Is The Prospect Of Withdrawal Responsible For The Modest Security Gains In Iraq?
Is The Prospect Of Withdrawal Responsible For The Modest Security Gains In Iraq?
Yesterday, the National Intelligence Estimate reported “measurable but uneven improvements” in the security situation in Iraq. While the White House has rushed to suggest that the modest gains were the result of escalation, the improvement can more plausibly be the product of Iraqi expectations of a U.S. withdrawal. (Some gains have also resulted because large numbers of Iraqis have fled their homes and ethnic cleansing has taken place.)
Much of the touted security gains have come in the Anbar province, a region that was not the target of Bush’s escalation. In fact, progress in Anbar pre-dated the surge and occurred while troop numbers were being reduced in the region.
The NIE states that local security arrangements such as those in Anbar province are being formed in response to imminent U.S. withdrawal, and that these “bottom up” security initiatives “represent the best prospect for improved security over the next six to 12 months”:
“[F]earing a Coalition withdrawal, some tribal elements and Sunni groups probably will continue to seek accommodation with the Coalition to strengthen themselves for a post- Coalition security environment” […]
“The IC assesses that the emergence of ‘bottom-up’ security initiatives, principally among Sunni Arabs and focused on combating AQI, represent the best prospect for improved security over the next six to 12 months, but we judge these initiatives will only translate into widespread political accommodation and enduring stability if the Iraqi Government accepts and supports them.”
In April, Defense Secretary Robert Gates acknowledged, “The debate in Congress…has been helpful in demonstrating to the Iraqis that American patience is limited.” It appears that the Iraqi expectation of a U.S. troop reduction has actually produced tangible progress.
The New York Times reported that Sunnis’ perception of an impending withdrawal changed their attitudes. “Many Sunnis, for their part, are less inclined to see the soldiers as occupiers now that it is clear that American troop reductions are all but inevitable, and they are more concerned with strengthening their ability to fend off threats from Sunni jihadists and Shiite militias,” the Times wrote in July. In fact, leading Sunnis continue to demand a timetable for withdrawal.
Gareth Porter, writing for Inter Press Service, reported recently, “The apparent success of Petraeus’s shift from relying on U.S. military force to relying on Sunni troops to take care of al Qaeda could be used as an argument against continuation of the U.S. military presence in Anbar.” He added:
Recognition that there is a far more effective alternative to U.S. military operations to reduce al Qaeda’s influence would be a major blow to George W. Bush’s argument against a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops, which has relied increasingly on the threat of an al Qaeda haven in Iraq.
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127 Responses to “Is The Prospect Of Withdrawal Responsible For The Modest Security Gains In Iraq?”
Wow, you mean actually holding the Iraqi’s accountable might make them do the things they need to do to become a successful nation? No wonder we’re not willing to try it
August 24th, 2007 at 4:51 pmoh oh. More liberal facts. Righties will go ballistic if it’s discovered, as we on the left have known all along, that if you stop blowing up families they won’t be so angry. Of course, this cuts into the war profiteers take, so they will scream bloody murder, as profits are far more important to them than peoples’ lives.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:52 pmIs The Prospect Of Withdrawal Responsible For The Modest Security Gains In Iraq?
Oh, I know this one!
The answer is:
Hell NO!!!
August 24th, 2007 at 4:53 pm.
Nice try.
.
Waitaminnit — the reduction of violence in the Anbar province, as noted by HC and others, is due to a REDUCTION of troops in the area???? Why then, are the various media so quick to spin the observation of “Anbar province improvement” as “the surge is working”???
I guess they mean it works when we “surge” OUTTA there…
August 24th, 2007 at 4:54 pmThe crux of this Toilet Paper “article” is just for the birds: essentially, the radicalized progressive thought disorder says that the increasing security success in Iraq (ALL thanks to Bush’s surge!) is only because the Iraqis are scared of a US military withdrawal. Therefore, the Iraqis, especially the Sunnis, are now feeling “motivated” to fight the terrorists themselves. This mentally ill misconception of the surge’s success in Iraq could only come from a desperate, libtarded/progtarded mind which is too envious to admit the military success that is Bush’s surge, and also wants an ideological pullout from Iraq. To anyone not indoctrinated by prog BS, they know the Sunnis are fighting Al-Qaeda increasingly now because they figured out (those slow-witted Arabs) that Al-Qaeda are extremists who are even worse than the Sunni Baathists. Therefore, since the enemy of my enemy is my friend, the Sunnis have begun to cooperate more. This wouldn’t have happened without Bush’s surge.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:54 pmRe-tards biggest fear is that the U.S. will withdraw from Iraq and the killing will stop.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:56 pmThis is exactly why we’re going to end up sending more troops, ESPECIALLY to Anbar. Otherwise, there ’s no excuse for us to be there it seems. And it’ll be a massive blow to Bush’s ‘War is always the First Option’ strategy.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:58 pmThis wouldn’t have happened without Bush’s surge.
Comment by Progressivesarejustlikelibtards — August 24, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
None of this would have happened if Bush had not invaded Iraq. So, how’s the hunt for bin Laden going? We’re coming on six years from 9/11 and the best the Bush Admin can do is hope his health gives out.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:59 pmif you want to know exactly whats life like in Anbar then read this , all the Sunnis are prisoners in their own city and shot at night by snipers
Curfew-Bound Fallujah On The Boil Again
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/ hard_news/ archives/ iraq/ 000605.php#more
August 24th, 2007 at 4:59 pmFALLUJAH, Jun 27 (IPS) - Strict curfew and tight security measures have brought difficult living conditions and heightened tempers to residents of this besieged city.
The siege in this city located 60km west of Baghdad has entered its second month. There is little sign of any international attention to the plight of the city. Fallujah, which is largely sympathetic to the Iraqi resistance, was assaulted twice by the U.S. military in 2004.
