Two Of Seven Soldiers Who Wrote New York Times Op-Ed Die In Iraq
Two Of Seven Soldiers Who Wrote New York Times Op-Ed Die In Iraq
On Aug. 19, seven active duty soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division wrote an op-ed in The New York Times called “The War As We Saw It.” The piece expressed skepticism about “recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable”:
The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework. […]
In the end, we need to recognize that our presence may have released Iraqis from the grip of a tyrant, but that it has also robbed them of their self-respect. They will soon realize that the best way to regain dignity is to call us what we are — an army of occupation — and force our withdrawal. […]
We need not talk about our morale. As committed soldiers, we will see this mission through.
On Monday, two of these soldiers — Sgt. Omar Mora and Sgt. Yance Gray — died in a vehicle accident in Western Baghdad. The news of their deaths came as Gen. David Petraeus wrapped up his testimony to Congress about the Bush administration’s progress in Iraq.
The soldiers’ courage to speak out has helped change the debate. In yesterday’s Senate hearing, Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) read from the soldiers’ op-ed. Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) also referenced the op-ed, challenging Petraeus’s rosy assessments:
HAGEL: By the way, I assume you read the New York Times piece two weeks ago — seven NCOs in Iraq, today, finishing up 15 month commitments. Are we going to dismiss those seven NCOs? Are they ignorant? They laid out a pretty different scenario, General, Ambassador, from what you’re laying out today.
Mora’s stepfather said that Mora believed the “situation in Iraq was desperate” and was sad that children in Iraq were “having to live” with the war going on. His mother said that Mora, who was on his second tour of duty, was supposed to be coming home in November.
Mora is survived by his wife, Christa, and 5-year-old daughter, Jordan. Gray is survived by his wife, Jessica, and infant daughter, Ava.
One of the other five authors, Staff Sgt. Jeremy Murphy, was shot in the head while the article was being written. He is expected to recover.
UPDATE: Houston’s KHOU aired this report on Mora. Watch it:
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150 Responses to “Two Of Seven Soldiers Who Wrote New York Times Op-Ed Die In Iraq”
GOP won’t be satisfied until all the soldiers are dead.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:04 ammost likely they were “terminated with extreme prejudice” by command, the others will soon follow.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:06 amThese are the true heros…
September 12th, 2007 at 10:08 amOne of the other five authors, Staff Sgt. Jeremy Murphy, was shot in the head while the article was being written.
With an AK-47 or a M16?
September 12th, 2007 at 10:09 amI agree with Unkle Ho, the others may be terminated also.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:09 amFragging the truthtellers much? Got DICTATORSHIP IN AMERICA?
EXPOSE THIS WAR FOR ISRAEL:
US Carrier Officer says:
‘We Are Going To
Hit Iran…Bigtime’
http://rense.com/general78/we.htm
READ EVERY WORD
September 12th, 2007 at 10:13 amYes, I’m quite sure that the GOP’s goal is to kill the troops…
September 12th, 2007 at 10:13 amThis is truly sad. It is also an indication that the soldiers knew what they were talking about because they were in the middle of it.
Let’s hope that our trolls respect the sacrifice that these brave soldiers represent and leave bad enough alone.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:14 amOne of the other five authors, ….., was shot in the head while the article was being written.
Was it the front of the head, or the back ?
That could make a difference as to whether it’s counted or not.

September 12th, 2007 at 10:15 amInteresting how the above story, originally published on the Daily Kos, has been scrubbed from that site:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/1/183018/1527
Your warmongering CIA/DOD psyops teams @ work.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:16 amEXPOSE THIS WAR FOR ISRAEL:
Comment by ace
Uh oh! You mentioned the unmentionable.

September 12th, 2007 at 10:18 amIn 2006, a similar effort to stage a preemptive nuclear strike against Iran was prevented by a revolt of the generals. According to Seymour Hersh:
In late April, the military leadership, headed by General Pace, achieved a major victory when the White House dropped its insistence that the plan for a bombing campaign include the possible use of a nuclear device to destroy Iran’s uranium-enrichment plant at Natanz, nearly two hundred miles south of Tehran. …. “Bush and Cheney were dead serious about the nuclear planning,” the former senior intelligence official told me. “And Pace stood up to them. Then the world came back: ‘O.K., the nuclear option is politically unacceptable.’ http://www.newyorker.com/ archive/ 2006/ 07/ 10/ 060710fa_fact .
It may be significant that General Peter Pace was not reappointed as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Pace was opposed to a nuclear strike against Iran. Was he not reappointed in order to clear the decks for a more permissive environment within the Joint Chiefs of Staff for an attack that could use tactical nuclear weapons? It appears so given the coincidence of reports of an imminent attack and purchase of $4.5 billion in stock options predicting a collapse in the US stock market.
The current military plans available to the public mention only conventional munitions but it is more likely that some tactical nuclear weapons will be used to take out Iran’s deeply buried nuclear facilities. The effect of tactical nuclear weapons to destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities would be devastating. Radioactive contamination would disperse widely affecting the health of many. At the same time, Iran’s military and much of its civilian infrastructure would be destroyed by conventional munitions. This would restrict Iran’s abilities to cope with the health and humanitarian impact of the use of nuclear weapons, and destruction of nuclear facilities.
The question to be asked is “who are the hidden investors with insider knowledge that can gain them billions in short term profits?” This answer will give an important clue to the long term agenda being played out, and the actors involved. In the case of 911, similar investors were able to evade detection from an official investigation by the U.S. Securities Exchange Commission (SEC). The SEC launched an unprecedented investigation that deputized “hundreds, if not thousands, of key players in the private sector” (see: http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/stockputs.html ). According to a former Los Angeles Police Officer, Michael Ruppert, what effectively happens when individuals are deputized is that they are sworn to secrecy on national security grounds. This was a very effective way of keeping secret what was discovered in the SEC investigation. What kind of investor would have the power to subvert an SEC investigation in this manner? The most likely answer is the CIA.
