FISA law grants powers well beyond wiretapping.
FISA law grants powers well beyond wiretapping.
The New York Times reports that broad new surveillance powers approved by Congress this month could allow the Bush administration to conduct spy operations that go well beyond wiretapping. The legislation may allow, without court approval, certain types of physical searches on American soil and the collection of Americans’ business records. More:
The dispute illustrates how lawmakers, in a frenetic, end-of-session scramble, passed legislation they may not have fully understood and may have given the administration more surveillance powers than it sought.
It also offers a case study in how changing a few words in a complex piece of legislation has the potential to fundamentally alter the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a landmark national security law. [...]
Several legal experts said that by redefining the meaning of “electronic surveillance,” the new law narrows the types of communications covered in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, known as FISA, by indirectly giving the government the power to use intelligence collection methods far beyond wiretapping that previously required court approval if conducted inside the United States. [...]
For instance, the legislation would allow the government, under certain circumstances, to demand the business records of an American in Chicago without a warrant if it asserts that the search concerns its surveillance of a person who is in Paris, experts said.
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Mueller’s Notes Detail White House’s Craven Attempts To Take Advantage Of Sick Ashcroft
In a July hearing before the House Judiciary
My question :
Why isn’t the Lamestream Press running with this story to convict Gonzales of perjury? Meanwhile Gonzales day by day is killing the 4th Amendment with his wiretapping???
August 19th, 2007 at 9:20 amYour Democratic congress at work. All the boy king need do is say the word terrorism and they collapse like a soufle in an earthquake.
August 19th, 2007 at 9:32 amTerror law puts Britons at risk of surveillance by US agents
A new law swept through Congress by the US government before the summer recess is to give American security agencies unprecedented powers to spy on British citizens without a warrant.
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was approved by Congress earlier this month to help the National Security Agency in the fight against terrorism. But it has now emerged that the bill gives the security services powers to intercept all telephone calls, internet traffic and emails made by British citizens across US-based networks.
As much of the world’s telecoms networks and internet infrastructure runs through the US, the new act will give the security services huge scope for monitoring and intercepting Britons’ private communications, as well as those of other foreign citizens. The new act has led to fears it will see a huge increase in the number of British citizens being extradited to the US.
‘Just because it happens to pass through the US they claim they can do whatever they want,’ said Tony Bunyan, director of Statewatch, the civil rights group that campaigns against state surveillance. ‘Where is the EU saying, “What’s going on here, we’ve got to protect the rights of our citizens?”‘
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2151942,00.html
August 19th, 2007 at 9:42 amCan you hear the brown boots clicking???
August 19th, 2007 at 9:55 amJust The Man getting ready for the big crash. Totaltarianism at it’s finest.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:02 amThey go along to get along. Stick your head up above the heads of your peers, and it gets hammered down. Totalitarianism.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:06 amI don’t care about that. That will work itself out. However, Data Mining and Total Information Awareness are unstoppable. Those are the real covert tools of a dictator society and the tools they really covet and allegedly use.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:13 amWho the hell cares about whiny British citizens?
Perhaps we should just overturn the 4th amendment and tell these morons to shove it.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:15 amWow, I bet you guys are glad you elected that Democratic Congress to hold Bush accountable, huh? I mean since Democrats have been in power the Iraq war has only increased (you guys forced no changes there) and attrocious laws like this have been passed and renewed. Pathetic. It’s like Bush still has a Republican-controlled Congress
Your party is governed by weak leaders. Reid and Pelosi aren’t exactly inspiring–they’re morons. Reid has no backbone, how did you guys let this pussy lead the Senate? And now you guys are going to nominate an entirely unelectable person like Hillary, and lose the presidency again.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:23 amWhat Fourth Amendment. The Boy King is doing everything in his power to diminish, if not destroy, the Fourth Amendment. Combine that effort with the Padilla conviction, and we should all be worried.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:26 amarguewithmydad.com
You seem to think the Constitution is still somehow relevant. How yesterday.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:28 amAnd your solution would be…? Lyndon Larouche?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:30 amm12 sez:
Perhaps you should. Perhaps you should attempt to openly repeal the Fourth Amendment, instead of continually attempting to clandestinely circumvent it. Perhaps then we could look on you with something a little better than contempt.
You want to overturn the Fourth Amendment, fine. You’re welcome to try. Until that happens, we expect you to abide by the law as it’s written.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:35 amWhat Fourth Amendment. The Boy King is doing everything in his power to diminish, if not destroy, the Fourth Amendment. Combine that effort with the Padilla conviction, and we should all be worried.
arguewithmydad.com
Oh noes! God forbid we convict and electrocute traitors like Padilla!
August 19th, 2007 at 10:42 amPerhaps you should. Perhaps you should attempt to openly repeal the Fourth Amendment, instead of continually attempting to clandestinely circumvent it. Perhaps then we could look on you with something a little better than contempt.
You want to overturn the Fourth Amendment, fine. You’re welcome to try. Until that happens, we expect you to abide by the law as it’s written.
Are you going to use the same logic on liberal attempts to circumvent the electoral college?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:43 amAre we headed there or are we already here?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:43 amCorrected: Oh noes! God forbid we convict and electrocute traitors like George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove!
August 19th, 2007 at 10:45 amIt’s funny to see liberals act like they care about the constitution. When Clinton was in power, he trashed it.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:46 amAnd your solution would be…? Lyndon Larouche?