“U.S. snipers on rooftops are enjoying themselves watching us walk around to find a bite of food for our families,” 55-year-old Hajji Mahmood told IPS. “They laugh at us and call us names. They should know Fallujah is still the same city that kicked them away three years ago.”
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/ hard_news/ archives/ iraq/ 000605.php#more
August 24th, 2007 at 5:01 pmThe answer is:
Hell NO!!!
.
Nice try.
.
Comment by Makarios — August 24, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
Once again, you prove your irrelevance and lack of a brain. Nice going. Your answer is WRONG, again, as usual. You’re always WRONG, every time out. You have never been right, because you’re always WRONG.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:04 pm“It is a temporary curfew and we hope it can soon end,” he told reporters in Baghdad last week. “We are looking into ways to let aid agencies enter Fallujah but it is too dangerous for the time being.”
these people are being starved of everything , beseiging cities is not winning in Anbar
August 24th, 2007 at 5:04 pmMakarios knows nothing. He stands behind a man that can’t stand behind his words.
Show me were Bush is holding Pakistan accountable for harboring OBL makarios.
You are a little neocongaroo. Hopping blindly along feeding on the lies of the missleader.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:08 pmOh, I know this one!
The answer is:
Hell NO!!!
.
Nice try.
.
Comment by Makarios — August 24, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
Ah, Mr Pee. How does this compare to “liberals can’t bother to support an argument, so they start a caption contest”?
If you weren’t such an idiot, this sort of hypocrisy would embarrass you.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:09 pmHey Progressivesarejustlikelibtards, are you actually pulling facts from out of other body openings than just your a*rse?
“Sunnis are fighting Al-Qaeda increasingly now because they figured out (those slow-witted Arabs) that Al-Qaeda are extremists who are even worse than the Sunni Baathists.”
Yuck, you show your extreme understanding of the situation. Thank you, kind sir.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:10 pmIs The Prospect Of Withdrawal Responsible For The Modest Security Gains In Iraq?
———————————————————————————–
You folks are completely delusional.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:13 pm1 million may protest your policies, but you can just ignore them. Throw protestors in jail for days. No matter. Two or three years later a court may find you guilty of suppressing people’s rights, but no one will care.
I shudder to think what monstrous politicians Bush’s successful ignoring of the public’s will, will inflict upon the US in the future, regardless of the party.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:14 pmComplexity has never been a strong point of the followers of this administration.
Read this Progressivesarejustlikelibtards: http://www.nytimes.com/ 2007/ 08/ 19/ opinion/ 19jayamaha.html
There are much greater dynamics at work than what you are being spoon fed.
You follow a fool.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:15 pmThey are censoring again
Another taboo topic
Don’t question the wisdom of TP topics
I suggested that this topic has not answer and is just meant to keep the children from discussing real issue. That we have no real difference between parties.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:15 pmGood Point Dermot. It’s a lose lose no matter what party is in power if we continue this path and ignore the need for coequal branches.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:17 pmMakarios knows nothing. He stands behind a man that can’t stand behind his words.
Show me were Bush is holding Pakistan accountable for harboring OBL makarios.
That bears repeating. He also can’t rise from the toilet to answer the question of why it’s not an embarrassment to the Republican party that none of the Iraq clusterf*ck architects (GWB, Cheney, Rove, Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Ashcroft, Abrams, Bolton etc) ever served in the military. Chickenhawks, every one of them.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:17 pmMy question to TP is, rather than ask rhetorical questions like this one, questions that have no answer
Why not ask bloggers - What would a candidate who represented the will of the people be saying?
August 24th, 2007 at 5:17 pmThis will result in Boosh’s bluff being called. The Iraqis can and would take care of their own security once we’re gone.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:17 pmBut we’d not be able to take care of their oil once we’re gone.
That’s the only reason Boosh won’t agree to any timetable, cause there can’t be one until the oil’s gone.
America wants to leave Iraq
August 24th, 2007 at 5:18 pmAmerica will leave Iraq
America cant leave Iraq ( because of 1 silly vain moron)
hellinabucket
For once i agree with you about coequal branches. But for that we need a court that respects the constitution. We don’t have that. We have a partisan court that plays up to the current game. But maybe we’ve always had that except that in the past, the court would eventually come around to public opinion. But now, they know they don’t have to. The public has successfully been removed from the government equation.
President + Congress + Courts = tyranny by the money guys and gals
August 24th, 2007 at 5:20 pmAmerica cant leave Iraq ( because of 1 silly vain moron)
Tobey Tall
I suspect that if HC were in the WH right now, we would not be leaving Iraq any time soon either. And I say that based on her voting pattern and her speeches.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:22 pmAmerica will spend billions more in Iraq. Even after the President shifted the goalposts again. Democracy is no longer a goal, a stable govt. is no longer a goal. But we’ll keep pumping money into the coffers of the privateers, mercs and corps profiting. This is what Bush wants. But he can’t stand behind providing healthcare to more children that need it in this country.
Where are the republican positions. Where are their morals.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:23 pmYou folks are completely delusional.
Comment by Ringo — August 24, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
yes, evidence and facts are the property of the delusional. You should be so lucky to be merely delusional, instead of willfully stupid.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:23 pmDermot - American liberties have been demolished with Padilla being held for 3-4 years and found guilty , that set a presidence, now it can be done to every American citizen
whats worse if Padilla loses in court about his treatment ie, torture - that will set another presidence and then whoevers in power at the time he loses , then torture can be done on any American citizen…….
there was a lot more to the Padilla case than meets the EYE
August 24th, 2007 at 5:24 pm“Once again, you prove your irrelevance and lack of a brain. Nice going. Your answer is WRONG, again, as usual. You’re always WRONG, every time out. You have never been right, because you’re always WRONG.
