‘Good reason to be skeptical’ of ‘dog and pony’ Iraq visits.
‘Good reason to be skeptical’ of ‘dog and pony’ Iraq visits.
Pointing his finger at members of Congress and dignitaries like Brookings’ analysts Michael O’Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack, who make brief sojourns to Iraq and then return with “bold pronouncements of ‘what I saw’ at the front,” former Washington Post Baghdad correspondent Jonathan Finer warns today that “those who pass quickly through the war zone should stop ascribing their epiphanies to what are largely ceremonial visits“:
As Washington anticipates a September report assessing the troop surge, there is good reason to be skeptical of such snapshot accounts.
A dizzying number of dignitaries have passed through Baghdad for high-level briefings. The Hill newspaper reported this month that 76 U.S. senators have traveled to Iraq during the war, 38 in the past 12 months. Most never left the Green Zone or other well-protected enclaves. Few, if any, changed the views they held before arriving. [...]
Those who visit Iraq undertake significant risks, which are inherent in traveling to Baghdad, no matter who’s providing their security. Policymakers should be commended for refusing to blindly trust accounts from diplomats, soldiers or journalists. But it’s worth remembering what these visits are and what they are not. Prescient insights rarely emerge from a few days in-country behind the blast walls. [...]
It goes without saying that everyone can, and in this country should, have an opinion about the war, no matter how much time the person has spent in Iraq, if any. But having left a year ago, I’ve stopped pretending to those who ask that I have a keen sense of what it’s like on the ground today. Similarly, those who pass quickly through the war zone should stop ascribing their epiphanies to what are largely ceremonial visits.
(HT: Kevin Drum.)
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The Green Zone seems to be the Twilight Zone of unreality.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:39 amI wouldn’t mind cancelling all VIP and reporters in the warzone myself. Noted historian, David McCullough has correctly observed that we would have LOST our own American Revolution had today’s press been reporting back in 1776.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:40 amAbout the only person I believe about what is going on in Iraq is Michael Ware. He is the only reporter that has been in Iraq from the beginning and the only one that didn’t bug out when the job became very dangerous. He has been there long enough to have established contacts that help him get to the truth.
Michael Ware says that Iraq is a mess and that it isn’t getting any better. And I believe him.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:40 amOh boy, Jake is here.
Let’s not step in his poop folks. It’s really easy to walk around.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:41 amTo sum up the Washington Post diatribe. We are winning but don’t tell anyone.
Micheal Ware never leaves the green zone and his stories are written by Al Qaeda stringers.
Michale Yon is the reporter of record in Iraq.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:42 amMaybe your country can just stop attacking other countries in an effort to control their govt. Focus on things like the American Revolution, your poor, unhealthy, homeless. Look at your own borders rather then destroying the borders of others. Worry about the criminals in your govt instead of the criminals in wealthy countries. Stop coveting thy neighbors. Stuff like that. Your foreign policy sucks.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:42 amAll these “visits” are exactly dog and pony PR stunts, manipulated by the Pentagon and White House. No real contact with locals, just the orchestrated mooing of well rehearsed cows.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:43 amOh, yes. The American Revolution is exactly like Iraq. If reporters report, the British win.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:44 amIf Bush defender trolls believe that Iraq debacle can be won, then they must enlist to fight and die in Iraq.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:44 amMy favourite David McCullough quote: “Information is not learning. Information isn’t wisdom. It isn’t common sense, necessarily. It isn’t kindness or trustworthiness or good judgment or imagination or a sense of humor or courage. It doesn’t tell us right from wrong,”
August 18th, 2007 at 11:46 amFor the record, I already served in the Korean War.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:47 amI also believe Michael Ware is reporting about as close to the truth as we have been able to get here. As bilbobaggins says in #3, Ware has been there from the start, he knows the people, he knows the ground, he has established himself with the people there and he speaks with credibility.
When his reports are counter to the White House spin, he is labeled and dismissed by WH supporters and hawks – they believe only those who tell them what they want to hear.
The O’Hanlon/Pollack report was exposed for what it was and the two of them have backtracked on the certainty of the report as they first reported.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:48 amThey haven’t backtracked. Again, if you want to know what is going on in Iraq ready Micheal Yon not Micheal Ware who has the credibility of Baghdad Bob.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:50 amThe Green Zone in Baghdad, Iraq, is like a Club Med, but in the middle of chaos. Inside the walls everybody believes Iraq is improving and outside the walls everybody knows Iraq is Hell.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:50 amFor the record, I already served in the Korean War.
