General Advocating For ‘Victory Declaration’ Over AQI Also Declared ‘Major Combat Over’ In 2003
General Advocating For ‘Victory Declaration’ Over AQI Also Declared ‘Major Combat Over’ In 2003
Today’s Washington Post reports that some military generals are advocating a “declaration of victory” over al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI). A military intelligence official tells the Post that Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal is the leading voice in calling for such a declaration:
Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, head of the Joint Special Operations Command’s operations in Iraq, is the chief promoter of a victory declaration and believes that AQI has been all but eliminated, the military intelligence official said. But Adm. William J. Fallon, the chief of U.S. Central Command, which oversees Iraq and the rest of the Middle East, is urging restraint, the official said.
McChrystal happens to also be one of the military generals who also fiercely advocated the declaration of “Mission Accomplished.” In April 2003, McChrystal assessed that “major combat” was over in Iraq:
“I would anticipate that the major combat engagements are over,” Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal told reporters at a Pentagon briefing. He said U.S. forces are moving into a phase of “smaller, albeit sharper fights.”
Just two weeks after McChrystal’s comments, President Bush strutted aboard the U.S.S. Lincoln and — beneath the “Mission Accomplished” banner — declared, “Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.”
The Congressional Research Service recently warned U.S. commanders have increasingly “seemed to equate AQ-I with the insurgency, even though most of the daily attacks are carried out by Iraqi Sunni insurgents.” Gen. James Jones, the author of detailed report on Iraqi security forces, said that 98 percent or more of the fighting is an internal civil conflict among Iraqis. All of which suggests that the basis for this declaration of “mission accomplished” is just as misplaced as the last one.
UPDATE: Greg Sargent notes that the Pentagon recommended McChrystal be “held accountable” for “misleading behavior” as a central player in Pat Tillman affair.
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GREAT! Bring them home NOW motherfu*kers.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:08 pmSo, next week, when the press is reporting 5 troop deaths on this day, and 7 troop deaths on that day, and a big car bomb on the other day, who will they claim is doing all of this? I haven’t seen a big drop in troop casualties, so if AQI were not killing all of our troops, who is the new enemy?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:11 pmThe problem is that AQ was never really there - part of Bush’s smoke & mirrors campaign.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:11 pmChris L: It’s always been a “fictitious enemy” all along so nothing’s changed at all.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:12 pmHow many of our troops were killed by our own hired mercenaries, aka Blackwater??? Now that’s the real question here.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:12 pmIt’s always been a “civil war” in Iraq from the outset. The only reason Bush had to label the enemy as AQ has to do with the war crimes which he’ll be held accountable for.
Besides, Bush quoted publicly that “the moment it appeared that our military was in harm’s way in a civil war, they’d immediately be brought home”….ergo….the non labeling of what’s going on over there (and has been ongoing) as a Civil War.
The face of the boogeyman became AQ over there - just like the boogeyman of 911 became OBL. Same fiction writer; same bogus info.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:15 pmIsn’t that a B*tch. This guy obvious makes it up as he goes along. He must be been reading about the person who uttered those famous words, “We have met the enemy, and he is us”. Actually it goes, “We have me the enemy, and he is ours”. It also reminds me of the Marines General during the Korean War, who said while completely surrounded, “WE FINALLY GOT THEM WHERE WE WANT THEM”. But this damn the torpedoes full speed ahead attitude comes with consequences, and apparently this General forgot that part. By the way, I’m a veteran, so I am allowed to criticise our soldiers. Not that anyone else it’s allowed, but you know how the right likes to accused people of treason for asking questions.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:15 pmThe one thing we failed to realize is that Bush may be getting awards for the best “fiction writer” of the decade.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:15 pmHas Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal talked to Gen. Sanchez lately?
Stan, before you get out the pom poms again, think about claiming victory over something based in reality; like the ‘War on Words’ your White House declared and, apparently, winning.
You know what real victory is, General?… Gore winning the Nobel Prize!
October 15th, 2007 at 12:16 pmComrades, we are always ahead of schedule on Dear Leader’s glorious five-year plan!
