Petraeus’ casualty methodology finally revealed.
By on Sep 21st, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Petraeus’ casualty methodology finally revealed.
Earlier this month, Government Accountability Office chief David Walker testified that he could not “get comfortable” with General David Petraeus’ methodology for determining sectarian violence. Petraeus’ methodology has remained unknown throughout his testimony to Congress and the pursuing debate on Iraq. But today, through a Freedom of Information Act request, TPMmuckraker’s Spencer Ackerman has finally brought it to light. Check out Spencer’s rundown here and the actual documents here.
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61 Responses to “Petraeus’ casualty methodology finally revealed.”
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As Forrest Gump would say: "Stupid is as Stupid does." Not enough lipstick to dress this pig.
September 21st, 2007 at 11:20 pmI think that General Petraeus should be asked to come back before Congress and testify (if he hasn't done so already to this point) as to what his exact orders were. Was he ordered to reduce sectarian violence? Or was he ordered to report that sectarian violence was down (without citing actual causes unrelated to US efforts, such as that ethnic cleansing has been successful in some neighborhoods, so there are fewer sectarian killings. They're done.)
Remember that Bush is more concerned with appearances than with actual facts, especially if those facts prove that he's lying, as they have a tendency to do. Bad facts, bad!
September 21st, 2007 at 11:30 pmJesus Christ....I think I've got enough academic credentials to be considered at least a fairly educated guy, and this classification methodology makes my head swim... sunnis killed by carbombs arent counted...Sunni attacks on SHia government/police arent counted as sectarian violence...relying on the honesty of the iraqi government for stats on executions, murders and kidnappings.. I can see why the guy from the Government Accountability Office couldnt get comfortable with this methodology...
How about they just add up the number of people who died, period?
Lets face it.... we ALL know, (well, except jake, bigfoot, exley, hermaphodite, etc) that these guys sat around in a room for weeks, using different methodologies and definitions until they found the one that got the lowest numbers..
September 21st, 2007 at 11:37 pmThis just in, Feds investigating allegations that Blackwater is smuggling american weapons to terrorist groups in Iraq…
http://www.cnn.com/ 2007/ WORLD/ meast/ 09/ 21/ blackwater.probe.ap/ index.html
“The U.S. Attorney’s Office in Raleigh, North Carolina, is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. “
September 21st, 2007 at 11:44 pmHellinaBucket,
When you check in....I don't want to say I told you so...but:
"Putting one rumor to rest: there is no consideration given to the placement of an entry wound on a murder suspect's head in the tabulation of sectarian violence, contrary to a Washington Post report earlier this month."
September 21st, 2007 at 11:46 pmComment by Chocolate Jesus
Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled weapons into Iraq that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization
Bush's buddies committing treason?
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:21 amI wonder if this is where the "missing weapons" went as well?
Comment by Jake D. — September 22, 2007 @ 12:24 am
Bzzzt. Bzzzzzzzzzzzz
Damn computer keeps making the same useless buzzing sound.
Bzzzzjakebzzzzzzzzz
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:36 amKeep up the great work, Exley : )
Comment by Jake D. — September 22, 2007 @ 12:41 am
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Dang. I knew I should have bought an "independent" PC.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:50 amI think that Betrayus should be brought back to testify before Congress UNDER OATH this time. And they should ask him some hard questions such as why his numbers don't agree with anyone else' numbers.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:51 amWith this garbly gook insolvent subjective math it is breathtaking in that we were able to land on the moon, harness the atom, or cured diseases.
These retards gene pools should not have evolved. Only in Bush world does failure thrive.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:03 amLooks like a bunch of weak Dems have to be replaced as well. A full house-cleaning is in order until we get a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Enough of the repig perverts and child-molesters, and the dems that allow them to get away with it. Bush and Cheney should have been convicted and sentenced before 2001 was over, after the massive failure of 9/11.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:19 am>When you check in….I don’t want to say I told you so
So one allegation out of many wasnt correct?