Ok Jake, what company, platoon, division were you in? What was your rank. This should be interesting and shouldn’t take you long to respond as any war vet I’ve ever met would proudly state & quickly remember all of these details.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:50 amFor balanced reporting and not leftwing wishful thinking go here:
http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/
August 18th, 2007 at 11:52 amJake > I knew a Korean War vet and he would not be hanging out on TP threads. I highly doubt you are of the age to have been in Korean War. Vietnam War age I could believe, but NOT Korea.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:53 amOh, Francine R is here too. More poop to step around. It’s getting pretty smelly in here.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:54 amah yes, the michael yon cheerleaders…
this, from a poster at drum’s blog (link above):
Michael Yon is an ex-Green Beret, embedded with the US military who thinks an endorsement by Col. “Olly” North, an officer who broke the laws of this land and thought loyalty to politics and terrorism outranked loyalty to the country, is a recommendation to his own reporting, which Verdant thinks somehow unbiased.
However, there are and have been long-term reporters, who have remained outside the Green zone and US military bias, are not committed to white-washing either the US military, the Iraqi politics or our own government, and are a more legitimate voice about the obvious failures of this “war”.
The time for propaganda is long gone.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:59 amPosted by: notthere on August 18, 2007 at 2:27 AM
…
I’ve posted that all before, Dave C. I was with the Army’s 60th Signal Service Company out of Fort Lewis, deployed to Korea and then Japan at the First Tokyo Arsenal, until my honorable discharge as a Sgt. Any more questions will have to wait until I get back from golfing.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:00 pmDavid McCullough has correctly observed that we would have LOST our own American Revolution had today’s press been reporting back in 1776.
Comment by Jake D. — August 18, 2007 @ 11:40 am
Complete BS. For once, try making a valid comment on SOMETHING.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:01 pmMichale Yon is the reporter of record in Iraq.
Comment by Frank J — August 18, 2007 @ 11:42 am
Translation: he’s telling me what I want to hear.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:03 pmMicheal Ware never leaves the green zone and his stories are written by Al Qaeda stringers.
Comment by Frank J — August 18, 2007 @ 11:42 am
Proof please! Oh, you were only kidding? Oh, you big silly, you.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:03 pmStop coveting thy neighbors. Stuff like that. Your foreign policy sucks.
Comment by Dave C — August 18, 2007 @ 11:42 am
Careful, Dave C, you’re making “sense”.
Why does “sense” hate America so?
Hey, anybody want some Freedom Fries? They’re pipin’ hot!
August 18th, 2007 at 12:04 pm“… who has the credibility of Baghdad Bob.”
Comment by Frank J — August 18, 2007 @ 11:50 am
From a poster who has the credibility of a talking dog…
August 18th, 2007 at 12:06 pmGoing golfing proves Jake is of Korean War vet age > lol.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:08 pmMy dad is a Korean War Vet, he enlisted on the very last day. He is also pushing 70. I am willing to bet, that Jake was stationed in Korea, but was not part of the actual war, just the stand off we have been having since 1953.
Course he also writes like a grade schooler, so the chances of him telling the truth is pretty unlikely.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:13 pm> Noted historian, David McCullough
we’ve been over this jake
Is he the same “noted historian” who Bush gave a medal of freedom to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_McCullough
“In December 2006, McCullough was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom.”
Do you think this guys statements are as accurate as the last guy who got a medal of freedom from bush? (hint..the last guy said iraq’s having WMD was a “slam dunk”)
August 18th, 2007 at 12:14 pm>Michale Yon is the reporter of record in Iraq.
A former special forces soldier with no journalism experience who liked the bloodbath in iraq so much he decided to go over there and tell everyone about it…
August 18th, 2007 at 12:16 pmDavid McCullough has correctly observed that we would have LOST our own American Revolution had today’s press been reporting back in 1776.
Comment by Jake D.
———————————————————-
I can play the meaningless game of false comparisons too.
In Vietnam, if the Vietnamese had to fight with the muskets used by the Americans during our Civil War, they would have lost in heart beat.
Oh wait we have a modern media. And in 1774 they had a modern media…for the time.
Perhaps instead of false questions and straw men you can point to the historical lessons learned from the American Revolutions.
I have one. It is not only likely, it is inevitable that a local population will will defeat a protracted occupation. It may not happen quickly, and it may not happen without financial support of other nations (i.e. Dutch financing according to McCullough), but the local population will win.
Sincerely,
August 18th, 2007 at 12:20 pmA couple observations:
1. Jakester’s comparison between the American Revolution and Iraq is intriguing. We are playing the role of the British in Iraq — that is, we are the interlopers. We played the role of the British in Vietnam, too. See any similarities there, jakester? When we fail to meet our objectives in Iraq, it will not be “the media” that’s to blame. It will be a misguided foreign policy and an incompetent presi-dunce that’s to blame.
