Gitmo Lawyers File Constitutional Challenge Of Recently-Passed FISA Bill
Gitmo Lawyers File Constitutional Challenge Of Recently-Passed FISA Bill
Yesterday, lawyers for Guantanamo Bay detainees asked a federal judge in San Francisco to invalidate the recently-passed FISA law that lets the Bush administration conduct warrantless surveillance on suspected terrorists without first getting court-approved warrants.
“We are asking your honor, as swiftly as possible, to declare this statute unconstitutional,” said Michael Avery, a lawyer for the Center for Constitutional Rights. … “Neither Congress nor the president has the power to repeal the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirements,” Avery said.
In CCR v. Bush, the Center is arguing that the government’s surveillance jeopardizes its ability to represent Gitmo clients. CCR reports that it has engaged in thousands of telephone calls and e-mails with people outside the United States in the course of its representation.
The Center writes, “Given that the government has accused many of CCR’s overseas clients of being associated with Al Qaeda or of being of interest to the 9/11 investigation, there is little question that these attorneys fall within the likely range of victims of the NSA Surveillance Program.” CCR Executive Director Vincent Warren said:
It is virtually certain that the NSA spied on our confidential communications with our clients as well as conversations with other American attorneys outside of the U.S. The president violated his oath of office to faithfully execute the laws of this nation and instead secretly broke the law for years to spy on Americans. He has taken an axe to the Constitution.
Anthony Coppolino, a special counsel to the Justice Department, refused to rebut the challenge to the new law. Copppolino offered this defense: “It’s possible that their clients were and it’s possible that their clients were not” spied on.
U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker has not indicated when he will rule on the case.
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With this SCOTUS? "I just say good luck!"
August 10th, 2007 at 12:33 pmAnthony Coppolino: “It’s possible that their clients were and it’s possible that their clients were not†spied on.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:34 pm- - That's some sturdy limb you're out there on, Anthony.
Hey, that was kind of cool.
I hit the Post button and I saw my comment vanish from the box and magically appear as the first comment.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:34 pmFinally, someone with several pairs of balls in their political pants. These are sad times when lawyers carry the torch for Democracy where Congressman have willingly failed to do so.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:35 pmDemocrats aided in passing it, so what's the fuss all about? It's a good bill.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:35 pm- - That’s some sturdy limb you’re out there on, Anthony.
Comment by Badmoodman — August 10, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
This underscores the problem, Badmoonman. Yes, you're right, Anthony is on a thin branch, but under thses conditions, how do any of us know what's going on?
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:36 pmAt some point the case will likely be dismissed as the Gitmo lawyers will be unable to prove they or their clients were spied on using this new law.
This seems to be how the courts, under conservative jurists, are dismissing cases without ruling on the merits. So it's sort of a catch 22 and the secrecy aspect makes it all worse.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:36 pm#
Democrats aided in passing it, so what’s the fuss all about? It’s a good bill.
Comment by CT_Version 2 — August 10, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Easy to disagree w/ that one. I disagree. I have yet to hear one cogent argument from the right about why Bushco shouldn't get warrants, or play by the rules. It's about oversight and accountability.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:37 pmSo it’s sort of a catch 22 and the secrecy aspect makes it all worse.
Comment by James — August 10, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
Yep... welcome to Bizarroworld...
August 10th, 2007 at 12:38 pmRemember that the old FISA law *allowed* the administration to obtain retroactive warrants as they were given 72 hours of free rein (if certified by the admin as needing that time).
August 10th, 2007 at 12:38 pmI believe none other than the supreme court narrowed the ability of people to argue that a law was unconstitutional if they were unable to prove they were impacted by it (which would seem to be the case here).
August 10th, 2007 at 12:40 pm#
Finally, someone with several pairs of balls in their political pants. These are sad times when lawyers carry the torch for Democracy where Congressman have willingly failed to do so.
Comment by J Lewd — August 10, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
It's easier taking in what you say when it's not quite so, um "obscene", J Lewd. Ya got valid points to make, BTW. Jes sayin'...
'Course, on the other hand, if yer nerves are shot and yer patience is worn out from this endless insanity and ya jes' can't stand hearin' a public figure tell one more obvious lie, I can understand that too...
August 10th, 2007 at 12:40 pm#
I believe none other than the supreme court narrowed the ability of people to argue that a law was unconstitutional if they were unable to prove they were impacted by it (which would seem to be the case here).
Comment by James — August 10, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
Right on both points, James. Still haven't heard a valid argument from anone as to why FISA didn't work. NOT ONCE!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 12:41 pmStill haven’t heard a valid argument from anone as to why FISA didn’t work. NOT ONCE!!!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
ESPECIALLY after FISA was amended to allow a wiretap PRIOR to recieving a warrant.
IDIOTS, traitors, haters of American values=Republicsum
August 10th, 2007 at 12:45 pmAnd Bush officials are most likely wiretapping members of Congress too, so they have screwed the pooch in capitulating on overriding FISA.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:45 pm#
And Bush officials are most likely wiretapping members of Congress too, so they have screwed the pooch in capitulating on overriding FISA.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
Agreed. It was like watching 41 Dems meekly line up and hand their gonads in little brown paper bags to the Admin. Something that hasn't been commented on too much here about that vote - does it signal that the GOOPers have regained control of Congress? Will the same 41 continue to rubberstamp Bush's personal faves?
August 10th, 2007 at 12:48 pm"I believe none other than the supreme court narrowed the ability of people to argue that a law was unconstitutional if they were unable to prove they were impacted by it (which would seem to be the case here)."
thats just it - werent these guys on that classified list of names accidentally released to the public and disseminated to several attorneys and newspapers?
August 10th, 2007 at 12:48 pmblue dog dems (30 or so of them out of 41) are traitorous republicans in dem clothing - knew it before the election - definitely have proof now.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:49 pmWell, of COURSE it's unconstitutional -- it's rare to see legislation so directly and overtly violate the constitution (fourth amendment, for those of you asking "where?")
The federal judge in San Francisco may agree, but I doubt SCOTUS will. When given a choice to expand the powers of the president or uphold the constitution, they will choose this president every time.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:49 pmESPECIALLY after FISA was amended to allow a wiretap PRIOR to recieving a warrant.
Comment by Not Canadian — August 10, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
Yep. That's what stunned me so badly. Which GOOPers had the gall to things, "Pray we don't get hit before this bill gets passed. It'll be your fault"? Talk about fear-mongering.
And 41 soprano Dems caved...
August 10th, 2007 at 12:50 pmAnd Bush officials are most likely wiretapping members of Congress too, so they have screwed the pooch in capitulating on overriding FISA.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
And reading our thoughts through the satellites. Quick, get your tin foil.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:50 pm#13
the revamped bill FISA was duly passed by congress and signed into law by the president. as under the 1978/1985 version of the bill, intercepted communications can only be used for intelligence gather purposes. before surveillance can be used for a law enforcement purpose (as in a criminal prosecution), the gov't must adhere to the typical 4th amendment warrant requirement.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:50 pmRepublic the 41 might believe that if they help Bush, then he will have them exempted from being spied upon, but Dubya never keeps promises so he is digging up dirt on them too.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:51 pmthats just it - werent these guys on that classifiedlist of names accidentally released to the public and disseminated to several attorneys and newspapers?
Comment by bobh — August 10, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
Oh, really now? That complicates things. Sadly, I still suspect the same outcome.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:51 pm#
Republic the 41 might believe that if they help Bush, then he will have them exempted from being spied upon, but Dubya never keeps promises so he is digging up dirt on them too.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
No honor amongst thieves.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:52 pmI can just see Tony Scalia rubbing his grubby little mitts together waiting for this case to come before the Supremes so he can demonstrate his "I'm not an activist judge" stance and affirm that the illegal wiretaps are constitutional because the framers didn't anticipate the war of terrorism when the constitution was written. Just watch. It will be something along those lines.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:53 pmbefore surveillance can be used for a law enforcement purpose (as in a criminal prosecution), the gov’t must adhere to the typical 4th amendment warrant requirement.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
And your point being? They still could proceed for 2 weeks before getting the warrant. The point of FISA was to prevent the kinds of abuses the Nixon WH engaged in. Now it appears that firewall is gone. How is this better?