October 15th, 2007 at 12:17 pmIf what Maj. Stanley says is so true, then what the hell are we still doing over there? Grabbing the oil?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:17 pmMore BS from the General Staff. Is there an entire branch of the military dedicated to BS?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:17 pmWell, he was correct in April 2003. The major combat operations against Saddam’s army were indeed over and the U.S. had emerged victorious.
Let us hope he is again correct when he says that we are close to destroying Al Qaeda in Iraq. I agree with Admiral Fallon and Gen. Petraeus (nice to see ThinkProgress agreeing with Petraeus for once) that we need to be careful about declaring victory against AQI too soon, but the news from Iraq is undeniably good of late. The surge is working. The key is to keep the pressure on. Once AQI is destroyed as a force in Iraq, our troops can be withdrawn.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:17 pmzimzone: Indeed, the real victory is that Al Gore won the Nobel Prize and deservedly so! In at least this one instance, Truth prevailed.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:18 pmI’m all for the “Victory Declaration”. That means we can bring the troops home, right?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:18 pmExley: AHAHAHA! Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt and Self-delusion is merely a game in personal mental masturbation. Glad you’re so convinced. You probably are in around a 10% minority. HAHAHA!
October 15th, 2007 at 12:19 pmOnce AQI is destroyed as a force in Iraq, our troops can be withdrawn. -Exley
Exley, need we remind you AGAIN that AQ wasn’t in Iraq when we invaded? And that AQI exists BECAUSE of our invasion?
What else have you swallowed as truth? Just say’n…
October 15th, 2007 at 12:20 pmThis is just another General who sees that he will also be held for “war crimes” coming forward. I suspect they all will in due time when they realize that their heads are also in the noose.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:20 pmhttp://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/39986/?pc=73214
October 15th, 2007 at 12:21 pmThose damnable minor combat operations that kill our troops are a real nuisance, aren’t they Exley?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:21 pmZimzone: Exley lives out there in the ozone so don’t bother attempting to bring him to Truth. He’s sleazed in a miasma of deceit.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:21 pmExley’s a one trick pony. Nothing relevant to add to any conversation so just ignore him and he’ll sleaze himself away into his dark corner.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:22 pmIn 2003, this same delusional moron declared that “major combat was over”. Where the hell was he doing this intelligent assessment?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:23 pmamen ralph the wonder llama.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:24 pmIndeed, Ralph and Bnye…Victory against AQI is the surest and most effective way to bring our troops home.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:26 pmConventional wisdom: Declare victory and leave.
Conservative Wisdom: Declare victory and stay.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:26 pmOnce AQI is destroyed as a force in Iraq, our troops can be withdrawn.
Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
did you read what the general said? we are victorious so bring the troops home.
eh?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:27 pmwe aren’t leaving but the iraqis are. check out this article from the contra costa times (by way of c&l)
http://crooksandliars.com/
October 15th, 2007 at 12:31 pmThese guys are so desperate to show some kind of progress where there is none that they will make any claim no matter how factually incorrect it may be. So let him make the claim and watch the parrots in the MSM follow right along. They’ll need to come up with another boogeyman for an excuse to stay in Iraq though. Remember that Bush and Petraeus say that AQI is the greatest threat to the US. Who will they blame now?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:33 pmAnd he was incorrect how?
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 15, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
start with the cost in lives and money. then go on to failed policy goals. think about it.
eh?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:33 pmIf the good general had said,
smaller, albeit sharper fights that will go on for oh, about five to twenty five years…
Then maybe he’d have some cred.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:34 pmJust read an excellent article by Jim Holt which clearly indicates why BushCo, or for that matter the future Dem prez, have NO INTENTION of leaving Iraq for at least 30 years. Check out http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n20/print/holt01_.html
In fact, as much as most folks would like to see the US out, the US and most of the West are COUNTING on staying there!! Check it out………
October 15th, 2007 at 12:35 pmJoe Cantwell,
According to the article, while some generals believe we have fully defeated AQI, other military and intelligence officials are somewhat more cautious, despite our recent and undeniable successes.
