Lawmakers Who Were Almost Shot Down Declare ‘Significant Progress’ In Iraq
Lawmakers Who Were Almost Shot Down Declare ‘Significant Progress’ In Iraq
Yesterday, a plane carrying three U.S. senators and a member of the House was forced to take evasive maneuvers to avoid rocket-propelled grenades as they took off from Baghdad. “It was a scary moment,” said Sen. Mel Martinez (R-FL). “There were a few minutes there where I wondered: ‘Have we been hit? Are we OK?’” added Rep. Bud Cramer (D-AL).
Despite the close call, the lawmakers continued to insist that progress was being made in Iraq:
– “Incredibly significant progress has been made on the military front,” Martinez told the Orlando Sentinel.
– “I believe the surge, from observations…that they have made a lot of progress with the surge. It’s not definitive, but it’s on the right track,” Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL) told the Tuscaloosa News.
– Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) told the Tulsa World that “his visit allowed him to witness firsthand the progress resulting from the ongoing troop surge in Iraq.”
The senators’ assessments are contradicted by the conclusion in the Government Accountability Office’s upcoming report on Iraq, a draft of which was leaked to the Washington Post yesterday. The “strikingly negative” draft report says that “Iraq has failed to meet all but three of 18 congressionally mandated benchmarks for political and military progress”:
“While the Baghdad security plan was intended to reduce sectarian violence, U.S. agencies differ on whether such violence has been reduced,” it states. While there have been fewer attacks against U.S. forces, it notes, the number of attacks against Iraqi civilians remains unchanged. It also finds that “the capabilities of Iraqi security forces have not improved.”
“Overall,” the report concludes, “key legislation has not been passed, violence remains high, and it is unclear whether the Iraqi government will spend $10 billion in reconstruction funds,” as promised. [...]
It contradicts the Bush administration’s conclusion in July that sectarian violence was decreasing as a result of the U.S. military’s stepped-up operations in Baghdad this year. “The average number of daily attacks against civilians remained about the same over the last six months; 25 in February versus 26 in July,” the GAO draft states.
In an interview with ThinkProgress this week, Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D-CA) described the “physiological phenomenon” of lawmakers claiming to see progress in Iraq that is contradicted by empirical evidence. She called it “Green Zone fog.”
Apparently even a close-call with a rocket propelled grenade isn’t enough to shake the “Green Zone fog” from the eyes of some Bush supporters.
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I love it, this should be pretty tough to put a sunny spin on Iraq’s wonderful progress.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:22 pmThat’s what you get for kissing cheney’s ass!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:23 pmThanks for taking my question, Senators.
Would your assessment have been different if you had, in fact, been shot down?
And a follow-up: if you were shot down, and didn’t survive, would that have changed your assessment on progress in iraq at all?
August 31st, 2007 at 4:26 pmThey keep saying there’s progress, but they don’t tell us exactly what comprises said progress or how they make this determination.
“yes, there’s progress. I can’t define it, but it’s progress!”
August 31st, 2007 at 4:26 pm“ok! good enough for me! *drool*”
Yep, there’s one born every minute. The parting gift-a certificate of 1500 shares of Halliburton stock clinched the deal.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:26 pmAnd they’re going back soon, right?
The immoral pro-death right-wing is working overtime disseminating their propaganda.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:27 pmPlease no caption contests. It will just end up silly with this one.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:28 pmPlease no caption contests. It will just end up silly with this one.
Comment by dbadass — August 31, 2007 @ 4:28 pm
See #2
August 31st, 2007 at 4:30 pmSOMEONE GIVE THAT MAN A MONOCLE AND A MUSTACHE!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:30 pmRemember that Truth Squad that had the job of immediately correcting any lie that the goopers try to get into the news? Well I think that it might be time to restart that group.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:31 pmBilljpa
I love that come hither look.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:32 pmI wonder why no statements by Cramer?
Curious…..
Or was this cherry-picked
August 31st, 2007 at 4:35 pmIf this is “significant progress”…
just how bad was it!!!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:35 pmRemember that Truth Squad that had the job of immediately correcting any lie that the goopers try to get into the news? Well I think that it might be time to restart that group.
Billjpa
Comment by billjpa — August 31, 2007 @ 4:31 pm
Juan Cole does an excellent job of that in today’s blog entry:
http://www.juancole.com
August 31st, 2007 at 4:35 pmHAH!!! Like that’s any surprise. I really do not like Martinez.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:37 pmLooks like the war was a complete failure
Iraq’s ministry of industry and minerals would open up all 65 of its state-owned enterprises to joint ventures with international investors by the end of the year, the minister said on Wednesday.
It has spoken to the French-owned Lafarge group and Egypt’s Orascom. Mr Hariri said on Wednesday that he also hoped to attract Mitsubishi,/B> from Japan, Dow Chemicals from the US and other companies to the ministry’s portfolio of petrochemical and heavy industry interests.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4198d7e2-5655-11dc-ab9c-0000779fd2ac.html
August 31st, 2007 at 4:38 pmBig Fish / George Soros here / TP not blogworthy?
Come on let the lemmings feed…
Comment by Bob — August 31, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
Big deal. They did something illegal, and are paying a fine. Good! How is that relevant to anything?
August 31st, 2007 at 4:38 pmDoes this mean that if the next time around the insurgents actually are successful in managing to shoot down a plane full of U.S. politicians we can then declare victory and all go home? Pretzel logic — thy name is GOP!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:39 pmTP – Re: Mel and the cigar – not enough phallic symbolism for you in the last few days???
August 31st, 2007 at 4:40 pmMel Martinez doing his best Bob Allen impression.
-GSD
August 31st, 2007 at 4:40 pmwhere do you guys find these pictures!! LOL!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:40 pmComment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
What’s your point?
We don’t need no stinkin’ success in infrastructure, government, security. All we need to do, is say things are better and just wait another FU, and then we will tell you to wait another FU. What’s the big deal, anyway?