(I could care less if it was "duly passed by Congress". I still don't have to agree that it was the right thing to do.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:55 pmAnd the 41 blue dog dems are most likely working with Bush to wiretap the loyal dem members of Congress too.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:56 pmBush knows that once he has breached the FISA wall, then he can completely undermine it and spy on everybody inside America. The eavesdroppers can claim they are not doing it, but there is no oversight now to prove one way or the other.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:58 pmBush knows that once he has breached the FISA wall, then he can completely undermine it and spy on everybody inside America.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Wow, he’ll have to keep good notes to remember what all 300 million of us are up to.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:59 pmThis was under the old law. Therefore it is not relevant to their current case(would also only apply to the one lawyer and client(s) if only those affected).
August 10th, 2007 at 1:01 pmWow, he’ll have to keep good notes to remember what all 300 million of us are up to.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
Capturing and storing huge amounts of data is actually fairly easy to do w/ current technology. It's not so much that EVERYTHING is being recorded, it's the sense of paranoia that creeps into your life. It's a very corrosive force. It's subtle, it's gradual, and it can become very destructive.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:03 pmJust so you know most credit card company calls, and solicitations from even insurance companies are routed through India, so those calls are automatically wiretapped. Even Americans calling other Americans can have the call routed through Canadian switchboards and wiretapped. The genie is out of the box now, so Americans are spied upon like the KGB did to Russians.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:04 pm#
And the 41 blue dog dems are most likely working with Bush to wiretap the loyal dem members of Congress too.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
This is silly. You're not making any point that makes sense. You think you're being flip and it's not working.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:04 pmThe genie is out of the box now, so Americans are spied upon like the KGB did to Russians.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Yep!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:04 pmr > the calls are data-mined for key words. If in a conversation it triggers the program, then the call is transferred and recorded. Does not mean a live person is listening to every word you say.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:06 pm#27
you're absolutely right, you don't have to agree it is the right thing to do. but, to paraphrase the jackson concurrence in the steel seizure case, when the president acts pursuant an act of congress, he "personif[ies] the federal sovereignty."
for FISA to be unconstitutional now, you must be able to say that the federal government lacks any authority to conduct electronic surveillance of overseas suspected terrorists.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:07 pmThe democrats are cowards!
plainnews.blogspot.com
August 10th, 2007 at 1:07 pmThe democrats are too coward to stand up for our rights.
http://www.plainnews.blogspot.com
August 10th, 2007 at 1:08 pmAnd Bush officials are most likely wiretapping members of Congress too, so they have screwed the pooch in capitulating on overriding FISA.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
And the 41 blue dog dems are most likely working with Bush to wiretap the loyal dem members of Congress too.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
This is silly. You’re not making any point that makes sense. You think you’re being flip and it’s not working.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Is Jay Randal being silly and not making any point that makes sense and being flip too?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:09 pmView my blog and comment on my post about coward democrats.
http://www.plainnews.blogspot.com
August 10th, 2007 at 1:09 pmI can't wait until we start allowing testimony from young girls in the Salem Mass. area in which they are taken into court and begin to writhe on the floor, foam at the mouth and accuse the defendent of being a terrorist.
The Bush Kangaroo Judge will then have proof and can send the guilty to the gallows or Guantanimo where they can be sodomized by fine Americans fighting against the evil terrorists who would ruin our centuries old way of life as embodied in our Constitution.
-GSD
August 10th, 2007 at 1:09 pmDon't the 41 Dems know that now THEIR privacy has been breached and that Rove will spy on them to win elections? National security my a$$--it's elections. Everything Hitler did, he did legally to become the fuhrer.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:10 pm#36 & jay randal in general
what key words trigger the recording? other than your "destructive, creeping sense of paranoia", what HARD evidence do you have that my phone conversations with my girlfriend about dinner plans are being listened in on and/or recorded for later review?
do you know anyone who has been whisked away in the dark of the night by federal agents to be questioned in a white walled room, illuminated by a bare hanging lightbulb about their whereabouts on july 22nd?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:11 pmOnce you have triggered the program, then the system takes an increased interest in your calls.
I send lots of faxes to Congress, so the program can divert the fax to a recording machine and print it out for them. Bush officials can claim they did no such thing, but no way to disprove it either.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:12 pmThe Republic of Stupidity: You hit the nail on the head. Seven years of this insanity, and I'm done being polite. Besides: all the commentary I watch and read uses the same slang-ridden vocabulary I do. My intent isn't to offend rational people like yourself; it is to offend the irrational Christofascist, hypocritical Republicans I find far more offensive than vocabulary. There isn't enough slang in a slang dictionary to describe how I feel about them. But I'll try.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:13 pmworth repeating:
The president violated his oath of office to faithfully execute the laws of this nation and instead secretly broke the law for years to spy on Americans. He has taken an axe to the Constitution.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:14 pm- trolls are like the Nazi guards who told the prisoners, 'it's only a shower" you paranoids.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:14 pmThe rumors about the Carnivore program have been around since almost the inception of the internet. An NSA mainframe storing all the data, and running keyword searches.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:14 pmAnd Bush officials are most likely wiretapping members of Congress too, so they have screwed the pooch in capitulating on overriding FISA.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
And the 41 blue dog dems are most likely working with Bush to wiretap the loyal dem members of Congress too.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
This is silly. You’re not making any point that makes sense. You think you’re being flip and it’s not working.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Is Jay Randal being silly and not making any point that makes sense and being flip too?
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 1:09 pm
---
You know what they say.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You hit the nail on the head, r.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:16 pmcrocchoda > nobody knows if anybody has been whisked away or not. As for data-mining: the program picks up on terrorist related words, or can be programmed to pick out hatred of Bush in conversations. Your talking with your girlfriend most likely triggers nothing.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:16 pm"Democrats aided in passing it, so what’s the fuss all about?"
= "You must goosestep in perfect unison mit your party leaders, same as us, zerefore you must love zis bill."
Sorry, dude, that's only how it works on your side.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:17 pmwhat HARD evidence do you have that my phone conversations with my girlfriend about dinner plans are being listened in on and/or recorded for later review?
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
It was my father's job to translate these very types of calls while pretending to be a chef in Germany during the cold war years. It was illegal/immoral then and remains so today and this new situation way exceeds what was going on then.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:17 pmAnd the 41 blue dog dems are most likely working with Bush to wiretap the loyal dem members of Congress too.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
This is silly. You’re not making any point that makes sense. You think you’re being flip and it’s not working.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Waiting for TRoS to admonish kaye2 for being silly, not making any point that makes sense, and being flip.
---
Don’t the 41 Dems know that now THEIR privacy has been breached and that Rove will spy on them to win elections?
Comment by kaye2 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
Still waiting.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:17 pmAn NSA mainframe storing all the data, and running keyword searches.
Comment by Krazny — August 10, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
Remember when Poindexter decided to "quit" and take all his toys home?
NOT!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:17 pmThe genie is out of the box now, so Americans are spied upon like the KGB did to Russians.
Comment by Jay Randal — August 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Yep!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Exactly so. i worked with a young russian musician who came to the states several years ago. he told me that everybody, at that time, had neck problems from looking over their shoulders all the time. it was a joke, but borne of the truth. That's whats going on here, and the America-haters like r- and crocchoda are truly undermining the Constitution with support of these criminals.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:18 pmAnd I agree with an earlier comment: the Democrats are cowards. But don't forget that the Republicans are authoritarians. The legislative branch is no longer valid. Like the Geneva Conventions, it is a "quant" and antiquated institution. After the SCOTUS (s)elected a president in 2000, the shadow government discovered a new path to coup d'etat: pack the court with RNC loyalists and voila: permanent Republican governance. Wait until 2008; if you think 2000 and 2004 were bad, things are about to get much uglier.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:19 pmAn NSA mainframe storing all the data, and running keyword searches.