Comment by ronjazz — August 24, 2007 @ 5:04 pm”
More illuminating commentary by the inevitable progressive pundit known as ronjazz! What a symphony of brainpower!
You know why you are wrong, ronjazz? Because you are wrong! That’s what happens when you are wrong, you are wrong! That’s why you are wrong, because you are wrong, wrong, wrong! You are wrong, ronjazz, because you have been, are, and always will be wrong.
Why? Because you are wrong, that’s why. Nyaaa nyaa nyaa NYAA nyaa, nyaa!
August 24th, 2007 at 5:26 pmTop Stories…
•Hillary to Qaeda: Help Me Beat GOP, Halt Terror ‘Till 2009
•Warner: Show Qaeda U.S. Commitment Not Open-Ended
•Kerry Sues Bush Over Use of Vietnam Imagery
•CIA: U.S. Nearly Out of Americans to Blame for 9/11
•With Bloomberg Out, Candidates Vie to Woo His Supporter
August 24, 2007
Hillary to Qaeda: Help Me Beat GOP, Halt Terror ‘Till 2009
(2007-08-24) AL-AP— Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, convinced that a U.S. terror strike before the 2008 elections would help Republicans to hold the White House and recapture Congress, today called on al Qaeda to delay planned U.S. martyrdom operations until early 2009.
“I’m respectfully asking al Qaeda for a brief hiatus,†said Sen. Clinton, “until we can accomplish our shared goal of removing Republicans from power.â€
While Mrs. Clinton said that she’s “the best of the Democrats†to deal with the terror threat against the U.S., she added “it would be wiser for Usama bin Laden to wait and to deal with President Hillary Clinton and an army of attorneys, than to rush into action and be forced to deal with Bush and an army of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines.â€
August 24th, 2007 at 5:27 pmAmerica cant leave Iraq ( because of 1 silly vain moron)
Tobey Tall
I suspect that if HC were in the WH right now, we would not be leaving Iraq any time soon either. And I say that based on her voting pattern and her speeches.
I aggree , it looks like Hilary is as bad , But Iraq can ask the US to leave at any time ……………….. and it is coming
August 24th, 2007 at 5:29 pmOoooo, I’m going to trash this article even though I can’t refute the facts about the reduction in violence where there is NO SURGE. I’m merely going to roll around in some more Bush feces to embue my body with more of the scent of chimp while I throw my own feces and yell magic words like Progtard, Toilet Paper, Libtard, and BS. Oooook oooook, eeeeek, eeeeek. I have been rendered holy with the blessed scent of chimp.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:30 pmO.Bigfoot in mouth I see. I bet you win all the arguments with children.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:31 pmits hard to get a consecutive thread , with trolls plurping out shite between posts
August 24th, 2007 at 5:31 pmGallup did a poll of 552 veterans as to favorability/unfavorability of the top candidates in both parties:
+/- Net Ratio Sum 100-Sum
Rudy Giuliani 64-29 +35 2.20 93 7
John McCain 52-40 +12 1.30 92 8
Barack Obama 44-40 +4 1.10 84 16
John Edwards 43-44 -1 0.97 87 13
Fred Thompson 40-21 +19 1.90 61 39
Hillary Clinton 37-59 -22 0.62 96 4
Mitt Romney 33-29 +4 1.13 62 38
The +/- numbers are from the poll; everything to the right are things I computed from those numbers.
Don’t think they agree with Demo surrender.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:32 pmPlurp. Plurp.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:32 pmWhy? Because you are wrong, that’s why. Nyaaa nyaa nyaa NYAA nyaa, nyaa!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — August 24, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
Hold off on the sarcasm until you’ve got a little more history here. ronjazz maybe snapped but he was reacting to hundreds, if not thousands, of content-free comments by this particular troll.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:33 pm> But Iraq can ask the US to leave at any time
Suddenly…. A New Prime Minister!
August 24th, 2007 at 5:34 pmFunny Hillary is still polling better then Romney in that one. hehe
August 24th, 2007 at 5:35 pmOh, I know this one!
The answer is:
Hell NO!!!
.
Nice try.
.
Comment by Makarios — August 24, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
Spoken just like your idol, KKKarl - don’t discuss, don’t provide facts, just scream “Hell NO,” and reality just vanishes. The “nice try” denotes a real question that is too difficult or uncomfortable for the subject to answer. How Bush League.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:36 pmBush always does his speeches surrounded by geriatric people who cheer for him
1/ because they lived in Hitlers time and maybe understand his drivel
August 24th, 2007 at 5:37 pm2/ because a higher percentage have alzeimers and dont know what he’s on about
Actually she isn’t.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:37 pmMakarios spouted on another thread that Bush is holding Pakistan accountable but couldn’t provide a shred of evidence.
Makarios is a spineless gutter tripe.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:38 pmVeterans: “Rudy Giuliani 64-29 +35 2.20 93 7″
No problem. If Veterans can live with someone who has no clue that Amerikka is
actually Overlord Of the World At Large, so be it. Vote as you see fit.
Just don’t be surprised at the bubbling, perky fascism show that will follow.
And learn to speak Cantonese. Ya may need it in a hurry.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:38 pmActually, the evidence of the success of the surge is not limited to Anbar province. There is measurable, documented improvement in many areas.
This article does really twist theory and fact in a convoluted way, meant to again downplay U.S. military involvement in Iraq.
The truth is, our military cannot fail, only the politicians can fail our military.
You folks are really grasping at straws.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:39 pmDon’t think they agree with Demo surrender.
Comment by Frank J — August 24, 2007 @ 5:32 pm
The only number that really matters is the number of Americans willing to join the Military. This Spring, A troop reduction in Iraq will be Forced on Bush, because they don’t have the troops to sustain the Surge. And this leaves unanswered what we would do if a crisis developed somewhere else in the world.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:40 pmYou know why you are wrong, ronjazz? Because you are wrong! That’s what happens when you are wrong, you are wrong! That’s why you are wrong, because you are wrong, wrong, wrong! You are wrong, ronjazz, because you have been, are, and always will be wrong.