Oh, and we may need another $150 billion or so from your grandchildren’s petty cash to bomb Iran. Have a Good Labor Day!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:41 pm# 16 ask the families of the wounded and dead soldiers if their lives were worth business for Dow and Halliburton and all the rest selling Iraq oil. How many arms, legs is a gallon of oil worth? Would you trade your life for a lie?
August 31st, 2007 at 4:42 pmAnother major plus to ending our illegal criminal occupation of Iraq: with the addition of the vast reserves of Iraqi oil pumped onto the world markets, the price of gasoline in the US will probably fall to below $2/gallon.
Of course, the American oil companies and the Bush crime family don’t want to see American drivers being able to buy gasoline at $1.98/gallon…
August 31st, 2007 at 4:42 pmWTF?
Comment by Bob — August 31, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
Yeah. Nobody cares about your trumped up “scandal.” Now go troll somewhere else.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:43 pmComment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
Your problem is that you focus on the negative. (kinda like post #15)
Remember:
“Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…
And…always look on the bright side of life…
August 31st, 2007 at 4:43 pmAlways look on the light side of life… “
Iraq’s ministry of industry and minerals would open up all 65 of its state-owned enterprises to joint ventures with international investors by the end of the year, the minister said on Wednesday.
National Oil fields doing a joint venture with a US company
NO I DONT THINK SO
August 31st, 2007 at 4:44 pmApparently even a close-call with a rocket propelled grenade isn’t enough to shake the “Green Zone fog†from the eyes of some Bush supporters.
In others words, TP is claiming that soldiers having experience in the red-zone can’t conclude anything else except failure during a time of war. Being in the cutesy green-zone scrolling Thinkprogress.org, apparently, is the only rational way to defend one’s country.
TP gives one more example as to why they hate the troops.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:45 pmOh, and we may need another $150 billion or so from your grandchildren’s petty cash to bomb Iran. Have a Good Labor Day!
Comment by upside00 — August 31, 2007 @ 4:41 pm
But we did manage to bribe one tribe in Anbar to stop shooting at us for a little while. THAT’S PROGRESS!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:45 pmThe US has messed up most chances of gaining Iraqi oil contracts because it needs security to protect the the workers as where the French and other countries do not ……….
etc etc etc
August 31st, 2007 at 4:46 pmDoes this mean that if the next time around the insurgents actually are successful in managing to shoot down a plane full of U.S. politicians we can then declare victory and all go home? Pretzel logic — thy name is GOP!
Comment by krazeeinjun — August 31, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
it’s not really a victory for America unless it’s AF1.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:47 pmTP gives one more example as to why they hate the troops.
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
CT_V1 gives one more example of his complete lack of capacity for logic or rational thought.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:47 pmI guess Republican lawmakers are used to getting shot at whenever they leave home for work.
“To work James & don’t forget to run over the liberals!”
August 31st, 2007 at 4:47 pmWhat happened to the group of conservative journalists that, at the beginning of the war in iraq, said they were going to go on a country-wide tour of iraq and do *accurate* reporting on the successes begin realized there, as a way of countering the left-biased reporting of the media?
I think Laura Ingraham was part of it.
Does anyone know what became of that?
Thanks.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:48 pmBob, what will the surge do? What happens after the surge?
August 31st, 2007 at 4:49 pms the only rational way to defend one’s country.
TP gives one more example as to why they hate the troops.
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
This country only needs defending aginst the Bushco GOP and traitors like you. Without the stolen ‘08 election, the WTC would still be standing, and the hijackers would still be in prison. why do you think they waited until Bush was in office for 9 months? Because they knew that somebody that lazy and stupid would make for an easy target, and they were right. 100% correct, and then their mastermind was allowed to go free! they knew Bush from all the oil deals and the histroy of treason in the Bush familt, from funding Hitler right on up to the present. Those poor uniformes slaves are protecting the Bush family interests, not the USA.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:51 pmMore dog and pony show automatons. Sigh.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:53 pmBut we did manage to bribe one tribe in Anbar to stop shooting at us for a little while. THAT’S PROGRESS!
Comment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
And we are now bribing new soldiers with a $40,000 bounty to sign up. I wonder how that is going? Sounding more and more like the French Foreign Legion every day!
August 31st, 2007 at 4:54 pmOnly a drooling conservative Bush lapper could turn a missile-launched grenade attack on his plane into a sign of progress.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:55 pmGet those congressman back right now,,,,
We need them in PHILADELPHIA and NEW ORLEANS where AMAZING progress is being made on people KILLED in our own cities……
Just think about the PROGRESS these guys could claim to see in just 1 of these cities,,, and with 40+ years of the WAR on POVERTY behind them….. YEAAAAAA
OHHHH wait,,,, HILLARY’s already got it covered,,,, nevermind.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:56 pmAnd we are now bribing new soldiers with a $40,000 bounty to sign up. I wonder how that is going? Sounding more and more like the French Foreign Legion every day!
Comment by upside00 — August 31, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
Well we’re going to need them for the invasion of Iran.
It’s less than 22 days away.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:57 pmPerhaps TP should send their own observer over to Iraq to have a look for themselves.
I nominate Matt.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:59 pmRE : Progress in Iraq read David Corn’s article in The Nation from a report issued by the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. Rampant corruption being left unchecked is just one of the issues. But what idiot looking at the 1000 years history of the Middle East would not expect this?
August 31st, 2007 at 4:59 pmPayoffs are the norm for everywhere but at least our soldiers aren’t dying to allow another country to do business as usual. Bring our people HOME !
Comment by troqua — August 31, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
Not only was it a sign of progress, it was a sign of Iraqi appreciation.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:00 pmOur boondoggle $ investment in IRAQ is probably SUPERCEDED by only 1 other BIGGER boondoggle,,,,
The war on POVERTY in this country…..
