald's, how long do you have to wait to get to the counter and how long do you wait for your food? How does it taste? In your Utopia, with the federal government taking over all fast food, it would be free. The downside would be they tell you exactly what you can have, how much you can have, and when you can have it, and IF you can have it. HOW IS THAT BETTER???
To all you libtards that want the government in complete control of every breath you take and every bowel movement you make, please show me statistics that prove the government is more efficient than private enterprise. You probably can't even cherry-pick ONE! But even if you do find one, so what? Overwhelmingly, across the board, time and time again the government proves to be LESS efficient than private enterprise.
What is wrong with you? Seriously, what is wrong with you? How can you think healthcare would be better with the federal government running it? You have got to be completely insane.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:28 pmLTV filed for bankruptcy on December 29, 2000 when Bill Clinton was in office!!!
http://www.ltvsteel.com/
Wake up people and do a little research before falling for the lies and deceit of liberals.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:30 pmjack moss
Oh, and LTV was a steelmill when it went broke. I fail to see how Hillary Clinton had anything to do with it. And of course, an activist asking a question at a political debate, well now that's just sinister.
This isn't about how Bush broke national healthcare, in fact Bush has remarkably little to do with this story, it is about whether or not to bring in (Not bring back, bring in) a better system to take care of America's sick.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:31 pmGore buys offsets.
You're not serious. Offsets, like roman catholic indulgences?
How about adultry offsets. Would have saved Bill some trouble.
It's okay to pollute as long as you pay for it? That's elitist.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:33 pmWake up people and do a little research before falling for the lies and deceit of liberals.
Comment by JD — August 8, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
What lies? Nobody claimed LTV went under when Bush was president.
This is about the issue of national healthcare, as hard as you Republicans might find it to accept the idea, Clinton wasn't perfect and when he left office, America still had some problems in need of fixing. National healthcare was one of them.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:34 pmIt’s okay to pollute as long as you pay for it? That’s elitist.
Comment by paul — August 8, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
I can just see you arguing now in a china shop where you have broken some plates
So it is okay if I break your plates so long as I pay for it? That's elitist.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:36 pmI think what this little slice of a wider debate is really about is how the two parties approach governing. The modern day neocons regard it as a problem. Something to be drowned in a bathtub if I remember the quote correctly. This is reenforced by the RW noise makers that anything run by the government is bad, intrusive and ultimately leads to communism. So with that POV why is it any surprise that bridges fall, pensions are canceled and cities drown? It's a logical outcome of a far right philosophy.
The fly in this ointment is of course Iraq. Trying to convince the public that it's ok to spend trillions of dollars, shed as much blood as possible to prop up a working government in a far away land is necessary, but that universal health care is "too costly" is laughable.
The bottom line for most folks will be this: Are you willing to pay more taxes, to actually pitch in and help out and (God forbid!) sacrifice to make this country work? The answer for more and more people is increasingly yes.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:53 pm"...please show me statistics that prove the government is more efficient than private enterprise. You probably can’t even cherry-pick ONE! But even if you do find one, so what? Overwhelmingly, across the board, time and time again the government proves to be LESS efficient than private enterprise.
Comment by ninja97 — August 8, 2007 @ 2:28 pm
--------------------------------------------------
http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/4981.html
There ya go -- third paragraph. Medicare operates more efficiently than private companies.
Now, let's address your claim of "Overwhelmingly, across the board, time and time again the government proves to be LESS efficient than private enterprise." I agree there are some areas of government spending that could use more oversight (the trillion-dollar war in Iraq, for example -- and much of that money is going to Halliburton and other contractors -- PRIVATE contractors). But since you say government inefficiency is "overwhelming", "across the board", etc. I'm sure you have an extensive list of your own. Care to post it? With data to back it up?