Speaking of Lyndons, President Johnson had no problems wiretapping the Vice President and others in the Congressional building!
August 19th, 2007 at 10:47 amYou have empty rhetoric. Examples to back up the wingnuttery, please. BTW: What is the GOP trying to do in California as we speak?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:47 amCorrected: Oh noes! God forbid we convict and electrocute traitors like George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove!
Hmm? I thought your kind doesn’t believe in the electric chair.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:48 amExamples? Put up, or shut up.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:48 amm12 sez:
Elaborate, please. How exactly are liberals attempting to “circumvent” the Electoral College?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:48 amYou have empty rhetoric. Examples to back up the wingnuttery, please. BTW: What is the GOP trying to do in California as we speak?
Md. Senate Advances Bill To Dodge Electoral College
Maryland is poised to become the first state to agree to bypass the electoral college and effectively elect U.S. presidents by national popular vote under legislation moving briskly toward the desk of Gov. Martin O’Malley (D).
But the bill comes with a big caveat: It would not take effect until enough other states agree to do the same. “It’s a long way from home,” said Senate President Thomas Mike V. Miller Jr. (D-Calvert). “I don’t know if it will happen in my lifetime.”
August 19th, 2007 at 10:49 amThere was a funny clip this morning on one of the news shows. Barak Hussien Obama did not know what a trailer hitch was. This guy is so out of it. He’s been living in a bubble too long.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:49 amProof? We already know what Nixon did. Please give us the scoop on LBJ.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:49 amYou were obviously wrong in your thinking.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:50 amWhat kind of adult goes by the name billy?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:51 amComment by m12 — August 19, 2007 @ 10:49 am
This is not circumvention.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:51 amYou were obviously wrong in your thinking.
Comment by billy
Oh the irony…
August 19th, 2007 at 10:52 amhttp://www.deepjournal.com/p/7/a/en/681.html
The wiretapping madness in the White House during Johnson administration
Johnson also wiretapped as much as he could
Nixon’s wiretapping mania was not totally foreign to the White House. ‘Though Johnson in principle disliked tapping and wiretaps, he secretly taped more than 7,500 of his own telephone conversations as President. Moreover, during the 1964 campaign, after a visit to the White House, Richard Russell wrote, “[J. Edgar] Hoover has apparently been turned loose and is tapping everything…. [Johnson] stated it took him hours each night to read them all (but he loves this)”‘, writes Robert Dallek.
Johnson had his own Vice-President tapped
August 19th, 2007 at 10:54 amJohnson suffered from the war with Vietnam. He saw the war as ‘a road from which there was no turning back’.
This is not circumvention.
Comment by billy — August 19, 2007 @ 10:51 am
Should I call it ‘dodging’ instead of circumvention?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:54 amLBJ cut and ran from office, like liberals want to do in Iraq.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:55 amYou were obviously wrong in your thinking.
Comment by billy — August 19, 2007 @ 10:50 am
Perhaps. Then again, Amnesty international and company kept whining every time some axe murdering hooligan gets executed.
Remmeber how they kept begging Governor Bush to grant clemency to undermine the efficient Texas justice system?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:57 amIt’s funny to see liberals act like they care about the constitution. When Clinton was in power, he trashed it.
Comment by Alligator Man — August 19, 2007 @ 10:46 amlink, or you’re a liar, p. never mind, we know you have nothing.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:07 amPerhaps. Then again, Amnesty international and company kept whining every time some axe murdering hooligan gets executed.
Remmeber how they kept begging Governor Bush to grant clemency to undermine the efficient Texas justice system?
Comment by m12 — August 19, 2007 @ 10:57 am
link, or you’re a liar.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:07 amRemmeber how they kept begging Governor Bush to grant clemency to undermine the efficient Texas justice system?
Comment by m12 — August 19, 2007 @ 10:57 am
Yeah, remember like, he was gonna kill this lady, and she had years earlier become a born again Christian, and she was ministering to her fellow inmates, and she had killed her abusive husband and was on death row. She turned her life around to the lords path. She asked Mr. Bush for clemency.
He mocked her. Then he fried her. Society is much safer as a result.
Anyhow, here on the Lords day, trolls collect overtime pay. The topic; FISA law and the granting of spying powers to Alberto Gonzales, a man we all feel we can trust.
Feeding the trolls, even on the Lord’s day, is a violation of the 11th commandment, right after honor the sabbath and keep it holy.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:07 amlink, or you’re a liar.
Shut yer yap or youre a homo.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:15 amYa’ Momma didn’t mind. And she smells of elderberries.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:19 amWe also have the clemency granted to the ever so treasonous “Scooter” Libby. What kind of adult goes by the name of Scooter?
August 19th, 2007 at 11:24 amWay to go, Democrats. You’re our constitutional heroes.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:25 amthere are no adults in the Republicant party. They all stopped maturing just before puberty. It’s why they’re famous for pedophilia, and why they chase pages around the Congress. electing another republican is the same as reason; anybody who votes repuke sjhould move to North Korea.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:27 amPretty Bird is homophobic. Scared of your inner feelings?
August 19th, 2007 at 11:29 ampretty birdbrain comes here to troll for underage boys like p and m12.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:30 amI can’t wait until President Clinton turns FISA on the republican base. You’ve never heard howling like you’ll hear then.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:31 amGo away, Lilly, I didnt give you permission to speak. Now shooo!
August 19th, 2007 at 11:31 amThis site and the idiotic trolls who post here are tiresome. I’ve spent a week not posting here, only to come back and find the same old name calling and troll diversions of the topic.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:31 amLater, y’all.