(Thank god the people your rooting for are perfect, otherwise I'm sure you;d be harping on every single inaccuracy they put forth)
Doesnt change the fact the only numbers that indicate any military progress (none of you idiots is even trying to claim theres any political progress, which is what the surge was supposed to buy time for)
is Brayus's numbers, which rely partially on the honesty of the Iraqi government.
Are you going to vouch for the honesty of the Iraqi government Exley?
And Exley, I was wondering, it seems some terrorist types outbid us, some of our sunni "allies" accepted a 1.5 million dollar offer to knock off thier boss...one of saddams old cronies who we bribed to be our friend.
So my question to you is, how much of our taxpayer money are you willing to spend trying to outbid terrorists for the loyalty of the sunnis?
And does it concern you at all that we're arming people that are hostile to the central government?
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:42 amDisproving Darwin’s theory? Someone call that Missouri school board!!!
Comment by Jake D. — September 22, 2007 @ 1:08 am
Add Karma Recommend (1)
Darwin was disproved some time ago. But not as you wished it.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:46 amBetraeus is but a play on words aimed at the stolen budget for Irag in 2004-2005 and the corruption in the INF. Of course we know he is trying to create peace in iraq, but that peace must come thru deals with the enemy, as seen today.
All in all it means nothing more than turdblossom
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:50 amAt the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what methodology was used by Gen Petraeus -or by anyone else in this administration, for that matter.
Whatever their own numbers say, if these don't conform with the Bush administration's spin, they will be promptly ignored, we will be told that the numbers don't mean what we know they do, and the mouth breathing, kool-aid drinking Bush loyalists will be out, in full force, defending the lies of this administration, yet again.
The Bush White House doesn't exactly have a track record of adhering to its own standards. And the Bush cultists don't exactly have shown any capacity for critical thinking.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:57 amgoing back to an old thread...
Re: Swiftboat lies from Karl Rove being OK but Moveon's hostile public questioning being off limits.
Exley your a moron. Can you make us a list of exactly which category of military people its ok to slander and which it isnt? And can you please explain why someone currently being in the military should make them immune from criticism? Does Brayus coming out 6 weeks before the 2004 election and making blatantly untrue rosy descriptions of the iraq situation, (much like the ones he's making now) make him a political tool? Are you truly so naive as to think he didnt do this to influence elections? You think he didnt say things were "going great" in iraq in 2004 so that more people would vote for bush? Brayus is every bit as much of a political opportunist as Kerry, but just because hes currently wearing a uniform AND saying what you want to hear, in your imaginary world of arbitrary dinstinctions that makes him an entirely different species than kerry. I love it how you have a justification for every bit of venom and slander that comes from your side, but a little bit of venom gets slung your way and you whine and cry like a baby....
by the way, during war, the president is the highest ranking military officer there is, so I guess you agree that republican politicans attacks on Clinton and allegations of "wag the dog" for Bosnia were totally uncalled for, right?
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:46 amWell, well.
Seems that MoveOn.org had it right after all.
The general's testimony has betrayed the truth and left the military in an unchanging and unpolitically viable war, at the same levels as pre-surge indefinitely.
All I can really say in a positive light, is that he did not betray the President's intentions......just the interests of truth and the US.
I really hope this talking point story is not true. Means to verify?
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:48 amI meant politically unviable, Iraqi politics that is.
Poor troops, no sign of relief.
If they really wanted to continue the war, they should have had the gonads to call a draft and send half a million.
Guess that was politically unviable too (US politics).
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:04 amThe views of Alan Greenspan on Pres Bush's tax cuts, finally revealed:
In the book [Greenspan] fiercely opposes the Bush tax cuts. He feared the budget surpluses enjoyed in 2000 would be transformed into long-term deficits. He worried that entitlement spending would leave "a very large hole in future budgets." Not facing this was "a failure." He disdains the Great Pork Spree of the '00s. The unifying idea that governed Bush White House economic thinking -- "deficits don't matter" -- was, simply, wrong.