CIA front companies annually supply funds for a black budget used to fund covert national security projects . The black budget has been estimated to range between 1.0 to 1.7 trillion dollars annually which is funneled through the CIA to various military-corporate entities fulfilling such projects (see: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0401/S00151.htm ). The massive size of the black budget is needed to fund a second Manhattan Project - projects related to technologies so advanced that many claim them to be extraterrestrial in origin. Credible whistleblowers have come forward to claim the existence of such technologies and of a high level government cover up of extraterrestrial life (see: http://www.disclosureproject.com ). They claim that most Congressional officials are not briefed on extraterrestrial related projects due to national security concerns. Consequently, Congress is not aware of or permit appropriations for a second Manhattan Project, funds therefore need to be generated in alternative ways.
The CIA is able to perform this function of secretly raising revenue through the 1949 CIA Act which authorizes the CIA to expend funds “without regard to any provisions of law”. The CIA therefore does not have to follow any legal requirements for the funds it procures from various sources, and funnels to military-corporate entities directly responsible for the second Manhattan project.
There needs to be public opposition to a preemptive military attack against Iran, and exposure of the underlying agenda behind it and those intending to profit from it. An informed public is the best safeguard against unwarranted abuses of executive power such as a preemptive attack against Iran that does not have the support of the American people or Congress. In addition to raising public awareness, it will be very helpful for individuals to project thoughts of peace and goodwill to the Middle East, and especially to Iran. The Princeton Project on Global Conscious Project at Princeton University has demonstrated the effect of large numbers of people placing their attention in ways that can impact on global events (see: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/ ). If millions of people could project a positive vision of peace and harmony to Iran and U.S. military forces in the region, then such a preemptive attack may be prevented.
The period leading up to September 21 will be critical for the whole planet as the signs are all too evident that a preemptive attack against Iran, almost certainly involving nuclear weapons, is imminent. The humanitarian cost in terms of possible radioactive fallout, and casualties from the destruction of Iran’s military and much of its civilian infrastructure may be catastrophic for the Persian Gulf region. Furthermore, the U.S. and global economy will go into a deep free fall in the event of dramatic increases in oil prices and further instability in the Middle East. Out of this looming tragedy, investors with possible CIA connections and insider knowledge, plan to profit in ways that may be used to secretly fund a second Manhattan Project.
Michael E. Salla, Ph.D Kona, Hawaii 09/04/07 http://www.Exopolitics.Org
September 12th, 2007 at 10:18 amYes, I’m quite sure that the GOP’s goal is to kill the troops…
Comment by François — September 12, 2007 @ 10:13 am
Just so. they haven’t stated any other goals, no definition of winning, no plans to protect the troops. Lie after lie after, excuse after tripe. Bullshit, piled higher and deeper. GOP mass-murdering traitors.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:20 amTalk about it. These troops just want to go to Iraq to line their pockets with oil money, only to come home and start a class war.
Comment by Anti-Treason — September 12, 2007 @ 10:21 am
Good morning, Mr. P!
September 12th, 2007 at 10:24 amUm, and that equates to them wanting to kill troops?
September 12th, 2007 at 10:26 am“there are no accidents” …?
how very sad… for all…
deepest sympathies and condolences to the families…
and sincere thanks for their sacrifices…
September 12th, 2007 at 10:26 am…
Now we learn that on August 30th, six nuclear warheads were “accidentally†shipped by B-52 from Minot Air Force Base in North Dakota to Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. (Five arrived, did one get “lost� Or is someone unable to count?)
Comment by ace — September 12, 2007 @ 10:26 am
Where did you see that only five arrived?
September 12th, 2007 at 10:31 amThe first block put its finger on the iimportant item - Our invasion has robbed the Iraqis of self-respect. Unfortunately, it takes self respect for them to undertake the hard political process of forging a union.
In short, our invasion has robbed them of the very thing they need.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:32 amNice blog, toasterhead.
Comment by Anti-Treason — September 12, 2007 @ 10:27 am
Thanks!
For a minute there, I had you confused with a conservative troll posting irrational and inflammatory statements about deporting Republicans and bashing the troops that go largely ignored, which would then give you (or another unscrupulous blogger) an excuse to post on his blog that progressives think troops are kleptomaniacs and want to deport all Republicans in 2009.
But you wouldn’t do something like that, would you?
September 12th, 2007 at 10:37 amlets all write our soldiers and let them know EXACTLY who is holding them hostage…. then IF they make it back, they can take it up wit h those who held them hostage….. i know i’d want some motherfu*king payback!
September 12th, 2007 at 10:38 amThis article may be the saddest, most heartbreaking of the entire war.
cliff
September 12th, 2007 at 10:38 amPoor bastards. True heroes.
They deserved better leadership, and their country failed them.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:42 amUm, and that equates to them wanting to kill troops?
Comment by François — September 12, 2007 @ 10:26 am
The wingnut stupid is thick today.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:43 amAdvisory to democrats serving in the military: Get out the service, as the military industrial war complex is only using your services for profit.
Comment by Anti-Treason — September 12, 2007 @ 10:43 am
Nobody should ever join up during a Republican administration or majority; the GOP thinks soldiers are its playthings, and, with their long-standing disrespect for human life, have no qualms about sending troops to die wherever the profits might be.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:46 amComment by Anti-Treason — September 12, 2007 @ 10:43 am
Why do you limit that advice to Democrats?
September 12th, 2007 at 10:46 amhttp://www.airforcetimes.com/ news/ 2007/ 09/ airforce_aircombatcommand_standdown_070807/
ACC orders commandwide standdown Friday
By Bruce Rolfsen - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Sep 10, 2007 17:38:42 EDT
On Sept. 14, flight lines will be very quiet at Air Combat Command bases.
The entire command — about 100,000 active-duty airmen — is standing down training flights and many other operations as part of a command-wide safety day.
Command boss Gen. Ronald Keys ordered the Sept. 14 safety standdown in the wake of the Aug. 30 nuclear incident at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., in which six cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads were loaded onto a B-52H and then flown to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., without anyone on the ground or bomber realizing the nuclear weapons were on the plane. It was not until the B-52H was parked at Barksdale that ground crews discovered the cruise missiles were carrying real warheads.
