Hanson: Iran is a ‘paper tiger’ that must be bombed.
By on Aug 14th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Hanson: Iran is a ‘paper tiger’ that must be bombed.
On the Hugh Hewitt show this week, prominent neoconservative Victor Davis Hanson called for an end to diplomacy with Iran, advocating military strikes against the “paper tiger”:
HH: Ought we to be talking to Iran right now, Victor Davis Hanson?
VDH: Yeah, I think that’s way, way overdue. We really need to start doing some things beyond talking, and if that is going into Iranian airspace, or buzzing Iranians, or even starting to forget where the border is and taking out some of these training camps, we need to do that and send a message, because they’re a paper tiger. They really are.
A “paper tiger” is something that seems as threatening as a tiger, but is really harmless.
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Someone commit this man.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:08 pmA Freudian slip or a sign that VDH is an idiot? Think Progress reports, you decide.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:09 pmAnd Iraq will be a cakewalk too!
The new American fascists want war, war, war.
-GSD
August 14th, 2007 at 4:09 pmVD Hanson never gets enough of mass murder. What a sick bunch of psychos we have put up with. I wish he would walk under a moving bus.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:10 pmdear lord… another vietnam reference?
everything old is new again…
August 14th, 2007 at 4:10 pm.
maybe i’m confused… just this rush of memory came back
August 14th, 2007 at 4:12 pmwhen i read this…
what is it?
…
Calling all neocons. Just how do you plan to pay for and execute this type of action? We will need a military at least 3 times the size it is now. We will need to equip them, train them and ship them off to fight. Where are the resources for this? Where is the call for our Nation to stand for this? Where are the swelling lines at the recruiters?
Tough talk. Talk is cheap.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:13 pmIf it’s a paper tiger, why would it need to be bombed?
Another insane republican remark.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:14 pmNo doubt Hanson next big claim about Iran will be that they’re an immanent threat to the United States. I’ll never understand how conservatives can live so comfortably with these blatant contradictions.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:14 pmSo… if Iran is a paper tiger that must be bombed, what does that make us if we bomb a paper tiger? Uh huh.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:19 pm60 milliomn fanatics
Armed Forces of almost 4 million fighters
Supersonic jet fighters (F-14s and more)
Radar intercept
Navy
Special Forces
Tanks and APCs
Intelligence Services
and more…
Iran is one hell of a papr tiger
August 14th, 2007 at 4:20 pmDid he really say he wants to put an END to “Diplomacy?” Since when did the Bush regime use diplomacy? They have insulted and abused nation after nation … and those were just our former allies! They have created enemies (which they euphemistically call “bad guys!”) by their ham-handed war-mongering.
Diplomacy? How about STARTING it?
The next thing out of his mouth will be that Bush will have to stop honoring the Contstitution so much!
August 14th, 2007 at 4:22 pmIt all makes perfect sense, if you look at his comments from the neocon worldview. A paper tiger is the perfect target because a victory would look huge to all the gullible non-elites that populate the planet. America would once again straddle the planet with its might!
America will strike a mighty blow!
The fact that Iran poses no threat to the US and that a war in Iran would be an even greater debacle than the Iraq occupation means nothing to sociopaths like Hanson.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:22 pmHow many of their family members are now in the US Military? Zero perhaps? 101’st Flying Keyboardists to the attack again!
August 14th, 2007 at 4:23 pm60 milliomn fanatics
Comment by Rebel In CA — August 14, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
I disagree.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:25 pmThis is another chickenshit, chickenhawk, warmongering, coward who is batshit crazy just like anyone who listens to that crazy sob named Hugh Hewitt. Crazy do nothings who would never serve in the wars they love so much.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:25 pmWanna bet this shitbird was never in the military himself? So damn easy to be an armchair general while others have to do the actual fighting and dieing.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:26 pmI wonder what will happen with a Dem in office. Will we end up at war with Iran or…?
August 14th, 2007 at 4:29 pmGet the democrats in power so they can talk to Iran,
August 14th, 2007 at 4:30 pmchickenhawks should lead from the front
August 14th, 2007 at 4:31 pmTalk did nothing for previous terrorist attacks. All we did was talk and get shelled for it. We need to find one helluva talker.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:32 pmRepublicans are a paper tiger that need to STFU.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:32 pmWonder how many other “paper tigers” there are out there that we should bomb?
August 14th, 2007 at 4:32 pmthere are alot according to most news reports between the afghan and pakistan border. Clinton tried to get a few during his reign.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:36 pmComment by missmolly — August 14, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
Old Noriega is due to be let out soon. Panama could be back on the list for fun.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:37 pmDont forget these camps he is speaking of are the same ones that train insurgents(terrorists) to come into Iraq and kill Iraqis as well as your American troops.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:37 pmTalk did nothing for previous terrorist attacks. All we did was talk and get shelled for it. We need to find one helluva talker.
Comment by lostcosts — August 14, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
The only way we can talk and have it mean something is if we do it from a position of strength. And at the moment, we have none. We don’t have military strength, because we are pretty maxed out with our forces in Iraq (and some in Afghanistan). We don’t have economic strength, because we have mortgaged ourselves pretty much to China to pay for our wars so far. We don’t have prestige or standing in the world — we pretty much squandered that when we invaded Iraq in an unprecedented preemptive strike.
We are in a bad position to talk, and the neocons put us there. We are in an even worse position to attack militarily, because we are out of resources (furthermore, if Iraq teaches us anything, it’s that invasions aren’t always a bright idea).
August 14th, 2007 at 4:38 pmhttp://www.spiegel.de/ international/ world/ 0,1518,499154,00.html
Interesting read for those who do.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:38 pmTalk did nothing for previous terrorist attacks. All we did was talk and get shelled for it. We need to find one helluva talker.
Comment by lostcosts — August 14, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
liar.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:39 pmI remember when the Left hated nuclear weapons…but that was back in the 1980’s when only madmen and psychopaths such Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had them.
Now that it’s Ahmadinejad and his Mullah puppet masters, hey no problem.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:39 pmDont forget these camps he is speaking of are the same ones that train insurgents(terrorists) to come into Iraq and kill Iraqis as well as your American troops.
Comment by lostcosts — August 14, 2007 @ 4:37
prove it, liar
August 14th, 2007 at 4:40 pmwhos the America president and vice president
Dumb and Dumber
August 14th, 2007 at 4:40 pmAlso, “Paper Tiger” was a Nancy Sinatra song. I think it was the flipside of “These Boots are Made for Walking”
August 14th, 2007 at 4:40 pmEven Chomsky knows Iran is backing the Shia faction of this fiasco.
Hanson’s credibility hinges on the Right’s touting him as a “scholar” specializing in military history. There’s a fairly crushing review of one of his books here: Review
Reason is not, by the way, a leftist publication.
Hanson responds in the letters, and then there is a response to the response.
letters
August 14th, 2007 at 4:40 pmNow that it’s Ahmadinejad and his Mullah puppet masters, hey no problem.
Comment by Ringo — August 14, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
you make no sense. again.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:41 pmI remember when the Left hated nuclear weapons…but that was back in the 1980’s when only madmen and psychopaths such Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had them.
Now that it’s Ahmadinejad and his Mullah puppet masters, hey no problem.
Comment by Ringo — August 14, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
I remember when the Right loved selling Nuclear reactors to Iran in the 1970s when they had a brutal ’secular’ dictator. Now that they have a conservative religious democracy they’re against it. Ironic!
August 14th, 2007 at 4:41 pmmissmolly-
True, invasions are not always a bright idea. It should be a last option but what did the rest of the world do to make sure Hussein followed protocol after he invaded a sovereign nation.
The world looks to us. When we act they second guess us. If we do nothing, we are weak or enablers.