By any LIBERAL account it is a failure (and getting worse).
Let’s pull out now!
August 31st, 2007 at 5:00 pmComment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
In other words, you’re claiming every true American, along with every proud and battle-tested soldier to lack the capacity for logical thought.
That’s how you’ve interpreted my response, toastedhead.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:01 pmThe war on POVERTY in this country…..
By any LIBERAL account it is a failure (and getting worse).
Let’s pull out now!
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
Prove that conditions would be better for poor Americans without it.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:03 pmPerhaps TP should send their own observer over to Iraq to have a look for themselves.
I nominate Matt.
Comment by Ringo — August 31, 2007 @ 4:59 pm
Why Matt?
August 31st, 2007 at 5:03 pmMel Martinez sticks a cigar in his mouth, in reaction to Larry Craig’s statement to the police: “I tend to spread my legs when I lower my pants.”
August 31st, 2007 at 5:03 pmThat’s how you’ve interpreted my response, toastedhead.
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 5:01 pm
No, I was talking about you. Not soldiers or patriotic Americans. Just you.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:03 pmLets get our Troops home from KOREA, GERMANY, KUWAIT, etc……..
They are overextended in these locations and have been here far longer than IRAQ,,,,,
August 31st, 2007 at 5:04 pmJust think of all the TERRORISTS in GERMANY we have CREATED by having troops there! 50 + odd years worth.. WOWEE
Comment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
In other words, you’re claiming every true American, along with every proud and battle-tested soldier to lack the capacity for logical thought.
That’s how you’ve interpreted my response, toastedhead.
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 5:01 pm
No he hasn’t, bozo. He noted that you can’t read, which you have successfully managed to prove again with this response.
Maybe you should quit before that hole gets much deeper.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:04 pmtoasterhead,,, prove that conditions for IRAQIS would be better if we left.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:06 pmI nominate Matt.
Comment by Ringo — August 31, 2007 @ 4:59 pm
why not go youself, Wrongo? it’s just like Indiana in the summer!
August 31st, 2007 at 5:08 pmIs it me or does that CIGAR in Martinez mouth remind you about where CLINTON likes to stick those things when he is really HORNY. (maybe it’s just me)
August 31st, 2007 at 5:09 pmComment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
I think I did read. Clearly, TP stated that no good news of progress can be interpreted, only because they state so, while in the red-zone of this conflict.
If you serve in the red-zone, then you are a failure no matter what. That’s what TP is implying.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:11 pmLets get our Troops home from KOREA, GERMANY, KUWAIT, etc……..
They are overextended in these locations and have been here far longer than IRAQ,,,,,
Just think of all the TERRORISTS in GERMANY we have CREATED by having troops there! 50 + odd years worth.. WOWEE
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
Poor Scooter has just dropped today’s biggest load of troll sh!t with this wacko statement.
It is obvious he was never in combat or the military. There is a rather large difference being stationed in a locale where people are trying to kill you, than in western Europe.
But that is too logical for ol’ Scoot to comprehend.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:11 pmScooter, spoken like a true closeted Reperv. Always thinking about Bill Clinton’s p*nis.
-GSD
August 31st, 2007 at 5:11 pmtoasterhead,,, prove that conditions for IRAQIS would be better if we left.
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
how about the fact that conditions would be better for OUR OWN TROOPS if we left? Oh, that’s right, you don’t give a shit about them. You cheer their deaths.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:11 pmIt seems that everyone agrees that no matter when we leave, be it tomorrow or ten years from now, there is going to be violence, sectarian and terrorist. There also seems to be general agreement that once we do leave, there is no guarantee that whatever Iraqi government is there at that time will stay in power and govern effectively. And there also seems to be agreement that the Iraqi people ought to decide for themselves how they will be governed.
Given all that, why are we leaving our troops there now to get killed, when by all accounts, the situation isn’t going to be any more “stable” after our departure later rather than sooner? If it’s going to be just as bad later as it would be sooner, then bring our troops home now.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:12 pmIf you serve in the red-zone, then you are a failure no matter what. That’s what TP is implying.
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
your stupidity is catching up to your cowardice.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:12 pmComment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
We all realize that this is just you’re way of fishing but it’s still piss poor bait but somebody might take you up on it.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:13 pmIf it’s going to be just as bad later as it would be sooner, then bring our troops home now.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — August 31, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
don’t you get it? bush loves to kill people, any people, even American troops.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:13 pm#55 Now come on not all Republicans are closet gay, child molesting, prostitute users, homephobics with family values. Good grief no wonder Republicans are so uptight with so many fears.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:13 pmWhy Matt?
Comment by dbadass
———————————–
Why?….What do you have against Matt?
August 31st, 2007 at 5:15 pmComment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
You can project on me all of your leftist talking-point trash, but in responding to my statement that way, you are, in effect, agreeing with TP that soldiers who do the dirty work in the red-zone can report of no progress without coming under fire, or having their words of progress go unreported entirely.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:15 pmtoasterhead,,, prove that conditions for IRAQIS would be better if we left.
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
I can’t prove a future event. But I can prove that a vast majority of Iraqis want the US to pull out within a year:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/sep06/Iraq_Sep06_rpt.pdf
And a majority of foreign policy experts believe it will be better for Iraqis if we leave:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3924
And given the current conditions I already cited earlier in this thread, it’s really not possible for things to get much WORSE for Iraqis.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:15 pmProgress is apparently more of a feeling then something that can be demonstrated with facts & figures. It’s an attitude. Things in Iraq are just freshtastic!
August 31st, 2007 at 5:16 pmOHHH,,, you mean we leave other countries when they shoot or kill our TROOPS,,,, Heck why did’nt you mention this during WW2 500,000 deaths,,,? or even after when we still got GI’s killed in GERMANY or JAPAN…
I’m all for following the example of the FRENCH… just don’t understand those idiots in the past…. 500,000 deaths for what? Makes the 4,000 seem like paddycake.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:17 pmWhy?….What do you have against Matt?