Why? Because you are wrong, that’s why. Nyaaa nyaa nyaa NYAA nyaa, nyaa!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — August 24, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
Good, p, another meltdown. Classic. A superb example of rightwing brainpower and debating skills. Thanks so much, we were all wondering when you would dissolve in a puddle of piss and tears.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:41 pmDon’t think they agree with Demo surrender.
Comment by Frank J — August 24, 2007 @ 5:32 pm
Pretty sure they weren’t sober, either. Was this survey done at the local VFW drunk tank?
August 24th, 2007 at 5:43 pmI can’t think of a bigger insult to American Troops, fallen Soldiers, or America, than the utter distortion of the truth which Think Progress is suggesting here.
The writers of this blog ought to be ashamed of themselves, and they ought to apologize to the families of our Soldiers.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:44 pmYour ignorance is only matched by your arogance O. Bigfoot. The military is being used in a manner that is not what they are intended to do. The logistical support needed to attempt what they are being asked to do is not being offered in the way of increased troop levels, better equipment, longer time out of theater and a more cohesive plan.
You don’t have a clue on what the “Plan” is because there isn’t any. Our soldiers and marines are the best trained in the world but they aren’t police (something republicans used to not want our service members to be) and they aren’t being allowed to do what soldiers are trained to do but the republican fearmongers can’t grasp this.
you follow a fool.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:46 pm> The truth is, our military cannot fail, only the politicians can fail our military.
This can be either interpreted as the current wingnut théorie-du-jour, i.e. the “Dolchstosslegende” of Weimar Republic wingnuts, or else a complete cluelessness that limited war is just a continuation of politics with barbaric means. Either way, you IQ again howers in the low 50. Have a cookie.
Asymmetric actors may also choose to disregard the concept of victory and defeat, illustrated in the conversation between an American and a North Vietnamese officer, Colonel Harry Summers and Colonel Tu, in Hanoi on 25 April 1975: “You know you never defeated us in the field,” said Summers. “That may be true,” replied Tu, “but it is also irrelevant.”
http://www.ndu.edu/ inss/ McNair/ mcnair62/ Ch02.html
August 24th, 2007 at 5:48 pmThe truth is, our military cannot fail, only the politicians can fail our military.
You folks are really grasping at straws.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — August 24, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
the truth is, our military has failed several times since WW2. the truth is, any military will fail in this situation, as the British failed right here, as the Russians failed in Afghanistan, as the American military failed so miserably in Viet Nam. The right wing wasn’t happy with only 58,000 deaths of young Americans for no good reason, and the proof is in the pudding. No “Dominoes” fell, and Viet Nam is now a trading partner. how many times do wingnuts have to be wrong before they learn something? bigmouth is mentally challenged, that’s clear, as Bush is. these massive egos, unconstrained by a moral center, aren’t happy unless thousands of people are dying for no reason. they are very sick individuals. it’s a good thing they’re in the tiny minority, although they should be in padded cells.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:48 pmThe truth is, our military cannot fail, only the politicians can fail our military.
You folks are really grasping at straws.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — August 24, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
What are they supposed to be succeeding in doing? The Iraqis cannot even create a functioning, sustainable government. You apparently would leave American troops on the ground for as many years or decades as this will take, without any actual plan for achieving it (other than “we can’t leave now”) and with absolutely no historical precedent to demonstrate that it is even possible.
It’s pretty funny that a supporter of the occupation should castigate others as “grasping at straws” when it’s clear that you’re the one doing so.
Ah, let’s just give it another six months and see what happens. And then another six months. And another . . . eventually all the Iraqis will be dead and it will be a moot issue.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:50 pmand they ought to apologize to the families of our Soldiers.
Comment by blackball — August 24, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
Bush’s job, and he’s running away, as usual. he’s such a pussy coward, as are his chickenhawk followers.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:51 pmbigmouth proffers genocide as the solution to Bush’s sin of mass murder and oil theft. We know where he’s coming from now. Just another barbarian savage.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:52 pmoh oh. More liberal facts. Righties will go ballistic if it’s discovered, as we on the left have known all along, that if you stop blowing up families they won’t be so angry. Of course, this cuts into the war profiteers take, so they will scream bloody murder, as profits are far more important to them than peoples’ lives.
Comment by ronjazz — August 24, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
Let me fill you in, ronjazz. American Troops are not the one’s blowing up innocent civilians. What you on the left have been saying all along is that the US Soldiers are cold blooded killers, in reality, American Troops are saving Iraqi lives by controlling the sectarian violence throughout Iraq. The “war profiteers” are your Democrat leaders who blame every obstacle along the way on the President. Here’s another eye-opener for you, even the Democrats know that pulling out of Iraq would be a disaster for the Iraqis. It is not going to happen, so get over yourself!
August 24th, 2007 at 5:53 pm> I can’t think of a bigger insult to American Troops, fallen Soldiers, or
> America, than the utter distortion of the truth which Think Progress is
> suggesting here.
> The writers of this blog ought to be ashamed of themselves, and they
> ought to apologize to the families of our Soldiers.
> Comment by blackball
Frack that. A bigger insult is to send them off to get killed in faraway lands based on lies to score cheap political points at home. Additionally, make
August 24th, 2007 at 5:53 pmthem the tool in the mass murder of 1′000′000 Iraqis. Nice one.
The truth is, our military cannot fail, only the politicians can fail our military.
You folks are really grasping at straws.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — August 24, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
OUr Military will not fail. But the anti-American sentiments coming from the far Left certainly weaken morale.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:55 pmThe writers of this blog and those blasting the war for its very existence have nothing to apologize to anyone for.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:56 pmAny we’re also sorry your balls turned black.