Was I banned from posting?
August 19th, 2007 at 11:32 amBilly Ocean, Billy Idol, Billy Martin, Billy Dee Williams, Billy Barty, Billy Bob Thorton, Billy Graham, Billy Connoly, Billy Corgan, Billy Joel, Billy Bragg…my great uncle Billy Tyson…
August 19th, 2007 at 11:32 ambilly, that will be the greatest irony of all, when hillary turns the DOJ onto the complete and total destruction of the RATwing Treason GOP. she’s going to win in a walk, just so we can watch the perpwalks in Georgetown.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:32 amApparently not. Okay let’s get this party started!
August 19th, 2007 at 11:32 amWho else could we vote for? Is there any other Party out there that’s big enough to be an alternative to the Republican Party?
Your obvious stupidity aside, I agree with your overall sentiment. It’s the fault of the Democratic Party. There’s no doubt about that.
The Party of the Criminals, Jesus-freaks and Pedophiles could never have done anything that they have done if we had an actual opposition Party, instead of Republican Lite, in government.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:32 amI can’t wait until President Clinton turns FISA on the republican base. You’ve never heard howling like you’ll hear then.
Heh, even democrats dont like Clinton. Anyhoo, why would you support someone you feel is going to use the same policy that you are now decrying as a trampling of our rights?
You must be a fair-weather whiner.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:34 amRepublican Lite? So, if this is light, who’s your heavy? Newt Gingrich? HaaaaaHaaaahahahahaHa!
August 19th, 2007 at 11:35 amUnfortunately, the GOP has bought up all the news media, and Dem voters haven’t heard much in the way of truth or patriotism since the destruction of America began during the Era Of Stupid, when Reagan slept through his terms, allowing traitors like Poindexter and North to weaken our defenses and steal from the taxpayers. There are but a few patriots like us on the left remaining to do the real research and hold the truth up. america is pretty much done for as a beacon of freedom and an example of good in the world, and it’s entirely on the republican Treason party. People can’t function in a democracy if they’re lied to every day by the corporate Ratwing media.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:39 amYou must be a fair-weather whiner.
Comment by Pretty Pretty Bird — August 19, 2007 @ 11:34 am
you whine in any weather. sissy. enlist, or shut up.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:39 amWow, I bet you guys are glad you elected that Democratic Congress to hold Bush accountable, huh
Hey :
The Chimperor (with no clothes) would have dismantled the Constitution and Bill of Rights, anyways.
You’re so smart.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:41 amYou know, if I was one of the corporations that seem to think George Bush is the Bees Knees, I would be rather worried about this piece of legislation. What is there to stop Bush from spying on corporations that are up for some kind of contract and the corporation favored by Bush needs information on the corporation not favored by Bush.
And, again to all the neoCON trolls out there. Do you really want to give this kind of power to a Democratic President?
Not that I expect an answer from them since all they are here for is to throw sh1t on the floor for us to step in.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:41 amit will take years to fix the repuke screwups, especially since the repigs are still hard at work obstructing justice. this will turn little by little as the dems gain unbeatable majorities over the next several cycles, and as we liberals throw out the spineless fellators in the Blue Dog Repuke Lite caucuses.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:43 am“Terror law puts Britons at risk of surveillance by US agents”
The new law puts anyone in the world at risk of surveillance by US Agents. This is just another nail in the coffin of the World’s view of the United States. I remember a recent poll that shows that people outside the United States find us to be a bigger terror threat than the so-called “terrorists”.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:44 amhow did you guys let this pussy lead the Senate? And now you guys are going to nominate an entirely unelectable person like Hillary, and lose the presidency again.
Comment by A
How did you guys elect a President like George Bush who has totally destroyed this great country in six short years. How did you guys allow George Bush the unprecedented power that he has. How did you guys assist in bankrupting the United States Government. How did you guys elect a President and participate in causing the deaths of over 3,600 soldiers? I could go on, but everyone here knows what you guys are responsible for.
I do agree that the Democrats in Congress are guilty of aiding and abetting King George, but you guys are mostly responsible for the mess this country is in. I can guarantee you that if King George had not stolen the 2000 election, it would be a much better world we would be living in. Al Gore would not have ignored a PTB telling him that “Osama Bin Laden is determined to strike in the US using airplanes”.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:52 amany reason you can think of for feinstein to be re-elected? anyone?
August 19th, 2007 at 11:53 am“Oh noes! God forbid we convict and electrocute traitors like Padilla!”
Oh noes! God forbid we convict and electrocute traitors like Karl Rove, et al, who outed an under cover CIA agent and her cover company, thereby destroying a counter proliferation program aimed at obtaining knowledge of Iran’s nuclear ambitions, and also exposing the remainder of the CIA agents under the cover company Brewster Jennings to possible assassination.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:57 am“Are you going to use the same logic on liberal attempts to circumvent the electoral college?
Comment by m12″
Oh the Wise One. How are the Democrats going to circumvent the electoral college?
August 19th, 2007 at 11:59 amThese idiot trolls will be screaming the loudest and longest, if they ever discover the government spied on THEM.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:59 am“Maryland is poised to become the first state to agree to bypass the electoral college and effectively elect U.S. presidents by national popular vote under legislation moving briskly toward the desk of Gov. Martin O’Malley (D).”