Command spokesman Maj. Tom Crosson said wing commanders would determine how their units review operations and safety procedures and checklists.
Just how serious Keys takes the lapse of regulations at Minot is reflected in the fact that the safety stand-down is the first commandwide safety day in recent memory. In the past, the command has singled out specific types of aircraft for safety days and in 1997 the Department of Defense held a departmentwide safety review day.
WHO TELEGRAPHS AN AIR FORCE STAND DOWN?
FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
September 12th, 2007 at 10:48 amagree with Unkle Ho, the others may be terminated also.
Comment by clayton
Really clayton? You agree with such a comment? That these Soldiers were terminated by their command for speaking out?
You make me sick, seriously.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:51 amTheir Commanders don’t care what the troops say, hell, they probably AGREE with them. The troops on the ground and the lower level officers (2LT-CPT) are probably MORE in agreement on the Iraq war than they ever have been in the history of the Military. They’re the ones ‘on the ground’, slugging it out, day after day, and willingly putting their lives on the line to do their jobs. And when they DO lose their lives, you and your ilk (Uncle Ho, for example) want to be the first to say “It was an inside job”, rather than saying “Thank You”.
You noticed no mention of Mora’s criticism of the war in that newscast.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:52 amComment by SGT Higgins — September 12, 2007 @ 10:51 am
Why would you assume that the soldiers on the ground are as stupid and misguided as you? Willingly giving up their lives fo the lies of Bushco? Get real.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:54 amNot all things are conspiracies. Some, like this, are just tragedys. My thoughts and prayers go out to the fallen and their families.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:54 amronjazz, uncalled for. You have a myopic and simplistic view that does not hold up to the realities of soldiers in combat.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:56 amHiggie baby; FYI, I AM a vet, with no small thanks to the draft. So I DO KNOW FOR A FACT THAT COMMAND FROWNS ON DISSENT.
I was labled a ‘troublemaker’ during my active duty for my opposition to the Vietnam war. I also wore a peace sign with my dogtags.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:01 amFlynt Unveils More Vitter Claims : Ex-New Orleans Prostitute Says Louisiana Senator Was a Client.Louisiana Sen. David Vitter is again under fire from adult content publisher Larry Flynt. Flynt restated his claim today that Vitter patronized a Louisiana prostitution service in 1999. http://abcnews.go.com/ Politics/ story?id=3589312&page=1
September 12th, 2007 at 11:01 amThe death of these soldiers was a coordinated event? An investigation will take place. Can you provide any evidence of a coordinated event? If so then please do. If not, then it’s an opinion. One that only takes away from the soldiers death and their message.
It is a sad reminder that soldiers will die in this. It’s a coincidence that these soldiers spoke out to a newspaper prior to this.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:03 amWhy would you assume that the soldiers on the ground are as stupid and misguided as you? Willingly giving up their lives fo the lies of Bushco? Get real.
Comment by ronjazz
ronjazz,
September 12th, 2007 at 11:04 amI’m neither stupid, nor misguided. Nice try, assuming that ruffling my feathers was your goal.
I’m no fan of Bush any more than these Soldiers are/were. But when deployed to a combat zone, his politics aren’t at issue. What matters at that point is looking out for each other and making it 12-15 months. Period.
I won’t say all, but most Soldiers would give their lives for one another….not a president. We still work and live with each other no matter who lives in the white house.
The wingnut stupid is thick today.
Comment by ronjazz — September 12, 2007 @ 10:43 am
You’re a perfect example of this. You’re crazy, but fun to mess with. Nut.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:04 amWhy would you assume that the soldiers on the ground are as stupid and misguided as you? Willingly giving up their lives fo the lies of Bushco? Get real.
Comment by ronjazz — September 12, 2007 @ 10:54 am
The soldiers on the ground in Iraq are good Americans, and do not deserve this sort of comment, any more than Sgt Higgins does. They are not stupid or misguided, they’re doing their jobs and protecting each other as best they can.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:06 amhellinabucket; it might be a coincidence or it might not be, I really don’t know. But, I DO know from personal first-hand experience, that the brass does not like dissent, and will try to prohibit it or punish those who do dissent.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:06 amHiggie baby; FYI, I AM a vet, with no small thanks to the draft. So I DO KNOW FOR A FACT THAT COMMAND FROWNS ON DISSENT. —– So what? You’re equating ‘frowned-on’ w/ ‘taken out back and shot’. Big difference, dude.
I was labled a ‘troublemaker’ during my active duty for my opposition to the Vietnam war. —- Yeah? think you were alone in that? I kinda doubt it.
I also wore a peace sign with my dogtags. — Yeah? Think you were alone in that? I kinda doubt it.
Comment by Uncle Ho
September 12th, 2007 at 11:07 amComment by Anti-Treason — September 12, 2007 @ 10:58 am
Shut up, Pee. No one is amused by your stupid comments.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:07 amSo, are the odds of dying accidentally for all military personnel roughly 2 in 7?
How about the odds of dying non-accidentally?
September 12th, 2007 at 11:08 amIt’s not worth talking to hughjazz (unless you’re messing with her for your own enjoyment). She is thick headed and very stubborn. Reasonable though escapes her. She hates Bush just a bit more than she hates the troops who are fighting HIS war (not our war, it’s bush’s war and only bush’s war, nobody else is responsible for what is happening over there now). She’s probably an immature, misguided little girl with obvious anger issues. She needs to develop a better grasp of reality and vent her frustrations properly.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:10 amhaha ‘hate speech’
September 12th, 2007 at 11:13 amso much typing, so little being said.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:16 amIsn’t that how it usually is around here?
September 12th, 2007 at 11:19 amAfter hearing the news, President Bush was heard to say, “who cares? Heh heh.”
September 12th, 2007 at 11:22 amThree of the six Marines who planted the flag atop Iwo Jima died on the island.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:26 amAmen, Higgins. Most mid-level officers are not at all against their troops voicing their opinion, and agree with them more often than not.
