Comments on: Plane carrying U.S. lawmakers in Iraq comes under attack. http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/ Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:28:21 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Zanubiyah http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-4/#comment-4051973 Zanubiyah Sat, 01 Sep 2007 05:18:58 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4051973 Unfortunatly, I have a more sinister view of this incident. What if these most supportive Republican Senators were shot down by these rockets? What would have been the result? Many of you say that the "rockets" could not have been made in home grown insurgent factories, and it takes training to use these things. Why wasn't there any security to insure these men's safety? If this was a mission to bring senators to the canned tour of the green zone, I am sure that the military knew they were coming, and had made arrangements, including keeping it secret, about their coming and going...which brings about my sinister view. What if this was the failed attempted pretext to start the war with Iran? What if the mission of the shooters of the rockets were "agents' of the neocons? Just a question. Unfortunatly, I have a more sinister view of this incident. What if these most supportive Republican Senators were shot down by these rockets? What would have been the result? Many of you say that the “rockets” could not have been made in home grown insurgent factories, and it takes training to use these things.

Why wasn’t there any security to insure these men’s safety? If this was a mission to bring senators to the canned tour of the green zone, I am sure that the military knew they were coming, and had made arrangements, including keeping it secret, about their coming and going…which brings about my sinister view.

What if this was the failed attempted pretext to start the war with Iran? What if the mission of the shooters of the rockets were “agents’ of the neocons? Just a question.

]]> By: ForTruth http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-4/#comment-4050064 ForTruth Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:54:15 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4050064 Actually those pilots do totally kick ass. This was a dose of reality for the neo-nuts. Glad no-one was hurt. Actually those pilots do totally kick ass.

This was a dose of reality for the neo-nuts. Glad no-one was hurt.

]]> By: eric http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-4/#comment-4050013 eric Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:32:29 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4050013 Wait a sec... wasn't this Mission Accomplished already? Wait a sec… wasn’t this Mission Accomplished already?

]]> By: NakedEmperor http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-4/#comment-4049915 NakedEmperor Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:53:35 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049915 Bastards missed out a great clearance sale going on the Rugs around the corner. They were about $3 each. 40% off discounted. Bastards missed out a great clearance sale going on the Rugs around the corner. They were about $3 each. 40% off discounted.

]]> By: huh http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-4/#comment-4049807 huh Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:15:10 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049807 Building bombs and IED’s are one thing, but rockets…I don’t know if the insurgents can actually whip those up in some abandoned factory in the middle of a war zone. It just doesn’t seem likely. Comment by Cyrena — August 30, 2007 @ 8:40 pm Wow, where have ya been for the last few years, bud? You think they have nothing but IED's? Ya know, there were a few weapons there before our guys got there, not to mention the weapons gone missing and those provided by outside terrorists and countries that support them. You have the beginnings of another great lib conspiracy theory there, buddy. ;) Building bombs and IED’s are one thing, but rockets…I don’t know if the insurgents can actually whip those up in some abandoned factory in the middle of a war zone. It just doesn’t seem likely.

Comment by Cyrena — August 30, 2007 @ 8:40 pm

Wow, where have ya been for the last few years, bud? You think they have nothing but IED’s? Ya know, there were a few weapons there before our guys got there, not to mention the weapons gone missing and those provided by outside terrorists and countries that support them. You have the beginnings of another great lib conspiracy theory there, buddy. ;)