So, mommy12. You are saying that states voting to go by the popular vote rather than the electoral college is “circumventing the electoral college”? What happened to our democratic system where states are allowed to pass laws? If the Democrats proposed doing away with the Electoral College as a constitutional amendment, would you consider that “circumventing” the electoral college?
Sorry mommy12, your fear is showing. You and your ilk know that if we go to a popular election, the Republicans will become the permanent minority party because the power of the small “christian” states will be taken away. I for one am all for it. It’s about time that states like Iowa and New Hampshire are relieved of the power they have over our politics. They contribute very little to this nation so why should they have more power than the larger states that, in essence, support these smaller mid-western states? And, the Electoral College makes a lie out of the concept of “one man one vote”.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:05 pmThese idiot trolls will be screaming the loudest and longest, if they ever discover the government spied on THEM.
Comment by Zooey — August 19, 2007 @ 11:59 am
But, Zooey, they are the ones who like to tell us, “If you’ve done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.” Of course, that’s the same line of crap King George III (of England, not the current president of the US) used to justify invasion of privacy. And, naturally, it doesn’t apply to them, especially when it comes to testifying under oath. They aren’t resisting tesifying under oath out of any principle of Executive Privilege; they’re resisting because they know they’ve broken the law and they don’t want to get caught at it, nor risk compounding the problem by lying further (which they can’t seem to stop doing.) If they’ve done nothing wrong, then apply their own standards to themselves and turn over the documents requested by the investigating committees.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:06 pm“Barak Obama did not know what a trailer hitch was. This guy is so out of it. He’s been living in a bubble too long.”
Oh no! He doesn’t know what a trailer hitch is. That means that he has never attended a Monster Truck Show or a Nascar event. The horror of having a President who doesn’t know what a trailer hitch is.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:08 pmTrolls, Trolls, everywhere,
and not a thought to think.
47, I agree about the troll problem. It’s prevalent, even on registered sites. The 30% crowd does more than 30% of the posts on progressive sites.
What I don’t care for is TP’s proclivity for censoring my posts.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:10 pmAnd, the Electoral College makes a lie out of the concept of “one man one voteâ€.
Who made up this concept?
So, mommy12. You are saying that states voting to go by the popular vote rather than the electoral college is “circumventing the electoral college� What happened to our democratic system where states are allowed to pass laws? If the Democrats proposed doing away with the Electoral College as a constitutional amendment, would you consider that “circumventing†the electoral college?
When the Republican Congress passed laws through the democratic system, liberals weren’t so happy about it……
When state after state amended their Constitution to forbid homo marraige, liberals weren’t so happy about it…….
August 19th, 2007 at 12:10 pmIf the Democrats proposed doing away with the Electoral College as a constitutional amendment, would you consider that “circumventing†the electoral college?
That isn’t what they’re doing, is it? You complain about George Bush making end runs around the 4th Amendment while Maryland Democrats make end runs around the electoral college!
August 19th, 2007 at 12:11 pmOh noes! God forbid we convict and electrocute traitors like Karl Rove, et al, who outed an under cover CIA agent and her cover company, thereby destroying a counter proliferation program aimed at obtaining knowledge of Iran’s nuclear ambitions, and also exposing the remainder of the CIA agents under the cover company Brewster Jennings to possible assassination.
Tell you what, Bilbo. Fry Padilla first, then we can talk about charging Rove of any phantom crimes you want.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:12 pm“That isn’t what they’re doing, is it? You complain about George Bush making end runs around the 4th Amendment while Maryland Democrats make end runs around the electoral college!
Comment by m12″
So, then, you are saying that the people should not be allowed to have any say in how their government is run? Because calling the public voting on changing our Electoral system “circumventing”, you are saying that anything the public votes on would be “circumventing”.
Are you really comfortable living in an era where “we the people” no longer have any rights and are subject to the dictates of our King?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:16 pmI don’t know if this has been pointed out already, but absolutely nothing in the constitution dictates how a state may award its electoral votes. I forget right now which ones they are, but I believe that two states already do split their electoral votes. And nothing prevents an elector (the people you actually elect) from casting their electoral vote against the wishes of the voters.
But this thread is about the new warrantless wiretapping law that, in Congress’s haste to kiss up to Bush, ended up giving more power to the president than he asked for. Now, Congress does have the authority to decide what the Judiciary may review, but I think it’s an interesting question as to whether the Congress can, by legislation alone, deny you your right to challenge a violation your Fourth Amendment rights. (Interesting if you’re not a victim of it; pure hell if you are.)
August 19th, 2007 at 12:18 pmOh noes! God forbid we convict and electrocute traitors like Padilla!
OR traitors like Bush, Rove, Cheney, Libby, etc.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:19 pmSo, then, you are saying that the people should not be allowed to have any say in how their government is run? Because calling the public voting on changing our Electoral system “circumventingâ€, you are saying that anything the public votes on would be “circumventingâ€.
We do, through our Congress, which passed Patriot Act I, Patriot Act II, the MCA of 2006, and the recent bill.
Perhaps you want to live in an era where King bilbobaggins always gets his way regardless of what the public thinks.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:19 pm“When state after state amended their Constitution to forbid homo marraige, liberals weren’t so happy about it…….
Comment by m12″
You are right Mommy 12, they weren’t happy about it. That is their right. But, you didn’t hear them saying that the right to vote on matters like that should be taken away from “we the people”.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:20 pmBut this thread is about the new warrantless wiretapping law that, in Congress’s haste to kiss up to Bush, ended up giving more power to the president than he asked for. Now, Congress does have the authority to decide what the Judiciary may review, but I think it’s an interesting question as to whether the Congress can, by legislation alone, deny you your right to challenge a violation your Fourth Amendment rights. (Interesting if you’re not a victim of it; pure hell if you are.)