If America withdraws from Iraq, the Sunni Arabs will be facing an angry, mistreated, highly motivated Shiite majority that is friendly to neighboring Iran. Al Qaeda has been stoking sectarian division by blowing up innocent Shiite civilians, and destroying Shiite holy sites.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:59 pmI’m not surprised that the Sunni Shieks in Anbar are eager to distance themselves from these murderous foreigners.
Additionally, make
them the tool in the mass murder of 1′000′000 Iraqis. Nice one.
Comment by Troll Hater — August 24, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
Bllsht! American Soldiers are preventing the additional bloodshed that would result if there was a withdrawal. The Iraqis deaths thus far that have been related to sectarian violence were in NO WAY aided by the Troops. You are an insult to the brave men and women who put their lives on the line for YOU everyday!
August 24th, 2007 at 5:59 pmblackball, Iraqi’s weren’t dying by the hundreds until Bush decided to play King Of The World by sending the poor and gullible off to show how much bigger his dick was than his daddy’s. American soldiers will save Iraqi lives by getting out, and that’s an unfortunate fact for you chickenhawk cowards who won’t suit up and put your bodies where your mouths are. You haven’t a clue of what’s going on over there, not a single clue. There is one true and indisputable fact: 1 million iraqis are dead and 2 million homeless and wandering the desert because of this illegal, immoral, unnecessary, unAmerican, cowardly invasion and occupation. American troops have killed many thousands of innocent iraqis, that’s the truth. Not all of them, but, again, destroying the country’s infrastructure and political leadership let loose the sectarian violence, so it is entirely America’s fault. Entirely. Every reason given has been proven false, every one. The biggest war profiteer of all is your very own vice-president, so your blame-the-democrats game is over.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:00 pmBllsht! American Soldiers are preventing the additional bloodshed that would result if there was a withdrawal.
Comment by blackball — August 24, 2007 @ 5:59 pm
What about the bloodshed which was the result of the entry?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:02 pm> OUr Military will not fail
It’s time those capitalist running dog lackeys took a good whupping from the righteous God-enabled Republican Guard! Your pitiful attempts to drum up
August 24th, 2007 at 6:02 pmsupport are no more than howling at the moon.
Hi Bigfoot. Have you come up with an answer to my simple question:
How would “nuking” people help our troops?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:04 pmGeorge Bushes legacy and life is in the hands of Maliki now
the UN mandate runs out 15th december 07 , at ANY time Maliki can ask the US and Coalition forces to leave - anytime under the mandate
IF Maliki does this then George Bush is finished for good - think of it ? nice
George Bush only has one option and hes threatening to use it - - - and that option is war with Iran
August 24th, 2007 at 6:04 pmDEMOCRATIC REP. BRIAN BAIRD has an oped on listening to the troops:
As a Democrat who voted against the war from the outset and who has been frankly critical of the administration and the post-invasion strategy, I am convinced by the evidence that the situation has at long last begun to change substantially for the better. I believe Iraq could have a positive future. Our diplomatic and military leaders in Iraq, their current strategy, and most importantly, our troops and the Iraqi people themselves, deserve our continued support and more time to succeed. . . .
As one soldier said to me, “We have lost so many good people and invested so much, It just doesn’t make sense to quit now when we’re finally making progress. I want to go home as much as anyone else, but I want this mission to succeed and I’m willing to do what it takes. I just want to know the people back home know we’re making progress and support us.”
Read the whole thing. It won’t get the kind of Big Media attention that John Warner’s comments will, because it doesn’t fit the preferred narrative. And some interesting observations about Baird’s background here.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:06 pm> You are an insult to the brave men and women who put their lives on the
> line for YOU everyday!
1) Did I order an invasion?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:06 pm2) No Iraqi ever threatened me.
3) I they stopped doing duty, I wouldn’t be worse off. At all.
4) I’m pretty sure the “bloodshed” won’t be worse than it currently is, so the moral hazard of white man’s burden does not apply.
> George Bush only has one option and hes threatening to use it - - - and that
> option is war with Iran
I say November. What say thee?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:07 pmronjazz seems to think that everything America did, does and ever will do, is a failure.
I have a suggestion for ronjazz, MOVE!
August 24th, 2007 at 6:07 pmblackballs, your point is made, if we withdraw, there will be serious consequences, but why should American soldiers have to pay them? The Sunnis and Shiites have been like this for hundreds of years, and only Saddam could keep them under control. Bush screwed the pooch in every position possible, and the USA should get out and deliver billions of dollars straight into iraqi hands, to rebuild their country and to keep them from killing each other. This is a viable solution, but the misguided egos of the Deserter-Who-Speaks-To-God won’t allow it. he is totally and entirely responsible, and I suggest that we deliver him to Bagdad in exchange for a cease-fire, and let them string him up or do whatever it takes to settle this. But you have no answers except to let Americans keep dying for Bush’s ego.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:08 pm> As one soldier said to me, “We have lost so many good people and
> invested so much, It just doesn’t make sense to quit now when we’re
> finally making progress. I want to go home as much as anyone else, but I
> want this mission to succeed and I’m willing to do what it takes. I just want
> to know the people back home know we’re making progress and support us.
Fallacy of the sunk cost. Whatever the past already cost you, you should never consider it when making decision on future actions.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:10 pmronjazz seems to think that everything America did, does and ever will do, is a failure.
I have a suggestion for ronjazz, MOVE!