Now he tells us
And yet, when it really mattered, Mr. Greenspan chose not to say a word.
At any rate, it is still interesting to see another high profile figure, abandoning the Bush sinking ship.
(Before any troll gives me the old, tired "liberal media" tagline: that's is Peggy Noonan's opinion piece, and the link is to the Wall Street Journal.)
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:28 amOkay, so now we see from these documents obtained from TPM that not only did the MoveOn.org ad contain a despicable slander against Gen. Petraeus (a libel that was rightly codemned by an overwhelming bipartisan majority of the U.S. Senate), but that the ads allegations (based on erroneous or dishonest reporting) were completely wrong...
The ad said, "deaths by car bombs don’t count. The Washington Post reported that assassinations only count if you’re shot in the back of the head — not the front."
Well, well, well, we know see that is 100% incorrect.
Deaths from VBIEDs, SVBIEDs (i.e., car bombs) are indeed counted.
And, "there is no consideration given to the placement of an entry wound on a murder suspect’s head in the tabulation of sectarian violence, contrary to a Washington Post report earlier this month.â€
Will MoveOn.org run another ad admitting that all its facts in the prior ad were wrong???? Doubtful....That was take class and decency -- two things about which MoveOn.org knows nothing.
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:08 amWayne A Schneider posted:
I think that General Petraeus should be asked to come back before Congress and testify (if he hasn’t done so already to this point) as to what his exact orders were.
Well, it's a moot point, but I don't believe he actually "testified" the first time. (To "testify", one has to swear or affirm, under the penalty of perjury, to tell the truth. I seem to recall reading that Petraeus did NOT testify.)
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:56 amIf he is asked to return to Congress, there should be no excuse for his failing to be sworn in to testify, with the understanding that ANY lie (or even an attempt at obfuscation or misdirection or misleading) WILL result in a charge of perjury.
Betray-us' methodology is nothing new - con artists have been "cooking the books" forever. It's the same old song with these frauds, isn't it? Do they really believe that their methodology and tactics are unique? Predictable. Transparent. And will be outed to the american people.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:10 amJosephW: I'm with you on this one. I don't call "not being sworn in" testifying by any stretch of the imagination. If not sworn in, then it's simply a "probe". Testifying under oath is THE only way to ensure that the individual is telling the truth or perjuring himself.
This congress need to stop playing games with the people's trust and their hard-earned money. Either $hit or get off the pot, Congress. We're getting sick and tired of being played like a fiddle.
If this sham of a congress doesn't move toward impeachment, they will have nothing on their side of the ledger in terms of expressing the will of the people and accomplishing something credible. And, they know all too well what this means: The People who put them in office will "sweep them out" just as fast because they're getting totally disgusted with the whole sorry lot of them.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:13 am"You can't put lipstick on a pig" and "you can't polish a turd". Petreus is both as he permits his years of service to be besmerched by agreeing to function as Bush's New Poodle. For all of his supposed years of military service, he should have been much smarter than to "bite" on this obvious job of providing cover for this dictator. Now Bush will take him down the tubes like he took Colin Powell down the rabbit hole. Petreus' rep was already "tanked" the moment he decided to trade his honor for a paycheck and a taste of the limelight. Little did he know that the limelight is actually a search light shining through to his soul....
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:17 amPetreus certainly didn't need MoveOn to ridicule his character. As Olberman said so appropriately two night ago: The General betrayed himself before he betrayed this country.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:19 amExley: Pony up your so-called "documents" from TPM please so everyone can see. I suspect they're bogus like most of your claims.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:23 amAll I can see is that the reichwingnuts are rabid to change the conversation from Petreus' obvious lack of character and honor to "how things are calculated" in his so-called faux report. That's their typical MO though - when they can't win an argument, they transparently attempt to hijack the conversation. I still don't buy any of what they are selling. They're known liars so why should anyone believe a word they say?