No matter what we do we lose in the public eye that is why we should not play politics with this war from either side and come up with a true conclusion.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:42 pmYeah, Vic, what could go wrong? Iran is only twice as populous as Iraq used to be before millions of Iraqis either left the country or were killed during our “liberation.” And the Chinese and Indians have plenty of money to lend us to fight on another war front. Our debt will doubtless zoom but what the hell, if our lenders want their money back too soon we can just rocket over a few nuclear reminders to pick up some extensions. The rest of the world may not like it but what do we care? We’re the US of A and everyone knows we’re the Masters of the Universe.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:42 pmWe should attack with Scissors and hope they dont have Iraq hidden somewhere…
Iraq…hehe…a rock…. hehe
that was so corny.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:42 pmWhen the London Mayor Ken Livingston stands up on Television and says George Bush is not welcome in London he is the biggest threat ever known to mankind
well done Ken ” Spot On “
August 14th, 2007 at 4:44 pmLook back at how we had a border war with Mexico. We sat on the border and fired an occasional shot their way and they did the same from their side. One day, a stray bullet hit a military mule. The call in Congress was “American Blood has been spilt on American Soil!!!”
Sounds like we want the same strategy to get in war in Iraq.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:48 pmI love how wingnuts demonstrate their complete and utter stupidity every single day of the week.
Iran does have a population of 60 million, but who said they were all fanatics? A very very very small percent of that country I would classify as fanatics but to the wingnut base all those brown people are the same and should be treated as such.
This is part of the reason we are in the mess we are today; stupid blanket generalizations made by uninformed idiots who do not have the slightest clue what they are talking about.
However let’s say the US did drop a few bombs on Iran, then that will most certainly make most of those 60 million people firmly against us, that is for certain.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:50 pmlostcosts, your argument about “the rest of the world” ignores that the UN inspectors were nearly finished ascertaining that iraq had no WMD. None. Zero. Bupkis. You are right about one thing: the world looked to us. That is past tense, because now the world looks down upon us. We are the new Nazis, the Good Germans of the 21st Century, who allowed a petty criminal to steal the White House and trash international and domestic law in pursuit of his daddy’s approval. Your arguments weaken America and its standing, since your side has been so absolutely wrong about everything, and has continously lied about and harangued those who were absolutely right, like me. Now you cowards and incompetents have dug a very deep hole, yet you want to keep digging. This is nothing short of suicidal; witness the same thinking vis-a-vis the Soviet Union and Afghanistan. Afghanistan defeated the USSR so completely that they folded up and went out of business. Afghanastan, unfortunately, didn’t “win” anything, but they sure took permanent care of that threat. The USA is next to meet that fate, expecially if the absolutely insane neocon traitors mess with Iran. It will be our demise as a world leader, and may very well lead to our being conquered by China, or, ironically, Russia.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:51 pmcut and run ringo has no say here. What is the fascination with bombing other countries? There is no serious talk of military build up here and that would most definitely be needed if we were to bomb Iran. But the neocons can’t fathom the need for planning. Only tough talk.
We won’t be fooled again. And I won’t sit by while chickenhawks like Cut and Run Ringo and Valiant Aphrodite spout ignorance. I don’t care if their minds aren’t changed, there’s a whole country of people here waking up to the fact that Bush is bankrupting this country and no republican will get us thru this. They have all walked locked step with Bush and deserve the same scorn that has been emerging for our President.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:51 pmHeyKKKarl-
You are right and it was LBJ in office when all that started.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:51 pmSo we need to bomb them because they’re harmless? Sounds like Bush’s logic.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:52 pmA quote from one of his papers:
“The Islamic world and the front line enemies of Israel lost their Middle Eastern nuclear deterrent with the collapse of the Soviet Union; no surprise, then, that we have not seen a multilateral conventional attack on Israel ever since.”
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson042607.html
What do you guys all think? Has Israel not been attacked because of the fall of the Soviet Union?
August 14th, 2007 at 4:53 pmIts Sad that Iran is lead by a bunch of nuts today. The Shah was brutal, but he was an ally against Islamic Extremism. Jimmy Carter should be charged with war crimes for letting Kohmeini take over.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:54 pmSo we need to bomb them because they’re harmless? Sounds like Bush’s logic.
Comment by E_I — August 14, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
It is Bush’s logic. As a cowardly, deserting bully, he will only threaten those he preceives as too weak to fight back. His utter stupidity and stubbornness will not allow him to listen to facts, only opinions agreeing with his. He is like Claudius Ceasar; a psychopath and an idiot. he is a very real and present danger to the safety of our families, country and way of life.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:56 pmRonJazz-the Enabler
Try this site out http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5956
this one too:http://news.netscape.com/story/2006/10/04/terrorist-training-camp-in-iraq-tests-positive-for-biological-weapons/
http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing3/witness_yaphe.htm
August 14th, 2007 at 4:56 pmMichael Weiner,
Using your logic, Ronald Reagan should be charged with war crimes since he traded arms with Iran.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:59 pmComment by Michael Savage, PhD — August 14, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
yeah, Jimmy Carter owned Iran, and could prevent Khomeini from taking over. You are even stupider than you look, which I thought would be impossible. it;s nice that you approve of brutal dictators though. What was the problem with Saddam? he was a brutal ally against Islamic extremism, one of the strongest. Pull your head out of your ass, it’s getting in the way of your brain.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:59 pmMamoud Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel. Wait and see what happens if he gains a nuclear weapon(s), you may rethink your current position.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:00 pmComment by Michael Savage, PhD — August 14, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
Fascinating, the Iranian revolution was all Jimmy Carter’s fault. I never guessed. Nothing at all to do with the 1953 coup by the CIA and the 25 years of a fascist police state supported wholeheartedly by every US government since Eisenhower? And the Shah didn’t cause Iranian extremism by torturing and killing thousands, he was actually fighting against the extremism that he didn’t create? Wow…
Do you use a time machine to gain your historical insights, your grasp of cause-and-effect seem questionable?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:01 pmMamoud Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel.
Comment by Michael Savage, PhD — August 14, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
Prove it.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:02 pmSorry, lostcosts, both of those reports have been solidly debunked. paid informants are not reliable except in the fact that they will tell whatever lies will get them the money. You’re a simpleton if you still believe that crap. all fairy-tales, for fairies.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:02 pmWell Ronjazz-the Enabler-u claim to like Hussein in power. Why not the brutal dictator in Iran?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:02 pmThis guy is just another certifiably insane neocon. What a f*cking idiot!
Things are going so well in Iraq and Afghanistan! Lets start another war! Hey, we don’t even need to send in troops; we’ll use nuclear weapons and finish them off quick! It’s the neocon way!
August 14th, 2007 at 5:02 pm“Mamoud Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel” – Bull crap. And if he tried to do so, Tehran would be a parking lot. It’s called DETERENCE – it’sWORKED – unlike Neocon utopian theory – for sixty+ years.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:03 pmMamoud Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel. Wait and see what happens if he gains a nuclear weapon(s), you may rethink your current position.
Comment by Michael Savage, PhD — August 14, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
you lie. again.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:03 pmBooga Booga Fear Fear!!! How many times a day do you wet your pants, Mr. Weiner?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:04 pmOh yeah? You and what army? lol
August 14th, 2007 at 5:04 pmlostcosts
The rest of the world applied sanctions, formed a coalition with the US and kicked Saddam’s backside straight out of Kuwait.
Then, because the world, including the US, was not prepared to spend the required resources to take and secure Iraq, they maintained sanctions on Iraq.
These sanctions worked. The Iraq threat was contained, the region was kept relatively stable, and it was relatively cheap.
Further, frequent weapons inspections resulted in the destruction of most of Iraq’s WMDs. Those not destroyed, were either so badly degraded as to be worthless anyway, or simply improperly disposed of.