Call me a mindless drone all you want, but I love my job (USAF),and that’s more than most folks can say.
BTW ACE, ACC (Air Combat Command) is not the whole air force, just 1 command. And a “Stand-down” just means that people will be at work, getting safety briefings and other items. Jeez…..
September 12th, 2007 at 11:27 amGood and honorable point Jake D.
Thanks for the informed comment CRAIG MACK.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:30 amThe story and link referred to in comment #7 (above) was shown by Kos (on his site) to be a fraud and totally fabricated.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:31 amHomework, S.V.P.
We need our credibility-it’s just about all we have these days.
Relating to this post is a new film coming out this weekend entitled “In the Valley of Elah” starring Tommy Lee Jones. It focuses upon the death of a soldier who has returned to the U.S. after being in Iraq and the attempts of the father [played by Jones] to find out how his son died and why the military is trying to cover up his son’s death. It is based upon a true story and was put together at the urging of Clint Eastwood. This film, even though it has not even been released yet, has already been slammed by conservatives as being unpatriotic which means that it is most likely worth seeing. As Tommy Lee Jones says in today’s USA Today regarding the theme of the film, it is important that people question not only from the heart but also from the head.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:32 amHiggie baby; I NEVER claimed that I was alone in wearing a peace sign with my dogtags, or opposing the war while I was in the service. Far from it, antiwar sentiment among the GIs was RAMPANT when I was in.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:32 amBut given the BS about the current war(see Pat Tillman/Jessica Lynch) and all the other BS(phony letters to their hometown newspapers by soldiers supporting the war), I would not be surprised if they were silenced for speaking out.
Gummitch = troll
hellinabucket = troll
Higgins = troll
Therefore, treasonous.
Comment by Anti-Treason
WOW! I’m really honored to be included in the same list with such illustrious company. Thanks A-T! aka Dork
Comment by CRAIG MACK — September 12, 2007 @ 11:27 am
Thanks Craig. I agree, a safety standdown is pretty much a day to get some much needed training. I think it was the right thing to do.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:35 am#
The story and link referred to in comment #7 (above) was shown by Kos (on his site) to be a fraud and totally fabricated.
Homework, S.V.P.
We need our credibility-it’s just about all we have these days.
Comment by Thomas M — September 12, 2007 @ 11:31 am
So I presume you have access to a link where we can all go and read the evidence of your statement. Please post it.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:37 amBut given the BS about the current war(see Pat Tillman/Jessica Lynch) and all the other BS(phony letters to their hometown newspapers by soldiers supporting the war), I would not be surprised if they were silenced for speaking out.
Comment by Uncle Ho
Whatever Ho. If you think there’s even a scrap of evidence that suggests this was an inside job, do your thing.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:39 amI think your energies would be better served making a donation or volunteering with AER, the USO, or some other service affiliated, organization, however.
‘Their is no military solution to the war in Iraq’ -Gen. Patreaus
Where’s the diplomatic surge?
Any military surge should be in tandem with diplomacy. Bush doesn’t want to ‘win’ this war. He wants permanent bases in the heart of the Middle East.
How’s it feel to be lied to on a daily basis, America?
Condi can’t find 300+ in the State dept. to even go to Iraq, let alone coordinate a diplomatic surge.
Where’s the political surge?
After pouting about the Iraqi government taking August off, Bush & Congress promptly took August off.
If Crocker is the best we have, God save us all. OTOH, I believe Crocker drew the ’short straw’ at the event that decided who was going to Iraq.
‘Their is no military solution to the war in Iraq’ -Gen. Patreaus
September 12th, 2007 at 11:39 amWe need to all pray for there families in this time. These are 2 brave men that gave their lives for our freedom. I salute them and thank them dearly as we all should.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:41 amYou leave now, troll.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:43 amOh yeah, #76, I’m really raking it the profits. I’m sure, with all your recources, you can look you can look up the base pay for an AF E-6, then tell me how you feel about my “profiting”. You should have been swallowed…….
September 12th, 2007 at 11:44 amThese guys are truely brave and courageous “fallen angels”. It is not our of line to consider that they have been subjected to the same treatment as Pat Tillman.
A third soldier out of the original seven was shot in the head, I believe he is still alive.
What a message to other soldiers thinking about speaking up.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:45 amErroll; about that movie ‘The Valley of Elah’, based on a true incident.
The reichwing nut jobs equates truth as treason.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:46 amYou’re wasting time you treasonous troll. Get back on subject. Two soldiers died in Iraq, this time, they were semi-public figures, somewhat giving a face to the death and destruction.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:46 amWhere did you see that only five arrived?
Comment by toasterhead — September 12, 2007 @ 10:31 am
It smells funny; it is funny, don’t believe it! There are kooks on both sides, you know.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:46 amTalk about it. These troops just want to go to Iraq to line their pockets with oil money, only to come home and start a class war.
Comment by Anti-Treason — September 12, 2007 @ 10:21 am
Hmmm… I think this poster is a phony. These comments are a little too whack. Look out for this one. Sumpin’ not right here.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:47 amHiggie; Does Vietnam Veterans Against the War qualify? I’m a lifetime member.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:47 amanti-treason is most definitely a phony. He’s accusing fellow liberal posters of being trolls for one.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:49 amThree of the six Marines who planted the flag atop Iwo Jima died on the island.
Comment by Jake D. — September 12, 2007 @ 11:26 am
What does that have to do w/ anything? Talk about your irrational segues.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:50 amHiggie; Does Vietnam Veterans Against the War qualify? I’m a lifetime member.
Comment by Uncle Ho
I don’t know Ho. Does the money go to pay for signboards and letters to congress? Or does it help out the families of fallen Soldiers such as the ones mentioned in this article? It’s your money, dude, YOU make it count, not me.
Gotta run, good talkin’ to you all.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:51 am“Three of the six Marines who planted the flag atop Iwo Jima died on the island.”
Comment by Jake D.