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:25 amBetrayUs' shady documents, the Blackwater Massacre, and new scandal over Blackwater weapons to militants who shoot US troops are further proof that Bush's illegal immoral War has destroyed our nation.
No worry for Exlax and his friend Jake here. They refuse to enlist (the recruiters will take anyone now). Rather sit at a keyboard and regurgitate White House spin.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:36 amWARNER: Does that make America safer?
PETRAEUS: Sir, I don't know actually.
That's what we should have been talking about over the past week, not some newspaper ad. Just like they do on these threads, the cons hijack the issues and reframe them.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:53 amBetray-us will look like a total buffoon when he has to substantiate these bogus documents and fudged numbers. The Blackwater debacle will hang like a cloud of doom over his head as he attempts to polish Bush's turd.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:53 amCandyce: Yes, the Repuked Reichwingnuts tried to change the dialogue to a citizen's ad instead of Betray-us' comment about us not being safer. It didn't work so well, however and the conversation never really took off with the people. Like Betray-us, we still realize that we are definitely NOT safer and regardless of how you try to put lipstick on this pig, he's going to squeeeeel from here to kingdom come.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:55 amChoc. Jesus: Thanks for bringing new heat to the Blackwater Debacle. Bush's nazi hit squad is now well known by the bulk of americans and they are appalled. Right out of the Hitler/Goering playbook!
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:56 amIf Betray-us refuses to be sworn in when he provides testimony to the Senate, then we know he's lying.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:59 amPetraeus personality and style and his military rank should not be the issue here.
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:05 amThe becnchmarks put to achieve certain goals should remain the issue.
The ad that followed by Senate vote has nothing to do with benchmarks but a lot to do with Petraeus himself.
That is not the issue here that concerns Americans.
While soldiers are killed and wounded,the Senate chose to debate the Moveon. ad. instead.
A sign of failure on both parties...
The thing that has outraged me for so long is that our government spends all its effort trying to catagorize these deaths and no effort at all in prosecuting the killing as murder. Our trolls scold us being insensitive to the plight of the Iraqis should we end our occupation, calling us hard-hearted and callous about the bloodbath they say will ensue without the presence of our troops, but they fail to acknowledge that we have, in fact, PRESIDED OVER the ethnic cleansing of huge swaths of Iraq in the past five years.
Worse, we've enabled it. We've captured gigantic stockpiles of conventional explosives and then sat back and watched them be looted by the local population. We've flooded the region with arms and ammunition of all sorts. We've actively armed sectarian groups on both side of the conflict.
Indeed, our complete and utter incompetence at administrering this region which we've been told is vital to our security, is so vast as to be beyond the scope of the suspension of disbelief. Such monumental incompetence is not mere criminal negligence, but more likely through design.
I begin to think that our goal from the start was to ethnically clense Iraq into three homogenious regions, each with nice straight borders and clear assignment to corresponding oil companies. Why else was Cheney so unwilling to discuss his energy meetings?
Such a result will, no doubt, provide a benefit for the balance sheets of these oil companies, but it is a betrayal on a cosmic scale, for it was paid for by the rape of our honor, our treasury, and our psyche, as well as the blood and minds of our friends, families and countrymen.
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:16 amDoes the accuracy of Petraeus "progress" in Iraq really matter?. Iraq is such a mess....no one really knows who is killing who...and why.
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:18 amThe General has succeeded in giving the Republicans in congress just enough good news to keep them from jumping ship. Without republican defections, the Democrats can't do much to change Bush's policies in Iraq.
The facts remain: There has been no substantial political progress, and the surge in troops is not sustainable.
And the insurgency is very good at lying low until a time of their choosing. Witness the "defeated taliban" in Afghanistan.
Blackwater is the elite Praetorian Guard for the administration, quite fitting for Julius Caesar Petraeus.
All hail noble Petraeus!