Comment by Ringo — August 31, 2007 @ 5:15 pm
Nothing and you? I am curious about your stated opinion that TP should get some folks on site and you suggested Matt. Please explain
August 31st, 2007 at 5:18 pmComment by ronjazz — August 31, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
A crony of the leftist-robot army calling a poster stupid.
Riveting.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:18 pmIf you serve in the red-zone, then you are a failure no matter what.
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
So you’re saying that our men and women serving in Iraq are failures. Nice to see that you support our troops, CT_V1!
August 31st, 2007 at 5:19 pmThere are no good options in Iraq. I agree with Joe Biden. He has the best solution I have seen.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:20 pmmaybe you missed the polls about KOREANS wanting US out or the JAPANESE or the GERMANS,,,,
Why does not just MALIKI say LEAVE?,,, Like the germans or japanese or koreans or etc….
Better yet,,, why don’t we just leave,,,, all these places,,,
August 31st, 2007 at 5:20 pmIn others words, TP is claiming that soldiers having experience in the red-zone can’t conclude anything else except failure during a time of war. Being in the cutesy green-zone scrolling Thinkprogress.org, apparently, is the only rational way to defend one’s country.
and then:
I think I did read. Clearly, TP stated that no good news of progress can be interpreted, only because they state so, while in the red-zone of this conflict.
If you serve in the red-zone, then you are a failure no matter what. That’s what TP is implying.
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
Like I said, you can’t read. TP implied nothing of the kind and actually said nothing at all about the experience of the soldiers outside the Green Zone. You’re the one twisting their words.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:20 pmAs far as leaving because we are getting people killed….
I’m sure our enemies in GERMANY, JAPAN, and KOREA will be thrilled to know this. (thats all it takes?)
OSAMA was right,,,, we can’t handle the deaths….
August 31st, 2007 at 5:23 pmWhat the heck was wrong with the people of this country in WW2 putting up with 500,000 deaths? idiots
Not a photo I’d want to have folks see, given the recent closeted gay Republican scandals.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:23 pmdbadass,
This Matt’s thread so I suggest he go have a look for himself.
Seriously though, I think the best place to get a realistic picture of the situation in Iraq is from the independent journalist Michael J. Totten:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/
I also like Michael Yon:
August 31st, 2007 at 5:26 pmhttp://michaelyon-online.com/
To think that 500,000 deaths is OK over our country not being neutral then,,,, LENDLEASE was only given to the ENGLISH and not the GERMANS or the JAPANESE.
YEP,,,, we sure did not want to get involved in WW2 did we?
August 31st, 2007 at 5:26 pmMakes what BUSH did over 4,000 deaths seem like BABYCAKES.
OSAMA was right,,,, we can’t handle the deaths….
What the heck was wrong with the people of this country in WW2 putting up with 500,000 deaths? idiots
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
So you’d like to see 500,000 troop deaths in Iraq?
Wow – between you wanting to see our troops slaughtered and CT_V1 calling all of our troops failures, it’s probably a good thing this site is blocked in Iraq!
August 31st, 2007 at 5:28 pmFDR lied and 500,000 GI’s died….
makes the Bush line seem like peanuts….
And to think the REPUBLICANS in congress back then did’nt run with it….. (inconcievable)
knowing FDR did not have the country in NEUTRALITY.
We sure had a lot of SUCKER citizens back then….
August 31st, 2007 at 5:30 pmre#76 scooter
Repeat after me:
This is not WWII, because then we were ATTACKED and in the IRAQ War we are the ATTACKERS.
We are the like the GERMANY and the Iraq is like POLAND.
Keep repeating until it sinks in!
August 31st, 2007 at 5:32 pmhey toaster,,,
if WW2 was GOOD for 500,000 then IRAQ is GOOD for 4,000 right…..
Or do you not know the numerical difference between 500,000 and 4,000?
August 31st, 2007 at 5:33 pmJust count it out and you’ll see what i mean.
I suppose you read only to the point which satisfies your leftist roboto agenda, heh?
Comment by CT_V1 — August 31, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
So do you now deny having said:
in this post?
Are you denying having typed those words? Was it a namejacking or something? Or are you now lying and trying to weasel your way out of a troop-bashing statement you clearly made?
August 31st, 2007 at 5:35 pmif WW2 was GOOD for 500,000 then IRAQ is GOOD for 4,000 right…..
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
Okay, okay – we get it! You love dead soldiers. We get the point- you don’t need to beat it to death (no pun intended.)
August 31st, 2007 at 5:37 pmcritical,,,
You mean when we give LENDLEASE to ENGLAND and not GERMANY or JAPAN,,, and give 40 DESTROYERS to ENGLAND and not GERMANY or JAPAN,,, and then,,,
SURPRISE,,,,, they consider us an enemy and attack.
YEP,,, your right we were NEUTRAL and were not involved before PEARL HARBOR,,,,,
Keep thinkin your stuff… you’ll eventually get to the part where OSAMA says we brought it upon ourselves….
August 31st, 2007 at 5:38 pmtoaster ,,,
I don’t love dead soldiers any more than the citizens of this country loved 500,000 dead soldiers in WW2…
Just like them I can see when our leaders make decisions for the betterment of our country….
(imagine FDR and non-neutrality but nobody says anything about it…. 500,000 deaths too…..)
I guess i’m just like the GREATEST GENERATION ….
Thankfully they did not have too many of your persuasion….(maybe it would have saved 500,000 deaths on the other hand)
August 31st, 2007 at 5:43 pmIf their plane had been shot down, then Bush would claim that the 3 Senators would want the surge to continue.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:45 pmcould somebody out there please inform the terrorists in JAPAN, GERMANY, KOREA, and KUWAIT,,,, or anywhere else for that matter (CANADA EHHH)…
Exactly how many of our GI’s being killed in these countries is suffiecient for our country to pull them out….
