Now to answer you questions,

You knew from 2004 onward apparently that the situation was not going to improve with the current administration even when he was re-elected. So why did you re-enlist if you obviously knew that the solution was not going to work, i.e. Bush’s weak war plan?

I did not know that it would not change. First of all, the elections were in November of 2004. I was already in Iraq and voted by absentee ballot. Most of the lies and deceit did not come out until 2005 (maybe late 2004 when I didn’t have a lot of media access).

“You still have not given me one good reason for staying.”
Iran. I can’t believe you think that if the U.S. left Iraq that the country wouldn’t slide into an all out civil war, which it isn’t contrary to what people like Michael Ware say, or the Iran wouldn’t move in politically and make Iraq another puppet state like Lebanon already is.

I would argue that it is already in an all out civil war – as Ret. General Clark said “under the veneer of the US military”. We are just muddying the waters and confusing the real issues, actually preventing the resolution of their differences (whether that be segregation or some sort of compromise). In addition, I truly believe that the violence would decrease quicker and the total death count (both Iraqi and obviously US would be lower) if we pull out. That is not to say that we couldn’t leave troops in allied nations (don’t think we can really say friendly anymore) to help contain any actual threats. Even so, do you remember that Ahmed Aminejad (sp?) Was not very popular and only got power because of our interference in Iraq – Tehran and parts of Iran were becoming much more open to western ideas. It seemed that leading by example worked better than by force.

“ “Security IS WORSE [..] The CIA, FBI, NSA and 13 other intelligence agencies that put out the National Intelligence Estimates are coming up with this [..]?”
[..]When was the last sucessful terrorist attack directed at U.S. civilians? Yes things are far more tense, but since things like the Patriot Act have been implimented, al Qaeda’s capabilities are far weaker than than they were prior to 9/11. […]

This argument is not valid and I am not sure where to start. First off, almost 4000 brave Americans have been killed and more than 30,000 severely injured (not including mental disorders). That is a much larger price than all terrorist attacks in history combined. Second, I would disagree – the sniper shooting in VA in 2002 could be considered a terrorist attack and others, but that is irrelevant. The sun has not exploded either, that does not mean that the Patriot Act is protecting us from the sun exploding. As you can see, the lack of an attack does not mean it was related to the Patriot Act. If you remember, there was not a terrorist attack for EIGHT years prior to the USS Cole (think it was eight years). No patriot act then. Terrorism around the world as increased and the sophistication has increased. (this is only the first article I came across – there are many more). Anyway, who needs terrorists when our own government is trying to keep everyone scared of the boogey man so that they act out of fear, not with rational thought?

Don’t forget The WORST terrorist attack on US soil happened on George Bush’s watch. Plenty of warnings and intelligence was given and warnings that indicated this attack without any Patriot Act. George Tenet had repeatedly tried to get the administration to take OBL seriously (in his book as well as other aides corroborate – I am too tired to find references, sorry). Condi Rice had said that OBL was not a threat as late as 08/2001.

The Taliban are not in control of most of Afghanistan as a matter of fact nor is al Qaeda. Please cite a report that says the the Taliban or al Qaeda are as strong as they were pre-9/11.

The Taliban, Regrouped And Rearmed
Google search of Taliban + Resurgence (too tired to read all the articles and pick the best ones)

[…] You don’t think that even if were not in Iraq that NATO shouldn’t be providing the bulk of the troops in Afghanistan by now? Why have they not stepped up to the plate and helped more?

Well, as much as I would like world support, and agree that would be great, we are really not in a position to request help when we started basically told the UN to screw off. We squandered all the good will other countries (even hostile nations) felt towards the USA after 9/11. The point is, with or without their support, (and we probably would have had it before invading Iraq and exhausting foreign troops and good will), we were doing a great job in Afghanistan.

“You can slam John Kerry all you want, but he earned his right to criticize the Vietnam War. His opinion seems to be pretty much in line with MOST of the Vietnam vets I have talked to (as well as most historians).”
You don’t have a problem with what he said before Congress after he got back about U.S. soldiers basically being butchers?

To be honest, I have not seen all of his quotes, nor where he directly accuses specific troops I will concede that I am not informed enough to make an intelligent statement. I do know that there were atrocities on both sides. From what I read, he was trying to say that if Lt. Calley was culpable in the My Lai massacre, so was the chain of command all the way UP. I don’t agree with generalizing atrocities to all the troops; however, there is NO EXCUSE for any sort of torture, rape, and other atrocities committed, even by our own troops. I guess I don’t have enough information to defend or condemn Kerry. I was referring to being my belief he was against the Vietnam War and blaming the administration and government in charge for putting the military in that horrible position (not necessarily the military – but I could be wrong). I need to do more research.