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:25 amBadger @ 40,
While I agree that the substance of Patraeus' report has little impact on the situation on the ground in Iraq, I think its accuracy is important. We must assert that it is unacceptable for our Government to lie to us. If we surrender this basic tenet, we lose our democracy.
On a side note, we don't actually need Republican defections to end the war; 41 Senators could refuse to approve any legistlation providing additional funding. That would cost us our self-image as being the "nice and polite" party, though.
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:38 amPatsy is just doing what Fox Republicans do. Lying.
Here's another whopper. Oh the Fox Republican officials and politicians made a name for themselves by bashing, bashing and bashing some more the terrible liberal big government tendencies of the Democrats. Here's the frops' dirty little secret, they are twice as much big government big spenders!
Yes. It's the truth. More massive hypocrisy from the frops, who are twice as guilty of one of their "worst" accusations towards Democrats. And to make matters worse the frops are spending all this money on our collective credit. The frops have run our debt into the sky. I'm sick of these fools. Not just their outrageously bad and incompetent performance - also the frops' arrogance and hypocrisy like they walk on water. It's time for them to go. The cold hard truth is that many of them belong in jail, in fact.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/22/washington/22memo.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:55 amActually, the low approval numbers for Bush and the GOP from their own base is because of their big government policies. The GOP abandoned their base just as the DNC has apandoned their base by following the likes of Moveon.org.
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:09 amabout the "placement of an entry wound",
as one TPM commentor put it:
jolly ranchero wrote on September 21, 2007 5:29 PM:
"and the type of attack in order to determine ethnic or sectarian violence."
You don't think this describes the position of the bullet rumor? Did you really think that the "side of the head wound" would make into the official description/protocol verbatim?
the wapo got the info from somewhere...
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:15 amand moveon was quoting wapo...
...
> Choc. Jesus: Thanks for bringing new heat to the Blackwater Debacle.
No problem...these guys are scumbags, and I hope I get a chance to be involved as a lawyer in a lawsuit against them someday.
Looking at this methodology document, I highly suspect its been altered since all the heat about kooky methodology reporting game down.
take a look at the bottom of this page:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/icd-methodology/?resultpage=3&
Executions: ..."shot anywhere in the head"......
now answer me this...if this document was made BEFORE the wapo claims that location of headshot mattered...why would they go out of thier way to stress "anywhere in the head"? ...why not just "shot in the head"? Why would the specific locality of the headshot matter unless it had already been raised as an embarassing methodology? Strangely, this is the only method of death that they go into such inexplicably painful detail to explain..
And in any case, exley, learn to read. Once again, your seeing what you want to see. They relied SOLELY on the honesty of the iraqi government to verify execution numbers. So therefore, the United States definition of "execution" is irrelevant...if the iraq government decides to only count people shot in the back of the head...well....I guess thats the criteria used.
Are you willing to vouch for the honesty and consistencey of the iraqi government?
Iraqi and United States officials sure arent working under the same definition of "blackwater has to leave", because the united states completely ignored the iraqis statement that blackwater was banned and had to leave.
If you have any documentation of a single blackwater operative leaving iraq when the iraqis told them to, I'd love to see it.
Oh, and car bomb deaths only count if the death is of a person who belongs
to a different sect than the alleged bomber. Also, they dont count attacks on government officals as "sectarian", only attacks on civilians. So there are some rather stunningly broad omissions in these numbers, by any stretch of the imagination.
Exley, you think thier was any good reason a decent, upstanding man like Betrayus wouldnt take an oath to tell the truth before his testimony, just like almost everyone who testifies before congress does? You do know that sworn testimony is generally found to be more credible than unsworn testimony, right? Its why everyone who tesifies in a court of law has to take an oath to tell the truth.
In fact, Betrayus is such a noble man, I'm surprised he didnt insist he take an oath, to show how interested in telling the truth he was...
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:32 amSeveral reports since the General made his appearance seem to disagree with him. I think he was truthful in what he did say, but I am a little doubtful of what he did not say.