]]> By: missmolly http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-4/#comment-4049703 missmolly Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:46:12 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049703 I have been looking for any kind of evidence that a RPG has the kind of range needed to attack aircraft at 6,000 feet, and can find none. I have found reported ranges of 500 to 900 meters (depending on website), but nothing that even comes close to 6,000 feet. Therefore, I conclude that this C-130 plane was never in any danger from RPGs fired from the ground based on what we know from this report. So what really happened? Let's look at some possible scenarios, even absurd ones: 1) The representatives made the whole thing up. Possible, but highly improbable. No way would they risk their careers on telling an outright lie that could be debunked, and there really isn't any political gain from telling such a story. It's very likely there was SOME kind of threat causing the pilot to fly like a barnstormer. 2) The warheads were fired from the ground, but they weren't RPGs -- they were missiles with far greater range. If that's the case, who has weapons like this, and who is firing them? If the insurgents do, if Al Qaeda does, if any of the factions of the civil war do, then we need to be concerned. If this was a case of friendly fire, we need to be doubly concerned, and check it out. 3) The weapons were fired from someplace in the air, closer to the C-130. Now, I can't imagine somebody getting into an airplane to fire off rocket propelled grenades to shoot down another airplane -- that seems highly improbable. Chances are that if this was an aircraft-to-aircraft attack, some other kind of weapon was used. But I think the pilot would know if another plane was attacking him. 4) The C-130 was a lot closer to the ground than 6,000 feet, and Cramer's estimate was way off. If they were, say, at only 2,000 feet, an RPG could possibly reach them. We do know that it was night, so it was probably difficult for the lawmakers to see what was really happening. I have been looking for any kind of evidence that a RPG has the kind of range needed to attack aircraft at 6,000 feet, and can find none. I have found reported ranges of 500 to 900 meters (depending on website), but nothing that even comes close to 6,000 feet. Therefore, I conclude that this C-130 plane was never in any danger from RPGs fired from the ground based on what we know from this report.

So what really happened? Let’s look at some possible scenarios, even absurd ones:

1) The representatives made the whole thing up. Possible, but highly improbable. No way would they risk their careers on telling an outright lie that could be debunked, and there really isn’t any political gain from telling such a story. It’s very likely there was SOME kind of threat causing the pilot to fly like a barnstormer.

2) The warheads were fired from the ground, but they weren’t RPGs — they were missiles with far greater range. If that’s the case, who has weapons like this, and who is firing them? If the insurgents do, if Al Qaeda does, if any of the factions of the civil war do, then we need to be concerned. If this was a case of friendly fire, we need to be doubly concerned, and check it out.

3) The weapons were fired from someplace in the air, closer to the C-130. Now, I can’t imagine somebody getting into an airplane to fire off rocket propelled grenades to shoot down another airplane — that seems highly improbable. Chances are that if this was an aircraft-to-aircraft attack, some other kind of weapon was used. But I think the pilot would know if another plane was attacking him.

4) The C-130 was a lot closer to the ground than 6,000 feet, and Cramer’s estimate was way off. If they were, say, at only 2,000 feet, an RPG could possibly reach them.

We do know that it was night, so it was probably difficult for the lawmakers to see what was really happening.

]]> By: missmolly http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049632 missmolly Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:13:12 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049632 From the AP article: "Lawmakers travel to Iraq regularly to get a closer look at military and political progress there, usually staying inside Baghdad's secured Green Zone and traveling under heavy security." From bilbobaggins: "I believe it may have been missmolly who said the other day that we could save the taxpayers a lot of money if they held the “dog and pony show” back here in Washington rather than in Iraq." I'm liking my idea more and more, actually. Not only will it save taxpayers' money, but it will keep the politicians out of danger. Going to the Green Zone to "get a closer look at military and political progress there" is akin to going to visit Paris and spending all your time in the hotel with the shades drawn. Pointless. From the AP article: “Lawmakers travel to Iraq regularly to get a closer look at military and political progress there, usually staying inside Baghdad’s secured Green Zone and traveling under heavy security.”

From bilbobaggins: “I believe it may have been missmolly who said the other day that we could save the taxpayers a lot of money if they held the “dog and pony show” back here in Washington rather than in Iraq.”

I’m liking my idea more and more, actually. Not only will it save taxpayers’ money, but it will keep the politicians out of danger. Going to the Green Zone to “get a closer look at military and political progress there” is akin to going to visit Paris and spending all your time in the hotel with the shades drawn. Pointless.