Comment by blackball — August 24, 2007 @ 6:07 pm
Well, I could run away, but then I’d be like Bush. Your accusation is baseless; I merely pointed out that when America is in the wrong, we suffer the loss of thousands of young Americans and trillions of dollars, and get nothing in return. The Viet Nam debacle was only a few years ago. Bush didn’t go. Enough said.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:11 pm“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is.â€
“I think it’s also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn.â€
“For the U.S. to get involved militarily in determining the outcome of the struggle over who’s going to govern in Iraq strikes me as a classic definition of a quagmire.â€
“The question for the president in terms of whether or not we went on to Baghdad and took additional casualties in an effort to get Saddam was how many additional dead Americans was Saddam worth, and our judgment was not very many. And I think we got it right.”
August 24th, 2007 at 6:11 pm3) I they stopped doing duty, I wouldn’t be worse off. At all.
Do you understand the concept of a Military? I don’t think you do. We are the strongest Nation on Earth, the envy of the world, and you are suggesting that the Military stop doing it’s duty? You are delusional!
August 24th, 2007 at 6:11 pmI want this mission to succeed and I’m willing to do what it takes
Comment by Frank J — August 24, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
Frank…What IS the Mission.??? Toppling Saddam? Destroying his WMD’s? Bringing democracy to Iraq? Stabalizing a dysfunctional country…WHAT??
August 24th, 2007 at 6:13 pmyes, one soldier. Good sample, Frank J. Doesn’t matter that dozens of generals and thousands of soldiers disagree, one poor koolaid drinker thinks it’s going well. Hope he gets a nice presidential visit at Walter Reed.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:13 pm> ronjazz seems to think that everything America did, does and ever will do, is a
> failure.
Well, there was that Moon Landing. And the building of a thriving computer industry. Also, Richard Feynman.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:13 pmGeorge Bushes legacy and life is in the hands of Maliki now
the UN mandate runs out 15th december 07 , at ANY time Maliki can ask the US and Coalition forces to leave - anytime under the mandate
IF Maliki does this then George Bush is finished for good - think of it ? nice
George Bush only has one option and hes threatening to use it - - - and that option is war with Iran
sorry another option is to withdraw FIRST on the 15th spetember
August 24th, 2007 at 6:14 pmComment by blackball — August 24, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
Isn’t the concept of a military the defense of the homeland?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:14 pmDo you understand the concept of a Military? I don’t think you do. We are the strongest Nation on Earth, the envy of the world, and you are suggesting that the Military stop doing it’s duty? You are delusional!
Comment by blackball — August 24, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
we are the most hated and feared nation on earth, hardly the strongest, and certainly not anubody’s envy except a few million mexicans. the military isn’t doing its duty, and certainly should stop its illegal occupation and stop playing policeman and nation-builders. That’s not their duty. You obviously have no idea what the American military is supposed to do.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:15 pm> Do you understand the concept of a Military? I don’t think you do. We are the
> strongest Nation on Earth, the envy of the world, and you are suggesting that
> the Military stop doing it’s duty? You are delusional
No, you are. Why do you want to be the biggest bully in the schoolyard? The US is spending more on war crap than all the rest of the world combined. Now that’s some serious pr0n addiction.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:16 pmThis says what I have been saying for a long time. If we get the hell out of their country and allow them to take responsibility for deciding where their country goes from here, we will be saving American lives and giving the Iraqi people their self esteem and their country back.
I can see no reason for staying. I personally believe that the violence will lessen once we are out of the picture. The day we are gone will be the day that Iraq kicks out all foreign fighters (many of whom are al-Qaeda) and most of whom are Saudis.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:18 pm82/ bilbobaggins - spot on
August 24th, 2007 at 6:23 pm“You folks are completely delusional.
Comment by Ringo”
Scares the hell out of you doesn’t it Ringo. What are you and your ilk going to do if we withdraw from Iraq and they get their act together and put their country back together? That prospect scares the hell out of you.
It scares the hell out of me because I don’t believe that Iraq is ever going to forgive us for what we have done to their country. I would not be at all surprised if, after we are gone, they refuse to ever sell us oil again. That will hurt big time. If we can’t buy our oil from Iraq or Iran, where are we going to get it?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:23 pm“Gallup did a poll of 552 veterans”
Hi Francine, nice to see you back. Sorry Francine, your theory does not work. These are “veterans”, not necessarily Iraq war veterans. For all we know they were all World War II and Korean War veterans. And, they did not poll on whether or not they thought we should leave Iraq, they polled on who they would vote for President. The two are not necessarily linked.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:30 pmHey folks. Don’t forget that Frank J has not earned his balls back, so we must all refer to him as Francine. When he actually answers a question without throwing in a straw man or changing the subject, then he will get his balls back. Until then, he will be Francine.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:33 pm“And this leaves unanswered what we would do if a crisis developed somewhere else in the world.
Comment by Badger”
Or here at home. If another country wanted to invade us, we would be fu(ked because most of our military and our national guard are not in the United States.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:35 pmbilbo,
We girls don’t want him! He can be neuter. :P
August 24th, 2007 at 6:36 pmHey, IgetownedbylibseverytimeIpost - you are still an idiot today like anyother day - and Mr. P(rick) is a super duper idiot everyday.
If we leave then they have to take care of their own country….who of thought of that? Oh, yeah, we did.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:38 pmWe girls don’t want him! He can be neuter. :P
Comment by Zooey — August 24, 2007 @ 6:36 pm
That’s a given already.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:39 pmI’ve thought all along that this is what the WH fears most: a withdrawal with NO bloodbath. NO dire consequences. Complete and utter confirmation that WE were the problem all along.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:43 pmJimBob ~ Bingo!
August 24th, 2007 at 6:44 pmI wonder if the trolls think Boosh in infallible in matters of war and state.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:45 pm“Do you reject the glamor of evil and refuse to be mastered by it.”
August 24th, 2007 at 6:45 pmanother thing about ‘the surge is working!’: Unless the surge is anly a permanent escalation, the only way you can possibly know that it is working is when it’s over.
