Rove: Bush Will Be Remembered As A ‘Far-Sighted Leader’
Rove: Bush Will Be Remembered As A ‘Far-Sighted Leader’
Yesterday, outgoing White House adviser Karl Rove penned a piece in the National Review devoted to extolling President Bush’s greatness and predicting that “history will provide a more clear-eyed verdict on this president’s leadership than the anger of current critics would suggest.”
The White House liked it so much that it forwarded the piece to its press list, with the e-mail subject: “IN CASE YOU MISSED IT: The Long View.” An excerpt from Rove’s piece:
President Bush will be viewed as a far-sighted leader who confronted the key test of the 21st century.
He will be judged as a man of moral clarity who put America on wartime footing in the dangerous struggle against radical Islamic terrorism. [...]
President Bush will be seen as a compassionate leader who used America’s power for good. [...]
I have come to understand true leadership leans into the wind. It tackles big challenges with uncertain outcomes rather than taking on simple, sure tasks. It does what is right, regardless of what the latest poll or focus group says. History demands much of America and its leaders and I am confident it will judge the 43rd president as a man more than worthy of the great office the American people twice entrusted to him.
If Rove’s track record is any indication, this latest prediction will also likely turn out to be incorrect. In 2006, roughly a week before the midterm election, Rove predicted “a Republican Senate and Republican House” by claiming sole access to “THE math.” In Nov. 2000, he claimed the “election will not be close” and predicted Bush will “win enough states to get about 50 more Electoral College votes than he needs to win.”
Rove joins Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT), who in July predicted that Bush’s “ratings among the historians will be greater than his ratings in the polls today,” and Rush Limbaugh, who said in May that historians will “place George Bush in the upper echelon of presidents who had a great vision for America.”
But historians are already debating Bush’s legacy. Rolling Stone recently wrote, “Many historians are now wondering whether Bush, in fact, will be remembered as the very worst president in all of American history.”
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Worst Math, ever.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:26 pmI have come to understand true leadership leans into the wind.
Or in this case, pisses into the wind.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:26 pmI don’t even know where to begin.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:26 pmAnd Paris Hilton will be known as an intellectual powerhouse.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:29 pmAnd Porky Pig will be know as a great speaker.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:29 pmAnd OJ Simpson will be known as a loving husband.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:31 pmI guess all we have to do is consider the source of that statement, puts it in perspective.
Like having Dubya telling Brownie he did a heck’uva job.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pmAnd Michael Vick as a friend of animals.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pmIf there’s ever peaceful democracy in the Middle East, President Bush WILL be viewed as a far-sighted leader.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pmWhatever floats your boat of lies Turd-Blossom > lol.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:33 pmRove is still delusional…..the American public has woken up to the lies,
September 1st, 2007 at 2:33 pmdeceit and manipulation named Karl Rove.
The main reason Bush is a big fat zero, out of thousands, is because even though the goal was to oust Saddam and spread democracy through the middle east, most people were smart enough to know you don’t spread democracy though war and that invading and destabilizing Iraq would have disastrous consequences for us and the middle east. Iran is the big winner out of Bush’s fiasco. If Bush attacks Iran (a sure bet in my mind considering how stupid Bush really is), the rational for Bush’s attack will be because of the consequences of his invasion of Iraq. Think about that.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:33 pmyou’ve got to be kidding.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:34 pmIf there’s ever peaceful democracy in the Middle East, President Bush WILL be viewed as a far-sighted leader.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
“IF” being the operative word, Jakie. Plus, it is not the job of the US to export Democracy. We don’t know how to manage it ourselves.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:34 pmFor the record, Abraham Lincoln had very high negative polling right before his night out at Ford’s Theatre too.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:35 pmJapan and Germany are just two shining examples of the US exporting Democracy
September 1st, 2007 at 2:36 pmFor the record, Abraham Lincoln had very high negative polling right before his night out at Ford’s Theatre too.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
JAKE, do you know something we don’t know? Who is going to do the deed? Anyone you know?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:36 pmWith eyes of a blind man and a brain like pea.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pmLauren:
I was alive when Franklin Roosevelt was President. I think Bush will be seen as great, if not more so.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pmAnd Jake D. will be known as an complex thinker.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pmIf there’s ever peaceful democracy in the Middle East, President Bush WILL be viewed as a far-sighted leader.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
And Hell will have frozen over.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:38 pmFor the record, I don’t want Bush assassinated. I am simply pointing out history has judged some Presidents favorably despite their unfavorable ratings being pretty high too (especially in the South ; )
September 1st, 2007 at 2:39 pmJake: bush more than great? Why that’s greaterer, isn’t it?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:40 pmbush’sbrainondrugs and Largo:
What law school did you graduate from?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:41 pmwas alive when Franklin Roosevelt was President. I think Bush will be seen as great, if not more so.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007
——————————————————————————
A Legacy of Lies is greatness?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:41 pmJake: If you were alive during FDR, you are at least 62 years old. The answer to your vain hope, that history will resurrect your failed leader will NEVER be revealed to you. Now that’s depressing, isn’t it?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:42 pmThey’ve covered themselves nicely. If there’s ever peace in the M.E. Rove/GWB will take credit for it. No matter how many years in the future it is. If there isn’t peace Rove will say it’s because the next Pres didn’t continue killing people in the M.E. If there’s ever an attack from the M.E. it will be because you stopped fighting them there so they came over “here”. If there isn’t another attack it will be as a result of the current war in Iraq & the next war in Iran. No matter what happens it’s all because of GWB. I agree, though I put the blame/credit a little differently then Rove would.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:42 pmJake: I’ve been practicing law for 27 years and I am licensed in two states.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:44 pmso, F*ck Off.
Lauren:
FDR lied during WWII as well. Thank God, or we’d all be speaking German.
bush’sbrainondrugs:
I’m 75 — how old are you?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:44 pmJake: 54 and tired of the boring commentary. Good nite.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:45 pmIf there’s ever peaceful democracy in the Middle East, President Bush WILL be viewed as a far-sighted leader.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
If there’s not, you always have Bill Clinton.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:46 pmYou still didn’t answer WHERE you graduated from law school.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:46 pmJake: Le Jurat Non Curat Lex (The law does not deal with trifles).
September 1st, 2007 at 2:48 pmHow’s your Latin?
Good night, bush’sbrainondrugs — sorry to see you tire so quickly — so much for “complex” thinking, huh?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:49 pm“Farsighted”, aka stigmatism which means unable to see things up close, and also caused by myopia.
I’d say that’s DEAD-ON.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:49 pmIf there’s ever peaceful democracy in the Middle East,…
I’m not a holdin my breath. Purple looks terrible on me.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:50 pmJake: Next time I do voir dire, I’ll be thinking of using a strike or two in my six-pack of pre-emptories, against anyone named Jake. Convinced, yet?
September 1st, 2007 at 2:50 pmI know enough Latin to know that ad hominem attacks are never appropriate in debate.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:50 pmI’m convinced you need some rest. Good night, bush’sbrainondrugs.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:52 pmJake: I’m convinced you need to get your head out of your ass.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:53 pmYou will note that I never resort to personal attacks. Good night, bush’sbrainondrugs.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:53 pmBush’s legacy will make the dark side of the moon shine by comparison.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:57 pmMy concern is that the Bush Library will control who has access to his records. They will attempt to limit which hiatorians can see the papers. I have heard people say if things work out 40 years from now Bush will be vindicated. That is ridiculous. That’s like saying that Hitler led German into becoming a prosperous democratic country, because 40 years after his death it became one.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:07 pmThere are too many lawyers in America.