Nobody who has brought a lawsuit has shown any grounds that demonstrate such violation. It’s already been dismissed in court.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:21 pmAnd nothing prevents an elector (the people you actually elect) from casting their electoral vote against the wishes of the voters.
State laws do.
And why is it Republicans are targeting Blue states like California to split their electoral college votes, and not the Red states?
Apportioned electora votes in States that vote Democratic, and winner take all in States that vote Republican. Sounds like a good way to create permanent Republican rule.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:21 pm“If the Democrats proposed doing away with the Electoral College as a constitutional amendment, would you consider that “circumventing†the electoral college?
That isn’t what they’re doing, is it? You complain about George Bush making end runs around the 4th Amendment while Maryland Democrats make end runs around the electoral college!”
So tell me mommy12. If it was the Republicans who were encouraging states to do away with the electoral college or who introduced a constitutional amendment to go to a popular vote, would you consider it “circumventing” the electoral college?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:22 pm“Nobody who has brought a lawsuit has shown any grounds that demonstrate such violation. It’s already been dismissed in court.
Comment by m12″
You know, mommy12, that you have absolutely zero ability to use critical thinking skills. Tell me how anyone could “show grounds”, i.e. “prove” that they had been spied on, when the whole program is top secret and no one, even Congress, has the right to see what they are doing. That’s what is commonly called gaming the system.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:24 pmYou are right Mommy 12, they weren’t happy about it. That is their right. But, you didn’t hear them saying that the right to vote on matters like that should be taken away from “we the peopleâ€.
Really? Because there are judges across the courts doing just that. Kinda like this:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=7f7342bb-18fe-4704-bf96-0e894f058a62
Oh, and remember that Carnegie Mellon professor who wanted to cirminalize and jail the GOP?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:24 pm“Apportioned electora votes in States that vote Democratic, and winner take all in States that vote Republican. Sounds like a good way to create permanent Republican rule.”
And if that’s not “gaming the system” I don’t know what is. But mommy12 would say that they are not “circumventing” the electoral college system, and I would say that they are prostituting the electoral college system.
So, mommy12, why are you so scared of having our elections go on the popular vote, allowing each American a say in who our next President will be?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:26 pmState laws do.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — August 19, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
Technically, they don’t. You can make an elector pledge to vote for a candidate, and you can punish him afterwards if he/she doesn’t vote as pledged, but you can’t invalidate his vote.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:26 pmSo far, the Supreme Court has found a way to hear cases where Congress has tried to strip jurisdiction from Constitutional questions. The basic premise is it is unconstitutional to legislate away a Constitutional right, thus it is unconstitutional to strip jurisdiction from Constitutional questions.
Time will tell if the Roberts court will follow that line of thinking, or will allow the government to neuter the courts.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:27 pmYou know, mommy12, that you have absolutely zero ability to use critical thinking skills. Tell me how anyone could “show groundsâ€, i.e. “prove†that they had been spied on, when the whole program is top secret and no one, even Congress, has the right to see what they are doing. That’s what is commonly called gaming the system.
If they don’t have a case, get out of the courts!
August 19th, 2007 at 12:27 pmSo, mommy12, why are you so scared of having our elections go on the popular vote, allowing each American a say in who our next President will be?
They already do have a say. The electoral college serves the same purpose as the Senate, namely, that the idiot mob doesn’t get out of control.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pm“We do, through our Congress, which passed Patriot Act I, Patriot Act II, the MCA of 2006, and the recent bill.
Perhaps you want to live in an era where King bilbobaggins always gets his way regardless of what the public thinks.
Comment by m12″
Congress is not “we the people”. They are elected to do our bidding, but frequently they bow to the corporate interests rather than the people’s interests. And it was the Republican controlled congress that passed all those bills except for the recent NSA bill. So, do you think that the over 50% of this country that are either Democrat or Independent had their interests represented?
And, right now, we live in a country where King George always gets his way regardless of what the public thinks.
Bilbobaggins is totally anti King. I do not believe that any one person should have that kind of power in this country. Personally I am more in favor of a parliamentary form of government than our current form of government. Parliamentary forms of government are more representative of the people’s right than our form of government is.
Anyway, you haven’t answered my question. Why are you so afraid of electing our representatives based on popular vote?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:30 pm“They already do have a say. The electoral college serves the same purpose as the Senate, namely, that the idiot mob doesn’t get out of control.
Comment by m12″
Wow, mommy12 thinks that the people of the United States of America are an “idiot mob” and need to be controlled. Sounds a lot like a totalitarian form of government to me. It’s certainly not a Democratic form of government.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:32 pmCongress is not “we the peopleâ€. They are elected to do our bidding, but frequently they bow to the corporate interests rather than the people’s interests. And it was the Republican controlled congress that passed all those bills except for the recent NSA bill. So, do you think that the over 50% of this country that are either Democrat or Independent had their interests represented?
Absolutely; after all, a vast majority of Democrats voted for the Patriot Acts, and a sizable number voted for the MCA.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pm“If they don’t have a case, get out of the courts!