They also weren’t fighting in a war of choice, for bogus reasons. Or was Pearl Harbor a false flag incident? To equate the two demonstrates an intellectual corruption of truly grand scale.
And that goes for the leg-humpers who thought Jake’s point apt to Iraq.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:52 amHAH, you’re cracking me up treason.. you troll! Everyone but him is a troll according to him! I love it!
September 12th, 2007 at 11:53 amYou’re the dumbest person on the internet right now.
Comment by Anti-Treason — September 12, 2007 @ 11:51 am
Ah, yes, the troll shows its true colors.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… you’ve been outted!!!!
September 12th, 2007 at 11:53 amSumpin smells like urine and sheep dip here…
Mr P! Is that you? Wearin’ a different dress today, I see…
September 12th, 2007 at 11:55 amUser registration here can’t come quickly enough.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:56 amWhy would you assume that the soldiers on the ground are as stupid and misguided as you? Willingly giving up their lives fo the lies of Bushco? Get real.
Comment by ronjazz
When Soldiers are in combat, they are thinking of trying to protect their fellow Soldiers and themselves. Their duty is the same no matter which chowderhead is currently President.
Your comment is way f*cking off base.
Rather than thanks to these brave men who dared to speak out, who still are risking all for their country, you guys are posting this kind of crap?
I served under Raygun and George Botch 1. I did not like either one of those losers.
I am going to have to side with SGT Higgins on this one.
I personally salute all of these fine men of the 82nd ( my old Division ) and my condolences to the families ofSgt. Omar Mora and Sgt. Yance Gray.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:57 amHahah, I love it! Anti-Treason is pretending to be amigos with hughjazz! This is great, take an extremely liberal view on everything to make the real liberals look bad by comparison. Great stuff!
September 12th, 2007 at 11:58 amAccident? Yeah right.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:59 amI love the fact that the local news report doesn’t even acknowledge that Mora was one of the authors of the NYT op-ed. Is the Texas news station just not going to reveal that the soldier thought the war was idiotic? Or was the reporter so lame that he didn’t even know it? Neither would surprise me.
But then none of us should be surprised that Iraq is a big mess.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:00 pmThe best way to help out the soldiers is to make sure that they do not remain in that slaughterhouse, where they have a very good chance of returning to this country maimed, crippled, dismembered, disfigured, severley burned, blinded, brain damaged, paralyzed, suffering from PTSD, all for no justifiable reason whatsoever. Bring those troops home in one piece-now.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:00 pmI personally salute all of these fine men of the 82nd ( my old Division ) and my condolences to the families ofSgt. Omar Mora and Sgt. Yance Gray.
Comment by Wayne — September 12, 2007 @ 11:57 am
I’m w/ you & Higgins on this one too, Wayne.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:01 pmMr P! Is that you? Wearin’ a different dress today, I see…
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — September 12, 2007 @ 11:55 am
Jeeze, it took you long enough. Looks like he’s already gotten into the Red Bull big time, but he’s probably been sucking it down all night.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:02 pm“Three of the six Marines who planted the flag atop Iwo Jima died on the island.â€
Comment by Jake D.
Glory be to them! I wish you were one of them!
September 12th, 2007 at 12:04 pmI personally salute all of these fine men of the 82nd ( my old Division ) and my condolences to the families ofSgt. Omar Mora and Sgt. Yance Gray.
Comment by Wayne — September 12, 2007 @ 11:57 am
Well said Wayne. My condolences to the families of these brave soldiers, and to the families of all of the soldiers who have lost their lives in Iraq.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:04 pmJeeze, it took you long enough.
Comment by gummitch — September 12, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Hey, I only came in a few min ago! :-D!
Seems “Anti-Treason” has disappeared…. changin’ his panyhose?
September 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pmAw, it was fun playing with anti-treason.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:08 pmSumpin smells like urine and sheep dip here…
Mr P! Is that you? Wearin’ a different dress today, I see…
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
______________________________
It’s the smell of men in diapers and men’s room toilets. Mr. P undergoing his daily aromatherapy and bringing those odors with him wherever he goes. Those same wonderful fragrances that Republicans crave cause them to flock around their Chimp to benefit from his blessed and life-giving scent.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:09 pmI was labled a ‘troublemaker’ during my active duty for my opposition to the Vietnam war. —- Yeah? think you were alone in that? I kinda doubt it.
I also wore a peace sign with my dogtags. — Yeah? Think you were alone in that? I kinda doubt it.
Comment by Uncle Ho
Comment by SGT Higgins — September 12, 2007 @ 11:07 am
We are truly brothers in arms, then!
I also wore a Peace Sign with my tags, but they were in my boot laces, since we weren’t allowed to wear our tags on our necks. I also wore a braided Peace bracelet, which pissed off the Brass, Big Time.
I joined the VVAW when I returned and marched to shut down DC, was almost arrested and felt I did make a difference.
Higgie, Keep it up!
Ho, Don’t Mean Nuthin’, right?
And I joined
September 12th, 2007 at 12:13 pmAlthough anti-treason was fake, sadly, hughjazz is a real person, and just as crazy.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:13 pmI did not read all your good post’s this morning, sorry, I could not….Again, I grieve..Blessings to all our troop’s and their famalies along with all of you..
September 12th, 2007 at 12:22 pmI highly recommend that you all watch the movie “Syrianna”. You’ll know why when you see it.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:34 pmAnd you’ll see what Syrianna has to do with this story too.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:36 pmTiming is everything, isn’t it? I guess the New York Times will not be asking any follow-up questions of ANY of these soldiers, especially not the two who died on Monday in a non-combat-related (?) accident.
Perhaps Mora was sympathetic to the little Iraqi kids because he had little brown-eyed babies too. Perhaps he wasn’t a sadist, as seems to be fostered in the soldiers, who are to regard all Iraqis as the enemy (the Iraqi People are being “saved” from turning into a terrorist sinkhole when in fact the original rationale was that they would receive the blessings of democracy with the regime change from Saddam). If anything, the military goals, no matter what Petraeus can toot his horn about, are ever shifting and mirage-like. a la Vietnam, of course.