Comment by CT_V1 — September 1, 2007 @ 3:03 pm
There are too many Americans in Iraq.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:08 pmJake D., you have the consolation of knowing that GWB is RIGHT NOW the 75th best president the US has ever had.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:08 pmI beg your pardon, Mr. Rove! Someone should reach out and smack that boy’s mouth for vomitting such utter crap in public view.
Here’s Bush’s Legacy:
Squandered the nations resources on an illegal war – Damn Spendrift!
Modifies the Fourth Amendment with a backdoor mechanism – Damn Tyrant!
OBL is still at large – Damn Loser!
September 1st, 2007 at 3:09 pmAnd I’m convinced you need to go back to overcharging people hundreds of dollars an hour for a service that merits $20.
Comment by CT_V1 — September 1, 2007 @ 3:09 pm
What happened? Did your PubDef try to charge you for his parking ticket while defending your jaywalking ticket?
September 1st, 2007 at 3:12 pmFunn “jake” claims FDR’s death in April 1945 had an affect on the out come of WW2, which only one other human being though could change the course history was on,
TOO bad for “jake” and his kind that person also died during April 1945…..
September 1st, 2007 at 3:14 pmFar-sighted? He has brought such unbelievable sadness, intolerance, and destruction to so many people in so many places both here and abroad. His legagcy is forever etched in the faces we see on the news every day; from New Orleans to Baghdad.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:14 pmAnd I’m convinced you need to go back to overcharging people hundreds of dollars an hour for a service that merits $20.
Comment by CT_V1 — September 1, 2007 @ 3:09 pm
What happened to the Republican mantra that the economy dictates the value of a service? If that’s the case then the prices charged by lawyers are their economic value. If they were overcharging then hundreds of lawyers would swoop in & undercut them reaping huge rewards & tons of business. If there is too much business so no need to undercut then the law schools would be packed. Start making sense.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:17 pmHuh. I always thought that Bush was near-sighted. I have seen him wearing readers, though, so maybe he is far-sighted.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:17 pmclif:
What are you talking about? I said “FDR lied” during WWII, not “FDR died . . .”.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:18 pmI know enough Latin to know that ad hominem attacks are never appropriate in debate.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
Nor are lies and fabrications, jake. You are an old fool.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:20 pmSorry son But YOU have NO PROOF of FDR Lying either
Just stupid right wing attack noise,
But you fooles will back the worst president EVER as long as the kool-aid is administered won’t ya?
September 1st, 2007 at 3:22 pmMake some sense, lefty.
Comment by CT_V1 — September 1, 2007 @ 3:14 pm
sense is entirely wasted on a senseless fool like you, as you prove with every lame-brained, drug-addled post you make. Hitler loved tools like you, as does his godson, Bush.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:22 pmO.K., clif, at least we are talking about “lying” rather than “dying” now. Try reading “Roosevelt’s Secret War: FDR and World War II Espionage” by Joseph E. Persico, and then get back to me about “NO PROOF”.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pmJake is a lying plagairist who stole a real vet’s biography in a pathetic atempt to pose as a Korean War veteran. He is not old enought to have been alive during FDR’s time in office. Unless FDR stands for F*ucking Dumass Republican.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:28 pm“Now, I’m waiting for TP to ban you.
Comment by CT_V1″
Only because you can’t win a argument based on logic or reason.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:31 pmFor the record, I am 75 years old, born in 1932. FDR was President of the United States from 1933-1945. Anyone NOT on the “Ignore List” who wants to discuss that, or the topic, let me know.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:31 pmHitler was a far sighted leader too. He and the Nazis, just like Bush and his Neocons, saw the Third Reich ruling a peaceful world for a thousand years – if not forever more.
Has History vindicated Hitler yet?
September 1st, 2007 at 3:35 pmThe lying election-stealing, war-mongering democracy-destroying torturing Bush will be remembered as the worst traitor in American history. Traitor to our Bill of Rights. Traitor to our Constitution. Traitor to America.
Bush’s fellow gangsters: Rove, Dead-eye, Rumsfeld, Cunning Rice, et al are also some of the most worthless beings to ever walk upright…
September 1st, 2007 at 3:36 pmBush’s legacy will decline with time as more is discovered about his incompetence and crimes. It will never come back. He will be remembered as the worst President ever, by a wide margin.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:41 pmHey, they can dream can’t they. It’s pretty much all they have left.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:42 pmGeorgie Purgie, Pudding and Pie!
September 1st, 2007 at 3:42 pmWhere does the truth in Iraq Lie?
Sorry Jakey boy but I would believe very little that a public appologist for Nelson Rockefeller (especiall one who served him for over a decade) would write attacking FDR, you right wingers stick together and lie for each other way too much hence the main theme of this thread……
September 1st, 2007 at 3:42 pmIf there’s ever peaceful democracy in the Middle East, President Bush WILL be viewed as a far-sighted leader.
Comment by Jake D.
And when World War III breaks out due to Bush’s actions, what will he be viewed as then Jake?
September 1st, 2007 at 3:43 pmFor the record, I am 75 years old, born in 1932. FDR was President of the United States from 1933-1945. Anyone NOT on the “Ignore List†who wants to discuss that, or the topic, let me know.
Comment by Jake D.
You’re a liar Jake. As anyone who has been here for more than two weeks already knows. Of course anyone who has been here more than two weeks is on your “ignore list”.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:43 pm‘Far-Sighted Leader’????
September 1st, 2007 at 3:49 pmFor one thing Bush was never elected, but only appointed.. in the eyes of many this does not make him and his thug administration a leader. Second, how about criminal instead of far sighted? The masses have been murdered, tortured, raped and our treasury has been robbed by this bunch of lying thugs while our infrastructure continues to crumble. Rove is making an effort to rewrite history, playing down the horrific true facts.
Anyone NOT on the “Ignore List†who wants to discuss that, or the topic, let me know.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
Thought the topic, was the re-writing of history to caste Karl Rove, as a farsighted visionary, instead of the underhanded sneak thief he is?
September 1st, 2007 at 3:50 pmAnd as the Presidential teabag rhythmically slaps Karl’s chin(s), George W. is heard to utter, “Heckuva job, Rovie!”
September 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pm“My concern is that the Bush Library will control who has access to his records. They will attempt to limit which hiatorians can see the papers.”
The Democratic President will have the ability to release the blocks on Bush’s papers the same as he/she will be able to do with Bush’s father.
Once the public really knows of all the crimes that have been committed by the Bush Crime Family, I suspect that historians will want to delete his name from history in shame.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pmHi guys:
There is a brand new site called TPZoo that all the refugee complainers from TP. are now hanging out. You know the ones, the no life ladies and the out and out homo crowd like Eggregious and Spudge_Boy. You know how those two like it.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pmSo go on over and enjoy conversation like squirrel pictures, tomato’s, and of course, Gregg’s favorite bath house.
There, Spudge_Boy, delete this.
“Now, I’m waiting for TP to ban you.
Comment by CT_V1″
Ohhh…and I bet he’s really scared. You moronic trolls all sound like you are 12 years old.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:54 pmHas History vindicated Hitler yet?
Comment by Abby — September 1, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
The answer to your question is an unqualified “Yes”. See page 123 of: “Bush Memoirs – The Abu Ghraib Debacle”.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:54 pmFor the record, Abraham Lincoln had very high negative polling right before his night out at Ford’s Theatre too.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
I don’t think they had much in the way of modern polling going on in 1865. Nice try, though.
“Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?”
September 1st, 2007 at 3:54 pmKKKarl predicts, eh? He’s so over.
As Bill Maher said, “You know what, Nostradamus, hand over the Magic 8 Ball!”
September 1st, 2007 at 3:55 pmI have given up hope that the democrats will take Bush, et al to the ‘woodshed of accountability’ to provide my so-longed-for feeling of vindication and schadenfreude.