September 22nd, 2007 at 11:05 amThat was take class and decency — two things about which MoveOn.org knows nothing.
Comment by Exley — September 22, 2007 @ 4:08 am
Aaah... this is rich, coming from a staunch supporter of an administration with no class, or decency whatsoever.
Pray, tell us, Exley: How decent is it to invade a country that poses no threat? How much class do you find in an administration that has sunk (and lost, without making anyone acountable) billions of dollars into the Iraqi black hole?
After all these years of being mislead, deceived, lied to, you are still as pigheaded as ever.
September 22nd, 2007 at 11:24 amBlackwater = black market sales of weapons
Blackwater = indiscriminate attacks on civilians
Blackwater = protected mercenaries of the US, free from oversight, investigation, prosecution.
All those movies depicting lawlessness and mayhem in the future may be more prescient than they thought.
September 22nd, 2007 at 11:24 am>Blackwater = protected mercenaries
>of the US, free from oversight,
> investigation, prosecution.
Yes.... interestingly enough, these guys dont meet two of the five requirements our government says you have to have to be afforded the legal status of a lawful combatant.
1) They dont wear uniforms
2) They arent regulated by any form of military justice.
Ergo, by the united states own logic, they are unlawful combatants. They have no more rights than any insurgent or terrorist who doesnt wear a uniform.
September 22nd, 2007 at 11:35 amOut standing post's this morning...Well, except from the troll's...First off I must say I am with Moveon.org..As you all know I am anti war except in self defence...Next I will print I am apalled at the neo-con's and dem enabeler's...Look's like many will be booted out on both sides this coming election..After 45 year's of backing my partyI have become enraged at their spinless action's and see only a hand full that are worthy of my vote..There is no way I would vote for any of the neo-con's with all their baggage of murder, lies, theft of our resources, distruction of our constitution, pedophiles and closeted gay's...Being Gay is O.K. being a hypocrit is not...Having said all this I am looking hard for good people like Kucenich to vote for..I do wish Gore would run, Oh well!
I became livid this week over the 2 request's for money by the Dem's..The first one came from..Off the table Nancy and the second from Albright...I plan to send out my second notice to Ms.Albright just as I did the one to Nancy..."Don't dunn me for fund's untill you do your job"..Put impeachment back on the table and stop playing nice with bush, people are dieing while you all play polatics..You will get no fund's from me or my vote's untill you all grow a spine.....As alway's it will do no good but I will continue untill it doe's.
This entire war thing is madening, we are supplying both side's against our own...The only one's benefiting are the war monger's, manufacturing friend's and big oil..Every one else is becoming a casuelty...War's and relegion are big business...Any one who believes this bush war was (not) planned before he and cheney ran for office is slow witted...
Squeing all the death number's is a pathetic attemp that countless time's has worked with this evil bunch in office, my guess is there are thousand's more of our own that are no correctly counted..Read some where our losses were beyond 8,000 several month's ago..Have also read there are 40,000 that are AWOL...Don't have any fact's to back those number's up but would guess from all the breaking military number's on death's of Iraq's being way low that there is a strong possability we will find out when these happy war monger's leave office all their number's will be lie's....Thank you all for your great post's....Blessings
September 22nd, 2007 at 11:38 am>They relied SOLELY on the honesty of the iraqi government
> to verify execution numbers.
Excuse me, I actually meant "to provide execution numbers" not "to verify execution numbers"... the united states just took the iraq stats for executions at their word, without doing any independent verification that these numbers were accurate, or that they were using identical criteria
to define execution...how convenient... Id LOVE see the arabic document that instructs Iraqis on how to define "execution" in order for it to jive with our definition.... Exley, maybe you can do a FOIA request and see if it exists...i'll bet you 100$ it doesnt... want to bet?
Also, is this the exact same methodology that was being used in earlier years? if not, its totally irrlevant in any case.. apples and oranges...
September 22nd, 2007 at 11:47 amAnd yet, when it really mattered, Mr. Greenspan chose not to say a word.
