Comments on: Bush pushes for telco immunity. http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/ Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:51:13 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Chocolate Jesus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-2/#comment-4115639 Chocolate Jesus Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:25:54 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4115639 >Is there precedence for immunity being granted after the fact? As much as I hate to say it, I beleive theres nothing in the constitution prohibiting making some illegal act retroactively legal. There is a prohibition against bills of attainder, but bills of attainder are, to my understanding, essentially things which makes someone a criminal for doing something which was legal when done, not vice versa. So if congress were to give in and grant retroactive immunity to the telecoms, I suspect there is little that could be done in it. although... an interesting argument could be made that that the retroactive law deprived you of right to sue for past wrongdoing, and this effectively caused you to be deprived of property, this property being lawsuit in question. However, I am not at all sure what the caselaw is on whether a legal claim is considered "property" or not. So the short answer, from someone whose just a law student, is that if congress gives these guys retroactive immunity, it will, at best, be a severly uphill battle from there.. >Is there precedence for immunity being granted after the fact?

As much as I hate to say it, I beleive theres nothing in the constitution prohibiting making some illegal act retroactively legal. There is a prohibition against bills of attainder, but bills of attainder are, to my understanding, essentially things which makes someone a criminal for doing something which was legal when done, not vice versa.
So if congress were to give in and grant retroactive immunity to the telecoms, I suspect there is little that could be done in it.
although…
an interesting argument could be made that that the retroactive law deprived you of right to sue for past wrongdoing, and this effectively caused you to be deprived of property, this property being lawsuit in question. However, I am not at all sure what the caselaw is on whether a legal claim is considered “property” or not.

So the short answer, from someone whose just a law student, is that if congress gives these guys retroactive immunity, it will, at best, be a severly uphill battle from there..

]]> By: Bad Eye http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-2/#comment-4115208 Bad Eye Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:44:43 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4115208 Hmmmm...the trolls are quite absent from this thread, too. Maybe they've worn out their talking points...? Hmmmm…the trolls are quite absent from this thread, too. Maybe they’ve worn out their talking points…?

]]> By: Xisithrus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-2/#comment-4114967 Xisithrus Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:00:12 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114967 Anyone aware of how the “pundits” feel about this? Comment by Tweedster Pundits dont have feelings, they desire only ratings. Anyone aware of how the “pundits” feel about this?

Comment by Tweedster

Pundits dont have feelings, they desire only ratings.

]]> By: impeachcheneythenbush http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-2/#comment-4114964 impeachcheneythenbush Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:55:58 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114964 What happens if Congress doesn’t pass this revised FISA bill? Won’t the bill passed in August expire 6 months from August (February 2008). What will happen? Comment by Coffins Draped with a Flag — October 10, 2007 @ 1:29 pm The Constitution will go back into effect, at least until Congress passes the next boneheaded anti-rights legislation. Comment by toasterhead Phew…. thanks. That makes me feel better, for a while anyway. Comment by Coffins Draped with a Flag — October 10, 2007 @ 2:09 pm Toasterhead and Coffins - I wouldn't "feel better" if I were you. The original FISA (which has actually been revised at least once since 9/11) is hardly what I would call a Constitutional measure. Unless you think secret courts and a radically modified and weakened Fourth Amendment is Constitutional. What happens if Congress doesn’t pass this revised FISA bill? Won’t the bill passed in August expire 6 months from August (February 2008). What will happen?

Comment by Coffins Draped with a Flag — October 10, 2007 @ 1:29 pm

The Constitution will go back into effect, at least until Congress passes the next boneheaded anti-rights legislation.

Comment by toasterhead

Phew…. thanks. That makes me feel better, for a while anyway.

Comment by Coffins Draped with a Flag — October 10, 2007 @ 2:09 pm

Toasterhead and Coffins – I wouldn’t “feel better” if I were you. The original FISA (which has actually been revised at least once since 9/11) is hardly what I would call a Constitutional measure. Unless you think secret courts and a radically modified and weakened Fourth Amendment is Constitutional.

]]> By: MapleStreet http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-2/#comment-4114824 MapleStreet Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:50:52 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114824 Of course, there is always the possibility of the bill titled: Give Telcos immunity by ending the war in Iraq and Insuring all Americans Of course, there is always the possibility of the bill titled:

Give Telcos immunity by ending the war in Iraq and Insuring all Americans

]]> By: MapleStreet http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114807 MapleStreet Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:46:05 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114807 If the repubs are for personal responsibility, why are they pushing all these laws that release folks from responsibility for their actions ? If the repubs are for personal responsibility, why are they pushing all these laws that release folks from responsibility for their actions ?