I must now rely upon the world to openly, and in a hostile manner socially shun all Bush 43 family, and administration members. That would be good enough for me.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:59 pmGW BOTCH will go down in history as the first puppet president serving at the pleasure of a VP!!!
Dick(head) (Corporate Criminal) Cheney phucked his tiny-brained chimp prez into oblivion just like a cruel organ grinder (forgive the pun) phucks his monkey on a nightly basis.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:59 pmIf anyone wants to see how Dubya and his Keystone Klowns will be judged, I recommend Robert Dallek’s book, “Nixon and Kissenger”. Dallek paints a vivid portrait of two clever, insecure men, each wanting a place in history.
You could interchange “Dubya and Rover, Dubya and Rummy, Dubya and Darth, Dubya and Gonzo, Dubya and Condi” for almost any passage in it. Very creepy stuff.
It was taken from actual history as well as tapes and memos; not projected stuff, things as they were said and as they were done.
Maybe an insight to what the future holds for our trolls’ current heroes.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:59 pmI agree that Bush will be remembered as far-sighted–just ask his opthamologist. Lots of people our age need glasses.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:01 pm“I have come to understand true leadership leans into the wind. ”
Then takes a leak and spits ?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:07 pmConsider the source. Karl Rove is the absolute personification of a bullsh*t artist.
The man defines the phrase: “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t.”
September 1st, 2007 at 4:07 pmin comment #59, Jake quotes Joseph E. Persico. come on! Persico was a very poor revisionist historian, who as an author, played loose with facts and citations to support his arguments. he has zero credibility in academia and the historical community.
academic and peer reviews of his work note things like, “Persico gives a “full and rich biography” but shows “occasional recklessness and arrogance.” and “…the most glaring weakness … is the complete absence of footnotes and references.” This failure “jeopardizes the book’s credibility and reliability.”
pick someone with credibility and peer recognition when you are attempting to revise history to support the neoconservative worldview. sheesh. even Rush does this stuff better than Persico.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:07 pmMaybe an insight to what the future holds for our trolls’ current heroes.
Comment by upside00 — September 1, 2007 @ 3:59 pm
“[O]ur trolls’ current heroes [sic]” will hopefully see a history that includes the view from a jail cell at The Hague for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
That’s the BIG ASS DIFFERENCE between egotistical phucks from the past and the completely CRIMINAL phucks in this Unadminstration!!!
September 1st, 2007 at 4:08 pmFor the record, Abraham Lincoln had very high negative polling right before his night out at Ford’s Theatre too.
Comment by Jake D.
…………………..
Well gee Jake,
What are you suggesting here, from the record?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:08 pmWhen’s ROve getting his Medal of FREEDOM!?!?!?!?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:08 pmMaybe an insight to what the future holds for our trolls’ current heroes.
Comment by upside00 — September 1, 2007 @ 3:59 pm
“[O]ur trolls’ current heroes [sic]” will hopefully see a history that includes the view from a jail cell at The Hague for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
That’s the BIG ASS DIFFERENCE between egotistical phucks from the past and the completely CRIMINAL phucks in this Unadministration!!!
September 1st, 2007 at 4:09 pmSorry for the double post…this place is creepy sometimes…with the updates you know…?!?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:10 pmBrian in Kabul:
I didn’t mean it literally. Would this have been better: “historians were debating Lincoln’s legacy before Ford’s Theatre too”? Or, maybe if Rolling Stone were published in the South back then, it would have published “Many historians are now wondering whether Lincoln, in fact, will be remembered as the very worst president in all of American history.â€
September 1st, 2007 at 4:10 pmGeorge W. Bush will go down in history along the with great humanitarians of the past 100 years, including Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic and Ayatollah Khomeini.
-Chimpy’s Official Revisionist Historian, Richard Head.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:11 pmThen takes a leak and spits ?
Comment by rehbock — September 1, 2007 @ 4:07 pm
…right into the eye of the wind storm and then take his stinky, disgusting habit and himself out of the people’s white house.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pmWhen’s ROve getting his Medal of FREEDOM!?!?!?!?
Comment by AVGVSTVS — September 1, 2007 @ 4:08 pm
If the past recipients are examples, I would have to put the value of that little trinket right up there with the sheepskin Dubya got from Yale (thanks to Paps Bush) or maybe that inflatable codpiece from the “Mission Accomplished” Redneck swagger we all remember so well!
September 1st, 2007 at 4:14 pmkip:
At the very least, it’s better than “NO PROOF” ; )
September 1st, 2007 at 4:15 pmPRESIDENT George W. Bush will be remembered as one of the BEST PRESIDENTS in AMERICAN History… and PRESIDENT Bush owes a debt of GRATITUDE to The HONORABLE Karl Rove!
September 1st, 2007 at 4:18 pmComment by AVGVSTVS — September 1, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
Congratulations! I hear you’re getting the AG nomination after Gonzo’s Last Montreaux.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:24 pmI’m no opthomologist but doesn’t that mean he can’t see things that are right in front of his face
September 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm#86
The damndest thing of it all, is that it has WORKED. (baffling with bull*hit that is).
How long will it take to re-educate the victims of the bafflement, like our trolls here.
Some will remain in denial forever. I’m not sure Rove is one of them, since I’ve never believed that HE believed his own Bull*hit. That’s where the real evil lies.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:27 pmOh, that I could live long enough to see rove proven incorrect.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:28 pmgwb will be judged an inept, bumbling fool who can’t complete a sentence without checking his ‘cheat sheet’.
Jake, if you are 75 years old and all you have to do with your sad little life is troll on blog sites, then you are pitiful. Why don’t you go over to some of your more idealogical friends sites, like Malkin and the others and leave the rest of us alone.
This administration will go down as the worst in american history bar none.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:28 pmActually, sconset, I haven’t been posting here as much as I used to. I also think that the Clinton Administration was far worse ; )
September 1st, 2007 at 4:33 pmJake, unfortunately you won’t take your head out of your ass to realize this, but the Big Dog was not only approximately 1000x the President that W is but also 1000x the man.
The best part of W ran down Barb’s leg and you idolize him, what does that make you?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:39 pmActually, sconset, I haven’t been posting here as much as I used to. I also think that the Clinton Administration was far worse ; )
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 4:33 pm
Lets do a quickie-footsie-bathroom-GOPr-shuffle comparison, oh great nazi-lockstep trolling GOPr from the wide-red-yonder.
Clinton clears the national debt and generates a budget surplus in 8 years.
Bush squanderes the surplus and hurls the economy into record deficits in 6 years.
Clinton had an affair with an intern in the oval office.
Bush abrogates the Fourth Amendment authorizing “illegal searches and seizure” with a stroke of the pen in the oval office.
[...]
Tell me, tell me, trolling GOPr, who’s the fairest of them all?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:45 pmJake D., I say the current administration is far worse than the previous one. To wit: It has parlayed a record treasury surplus into a record deficit, stampeded into a reckless war of choice that has turned a good portion of the world against us, dropped the ball on a natural disaster that befell one of its major cities, trampled some of our civil rights and presided over the most violent attack on our country since Pearl Harbor — Pearl Harbor being the operative phrase, given that it was that style of catalyzing event needed to get the country on board with the aforementioned war of choice, according to a document written by folks who came into power during this administration. You’ve indicated that you’re interested in straight-forward dialogue free of personal insults. Tell me why you think the previous administration was worse than this one.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:46 pm(well put, applebee – you beat me to the ’send’ key)
September 1st, 2007 at 4:48 pm#
Actually, sconset, I haven’t been posting here as much as I used to. I also think that the Clinton Administration was far worse ; )
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 4:33 pm
No, you’re over at TPMmuckraker taking a trouncing. Pulling your tired old schtick. Nice try JD.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:49 pm“Rush Limbaugh, who said in May that historians will ‘place George Bush in the upper echelon of presidents who had a great vision for America.’”