Actually, Greenspan did "say a word". He ENDORSED Bush's tax cuts for the very wealthy. Why he is now saying he was opposed to the tax cuts is beyond me. It looks like another Bush sycophant trying to clean up their legacy. Sorry Greenspan, the stain of your endorsing Bush and participation in the sub-prime mortgage debacle will go down in history with you. Nothing you can do to change it.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:12 pmI think that if I were the general, I would want to say that I don't need a congressional resolution to defend me -- I would believe that I am perfectly capable of defending myself.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:23 pmAnybody out there remember the "body counts" of the Vietnam War? We were told -- day after day, night after night -- that US forces were winning because we had killed 349, 1298, 4608, ... , ..., ... Viet Cong that day. Wow. Very impressive. This sham kept the War going from 1965-1973.
Fast forward to 2007 in Iraq, where we now calculate the entry point of the bullet into the victim to measure our "success." We are seeing progress, don't you know? Gen. BetrayUs told us so and now we know where he got his "facts & figures." MoveOn was right. This man's "testimony" (not sworn in), as Bush's shill, was a betrayal of our nation and our troops on the ground in Iraq.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:47 pm"Actually, the low approval numbers for Bush and the GOP from their own base is because of their big government policies. The GOP abandoned their base just as the DNC has apandoned their base by following the likes of Moveon.org."
Comment by Heymack
The GOP didn't "abandon their base;" rather, they were just demonstrating that conservatism is, and always was, a scam perpetrated on the American people. Reagan was as high-spending as Bush, yet "conservatives" revere Ronny, while castigating Bush. When Reagan left office, conservatives thought him just short of saintly - even though he trashed conservative principles every bit as much as Bush. The difference was that then, they could write off Reagan's conservative apostasy as an anomaly, while Bush's "unconservative" rule is seen a confirmation that conservatism is simply a scam, perpetrated on those steely-eyed believers of Adam Smith. So they must vocally try to distance themselves, or risk the truth becoming more widely known: conservatism is a scam, perpetrated on the weak-minded.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:51 pmFast forward to 2007 in Iraq, where we now calculate the entry point of the bullet into the victim to measure our “success.
Putting one rumor to rest: there is no consideration given to the placement of an entry wound on a murder suspect's head in the tabulation of sectarian violence, contrary to a Washington Post report earlier this month.
I have no direct knowlege of this " bullet entry controversy", but assuming the Washington Post was wrong about the "placement of an entry wound" being a consideration, I think we should stop citing it. There is plenty of correct evidence that Bush has made a mess of the War in Iraq. Why give the Bush supporters a club to hit us over the head with?
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:04 pmScrupulous concern for the truth should be a hallmark of the anti-war effort.
Excellent point, chocolate jesus. Unlawful combatants.
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:09 pm#30,
'Pony up your so-called “documents†from TPM please so everyone can see.'
Ummmm...Veritas...The link to the MNF-I documents are provided right in the article ThinkProgress summary above:
"Check out Spencer’s rundown here and the actual documents here."
Just click and read, Veritas....It's not complicated.
Wow.
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:52 pmVeritas, Just in case you still find clicking the link provided by Thinkprogress above to0 complicated, here is that same link again:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/icd-methodology/
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:01 pm60 - ok, Pyrrho, you win.
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:43 pmnow, what of it?
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:43 pmIf we split the camel's hair once, or one thousand times, it is still a camel's hair. Equivocation and prevarication are still tools that can only de-struct, Ex; they can never succeed in productive applications.
Funny to see you practicing the selective thin-skinnedness you find so recherche in other contexts, Ex. I'm sure General Dave is a burly enough man's man to withstand ink and paper, aren't you?
Perhaps your outrage would be better directed at the "Commander-Guy" who ordered his General to play Press Secretary. Everyone knows cute blondes are a better choice for that duty, right?
Guess it goes to show that even the most resolute of "warriors" grasps for straws at the ebb of his strength.