August 8th, 2007 at 2:55 pmWhere was this guys UNION? Why wasnt it watching out for him? He paid a lot of dues for them to do a task which they did not do. He should sue the union.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:58 pmTroll
What could his union have done about it? Unions are organisations which allow workers to bargain more effectively with their bosses. That's about as powerful and as sinister as unions get. When a company goes broke there really isn't much a union can do about it.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:02 pmThey could have made provisions in the contracts they negotiated that the pension and health care for retirees be funded.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:08 pmTroll
They probably did, and it probably didn't make one iota of a difference. The guys who should be sued, in all honest, were the auditors.
As you can tell I think like a South African in these circumstances - we don't so much have mandatory testing we have accounting and auditing standards along with the rule of thumb: If you miss the fraud or material error, you are in deep shit.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:13 pmhonesty.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:13 pm"What lies? Nobody claimed LTV went under when Bush was president."
The implication is that this gentleman does not have health care because of George Bush. Everything is Bush's fault... health care, the bridge collapse, global warming, Katrina, 9-11.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:15 pmThat’s about as powerful and as sinister as unions get.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
"In the 2000 election cycle, the AFL-CIO alone reported spending over $4.1 million in union funds on federal campaign communications to its members; the 10 largest component members of the AFL-CIO reported spending an additional $3.8 million. The National Education Association reported spending over $2.9 million. The total of almost $11 million does not include events, such as candidate appearances before local union shops, that each cost less than $2,000. In sharp contrast, only one of the 10 largest American corporations, as ranked by Fortune, reported any such expenditures: AT&T reported spending $263,872. "
http://library.findlaw.com/2002/Aug/14/131015.html
August 8th, 2007 at 3:17 pmTroll
Still won't stop a company going broke or a CEO comitting fraud. Unions seriously aren't as powerful on a day to day basis as you are told.
Yes, they are politically active because if they back off of politics you end up with the cops beating up people for going on strike (As happened in the early years of th union movement) but they aren't the bogey men they are made out to be.
The core function of a union is simply a means of workers negotiating better pay for themselves with their bosses.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:24 pmJD
How is that the implication? This is a story about an issue liberals care about, and that liberals are striving through Congress.
You know there really is more to life then GW Bush.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:26 pmhttp://labornotes.org/node/513
Article on the salaries of Union top brass.
With these kinds of salaries youd think they would do a better job.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:26 pmStriving to get through congress. I am really going nuts with the typos tonight.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:27 pmTroll
Do a better job of what? Running people's companies for them?
August 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pmI am a union supporter. But they have their flaws. This was interesting.
http://labornotes.org/node/513
With those kinds of salaries the leadership should be doing a much better job.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pmNo just looking out for the little guy who pays their salaries.
But I understand audits matter maybe they should be sued.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:32 pmTroll
There are reforms needed in the union movement, make no mistake, but it is a seperate issue.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:32 pmTroll
There are limits to what a union can do.
Personally, I think the national union is no longer as effective as it should be simply because globalisation limits what unions can ask for.
What is needed is a new, far bigger step in unionisation - the introduction of international unions.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:35 pmBruce
August 8th, 2007 at 3:39 pmI did not think this was off topic. Not trying to be trollish. Corporations, auditors and unions should be held accountable. Instead this will be used as a political tool to argue for more gov..
"How is that the implication?"
Bruce - listen to the answers from the dem candidates and the "spin" from the news media to find your answer. Think for yourself, do some research, and don't just visit lib sites and blogs. The liberals "tactic" of never taking responsibility is nothing new.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:40 pm...the introduction of international unions.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — August 8, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
Interesting idea but reform is 1st priority.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:43 pmTroll
Look, a union's power of a business is external. It would be like, taking a company's creditors book and suing the creditors of the company because the company was badly managed and went broke.
Auditors, on the other hand, are supposed to look at the books and ensure that they are reasonably correct. If the company is dipping into pension funds, the auditors should be screaming out a warning about it. They could be sued if they through negligence, or through "other" motives, missed or ignored the fraud. (Think Arthur Anderson.)