By the time of the US invasion of Iraq, Iraq’s ability to defend itself from foreign agression was so badly compromised that America managed to take it in one month.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:06 pmWell Ronjazz-the Enabler-u claim to like Hussein in power. Why not the brutal dictator in Iran?
Comment by lostcosts — August 14, 2007 @ 5:02 pm
Showing your ignorance is your hobby, isn’t it? Iran was undergoing its own transformation into a democracy, little by little, until the neocons showed up. Saddam Hussein was a Bush-Reagan enabled murderer and tyrant, but he wasn’t killing Americans, and he had long ago quit killing Iraqis, since all his enemies were gone. He was a bulwark against Islamic extremism, running a secular government. The extremists hated him, and were frustrated by him. He was our ALLY, you idiot. And the dictator in iran gained a lot more power when Bushco invaded Iraq. You are, and were, wrong about everything. You peole should pick up something to read besides kiddy porn. man, are you ignorant.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:09 pmMamoud Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel.
Comment by Michael Savage, PhD — August 14, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
Fascinating that if Mr Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel that he doesn’t practice on the 25,000 he has in his won country (even one member of Iran’s parliament)/ If being Jewish was motivation enough for him, he’d start there. But then Mr Savage is lying, isn’t he?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:09 pmOh, and Israel? Israel has been kicking the arses of its neighbours since 1949. Almost every attempt at military agression against Israel has been met with Israel expanding its borders.
Israel can take care of itself.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:09 pmRonjazz
Prove it! You seem to refer to kiddie porn alot. Is it a hobby?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:10 pmYea thats some “WAR CRITIC” that Ohanlon is.
A real Ghandi.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:11 pmlostcosts
Projecting much?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:11 pmProve it! You seem to refer to kiddie porn alot. Is it a hobby?
Comment by lostcosts — August 14, 2007 @ 5:10 pm
For you, a serious pursuit, from the ignorance you show about history and politics. You know that the last study done on American awareness of the news around them showed that FOX viewers were likely to be wrong about world events 80% of the time, right? Right? That’s an average. You are wrong 100% of the time. About everything.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:13 pmFascinating that if Mr Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel that he doesn’t practice on the 25,000 he has in his won country (even one member of Iran’s parliament).
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — August 14, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
He said he wants to see Israel (the State) gone. He never said he wants to kill the Jews.
But people like Savage and most of his audience are always bringing up the mistranslation that they interpret as “Big nasty Iranian president wants to kill all jooooos”.
Idiots they are, and idiots they’ll stay.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:13 pmMamoud Ahmadinejad wants to kill all Jews in Israel. Wait and see what happens if he gains a nuclear weapon(s), you may rethink your current position.
Comment by Michael Savage, PhD — August 14, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
that is a complete misreading of what he said what was reported in the us press was that he wanted to push israel into the sea to the correct translation was that the Israeli occupation will not last meaning that the Israel occupation in the Palestinian land and the creation settlers will not last. If you read the European press you get the accurate translation.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:14 pmOh, and lostcosts, sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg
August 14th, 2007 at 5:15 pmThe same thing that happened in 02 and 03 to get us to invade Iraq, is happening now.
Facist worms like Ohanlon, Pollack, Kristol and others are being put out in the mainstream media so the braindead public will nod and say “uh huh, we have got to kill more arabs”.
Only this time I am betting that people aren’t buying it.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:17 pmHanson’s better off sticking with wars that come with their own endings, like the Peloponnesian War. Not so good figuring out the endings himself. And by that I mean he sucks at it.
I must say, though, not nearly as bad at the historical stuff.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:18 pmPaper Tiger or Greeted as Liberators.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:18 pmI think the the results will be about the same.
I always wanted to ask and get an answer from a dog that chases cars, What will you do if you catch one?
BARTLEBEE
Neocons, have no understanding of history. Otherwise they would not be so hasty to repeat the fall of Athens.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:19 pm“One of Saddam’s first acts was to use the threat of international terrorism against Iraq to rally support to his regime. ” Sounds like Bush learned his tricks from Saddam.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:20 pmIts interesting he used the paper tiger reference.
The paper tiger moniker was used by Clubber Lang when referring to Rocky Balboa in Rocky III. We all know how that turned out. The fact is Iran has a battle hardened military with a quarter of a million boots on the ground ready troops, who could over run Iraq in a matter of days.
They also have a ramped up brown-water navy with new sub chasers and even torpedo boats capable of sinking an Aircraft carrier.
And chances are, any attack on Iran will be responded to with Russian and possibly even Chinese support.
So I have a better idea.
Why don’t we take Ohanlon, Pollack, Kristol and the rest of the “hole in the head gang”, and “render” them to Tehran? Put bags over their heads and toss em out the plane on a static line as we fly over.
Good idea right?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:29 pmIran has the largest population of Jews in the middle east, outside of Israel.
Iran also has a seat reserved a an Iranian Jew in their parliament.
-GSD
August 14th, 2007 at 5:34 pmScott Ritter Disagrees that they are a paper tiger.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0330-31.htm
August 14th, 2007 at 5:35 pmHere’s the guy that you moonbats will allow to aquire nuclear weapons:
“There is no truth on earth but monotheism and following the tenets of Islam and there is no way for salvation of mankind but rule of Islam over mankind”
August 14th, 2007 at 5:45 pmhttp://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0708142013173859.htm
Iran…
August 14th, 2007 at 5:47 pmhttp://www.anti-cair-net.org/IranHangsWoman.jpg
Who cares if they are weaker then us? Only tyrants determine how they treat people based on if they are weaker or not…
August 14th, 2007 at 5:48 pmComment by TerrytheTurtle — August 14, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
Haven’t you heard of Muslim Man’s Burden?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:49 pmIran…
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/IranHangsWoman.jpg
Comment by Ringo
I saw a video a year ago of a girl in her 20s with piggy tails getting the top of her head blown off for speaking out in China… soooo… when are you going to invade China? Oh I see you are only into attacking people weaker than you… ya that sounds like a neocon.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:49 pmThe Iranians probably could not defend themselves against American air attack other than through camouflage and very deep bunkers. Their navy and air force wouldn’t have a chance. However, if the Israeli experience in S Lebanon is any precedent, their ground forces would probably be untouched (remember, Iranians trained Hezbollah). Thus these forces would likely be sent into Iraq to harass US troops. They also have fairly sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles that are within range of the Baghdad airports. Thus there is a potential for Iranian led forces to cut off both the ground and air supply routes to at least some of the major US bases.
They also have a second weapon that has the potential to inflict significant casualties on US forces. These are the Russian supplied anti ship cruise missiles known as sunburn-22 and Yakhounts. These have a range of 200 and 300 km respectively, thus putting any ship in the Persian Gulf within their range. These missiles have not yet been tested in combat situations. But their technical specs would suggest they could sink any US vessel below an air craft carrier that was in the Persian Gulf. (They could also poke holes in the hulls of the air craft carriers and likely ignite fires). It is debatable if the navy’s antimissile defense systems could stop these missiles.
In any case, a US attack on Iran could be very interesting. Short of nuclear weapons, all the US could do is seriously piss off the Iranians without really touching their major weapons. How many US warships are currently in the Persian Gulf? That could be the price we pay for an attack. Not to mention, having one of our bases in Iraq starved into submission.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:50 pmComment by Gerald Gibson — August 14, 2007 @ 5:49 pm
No. It’s because the Chinese are not infected with Muslim Man’s Burden.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:51 pmComment by Luis M — August 14, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
Well, they are RIGHT!!!
Haven’t you seen the Muslims with “Death to Israel” and “Death to America” on signs?
Jeez… you lefties will apologize for Muslims no matter what.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:53 pmHaven’t you heard of Muslim Man’s Burden?