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:50 pm>It’s not complicated.
Neither is the fact that "alleged" american methods of determining what is counted as an executions is irrelvant, because they've outsourced the job of counting executions to iraqis. Given the bang up job the Iraqis are doing of about every other political task we give them, I think its fair to be skeptical...
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:34 pmI have repeatedly defended the dem's efforts in congress. I've pointed out that the obstructionist repubs have undermined the hearings and any bills they tried to pass. i.e. they had to fund the troops etc.
This was something I can't defend. It is disgusting to me. Why did they do it? Anyway, I wrote this letter to the 22 Democratic signees:
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But thanks to 22 Democratic clowns joining a Republican circus, the Senate was able to break the partisan impasse by overwhelmingly passing one bold measure: A defense of Gen. David Petraeus against a MoveOn.org newspaper ad.
The resolution expressed “full support†for the general and condemned “personal attacks on the honor and integrity of General Petraeus and all members of the United States Armed Forces.â€
Cable news networks that cheer-led our country into invading Iraq took a break from their latest all-O.J.-all-the-time binge to make an antiwar ad more controversial than the ongoing slaughter of Iraqis and Americans that the invasion predictably unleashed.
And 22 Democrats were more desperate to distance themselves from the 3-million-member MoveOn than from less than 50 Republican dead-enders bent on prolonging the killing.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/22/4031/
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SHAME ON YOU!!!!
I am definately not a left wing radical anti-war zealot. I am, however a Democrat that has continuously covered the behinds and defended our Dem leaders in congress in letters to congress and on many many blogs and message boards. Friday, 22 of you did the undefendable this time.
HOW COULD YOU???? Walk the repub party line???? What exactly did moveon ever do you? What questions did they ask in that ad that wasn't on the minds of us all? How can you continue to allow the repubs to bully you?
Betrayus did exactly that. He crawled in bed with the neo-cons and lied. I have watched everyday the growing list of dead Iraqis and US troops. We have lost more than any of the previous years.
The violence is down? In Baghdad? The security has made what changes in the political climate?
No matter who is in the majority in congress it is still the same old game. I have tried to forget that we were the majority when we invaded Iraq, but the dem congress goes right back to letting the repubs run the policies no matter who is the majority.
I am ashamed to call myself a Democrat after 42 years of voting dem.
You couldn't get a bill passed that gave health insurance, one that reinstated habeus corpus, or one that provided our troops needed home time, but you helped the repubs by signing on to a non-binding bill suppressing the help the Dem congress needs to bring out the truth, the main stream media's blitz for continuing this war until the corporations can control ALL of Iraq.
In passing that bill you helped cover the truth and blocked exposing the bushco's lies.
Forget the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis men women and children, the deaths of almost 3800 US troops and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, in and out of Iraq, the diseases caused by witholding purifications for their drinking water (cholera for one), 120-130 degree heat with no electricity.
Katrina and the handling of the aftermath should have given us at least a tiny fraction of understanding of what Iraqis have been going through everyday for over 4 years. 3000 dead on 9/11 should have given us a tiny understanding of what hundreds of thousand of Iraqi deaths is doing to Iraq. A people that never did anything to us.
The Democratic congress should stop listening to repubs and Lieberman and the main stream media and start using their heads and listen to their constituants....'we the people'.
I will still vote in 08, but more and more dems are saying that they will not.
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September 23rd, 2007 at 3:42 amThe 22 Democrats can be reached by dialing the Congressional switchboard: 202-224-3121. They are Baucus (MT), Bayh (IN), Cardin (MD), Carper (DE), Casey (PA), Conrad (ND), Dorgan (ND), Feinstein (CA), Johnson (SD), Klobuchar (MN), Kohl (WI), Landrieu (LA), Leahy (VT), Lincoln (AR), McCaskill (MO), Mikulski (MD), Nelson (FL), Nelson (NE), Pryor (AR), Salazar (CO), Tester (MT) and Webb (VA).