Ultimate responsibility however, lies on the guys who run the business: Management. While the auditors of a company should detect serious irregularities with the pension fund during the annual audit, management is the cause of those irregularities and those irregularities occur when it is most obvious that they would - when the company is struggling.
Accountants, and auditors in particular, have a duty to bayonet the wounded and reveal the problems within a company's accounts because of the need to protect the vulnerable, but management runs the business.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:53 pmThe implication is that this gentleman does not have health care because of George Bush. Everything is Bush’s fault… health care, the bridge collapse, global warming, Katrina, 9-11.
Comment by JD — August 8, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
If you see an implication that Bush is at fault because this guy's pension and health care are toast, it must be from your guilt. Nobody has even suggested such a thing. The health care situation has been quietly going downhill since before Bush, before Clinton, before the other Bush, etc. Same with global warming. Bush isn't being blamed for Hurricane Katrina -- nobody expects him to control the weather. His FEMA department IS being blamed for how the aftermath was handled (but even there, there was plenty of blame to go around). Only conspiracy theorists believe that Bush was at the controls of the airplanes that flew into the WTC (but there is a valid point made that he could have paid more attention to the PDB he received a month earlier). Please know that not every question raised or complaint lodged is a finger pointing at Bush.
The gentleman's question was not to blame Bush for anything. He didn't even blame the Republican party for anything. He stated a problem he had resulting from a system we have in our country (employers providing health insurance and employers providing pensions) that is clearly broken. He was asking the candidates what, if anything, they planned to do to change the system. He didn't ask who was to blame.
August 8th, 2007 at 4:16 pmJD
Bush's name was not mentioned in the responses on that particular issue - indeed, the answers given to that issue, didn't say "Bush broke the system" they said the system was broken. I am forced to conclude that you are a liar JD, because you came on here, and made a claim which I checked up on, and found to be false.
August 8th, 2007 at 4:16 pmOh, and anybody to read the whole transcript, which deals with alot of other issues on which Bush's name is mentioned for failures he did make, I found a handy blog with it on:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/08/sweet_dem_aflcio_forum_special_4.html#more
August 8th, 2007 at 4:18 pmMSNBC’s Olbermann-moderated debate Tues. night averages less than one million viewers! Only 914,000 tune-in… Lowest rated debate of the 2007 political season
So much for the ratings geting Olbermann
August 8th, 2007 at 6:46 pmIt's not provide for the general welfare:
to make available; furnish
It's promote the general welfare:
To contribute to the growth, enlargement, or prosperity of (any process or thing that is in course); to forward; to further; to encourage; to advance; to excite; as, to promote learning; to promote disorder; to promote a business venture.
But, it is provide for the common defense.
make available or furnish the common defense vs. encourage general welfare.
words matter. I believe that's what the founders intended.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:34 pmThe people who have insurance and are paying through the nose for it are not the wealthy- they are all the middle class that have employers that will not legally pay into it anymore. The middle class have terrible HMO,s that are run by the insurance companies and most don't include drugs any more that is all seperate. Yes, we would love the same benefits as the heads in Washington get. Which candidate is going to give us that. Why should we as a people give golden parachutes to the top pharm, insurance and fortune companies that are planning behind our back on how to hire the best lawyers to screw us. Is this what are fathers WWII, Vietnam and Irag went to fight for. HMMM something is very, very, very wrong. How come so many people have woke up in the last several years. It,s because they are getting sick and tired of being lied to and then they watch their company pres retire with a fortune. HMMM who started that. Guess who ? A univerasal health care system is going to be the only option. Unless you like eating rice everyday. The Chinese have the keys to our homes, and rice is okay for them. Soon we will have factories back with our seniors working in them for $3.oo an hour. But them we almost have that now WALMART. But our seniors aren't working Walmart anymore they speak english the workers in Walmart can't even do that. Wonder what Sam Walmart is thinking in his cloud in the sky. This isn't what I wanted. Made in America, workers are american- the greeters were our seniors, Welcome to Walmart. They have disappeared. This country has been taken and it only took 8 years to do it. Not that I agreed with NAFTA. Denis K. you have gotten this right from the begining. Know you will not be the nominee but if you could only keep fighting for us middle class who are becoming the poor fast.