How long until another 9/11-like incident causes the bully boys to get a bigger whiphand at home to enslave more of our youth into the military, so that these pointless wars may be fought and more psyches ground into the dust? How long until the American nation is one vast camp of child abuse and rape and sadism, as the occupation is acted out at home by immature minds warped in service to empire? How much can we take of drugs and all that follows? I lived through Vietnam and the present generation has no idea how disgusting a country can get when years of violence come home to roost. And yes, there are violent veterans - whether to themselves or others. They are still human, but they have been dehumanized for a critical portion of their young lives, and it may never be fixable. You all who have lived through relative peace and security - I hope you never have to endure another time of insanity like the late 60’s early 70’s. The music may have been good, but the self-destruction was a direct effect of the war. I don’t want to see it again.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:41 pmTheir deaths are unfortunate and I know their families are hurting but with the huge amount of crimes that the Bush Mafia has done, the amount of shear corruption they have done to every dept. of government, you just really have to question if this was a snuff job and a warning to others about speaking out. Hate to say it but maybe someone should clear this thing up and let it be public knowledge how they died.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:41 pmupside; you’re right. It don’t mean nothing.
I joined the navy because my draft # was real low, 64 if memory serves correctly.
I’ll be in DC on the 29th for a protest at the White House.
September 12th, 2007 at 12:44 pmI’ll be in DC on the 29th for a protest at the White House.
Comment by Uncle Ho — September 12, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
I wanted to go to DC, but it is my father’s 88th birthday party, so I am going to see him.
Peace Out, Unka Ho!!
September 12th, 2007 at 12:52 pmAnother sad day for all. Many of my friends who have opposed this war from the beginning are wondering, as I have, how many more are going to be killed and wounded before the Congress starts to cut off the money to fund this horrible mistake. Iraq was never a threat to us in any way, and now our being there, is the best thing for Osama bin Laden and his followers.
September 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmthyey were murdered
September 12th, 2007 at 1:07 pmMore waste….GOP=waste
September 12th, 2007 at 1:07 pmYea, when the ragheads hit DC you VERY FUNNY leftist are going to have shit all over your faces; but then a shitty face liberal looks no different than a raghead. Then what are all these poor, underprivileged folks without health insurance and welfare going to do? Won’t matter then will it? Maybe the ragheads will have pity and slit your throat really fast or stick a grenade up your great sphincter, YO!!!!
September 12th, 2007 at 1:16 pmRe:#3
These are the true heros…
Comment by clayton — September 12, 2007 @ 10:08 am
How does participating in war crimes make one a hero?
You do understand that the United States and other countries committed crimes against humanity by attacking a nation which did not attack nor was in the process of attacking them?
You do know that all the participants from the #1 president down to #999999999 soldier, are all war criminals?
THE TRUE HEROS ARE THE 10,000 SOLDIERS WHO REFUSED ILLEGAL ORDERS AND CHOSE NOT BE PARTICIPATE IN WAR CRIMES!
Those are the soldiers who deserve our support, and who currently need our help against their unjust persecution for standing up and doing the RIGHT thing.
September 12th, 2007 at 1:16 pmHow profoundly stupid of you Hussein OBob. You have no confidence in our military. The current conflict in Iraq and the voices against it in no way shape or form follows your simplistic rationale.
Terrorists will not destroy this country. They have already beaten you though.
Wake up.
September 12th, 2007 at 1:22 pmi didn’t say terrorists i said RAGHEADS and leftists with SHIT ON THEIR FACES.
you know what a leftist with SHIT ON THEIR FACE looks like
a RAGHEAD!
September 12th, 2007 at 1:25 pma RAGHEAD!
Comment by Hussein OBob — September 12, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
Inshallah there will be a registration system here soon to keep racists like you off this site.
September 12th, 2007 at 1:30 pmOh I see, your scared and racist.
September 12th, 2007 at 1:33 pmThese 2 Snitches got what they deserved.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:00 pmThat’s the word from some soldiers!
hellinabucket - how u so sure they weren’t fragged? I agree that we should not jump to the conclusion that they were taken out for political reasons, but neither should we jump to the alternate conclusion.
One way or another, the administration killed those guys. Whether it was the act so many years ago now, of lying to start an illegal war, or a more deliberate act of making sure they had an “accident”
As to Anti-Treason - if you are really progressive (as you claim) you should keep your mouth shut (fingers still) since every post you write hurts your cause. But I don’t think you’re a progressive - you are waaaaay to obvious - go back to freeper ville!
September 12th, 2007 at 2:04 pmRAGHEADS killed American and YOU are blaming th eUS!!!
You will have shit on your face when the RAGHEADS attack
September 12th, 2007 at 2:04 pmComment by ace:
September 12th, 2007 at 2:07 pmAttentions DACS: The war is for Saudi Arabia-not Israel. Get a clue, Jewphobic idiot.
upside; Unfortunate that you won’t be in DC too, but enjoy your father’s B-day. :-)
My ex-mother-in-law passed away on Labor Day weekend. We got along great, but I did not attend the funeral-too awkward.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:08 pmHussein O Bob - when the “ragheads” hit DC it will be in Ryder trucks supplied by the FBI, with the ISI supplying the patsies, the CIA running the cover-up in the media and the mossad pulling the puppet strings on all. The only terrorists who want you dead are the terrorists in Israel & the WH.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:11 pmnjt, We’ll never know for sure if the deaths of these two soldiers were from within or from the enemies they hunt. I won’t disagree with you that this administration is responsible for their deaths. I doubt they were directly involved.
In classic Greek tragedy form, their deaths drive home their message. If they were “fragged” it was another shortsided order without a clear objective and, in that, I can see the hand of GW.