“All I ask is just read the Op-Ed from the 82nd Airborne with an open mind.”
I have read their piece. All I can say is the talking with friends and family that are CURRENTLY serving that things are much better now than they were in 2006.

That is very interesting, because I talked to a Marine that was with me that went back in 2005 -2006 and he said it was much worse (and it was pretty bad where we were). I talked to another Marine friend of mine that is a company grade officer that works only with Iraqi forces out in the open (he and I have differing opinions on how to handle Iraq), but he said it is worse. I talked to him a couple of months ago – he is finishing up his 15 months there (was back a couple months ago for a couple weeks before returning to Iraq). Another friend of mine (another Marine company grade officer) is going back for his 3rd tour, and I will ask him how it is when he gets there. All of these Marines are Infantry and don’t spend much (if any) time in the Green Zone or other large insulated bases.

Was that or was that not a poll conducted by subscribers to the magazine?
[…] Results are not representative of the military as a whole. The survey’s respondents, 945 this year, are on average older, more experienced, more likely to be officers and more career-oriented than the overall military population.”[…]

It WAS a poll of the subscribers; however, you are right, the article points out the respondents are more educated, experience, and higher level that the average military personnel. It DOES show a trend though. These are the more experienced military that can make more informed decisions. In addition, the trend is still undisputable, you can, at least, expect a similar trend in the rest of the military. (Obviously it is not full proof – but there are many more polls – again, I am too lazy to find).

Are you saying [Petraeus] didn’t know about the plan for the “surge” before he was put in charge? It doesn’t make a bit of sense that the Pentagon would choose to put him in charge if Petraeus didn’t agree with a major plan change that was most definately known to him prior. BTW Petraeus took command after Rumsfeld resigned who didn’t agree with the surge anyway.

That is my point; they found the General to agree to get credibility for their plan. They sifted through many other (unprecedented) number of Generals before settling (recently) on Petraeus. I am not judging his service (or even that he believes what he says) but, many others, just as qualified have disagreed and felt it necessary to speak up (also unprecedented).

As for Rumsfel’s support of the “Surge”, that was not my point. My point is that Rumsfeld (as a tool of the Bush administration for 6 years) ignored Military leaders almost the entire tenure as Secretary of Defense.

I am not sure if anyone will read this, but I hope so (I spend too much time on it to be discarded).

re-enlisted obviously don’t disagree with the mission that the vast majority are not on the anti-war side.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 6:19 pm

How do you know this? A military time poll in 12/06 seems to disagree. Every heard of stop loss or fighting for your fellow Marines or Soldiers?

He wouldn’t be put in charge if he didn’t agree with the plan. There are plenty of other generals that are just as qualified as Petraeus.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 6:19 pm

He didn’t have a choice in the plan. He was put in charge after it was implemented. The previous people in charge voiced disagreements, but were overridden by Rumsfeld and Bush.

Oh yeah, remember Bush and Condi stating that no one could have foreseen the situation in Iraq? Check out what Cheney (secretary of defense at the time) said. He made similar statements in 1992 and 1996. Still think these guys are telling the truth.

How so? Where were you stationed at? What unit were you in? ect….

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:54 pm

Tracy1,

You want to question my service, fine – I was with 2nd BTN 24th Marines 4th Mar Div. I served in the Sunni Triangle (you know, the “Triangle of Death”). I am an 0331 (machine gunner) by trade, I did a lot of work in the company COC. I was an enlisted Sgt. I was a Cpl that was out for 3 years and re-enlisted in 2004 to fight with my fellow Marines and picked up Sgt in 2005. I didn’t agree with invading Iraq, but I thought I could help my country when my country needed me and be part of the solution. We provided the security, but the reconstruction never came – now the Iraqis want us OUT! I don’t think I need to give you any more than that. Let me know if you still want to question my service. Maybe you want me to describe what it is like to load casualties on a evac helicopter…let me know what other gory details you would like.

As for my comment about the Generals – I was being facetious…LIKE I SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POST, I inferred their support for the Webb amendment by their statements regarding the military being stretched too thin, as well as their views on Iraq etc… do some research on your own.

You talk about “losing” and “winning” in black and white terms. We have not lost a single battle. The military is doing its job (fantastically). The problem is that you can’t force the Iraqis to agree with us (much less like us), just like I can’t convince you.

You still have not given me one good reason for staying. Your reasons are all based on what your crystal ball is telling you about apocalypse when we leave. I am telling you, that trends in the numbers are working against us. The things we are trying to accomplish are worse since we invaded (security, freedom, terrorism). Also, occupations do not tend to work out very well for the occupier – check your history books.

Security IS WORSE – not debateable. The CIA, FBI, NSA and 13 other intelligence agencies that put out the National Intelligence Estimates are coming up with this – you know more than them? They say the same about the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The Taliban was almost exterminated in 2003 before we started diverting troops to Iraq. Now they are stronger than ever and have the most productive opium crops EVER.