Comment by Krazny — August 10, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
Remember when Poindexter decided to “quit†and take all his toys home?
NOT!!!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
---
TRoS,
Why haven't you admonished kaye2 for being silly, not making any point that makes sense, and being flip?
Come on Tros, what's good for the gander...
I'm waiting too.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:19 pmDon’t the 41 Dems know that now THEIR privacy has been breached and that Rove will spy on them to win elections?
Comment by kaye2 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
Still waiting.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
They've already been spied on, and are being blackmailoed into supporting this most unAmerican of bills. The question is, how can you countenance treason withut that blackmail? Perhaps you are a traitor?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:20 pmThe Supreme Court will say(in a 5-4 RATS majority): "you can't prove your clients were harmed by this law--and you are not allowed discovery in this matter as to wheter they were, in fact, harmed by this because it is a state secret. Case dismissed!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:20 pmwhat key words trigger the recording? other than your “destructive, creeping sense of paranoiaâ€, what HARD evidence do you have that my phone conversations with my girlfriend about dinner plans are being listened in on and/or recorded for later review?
= "Never in the history of the world have police powers been abused! Therefore I demand proof!"
Versus: "Every police power ever granted has been abused. That's why we demand judicial oversight."
August 10th, 2007 at 1:20 pmStill waiting.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
More than a few of the posts here are silly. If you want to honestly rebutt kaye2's post go ahead. It's called "free speech". Am I supposed to do what you tell me? Ain't happenin'.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:21 pmthe America-haters like r- and crocchoda are truly undermining the Constitution with support of these criminals.
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
It’s not my fault. You’re the America-hater that voted the 41 dems into office. I can assure you I didn’t vote for a one of them.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:21 pmwhat key words trigger the recording? other than your “destructive, creeping sense of paranoiaâ€, what HARD evidence do you have that my phone conversations with my girlfriend about dinner plans are being listened in on and/or recorded for later review?
another repuke tool entirely missing the point of secret police state techniques. these fools would have been right behind Hitler. the hard right never learns.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:22 pm#52
i'm just curious if YOU know anyone personally who has been targeted.
a couple questions:
1) if the data-mining program ONLY picked up terrorism related words or phrases (and it was verifiable that those were the ONLY trigger words), would you be all right with the program?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:22 pm2) why would the data-mining computer were programmed to pick 'hatred of bush' from private telephone conversations? wouldnt it be easier to browse public forums to find those with a 'hatred of bush' and then target them for whatever government retribution you think is coming their way?
2) finally, if the data-mining computer could pick up 'hatred of bush' from conversations, what happens in january 2009 when the next president takes office?
They’ve already been spied on, and are being blackmailoed into supporting this most unAmerican of bills. The question is, how can you countenance treason withut that blackmail? Perhaps you are a traitor?
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
Typical troll tactic. Just because we say it, then it must be true.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:22 pmComment by bilbobaggins — August 8, 2007 @ 10:04 am
It's pretty clear that under the wide umbrella of 'The war on Terra' includes the war on American citizen dissent
August 10th, 2007 at 1:22 pmt’s not my fault. You’re the America-hater that voted the 41 dems into office. I can assure you I didn’t vote for a one of them.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
No, you voted for the reliably fascistic republican criminals instead. Good job, traitor. North Korea welcomes you and your kind.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:23 pmThey’ve already been spied on, and are being blackmailoed into supporting this most unAmerican of bills. The question is, how can you countenance treason withut that blackmail? Perhaps you are a traitor?
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
Substantiation please!!! Or it’s just a pointless rumor.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:24 pmComment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 8, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Data-mining stuff is stored for later use. It can be retrieved at any time.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:24 pmRonJazz...I hate to think that so many congresspeople have such skeletons in their closets that they can be blackmailed in this fashion. It is far easier to believe they are craven spineless politcos.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:25 pmCome on Tros, what’s good for the gander…
I’m waiting too.
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
If you're good at parsing out comments, you can do it. I don't agree w/ alot of what gets said here. If you've been reading these threads the last few days, you know I've been coming down on a lot of lefties here, trying to get them to clean it up and be more articluate in their comments.
If you have a problem w/ someone's comment, I'd do what I've been trying to get everyone to do, ARTICLUATE an honest, meaningful response. There's very little namecalling going on the is morning, and it makes these threads so much easier to read, and more meaningful.
ronjazz??? I'm proud of you this morning. Yer really workin' it and it shows!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:25 pmA law or exective order cannot usurp the fourth amendment. Amendments need to be changed, created, or repealed by way of the process contained in the Constitution. But see, Bush thinks he can do it - that is what is so scary about all of this. We DO get the government we deserve.
Another simple answer to a simple question.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:27 pmCome on Tros, what’s good for the gander…
I’m waiting too.
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
If you’re good at parsing out comments, you can do it. I don’t agree w/ alot of what gets said here. If you’ve been reading these threads the last few days, you know I’ve been coming down on a lot of lefties here, trying to get them to clean it up and be more articluate in their comments.
If you have a problem w/ someone’s comment, I’d do what I’ve been trying to get everyone to do, ARTICLUATE an honest, meaningful response. There’s very little namecalling going on the is morning, and it makes these threads so much easier to read, and more meaningful.
ronjazz??? I’m proud of you this morning. Yer really workin’ it and it shows!!!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
Oh, really now? That complicates things. Sadly, I still suspect the same outcome.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:27 pmI remember back when FISA itself seemed almost imperial, dictatorish, un-American, and even felt a little corrupt. (how many warrants did they grant versus warrants they refused? look it up... it may surprise you) Now we're pining for the days when FISA was the law of land...
Dude, where's my country?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:27 pmThey’ve already been spied on, and are being blackmailoed into supporting this most unAmerican of bills. The question is, how can you countenance treason withut that blackmail? Perhaps you are a traitor?
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
Comments like this need substantiation, or they are meaningless.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 8, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
August 10th, 2007 at 1:28 pmSubstantiation please!!! Or it’s just a pointless rumor.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 8, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
Oooo... did you save that off, or did you go back and find it from a prior thread? This is gittin' interesting.
And yes, ronjazz' comment fits that description.
(Sorry, ron, but he's right)
Ya gotta look out, r. Ya want to hold people to a certain standard of truthyness, it's okay, but you gotta abide by the same rules, or this all goes back into the toilet pronto!
BTW. I've seen p here this morning. Huh... where's the rest of the alphabet hding out?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:28 pm"i’m just curious if YOU know anyone personally who has been targeted."
Irrelevant in a state run in secret. dick cheney uses secrecy as his main weapon against Americans.
a couple questions:
1) if the data-mining program ONLY picked up terrorism related words or phrases (and it was verifiable that those were the ONLY trigger words), would you be all right with the program?
Of course not. Governments are not to be trusted. They are to overseen by courts and the citizenry. What country are you from that you don't know about the Constitution?
2) why would the data-mining computer were programmed to pick ‘hatred of bush’ from private telephone conversations? wouldnt it be easier to browse public forums to find those with a ‘hatred of bush’ and then target them for whatever government retribution you think is coming their way?
If you don't think that isn't being done right now, you're a bigger fool than most republicans. Pretty low bar you've set for freedom.
2) finally, if the data-mining computer could pick up ‘hatred of bush’ from conversations, what happens in january 2009 when the next president takes office?
One of two things: He or she gets rid of it, or he or she uses it to jail the traitors that brought it about. it's a win/win for freedom loving Americans, which right now doesn't appear to include Republicans.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
August 10th, 2007 at 1:29 pm#54
if that's true, what's truly immoral is the waste of time and money listening to my, or your, conversations.