August 9th, 2007 at 12:17 amThe man says, I can't afford to pay for my family's health care, what's wrong with America? What does his inability to pay for health care have to do with America? America is a free country which allows you to pay for health care however you choose. Stealing from the rich to pay for your health care is not a viable option. It should be shunned.
The government should be ashamed for teaching people to rely on their services instead of themselves. This man should never have put all his eggs in one basket. THAT'S the tragedy.
The answer is to teach people how to care for themselves, not force others to care for them.
August 9th, 2007 at 12:19 amJimmy, it's amazing how most here don't understand that.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:21 amYup, let's have the middle class foot the bill for all the lazy lefties who think everyone owes them something because they are too busy arguing on message forums instead of working hard to support themselves.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:36 pmYOU are what's wrong with America, thinking it owes you something.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:37 pmAgreed with the few above comments -- I am sorry this man is having problems, but that does not mean that I should foot the bill for his family. I am only 32 and so far I've retired from the Marine Corps, and have worked in corporate America for years, I have multiple options to cover my butt for the future.
Ever hear of The Ant and the Grasshopper? Obviously this guy didn't.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:51 pmFor those so willing to give up their rights to the government and put healthcare in their hands answer me this:
How would you feel about the state of your healthcare being in the hands of George Bush for the past seven years?
If that doesn't shake you to your core I don't know what will. Yes, something needs to be done about our healthcare system, BUT giving it up to our broken government is not the answer.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:57 pmMaybe if the government wasn't already busy taking 1/3 of this guys paycheck, he could have saved more for the future... How is RAISING taxes (like every lib says he will) supposed to help this man plan for retirement??? That's the problem with libs, they want the govt to provide everything for them. Well, wake up and smell the coffee, govt is EVIL and should be reduced as much as possible.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:58 pmits because christian doctors do not want national health,,,they refuse to take care of the poor feeling that is the poors problem,,,,jesus who is he....to them it is some guy from mexico
August 9th, 2007 at 3:00 pmUniversal healthcare will never, ever happen in America. There are far too many selfish, greedy, ignorant people that wouldn't give a squirt of piss to help their neighbor. See the comments above.
They would rather pay twice as much to prevent everyone from having medical coverage.
The rest of the developed world has universal healthcare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WORLDHEALTH2.png
The forces of fascism are too strong, the interests too entrenched, and the common American's literacy and awareness is not high enough to dislodge them.
That is why America's health care is number 38 in life expectancy and is behind even some developing countries, despite spending the most per capita on health care of any country in the world.
http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
If Americans can watch Sicko and not learn anything to improve their situation, they deserve what they get, which is people getting screwed despite following the rules, working hard and being a good, productive citizen. When the incentives are messed up like in America, why should you bother working hard and being a good, productive citizen? Wonder why America has a "morality crisis"?
August 9th, 2007 at 3:13 pmThe solution to the problem is capitalism. By adding more government interference and regulation to the problem, things will only get worse.
When will you people realize that you're strangling your own humanity the second you enter "victim mode"? I feel bad for the guy, but I'm sorry, it's not America's fault. And I certainly don't want to pay for anybody's health care but my own family's.
August 9th, 2007 at 3:15 pmThis guy is lucky - anyone hear the recent stories on NPR about people still in FEMA trailers in New Orleans. Most sit around and think about killing themselves...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12592168
"What's it like to live around here?" I asked.
"Well," he replied, "I'll be honest."
"Ain't a day goes by when I don't think about killing myself."