Perhaps Rush meant GWB’s eyes were pretty good? Perhaps they (the eyes) took over some of the functionality of the (apparently) withered cerebral cortex?
September 1st, 2007 at 5:15 pmSo, Jake D., nothing, then? A heapin’ helpin’ of ifs, maybes and don’t-bother-me-with-no-facts. Shocker.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:16 pmWell, which one is it then? You guys want me to post or not? Just the fact that Bush got Roberts/ Alito on the Supreme Court to uphold the partial-birth abortion ban is better than EVERYTHING Clinton did.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:21 pmWell, which one is it then? You guys want me to post or not? Just the fact that Bush got Roberts/ Alito on the Supreme Court to uphold the partial-birth abortion ban is better than EVERYTHING Clinton did.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 5:21 pm
That is just sad. Unborn are more important to Bush and his base than anything else. Jake D. you are the oldest loser I know of.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:25 pmRove will be remembered as a fat-headed criminal.
You so-called conservatives will always prefer a tabloid scandal like Larry Craig over attempting to wash the blood of the best of America’s youth from your hands. Your complicity in the murder of a hundred thousand innocents in Iraq and the needless sacrifice of 3500 American fighting men should be something that keeps you up and pacing the floor night after night after night.
Your shame is as big as the great wall of China.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:27 pmwell he sure as hell isn’t near sighted cuz he can’t see the bloody mess he’s created which sits right in front of him.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:27 pmNow that our Military officials are reading this blog site I hope they tell the Liar-in-Chief this.
Bush will be remembered as the worse President in the History of the United States Nixon is now second. The World will have his listen in history as the time the United States had two term President that was a liar, thief, coward, drunk, idiot, uneducated, loser, dirty, daddy’s boy and who skipped our of the military because he was scared. The Russian and Iran Presidents will be seen as true smart leaders as they watched Bush fall on his face. Bush will be a lesson of what not to do as he ends up with egg on his face. Pictures of Daddy Bush crying because his baby son couldn’t be a man and failed at everything his done. The Saudi will praise him as they got rich because he was so stupid. Bush had his best friend running the White House and we know Karl Rove’s criminal history that goes back to his teen years. Halloween kids will wear Baby Bush mask to scare people as what he has done to the United States to truly scary. Even now people could care less about him.
Note Bill Clinton was in the hospital and Americans and people from around the world sent wishes and blessings. Bush was in the hospital and no one cared.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:28 pmThe only person on this Earth likely to call Bush farsighted is his optometrist.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:31 pmSo, Jake, if you’re a staunch pro-lifer, and you believe that those SC appointments trump the war, the profligate spending, the NOLA debacle, the erosion of civil rights, etc., I can respect that. I totally disagree, but I respect it. I’m curious how you feel about this war, and if you’re not completely opposed to it, how you square that with your pro-life belief, given that war tends to be a slight deterrent to life.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:35 pmThe problem with the USA today is that people believed this lying sack of stinky stuff. What have they been correct about in the past six years? If it were not for crime and stealing elections, the turdblossom would be answering calls from Larry Craig et al in the men’s room at some airport, some where. This is a crime family and they should all be suffering their rewards in jail.
The greatest failed administration ever and history will not be kind because what they have covered up will be uncovered in time.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:35 pmGWB went to war against the wrong country. GWB is the dumbest most tragic human being in history. GWB also set a new standard for a definition of total f-up.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:37 pmI’m curious how you feel about this war, and if you’re not completely opposed to it, how you square that with your pro-life belief, given that war tends to be a slight deterrent to life.
Comment by Cazzie Russell — September 1, 2007 @ 5:35 pm
Now you’ve done it, you’re going on Jake’s famous “Ignore List.” :D
September 1st, 2007 at 5:38 pm“I’m curious how you feel about this war, and if you’re not completely opposed to it, how you square that with your pro-life belief, given that war tends to be a slight deterrent to life.”
Gee … asking it to think. Wow.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:46 pm“PRESIDENT George W. Bush will be remembered as one of the BEST PRESIDENTS in AMERICAN History… and PRESIDENT Bush owes a debt of GRATITUDE to The HONORABLE Karl Rove!”
Putting aside (for the moment) that this is tripe, I think your head kept hitting the caps lock. It must be all that weighty meat inside your skull. Better get it checked.
Now back to cases:
This is tripe. Will putting it in caps help you to understand this better? OK.
THIS IS TRIPE.
Thank you.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:56 pmSevere far sightedness and astigmatism who refuses to wear corrective lenses.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:56 pmBush has been more of a blindfolded boy with a bat that had just been stung by a bee. He swings away without realizing that making contact with the hive will only exacerbate his problems.
September 1st, 2007 at 6:05 pmexactly, and afterward, a passerby sees that it was a wasp that made the initial sting.
September 1st, 2007 at 6:10 pmZooey, apparently I’m on several folks’ ignore list. It’s almost as if I’d asked them to defend the indefensible.
September 1st, 2007 at 6:13 pmfar-sighted leader…hell no! Near-sighted fool..hell yes!
September 1st, 2007 at 6:19 pmwe do not vote in a leader, we vote in a president. His job is not to tell us what we desire. His job is not to lead us to places. His job is to PRESIDE, to watch over the country, to listen to the people, to do THEIR will, not his will nor the will of his party – the will of the people.
When did things become so complicated?
September 1st, 2007 at 7:11 pmI’ll say he’s farsighted,kinda like mr.magoo leaving disaster in his wake and being totally oblivious to it.
September 1st, 2007 at 8:33 pmZooey, apparently I’m on several folks’ ignore list. It’s almost as if I’d asked them to defend the indefensible.
Comment by Cazzie Russell — September 1, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
Being on an ignore list is a badge of honor, Cazzie. Wear it well. :D
September 1st, 2007 at 8:50 pmFor the last six years this admin. hasn’t hidden a thing they’ve stuck it right in our faces and with a sneer they’ve told us there’s nothing we can do about it and they’re not done yet. And soon you’ll be hearing george telling his team that they’re going to sprint to the finish. feel helpless yet.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:05 pmComment by Zooey — September 1, 2007 @ 8:50 pm
Why don’t you go back to your own gay website!
September 1st, 2007 at 9:26 pmWhile there, tell gay Gregg or Fudgeboy to delete THIS, you fat ass b¡tch.
Conclusion: These guys aren’t evil, just MASSIVELY DELUSIONAL.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:35 pm“bathhouse bill” sez:
Scintillating.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:39 pmComment by bathhouse bill #133
Will wonders never cease…
…typing, though unintelligent dogsh*t…
…why don’t YOU find some place else to type out your a*s…
…you dumb basturd…
September 1st, 2007 at 9:41 pmOn main st. today I saw old people with signs against this war,they’re out there every weekend.Today all the college students returning in the thousands but without signs.And they haven’t in the past either.Why.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:45 pmBecause they feel safer coming in here to leave their senseless comments that no one will ever hear and very few will read.
President Bush will be viewed as a far-sighted leader who confronted the key test of the 21st century.
Let me see what I can do to fix that:
President Bush will be viewed as the greatest threat to freedom and democracy in the history of the nation, and the key test of the 21st century.
How’s that?