]]> By: Dave http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049615 Dave Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:54:50 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049615 All I have to say is thank goodness they didn't actually blow the plane out of the sky. Bush would have made them all into martyrs. All I have to say is thank goodness they didn’t actually blow the plane out of the sky. Bush would have made them all into martyrs.

]]> By: celtic cynic http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049613 celtic cynic Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:34:26 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049613 Weren't they the lucky ones. How long did they spend in Iraq? How many rugs did they buy? How many photos were taken? How much did this little fact-finding (ha-ha) jaunt cost the American taxpayer? Weren’t they the lucky ones.
How long did they spend in Iraq?
How many rugs did they buy?
How many photos were taken?
How much did this little fact-finding (ha-ha) jaunt cost the American taxpayer?

]]> By: George http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049603 George Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:48:52 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049603 Seeing the steady flow of U.S. legislators visit the war makes no sense at all. I don't recall any of this in our past wars and I can clearly remember the Korean Conflict and a little of WW2. Can't you picture U.S. legislators buzzing around Germany for one day visits when we were fighting Hitler? Seeing the steady flow of U.S. legislators visit the war makes no sense at all. I don’t recall any of this in our past wars and I can clearly remember the Korean Conflict and a little of WW2. Can’t you picture U.S. legislators buzzing around Germany for one day visits when we were fighting Hitler?

]]> By: Strike http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049590 Strike Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:40:20 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049590 That was a warm welcome xD That was a warm welcome xD

]]> By: The Sweet Sphincter of the Saviour Chocolate Jesus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049588 The Sweet Sphincter of the Saviour Chocolate Jesus Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:15:48 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049588 > please check out this link I did even before you asked.. very powerful.. very moving.. a perfectly horrible display of the senselessness of all this.... man.. all i can say is put that one on a postcard and mail it to every voter you can in 2008... > please check out this link

I did even before you asked.. very powerful.. very moving.. a perfectly horrible display of the senselessness of all this….

man.. all i can say is put that one on a postcard and mail it to every voter you can in 2008…

]]> By: The Sweet Sphincter of the Saviour Chocolate Jesus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049587 The Sweet Sphincter of the Saviour Chocolate Jesus Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:14:00 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049587 >http://www.jenbekman.com/ artists/ nina_berman/ current/ >nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg >If this lovely couple became the poster child for Bush’s war CHRIST...thats a f#cked up pic..... better view is here: http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/?gallery=current&image=nina_berman_marine_wedding sad..sad...sad...her eyes are dead..she doesnt even want to look at him...from what little expression you can see of whats left of his face, he seems ashamed to even be looking at her...... man...what kind of mad world to we live in that the peopel who claim to "support our troops" want more couples to end up like this, just so Iraqi's can have the freedom to become as much like Iran as they want to...? >http://www.jenbekman.com/ artists/ nina_berman/ current/ >nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg
>If this lovely couple became the poster child for Bush’s war

CHRIST…thats a f#cked up pic…..
better view is here:
http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/?gallery=current&image=nina_berman_marine_wedding

sad..sad…sad…her eyes are dead..she doesnt even want to look at him…from what little expression you can see of whats left of his face, he seems ashamed to even be looking at her……

man…what kind of mad world to we live in that the peopel who claim to “support our troops” want more couples to end up like this, just so Iraqi’s can have the freedom to become as much like Iran as they want to…?

]]> By: rockyroad http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049586 rockyroad Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:12:13 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049586 Alll you have to do is hilight the link, right click, click copy, then put your cursor in the address line at the top of your screen and paste. Alll you have to do is hilight the link, right click, click copy, then put your cursor in the address line at the top of your screen and paste.