Anti-Treason is Anti-Important.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:12 pmUSMC6002 got anything that backs up your claim that the war is for saudi arabia? “jewphobic?” is that the new “anti-semite” that comes out any time someone points out that Israel is practicing racist apartheid, not to mention is the biggest benefactor of US foreign aid, not to mention the country doing the most spying in the US, not to mention illegally developing nuclear weapons in secrecy for years…. i could go on. let me guess your ip address traces to israel… or are you marines really that uninformed? I don’t think so.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:16 pmhellinabucket wrote “If they were “fragged†it was another shortsided order without a clear objective and, in that, I can see the hand of GW.”
the clear objective: send a message to all other grunts: “Speak up, and die”
just speculating here, of course…
September 12th, 2007 at 2:20 pmNot much of a recruitment/retainment tool njt. They need all the front line soldiers they can get.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:27 pmHow sad that good men like these had to die!
September 12th, 2007 at 2:33 pmThese snitches got what they derved!
September 12th, 2007 at 2:39 pmJust out of curiosity, I put on the waders and sifted thru the shit over at freerepublic to find what the knuckle draggers were saying about these guys. Most of it was the usual paranoid “Sounds too smart to be written by real soldiers” type stuff. But the second to last post made me feel hugely proud about our military. Here it is-
(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1883532/posts?q=1&;page=63#63)
To: Free Vulcan
I have absolutely no doubt that the seven soldiers named on the op-ed piece wrote the article, my brother happens to be one of them. I think that it would suprise most of you to find out that they are all extremely intelligent and most are on their 3rd, if not 4th tours (as is the case with my brother). None of them want to leave there, they are not crying about being over there, and one was shot in the head before the article was published…so I would hardly label them as “pussies†as someone so intelligently stated. Jayamaha actually has (oh my god) a Masters Degree in International Law (i know some of you may find it hard to believe that these ignorant “grunts†actually possess a brain). Most of these guys also have their Ranger tabs and are leaving for Selection for SF when they get back (yep…real big “pussiesâ€). They did go up the chain of command with this article before it was ever published. They are not saying that we need to get out right now, they are saying that in the LONG TERM this strategy will not work…unless we plan on being there FOREVER. I love how everyone “supports the troops†until they disagree with something that they have to say. These men are risking their lives so that most of you computer jockeys can sit your fat asses at home and never actually do anything worth a damn for this country. Thanks and have a lovely day!!!
62 posted on 08/27/2007 9:23:59 PM PDT by mtgray
September 12th, 2007 at 2:43 pm[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies ]
hellinabucket - sure but THINK - in the “big picture,” at this point in time, which more has more impact steering away potential new recruits:
A) 2 more deaths added to the 4,000 or 40,000 already.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:44 pmOR
B) a NYT article that gets quoted throughout the MSM and becomes a part of the permanent historical record, denouncing the entire operation.
if i was a recruiter, i’d want to make DAMN sure these types of articles don’t start coming out as often as 2 American troops die in Iraq.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:50 pmThanks for the hunting and post Dr. Know. I’ll have to venture there as well some day.
njt, it’s not an A or B scenario. There are thousands of articles currently denouncing the operation. There are many more troops that have voiced theirs concerns. I’m not going to rule out any foulplay but it’s not on my list of probables.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:51 pmSo Baltar, if you got fragged, then you got just what you deserved too.
September 12th, 2007 at 2:57 pmSo Baltar, if you got fragged, then you got just what you deserved too.
Comment by Uncle Ho — September 12, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
I saw the aftermath of a fragging, and it ain’t pretty! Baltar obviously hasn’t, or he/she wouldn’t have posted that crapola.
The blind following that BushCo still has, is just astounding to me. Guess the lower IQ has a lot to do with it, huh?
September 12th, 2007 at 3:01 pmThese 2 Snitches got what they deserved.
That’s the word from some soldiers!
Comment by Baltar
You lying POS.
September 12th, 2007 at 3:02 pmNo Soldier worth his salt would say anything of the sort.
And that is Soldier with a capital S
like your name Piece of Sh!t, with a captital S.
hellinabucket - that’s fine, i agree that knowing what we know at this moment, it’s improbable they were fragged. i guess i just don’t agree that recruitment concerns increase it’s improbability.
September 12th, 2007 at 3:15 pmbut looking back on Tillman.. I would have said the same thing for months afterwards (no more), so imo the benefit of the doubt is lost here.
to clarify:
September 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pmbut looking back on Tillman.. I would have said the same thing for months afterwards (improbable he was fragged - now i think it’s likely), so imo the benefit of the doubt is lost here.
No disagreement from me on that njt.
September 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pmupside; low IQ? Geezus, reading the ranting trolls postings makes me believe their IQ is in the minus range, like, -110
September 12th, 2007 at 3:37 pmThis is just terrible news. We need brave soldiers like this.
Anyone who wants to open their mouths to insult these two soldiers who just got killed, needs to post their address, so we can come over and beat the bjesus out of you.
September 12th, 2007 at 4:12 pmThis thread is amazing - - - I’m sick over learning that these two died, and the information shared within the comments is a tribute to their sacrifice! I’ve been led down at least three separate trails pertaining to Iran, and have downloaded three IAEA reports as result…all from the links comments 1-50.
Thanks! I’m going to get smart on all of this documentation today and have it down as soon as possible. For these two heroes of the 82d, these two patriots, I’ve got to know everything about this attack on Iran beforehand, as opposed to how I learned about Iraq.
It’s time to blog-whore on Iran…on a massive scale. Send a message to the MSM that we’re hip to the flip this time around.
September 12th, 2007 at 4:16 pmSo, I now count 2 soldiers out of how many disagree with the general assessment? The real news is that there is so little dissent among the military.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:27 pmSorry for the “accidental” deaths of these fine men. Guess the brass couldn’t fit all 7 into one vehicle.
Hope that they investigate these deaths and the injuring of the 3rd as well as they investigated Clinton’s blow jobs. Hope too, that the 4 who remain alive and healthy do not find themselves taken home soon in the pine-box limo - being the victims of other unfortunate “accidents”.
September 12th, 2007 at 8:05 pmfraggin’ ?
September 12th, 2007 at 8:41 pmThe count is now up to three of the seven are dead. One shot in the head and two in an alleged “truck accident.”