#62
i dont think it's a polar choice. have police powers been abused? certainly. are they ALWAYS abused? certainly not.
#65
secret police state technique? it's in a congressional bill. the program is hardly a secret.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:29 pm#
I remember back when FISA itself seemed almost imperial, dictatorish, un-American, and even felt a little corrupt. (how many warrants did they grant versus warrants they refused? look it up… it may surprise you) Now we’re pining for the days when FISA was the law of land…
Dude, where’s my country?
Comment by Parrotlover77 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
uh... yeah... They refused next to no warrants, didn't they?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:30 pmBTW. I’ve seen p here this morning. Huh… where’s the rest of the alphabet hding out?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
I've heard complaints of name stealing, but not letter stealing.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:31 pmronjazz--good comments
August 10th, 2007 at 1:31 pmcrocchoda > the data-mining is a computer program, so can be reset to pick out any words the programmers desire. They can set it up to data mine for sex stuff too if they desired that information. When and if Bush leaves in 2009, then the program can be setup for the next president.
To answer your question one: I do not believe in blanket spying on the entire population. Real terrorists do not jabber away on phones anyways.
Question two: far easier for them to data-mine, then to have agents sitting on blogs 24/7.
Question three: It gets reprogrammed for the new president.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:32 pmWait until 2008; if you think 2000 and 2004 were bad, things are about to get much uglier.
Comment by J Lewd — August 10, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
Damn, that's articulate, J Lewd. Nice post.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:32 pmuh… yeah… They refused next to no warrants, didn’t they?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:30 pm
In 2005 I think it was over 2000 requests, 1 rejected.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:33 pmMy name has always been p
- p
August 10th, 2007 at 1:34 pm#87
No []roblem.
I don't want to be accused of stealing.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:35 pmlooks like I struck some nerves as I parodied the factless trolls with my statement about blackmail. My only response is that I don't know it isn't true, and since the Bushies have destroyed all trust and confidence in their competence and intentions, I feel that it's as good an explanation as any. To use the wingnuts' usual response, prove it isn't so. I've made my points about a secrecy-heavy government, which doesn't belong in America, and nobody that understands American history or the Constitution can defend secret energy meetings, secret indictments of american citizens, secret renditions for torture, or anything like those examples. the practice is unAmerican and fascistic in the extreme.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:35 pmOh, really now? That complicates things. Sadly, I still suspect the same outcome.
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
Why? Do you want it to go back into the toilet? these guys are trying really hard this morning and they deserve acknowledgement.
I honestly acknowledged r's comment. I notice he hasn't come back and replied. "What's good for the goose..."
ronjazz??? J Lewd??? Yer doin' great!!! Keep it up!!! :-D!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:36 pm#79 (first off, wow! great stuff!)
Irrelevant in a state run in secret. dick cheney uses secrecy as his main weapon against Americans.
what does dick cheney and secrecy have anything to do with whether or not anyone has actually fallen victim to the federal secret police jay randal pretends are roaming the streets, sweeping up dissidents.
Of course not. Governments are not to be trusted. They are to overseen by courts and the citizenry. What country are you from that you don’t know about the Constitution?
gov'ts are to be treated with suspicion. quick little conlaw quiz for you: what constitutional issue is raised, in your eyes, by FISA?
If you don’t think that isn’t being done right now, you’re a bigger fool than most republicans.
why do you think they are combing private phone calls looking for bush haters? you dont need to go that effort to find them - there's a parking garage full of cars anti-bush bumper stickers right outside.
the real question is: once youre identified as anti-bush, what happens to you? elaborate please! pretty please.
he or she uses it to jail the traitors that brought it about.
what are they going to jail for? what do you charge them with? please please please elaborate.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:36 pmI don't have a p[]oblem. Keep up the good wo[]k, [].
August 10th, 2007 at 1:36 pmsecret police state technique? it’s in a congressional bill. the program is hardly a secret.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Irrelevant answer. codifying a police state doesn't make it right, and certainly makes it unAmerican and unConstitutional.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:37 pmlooks like I struck some nerves as I parodied the factless trolls...
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
August 10th, 2007 at 1:38 pm---
So all of the comments here are parody?
I notice he hasn’t come back and replied.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
I acknowledge your comment (thanks even), but I didn't realize it needed a reply.
Have a good day.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:40 pm#93
what makes a "police state" is subject to interpretation. maybe i think requiring me to have a driver's license is a POLICE STATE TECHNIQUE.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:41 pmcrocchoda > I never claimed that Bush is secretly arresting his opponents yet. He is just spying on them. So do not put words in my posts that do not exist.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:41 pmlooks like I struck some nerves as I parodied the factless trolls…
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
—
So all of the comments here are parody?
A few weeks ago they were all SATIRE, I guess they've progressed to parody.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:43 pm#97
when do you think he's going to get around to arresting the more than 150 million that are his political opponents? he doesnt have much time left in office, ya know.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:43 pmwhat are they going to jail for? what do you charge them with? please please please elaborate.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
The phrase, "slippery slope" comes to mind.
Recently, there was an incident reported in the press about a man who had a chance to speak w/ Cheney for an instant. The man took this opportunity to express his dismay at the current state of affairs w/in the Admin. No swearing, no threats, no physical contact, just an honest expression of dismay.
The man was charged w/ assault. Hello?
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5039230,00.html
August 10th, 2007 at 1:43 pmThese terrorist lawyers are trying to undermine our intelligence capabilities, as they try to release Al Qaeda from Guantanemo.
Traitors.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:44 pmI have yet to hear one cogent argument from the right about why Bushco shouldn’t get warrants, or play by the rules. It’s about oversight and accountability.
No, you just choose not to believe them. The FISA court is far too small to burden them with warrants for international communication!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:45 pmA few weeks ago they were all SATIRE, I guess they’ve progressed to parody.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
This reply is so broad as to be meaningless. One might even come to the conclusion you're trying to insult ronjazz and hopefully start an argument
August 10th, 2007 at 1:45 pmand will degenerate into name calling. Are you?
I wonder why TP keep swallowing up my perfectly benign, non-insulting, on-topic posts? Weird.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:45 pmI have to go water my yard > huge drought in Georgia and even old trees are dying from lack of water. Bye all and never fall for Bush's lies > PERIOD.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:45 pm#
These terrorist lawyers are trying to undermine our intelligence capabilities, as they try to release Al Qaeda from Guantanemo.
Traitors.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:44 pm
Irrational comment. Gonna have to do better than that.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:46 pmNo, you just choose not to believe them. The FISA court is far too small to burden them with warrants for international communication!
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:45 pm
Substantiation, please?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:47 pm***REMINDER****
pass over the meaningless verbal diarrhea of :
r , p , crotchitch
THANK YOU
August 10th, 2007 at 1:47 pmI wonder why TP keep swallowing up my perfectly benign, non-insulting, on-topic posts? Weird.
Comment by Parrotlover77 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:45 pm
This is so broad as to be meaningless. One might even come to the conclusion you’re trying to insult TRoS and hopefully start an argument
and will degenerate into name calling.
Are you?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:48 pm***REMINDER****
pass over the meaningless verbal diarrhea of :
r , p , crotchitch
THANK YOU
Comment by BUSH=Nazi — August 10, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
Irrational comment. Gonna have to do better than that.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:48 pmwhen do you think he’s going to get around to arresting the more than 150 million that are his political opponents? he doesnt have much time left in office, ya know.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
Do one said he intended to arrest 150 million. You don't have to arrest everyone to intimidate people.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:49 pmI can just see Tony Scalia rubbing his grubby little mitts together waiting for this case to come before the Supremes so he can demonstrate his “I’m not an activist judge†stance and affirm that the illegal wiretaps are constitutional because the framers didn’t anticipate the war of terrorism when the constitution was written.