Comment by m12″
Think mommy12, think. Use what little gray matter you have up there. How can they have a case when they are not allowed to see whether or not they are being spied on? How can anyone ever have a case? For all you know, you are being spied on. And I am willing to bet if you somehow found out your government was spying on you, you would squeal like a greased pig.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:34 pmIf they’ve done nothing wrong, then apply their own standards to themselves and turn over the documents requested by the investigating committees.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — August 19, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Uh huh….let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin…. :D
August 19th, 2007 at 12:34 pmUse what little gray matter you have up there. How can they have a case when they are not allowed to see whether or not they are being spied on? How can anyone ever have a case?
If nobody can ever have a case, then there is nothing at all wrong with the program. You seem to want to dodge your precious due process of law.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:37 pmWow, mommy12 thinks that the people of the United States of America are an “idiot mob†and need to be controlled. Sounds a lot like a totalitarian form of government to me. It’s certainly not a Democratic form of government.
A good number are. We have far too many unproductives who don’t pay a cent in income taxes but hold a huge say in how others’ tax dollars are spent.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:38 pmI misspoke earlier. The process for invalidating an elector’s vote is here:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/3/chapters/1/sections/section_15.html
It’s federal law, not state law.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pm“If nobody can ever have a case, then there is nothing at all wrong with the program. You seem to want to dodge your precious due process of law.
Comment by m12″
You know mommy12, you are terminally stupid. And, you never answered my question about, if it were the Republicans who were trying to change the system to the popular vote, would you be complaining. And, why are you so afraid of the popular vote, other than the fact that you think the American public is a “mob”. I know why you are afraid of the popular vote. It is because if we had a popular vote in this country the Republicans would never win another election.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pmIf nobody can ever have a case, then there is nothing at all wrong with the program. You seem to want to dodge your precious due process of law.
Comment by m12 — August 19, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
Wow. Just…..wow.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:42 pmYou seem to want to dodge your precious due process of law.
Actually, the Bush TRAITOR WAR CRIMINALS do.
First of MANY examples is Scooter Libby.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:42 pmBrilliant!
Pass a law to suspend the Constitution and simultaneously take away Judicial Review of that law. No one can challenge the law; there is nothing at all wrong with the program.
Why pass a law? Why not just do it with an Executive Order?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:44 pm“A good number are. We have far too many unproductives who don’t pay a cent in income taxes but hold a huge say in how others’ tax dollars are spent.
Comment by m12″
“who don’t pay a cent in income taxes but hold a huge say in how others’ tax dollars are spent.” Like most of the corporations in this country?
I love how you equate “unproductive” with being poor. I suppose you consider the Janitor who cleans the executive’s office for $6.00 an hour as being “unproductive”.
So, you are saying that if someone is poor because they can only find a job paying $6.00 an hour, they should not be allowed to vote? They are working 40 hours and frequently more, making $6.00 an hour and they will end up in not paying income taxes because of their poverty. And you want to deny them the right to vote. Wow mommy12, you are a real patriotic American.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:45 pmTime will tell if the Roberts court will follow that line of thinking, or will allow the government to neuter the courts.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — August 19, 2007 @ 12:27 pm
First, I should correct myself. I realized after I posted the comment that State Laws can prevent an elector (through intimidation of fines or imprisonment, like most laws do) from voting the way they want to. I meant to say that nothing in the constotution stipulates how they must vote. Constitutionally, a state can do what it wants with its electoral votes.
As to the Roberts court upholding the principle that a law that takes away your constitutional rights is automatically reviewable by the courts, this is what I fear. That people like Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and Thomas (who Scalia has said “Does not believe in stare decisis”) would side with the Republicans and not the constitution.
If they allow the Congress to neuter the courts (as you eloquently put it), they could then pass a law that says, “The Bill of Rights is null and void, and the courts have no jurisdiction to rule on the constitutionality of this law.”) I know there was a case (Ex Parte McCardle) when the Congress, knowing that the Supreme Court would rule a law they passed unconstitutional, passed another law removing their jurisdiction over the issue. (A Habeas Corpus case, we should note.)
Art III, Sec 2. “…the supreme court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.” So they can legislatively take away your constitutional rights. And I believe the “and fact” part means that the Congress can decide that if x has happened, then y can be considered to have happened, too. (If you’re found to be carrying around a lot of money, then you are trying to buy drugs with it.)
August 19th, 2007 at 12:46 pm“If nobody can ever have a case, then there is nothing at all wrong with the program. You seem to want to dodge your precious due process of law.
Comment by m12 — August 19, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
Wow. Just…..wow.
Comment by Rose Tyler”
I know. His ignorance is stunning, isn’t it.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:46 pmAnother is Bush and Cheney REFUSING TO TESTIFY UNDER OATH.
And not permitting Rove of Miers to testify UNDER OATH, in Contempt of Congress.
Or our ATTORNEY GENERAL flat out LYING to Congress…
So much for YOUR “due process of ‘law’”.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:47 pmI know. His ignorance is stunning, isn’t it.
Comment by bilbobaggins — August 19, 2007 @ 12:46 pm
I doubt he understands the kind of country he would live in, if all his wishes came true.
I’ve always thought m12 was some sort of malfunctioning robot, but now I realize I owe the broken robots an apology.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:49 pmWow. Just…..wow.
Comment by Rose Tylerâ€
I know. His ignorance is stunning, isn’t it.
Comment by bilbobaggins — August 19, 2007 @ 12:46 pm”
More than that, it’s an indictment of our entire education system that someone could go through life so ignorant of what makes being a citizen of this country different from other countries.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:52 pmmommy12 – one last time.