Say you’ve got a teetering birdhouse on a pole, and you are standing down at the bottom holding it steady. Youre friend George says he’s got an idea. He gets his brother Jeb to help you hold it while he whacks away at the base. “Okay, I’m done!” he says. What’s the only way to know whether he’s made the situation worse or better?
Right. Let go of the pole.
If you don’y let go of the pole, it’s absurd to remark on its effectiveness. And the observation that the pole is steadier when both you and Jeb are holding it is completely beside the point.
To hit you with another metaphor: you can say the swelling’s gone down on a wound when you’re holding it in a vise and pressing, but that doesn’t mean it’s healing.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:45 pmThe TP cookie monster is again gobbling up posts at random. Anyway, gotta go…
August 24th, 2007 at 6:46 pmLet’s think this through from the perspective of the 25%ers. If we pull out, there is less violence and fewer Muslims being killed. And Armageddon will be delayed???
Well that sucks! Can Jesus get his ticket refunded?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:48 pmAl-Hajj’s health ‘deteriorating’
The health of Sami al-Hajj, an Al Jazeera cameraman being held in Guantanamo Bay, has deteriorated sharply in recent months according to notes previously censored by the US authorities.
Al-Hajj has reportedly lost 18kg in weight since he began a hunger strike last year according to the notes from a meeting with his lawyer in July.
“He’s just losing it,” Clive Stafford Smith, his lawyer, said in a telephone interview. “He’s definitely deteriorating physically and mentally from the hunger strike.”
http://english.aljazeera.net/ NR/ exeres/ 51EE6A7E-DC7C-4CB9-8D52-829BC08D69AB.htm
August 24th, 2007 at 6:48 pmRUCerious,
Yes, Bush is infallible in the eyes of the 25%ers because he is like a God to them.
But with all the evidence piling up that he has ruined everything he has ever touched, that his personal War is a failure, and he personally disgusts 70% of our citizens, the loyal struggle mightily to keep the shit from sticking to their diety.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:55 pmAnd RUCerious, good luck with the lingcod this weekend.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:58 pmThanks Nan, but it’s Sept 24 & 25, and the waitin is killin me!!!
August 24th, 2007 at 7:00 pmnan, he has botched every assignment his whole life.
August 24th, 2007 at 7:02 pmThis presidency is not something daddy can clean up behind him.
Bastards.
Can Jesus get his ticket refunded?
August 24th, 2007 at 7:04 pmSorry, those tickets are non-transferrable, non-refunable, non-cancellable, just gonna have to go with the armageddon you have, not the one you wish you could have.
And RUCerious, good luck with the lingcod this weekend.
Comment by nanlichi — August 24, 2007 @ 6:58 pm
Sorry to go off topic but fish is my fancy. Ling isn’t something most folks are familiar with. Care to give more info?
August 24th, 2007 at 7:14 pmWhy is it that “righties” seem to evaporate when confronted with simple questions?
August 24th, 2007 at 7:16 pmWhy is it that “righties†seem to evaporate when confronted with simple questions?
Comment by pete — August 24, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
Simple minds have trouble with even simple questions. That is why they invented Faux NoNooz, for the “simple” look at the world.
August 24th, 2007 at 7:22 pmWhy is it that “righties†seem to evaporate when confronted with simple questions?
Comment by pete — August 24, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
——-
TP nulled me after one comment, and I haven’t been able to post on this thread since.
You are nothing but a pawn in a deadly game of Islamo-Lefty Chess!!!
August 24th, 2007 at 7:38 pmComment by Makarios — August 24, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
You stated earlier the American people didn’t know everything the military was doing, now your stating that you know more than they do.
Your a bloviator, thru and thru and back again.
Comment by Accuse Cheney — August 24, 2007 @ 7:38 pm
Its because your annoying and add nothing to the thread but assinine self-serving baseless ad hominem attacks.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:53 pmComment by Accuse Cheney — August 24, 2007 @ 7:38 pm
How can a Godless atheist lefty be an Allah fundamentalist Islamic?
Your posts are irrational, illogical and just plain lack common sense.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:58 pmI believe the wishy-washy banter in Congress hurts our ability to provide security in Iraq. All these different tribal leaders are forced to play both sides of the fence, when we look like we are about to abandon them.
When we had momentum after the invasion, and appeared to be looking to invade Iran as well, the various tribal leaders and people of Iraq seemed confident of Iraq’s future (with the exception of Muqtada Al Sadr, who we should have killed when we had several chances to do so), but we allowed that to slip, and so went the security situation there.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:42 pmComment by Jason M. Hendler — August 24, 2007 @ 9:42 pm
Well, to listen to the “war” supporters, the surge is working. This despite the “wishy-washy banter in Congress.”
You want it both ways, don’t you, Hendler???
August 24th, 2007 at 10:55 pmAre we two and a half weeks away from an Iraq Tet?
August 25th, 2007 at 12:47 amthe increasing security success in Iraq (ALL thanks to Bush’s surge!)
A large part of the improvement is due to the fact that many Sunni tribes in Anbar turned against Al Qaeda. That began last December BEFORE THE SURGE WAS EVEN ANNOUNCED.
http://radamisto.blogspot.com/ 2007/ 07/ sen-graham-lying-whore.html
August 25th, 2007 at 12:54 am> All these different tribal leaders are
> forced to play both sides of the fence,
theres only two sides? wow, glad your mind sees the world in such mercifully simple terms
> when we look like we are about to abandon them.
oh god… please explain how you got such a clever insight into the mass psychology of the iraqi mind?
and what serious talk of withdraw was there before the rethugs lost congress? nooone… your saying everything was going swimingly before then?
so you’re saying, if we are asked to leave by either majority of iraqis or the democratically elected government, we should ,right?
you and your heroes have been wrong about everything in iraq and you will continue to be wrong in the future..