]]> By: Xisithrus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114754 Xisithrus Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:32:26 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114754 There is no difference anymore. They are ALL above oversight and legal recourse. Comment by lefty The thing that gets me is that they say government infringes on the freemarket and the first thing they do is look towards it for bailouts and corporate welfare and to the lobbysists for regualtion in their favor. What a bunch of hypocrites!! They say the first amendment doesn't apply to them because they are a private business, and well, if that is so, then they should not be able to raise money for campaigns, as they are not humans, but a corporation. There is no difference anymore. They are ALL above oversight and legal recourse.

Comment by lefty

The thing that gets me is that they say government infringes on the freemarket and the first thing they do is look towards it for bailouts and corporate welfare and to the lobbysists for regualtion in their favor.

What a bunch of hypocrites!! They say the first amendment doesn’t apply to them because they are a private business, and well, if that is so, then they should not be able to raise money for campaigns, as they are not humans, but a corporation.

]]> By: Xisithrus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114741 Xisithrus Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:29:03 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114741 Hey, I though the Hayekian Loonatives were against the government getting involved in economic and business interests? Hey, I though the Hayekian Loonatives were against the government getting involved in economic and business interests?

]]> By: PatrioticLiberalChristian http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114724 PatrioticLiberalChristian Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:24:15 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114724 Congress could/should break the RESTORE bill into small components, giving each a clever progressive name, and pass each one to send to Bush. The Democrats could justify this by stating they recognize that the President is Constitutionally prohibited from having a line-item veto but they want Bush to have his say on all the details. Further, one of the bills must specifically PROHIBIT immunity to the telecommunication companies. Make Bush have to sweat each vote and explain himself. Make the telecoms sweat and request an immunity-information exchange. Congress could/should break the RESTORE bill into small components, giving each a clever progressive name, and pass each one to send to Bush. The Democrats could justify this by stating they recognize that the President is Constitutionally prohibited from having a line-item veto but they want Bush to have his say on all the details. Further, one of the bills must specifically PROHIBIT immunity to the telecommunication companies. Make Bush have to sweat each vote and explain himself. Make the telecoms sweat and request an immunity-information exchange.

]]> By: DigDug http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114704 DigDug Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:16:42 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114704 <em>Government = Corporations = Media There is no difference anymore. They are ALL above oversight and legal recourse. Comment by lefty </em> I agree. Voters sadly have very little power these days. Government = Corporations = Media

There is no difference anymore. They are ALL above oversight and legal recourse.

Comment by lefty

I agree. Voters sadly have very little power these days.

]]> By: DigDug http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114694 DigDug Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:14:14 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114694 <em>Let’s review: if you’re in the military and you carry out illegal orders to torture and degrade Iraqi prisoners at Abu Garabe prison, you end up in prison. Check. If you’re a large corporation and you carry out illegal orders to help the government illegally eavesdrop on Americans, you get immunity. Check. That’s what happens when corporations have more political power than citizens. Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper</em> I think this is the most true succinct description of the broken democracy that we live in that I've read here. This is the road that the Republicans would drive us down. Let’s review: if you’re in the military and you carry out illegal orders to torture and degrade Iraqi prisoners at Abu Garabe prison, you end up in prison. Check.

If you’re a large corporation and you carry out illegal orders to help the government illegally eavesdrop on Americans, you get immunity. Check.

That’s what happens when corporations have more political power than citizens.

Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper

I think this is the most true succinct description of the broken democracy that we live in that I’ve read here.

This is the road that the Republicans would drive us down.

]]> By: Augustus http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114687 Augustus Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:12:16 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114687 The way it normally works, prosecutors offer immunity to lower functionaries in exchange for testimony to help prosecute higher-ups. Congress should not give the telecoms immunity unless and until they cooperate fully with investigations into the domestic wiretapping. I don't think the multi-millionaire CEOs of these companies will be willing to go to jail to cover up for this president (they give him money to do their bidding, not the other way around). Hopefully the Democrats will be smart enough not to give away immunity for nothing. But I wouldn't count on it. The way it normally works, prosecutors offer immunity to lower functionaries in exchange for testimony to help prosecute higher-ups.