You don't even need to go that far. There is no evidence that the founders intended to bar the Congress from tapping on international commuatin!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:49 pmIrrational comment. Gonna have to do better than that.
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
Hey, you're using my material!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, BTW!!! Gotcha!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:50 pmThere is no evidence that the founders intended to bar the Congress from tapping on international commuatin!
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
That's a silly contention.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:50 pmThank whoever for posting Bush=Nazi + the***reminder***
One more Time? I thank you in advance bwahahahaha
August 10th, 2007 at 1:51 pm#100
you forgot the most important part:
The charge was later reduced to harassment, then dismissed in Eagle County Court a month later.
the complainant sounds like an opportunist to me:
The lawsuit asks for money for attorneys fees and damages that include loss of enjoyment of life.
#108
i may not agree with everything said here, but i'm not a troll. i have yet to say anything merely to get a response or disrupt this thread. thanks.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:51 pmHow about typing in English, m12? Not that your foolishness would make any more sense. Never mind. Now it's clear why you don't understand the Constitution.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:51 pmAre you?
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
Sorry, but that just doesn't work in this context. Try again.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:51 pmi have yet to say anything merely to get a response or disrupt this thread. thanks.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
I don't think you've been particularly ridiculed here.
As faras the charges being reduced, see the phrase "slippery slope" for more information. Where else does this go to? Where will it stop?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:53 pmThis reply is so broad as to be meaningless. One might even come to the conclusion you’re trying to insult ronjazz and hopefully start an argument
and will degenerate into name calling. Are you?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:45 pm
Several unsubstantiated statements were made. When called on it, ronjazz claimed parody and declared victory. Zooey did the same thing a couple weeks ago with SATIRE when said the troops were just BAIT. Whatever works I guess.
And if it were to result in name-calling it would be one sided, I don’t play like that.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:53 pmSorry, but that just doesn’t work in this context. Try again.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
Sure it does.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:54 pmSubstantiation, please?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0533/app8.htm
Counterterrorism backlog has increased substantially from about 4000 to about 8000 hours. And that's with Gonzo dodging the courts with all international wiretaps!
Imagine what increasing the workload would do to the FISA court.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:54 pmi may not agree with everything said here, but i’m not a troll. i have yet to say anything merely to get a response or disrupt this thread. thanks.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
This very post proves that you are, in fact, a rightwing troll with a factless POV. a man gets arrested for speaking to the VP, and he's the opportunist? You won't see a police state until the boot is on your neck.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:54 pmAnd Bush officials are most likely wiretapping members of Congress too, so they have screwed the pooch in capitulating on overriding FISA.
You mean like how Lyndon Johnson wiretapped the Vice President's office in the Senate building?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:55 pm#111
ok then - when do the arrests start? who is going to be arrested?
the real question i want answered is: IF bush et al are in fact listening in and/or recording every conversation, searching and identifying people that dont like him, now that the list MUST include millions and millions of names, what is going to be done with those names?
what is going to happen to me for saying to my friend "i'm sick of bush. this war is a joke. i cant wait for the next election and some new blood"???
August 10th, 2007 at 1:55 pmThis very post proves that you are, in fact, a rightwing troll with a factless POV. a man gets arrested for speaking to the VP, and he’s the opportunist? You won’t see a police state until the boot is on your neck.
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
This very post proves that you are, in fact, a commentor who makes unsubstantiated statements. Irrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 1:56 pmCounterterrorism backlog has increased substantially from about 4000 to about 8000 hours. And that’s with Gonzo dodging the courts with all international wiretaps!
Imagine what increasing the workload would do to the FISA court.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
Completely irrelevant and misleading. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Enlarge the court, rather than shrinking the constitution.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:56 pmAs for data-mining: the program picks up on terrorist related words, or can be programmed to pick out hatred of Bush in conversations.
Why shouldn't it? I know you'd blow your load in glee if it happened like those Canadians, but assassinating the President is probably not a good thing...
August 10th, 2007 at 1:57 pmCompletely irrelevant and misleading. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Enlarge the court, rather than shrinking the constitution.
How can we enlarge the court with Schumer vowing to bar any Bush judicial appointments?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:57 pm#123
the charges were dismissed.
i agree the arrest was bad. but the charges were dismissed. and dumb or not, the arrest wasnt an attempt to silence a critic, to throw him to the gulag.
he's an opportunist b'c he's seeking damages for loss of enjoyment of life.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:58 pmIrrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
Still using my material, I see. Must work, huh?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:59 pmHow can we enlarge the court with Schumer vowing to bar any Bush judicial appointments?
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 1:57 pm
You give up so easily, just like Bush. No wonder we're losing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Perhaps Bush could someday nominate an actual competent person for a judgeship.
nah.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:59 pmIrrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
Still using my material, I see. Must work, huh?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
Irrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:00 pmhe’s an opportunist b’c he’s seeking damages for loss of enjoyment of life.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
I can agree w/ that, and it also sets a scary precendent. Honest expression of frustration w/ an elected official equated initially w/ assault? NOT GOOD!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:00 pmYou give up so easily, just like Bush. No wonder we’re losing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Perhaps Bush could someday nominate an actual competent person for a judgeship.
He has, which is why he has gotten unanimous approval on around 250 judicial nominations. But now Chuckie is blocking in advance.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:02 pmi agree the arrest was bad. but the charges were dismissed. and dumb or not, the arrest wasnt an attempt to silence a critic, to throw him to the gulag.
he’s an opportunist b’c he’s seeking damages for loss of enjoyment of life.
Comment by crocchoda — August 10, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
dead wrong on both counts. you are dead wrong. the arrest was a SUCCESSFUL attempt to silence an opponent, and the man deserves to be compensated for it. it was a false arrest, which is a crime, civil and criminal. Cheney shuld be jailed, and the man arrested should be able to sue him for hsi full fortune. this is America, not the USSR.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:03 pm"The federal judge in San Francisco may agree, but I doubt SCOTUS will. When given a choice to expand the powers of the president or uphold the constitution, they will choose this president every time."
And the thing that is scary about this is that the Bush Administration says they are appointing Supreme Court justices who are "strict constructionists". Doesn't that mean that they are strictly following the constitution? From what I can see they are only "strict constructionist" when it comes to things that fit their right wing agenda.
I really do think it is time to do something (perhaps a constitutional amendment) to somehow restructure the Supreme Court. I certainly don't think they should be appointed for life.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:03 pmRemember that the old FISA law *allowed* the administration to obtain retroactive warrants as they were given 72 hours of free rein (if certified by the admin as needing that time).
72 hours is hardly sufficient in modern times! With disposable cell phones, how are we supposed to know who is calling?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:03 pm"As for data-mining: the program picks up on terrorist related words, or can be programmed to pick out hatred of Bush in conversations."
Oh, I see. It is now against the law to hate Bush. Who knew?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:04 pmI would like to thank TRoS,ronjazz,parrotlover77,Tom,Jay Randal,JLewd,Krazny and the other Progressives for their intelligent comments. good reading
August 10th, 2007 at 2:04 pm#134
i dont know the details of the initial confrontation. if it was as benign as the article makes it out to be, then i agree that the secret service agents on scene overreacted.
if that guy was a little more "aggressive" in his criticism, and i would bet he was, then maybe it's a closer call.
i'm glad charges were dropped, in either case.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:04 pmIrrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
And you would appear to have a sense of humor lurking somewhere around here too!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:05 pmBack to factless lies again. you're really tiresome. if you ca't type the truth, I am forced to ignore you, as I have the poor, sick p. You two can play with yourselves, or each other, whichever is the latest Republican trend. It's hard to keep up with your party's perversions.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:05 pmDoesn’t that mean that they are strictly following the constitution?
Yep, and nowhere in the Constitution does it say that the Congress is barred from wiretapping international communications!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:05 pmWho could have predicted that the Bushits would use this blog posting to pick me up and rendition me to >????