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 5:49 pm
Which is what exactly?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:53 pmIranian girl arrested for indecent hair exposure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zYKlSeIbrw
August 14th, 2007 at 5:53 pmWe have taken NO drastic steps to even see if Iran can be REASONED with…. NONE… just like Iraq.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:54 pmHaven’t you seen the American Dominionists with “Bomb Iran†and “Assassinate Chavez†on TV?
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
There fixed it for you.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:54 pmComment by Ringo
When they start that in America THEN we care… until then it is THERE house… not ours.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:55 pmHaven’t you seen the Muslims with “Death to Israel†and “Death to America†on signs?
Jeez… you lefties will apologize for Muslims no matter what.
Comment by Malicious
And wouldnt YOU carry those signs if Iran came over here and threw bush out of office and put a muslim in charge? Hmmmm?
Try reasoning with them FIRST… if that doesnt work and they do endanger us THEN we think about war… NOT until then.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:56 pmWhen they start that in America THEN we care… until then it is THERE house… not ours.
Comment by Gerald Gibson
—————————————————
It’s already started in Europe.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:57 pmIt’s already started in Europe.
Comment by Ringo
Are you European?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:58 pmIt’s already started in Europe.
Comment by Ringo — August 14, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
That’s a matter for the Europeans and how they choose to run their countries – none of your business really is it?
August 14th, 2007 at 5:59 pmWhich is what exactly?
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — August 14, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
Click on my name to learn more.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:00 pmpaper tiger?
Oops! I mean a titanium death tigers with laser beams attached to their heads!!
August 14th, 2007 at 6:00 pmSooo I suppose NeoCons are all for England invading America to stop this…
We cleaned up our own house… if we have to we will again… as should ANY country that does not accept what their country men are doing.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:03 pmClick on my name to learn more.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
As if you and your name weren’t enough? PUHLEASE!
STFU Loser, and go over to stormfront to play house with the rest of your lunatic fringe loser friends? Ok, sport? The grownups don’t have time for your antics.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:04 pmGerald Gibson and Terry Turtle,
Yeah, you guys are right. Who gives a $hit about the rest of the world.
If the Iranians want to hang teenage girls for premarital sex, why should I care? If there is intifada in the streets of Paris, not my business. Darfur?…None of my business.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:06 pmclicked on it Malicious. Nice dity. All the more reason to ask you. Why isn’t Bush calling for a draft? For increase in taxes to fund the military build up? For rationing?
Why isn’t there a national call?
August 14th, 2007 at 6:07 pmIf the Iranians want to hang teenage girls for premarital sex, why should I care? If there is intifada in the streets of Paris, not my business. Darfur?…None of my business.
Comment by Ringo
HUMANITY HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS…
The bible praises it…
are you going to save the world for all time?
No you are not.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:08 pmYeah, you guys are right. Who gives a $hit about the rest of the world. Comment by Ringo — August 14, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
You sound like a 6 year old – grow up.
Your strawmen should be reserved for the playground, where the other kids your age will appreciate them.
If the Iranians want to hang teenage girls for premarital sex, why should I care? If there is intifada in the streets of Paris, not my business. Darfur?…None of my business. Comment by Ringo — August 14, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
WTF? Republicans care about the rest of the world? BAHAHAHA, sure you do!!! You’re all a bunch of selfish hypocrites, liars and fools!
August 14th, 2007 at 6:08 pmGerald, Ringo saves his Biblical duties to attacking gay people. He doesn’t really care about what it says otherwise…
August 14th, 2007 at 6:09 pmComment by hellinabucket — August 14, 2007 @ 6:07 pm
A draft is unAmerican.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:11 pmClick on my name to learn more.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
So every Muslim is dedicated to beheading, rape, murder, suicide bombing and danced in delight on 9-11? Is that your thesis? You are either a fascist or a moral imbecile if you think that its that simple. Which is it? You are certainly a bigot, please help me with the other aspects of your sociopathology.
If that’s the case, then why is the US bothering to try and occupy Iraq? If that’s the case, why did the Iranian parliament pass a resolution condemning the 9-11 attacks and express sympathy. If that’s the case, why does the US advocate for Turkish entry in the EU? if that’s the case, why are there millions of muslims living as decent Americans and one of them elected to Congress?
You don’t know, because you are a bigot and either a fascist or a moral imbecile or both.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:11 pmComment by HeyKKKarl_ValiantVenusShotFromUranus
Who TF are you? Nobody.
You know nothing… didnt you get that from the last 7 years?
August 14th, 2007 at 6:11 pmLooked at the entire interview on line. Lies and ignorance were rampant. For the Hugh Hewitt show to promulgate insanity or senility, whichever are at play here by VDH, is immoral and world destructive, to say the least.
Bombs do not destroy terrorists: they make them… for pete’s sake.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:12 pmComment by HeyKKKarl_ValiantVenusShotFromUranus
Darn it… I HATE it when I read faster than I think….
sorry..
August 14th, 2007 at 6:13 pmIt’s already started in Europe.
what has – Muslims are really quite nice , I would rather trust a Muslims commom sense than a Christians anyday
BUT never ever sit down with a Muslim and draw a cartoon character of Mohammad while feeding them a Ham sandwhich
not that I would dream of such a thing – But usually they go about their bizo without hurting anybody . I would recommend having a Muslim friend or five after all we all learn from each other
August 14th, 2007 at 6:13 pmExcept this paper tiger has teeth.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:14 pmClosing the straits of hormuz for a couple of weeks, or months, inciting the Shiite militias to unleash a full scale assault on all US forces in Iraq, don’t kid youself, these teeth can bite.
Maybe these guys have paper peni, and have to compensate…
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — August 14, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
Wrong.
Westernized Muslims are cool.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:15 pmClosing the straits of hormuz for a couple of weeks, or months, inciting the Shiite militias to unleash a full scale assault on all US forces in Iraq, don’t kid youself, these teeth can bite.
Maybe these guys have paper peni, and have to compensate…
Comment by RUCerious
This is why we should pump 500 billion into ENDING our weakest link (oil) so that no such thing would harm us.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:15 pmComment by Tobey Tall — August 14, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
You are a dhimmi.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:15 pmIf the Iranians want to hang teenage girls for premarital sex, why should I care? If there is intifada in the streets of Paris, not my business. Darfur?…None of my business.
Comment by Ringo — August 14, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
Little girls in India kidnapped and sold into prostitution. We better invade India! Little girls in Thailand sold into prostitution. We better invade Thailand!
Women in Afghanistan executed because they’ve been raped. We better invade Afghanistan! Oh. Wait. Well, that didn’t work out entirely as planned.
Neocon crocodile tears for oppressed women. Gawd, the irony is palpable.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:16 pmIf Bush gave $500 Billion to the American economy to end our reliance on ME oil 6 years ago WHO would have called him a war criminal? Stupid? Who? He would have given Americans many many jobs and actually DID something to route the dangers of playing these games in the ME…. but Israel would have been pissed… well for everything then…
August 14th, 2007 at 6:18 pmWesternized Muslims are cool.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 6:15 pm
Sorry skippy, that’s not what the hate propaganda you linked to says. It says the Koran tells them to be dedicated to the overthrow of the west to make them slaves, Muslims or dead. Keep your lies straight – you get caught out too easily.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:19 pmour weakest link (oil)
The big problem is that the world buys its Oil from the open markets as where America relide on Saudi freebies for a while ( or cheap), now thats stopped America reluctantly does not want to buy the stuff and would prefer to steal it
August 14th, 2007 at 6:21 pmsee what i mean we all learn from each other – a dhimmi – interesting I never knew that BUt no Im not
August 14th, 2007 at 6:23 pmComment by TerrytheTurtle — August 14, 2007 @ 6:19 pm
Yeah, but in the West most people ignore all of that nonsense.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:23 pmYou are a dhimmi.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 6:15 pm
And you are a dummy. But then again, what republican isn’t?