“BTW why has NATO not taken up the slack in Afghanistan and given our soldiers a break from the majority of the operations there?”

Make excuses all you want and blame whoever you want. That doesn’t stop the fact that we are being counter productive in Iraq and would have plenty of troops for Afghanistan if we weren’t stuck in the Quagmire of Iraq.

You can slam John Kerry all you want, but he earned his right to criticize the Vietnam War. His opinion seems to be pretty much in line with MOST of the Vietnam vets I have talked to (as well as most historians).

All I ask is just read the Op-Ed from the 82nd Airborne with an open mind. Read the Op-Ed from General Batiste with an Open mind. Read General Newbold’s article in Time with and open mind – at least acknowledge their good points and expertise. Weigh it against what the President and others (who have been consistently WRONG) are saying. That is all I can ask.

Comment by MCMetal — September 20, 2007 @ 5:01 pm

“You’re as pathetically stupid as all Chimpy adorers are ; trying to invoke the memory of Truman and Churchill as a comparison to George W Bushelofcocaine is hysterically insane…………..”

Just stating the facts about both of them getting dogged for their positions and policies while they were in office. You need to read some presidential history books.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 5:17 pm

You need to cease and desist with invoking the names of others and circumstances and situations that are completely different and unconnected with Chimpy and his actions and uselessness.
BTW
You may claim that I need to “read some presidential history books” ; funny how you do not find it odd that the moron you blindly and stupidly support knew absolutely nothing about the country he illegally invaded and has now occupied.
He didn’t even know that there is Shia , Sunni , and Kurds that all live in Iraq ; I guess you find it more of a concern to try and chastise those that are infintely more intelligent and perceptive on a blog site than yourself , than the ‘fearless leader’ you blindly worship to have the slightest inkling on what is going on ……Way to go.

Comment by MCMetal — September 20, 2007 @ 4:58 pm

“How many reports have been given claiming that ?”

Couldn’t tell you. You don’t know either.

Againm how the hell do you know what Bush sees on a daily basis?

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 5:14 pm

I’ve read numerous reports , including the new biography on Chimpy , that states exactly that.
Plus , his own statements , incompetence and behavior lead to that being the only conclusion ; a well-informed individual would not constantly make the laughably stupid pronouncement his dopey ass does daily……

Comment by MCMetal — September 20, 2007 @ 4:49 pm

You actually think Petraeus doesn’t believe anything he is saying while testifying before Congress? You actually think that he would be put into command of all of the troops in Iraq if he didn’t believe in the mission? Who is the fool?

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 5:11 pm

Arrogance isn’t restricted to the delusional moron in the Oval Office ; while Betrayus may have a high opinion of himself , do you believe that those that preceeded him were any less capable and/or less confident in their own abilities ?
BTW
Would Betrayus or anyone be put in charge by this stupid president of ours if they spouted 1 tiny iota of dissension or disagreed with anything in relation to Chimpy’s worthless plan ?

You are obviously a tremendous fool

————————————————————————————

AHHH, but you claiming I’m “just like John Kerry” is really a term of endearment ?
Do you actually read your own idiotic posts before hitting the “Post-I agree” with your clicker ?

=============================================

“You don’t speak for anyone except your own useless self ; much less THE VAST MAJORITY you stupidly claim believe as you do and are soldiers fighting in Iraq.”

I have two friends in Iraq and one in Afghanistan and one brother who just returned from Qatar which is far more than you can speak for. They aren’t on your side…by a long shot. Do you honsetly think that the majority of the soldiers in Iraq are on the anti-war side?

———————————————————————————-

4 PEOPLE OUT OF A CURRENT 160,00 IS A MAJORITY ??????????(Not to mention the 1 million or so US soldiers that have served in Iraq)

Since when ?
As I stated to you before , and in your own inimitably stupid way , you ignored it ; you DON’T KNOW ME , NOR WHO AND WHAT I AM OR WHOM I KNOW.
You’re just talking as if you’re some type of an authority , to coincide with your idiotic attempts to defend the indefensible moron in the Oval Office.
Post fact , not your clueless assessments of others………….
==============================================
“Do not ever again insinuate that the troops in Iraq are there to fight for me or any of my or any American’s FREEDOMS ; that is the biggest bunch of bullshit your side has ever conjured up , and you should be slapped for even attempting to claim that.”

As long as you don’t ever insinuate that majority of the troops don’t agree with why we are in Iraq. That an even bigger bunch of crap that your side has conjured up.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 5:09 pm

Point out where I claimed that I speak for the entire US military , or their beliefs on Iraq , and I will finally grant you credit for something……
If you can’t , you better apologize to me , and admit you are as full of shit as our Chimperor in Chief , and a colossal hypocrite for claiming I’m in breach of TP’s Terms of Use while you’re similarly guilty of the same…….