August 10th, 2007 at 2:06 pm"72 hours is hardly sufficient in modern times! With disposable cell phones, how are we supposed to know who is calling?
Comment by m12"
What you said here hardly supports your arguments. How is not having to get a warrant in 72 hours going to help find who made the call on a disposable cell phone? If they are using disposable cell phones, then they are disposing of them instantly after making the call. So how is what Bush has done to FISA going to help find that person who made the call and then threw away the phone?
Your arguments are so weak they are laughable.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:06 pm"Yep, and nowhere in the Constitution does it say that the Congress is barred from wiretapping international communications!
Comment by m12"
First of all, it is not Congress that is wiretapping, it is the Bush administration. And second, it does say in the constitution that our government cannot violate our rights to privacy without a warrant. You know, that pesky fourth amendment of the constitution.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:08 pmHow is not having to get a warrant in 72 hours going to help find who made the call on a disposable cell phone? If they are using disposable cell phones, then they are disposing of them instantly after making the call. So how is what Bush has done to FISA going to help find that person who made the call and then threw away the phone?
It won't, which is why we need to bypass the warrant process entirely and tap the phones beforehand.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:08 pmit's actually very patriotic to hate Bush, which is why they're recording our calls. they hate Americans, because we stand in the way of their sociopathic world domination schemes. Except for the wingnut lunatic fringe.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:08 pmYou know, that pesky fourth amendment of the constitution.
Comment by bilbobaggins — August 10, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
Damn you and your facts, Mr. Baggins...
Why do hobbits and facts hate America so?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:09 pmFirst of all, it is not Congress that is wiretapping, it is the Bush administration. And second, it does say in the constitution that our government cannot violate our rights to privacy without a warrant. You know, that pesky fourth amendment of the constitution.
When did the 4th amendment extend to foreigners and international communication?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:09 pmIt won’t, which is why we need to bypass the warrant process entirely and tap the phones beforehand.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
And tap the phones before hand????? WTF???
THAT is so f-ing nutty it defies belief. How many phones would you tap before hand? 100 million??? 500 million??? Will the whole world be one giant police state?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:11 pmIrrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
And you would appear to have a sense of humor lurking somewhere around here too!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
Irrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
Why do hobbits and you hate America so?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:11 pmWhen did the 4th amendment extend to foreigners and international communication?
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
It doesn't, and I'd bet good money the Feds have been listening to verseas calls for years.
However, this is about calls from w/ in the US going overseas, which means they are evesdropping on Americans, which would fall under the 4th.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:12 pmAnd tap the phones before hand????? WTF???
THAT is so f-ing nutty it defies belief. How many phones would you tap before hand? 100 million??? 500 million??? Will the whole world be one giant police state?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
This very post proves that you are, in fact, a libtroll with a factless POV.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:12 pmAnd tap the phones before hand????? WTF???
THAT is so f-ing nutty it defies belief. How many phones would you tap before hand? 100 million??? 500 million??? Will the whole world be one giant police state?
As many as possible. Why would you do otherwise?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:12 pmIrrational, irrelevant. NEXT!!!
Why do hobbits and you hate America so?
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
I was almost ready to say something about yer sense of humor...
Have you decided to stalk me now?
August 10th, 2007 at 2:13 pmIt doesn’t, and I’d bet good money the Feds have been listening to verseas calls for years.
However, this is about calls from w/ in the US going overseas, which means they are evesdropping on Americans, which would fall under the 4th.
No, they are eavesdropping on the foreigner. Even if the call happens to originate from the United States, the American is merely talking to someone who is being wiretapped.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:14 pmAs many as possible. Why would you do otherwise?
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
As... many... as... possible. So, you do advocate a total police state.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:14 pmTRoS, insults and BS are all you get when you try to treat wingnut trolls as humans. I hope you've learned something. Perhaps you can stop hectoring me when I call them as I see them. Braindead Republican zombies are not going to respect your civilized ways.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:15 pmThis is all 'nothing' while the cage is being built, keeps the subjects calm ...until you hear the door close and the lock click
August 10th, 2007 at 2:17 pmEven if the call happens to originate from the United States, the American is merely talking to someone who is being wiretapped.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
That's so disingenuous...
August 10th, 2007 at 2:18 pmAs… many… as… possible. So, you do advocate a total police state.
No, I advocate countering modern technology with modern technology to ensure the survival of the American people.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:19 pmDownload youtube videos direct to your PC, iPod, PSP, iPhone, Mobile, Mac..etc for free..
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August 10th, 2007 at 2:20 pmEven if the call happens to originate from the United States, the American is merely talking to someone who is being wiretapped.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
That’s so disingenuous…
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
Irrational comment. Gonna have to do better than that.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:20 pmThis is all ‘nothing’ while the cage is being built, keeps the subjects calm …until you hear the door close and the lock click
Comment by Susan K. — August 10, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
------
Ha!!!
You Leftists crack me up!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:21 pm# 165 m12
Nice.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:21 pmm12 has shown us all why Bush has no chance of winning a phony war on a noun. The historic incompetence of the madministration means that all of their data-mining and illegal collecting of information will go unutilized at best, or will be abused at worst. on the one hand, FISA will be overwhelmed, on the other hand, tap every phone. did I say braindead earlier? I take it back, those retarded wingnuts are born without brains. Their families are mightily ashamed of them, keeping them hidden in the basement with a computer to play with, and never bothering to educate them in any way. A waste of carbon.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:21 pmBraindead Republican zombies are not going to respect your civilized ways.
Comment by ronjazz — August 10, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
ronjazz, I've had nothing but good things to say about your posts this morning. I have singled you out several times and praised your comments. They deserved them.
I also apologized on a different thread, BTW.
I know it doesn't do any good to talk to the trolls politely. They're not interested in facts. (Occassionally, they are)
These threads are so much more interesting when posters like you take the time to think thru your comments and make sure you're really clear before you post. Calling someone a "b*ll-l*cking Nazi" may feel good in the moment, but doesn't make any worthwhile point.
Frankly, when we refuse to follow the trolls' leads and charge the red flags, they do look bad to anyone who just comes by to see what's happeing. By standing our ground and refusing to degenerate into obscenities and explitives, we claim the high ground. Remember, 1000s of people pass thru here very day and only a tiny fraction post comments on a regular basis.
IT DOES MATTER!!!! That's why the trolls try and bait us. They desperately want to destroy TP as a forum for honest debate. If we give in, we do become the jabbering loons they want people to think we are. DON'T give the trolls what they want.
When they take my posts and mimic me, it's actually kind of flattering. I must threaten them, no?
Why do yo think Bill O'Reilly keeps singling out bloggers for ridicule? If we didn't matter, he wouldn't do it. By doing that, O'Reilly is validating us, even though he's trying to call us "kooks" and "black-mailers".
If we don't matter, there's no need to threaten and smear us, is there?
Keep up the good work, ronjazz. Yer doin' great this am!!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:28 pm"what makes a “police state†is subject to interpretation. maybe i think requiring me to have a driver’s license is a POLICE STATE TECHNIQUE.
Comment by crocchoda"
Well, if you think that then you are entirely within your rights to not have a driver's license. Unfortunately I am not within my rights, at this point, to not have my government spy on me. There's a huge difference.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:30 pmIrrational comment. Gonna have to do better than that.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 2:20 pm
Wow... tag-team trolls. Cool. Sh*t, I'm on my way to bein' a celebrity!
Woo-Hoo!!
See, ronjazz??? I must be such a threat to this poor little creatures.
DON'T GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT!!! We're bigger than them!!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:32 pmWow… tag-team trolls. Cool. Sh*t, I’m on my way to bein’ a celebrity!
Woo-Hoo!!
See, ronjazz??? I must be such a threat to this poor little creatures.