August 14th, 2007 at 6:23 pmmalicious, what a crock of piss your answer that a draft is unamerican. You stand for nothing. You have less of a spine the cut and run ringo here.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:26 pmHaven’t you seen the Muslims with “Death to Israel†and “Death to America†on signs?
Jeez… you lefties will apologize for Muslims no matter what.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
Yeah, I wonder in which part of the Qu’ran says that they shall kill all of the citizens living in an unknown continent across the ocean. I haven’t seen many Muslims with “Death to Russia” or “Death to China” on their signs. Must be they’re jealous of America with their Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, right?
August 14th, 2007 at 6:26 pmtablogloid; Paper Tiger was not done by Nancy Sinatra(unless she did a cover), but by Sue Thompson in 1964. Wolfman Jack would be soooooo proud of me.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:27 pmMake no mistake about it folks. The Bush propaganda machine is ramping America up to slaughter another million or more people in Iran.
Kristol, Pollack, Ohanlon, Cheney, Fox facist news, ALL pushing war with Iran. War with Iran is what the bloodsuckers want. They think America will forget about prosecuting them for their crimes if we’re too busy killing arabs.
Bloody Bush is going for broke.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:28 pmMalicious = Mr Pee
August 14th, 2007 at 6:29 pmYeah, you guys are right. Who gives a $hit about the rest of the world. Comment by Ringo — August 14, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
So what are you proposing, moron…bombing them to help them? Get a real life…or better yet, go enlist.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:30 pmIf the absolute hell-like disaster in Iraq is what the idiot ringo thinks is “helping them”, then god help them when he’s ready to hurt them.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:32 pmYeah, but in the West most people ignore all of that nonsense.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
But they are muslims, Adolf? They all want to kill you or make you a muslim – that’s what your happy little link sings about. Muslim first and always and they are all the same. Come on, Adolf, you’ll need to start stringing them up before they cut off your head.
First it’s “the muslims are all killers”, then its just “oh no not the Western ones”. Come on Adolf, pull on the brownshirt, your country needs you – don’t need you to have doubts about who is a good muslim and who is not. I mean if we had to consider that it might not be whether or not they are a muslim, but perhaps that they are law-breaking, fanatical killers that we need to watch for.
Wow that’s too complicated, lets go with something everyone can get behind. “All muslims are rapists and killers and want invade your country, convert you to Islam and kill your leaders”. Oh wait Ann Coulter already said that or something like that right? “And right, not the westernized ones, because, well….”
I mean Tim McVeigh he must have been a muslim eh, he was a fanatical killer? He wasn’t a muslim? Well f*** me, Adolf.
ROTFL, this troll is broken, please send another.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:33 pm….train insurgents(terrorists) to kill American troops-comment by lostcosts.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
here malicious ill give you real ammo
Mohammad was a phedophile he married his friends daughter at the age of 9
when mohammad was dying his last words where “take the sword of Islam to the rest of the world”
next
The difference of Christians and Muslims – Mulsims believe Jesus was a Phophet of God and NOT a child of God and that Mohammad was the next prophet after Jesus, which Christians dont believe
as for me I aint religious its all bullshit ( for me anyway – I try to be good person without it )- life is all about thought patterns if you want to pollute your head with that then thats up to you
If shit happens in another country then thats their problem – I dont want to go there on holidays -nothing to do with me – live and let live
when another country cowardly attacks another weaker country FOR absolutely nothing and killd 1 million – then they are bullies – and its time to speak up
August 14th, 2007 at 6:41 pmHey ringo. We want to “help” you and your family. Heres what you need to do.
Disconnect the gas line from the stove. Then light up a cigarette.
Make sure your mom and dad are there as well as any siblings or kids you may have popped out when you do it.
That will really help you, just like you helped the Iraqis.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:42 pmIn fact, when you’re done, your house will be as nice as the ones you’ve created in Iraq.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:42 pmYou’re going for an archaic look. Something from the early implosion era.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:51 pmRoof optional.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:56 pm[...]your house will be as nice as the ones you’ve created in Iraq.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — August 14, 2007 @ 6:42 pm
More ideas for the ever helpful Ringo:
Don’t forget to disconnect water supply and electricity.
And if any of your loved ones should get injured in your little redecoration project, do not -I repeat, do not- take them to the nearest hospital because there won’t be any doctors or medicine.
Maybe then you will actually get a little taste of what American “help” feels like in Iraq.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:06 pm“Calling all neocons. Just how do you plan to pay for and execute this type of action? We will need a military at least 3 times the size it is now. We will need to equip them, train them and ship them off to fight. Where are the resources for this? Where is the call for our Nation to stand for this? Where are the swelling lines at the recruiters?
Tough talk. Talk is cheap.
Comment by hellinabucket — August 14, 2007 @ 4:13 pm”
We take them out from the air. We already have enough equipment and weaponry. If “Jimmah” Carter had taken care of business three decades ago, we wouldn’t have to put up with Iran’s crap now. They are a threat to the middle east, Isreal, and to Europe, and they are working to destabilize Iraq. We should not allow it any longer.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:09 pmbigmouth; NO war was EVER won by air power alone. It requires boots on the ground. How about if we drop you out of a B-1 bomber over Tehran? That alone might scare them.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:16 pm“When the London Mayor Ken Livingston stands up on Television and says George Bush is not welcome in London he is the biggest threat ever known to mankind
well done Ken †Spot On “
Comment by Tobey Tall — August 14, 2007 @ 4:44 pm”
Perhaps Britain is a bigger “paper tiger” than Iran?
The British empire has been in retreat for a couple hundred years now, due primarily to folks like Ken Livingston, and I dare say, Gordon Brown.
Ever hear of Neville Chamberlain? He’s the appeaser who helped allow Adolph Hitler to come to power, and it ended with London being carpet bombed by Germany.
Ever hear of Winston Churchill? Margeret Thatcher?
Britain needs more Winston Churchills and Margeret Thatchers, and less Neville Chamberlains and Ken Livingstons.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:19 pmHow about if we drop you out of a B-1 bomber over Tehran? That alone might scare them.
Comment by Uncle Ho — August 14, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
————–
How about you come up with an actual argument. o. bigfoot obviously meant that we should take them out by air, then clean up the mess on the ground when it is over.
Nice straw-man though.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:24 pm“bigmouth; NO war was EVER won by air power alone. It requires boots on the ground. How about if we drop you out of a B-1 bomber over Tehran? That alone might scare them.
Comment by Uncle Ho — August 14, 2007 @ 7:16 pm”
Incorrect, Ho. Ever hear of Hiroshima? Nagasaki? That shut the Japanese up in a hurry.
We only need boots on the ground if we want to rebuild Iran in our image, as we have attempted to rebuild Iraq. If muslims aren’t ready for Democracy, that’s pretty much their problem.
Talk to Moammar Khadafi about what air power can do when effectively used.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:25 pmIran has a large military.
Their people are among the MOST pro-US in the region.
Intel has already revealed that IF we attack IRAN, the Shiite majority will MASSACRE the US troops and contractors in IRAQ rougly about 340,000 Americans.
I hope the PRIVATE contractors ALL have their heads hanging off bridges.
Live by the sword…
August 14th, 2007 at 7:26 pmMalicious; Does that mean we can count on you & bigfoot to actually enlist and go there in person?
August 14th, 2007 at 7:27 pmWe only need boots on the ground if we want to rebuild Iran in our image, as we have attempted to rebuild Iraq. If muslims aren’t ready for Democracy, that’s pretty much their problem.
Talk to Moammar Khadafi about what air power can do when effectively used.