September 1st, 2007 at 9:46 pmYah, reich..That’s what this administration is..Far sighted is what bull shit bush is, just like Hitler, prescot bush and all murderious dictator’s past and present…He should be treated as such, tried, convicted for war crime’s and jailed in a secret prison along with his manager’s for life….All their asset’s should be seized, sold and the profit’s go to the famalie’s who’s son’s and daughter’s were made to fight his made up war and died for his lie’s..The most miserable black hearted, evil people to ever walk the planet…Hanging is to good for them…
September 1st, 2007 at 9:48 pmCazzie Russell:
You will never be on my “Ignore List” as long as you answer my questions and keep the personal attacks out of it. I think this war was justified, that every major war unfortunately has collateral damage, and I “square that” with my pro-life belief based on Romans 13. You don’t think that pro-lifers opposed WWII, do you?
September 1st, 2007 at 9:53 pmJake D. sez:
Liar.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:00 pmComment by big papa — September 1, 2007 @ 9:41 pm
Kiss my black ass, Boy!
September 1st, 2007 at 10:00 pmOh now our frops are soooo sorry. Look at this article: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0907/5602.html Politico says they have a new strategy. It’s to actually hold the incompetent lawbreakers among them accountable. Uh huh. There would be how many left? Zero.
And they are indignant over Craig. Indignation from Fox Republican officials and politicians (frops)? You MUST be kidding me. What about the illegal warrantless spying? What about the illegal politicization of the Justice Department, with our lying purging personal lawyer to Bush and now ex-Attorney General? What about the TORTURE! For heavens sake, if somebody told me I’d be writing about rampant torture condoned by our President 7 years ago I’d have told them they must be on crack. What about the lies to goad us into needless wars? Now our President is stuck on Iran – only problem is that way more foreign fighters caught in Iraq, to the tune of 50%, are from Saudi Arabia. It’s the wrong country once again for our incompetent crooked frops.
So you tell me the frops are indignant over an attempted blowjob. Again. I tell you they haven’t learned a thing. They haven’t learned a single thing. They are hopeless. The sooner we can vote all of them out the better.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:01 pmCazzie Russell:
Try me — here’s my pending question to you: “You don’t think that pro-lifers opposed WWII, do you?”
September 1st, 2007 at 10:04 pmListen to the chicken hawk, chicken shit black hearted troll’s and soon any sane person can see they follow retro active birth control to the T…Why not spout lie’s about being pro life and create war’s that kill off hundred’s of thousand’s..They all want society to give their blood for them while they give huge tax break’s to their own, send the country down the drain with borrowing from foreign countrie’s that send us poisonious good’s, leave our foreign owned port’s to be run by the very people that bombed us on 9/11 and bomb the crap out of innocent countries so they can steal their oil….This murderious bunch must go now and all their inabeler’s as well…
September 1st, 2007 at 10:17 pmAnyone else?
September 1st, 2007 at 10:18 pmAnyone else?
Comment by Jake D
Yea, try Eggregious Gregg; that guy is pure queen queer.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:35 pmDelete that Zooster.
I think this war was justified, that every major war unfortunately has collateral damage, and I “square that†with my pro-life belief based on Romans 13. You don’t think that pro-lifers opposed WWII, do you?
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 9:53 pm
Jake, I hate to ask, but how exactly was this war justified, again? Are you justifying it with the Bible?
September 1st, 2007 at 10:37 pmIn some ways, this war against terrorists is MORE vital than even WWII — at least Hitler never got a nuke — preventing the death of a couple million Americans was worth every penny we’ve paid in Iraq.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:41 pmIn some ways, this war against terrorists is MORE vital than even WWII — at least Hitler never got a nuke — preventing the death of a couple million Americans was worth every penny we’ve paid in Iraq.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 10:41 pm
You do realize the “yellow cake” document was spurious, right? And what about this Bible thing?
September 1st, 2007 at 10:44 pmJake D. sez:
You have got to be sh!tt!ng me, Shakey.
Are you seriously still trying to sell the WMD lie?
You’re an even bigger joke tonight than usual.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:44 pmOne thing is for sure, the despicable NAZIs still had more honor than Muslim terrorists.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:44 pmbob lablah sez:
I, too, have to admit my curiosity…exactly how does Romans 13 apply? Do enlighten us.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:47 pmOkay, Jake, if you’re not going to field this one, here are the first couple of verses of Romans 13:
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
So, is this the philosophy of the Bush administration? Of the Republican party? Of you?
September 1st, 2007 at 10:55 pmFar sighted ay?
Well, I guess that explains why he can’t see the destruction and death he’s causing in Iraq. Because far sighted people can’t anything right in front of their nose.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:55 pmWhen people age, sometimes they remember certain eras that were big in their lives with a foggy mind. Some of them remember the good times, when they were young, when life was exciting, when they were identifying themselves. They often get stuck in one of those eras and never adapt to today’s reality – they don’t change their viewpoint. It’s the 65 year old who still embraces his hippie days. It’s the 75 year old who still lives in the war years when everyone shared similar sacrifices, were extremely patriotic and nationalistic.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:58 pmI think Jake is there. The circumstances today are far different from WWII.
I agree that our Founding Fathers may have violated Romans 13. Bush didn’t though.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:00 pmAs usual, when called on his unsupportable bullshit, Shakey Jake’s silence is deafening. No wonder he has to resort to the fiction of an “ignore list” to justify his suspicious unresponsiveness.
Tonight, however, was particularly disappointing. “WMDs” and “Romans 13″? Please…
September 1st, 2007 at 11:00 pmAnd, I already agreed that the circumstances today are far different from WWII. Hitler never got a nuke.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:01 pmI agree that our Founding Fathers may have violated Romans 13. Bush didn’t though.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
Jake, this brings several questions to mind:
Were our founding fathers wrong to rebel?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:05 pmIs Bush appointed president by God?
Are you saying this is a religious war?
And, I already agreed that the circumstances today are far different from WWII. Hitler never got a nuke.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:01 pm
One more question:
Are you saying the “yellow cake” document was genuine?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:06 pmI knew you would miss my point.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:06 pmI am sorry that you cannot grasp the situation today but can only refer to it in your own terms of reference.
jake D. sez:
Answer the question, Shakey. How does Romans 13 apply? Explain yourself, or admit you’re just throwing out references in a scattershot attempt to confuse the dialog.
Seeing as Saddam never got a nuke (and couldn’t possibly have), the circumstances in that particular topic of discussion aren’t nearly as different as you would like to imply, although Marie’s general point is still quite valid.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:07 pm1) Were our founding fathers wrong to rebel?
I already said they have violated Romans 13 — I leave their fate to God.
2) Is Bush appointed president by God?
As you noted, there is no authority except that which God has established.
3) Are you saying this is a religious war?
This is not Christianty vs. Islam — I will agree that most Muslims can live in peace — all battles between good and evil, however, have a very real spiritual component.
4) Are you saying the “yellow cake†document was genuine?
No, but the British government stand behind their intelligence regardless. I am not claiming that Saddam had a nuke BTW.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:13 pmHitler was close to launching the V2 Rocket, as well as mass producing the new Messerschmidt jets.
If it wasn’t for the allied landings we’d have lost the war.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:14 pmComment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
What exactly does that mean? They “stand behind it”?
If its false information what exactly does “standing behind it” entail?
Do they stand behind it because if they stood in front of it they’d get some of it on them?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:15 pmDon’t let the formatting throw you. I forgot to close a tag. But seriously, what does that mean? What does it mean they “stand behind it”?
What the hell is that?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:19 pmI am not claiming that Saddam had a nuke BTW.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
You’re just implying it.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:21 pmFor the record, Hitler was not only close to launching the V-2 Rocket, he actually launched over 3,000 V-2s against Allied targets, killing over 7,000. The first unit to reach operational status was Batterie 444. On September 2, 1944 they formed up to launch attacks on Paris, recently liberated, and eventually set up near Houffalize in Belgium. The next day the 485th moved to The Hague for operations against London. Several launch attempts over the next few days failed, but on September 8, 1944 both groups fired successfully.