They need to know as they most certainly don’t want to overdue it and kill TOO many than is necessary to get the JOB done.
I’m interested as well….
August 31st, 2007 at 5:47 pmjay,,
August 31st, 2007 at 5:49 pmAnd if they were killed in NEW ORLEANS then mayor,,, RAY NAGIN,,, (mr. chocolate) would say they wanted the war on POVERTY to continue… (especially for him)
So how many Republicans will we be sending over there on our taxpayer dollars so they can come back and say “significant progress has been made”. It’s all a crock since these guys are there for maybe two days and never leave the green zone and never talk to anyone that was not prearranged. So, they are doing nothing other than parrot what the Bush administration wants us to hear.
I as a taxpayer resent Mr. Bush using our money to pay for his dog and pony shows. If he wants to use these guys for propaganda purposes, let him do it on his own dime, or have the RNC pay for the visits.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:50 pmDuring World War II…Every able bodied man, and many women, signed up for the duration. Those that didn’t serve in the military served the war effort in the factories, farms and mines…and endured rationing. War profiteering was Anathema….nobody got a tax cut. America was united around a single goal…. to defeat hitler, tojo, and their allies. 56 million died worldwide.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:53 pmWhat is our mission in Iraq…other than strengthening Iran and their shiite allies….making a fortune for private contractors with NO Accountability…and showing insurgents World wide how to use IED’s and truckbombs to combat the technological edge of a superpower?
What big similarity exists between the Leadership in IRAQ and the Leadership in New Orleans and Philadelphia?
(not a trick question)
They all suck! (new orleans and philadelphia for LIBERALISM) IRAQ just TRIBALISM…
Hey Liberalism and Tribalism…. HMMMMMM
August 31st, 2007 at 5:53 pmbadger,,,, sounds like it was worth 500,000 deaths right…vs. 4,000 in IRAQ.
YEP sounds about right.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:55 pmWhat are we getting for our blood and treasure in Iraq.? What IS the mission??? Worth it???? not so far….unless you’re a private contractor.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:58 pmI predicted it…they were drugged. I wish some of these elected representatives would have half an idea of what goes into “dog and pony” shows.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:59 pmbilo,,,, if we have 1 more DEMOCRAT go to NEW ORLEANS and claim that the war on poverty is or was ever WORKING and just sits around a bunch of BUMS (not talking to the real people who make a city work, there probably are not any there any more)…. who looks for GLAMOUR shots with a BLACK mayor who says HIS city should stay CHOCOLATE and not HISPANIC,,, and don’t meet any non-destitute overtaxed prearranged citizen…. then we should charge the DEMOCRATS for it….
August 31st, 2007 at 5:59 pmIn others words, TP is claiming that soldiers having experience in the red-zone can’t conclude anything else except failure during a time of war. Being in the cutesy green-zone scrolling Thinkprogress.org, apparently, is the only rational way to defend one’s country.
TP gives one more example as to why they hate the troops.
Comment by CT_V1
As usual, you are making absolutely no sense. How can these guys who go to the Green Zone, see powerpoint presentations and talk to hand-picked military really know what is going on in Iraq? It’s impossible.
These “dog and pony” shows are costing the taxpayers a bundle. Is that the way you want your taxes to be spent. Oh…that was a stupid question, of course you do. Anything to prop up Bully Boy Bush is fine with you.
You are pathetically stupid.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:01 pmThose poor sapps,,,, the DOG AND PONY SHOW they put on is only half as good as the one put on by the DEMOCRATIC presidential contenders sucking up to the GAY and LESBIAN alliance.
Now that was a DOG and PONY show!
August 31st, 2007 at 6:02 pmbilo,,,
Do you think RAY NAGIN EVEN knows how to put on a Powerpoint show after his performance both before and after KATRINA?
Or is it OK for him to just run around with the latest DEMOCRATIC visitor and tell them sweet nothings? All on your dime of course.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:05 pm#100 Comment by scooter
What in gods name are you talking about. Are you comparing New Orleans to Iraq?
You trolls are getting more and more pathetic as each day goes by. I am frequently amazed at the stupid things that come out of your mouths. It would be good for a laugh occasionally if it wasn’t so sad.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:05 pmbilbo,,,, considering our track record in any major city in this country,,,,, we have about 100 more years of FUTILITY in IRAQ to go…..
Consider IRAQ a GOOD investment if we can just not give it to New Orleans or Philadelphia.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:08 pmbilbo,,, YEP
The similarities are endless….. (except IRAQ has a better future considering the leadership is TRIBALISM and not LIBERALISM)
August 31st, 2007 at 6:10 pmbilbo,, on the other hand i would think you’d be happy about the lack of progress in IRAQ,,,, Liberal policies are esctatic about the constant UNDERCLASS in these cities..
Why is IRAQ stalemate such a problem for ya?
August 31st, 2007 at 6:13 pmWe are the like the GERMANY and the Iraq is like POLAND.
Keep repeating until it sinks in!
Comment by criticalthinker
—————————————————–
Damn!….Your brain is cooked.
If I held your inverted view of reality I’d either renounce America and move away to another country or stay and take up arms against our government.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:14 pmBilbo,,,
My apologies on the all similarities of IRAQ and NEW ORLEANS……
This most clearly disparages the IRAQ’s as I think thier leadership actually wants them to do better.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:15 pmi suppose this plank thinks he looks great ’sucking’ on that cuban ? cigar
August 31st, 2007 at 6:20 pmWhy is IRAQ stalemate such a problem for ya?
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
Over 3500 dead…thousands wounded….billions squandered….World opinion of America in the tank…insurgency perfecting their skills at IED’s and spreading their knowlege worldwide…..Military unable to meet its recruiting goals…..America at risk because the national guard is in Iraq… it’s a PROBLEM for all of us!