Comment by o. bigfoot — August 14, 2007 @ 7:25 pm
———–
Sorry for answering you, o. bigfoot. I did not know if you were still here. I agree with you, but I do not want to see Iran become a safe haven for terrorists after it has been bombed. I know the muslims have a problem staying civilized, but they need to be checked if they get out of control. It’s true that it is their problem, but they tend to use the US and Israel as scapegoats.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:30 pmDoes that mean we can count on you & bigfoot to actually enlist and go there in person?
Comment by Uncle Ho — August 14, 2007 @ 7:27 pm
—
I think you misread my post.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:31 pm“Intel has already revealed that IF we attack IRAN, the Shiite majority will MASSACRE the US troops and contractors in IRAQ rougly about 340,000 Americans.
I hope the PRIVATE contractors ALL have their heads hanging off bridges.
Live by the sword…
Comment by Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL TRAITOR — August 14, 2007 @ 7:26 pm”
Yet another anti-American wishing death upon fellow Americans. That should be considered treason, and dealt with as such.
The Americans should get the hell out of there. That would go a long way toward sending a message, wouldn’t it? Perhaps a warning of things to come?
I have Iranian friends who escaped the Ayatollah Khomeini. You should listen to folks who lived it. Iran is no picnic for their own people.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:32 pmYet another anti-American wishing death upon fellow Americans. Comment by o. bigfoot — August 14, 2007 @ 7:32 pm
Don’t be so hard on yourself, you’re only repeated O’Reilly’s wishes that terrorists kill liberals. You’re a mindless sheeple, you can’t help your hate – it’s thrust upon your poor weak mind…
August 14th, 2007 at 7:33 pmNice straw-man though.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
All projection. You wingnuts are built of strawmen.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:33 pmbigmouth; bombing Hiroshima & Nagasaki alone did not make Japan surrender. You ignore other facts- like the fact that Japan had approached the Soviet Union weeks before the bombs to find a way out of the war and 2) the the Soviet Union had declared war on Japan also had a big effect that made Japan surrender. Get ALL the facts.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:34 pmYou’re a mindless sheeple…
Comment by HeyKKKarl_ValiantVenusShotFromUranus — August 14, 2007 @ 7:33 pm
–
Wouldn’t the term be ’sherson,’ you know, as the singular of ’sheeple’?
August 14th, 2007 at 7:35 pmGood- go there for a year or so on the ground, getting shot at. or STFU.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:37 pm“I know the muslims have a problem staying civilized, but they need to be checked if they get out of control. It’s true that it is their problem, but they tend to use the US and Israel as scapegoats.”
We’re civilized? Tomorrow a fired crook is going on a radio show of a fat, stupid, whore. If that doesn’t make you puk your made of strong stuff.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:38 pmMalicious; If I did in fact misread your post, my error and apology.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:39 pm“Sorry for answering you, o. bigfoot. I did not know if you were still here. I agree with you, but I do not want to see Iran become a safe haven for terrorists after it has been bombed. I know the muslims have a problem staying civilized, but they need to be checked if they get out of control. It’s true that it is their problem, but they tend to use the US and Israel as scapegoats.
Comment by Malicious — August 14, 2007 @ 7:30 pm”
No sweat, Malicious. I tend to look at things in black and white. And having lived through the “Carter Malaise”, where “Jimmah” let Iran pee all over him for a year, my patience with Iran is pretty short. I have Iranian friends who had to resort to some pretty outrageious subterfuge to get out of Iran after Khomeini took over. It’s a pretty harrowing story, worthy of a spy movie. They’ve never been back.
My opinion of Muslims is that if they are such a great civilization, they should be keeping each other in check. Their overall silence at the outrageous statements of their mullahs and political leaders leads me to believe what they really need a reality check.
As for you folks who want me to enlist. If they will take a disabled arthritic old guy to fly the plane that drops the bombs, I’m in. I can hike a mountain on a good day, even if I have to pay for it later. On a good day, and with enough meds, I am sure I could get a plane over the Akmadini-whatis’s house.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:42 pmYet another anti-American wishing death upon fellow Americans. That should be considered treason, and dealt with as such.
George W. Bush and his PNAC cabal including TRAITOR Libby have already committed TREASON.
If these Blackwater types go there for MONEY into a WAR OF AGGRESSION, I hope they get their comeuppances. NO SYMAPATHY.
I DO feel sorry for the TROOPS who are LIED TO DAILY by the
AWOL coward-in-chief Bush the WAR CRIMINAL.
I, too, have exile friends from Iran.
They KNOW the Ayatollah and Taliban (Shiite, Sunni, Wahaabi) are BAD.
They ALSO know that Bush and his WAR CRIMINALS are the SAME,
they just wear SUITS.
Bush and his whole PNAC cabal are TRAITORS to the USA.
So are companies like Blackwater.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:43 pm“We’re civilized? Tomorrow a fired crook is going on a radio show of a fat, stupid, whore. If that doesn’t make you puk your made of strong stuff.
Comment by Uriah Heap — August 14, 2007 @ 7:38 pm”
And I will be sure to tune in. I havn’t listened to Rush in awhile. It’s time he earned his multi-million contract.
And yes, we are civilized. Any roadside bombs, beheadings, or child suicide bombers in your neighborhood lately?
August 14th, 2007 at 7:46 pm“I, too, have exile friends from Iran.
They KNOW the Ayatollah and Taliban (Shiite, Sunni, Wahaabi) are BAD.
They ALSO know that Bush and his WAR CRIMINALS are the SAME,
they just wear SUITS.
Bush and his whole PNAC cabal are TRAITORS to the USA.
So are companies like Blackwater.
Comment by Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL TRAITOR — August 14, 2007 @ 7:43 pm”
My Iranian friends have a different opinion. As do I.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:48 pmOutta here for awhile. Getting ready for a trip to the cabin for the next few days. Got to get the supplies together and load up the weaponry…LOL.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:51 pmMy opinion of Muslims is that if they are such a great civilization, they should be keeping each other in check. Their overall silence at the outrageous statements of their mullahs and political leaders leads me to believe what they really need a reality check.
…
Comment by o. bigfoot — August 14, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
—-
Yes but that is why I feel that it is necessary for the US to make sure that, once a message is sent, the same cult-like mentality doesn’t set in. I still think that Western values about right and wrong are needed, especially when it comes to human rights.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:55 pmYes but that is why I feel that it is necessary for the US to make sure that, once a message is sent, the same cult-like mentality doesn’t set in. I still think that Western values about right and wrong are needed, especially when it comes to human rights.
Comment by Malicious
What FOR??
They are an ANCIENT CIVILIZATION, and they have seen HYPOCRISY in the from the likes of George W. Bush and “liberators” for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Maybe not invading them for their OIL would set an example…
August 14th, 2007 at 8:00 pmbigmouth; arthritic old guy? yeah, right. Right up there with Pat Buchanan’s bad knee kept him out of the draft, but not from jogging and Rush Limpdick’s butt cyst kept him out too, but not others I’ve seen in the service with that exact same “problem”. You chickenhawks are ALL mouth, NO action. Put up or shut up you coward!
August 14th, 2007 at 8:02 pmWTF is Victor Davis Hanson?????????????????????????????
August 14th, 2007 at 8:04 pmprominent neo-conservative = BFD
that gives him a right to “decide” to bomb Iran???????????????????
for what reasons??????????????????????
why is the stupid press (and TP) giving the deranged rabblerouser any publicity?????????????????
bomb iran – yeah,good one – and meanwhile,who will be keeping an eye on india when they start testing nuclear weapons soon?
August 14th, 2007 at 8:20 pm“bigmouth; arthritic old guy? yeah, right. Right up there with Pat Buchanan’s bad knee kept him out of the draft, but not from jogging and Rush Limpdick’s butt cyst kept him out too, but not others I’ve seen in the service with that exact same “problemâ€. You chickenhawks are ALL mouth, NO action. Put up or shut up you coward!