What would you say if it was the Republicans who were trying to pass laws to do away with the Electoral College system?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:54 pmI guess mommy12 left the building. It was getting a little hot in here and he was running out of talking points. What a chicken.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:57 pmThe new FISA legislation was created help fight terrorists and al-Quieada. If you don’t have anything to hid, what are you worry about?
August 19th, 2007 at 1:11 pm“The new FISA legislation was created help fight terrorists and al-Quieada. If you don’t have anything to hid, what are you worry about?
Comment by Liberator “
The same can be said for George Bush. If he has nothing to hide, then why is he hiding behind Executive Privilege, stretching it to claiming EP in the Pat Tillman case?
Why do you re-tards have such a double standard?
August 19th, 2007 at 1:16 pmThe new FISA legislation was created help fight terrorists and al-Quieada. If you don’t have anything to hid, what are you worry about?
Comment by Liberator — August 19, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
The problem, which you seem unable to grasp, is that the law was written in such a way that it could be applied to non-terrorists and non-al Qaeda, and we have only the “good word” of this administration (which has amply demonstrated a reckless disregard for the truth) that they will not apply it otherwise. And if they do, you’re screwed because they won’t let a court review it. You must really hate your constitutional freedoms to be so willing to give them all up. How un-American of you.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:17 pmYou’re making an assumption not based on fact. For all we know, m12 was educated in a private school, or was home schooled.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:18 pmIf you don’t have anything to hid [sic], what are you worry [sic] about?
Comment by Liberator — August 19, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
That these same laws be used against those who voice political dissent. Such has been the history of man-unkind.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:19 pmTell me, all you liberals, what freedoms are YOU losing?
August 19th, 2007 at 1:20 pmThat these same laws be used against those who voice political dissent…
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — August 19, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
——–
Then I s’pose you don’t mind if I voice political dissent, and say:
“God Bless George Duby’Bush! God Bless America! and punch a hippy to fight terr’r!”
August 19th, 2007 at 1:23 pm“Tell me, all you liberals, what freedoms are YOU losing?
Comment by Liberator”
The freedom to not be spied upon by my government. You know, that pesky 4th amendment.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:27 pm“Then I s’pose you don’t mind if I voice political dissent, and say:
“God Bless George Duby’Bush! God Bless America! and punch a hippy to fight terr’r!â€
You have every right in the world to express your opinions. You DO NOT have the right to advocate violence any more than you have the right to yell “fire” in a crowded theater.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:28 pmLiberals don’t like FISA. FISA protects America! Terr’rists don’t like America. Terrorists don’t like FISA.
Liberals = Terrrorists
August 19th, 2007 at 1:29 pmConservatives don’t like the constitution. The constitution protects Americans! Terrorists don’t like America. Terrorists don’t like the constitution.
Conservatives = Terrorists
Comment by Liberator — August 19, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
There, this time I fixed it for ya.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:36 pmTerrorists don’t give a rip about FISA. If they’re smart enough to know about it, they’re smart enough to not use electronic communications.
These wiretapping laws give us the illusion of fighting terrorism while giving the government the power to spy on dissidents.
As an attorney, I am acutely aware of the rights I have lost. Can you make the same claim?
August 19th, 2007 at 1:39 pmLiberals are so hypocritical. When it comes to government transparency, ch’all are the first ones to b!tch and moan about a few deleted e-mails. But when the table is turned and it comes to the private information of suspected terrorists, you say it is protected!
August 19th, 2007 at 1:40 pmSee how easy it is to lable someone a “terrorist”?
August 19th, 2007 at 1:42 pmTerrorists don’t give a rip about FISA. If they’re smart enough to know about it, they’re smart enough to not use electronic communications.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — August 19, 2007 @ 1:39 pm
As I recall, Osama bin Laden was using a satellite phone to communicate with his “soldiers” until Atty Gen John Ashcroft publicly revealed that we were monitoring his calls. bin laden immediately stopped using a satellite phone to communicate.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:43 pmLiberator, Liberals like the freedom the Constitution provides, the freedom not to be spied on by their govt & treated as a terrorist. Republicans don’t care about the erosion of their freedom. Therefore Republicans don’t like freedom. According to GWB terrorists don’t like U.S. freedom either. Therefore Republicans = Terrorists.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:43 pmsorry: lable=label
August 19th, 2007 at 1:43 pmLiberator; Please post a picture of you in your brown-shirt costume. You f*cking Nazi.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:45 pmBack on topic: On the FISA law allowing physical searches without without court-approved warrants;
August 19th, 2007 at 1:48 pmPOLICE STATE IS HERE. SEIG HEIL!!!
Are you dopey liberals afraid of something?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:00 pm“ch’all”
whatever is that a contraction of?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:01 pm?
“These idiot trolls will be screaming the loudest and longest, if they ever discover the government spied on THEM.
Comment by Zooey — August 19, 2007″
Who did they spy on? Be specific.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:01 pm“that’s the same line of crap King George III (of England, not the current president of the US) used to justify invasion of privacy.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — August 19, 2007″
How did he invade privacy?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:03 pmWhen it comes to government transparency, ch’all are the first ones to b!tch and moan about a few deleted e-mails. But when the table is turned and it comes to the private information of suspected terrorists, you say it is protected!
Comment by Liberator — August 19, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
It’s not “a few deleted e-mails” that has us upset, it’s that they were evidence of a crime, and it was also a crime to delete them. (If they were on government servers it was illegal to delete them, and of they were on RNC servers it was illegal to have them there.)