2. I, too, think all future VIP tours of Iraq should be cancelled. Instead, the Michele Bachmanns of this world should just read Micheal Yon’s blog. The result will be the same and taxpayer dollars will be saved.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:28 pmOk, there are a lot of people here stepping in the poop on the floor, and the smell is getting much worse.
Can’t we just step around the poop please?
August 18th, 2007 at 12:29 pmOk Jake, what company, platoon, division were you in? What was your rank. This should be interesting and shouldn’t take you long to respond as any war vet I’ve ever met would proudly state & quickly remember all of these details.
Comment by Dave C — August 18, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Any information Jake D posts about his alleged Korean War service is automatically suspect, since he initially plagiarized another veteran’s record as his own.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:36 pmI’ve posted that all before, Dave C. I was with the Army’s 60th Signal Service Company out of Fort Lewis, deployed to Korea and then Japan at the First Tokyo Arsenal, until my honorable discharge as a Sgt.
Any information Jake D posts about his alleged Korean War service is automatically suspect, since he initially plagiarized another veteran’s record as his own.
I know. I wondered if he’d change the details of his supposed war experience. He hasn’t. He removed a few details so it didn’t look so bloody identical but he basically found/copied from this site…
http://www.koreanwar.org/html/units/60sigsvc.htm
Whatta complete moron.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:47 pmOf course the record of the moonbats on here for the defense of the United States can only produce laughter.
The left only wants to hear from the Michael Wares who simply parrot the blue blogs and will accept no facts only the e-mails from the Al Qaeda stringers. The last thing the left wants is a United States victory and certainly not one lead by George Bush.
Unfortunately for their dead ideology that is exactly what is happening.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:53 pmbtw Jake, what was your MOS?
August 18th, 2007 at 12:55 pmComment by Frank J — August 18, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
Pure projection, you sad creature.
August 18th, 2007 at 12:58 pm“…favourite David McCullough quote:”
Heaviest, hardest to start, smelliest, and most dangerous chain saws ever made.
August 18th, 2007 at 1:05 pmUgliest, too.
Dog and pony?
Rat and vulture seems more apropo.
August 18th, 2007 at 1:15 pmblah, blah, moonbats…blah, blah, the left…blah, blah, blue blogs…blah, blah, Al Qaeda stringers…blah, blah, dead ideology…blah, blah, ad nauseum…
August 18th, 2007 at 1:39 pmTest
August 18th, 2007 at 1:43 pmbtw Jake, what was your MOS?
Comment by Dave C — August 18, 2007 @ 12:55 pm
If Jake is 75, and he went out to shoot 9 holes, let’s see, 1 hole every 2 hours, uh, he’ll be back around 2:30 tomorrow morning.
August 18th, 2007 at 1:49 pmNothing short of a Michael Ware are assessment will be believable.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:33 pmComment by michael — August 18, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
oh no… there’s not enough ??? so you must be the
“good, daytime michael”…
you should make an adjustment to your name…
the other day you got pummelled here, a case of mistaken identity…
there is an annoying obnoxious trooll who posts as “michael”…
not sure how that can happen, but there are 2 michaels…
just so you know…
August 18th, 2007 at 2:56 pm…
Micheal Ware never leaves the green zone and his stories are written by Al Qaeda stringers.
Michale Yon is the reporter of record in Iraq.
Comment by Frank J — August 18, 2007 @ 11:42 am
why would anybody believe an ignorant chickenhawk like you, frank? all you bring to the table is Opposite Day, you’re consistently and embarrassingly wrong, all the time. do you work for Al Qaeda, like Bush and Cheny?
August 18th, 2007 at 3:01 pmMicheal Ware never leaves the green zone and his stories are written by Al Qaeda stringers.
Michale Yon is the reporter of record in Iraq.
Comment by Frank J — August 18, 2007 @ 11:42 am
They have been caught in their lies and disinformation campaign, red-handed, and O’Hanlon was forced to admit he was a liar, frank. like I said, you’re always wrong.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:03 pmThis sounds like one news rag trying to smear another, it’s all part of the game. But when it comes down to it, there is undeniable progess being made in Iraq.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:07 pmThis sounds like one news rag trying to smear another, it’s all part of the game. But when it comes down to it, there is undeniable progess being made in Iraq.
Comment by Liberator — August 18, 2007 @ 3:07 pm
Really, it seems that anybody with common sense could figure out what Finer is saying is the truth. And it sounds like you trolls are bashing Ware because he isn’t telling Bushco’s lies.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:34 pmComment by shane — August 18, 2007 @ 3:34 pm
I don’t believe any of the idiots who report from Iraq. I look at the numbers (US soldier deaths have been decreasing, last month sectarian violence was down, etc. etc.) and I know that progress is definitely being made. But we will all have a better idea of just how much progress has been made when we hear from Gen. Petraeus.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:43 pmBut when it comes down to it, there is undeniable progess being made in Iraq.