Over the next few months the number of V-2s fired was at least 3,172, distributed over the various targets as follows:
At Belgium : 1664
Antwerp 1610 (≈ 50% of the total)
Liege 27
Hasselt 13
Tournai 9
Mons 3
Diest 2
At France : 76
Lille 25
Paris 22
Tourcoing 19
Arras 6
Cambrai 4
At England : 1402
London 1358 (≈ 40% of the total)
Norwich/Ipswich 44
At targets in Germany : 11
Remagen 11
At the Netherlands : 19
Maastricht 19
Hundreds more were launched that blew up in mid-flight, and never made it into allied statistics. (Final development of the V-2 during the war was in fact to remedy this problem) The final two exploded on (or near) their targets on March 27, 1945. The last British civilian killed was Mrs Ivy Millichamp, 34, in her home in Elm Grove, Orpington.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket
September 1st, 2007 at 11:21 pmto jakey….bwaaah ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! – you base your “pro life beliefs” on a passage from the bible??? – you’re talking about romans 13 as if it is an actual law to be enforced and abided by (”the founding fathers violated romans 13″??!!??) – i too,like tmm, would like to hear you expand on this belief of yours
September 1st, 2007 at 11:21 pmbob lahblah:
Are you still around?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:22 pmJake D. sez:
You haven’t yet said how Romans 13 applies. I want to hear you say it, so you can’t squirm out later.
While we’re at it, where does the “pro-life” thing come in that you mentioned back in post #140?
According to that logic, Chimpy’s rule is illegitimate. Care to explain?
No, but you tried to insinuate that Saddam had the capacity to get a nuke, which is equally disingenuous. Nice try, though.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:23 pmWhat a good little Wiki Wog you are Jake.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:24 pmI’m not really sure where to start here, Jake, so how about #2?
2) Is Bush appointed president by God?
As you noted, there is no authority except that which God has established. Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
First of all, I didn’t note it—Romans 13 did. Second, it’s my understanding that the USA is a democracy, not a theocracy.
Did God make Clinton president too? How about Nixon?
Perhaps most importantly, if we all put our blind faith into authority, would this country even exist?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:26 pmAnd btw Jake. I meant with an atomic warhead.
But thanks again for spending your Saturday night searching Wiki for me.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:27 pmGod rose up David, and made him the most powerful and famous man from the Bible.
David, like Clinton, was an adulterer, and God loved him.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:28 pmIn contrast, the powerful and violent Philistines drew Gods wrath.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:29 pmbob:
Clinton, and Nixon before him, were established in their position by God. That does not impact “democracy” at all, just as God’s omnipotence does not impact “free will” or the “law of gravity” either. That being said, I don’t put blind faith into human authority. Whether we would be the “United States” had our Founding Fathers not violated Romans 13 is an interesting hypothetical question — Canada did so without a revolution and a single drop of blood being shed, but I would argue they would not have without the American (and French) Revolution beforehand.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:34 pmClinton, and Nixon before him, were established in their position by God.
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:34 pm
So you’re saying that God, the Mac Daddy, the Alpha and the Omega, the great I AM, is rigging our elections?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:36 pmSo when Bush introduced the DIEBOLDS, he was just giving God a vacation?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:37 pmFor the record, the tougher question would be whether God established Hitler’s authority over the German people . . .
September 1st, 2007 at 11:38 pmbob lahblah, your far too smart for this Jake D. Good luck getting anywhere with him though. He is one the 28% neocon base that believe certain parts of the bible and choose to ignore other parts. The guys that made up and edited the bible for all these years must be rolling in their graves laughing in their carbon-14.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:39 pmHere’s a link to an article that quickly and concisely demolishes the interpretation of Romans 13 as a command to slavishly obey whatever authority happens to be in power at the moment.
Shakey, you’d do well to read this article before you persist in your foolishness.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:40 pmOkay Jake, I wasn’t going to ask, but how about Hitler? Was his position of power established by God?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:40 pmJake, I see you beat me to it. So what’s your answer?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:40 pmbob:
I think I’ve answered every question you’ve asked of me. Here’s my question to you: are you a Christian?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:41 pmTo Jake Hitler WAS God.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:41 pmI think Romans 13 makes it clear that Hitler has a God-given authority over the German people. That doesn’t make Hitler “God” by any means, nor it it give Hitler the authority over other peoples.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:43 pmare you a Christian?
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
I’ll be you think you are.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:44 pmGod even gave SATAN authority over Job and his family / possessions — read that Book someday.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:44 pmbob:
I think I’ve answered every question you’ve asked of me. Here’s my question to you: are you a Christian?
Comment by Jake D. — September 1, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
No Jake, but I do believe that God gave us brains and it is up to us to use them. I believe we were given those brains in part to ask questions.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:45 pmNow what about Hitler?
BARTLEBEE sez:
Are you kidding? Shakey’s an authentic Bap-Catholic-tist (â„¢). ^_^
September 1st, 2007 at 11:46 pmJake D. sez:
Shakey, did you even see my post #183?
Don’t know why I even try. You seem bent on making a fool out of yourself.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:49 pmA. Romans was not part of the Gospel of Christ, and does not contain commandments from God for us.
Romans was simply a letter, written by Paul, who was NOT one of the original 12, to seven branches of the Church who were struggling with the assimilation of Christianity into Roman empire.
The problem with Jake, like most self professed Evangelicals, is they know little about the passages from the Bible that they are memorizing.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:54 pmNow that he’s gone, do we really have to listen to Rove’s drivel anymore? Bush is a catastrophe and this man delivered him to us.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:54 pmRove deserves a noose before he deserves any further attention.
History has it’s twists and turns, for sure, but it will have to become a pretzel to conclude that Bush was good for America in any sense whatsoever.
jake – romans 13 sounds similar to the theories on which shiite muslims base their beliefs – that god shall appoint people to govern – that is not democracy – are you also saying that you would prefer not to live in a democratic society where by the people choose who should lead the country? – or would you prefer to leave that decision in the hands of some religious nut who claims that god speaks through him?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:56 pmSome of what Paul was writing about in chapter 13 was towards following the centralized leadership of the Church, which was being slowly integrated into Rome. Paul was having struggles with the divisions in the church and was trying to force cohesion in the ranks.
It was NOT commandments from God for us to follow.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:57 pmJake, here’s a question:
Do you vote? If so, why?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:59 pmThats the problem with evangelical Christians. They take everything written in the bible as somehow mystically intended for everyone, instead of simply being a letter from Paul to several bickering branches of the early church.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:01 ambob lahblah sez:
Hah. I can answer that one, using Shakey’s usual “logic”.
Shakey votes because by doing so, he’s fulfilling God’s will. God appoints our rulers, by using Shakey and others as instruments to pull the appropriate levers.
What a load.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:04 amI doubt God is busy fixing US elections.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:07 amBARTLEBEE sez:
That’s because at the heart of the matter, evangelical Christians are desperate to abdicate responsibility for living their lives. Thus their tendency to literally interpret the Bible, as well as slavishly obey their religious figures and cleave to authoritarian political leaders.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:07 amThats what I think it is Trip. A need to abdicate responsiblity for their own actions. If God already said it (never mind God didn’t say it, but some guy that you never met that lived 2000 years ago) then the thinkings already been done.
I think it makes killing easier.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:13 amThe mormons are very big on the Romans 13 thing. In fact, in WW2, the Mormon Church in SLC excommunicated a young German mormon named Heinrich Huber. Huber was working against Hitler and the Nazi’s, and distributing leaflets and such speaking out against the persecution of the Jews.