August 25th, 2007 at 5:15 amThe threat of withdrawing forces has clearly had a positive impact in Anbar. The longer we stay in Iraq the worse the violence will get. Troop withdrawal will reduce the violence because we are seen as an occupying and invading force that is no longer welcome in Iraq. We need to send troops to Afghanistan instead of Iraq.
August 25th, 2007 at 5:16 am> the wishy-washy banter
this is what Hambler calls free and open dialogauge in a democracy…”wishy washy banter”…
why can’t everyone just listen and obey the wisdom of Dick “saddam has nukes” Cheney, DOnald “we know where the weapons are” Rumsfeld and
August 25th, 2007 at 5:18 amPaul “iraqs oil money will pay for its reconstruction” Wolfiewitz?
How so many Bush administration officials can be so wrong on so many front is baffling. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice had an agenda when they got to the White House and they were willing to lie to the American people to achieve it.
August 25th, 2007 at 5:40 am“I’ve thought all along that this is what the WH fears most: a withdrawal with NO bloodbath. NO dire consequences. Complete and utter confirmation that WE were the problem all along.
Comment by JimBob — August 24, 2007 @ 6:43 pm”
And what the left fears most is success in Iraq, which is why you all are pushing your Democrats to scuttle every attempt at winning.
However, the Democrats are smart enough to realize that they cannot win actual elections with only the support of the far left, which accounts for far less than 25% of the general population (the percentage the left constantly attributes to Bush supporters).
The anti-war far-left is invested in defeat in Iraq. If we are successful, the fringe left will be once again discredited, and once again relegated to the sidelines of political debate.
However, the frustration is starting to show. The more the far-left realizes that their once confident feeling of power is really nothing more than a mere apparition, the wilder and more bizarre the charges get. And ironically, the more marginalized the far left becomes. It’s the last gasp of the nutroots:
No one is going to be impeached.
No one is going to be charged with any war crimes.
No one is going to jail.
Our military is not leaving Iraq.
Our government is getting the tools necessary to fight this war on terror through the Patriot Act and the Protect America Act.
We will most likely be striking against Iran prior to Bush leaving office, with the blessing of a good percentage of the Democrats.
Sorry folks, the dreams of a far-left America, sitting ripe for further attack by religious nuts with box cutters, just isn’t going to happen.
August 25th, 2007 at 10:31 amComment by O. Bigfoot — August 25, 2007 @ 10:31 am
And what the Right fears is that the Democrats may actually be right in the end. But they admit defeat without actually admitting it; just look at the recent news that the WH has dropped the requirement, as justification for the “surge,” that the Iraqi government get it’s ass in gear and show progress on political reconciliation.
As for the Dems losing elections based on their stance on Iraq, yeah, that really happened in Nov. 2006, didn’t it?
August 25th, 2007 at 11:34 amImprovement and progress have strange bedfellows. Just yesterday the LA Times reported that since the surge started there has been 600,000 new internal refugees. That translates to roughly 3,000 per day and caused Slate to label it as “a stupefying increase”. This is not a political matrix but a military matrix and it puts a black eye on the military effort. Some “improvement” here.
As I have said elsewhere, progress is something that can be measured. You have a base number then take a later snapshot and compare the two. With internal refugees we have negative progress that has been described as stupefying. Somehow I think Gen. David Patraeous will not comment on the refugee situation — perhaps the most important matrix of all.
August 25th, 2007 at 2:15 pmSpeaking of which…
Much of the touted security gains have come in the Anbar province, a region that was not the target of Bush’s escalation.
Wikipedia: Iraq War troop surge of 2007
Paragraph fkn 1:
You’ve all been talking about the troop escalation in Iraq daily for more than 6 months, but when someone posts such a clearly inaccurate statement about something so fundamental as it not targetting one of the only 2 regions it does target, not one of you notices ?
It’s pretty much the same as statement that there are no Canadian NHL teams, something you would know to be untrue if you ever gave enough of a shit about the NHL to ever read about it just once.
August 26th, 2007 at 12:17 amGreat education you’re getting here kids.
Did they ?
LATIMES.COM ARTICLES
August 26th, 2007 at 12:26 amNo matches found on search for: internal refugees iraq surge
Try broadening your search criteria.
The NIE states that local security arrangements such as those in Anbar province are being formed in response to imminent U.S. withdrawal, and that these “bottom up†security initiatives “represent the best prospect for improved security over the next six to 12 monthsâ€:
“[F]earing a Coalition withdrawal, some tribal elements and Sunni groups probably will continue to seek accommodation with the Coalition to strengthen themselves for a post- Coalition security environmentâ€
Gee if only such an al Anbar security alliance had an easily quoted name you could use in future. Something along the lines of:
So in summary, the US COIN strategy isn’t working, because the progress that is seen is due to the US COIN strategy. Awesome.
And this type of misrepresentation, which relies on readers never having read anything about any of these efforts at any point during the past year, goes over just fine here on ThinkProgress for obvious reasons.
August 26th, 2007 at 12:44 amNot a single person querying the blatant ignorance on display. Fantastic.
so there is good news on the war and you libs want to take credit for it. you really cant admit that it is the surge in troops? you guys are off the charts crazy. Dems have been whining about pulling out for 2 years now and this website publishes an article hat its finally making iraq safe by the prospect of less troops? please try and save your money to send your kids to college so they dont end up stupid like you.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:14 pm“Is The Prospect Of Withdrawal Responsible For The Modest Security Gains In Iraq?”
Nahhhh….I’m certain the full implementation of the surge had absolutely NOTHING to do with “modest security gains” made in Iraq. As a matter of fact, the US probably would have won every single war we’ve ever been in IF we never bothered to show up, fight, and kill our enemy. Our absence probably would have scared the $h*t out of Hitler and Tojo.
August 28th, 2007 at 1:31 am