Liberator, define progress and how you’re measuring it.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:45 pm3706 dead as of yesterday.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:48 pm80 dead in July.
The report that July was “ever so much better” than the previous month was the result of cherrypicking certain months with which to compare.
Dave C,
If you do not know simple English, I suggest that you buy a dictionary and read a book. That way when you read a word that is unfamiliar to you, you can look up the definition right away.
4th grade starts soon for you, buddy, I bet you are excited knowing that you are going to see all of your friends again!
August 18th, 2007 at 3:50 pmThe report that July was “ever so much better†than the previous month was the result of cherrypicking certain months with which to compare.
True enough. July/07, worst casualty count for July/06/05/04/03… same for June/07, worse then any previous June… same for May/07, April/07 etc. Now casualties have dropped since May/07 so I assume that Liberator is saying that he’s much happier that only 80+ deaths occurred in July rather then the 130+ in May… now that’s progress! What’s he gonna say if August is higher then July? You can’t measure progress on a daily basis. If progress is merely the number of deaths then 2007 is a very bad year indeed.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:52 pmLiberator, how do YOU define progress. By any dictionary definition there has been no progress in Iraq. You must be using some other dictionary so please define the term as you appear to be using it. By not answering the question you’re proving that your definition of progress is what you hear GWB say… if he says there’s progress then you accept that.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:54 pmdave c,
G00gle the following:
“define: progress”
Educate yourself, bud.
August 18th, 2007 at 4:17 pmBut when it comes down to it, there is undeniable progess being made in Iraq.
Liberator, google “undeniable”. Many deny that there is any shred of progress in Iraq. It’s clearly not undeniable. There is no progress being made. Americans continue to die. The Iraq govt is a shambles. The Iraq army is a joke. There is civil war. Iraqi civilians continue to flee & to die. There are little to no power/water services. Oil production is below pre-war levels. Clearly I won’t find any dictionary definition of progress that would be applicable to what’s going on in Iraq. Neither will you, that’s why you won’t answer a simple question… how do YOU define the progress in Iraq that you say is undeniable?
August 18th, 2007 at 4:22 pmComment by Dave C — August 18, 2007 @ 4:22 pm
Dave C,
For some reason TP doesn’t want me to go into detail.
(You know… because TP is a propaganda machine and all)
I will say this:
Iraq is, was and always will be a $h!t-hole, however, the US has deposed $@dd@m (insane tyrrant) and that is clearly an example of progress.
August 18th, 2007 at 4:48 pmI doubt you’ll find that the instability of the region as a result of the execution of Saddam yields much comfort in the coming years. So what you call progress will be small comfort for the sh!t that will follow. btw, GWB is viewed as an insane tyrant by much of the world. Reap what you sow.
August 18th, 2007 at 5:10 pmBuying carpets while under a heavy guard of US troops in not a sign of progress in Iraq. The latest round of violence in Iraq suggests the surge is not working. Neo-cons needs to accept reality. The Bush doctrine on Iraq is a failure.
August 18th, 2007 at 5:19 pmPropped-up-ganderers…
August 18th, 2007 at 7:42 pmLiberator – demonically and democratically are not the same. please be sure to speck your chelling.
August 18th, 2007 at 7:56 pm>the US has deposed $@dd@m (insane tyrrant) and that is clearly an >example of progress.
please explain the reason Braindead ROnnie Raygun and RUmsfeld thought armings and allying themselves with Saddam in the 80’s was “progress” for the region.
Please explain why that logic no longer applies.
And yes, he was actually at the height of his brutality when we were allies with him.
I’ll give you a hint.. it was some of those “radical islambs” we were worried about taking over iraq….
Saddam was brutal but the people now are no better.. you just don’t have one iconic dictator to fixate your simple mind on, so you can’t fathom that these people could be just as bad or worse than saddam.. and while he was brutal, he wasnt insane.. people who don’t behave logically don’t go from being born a shepard to running a country for 30 years.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:15 pmI think I’ve got a great idea:
Let’s build a sound stage in the middle of a wasteland somewhere. Put the reporters on an airplane, have it fly around in circles, and (after 10 hours) tell them that it landed in Baghdad (although it really landed at the sound stage).
As we have no idea of the culture of Iraq, we could hire a mob of Russians to stand around inn Arab garb, speak Russian (after all, we’ll never notice the difference), and pretend to be Arab merchants selling rugs. Alternately, we could supplement the cast with Mexicans who are waiting to be deported.
Each week, we could run through at least 20 Congress Critters.
Am I missing anything ?
August 18th, 2007 at 10:57 pm