DON’T GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT!!! We’re bigger than them!!!!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
Irrelevant comment. NEXT!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:34 pm"You don’t even need to go that far. There is no evidence that the founders intended to bar the Congress from tapping on international commuatin!
Comment by m12"
But there is evidence that the founding fathers intended to bar Congress from passing laws that spy on our own citizens. Again, it's that pesky 4th amendment. You keep ignoring the 4th amendment. Perhaps you should take a breather and go read the Constitution. It just might open your eyes. Nah...no gonna happen.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:34 pmWell, if you think that then you are entirely within your rights to not have a driver’s license. Unfortunately I am not within my rights, at this point, to not have my government spy on me. There’s a huge difference.
Comment by bilbobaggins — August 10, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
Wow… tag-team trolls. Cool. Sh*t, I’m on my way to bein’ a celebrity!
Woo-Hoo!!
See, ronjazz??? I must be such a threat to this poor little creatures.
DON’T GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT!!! We’re bigger than them!!!!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
August 10th, 2007 at 2:34 pmGott a go, guys. Yer doin' great here.
You're proving why we're better than the trolls. Keep it up and we'll take back control of TP and keep it!
Remember, if TP didn't matter, we wouldn't be gittin' attacked like this.
And if what I'm pushin' here isn't working, the trolls wouldn't be comin' after me the way they are!!!!
Oh, p & m12??? Feel free to use my materials all ya want!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:35 pmBut there is evidence that the founding fathers intended to bar Congress from passing laws that spy on our own citizens. Again, it’s that pesky 4th amendment. You keep ignoring the 4th amendment. Perhaps you should take a breather and go read the Constitution. It just might open your eyes. Nah…no gonna happen.
Comment by bilbobaggins — August 10, 2007 @ 2:34 pm
bilbobaggins, I’ve had nothing but good things to say about your posts this morning. I have singled you out several times and praised your comments. They deserved them.
I also apologized on a different thread, BTW.
I know it doesn’t do any good to talk to the trolls politely. They’re not interested in facts. (Occassionally, they are)
These threads are so much more interesting when posters like you take the time to think thru your comments and make sure you’re really clear before you post. Calling someone a “b*ll-l*cking Nazi†may feel good in the moment, but doesn’t make any worthwhile point.
Frankly, when we refuse to follow the trolls’ leads and charge the red flags, they do look bad to anyone who just comes by to see what’s happeing. By standing our ground and refusing to degenerate into obscenities and explitives, we claim the high ground. Remember, 1000s of people pass thru here very day and only a tiny fraction post comments on a regular basis.
IT DOES MATTER!!!! That’s why the trolls try and bait us. They desperately want to destroy TP as a forum for honest debate. If we give in, we do become the jabbering loons they want people to think we are. DON’T give the trolls what they want.
When they take my posts and mimic me, it’s actually kind of flattering. I must threaten them, no?
Why do yo think Bill O’Reilly keeps singling out bloggers for ridicule? If we didn’t matter, he wouldn’t do it. By doing that, O’Reilly is validating us, even though he’s trying to call us “kooks†and “black-mailersâ€.
If we don’t matter, there’s no need to threaten and smear us, is there?
Keep up the good work, bilbobaggins. Yer doin’ great this am!!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:35 pmGott a go, guys. Yer doin’ great here.
You’re proving why we’re better than the trolls. Keep it up and we’ll take back control of TP and keep it!
Remember, if TP didn’t matter, we wouldn’t be gittin’ attacked like this.
And if what I’m pushin’ here isn’t working, the trolls wouldn’t be comin’ after me the way they are!!!!
Oh, p & m12??? Feel free to use my materials all ya want!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
Gott a go, guys. Yer doin’ great here.
You’re proving why we’re better than the trolls. Keep it up and we’ll take back control of TP and keep it!
Remember, if TP didn’t matter, we wouldn’t be gittin’ attacked like this.
And if what I’m pushin’ here isn’t working, the trolls wouldn’t be comin’ after me the way they are!!!!
Oh, p & m12??? Feel free to use my materials all ya want!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
---\\
Gott a go, guys. Yer doin’ great here.
You’re proving why we’re better than the trolls. Keep it up and we’ll take back control of TP and keep it!
Remember, if TP didn’t matter, we wouldn’t be gittin’ attacked like this.
And if what I’m pushin’ here isn’t working, the trolls wouldn’t be comin’ after me the way they are!!!!
Oh, dildofaggins & TRoS??? Feel free to use my materials all ya want!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:36 pmKeep up the good work, bilbobaggins. Yer doin’ great this am!!!!
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
Man, does this ever reek of troll desperation!!! :-D!!!!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:37 pm#170:
sure you are. dont use a phone. then they cant record your phone convos.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:44 pmKeep up the good work, bilbobaggins. Yer doin’ great this am!!!!
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
Man, does this ever reek of troll desperation!!! :-D!!!!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
Feel free to use my materials all ya want!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:16 pmBut there is evidence that the founding fathers intended to bar Congress from passing laws that spy on our own citizens. Again, it’s that pesky 4th amendment. You keep ignoring the 4th amendment. Perhaps you should take a breather and go read the Constitution. It just might open your eyes. Nah…no gonna happen.
Nobody is spying on you, bilbo, unless you are posting from Pakistan!
August 10th, 2007 at 3:27 pm59% Say Intercepting Phone Calls from Foreign Suspects Makes USA Safer
Fifty-nine percent (59%) of voters believe that allowing the government to intercept phone calls from terrorist suspects makes America safer. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 26% disagree while 15% are not sure.
Seventy-nine percent (79%) of Republicans believe that allowing the government to intercept such calls makes the nation safer. Forty-eight percent (48%) of Democrats agree along with 53% of those not affiliated voters.
Hmm...
August 10th, 2007 at 3:29 pmFifty-nine percent (59%) of voters believe that allowing the government to intercept phone calls from terrorist suspects makes America safer.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:29 pm
Nice, self-serving wording. "calls from terrorist suspects"... do the "terrorist suspects" identify themselves as such? Do they use special "terrorist hotlines"?
Try running the same poll and phrase the question "allowing the government to intercept phone calls from anybody making a call to anywhere" and see how people vote...
Me'thinks you're too young to have lived thru the Nixon Years...
August 10th, 2007 at 3:35 pmNobody is spying on you, bilbo, unless you are posting from Pakistan!
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
Validation, please.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:36 pmImitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Comment by p — August 10, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
Whoa... is there an echo in here?
August 10th, 2007 at 3:37 pmNobody is spying on you, bilbo, unless you are posting from Pakistan! Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
How do you know that? Are you god?
Must be nice to have a nickname that includes both your age and your IQ?
August 10th, 2007 at 3:39 pmFifty-nine percent (59%) of voters believe that allowing the government to intercept phone calls from terrorist suspects makes America safer. Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:29 pm
If it's a terrorist suspect, then 72 hours to get a warrant is more than sufficient.
You stupid little Nazi...
August 10th, 2007 at 3:40 pmNice, self-serving wording. “calls from terrorist suspectsâ€â€¦ do the “terrorist suspects†identify themselves as such? Do they use special “terrorist hotlinesâ€?
Self-serving? No, that is the wording from the new FISA statute itself, targeted at those who wish to harm our nation.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:40 pmIf it’s a terrorist suspect, then 72 hours to get a warrant is more than sufficient.
Why should we need to overburden the FISA court to get a warrant for foreigners?
August 10th, 2007 at 3:41 pmHow do you know that? Are you god?
The text of the statute is clear, good sir. The wiretapping is directed at those outside the United States.
Presumably, Bilbo is not in that category.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:42 pmSelf-serving? No, that is the wording from the new FISA statute itself, targeted at those who wish to harm our nation.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
Absolutely self-serving, especially if it's in the poll. Makes it sound like the only people being intercepted are "terror suspects", whereas we know this is not true. You need to get sharper at logic, reasoning and rhetoric. Words have meaning.