Comment by MCMetal — September 20, 2007 @ 4:32 pm

I guess you will have to wait and see.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:54 pm

Yeah , until Jan 2009 , anyway.

BTW
You’re as pathetically stupid as all Chimpy adorers are ; trying to invoke the memory of Truman and Churchill as a comparison to George W Bushelofcocaine is hysterically insane…………..

Again why are your a constant liar when you agreed to TPs “Terms of Use?”

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:52 pm

How many reports have been given claiming that ?
How many reports have been written that claimed Chimpy insists on VIEWING EVERYTHING ?
And whom are we to believe ?
The same jackass that claimed they didn’t know the extent or the ferociousness of the coming Katrina hurricane , when there is VIDEOTAPE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY ????

Why are you an apologist and constantly trying to deflect criticism from a documented liar and moron ?
This site more important than the US itself to you ?

You’re a crybaby and a joke………….

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:33 pm

And I see you’re just like Chimpy ; stupid and a chickenhawk………..

Comment by MCMetal — September 20, 2007 @ 4:02 pm

Well if he is in support of the surge then what’s your point?

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:39 pm

Do you believe he has any choice if he intends to be in charge , you delusional and ignorant fool ?
What planet are you from , and why have you come to mine ?

“TP should be more focused on not allowing repeated drivel and fairy-tales to be posted on a constant basis”

That would go against something you don’t care about….free speech.

“….by someone that is part of the group that makes up the most stupid part of the American population ……..You 25%’ers.”

That 25% includes the vast majority of the soldiers in Iraq who you the opportunity to say what you want. I guess they won’t hold it against you. I see you are just like Kerry.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:33 pm

Funny how “free speech” wasn’t your major concern when attempting to cite TP’s Terms of Use earlier , eh hypocrite ?
BTW
You don’t speak for anyone except your own useless self ; much less THE VAST MAJORITY you stupidly claim believe as you do and are soldiers fighting in Iraq.
A claim by your Chimpy/GOP backing stupid ass is about as believable as White House statements on the current state of Iraq.
PS
Do not ever again insinuate that the troops in Iraq are there to fight for me or any of my or any American’s FREEDOMS ; that is the biggest bunch of bullshit your side has ever conjured up , and you should be slapped for even attempting to claim that.
You’re a real piece of crap.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:27 pm

And a lying unintelligible moron’s imbecilic plans/ideas are the solution ??????????????????????

Boy , that’s just brilliant…………

Comment by MCMetal — September 20, 2007 @ 3:56 pm

“If you believe that you’re going to win over the majority of Islamicists by illegally invading Islamic worshipping countries on a whim…”

The Iraqis didn’t have much of a problem with the U.S. removing Saddam and neither did his neighbors. It’s what we did AND didn’t do after the invasion that has the Iraqis in such an uproar. Again the plan to win the peace sucked and Rumsfeld was the one who devised it. Bush was dumb to go along with it.

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:19 pm

Do you laughably (and stupidly) believe there was any “plan” to begin with , outside of occupation ?

I don’t recall the majority of Iraqis calling for our help ; and please , do not try to use human rights violations or any other bullshit excuse as some type of ‘reason’.
Are you going to claim that Iraq comes anywhere near the type abuses that happen in Saudi Arabia or China daily ?

Roosevelt insisted on viewing ALL THE ACCOUNTS/NEWS on the daily occurrences of every battle everywhere ; Chimpy insists on only seeing positive news , and positive news alone.
“War president” my ass ; he’s a delusional moron , and you insist on apologizing for the jerkoff.
You’re an ass…….

Comment by Tracy1 — September 20, 2007 @ 4:13 pm

The big differences ?

Roosevelt never claimed we were “winning” when we weren’t ; and Roosevelt didn’t invade a sovereign nation without provocation nor illegally.
Chimpy has ………..He’s a lying sack of shit , and you’re a disgace and no American ; you’re as phony as a $3 bill.

Why do you believe you should be given an unlimited supply of time and chances/theories/plans/ideas ?

This is not an indictment of Betrayus ; no matter how hard and desperate you and the rest of the losers that still support our idiotic president and his imbecilic Iraq Adventure want to claim it is…….

You’ve proven you don’t deserve it on any level; end of story……..Now stop posting your Chimpy Adoration Syndrome-driven nonsensical responses.

The same 16 intelligence agencies agree that the likely hood of the “terrorists” following us home OR even taking over Iraq is “unlikely”. They put these out in the NIEs (I think I a quarterly basis).

This is pointless. You keep spouting the same drivel from the same people that have been wrong for the last 6 1/2 years. You continue to ignore the advice from ALL the people that have been consistently right. In Bush’s words “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again”.