All these candidates are going to smile at the camera - spew out some cookie cutter response and go about their business - while the people of America continue to suffer...
August 9th, 2007 at 3:21 pmFor the record, I'm one of those without health insurance. And I won't accept someone else buying it for me. It's my responsibility.
August 9th, 2007 at 3:34 pmI am so ashamed to be an American right now.
August 9th, 2007 at 3:37 pmMy "leaders" should feel a million times more shame than I.
Are you kidding me? You think tears will affect these Vampire-like candidates? There's no blood pumping through their hearts. Tears, tales of woe, etc. are all futile. You can't move someone who has no feelings or heart.
August 9th, 2007 at 3:44 pmAnd to the person that says this fascism will end when bush is out of office, i'm a democrat but it's clear to see that this is part of a bigger picture. The dems have enabled Bush on everything he's pushed for. They can't save you now. Who can?
Ron Paul. Open your eyes or you're in for the ride of your life.
Yeah. I heard arguments from actual, living beings, that you are responsible for your health, so don't complain if you get sick...
And my doctor said it was my fault my insurance didn't cover something. I should have bought a more expensive one.
August 9th, 2007 at 4:15 pmI know. I should have bought a Ferrari, too, and while we're at it, a little island in the Carribean.
I dont believe for one second that the guy was not planted there
August 10th, 2007 at 2:59 pmHey Realist,
I got a squirt for ya, he, he!
The ONLY reason everything costs so much is govt itself. Healthcare and education are prime examples of govt compulsion, self protectionism and disequal privilege.
That's why college grads can't name all three branches of govt, secure in the impressed knowledge that govt cares deeply for their welfare, and that they needn't pay attention to all the good samaritans comprising all govt employment who forego their own best interests for the common good. The dears, we musn't mind those boxes of pens and staplers they pilfer, they are just the iceberg's tip afterall.
Higher education is so heavily subsidized that the superficial demand created ensures that large percenatges never make it to sophmore, because they shouldn't have been there to begin with scholastically, a wasted seat.
A govt that had adhered to it's intended constitutional limits would not have crowded out of the markets so many that would have otherwise been taxpaying producers, when you can't beat em, you join or die. Less producers lost to govt just means less poverty overall. Like the sole proprietor whose govt costs of doing business keep rising unabated, that he can reduce his own pay only so much and remain liquid, thus yet viable.
August 11th, 2007 at 1:42 amtesting 123
August 11th, 2007 at 12:22 pmWhere is the post you are blocking me from making against your use rules please?
August 11th, 2007 at 12:31 pmSearch dunwalke on the web (Catherine Fitts) and see the real deal taxpayers get from this govt. As if what we can visibly see of govt's atrocities and self aggrandizing frivolities aren't bad enough, the wonderous net makes available that purposely not seen in lamestream academe or media, or propagandist stink tanks.
August 11th, 2007 at 12:33 pmWHEN, OH WHEN, WILL THE VOTERS FINALLY COME TO THE SENSIBLE CONCLUSION THAT THE 2008 ELECTIONS, AS WELL AS ALL FUTURE ELCTIONS, MUST BECOME A BATTLE OF US VERSUS THEM, (THE VOTERS VERSUS THE POLITICIANS), RATHER THAN DEMOCRATS VERSUS REPUBLICANS. THE POLITICIANS OF BOTH PARTIES HAVE PROVEN OVER THE DECADES THAT THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO CARRY OUT THEIR DUTIES IN A MANNER THAT IS, FIRST AND FOREMOST, IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF OUR NATION AND ALL OF ITS CITIZENS. THE VOTERS MUST BAND TOGETHER TO BECOME THE MOST POWERFUL AND INFLUENTIAL "SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP". IF WE FAIL TO DO THIS SOON, OUR NATION IS DOOMED TO CONTINUE ITS DOWNWARD SPIRAL.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:24 pm