Why should we need to overburden the FISA court to get a warrant for foreigners?
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
I doubt if we are, for foreigners. No doubt this is a sore spot w/ many foreign govts, BTW.
However, once you start evesdropping on Americans, it's that pesky 4th again. And I'm sorry, but if you try that nonsesne about, we're only evesdropping on the foreign end of the call...
August 10th, 2007 at 3:46 pmThe text of the statute is clear, good sir. The wiretapping is directed at those outside the United States.
Presumably, Bilbo is not in that category.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
If the call begins or ends in the US, that means Americans are being monitored. Good god, this is so basic. Argue something that makes sense.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:47 pmHowever, once you start evesdropping on Americans, it’s that pesky 4th again. And I’m sorry, but if you try that nonsesne about, we’re only evesdropping on the foreign end of the call…
Nonsense? Your absurd position is extending rights to Bin Laden himself, as long as he can pretend his call was at one point routed through United States territory.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:48 pmYou stupid little Nazi…
Comment by MrPIsAntiAmerican — August 10, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
Now, now... that's an ad hominem...
August 10th, 2007 at 3:48 pmWhy should we need to overburden the FISA court to get a warrant for foreigners? Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
Uh, maybe because that's their job?
Besides, that's not what what your survey said. You said terrorist suspects - which is what the FISA court is paid to do. You're not very smart are you?
August 10th, 2007 at 3:48 pmNow, now… that’s an ad hominem…
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — August 10, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
Well he did call for a police state - so that does mean it's also accurate.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:49 pmIf the call begins or ends in the US, that means Americans are being monitored. Good god, this is so basic. Argue something that makes sense.
That's simply not true at all. Those individuals are not the target of the wiretap.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:50 pmNonsense? Your absurd position is extending rights to Bin Laden himself, as long as he can pretend his call was at one point routed through United States territory. Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
He's not an american citizen, and the call wouldn't be originating from the US - so this is an illogical and irrational statement from you as usual.
If brains were dollar bills, you'd be bankrupt.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:50 pmThat’s simply not true at all. Those individuals are not the target of the wiretap. Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
You can't guarantee that.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:51 pmUh, maybe because that’s their job?
No, its their job to give warrants for domestic communication to monitor people like Timothy McVeigh.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:52 pmNo, its their job to give warrants for domestic communication to monitor people like Timothy McVeigh. Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
Not true. Your ignorance of their job, merely condemns your intelligence. It doesn't establish facts.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:53 pmThat’s simply not true at all. Those individuals are not the target of the wiretap. Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
You can’t guarantee that.
Comment by M12IsAntiAmerican — August 10, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
Somebody clearly hasn't read the statute.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:54 pmNo, its their job to give warrants for domestic communication to monitor people like Timothy McVeigh. Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
How stupid is m12? This stupid!
Wow m12, you're as dumb as you are hateful.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:54 pmSomebody clearly hasn’t read the statute.
Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
Yes, and that someone is YOU!
August 10th, 2007 at 3:54 pmHe’s not an american citizen, and the call wouldn’t be originating from the US - so this is an illogical and irrational statement from you as usual.
Stupid's position is that any call entering the US from Al Qaeda needs a warrant...yes, he is indeed trying to shield our enemies from our intelligence officials!
August 10th, 2007 at 3:55 pmI'm also concerned about the "other" domestic spying programs Alberto hinted at to the committee. You know, the ones you don't know about, because they'd have to kill you if you found out about...
August 10th, 2007 at 3:56 pmYeah, those.
Yes, and that someone is YOU!
Comment by M12IsAntiAmerican — August 10, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
Not only have you not read the statute, you haven't read your own post. If you did, you would realize the new bipartisan law is targeted at suspected foreign intelligence agents outside the US.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:56 pmhttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/6/81143/73736
______
The Canary in the Coalmine is available for purchase at patriotictruthteller.net
________
Another Justice Department Leaker Persecuted: Don't Let It Happen Again
by Jesselyn Radack
RE: FBI raid against possible NSA program leaker
If this happened last week, why are we learning about it two days after the unconstitutional FISA law passed the house and the Senate? Did Newsweek sit on this story? Did FBI use yet more unwarranted wiretaps to secure a warrant for this guy's personal effects?
Whatever happened to whistleblower protection? this guy is a perfect candidate for protection under past "whistleblower laws"
__
It takes courage to be a whistleblower. And thank God there are more and more of them. I only wish Congress had the same courage as those lonely federal employees who, for some reason, insist on retaining their codes of ethics no matter which way the wind blows.
The fact that most papers are covering this story on their front pages leads me to believe that somebody is taking notice and finds the whole thing despicable.
Frankly, I'm wondering if this man is the anon from last week who was advising how we can beat them at their game. He/she was definitely an insider with legal expertise. I'm a little worried about Kossacks getting in on that.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:02 pmp
August 10th, 2007 at 4:05 pm#207 Give it up. No one's buying.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:23 pmNot only have you not read the statute, you haven’t read your own post. If you did, you would realize the new bipartisan law is targeted at suspected foreign intelligence agents outside the US. Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
Says the wingnut that hasn't read the statute! You're really stupid.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:23 pmStupid’s position is that any call entering the US from Al Qaeda needs a warrant…yes, he is indeed trying to shield our enemies from our intelligence officials! Comment by m12 — August 10, 2007 @ 3:55 pm
Since you're stupid - you're saying that's your opinion?
August 10th, 2007 at 4:24 pmPoor stupid m12 thinks FISA is for domestic terrorists only!!!
What an idiot!
August 10th, 2007 at 4:25 pm#207 I have some defunct Silverado stock, a vile or 'roids and a bridge in Michigan that needs a little rebuilding. We could form an LP and ,provided you got no probs with that little 4th am stumbling block (never stopped anyone anyway), I got some contractor ties to Iraq.
I think we could form a beautiful partnership. Bring it on $$$
August 10th, 2007 at 4:34 pm"Nobody is spying on you, bilbo, unless you are posting from Pakistan!
Comment by m12"
And you know this how? I have several friends over seas that I talk to a couple of times a month. I have no idea if anyone is spying on me because it's top secret and they don't let you know when they are doing it.
The issue is not whether or not they are spying on me. The issue is that they are spying on any Americans. The issue is the shredding of our Constitution.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:39 pmAnd m12, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of.
With Gonzo as the designated decider. Be afraid.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:47 pm"Even if the call happens to originate from the United States, the American is merely talking to someone who is being wiretapped.
Comment by m12 "
Are you saying that they will only be listening to the the person outside of the United States and not know who the person is inside the United States? If you think that, you are seriously stupid.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:47 pmWow, he’ll have to keep good notes to remember what all 300 million of us are up to.
Comment by r — August 10, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
--------
Either you're an idiot by choice, or one by accident.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:49 pmm12 - What if I'm negotiating a multi-million contract with a foreign country that competes with a bid from Halliburton. Yeah, I'll sleep well knowing that my client isn't somehow deemed a "terrorist" and call tapped and client screwed.
Cheney/Gonzo wouldn't do that. It just wouldn't be right.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:51 pm"If brains were dollar bills, you’d be bankrupt.
Comment by M12IsAntiAmerican"
Bravo, that's a good one!
August 10th, 2007 at 4:52 pmI give up on this thread. It's like being in the middle of an echo chamber on a funny farm.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:53 pmAmerica's Constitution defended by the only people who have standing: Prisoners of war.
What a mess this Congress is.
August 10th, 2007 at 5:22 pmDecember 15, 1791
August 10th, 2007 at 9:46 pmGreat comment!
August 10th, 2007 at 9:55 pmAre you saying that they will only be listening to the the person outside of the United States and not know who the person is inside the United States? If you think that, you are seriously stupid.
No, but if the person's voice happens to appear on the wiretap, it is mere coincidence! It's not your person, house, paper, or effect, when its on somebody else's phone!
August 12th, 2007 at 9:06 am