It is rumored that Hubers Bishop turned him in, but someone did, and Huber was arrested, and hung for being a traitor, to Hitler. Once that was discovered, the Church excommunicated him, because he spoke out against his civil leader. Adolf Hitler.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:18 amReligion. What a wonderful thing.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:24 amWell…no comment from Shakey in 45 minutes…I assume he finally realized the untenability of his position, and beat his (usual) hasty retreat.
Smartest move he’s made all day.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:32 amCheck this out:
http://swiftreport.blogs.com/news/2004/12/white_house_exp.html
Not exactly conducive to forward-thinking policy making…
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:40 amYeah, farsighted.
We were attacked by Osama, and Chimpy decided to invade Iraq.
Makes about as much sense as would FDR bombing Brazil after Pearl Harbor.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:41 am“The Rapture” is one of the things I despise the most about evangelical Christianity. It’s puerile escapism…an immature revenge fantasy.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:44 amMakes about as much sense as would FDR bombing Brazil after Pearl Harbor.
Comment by blogbob — September 2, 2007 @ 12:41 am
I think a better comparison would be Korea.
You see, it has to be in the general area.
The again, given the sorry state of affairs nowadays, Bush might very well believe Brazil and Japan are indeed in the same general area.
**sigh**
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:47 am“Shakey votes because by doing so, he’s fulfilling God’s will. God appoints our rulers, by using Shakey and others as instruments to pull the appropriate levers.”
Manifest Destiny anyone? Ther official government policy that allowed the US Army to butcher perhaps a million Native Americans? God is on OUR side (the Repugnican one) and everyone else will be smitten.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:49 amHey, why would some Kafka dude be hanging out on this thread Gregor? -Kevo
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:49 amI think a better comparison would be Korea.
You see, it has to be in the general area.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — September 2, 2007
True, but Korea was under Japan’s control at the time, as was most of Asia. How about if FDR had bombed Kunming, China, home of Generalissimo Chaing’s government?
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:51 am“The Rapture†is one of the things I despise the most about evangelical Christianity. It’s puerile escapism…an immature revenge fantasy.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — September 2, 2007 @ 12:44 am
———-
People who believe in “The Rapture” have only slightly larger numbers than you lunatic, far-left fringe, moonbat, kooks.
September 2nd, 2007 at 1:08 amfar left fringe moonbat kooks.
Wow. Thats a mouthful.
September 2nd, 2007 at 1:15 amI’m a little numb to false accolades for Bush, but “The key test of the 21st Century” really annoys the piss out of me. The key test is sustaining the population ~ reversing the trend of consuming the world’s natural resources before the end of this century. And for that test not only did Bush FAIL, but he chided anyone who even offered to assist.
Bush will be remembered as the most selfish, partisan idiot to ever be elected President. He is a fool’s fool.
September 2nd, 2007 at 1:19 amJake you are not 75 years old, you are a known liar. You are between 25 and 35….not 75. We have noted your hours on this site many times and no you are not 75, you are just a huge liar.
September 2nd, 2007 at 2:12 amJake, I had to fly earlier and didn’t see your posts until now, but I want to address the question you asked me. And while I’m at it, thanks for an honest effort at intelligent debate – it’s a lot more than I’ve got from others on here who I’ve asked to seriously defend their pro-war position. First of all, when you say that collateral damage is an unfortunate reality of war, you’re right, except that I’d say the adjective “unfortunate” is nowhere near strong enough. “Tragic” is more like it. Which is why a civilization — that’s us, all of us — interested in its continued survival should undertake to avoid it, always, and especially so now in the nuclear age. You invoked a WWII parallel that doesn’t wash, and here’s why: Germany declared war on us. Germany, the premier military force of that era, had willfully moved to ‘liberate’ sovereign countries by invading and occupying them in the name of their grand vision. Again, they declared war on us. A hostile act against its government — the torching of their parliament building — got the electorate on board with their initiative, and the rest is an “unfortunate” chapter of world history. Mr. Half Moustache remains the gold standard of evil today. Iraq had nothing to do with the hostile event that motivated our “pre-emptive” invasion of it. The leaders who painted the pre-war scenario of why it was in the interest of our survival to invade have since admitted as much. Did that bother you — that it was later put forth that “weapons of mass destruction” was admitted to be merely the most digestible and easily sold reason to go to war? I would suggest that reasonable people don’t appreciate having their intelligence insulted. Finally, you quote the Bible to justify an act of pre-emptive war. This was a book — well-intention as it was, no doubt — that was written about thirteen centuries before we learned the earth isn’t flat. Jesus Christ himself, the man whose teachings it seeks to advance, didn’t even get an op-ed. The book was written by others, a couple of hundred years “A.D.” You could use the same book to defend slavery as acceptable, as long as you treated slaves well, or corporal punishment for kids. You could use even the book to argue against itself — is it “turn the other cheek” or “an eye for an eye?” The bottom line teaching that I would guess Jesus Christ would have liked to impart is the do-unto-others thing. I would posit that raining bombs on others falls a bit short in that regard. Like famine and the ongoing battle against microbes, war is one of civilization’s ills that reasonable people must seek to end. I would hope, and pray — I do believe in God — that folks at the helm of the switches would recognize this.
September 2nd, 2007 at 3:58 am(sorry for the War And Peace-length screed, folks. i didn’t realize it was running so long)
September 2nd, 2007 at 3:59 am… or that tripmastermonkey, bob lahblah, marie and bartlebee had all made great points in the same vein, but with brevity
September 2nd, 2007 at 4:56 ambob lahblah:
I already answered your question about Hitler. As for me voting, of course I do, because it is my civic (and, now, God-given) responsibility.
Cazzie Russell:
No need to apologize. I think this battle is MORE important in some ways (I highlighted just one such way) than WWII, despite all the obvious differences. No “nation-state” declared war on us, you are correct. That makes this war MORE difficult in some respects. Even if bin Ladin killed himself in some underground bunker, the war would continue. Also, it does not bother me that we went to war based on WMD. The Duefler Report was all the evidence I needed that Saddam was worthy target. With that, I believe I’ve answered all of your questions.
Besides, if you would posit that Jesus Christ was against WWII (I note you never did answer my initial question to you: “You don’t think that pro-lifers opposed WWII, do you?â€), what difference does it make even if I were right in this little compare / contrast exercise?
This will be your last chance to answer my questions.
September 2nd, 2007 at 4:58 amDuelfer Report: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/duelfer/index.html
September 2nd, 2007 at 5:01 amIn case you haven’t read the whole thing yet, there are specific comments on the possible movement of WMD to Syria prior to the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom: “Whether Syria received military items from Iraq for safekeeping or other reasons has yet to be determined. There was evidence of a discussion of possible WMD collaboration initiated by a Syrian security officer, and ISG received information about movement of material out of Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved. In the judgment of the working group, these reports were suffi ciently credible to merit further investigation. ISG was unable to complete its investigation and is unable to rule out the possibility that WMD was evacuated to Syria before the war.”
Your turn.
September 2nd, 2007 at 5:06 am#223 – so jake,does the cia currently have people in syria investigating this?
September 2nd, 2007 at 5:52 amhmm. well, history didn’t make us like lbj or nixon any better for their role in vietnam.
September 2nd, 2007 at 6:19 am
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:59 am2nd UK general says Rumsfeld source of desaster
The Duefler Report was all the evidence I needed that Saddam was worthy target. – Jake
Exactly right. Saddam was known to have been misleading the US and the UN, and trying to obtain bigger and better WMD was his life long goal. Plus, he specifically tied the US to Israel, and saw us both as threats. He had to go.
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:49 amComment by ipod — September 2, 2007 @ 5:52 am
Of course, liberal.