Comment by Uncle Ho — August 14, 2007 @ 8:02 pm”
Believe what you want.
I learned long ago that the opinions of an ignoramus don’t concern me. When was the last time you walked up to some soldiers in uniform and thanked them for their service? My guess would be never, because you, like most liberal kooks, despise the military, and what they do.
August 15th, 2007 at 1:34 am“They are an ANCIENT CIVILIZATION, and they have seen HYPOCRISY in the from the likes of George W. Bush and “liberators†for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Maybe not invading them for their OIL would set an example…
Comment by Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL TRAITOR — August 14, 2007 @ 8:00 pm”
Most cannibals are ancient civilizations as well. That doesn’t mean they are good civilizations.
August 15th, 2007 at 1:36 amNeo-cons like to start wars but don’t know how to win them. They end up losing wars like in Iraq. They haven’t given up on their failed dream of spreading democracy by unilateral force. It failed in Iraq and will fail elsewhere.
August 15th, 2007 at 3:21 amo. bigfoot
Ah, so Iwo Jima was never captured and Okinawa never happened, the Japanese were never defeated on the ground in China, and America never attacked Japan’s merchant shipping.
It took a combination of ground, sea and airpower to overpower the Japanese, not just airpower alone, and certainly not just the atomic bomb.
Your ignorance of history is kind of startling, but then, that assumes you are capable of telling the truth.
August 15th, 2007 at 3:45 amPaper tiger. That’s what the press thought of the US during the Iraq Crisis of 1997. When William Cohen was warning us about Saddam’s WMD.
The famous interview with Cohen and Sam Donaldson. The Clinton Administration said Iraq had WMD and we were the paper tigers then. Clinton did nothing other than make us look week.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/abc-cohen-19971116.html
Sam Donaldson: If I may, Mr. Secretary, I was looking over the record, and it surprised me — a lot of things surprise me. But since the end of the Gulf War in 1991, we have delivered firepower against Saddam Hussein eight times. I thought it would be two or three. And after eight times, he hasn’t gotten the message. He shrugs it off. Bombing him, clearly, doesn’t do any good…
William Cohen: We, the United Nations, those in the Security Council, those of our allies who would be in support of this. We have to remember, this is not Saddam against the United States. This is Saddam against the United Nations and the world. That’s what we have to keep remembering and reminding people of — not allow him to turn this into, let’s just kick the U.S. out and everything will be OK. This is really a threat that is global in nature and not confined to the United States…
Sam Donaldson: …At the moment, there seems to be overwhelming support for not allowing Saddam to get away with this…In fact, one Newsweek poll says, that if he shot down one of our U-2s, 82 percent of the public would want to response. But if it drags on, at some point, isn’t the public likely to say, the Clinton administration is a paper tiger?
August 15th, 2007 at 4:25 amYears later, Clinton has done nothing, still claiming that Iraq had WMD. His Iraq policy has been a failure and the US is viewed as a paper tiger, the Iraq Crisis is handed over to Bush.
CLINTON’S NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY FOR A NEW CENTURY – DEC 1999 RELEASED JAN 2000
In December 1999, the United Nations Security Council passed UNSCR 1284, a new omnibus resolution on Iraq. The United States supports Resolution 1284 because it buttresses the containment of Iraq. This resolution reflects the consensus view of the Security Council that Iraq has still not met its obligations to the international community and, in particular, has failed to disband fully its proscribed WMD programs…Saddam’s actions over the past decade make clear that his regime will not comply with its obligations under the UN Security Council resolutions designed to rid Iraq of WMD and their delivery systems. Because of that and because the Iraqi people will never be free under the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, we actively support those who seek to bring a new democratic government to power in Baghdad. We recognize that this may be a slow and difficult process, but we believe it is the only solution to the problem of Saddam’s regime.
August 15th, 2007 at 4:37 amsteed
Clinton, as history has shown, was wrong. Iraq did not have WMDs.
Of course, little things like facts kind of get in the way of your propaganda don’t they?
August 15th, 2007 at 4:40 amOh, and Steed, I wouldn’t exactly call bombing Iraq 8 times doing nothing. You can’t have it both ways on this issue.
August 15th, 2007 at 4:43 amBG, it’s you libs who want it both ways. According to libs Clinton wasn’t lying he was wrong about Iraq’s WMDs. But Bush wasn’t wrong, he was lying about Iraq’s WMDs.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:39 amsteed
More information had been revealed under Bush to show he was lying, further there is evidence that Bush’s administration was fixing the evidence to make the case for war stronger.
The prime example is the Plame case, where Joe Wilson revealed that the Nigerian Yellow-Cake document was a forgery. The Whitehouse retaliated by outing his wife.
While Clinton was mistaken, and his evidence was shown to be insuffecient for an invasion, he didn’t fix the evidence around his policy or try to make the case for war look stronger then it really was.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:45 amJoe Wilson, liar. That’s what the 911 Commission found.
“The former ambassador also told Committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article…which said, “among the Envoy’s conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because ‘the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.’” Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the “dates were wrong and the names were wrong” when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports.”
As for your changing the meaning of Mathew Rycroft’s term “fixed”. Consider this use of the word fix in his Sept 18, 2002 memo regarding a meeting with John Scarlett.
“This is now fixed for 0800 in John Scarlett’s office tomorrow morning…”
You
August 15th, 2007 at 2:25 pmPardon me, that was the U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments report, not 911 Commission.
August 15th, 2007 at 3:07 pmsteed
Blah, blah, blah. The truth remains that the documents were forged, and that Joe Wilson’s wife paid for Joe Wilson revealing that the documents were forged. Hence the Libby trial, and Libby being found guilty of defeating the ends of Justice, and perjury.
Your guys lied to you, and all you can do is try and attack the messenger.
August 15th, 2007 at 3:11 pmOh, and just to have more fun with you Steedy pooh, Valerie Plame was an agent with the CIA who had recently gone undercover. Her name was linked to a CIA front company.
I fail to see how he could reveal his wife recomended him for the job without, you know, blowing her cover.
August 15th, 2007 at 3:17 pmi KNEW i’d heard that phrase back then…
this is the best link i can find at this time… short search, done now…
[...]
August 15th, 2007 at 3:59 pmPaper tiger was the pithy phrase coined by Mao Tse-tung to convey the notion that American military power was overestimated.
[...]
http://taiwansecurity.org/LAT/LAT-01192000-Paper-Tiger.htm
Yes or no, was Iraq in compliance with cease fire agreements and UN resolutions? Were Iraq’s WMD declarations ever considered to be full and accurate? Clinton and Bush agreed that Iraq was not in compliance. Either they were both lying or they were both wrong, i.e. imperfect intelligence. Or do you want to have it both ways?
You keep on changing and shifting your arguments as I destroy each one with evidence. Where’s your links, or do you only have allegations formed around liberal talking points?
August 15th, 2007 at 4:08 pmsteed
You are the one shifting the argument, because I destroyed yours completely.
It wasn’t found to be in suffecient contravention to merit military intervention. Oh, and the whole weapons inspectors drama? What Saddam wanted, was simply to not have the countries ethusing over invading Iraq, included in the weapons inspectors.
That’s what got me at the time, Saddam’s request was ultimately reasonable.
Oh, and Clinton was wrong. He had imperfect intellegence, which he took to Congress and the Senate. They ruled that it was not enough to go to war on, they wanted further evidence.
Bush later went forward with faked intellegence, reports edited to read as saying the exact opposite the non-redacted versions said, and some outright doozies. Read the Downing Street Memo.
Basically, Clinton took an honest case to the American people. Bush sexed his up, which means Clinton was wrong, but Bush lied.