Is it just me, or does this sound grotesquely suspicious???????
September 12th, 2007 at 9:50 pmLooks like the US Military in Iraq eliminates (like Adolf Hitler eliminated Field Marshal Erwin Rommel) its members, who express dissent or disagree with the ilegal Iraq invasion & occupation.
Where are the GOP senators who praised Gen Betray Us.
David
September 13th, 2007 at 1:45 am4 out of the first 7 comments about this story infer that these 2 US servicemen were killed by other US troops.
Seriously, how much do you people hate the Democrat party ?
September 13th, 2007 at 4:46 amWhy not threaten a few republicans with assassination while you are at it ?
I mean why be half-arsed in trying to forever destroying the reputation of this blog, go for broke.
Your trolls ?
Your little buddies here are the ones suggesting these brave US soldiers were killed by other brave US soldiers.
GFY you pathetic POS.
You get to say crap like that when you start tackling the disgusting arseholes here who’s shit goes unchallenged in every thread.
If you think spinning the deaths of some troops for political purposes is worse than stating they were probably killed by other troops then say so.
Otherwise STFU because you don’t get to have an opinion, just like every other fake outrage poser here who never has shit to say about this crap coming from their own.
September 13th, 2007 at 4:57 amI hate Iraq. So many americans dead
September 13th, 2007 at 6:04 amthe radical right forces Dan Rather into retirement based on a blog and talk radio-fueled circus.
What does Katie Couric do in response? She has Rush Limbaugh on her very first program, legitimizing his fascist infotainment views.
When left-of-center viewers criticize Couric for something she readily admits to, how does CBS respond? By criticizing the viewers’ intelligence and their method of receiving information.
September 13th, 2007 at 7:37 amANYBODY KILLED A U.S. NIG TODAY?!
Good Labor Day present for the dog.
September 13th, 2007 at 9:33 amOhhh the fake outrage, how predictable. Tell you what rushbot, go to LG, freerepublic, redstate or any of the other wingnut sites and type in James Webb, John Murtha, Pat Tillman or Cindy Sheehan and see how much you neocons “support” the troops.
In the sixties it was the hippies that supposedly spat on the troops, now it’s you guys. No wonder the whole country hates you.
September 13th, 2007 at 12:52 pmThat should be LGF. Pardon me.
September 13th, 2007 at 12:53 pmMost of you people posting comments as this site are truly mentally ill.
September 13th, 2007 at 3:08 pmDid you order the code red?
September 13th, 2007 at 8:12 pmYou’re damn right I did.
It’s time to chage the leadership, and change the direction of this great country. Impeach the Bush Administration
September 13th, 2007 at 9:10 pmWhat a surprise! The unhinged, moonbat left fails to note the irony of their praise for exactly 2 soldiers out of the 170,000 serving in Iraq — “the real heroes” — after their deaths in an apparently non-combat vehicle accident, while accusing the other 169,998 of conspiring to kill them.
You girls think the right is cynical, but we never, ever think that you’ll sink as low as you sink. You do this every time, and every time we’re caught off guard. The hole is deep enough; stop digging!
September 13th, 2007 at 10:53 pmBeverly Shill, you retarded nitwit, just an fyi: the guy shot in the head is alive and well, and it happened before the Op/Ed was completed and long before it was published.
But your hatred of our soldiers is duly noted — thanks for your service.
September 13th, 2007 at 10:57 pmThe strange case of Cpl. Pat Tillman, who was found to have been killed with a three-shot burst to the head from just 10 yds. away in 2004, took almost 3-1/2 yrs. to investigate. The Army gave conflicting and incorrect descriptions of the events to the press. Cover up! You bet!!! Any soldier voicing an opinion against the Bush administration is going to be targeted just as Sgt. Mora and Sgt. Gray. (God rest their souls and sympathies to their families). The minute I heard of this abominable incident my mindset went to: “they will cover this one up as long as they can” - or wait awhile until some pressure is put on them and hopefully the truth will come out! I would bet and count on it that this was “potential fratricide” - apparently meaning murder! The questions will remain, for Pat Tillman, Sgt. Mora and Sgt. Gray, who killed them and why???? Downright dirty corruption in the government/every agency down the line!! roany
September 14th, 2007 at 12:46 amExcuse me- the way some of you are using the sacrifice of these two soldiers is making my stomach turn. I knew Yancey Gray and I am sure that his family and friends would appreciate it if you would not use his death and life as ammunition for your political views. These soldiers were decent, patriotic, and brave and they left on this earth parents, siblings, wives and children. Pray for their families and honor their memory.
September 14th, 2007 at 9:12 amSomehow you managed to leave something out of this story…the reason behind Mora and his comrades-in-arms writing the editorial:
“Robert Capetillo said Mora told his family the editorial had been misunderstood by many who have used it as political ammunition in calling for troop withdrawals.
But Mora and his comrades didn’t call for that. Instead, they said the United States should “increasingly let Iraqis take center stage in all matters, to come up with a nuanced policy in which we assist them from the margins but let them resolve their differences as they see fit. This suggestion is not meant to be defeatist, but rather to highlight our pursuit of incompatible policies to absurd ends without recognizing the incongruities.â€
Maybe if you weren’t giving aid to the enemy with your defeatist attitude Mora and his comrades would still be alive. Suck it up, losers, we’re going to stay and we’re going to win over there.
September 14th, 2007 at 1:53 pmYou are a bunch of iedots thank good you poeple were not in charge during WWII. We all be specaking german right now.
September 14th, 2007 at 7:37 pmAs a friend of Omar’s I would like to say how easy it is to be wrapped up in conspiracy. Talking to him only a few weeks ago makes it even harder to comment…knowing a bit more of some of his true feelings, those NOT quoted in the NY times. Regardless of the connections made, it doesn’t take away from the fact that this was the same man I knew for fifteen years. The guy who loved his family, soccer and clowning around. I would hate to forget that admist the blame and controversy.
September 17th, 2007 at 2:22 am