August 31st, 2007 at 6:21 pm“Why is IRAQ stalemate such a problem for ya?
Comment by scooter”
100+ American deaths a month. That’s a problem for me. I guess it isn’t for you, though.
You are both pathetic and stupid. Don’t bother directing any further posts towards me because you are not worth the time to read or respond to.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:22 pmbilbo,,, and here i thought we were buddies.
How many deaths do we suffer in our major cities accross AMERICA? (you do have a problem with them don’t you)
I suggest we pull all law enforcment out as anybody still crazy enough to live in them or pass through them brings this upon themselves.
The terrorists who are killing each other and our police in these cities must be left to thier own devices … ALA IRAQ.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:30 pmWow that does sound bad,,,,,
How about 500,000 deaths in WW2 over a president who did more to get us involved (FDR) than BUSH did in IRAQ 4,000 deaths….
Of course we were loved by the FRENCH back then…. probably had something to do with us doing thier DIRTY work…..
Now that was a REAL problem,,,,, IRAQ is a flea on the dog in comparison.
And to think of the GREATEST GENERATION just sucking it up and doin it…… Luckily for them,,,, a few more of your persuasion were not around… ehhh (or unlucky for them as it might have prevented 500,000 unnecessary deaths,, right?)
August 31st, 2007 at 6:35 pmHow many deaths do we suffer in our major cities accross AMERICA?
More every year since Bush became president. During the previous 8 years of peace and prosperity…crime and deaths were headed downwards.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:37 pmYou suggest that the Billions of Americans who live in cities are crazy. That’s crazy!
Badger
The deaths in our cities are no crazier than the deaths in IRAQ,,,, probably similar %’s considering the #’s on both sides.
Of course the cities are supposed to kill each other in high percentages,, (new orleans, philadelphia) but IRAQ,,,
Well everyone knows that place is a beacon of peace and prosperity…. thus the fixation on one and not the other.
Kinda sad,,,, expecting more of IRAQ than New Orleans..
I’m sure it’s all about the leadership,,,, We as a people expect MORE from MALIKI than we do from RAY NAGIN…
Of course Maliki did’nt claim BAGHDAD is a “olive” city did he.
As for the higher DEATHS during BUSHS term,,,, thats kinda obvious is’nt it…… Democrats killing Democrats helps him RIGHT?
August 31st, 2007 at 6:47 pmCaption:
“Sho shee, I schnag zhish RPG right between my teesh!
August 31st, 2007 at 6:49 pmHowsh zhat for schecurity, huh?”
something very odd about these little field trips to Iraq.
very invasion of the body snatchers.
let’s hope none of the Democratic presidential candidates go over- lest they return as pod people too.
yes. yes. I see…. progress. yes. progress. we are making. progress…
August 31st, 2007 at 6:57 pmThe terrorists who are killing each other and our police in these cities must be left to thier own devices … ALA IRAQ.
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 6:30 pm
So now you support terrorists taking over two American cities.
First you want 500,000 Americans dead in Iraq, now you want terrorists in NOLA and Philly. How much less patriotic can you get?
August 31st, 2007 at 6:59 pmtoast,
I want this country to be the same society that understood that 500,000 deaths in WW2 was warranted. (worth the cost,, buddy)
HMMMM 4,000 vs 500,000 HMMMMM
(you still don’t get it that AMERICA back then had no LIBERALS or YOU,,, thus they could support the president, even when the country was not neutral and he LED them to war)
As to wanting the terrorists in NOLA and Philly,,,, they are already there….. Been there for about 40 years or don’t you know the death rates? Maybe even add NJ.
The fact you are fixated on 100 GI deaths recently in IRAQ and turn around and ignore worse in our cities for 50 years reveals MILES about YOUR patriotism.
Of course the DEMOCRATIC talking points don’t concentrate on the LIBERAL failings in our cities do they?
August 31st, 2007 at 7:14 pmIf they HAD been shot down, would Bush have declared “Mission Accomplished”?
Sheesh, what LIARS!!!
August 31st, 2007 at 7:15 pmyou still don’t get it that AMERICA back then had no LIBERALS .
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
Are you kidding..????
.FDR promoted an alphabet soup of GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS to rescue America from the Great Depression, and was elected FOUR TIMES. Hint: he wasn’t elected by “you’re on your own” conservatives.
August 31st, 2007 at 7:31 pmI want this country to be the same society that understood that 500,000 deaths in WW2 was warranted. (worth the cost,, buddy)
HMMMM 4,000 vs 500,000 HMMMMM
(you still don’t get it that AMERICA back then had no LIBERALS or YOU,,, thus they could support the president, even when the country was not neutral and he LED them to war)
Comment by scooter
The difference is that Germany was an enemy by way of DECLARED WAR with Japan. It was NECESSARY to fight Hitler and Tojo.
It was NOT NECESSARY to invade Iraq. That was the CHOICE of Bush and his PNAC WAR CRIMINALS.
Wars of CHOICE and LIES are the SUPREME WAR CRIME.
Bush and Cheney and Libby and Rummy and Gonzo and Rice, along with the PROPAGANDA of Fox “news” need to be tried for WAR CRIMES.
August 31st, 2007 at 7:31 pmbadger and ARN
The fact that FDR LED us to war,,, we were not neutral LENDLEASE to ENGLAND destroyers to ENGLAND…..
Is as much if not more than BUSH did to PUSH us to war with IRAQ.
The actions of FDR before PEARL HARBOR leading this nation to war were NOT jumped upon by his adversaries after PEARL HARBOR. Nobody did an investigation to determine how a NEUTRAL country can provide LENDLEASE to ENGLAND and not GERMANY. No media ran stories on it,,, even with deaths rising faster than flies…. (NO LIBERALS BACK THEN)
The people understood (like conservatives do) that the president was doing the right thing back then,,,(even in more trying times).