And it’s not the “private information of suspected terrorists” that we say is protected, it’s the private information of completely innocent people that is protected.
Mischaracterizing what your opponents say is not how you win an argument.
But I’m clearly wasting my time on you as you are either willfully ignorant or mentally incapable of having a rational discussion. Good luck in GITMO.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:05 pm“Liberator; Please post a picture of you in your brown-shirt costume. You f*cking Nazi.
Comment by Uncle Ho — August 19, 2007″
Ho, is there no intelligence between those ears? All you can do is curse and call people names? Say something that your mother would be proud of for once.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:07 pm“it’s the private information of completely innocent people that is protected.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — August 19, 2007″
Innocent? Who?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:08 pm“ch’allâ€
whatever is that a contraction of?
?
Comment by katy — August 19, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
That’s how people talk down che’a!
August 19th, 2007 at 2:09 pm“it’s that they were evidence of a crime
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — August 19, 2007″
Really? Which one?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:10 pmit’s that they were evidence of a crime
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — August 19, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
What crime?
and
How do you know?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:10 pmmichael; me? calling names? check out what Liberator calls liberals-terrorists. So SHUT YOUR F*CKING HOLE!
August 19th, 2007 at 2:18 pm“How do you know?
Comment by Liberator — August 19, 2007″
Don’t expect an intelligent answer from wayne or zooey. But if you challenge wayne enough, he usually picks up his toys and goes running home to mommy.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:19 pm“So SHUT YOUR F*CKING HOLE!
Comment by Uncle Ho — August 19, 2007″
I rest my case.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:20 pmThe michael troll feels very safe picking fights with dust bunnies on a half-dead thread.
**yawn**
August 19th, 2007 at 2:42 pmSo SHUT YOUR F*CKING HOLE!
Comment by Uncle Ho
I rest my case.
Comment by ?michael?
hey! it worked!
August 19th, 2007 at 3:06 pmthank you, uncle ho!
Pass a law to suspend the Constitution and simultaneously take away Judicial Review of that law. No one can challenge the law; there is nothing at all wrong with the program.
You can challenge the law in the same fashion that you challenge anything. Show your standing.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:18 pm“who don’t pay a cent in income taxes but hold a huge say in how others’ tax dollars are spent.†Like most of the corporations in this country?
Corporations can’t vote, can they?
August 19th, 2007 at 5:19 pmAnd, why are you so afraid of the popular vote, other than the fact that you think the American public is a “mobâ€. I know why you are afraid of the popular vote. It is because if we had a popular vote in this country the Republicans would never win another election.
Gee. Because its not like Reagan in 80, Reagan in 84, Bush in 88, and Bush in 04 got a majority of the popular vote…….
August 19th, 2007 at 5:22 pmThe same can be said for George Bush. If he has nothing to hide, then why is he hiding behind Executive Privilege, stretching it to claiming EP in the Pat Tillman case?
He’s not hiding. You can have whatever info you wish for in 2009.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:24 pmI love how you equate “unproductive†with being poor. I suppose you consider the Janitor who cleans the executive’s office for $6.00 an hour as being “unproductiveâ€.
They’re not even the worst offenders…check out the welfare queens collecting checks and the college NARAL idealistic zealots who haven’t lifted a finger in their lifetime.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:30 pmTerrorists don’t give a rip about FISA. If they’re smart enough to know about it, they’re smart enough to not use electronic communications.
In which case they are greatly crippled and the NSA programs have been a success.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:37 pmSo far Bush has presented no actual proof that the domestic spying program has worked.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:46 pmIf he did, Probus, would you support the program?
August 19th, 2007 at 5:48 pmKaty; thank you. compliments are always welcome.
August 19th, 2007 at 6:11 pmOur freedoms are disappearing fast, which means the terrorists have won. Time to bring the troops home!
August 19th, 2007 at 10:18 pmTerrorists don’t give a rip about FISA. If they’re smart enough to know about it, they’re smart enough to not use electronic communications.
In which case they are greatly crippled and the NSA programs have been a success.
Comment by m12
Huh, wouldn’t that be a good reason to publicize the program? I think you fell into somebodies trap.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:57 pmI’m probably fun to spy on, I should get paid.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:20 pmSo far Bush has presented no actual proof that the domestic spying program has worked.
Comment by Probus — August 19, 2007 @ 5:46 pm
Chimpy doesn’t have to present proof of anything. He has an office building full of writers ready to lie for him at a moment’s notice. Remember the thing about Saddam trying to buy yellowcake?
August 20th, 2007 at 1:05 amEducation Secretary Rod Paige called the National Education Association a “terrorist organization†Monday as he argued that the country’s largest teachers union often acts at odds with the wishes of rank-and-file teachers regarding school standards and accountability. – Monday, February 23, 2004
See how easy it is to lable someone a “terrorist�
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — August 19, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Wow–now under the new rules, Chimpy can order the Black Ops folks to assassinate the leadership of the NEA, and strike another blow for NeoCon Values.
August 20th, 2007 at 1:09 amAND WHICH COUNTRY, AT LEAST UP TO AND INCLUDING the 2001 WTC attacks HAS THE CIA CONTRACT AS WELL AS THE EQUIPMENT TO MONITOR AMERICAN PHONE CALLS?
ISRAEL.
http://www.totse.com/en/politics/foreign_military_intelligence_agencies/168266.html
August 20th, 2007 at 1:23 am