Congress should not give the telecoms immunity unless and until they cooperate fully with investigations into the domestic wiretapping. I don’t think the multi-millionaire CEOs of these companies will be willing to go to jail to cover up for this president (they give him money to do their bidding, not the other way around).

Hopefully the Democrats will be smart enough not to give away immunity for nothing. But I wouldn’t count on it.

]]> By: Coffins Draped with a Flag http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114679 Coffins Draped with a Flag Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:09:03 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114679 <em>What happens if Congress doesn’t pass this revised FISA bill? Won’t the bill passed in August expire 6 months from August (February 2008). What will happen? Comment by Coffins Draped with a Flag — October 10, 2007 @ 1:29 pm The Constitution will go back into effect, at least until Congress passes the next boneheaded anti-rights legislation. Comment by toasterhead</em> Phew.... thanks. That makes me feel better, for a while anyway. What happens if Congress doesn’t pass this revised FISA bill? Won’t the bill passed in August expire 6 months from August (February 2008). What will happen?

Comment by Coffins Draped with a Flag — October 10, 2007 @ 1:29 pm

The Constitution will go back into effect, at least until Congress passes the next boneheaded anti-rights legislation.

Comment by toasterhead

Phew…. thanks. That makes me feel better, for a while anyway.

]]> By: lefty http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114666 lefty Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:03:44 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114666 Government = Corporations = Media There is no difference anymore. They are ALL above oversight and legal recourse. Government = Corporations = Media

There is no difference anymore. They are ALL above oversight and legal recourse.

]]> By: Coffins Draped with a Flag http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114659 Coffins Draped with a Flag Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:01:34 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114659 This security protection, would that include allowing Osama bin Lauden to escape from Tora Bora and warning Al Qeada that we are watching their websites? And by the way, where is Osama bin Lauden? This security protection, would that include allowing Osama bin Lauden to escape from Tora Bora and warning Al Qeada that we are watching their websites? And by the way, where is Osama bin Lauden?

]]> By: Leftside Annie http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114654 Leftside Annie Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:59:14 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114654 Eh. Everyone knows that the Constitution is just a god-damned piece of paper. Pass the matches. /sarc off Eh. Everyone knows that the Constitution is just a god-damned piece of paper.

Pass the matches.

/sarc off

]]> By: RUCerious http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114646 RUCerious Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:55:35 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114646 Four letter word... I like it. Four letter word…

I like it.

]]> By: gulfwargrunt http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114642 gulfwargrunt Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:52:51 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114642 Shouldn't Bush be more worried about THIS (from the AP today): RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- The Saudi Arabian government will temporarily release 55 prisoners recently transferred from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and will give each of them about $2,600 to celebrate the upcoming Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr, a newspaper reported Saturday. Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abdul Aziz granted the temporary releases from detention centers in Saudi Arabia so the prisoners could spend time with their families during the holiday in mid-October, the Okaz newspaper reported. They will return to police custody after the holiday and will be referred to Saudi courts at end of this month for upcoming trials, the paper said. Shouldn’t Bush be more worried about THIS (from the AP today):

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — The Saudi Arabian government will temporarily release 55 prisoners recently transferred from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and will give each of them about $2,600 to celebrate the upcoming Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr, a newspaper reported Saturday.

Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abdul Aziz granted the temporary releases from detention centers in Saudi Arabia so the prisoners could spend time with their families during the holiday in mid-October, the Okaz newspaper reported.

They will return to police custody after the holiday and will be referred to Saudi courts at end of this month for upcoming trials, the paper said.

]]> By: techsong http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114631 techsong Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:42:21 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114631 Bush again sides with big business. This just another one of countless times he has done this. Just protecting he buddies and screw everyone else. The man really donesn't work for us. He works for his biggest campaign contributers. AT&T contributed $212,000 to his campaign in 2004. http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00008072&cycle=2004 Bush again sides with big business. This just another one of countless times he has done this. Just protecting he buddies and screw everyone else. The man really donesn’t work for us. He works for his biggest campaign contributers. AT&T contributed $212,000 to his campaign in 2004.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00008072&cycle=2004

]]> By: Bush is a four letter word http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-4114627 Bush is a four letter word Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:37:55 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/10/10/bush-pushes-for-telco-immunity/#comment-4114627 Fine. Give him the version he wants, with a piece of legislation tacked on that brings the troops home in 30 days. Repeat this method for *everything* until the loser is out of office. Fine. Give him the version he wants, with a piece of legislation tacked on that brings the troops home in 30 days.

Repeat this method for *everything* until the loser is out of office.

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