As for the programs….. If this country gets in a DEPRESSION like they had,,, I’m guessing even the staunchest conservative will look kindly upon GOVT help.
August 31st, 2007 at 7:42 pmSorry, FDR’s bringing us to war was NOT a war of AGGRESSION and CHOICE, but one of DEFENSE against Germany and Japan.
THAT is the difference. Bush’s war of AGGRESSION is NOT “defense”.
SEVERAL of his staff said that they had plans to invade Iraq BEFORE 9/11 and used it as the EXCUSE to do so…
And we were a COALITION called the “Allies”, not the “coalition of the ‘willing’”, i.e. WILLING TO BE WAR CRIMINALS.
Which is WHY they passed legislation exempting themselves from WAR CRIMES declared internationally.
Bush LIED about WMD’s and the 9/11 connections to Iraq, as did his entire PNAC administration…
Bush and his PNAC buddies are WAR CRIMINALS and TRAITORS to the USA.
And Osama is STILL FREE 6 years later.
And the Bin Ladens were the FUNDERS of Bush’s failed oil companies..
August 31st, 2007 at 7:49 pmWell we’re going to need them for the invasion of Iran.
It’s less than 22 days away.
Comment by toasterhead — August 31, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
Source and proof of this please……
August 31st, 2007 at 7:52 pmRepubelickers love sucking on those big, long, cylindrical objects, don’t they?
August 31st, 2007 at 7:59 pmFDR and a war of DEFENSE…. tell that to your little PACIFIST brethren….
FDR lied and 500,000 died…. You guys would have run with a moniker like that,,,,
Our allies were countries that were already at WAR or overrun…. or getting something out of it… like we promised the ARABS and then renege on…. some allies!
Japan EMPEROR was not even prosecuted for WAR crimes.
(how could the good LIBERAL folks miss a good one like that)
FDR’s war was funded by IOU’s to ENGLAND already in war,,, or don’t you know we were never reimbursed for LENDLEASE… (never intended to)
YEP,,, plenty there for your ILK to milk for all it was worth…
August 31st, 2007 at 8:01 pmfortunatly your ilk were not there…. NO LIBERALS
NOBODY jumped on Bush when he went after Bin Laden and the Taliban. Most of America and the world saw this Action as Justified.
August 31st, 2007 at 8:01 pmIt’s when he droped the ball at Tora Bora, and launched an attack on Iraq, a country with NO CONNECTION to 911 that the criticism started.
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007
You, sir, are a major idiot.
August 31st, 2007 at 8:06 pmNOBODY jumped on Bush when he went after Bin Laden and the Taliban. Most of America and the world saw this Action as Justified.
It’s when he droped the ball at Tora Bora, and launched an attack on Iraq, a country with NO CONNECTION to 911 that the criticism started.
Comment by Badger
Exactly.
And “scooter” says there were “no liberals”.
That, being a LIE in itself, pretty much destroys “scooter”’s credibility concerning anything else…
August 31st, 2007 at 8:09 pmI just wonder if those three Republican senators kiss their mommas with those lying lips, especially after all the ass kissing they’ve done of Bush and Cheney? Ewwwwww.
August 31st, 2007 at 8:32 pmSource and proof of this please……
Comment by hacker bob — August 31, 2007 @ 7:52 pm
This, also reported on Juan Cole: http://icga.blogspot.com/2007/08/post-labor-day-product-rollout-war-with.html
And I’m still extremely curious about the $4.7 billion in option calls that come due Sept 21 – someone or something believes that the stock market is going to tank between now and the 21st:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b96_1188081846&p=1
It could all be bullcrap, but the confluence is certainly troublesome.
August 31st, 2007 at 8:43 pmI want this country to be the same society that understood that 500,000 deaths in WW2 was warranted. (worth the cost,, buddy)
HMMMM 4,000 vs 500,000 HMMMMM
(you still don’t get it that AMERICA back then had no LIBERALS or YOU,,, thus they could support the president, even when the country was not neutral and he LED them to war)
Comment by scooter — August 31, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
I want that, too. I want us to be that society as well. At the time, we were fighting two countries led by people with fascist ideologies who were trying to establish regional and eventually global empires.
Now, we ARE the country led by people with fascist ideologies trying to establish a global empire.
I want our society to go back to the morality it had when we fought against injustice, rather than for it.
August 31st, 2007 at 8:46 pmYes, we saw significant progress.
On this trip, we encoutered less bullets flying past our heads, than on the last trip.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:20 pmThere is much progress in Iraq. Of course, most of its been on the side of the insurgency but its still progress.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:24 pmI see progress in the housing market too.
For Apartment complex owners.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:28 pmIf you want an example of progress in Iraq, then consider this. Last time I visited Iraq, on the helicopter ride back the wind blew my ceeegar out.
:\
This time, everytime the wind blew it out it got re-ignited by a passing incendiary round.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:35 pmkeep saying it ’till
it comes true
the surge is working
the surge is working
the surge is working
heh…
August 31st, 2007 at 9:52 pmKool-aid forever!!!!!!
August 31st, 2007 at 10:16 pmWhy yes, Clinton’s cigar was inside of me.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:45 pmWow old talking point there, something about 4,000 deaths is way less than the previous wars. Love that talking point.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:49 pmWow. The trolls are so out of ammunition on this one that they’re talking about Monica Lewinsky, in a thread about 3 senators almost getting shot down in Iraq.
That is an unquestionable confession of defeat.
August 31st, 2007 at 11:12 pmDoes this remind anyone of the knight in Monty Python & the Holy Grail, who was guarding the bridge, and even after losing all four limbs in a sword fight, kept challenging his opponent as if nothing had changed?