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:50 amOf course, liberal.
Comment by AVGVSTVS — September 2, 2007 @ 9:50 am
have they found anything yet?
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:29 amMy last chance to answer your question, Jake? Or else what? I don’t win the toaster oven? Sorry, amigo. You’ve followed what at first seemed to be an honest attempt to debate an issue with a bunch of inane non-sequiturs. You square your belief that pre-emptive war jibes just fine with your pro-life ideas by citing a passage of the Bible that encourages people to be sheep. Great answer. You want to swing the topic over to whether I think pro-lifers opposed WWII. I flunked mind-reading, so I wouldn’t pretend to speak for people in 1930s who opposed abortion. It does logically follow in any era, though, that those who value human life would not be on board with a program that embraces pre-emptive war. You ignore the fact that we started the war/occupation in Iraq, a pretty significant distinction if you’re going to haul WWII into the discussion. But you don’t see that distinction. You’re fine with our having lost thousands of our brave men and women, and that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are no longer, because collateral damage is just an unfortunate aspect of war. I’d point out that you don’t make sense, but you’ve demonstrated that any further keystrokes debating you are a waste of time. Instead, I’ll respect the choice of anyone to live their Romans 13-driven life as a good sheep and thank them for their wool.
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:35 amhey jake,augustus – FYI:
Scott Ritter, who was a chief UN inspector in Iraq in those years recently had this to say about the Duefler report:
“One of the tragic ironies of the decision to invade Iraq is that the Iraqi WMD declaration required by security council resolution 1441, submitted by Iraq in December 2002, and summarily rejected by Bush and Blair as repackaged falsehoods, now stands as the most accurate compilation of data yet assembled regarding Iraq’s WMD program\s (more so than even Duelfer’s ISG report, which contains much unsubstantiated speculation).
“Saddam Hussein has yet to be contradicted on a single point of substantive fact. Iraq had disarmed; no one wanted to accept that conclusion.”
any comments?
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:38 am> trying to obtain bigger and better WMD was his life long goal.
so now we start wars based on dictators fantasies and pipe-dreams, Mr Pee? I’m sure Kim Jong whacks off to pictures of ICBM’s , why hasnt your hero taken him out yet?
similarly, trying to make anyone give a flying f@ck about what you think is your lifelong goal.. that doesnt mean you have any chance of succeeding….
> and is unable to rule out the possibility that
>WMD was evacuated to Syria before the war.â€
thats why despite the rewards and the interrogations of high level iraqis they couldnt find a SINGLE MOLECULE of post Iranian war WMD in Iraq?
uhhm.. jake…arent you a lawyer ? You do know you can never prove a negative, right? When was the last time you were representing a plaintiff in a case and when it came time to put on your evidence you said “your honor, the defendant cannot prove that my allegations did not occur, so therefore I win”?
by the way, jake, still waiting to hear about the hurdles you had to jump, other than attending law school, to become a lawyer. Curious to know what year you took the bar, what state, and what a passing score at that time was? Oh, and how many digits is in your bar # ?
Oh jake, with your ‘lol’s and your smiley texts and your paypal account and your late nite internet sessions, your just the most hip, youthful “75 year old” we know…
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:42 amFar-Sighted? Perhaps Cross-Eyed.
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:43 am>You ignore the fact that we started
> the war/occupation in Iraq,
>a pretty significant distinction
>if you’re going to haul WWII
Leave Jake-and-Bake alone, hes “old” and he can’t remember that hitler declared war on us, and that japan attacked us…which is, uhm, pretty different than Iraq, which never initiated any hostile acts again us, or any country we had any mutual defense treaties with…
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:48 amFar-sighted – must mean he needs reading glasses – hey that explains why Bush never reads anything unless it’s in big print.
September 2nd, 2007 at 11:27 amAt this juncture, I read this thread as sound and fury signifying nothing. Adios! -Kevo
September 2nd, 2007 at 11:56 amCazzie Russell sez:
Heh heh. Let me be the first to welcome you to The List â„¢, Cazzie…well said.^_^
Shakey Jake isn’t interested in honest debate…he only appears that way to try to suck you into answering his increasingly demented questions, and when you decline to continue playing his absurd game, he uses that as an excuse to add you to The List â„¢. Of course, if you manage to ask him a question he can’t answer (as have I, among several others here), that will fast-track you onto The List â„¢ as well. And, of course, if you tell him what you actually think of him, he’ll interpret that as a personal insult (which it usually is) and put you on The List â„¢ as well…never mind that before Shakey started this whole “ignore list” nonsense, he was more insulting than anyone else…Shakey doesn’t let a little thing like hypocrisy stand in the way of his idiocy.
Again, welcome to the club, Cazzie. Membership on Shakey’s “list” is considered a badge of honor hereabouts. ^_^
September 2nd, 2007 at 1:21 pmthanks, tripmaster – if you’re on thelist, does that spell trouble now at the airports? for the record, i don’t think jake is a bad guy. i’m probably naive for imagining that a serious debate with the pro-war crowd will lead anywhere other than a dead end.
September 2nd, 2007 at 3:41 pmIf anyone NOT on the “Ignore List” still wants to discuss the thread topic, or even why personal attacks and/or refusing to answer my questions (even if you think they are “demented” or “a bunch of inane non-sequiturs”) are deserving of the “Ignore List” in the first place, let me know.
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:31 pmjake – i have asked you several questions on this thread that have not been answered – i take it that i am on ‘the list’?
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:56 pmFarsighted? Well, maybe he just needs a new prescription to cure his tunnel vision?
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:34 pmNow there you all go again. Giving air time to something KRove has said. What an utterly vapid waste of time. Once one has taken the garbage out, one doesn’t discuss it on the Metro or at the lunch counter. One simply returns from work expecting to see the empty barrels waiting in the street.
September 3rd, 2007 at 12:20 amYep, he wears glasses all right!
September 3rd, 2007 at 1:55 ambob lahblah:
You still around?
Amare:
Good point about LBJ and Nixon (although the whole quitting / resignation thing kinda sealed their fates, history does see the good they did more clearly now).
September 3rd, 2007 at 8:51 amBack to the topic, Bush visited the al Anbar province today: http://www.cnn.com
September 3rd, 2007 at 8:53 amhttp://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/03/bush-makes-surprise-visit-to-iraq/#comment-4054440
September 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 amFar-sighed? No wonder he can’t see the evidence that’s clearly right under his nose.
September 3rd, 2007 at 12:38 pmExcuse me while I puke my guts up.
September 3rd, 2007 at 1:08 pmromans 13. the verse. 13 being one of the US’ favorite numbers. Romans. a civilization in love with strong men and war. roman/greek. the style of architecture openly express in DC. the united states is not a democracy. these cowards use religion as a tool to herd sheep into giving up their lives to THEIR god. we dont know who they really worship. remeber that.
September 3rd, 2007 at 5:11 pmI am confident it will judge the 43rd president as a former male-cheerleader, alcoholic, and war-coward not worthy of the great office he twice stole.
September 3rd, 2007 at 7:13 pmI haven’t taken time to read all of the previous postings. I should not be surprised if some one else has already spewed the epithet “turd blossom”. Or if some one else has already pointed out that these jerks don’t care anymore for history than I do for lutefisk. This is more smoke to reinenforce their tried beliefs that they are actually doing something good. The sad part is not that they believe their own tripe, But that there is someone else in the next generation who will believe it also
September 3rd, 2007 at 10:26 pmfootsore
a farsighted leader with nearsighted tendencies-just pick an event, incident or situation and go anywhere you want from there.
September 4th, 2007 at 7:50 am“far sighted”… as in unable to see what was right in front of him? Ok.
September 4th, 2007 at 11:48 am