]]> By: rockyroad http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049585 rockyroad Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:10:22 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049585 Sweet Sphincter . . . please check out this link and let me know what you think ... appreciate it . . . http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/current/nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg Sweet Sphincter . . . please check out this link and let me know what you think … appreciate it . . .

http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/current/nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg

]]> By: The Sweet Sphincter of the Saviour Chocolate Jesus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049584 The Sweet Sphincter of the Saviour Chocolate Jesus Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:07:35 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049584 >Our soldiers are winning at a rate of about 100 to 1. -r(idiculous) Nice fabricated statistic. If thats true, then we've killed 300,000 insurgents and wounded 6 million. And yet we STILL cant travel anywhere in baghdad without heavy army, jackets, helmets, and usually air support. If we've already killed or wounded 6 million insurgents and Iraq still isnt secured, I'd day we're screwed. >Our soldiers are winning at a rate of about 100 to 1. -r(idiculous)

Nice fabricated statistic. If thats true, then we’ve killed 300,000 insurgents and wounded 6 million. And yet we STILL cant travel anywhere in baghdad without heavy army, jackets, helmets, and usually air support. If we’ve already killed or wounded 6 million insurgents and Iraq still isnt secured, I’d day we’re screwed.

]]> By: rockyroad http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049582 rockyroad Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:47:17 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049582 I'm noy usually much of a screamer. . . . but catch that link: http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/current/nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg If this lovely couple became the poster child for Bush's war . . . the whole damn thing might just end. (God bless you both, you may have put a face on a fiasco and snuffed it . . . few people accomplish so much in a lifetime) I’m noy usually much of a screamer. . . . but catch that link:

http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/current/nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg

If this lovely couple became the poster child for Bush’s war . . . the whole damn thing might just end.

(God bless you both, you may have put a face on a fiasco and snuffed it . . . few people accomplish so much in a lifetime)

]]> By: rockyroad http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049581 rockyroad Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:35:45 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049581 I can think of no other way to convey the sadness of this foray into horror. These two are American icons . . . a tribute to the reality of this war. God bless . . . http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/current/nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg I can think of no other way to convey the sadness of this foray into horror. These two are American icons . . . a tribute to the reality of this war.

God bless . . .

http://www.jenbekman.com/artists/nina_berman/current/nina_berman_marine_wedding_thmb.jpg

]]> By: rockyroad http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049580 rockyroad Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:24:53 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049580 Oh shut up Mr. P. Blowhard. I love America, Jesus, God, Humanity, Goodness, Kindness, Love, and Decency. Why don't you? Oh shut up Mr. P. Blowhard.

I love America, Jesus, God, Humanity, Goodness, Kindness, Love, and Decency.

Why don’t you?

]]> By: Daniel in AZ http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/comment-page-3/#comment-4049578 Daniel in AZ Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:15:27 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/08/30/military-plane-carrying-us-lawmakers-in-iraq-comes-under-attack/#comment-4049578 Hey Rocky.... not to comment on the bulk of your post [I suspect you're mostly venting], a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-130_Hercules" rel="nofollow">C-130</a> is a military transport plane. An incredibly ENORMOUS military transport plane. Apparently the pilots refer to them as "Herks" [for Hercules]. It's the predecessor to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-5_Galaxy" rel="nofollow">C-5 Galaxy</a>. However, C-130 pilots [at least the few I know] are quite proud & protective of their rides, so I wouldn't bring up the C-5 in casual conversation with them unless you want to get an earful. Yes - I know - I'm being anal & pedantic at the same time. Just wanted to point out that these guys weren't in helicopters. Hey Rocky…. not to comment on the bulk of your post [I suspect you're mostly venting], a C-130 is a military transport plane. An incredibly ENORMOUS military transport plane. Apparently the pilots refer to them as “Herks” [for Hercules]. It’s the predecessor to the C-5 Galaxy. However, C-130 pilots [at least the few I know] are quite proud & protective of their rides, so I wouldn’t bring up the C-5 in casual conversation with them unless you want to get an earful.

Yes – I know – I’m being anal & pedantic at the same time. Just wanted to point out that these guys weren’t in helicopters.

]]>