So was this another ten to fourteen hour stay in the most heavily fortified area of Iraq? Since Iraq is just slightly larger in land area than California, and has a slightly larger population than Texas, then perhaps an extended layover at LAX or DFW would be sufficient for the frustrated traveler to submit a definitive, detailed statement about the current conditions of that entire state.
Couldn’t they have just as well watched the same PowerPoint presentation at home and received the same information? And where is the video footage of these members of Congress venturing outside the bubble (aka The Green Zone)? The Wizard of Oz would have been proud.
September 1st, 2007 at 1:13 amWhy yes, Clinton’s cigar was inside of me.
Comment by Monica’s Vagina
Why yes, “Gannon”’s johnson was inside of ME…
September 1st, 2007 at 3:23 amNow they know the “surge” is working because….they’ve been shot at? Did it ever occur to them that the ordinance shot at them was a message that the insugency is still here and going strong? No, all they were interested in was their little war story. The more subtle point of this “incident” was lost on these three horsemen of the Apocalypse. Mel, just kick back and smoke your dog turd because you don’t have a clue. Blood is on your hands and you can’t see it.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:12 amUnfortunately, for those of us actually familiar with the “incident,” the press reports are incorrect. The plane did not have RPGs or rockets fired at it; rather, the crew observed tracer rounds several thousand feet below the aircraft fired more than 1 nautical mile away. The “rockets” the Members saw were countermeasure flares. No rockets, no mortars, no RPGs (which, by the way, don’t have sufficient range to be fired at an aircraft flying at that altitude).
As for Congressional delegation time “locked in the Green Zone,” again … check your facts. There have been 38 delegations to Iraq this year, consisting of 140 Members of Congress and 139 Congressional staffers, for a total of 63 days in-country. 27 of those 38 delegations spent a majority of their time outside of Baghdad.
So before you all froth at the mouth and rant and rave and pontificate, please at least try to get ther facts before you spout.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:08 amHeads-up sheeple! These politicians and the main-stream media are like magicians, we are being misdirected! The true terrorist threat lies at our southern border. As of Saturday, Sept. 1st, our border is open to allow Mexican truckers to haul anywhere in the U.S. Terrorist have already been caught trying to enter as Mexican illegals ! With 40′ semi trailers, imagine the WMD’s that can be hauled in and placed wherever chosen!
September 1st, 2007 at 2:19 pmWe need to do a better job of training those Iraqis so they do not miss.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:08 pmWe started with 100,000-120,000 American troops.
We trained 350,000 Iraqi troops.
We pay 120,000+ mercenaries. (not with the original US forces)
We have added at least 20,000 American troops.
That is a ’surge’ of at least, 490,000 new troops.
The total number, fighting for the Iraqi government…appx. 610,000 with 28,000+ more planned, making a total of 638,000.
By all accounts, Iraq is worse off than ever.
——————————–
Please tell us what is working about this surge?
More and more officers are coming out saying, IT IS NOT WORKING!!! Those are not liberals or Democrats, most are life long conservative Repubs.
70% of Iraqis want us out, the majority of the Iraqi Parliment want us out, 70% of our troops want us out, almost 70% of the American people want us out.
Now, as for sucess. More troops dying than any months since nov. 204. 127 last month, 20 confirmed and 12 uncomfirmed already for this month.
Almost 2000 Iraqis last month. 276 already this month. Turkey is ready to invade Kirkuk, in N. Iraq. One provence has tripled in attacks and it’s commander is asking for more troops. Bagdad is out of control in 3/4 ths of it’s city. The ‘green zone’ is being attacked so many times that the people have to wear vests and helmets all of the time, the parliment was hit last week, 1 1/2 million are homeless in Iraq, 2 million are refugees and 1-3/4 million are dead. They still don’t have sewer, electricity, potable water, adequate medical aid or decent infrastructure.
Torture and death squads continue.
However, good news!! The largest, most expensive and most fortified embassy in the world will be complete Sept 2007, in bagdad, complete with swimming pools, electricity, water supply, sewer system, tennis , volleyball, and basketball courts, 16,000square foot embassador’s quarters, 9,000 sq ft aide’s quarters, and it’s the USA’s. Can you imagine how happy that makes all of those Iraqis?
So wake up, stop believing people that are putting out propaganda to keep the war going or people that have never been out to Falujah or unescorted in Baghdad.
It doesn’t take a mental giant to figure it out…..they lied then…they are lying now. They need that carbon law that gives 80% of the Iraqi oil to the US oil corps.
————————————–
HOW CAN THE ‘SURGE’ BE WORKING?
This is a list of only US deaths in Iraq. As you can see, it doesn’t add up to the reduction of US deaths that is being touted by the leaders and their media.
March April May June July August
07 81 104 126 101 79 81
06 31 76 69 61 43 65
05 35 52 80 78 54 85
04 52 135 80 42 54 66
03 65 74 37 30 48 35
Another thing that jumped out at me is this:
Wounded and medical evacuations As reported by the DoD as of 6/30/2007
Wounded – Medical Air Transport Required 5,798 150 1,931 70 —7,949
Diseases/Other Medical – Medical Air Transport Required 17,532 620 1,302 911—– 20,365
17,532 is Army. On ground in Iraq. The next highest is the marines with 1,302.
Why are there so many disease air evacs?
Why mostly on ground, in Iraq, troops?
Water borne disease? Food poisoning? Depleted uranium? Vaccinations?
September 2nd, 2007 at 1:53 amI want that, too. I want us to be that society as well. At the time, we were fighting two countries led by people with fascist ideologies who were trying to establish regional and eventually global empires.
September 3rd, 2007 at 12:36 amOh I love it when a republicon tries so desperatly to muddy the waters when arguing. Why is anyone dignifying such a silly disengenous creyton like this anyway?
September 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 amUm, what is it with the oral fixation of phallic symbols? that’s a BIG cigar!
September 4th, 2007 at 10:33 amI wanna a cigar like he has )
September 13th, 2007 at 6:14 am