August 15th, 2007 at 4:26 pmBG, please provide evidence, references or links. You’ve provided nothing to support your arguments other than your ignorant opinion.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:46 pmsteed
Easy enough. I trust you know about what Joe Wilson said, so lets just cut to the corroboration
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.irq.un.transcript.elbaradei/
And I hope this comes out:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo
Note that I have linked you to transcripts.
August 16th, 2007 at 3:43 amOkay it didn’t post. Lets try that again:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.irq.un.transcript.elbaradei/
And
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo
August 16th, 2007 at 3:46 amAnd from the second:
There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime’s record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.
August 16th, 2007 at 3:52 amWait, it likes the Downing Street Memo but not the IAEA quote?
August 16th, 2007 at 3:57 amAnother example
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20030608/ai_n12583062
August 16th, 2007 at 4:06 amWashington Post on Powell
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/transcripts/powelltext_020503.htmlrv/nation/transcripts/powelltext_020503.html
August 16th, 2007 at 4:07 amYet another link
http://www.yirmeyahureview.com/articles/iraq_uavs.htm
August 16th, 2007 at 4:11 amOh, and Bush admitting he lied
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030721-464405,00.html
August 16th, 2007 at 4:12 amAnd the Kofi says the invasion was illegal:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm
August 16th, 2007 at 4:13 amBG, I will debunk those red herrings in short order, in fact I already have refutted some of them (see example English use of “fixed” in Rycroft memo). But you haven’t answered my argument.
Yes or no, did Clinton (and Blair) believe Iraq was in compliance with cease fire agreements and UN resolutions, specifically Res 1441?
At then end of hiis term, did Clinton believe Iraq had WMD and would distribute to rogue nations or terrorists?
Yes or no, did Bush (and Blair) believe Iraq was in compliance with cease fire agreements and UN resolutions, specifically Res 1441?
Did Bush believe Iraq had WMD and would distribute to rogue nations or terrorists?
August 16th, 2007 at 11:16 amsteed
First of all the term “fixed” in that context was extremely clear. It was the American meaning, not the English one (Otherwise, why the “but”?
To anwer your question:
Yes to all, but that isn’t where the lies came in.
The lies comes in, with Bush falsifying evidence to strengthen his case for invading Iraq. Of course, such a concept might just be beyond you.
You can think you are right, and make up evidence to “prove” you are right and still be a bloody liar.
August 16th, 2007 at 11:23 amYour response to my questions is yes. Now you agree with me, thanks for playing.
btw, “fixed” as used by Rycroft in both the Downing memo and the memo I referenced means “set”. Rycroft summarized in the memo that someone in the meeting felt that evidence was selected to “set” around or to fit the policy, rather than the policy was being set around the evidence. Doesn’t change the fact that Clinton, Blair and Bush felt the only way to solve the Iraq problem was with regime change. See Clinton’s National Security Strategy I quoted above.
The Hutton Inquiry states:
“We state in this Report that the SIS had two independent sources for the Iraqi intention to purchase uranium from Niger. The SIS is still awaiting the clarification of the documentary evidence from one of the sources; the other source’s reliability has been examined and is considered to be sound. The SIS continues to believe that the Iraqis were attempting to negotiate the purchase of uranium from Niger. We have questioned them about the basis of their judgement and conclude that it is reasonable.”
August 16th, 2007 at 8:36 pmsteed
The Hutton report is noted for being so uncritical of Britain’s government that it was immediately dismissed a total whitewash.
It’s findings were later questioned by medical practioners, the ambulance crews at the scene of the “suicide” and, on the basis of Dr David Kelly’s diary, of David Boucher’s meeting with Dr Kelly.
Futher, it didn’t actually examine pre-War intellegence, Hutton going to far as to say “I had to draw the line somewhere.”
The actual inquiry into the evidence for the Iraq war was the Butler report, which found the evidence to be unreliable at best. While the Butler report does mention that Britain had its information from other sources, it did not rule on the veracity of the Niger documents themselves.
The Hutton report is not a great source, whereas the IAEA is a reliable source. According to the IAEA testamony I linked you to…
Joe Wilson was telling the truth about the Niger documents. Further, according to the Whitehouse in later testimony – note the Time article – the Whitehouse knew that it was dubious.
Bush lied America into a war.
August 17th, 2007 at 4:12 amsteed
Or do you think that falsifying evidence in support of your conclusions isn’t lying?
It would explain a lot about a fairly large sector of the rightwing.
August 17th, 2007 at 7:52 amBG, you’ve already agreed with me, what’s the point in beating your straw dog? Was William Cohen lying in 1997? (see my referenced interview above).
As for the Butler Report, I’m glad you brought it up. The report destroys your wikipedia plagiarism arguments. And it refutes the IAEA’s conclusions. It states,
For the reasons given above, even now it is premature to reach conclusions about Iraq’s prohibited weapons. But from the evidence which has been found and de-briefing of Iraqi personnel it appears that prior to the war the Iraqi regime:
a. Had the strategic intention of resuming the pursuit of prohibited weapons
programmes, including if possible its nuclear weapons programme, when
United Nations inspection regimes were relaxed and sanctions were eroded
or lifted.
b. In support of that goal, was carrying out illicit research and development, and procurement, activities.
c. Was developing ballistic missiles with a range longer than permitted under
relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions.
d. Did not, however, have significant – if any – stocks of chemical or biological
weapons in a state fit for deployment, or developed plans for using them.
In preparing the dossier, the UK consulted the US. The CIA advised caution about any suggestion that Iraq had succeeded in acquiring uranium from Africa, but agreed that there was evidence that it had been sought.
We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government’s dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that:
The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought
significant quantities of uranium from Africa was well-founded.”
503. From our examination of the intelligence and other material on Iraqi
attempts to buy uranium from Africa, we have concluded that:
a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in
1999.
b. The British Government had intelligence from several different
sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring
uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of
Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.
c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium and the British Government did not claim this.
d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.
August 17th, 2007 at 1:04 pmsteed
It doesn’t change the fact that the forgery was used by the President in arguing his case for war, when he knew it to be suspect.
Further, it didn’t rule that Saddam was successful in buying Uranium from Niger, only that he sought to. That he sought to, was why he had sanctions on him and all you have proved, is that the sanctions worked.
The Niger documents, amounted to an agreement to sell by Niger. They were forged. Joe Wilson told the truth.
Bush. Lied.
And you evidently support being lied to.
August 17th, 2007 at 3:24 pm“Further, it didn’t rule that Saddam was successful in buying Uranium from Niger, only that he sought to.”
Who said he was successful? Another straw man argument?
Bush:
“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .â€
You my friend have been caught in so many lies and misrepresentations it’s comical. Liar.
Read my last post very slowly, specifically this…
“d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.”
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html
And the sanctions were not working. But now your shifting the argument again because you’ve been caught with your head up your arse. See Clinton’s National Strategy I referenced above. He said regime change was the only solution. Sanctions were not effective at removing Saddam. But if you want to beat another straw dog…
August 17th, 2007 at 5:26 pmsteed
The only one with the head up his arse, as you so phrase it, is you. You seem to believe that to lie, to support your beliefs is not lying, so when a prosecutor who thinks a suspect has comitted a crime has the police plant evidence against that suspect, there is nothing wrong.
The Niger documents were forged. Bush knew them to be dubious, used them in part of his justification of war, and when Joe Wilson revealed that they were dubious, Bush had Joe Wilson’s wife’s identity as a CIA operative leaked in retaliation.
That makes Bush a liar.
That the documents weren’t included in the British case for war is irrelevant.
Oh, and your claims of plaguerism? What, you don’t like it when we check up on your data?
August 18th, 2007 at 8:03 am