“There is widespread agreement that AQI has suffered major blows over the past three months. Among the indicators cited is a sharp drop in suicide bombings, the group’s signature attack, from more than 60 in January to around 30 a month since July. Captures and interrogations of AQI leaders over the summer had what a senior military intelligence official called a “cascade effect,” leading to other killings and captures. The flow of foreign fighters through Syria into Iraq has also diminished, although officials are unsure of the reason and are concerned that the broader al-Qaeda network may be diverting new recruits to Afghanistan and elsewhere.
The deployment of more U.S. and Iraqi forces into AQI strongholds in Anbar province and the Baghdad area, as well as the recruitment of Sunni tribal fighters to combat AQI operatives in those locations, has helped to deprive the militants of a secure base of operations, U.S. military officials said…But Adm. William J. Fallon, the chief of U.S. Central Command, which oversees Iraq and the rest of the Middle East, is urging restraint.”
It is undeniable that we are making tremendous military progress against Al Qaeda in Iraq. It is imperative that progress is not lost by a premature declaration of victory. Keep up the pressure and AQI will be destroyed as a force in Iraq and our troops will be able to leave.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:36 pmis the chief promoter of a victory declaration and believes that AQI has been all but eliminated
They’ll never do this. Because as the fighting continues after the declaration, they’ll have to admit that we’re actually fighting Iraqis. Either that or admit they were wrong…
I read that something like only 10% of our engagements are against AQI.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:37 pmOf course they have defeated AQI, considering that AQI is a figment of their imaginations in the first place. They decided to start calling insurgents AQI so that the sheeple would think that there was a good reason for us to be in Iraq. But, think about it. How in hell would our military know if someone they killed was AQI? Do they wear buttons or armbands? This whole AQI think has been a crock since the beginning.
My thought is that they are trying to fine some face saving way of leaving Iraq now that they know they have run out of excuses for being there. Considering the fact that Iraq has NO functioning government and their Parliament has declared they are not interested in reconciliation, there is no longer any legitimate reason for us to be there. I also suspect that the Iraqi Parliament is getting ready to ask us to leave and once that happens, unless we want to tell the world the truth, that we intend to occupy Iraq forever to get our hands on their oil, we will no longer have a valid reason for being there.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:42 pmAQI was never AQ, it was Iraqi’s calling themselves AQI for the name recognition, and most likely hoping for support from AQ Saudia Arabia. These were basicly just really pissed off Iraqi’s. The Iraqi people though did not think much of them and turned against them, which is just another segment of this civil war.
GW666 and Darth Dick need AQ to keep the fear and the war going, they will not declare that it is indeed a civil war.
Hopefully AQI is done for, just one more headache that our troops that needs to end.
But face it people, it is too late, we will never be leaving Iraq, the OIL is too important to our ecomony because we ignored the fact that we are dependent on imported OIL for too long.
When the OIL runs out and the OIL wars of this century have killed most of humanity there will wish they had done something about it, but it will be too late.
Buck Fush
October 15th, 2007 at 12:44 pmComment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
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is your real name john yoo? what part of “victory declaration” don’t you understand? bring ‘em home.
eh?
October 15th, 2007 at 12:44 pmIt is undeniable that we are making tremendous military progress against Al Qaeda in Iraq. It is imperative that progress is not lost by a premature declaration of victory. Keep up the pressure and AQI will be destroyed as a force in Iraq and our troops will be able to leave.
Comment by Exley
If AQI actually exist in Iraq, our government has estimated that they represent 5% of the fighters. So, are you saying that if we defeat 5% of the fighters in Iraq we can leave? Works for me whatever they want to do to justify leaving.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:45 pmIn fact, as much as most folks would like to see the US out, the US and most of the West are COUNTING on staying there!! Check it out………
Comment by Dandy
Since the whole invasion was about the oil anyway, we will be there until the oil runs out or we are run out of Iraq - probably into Iran where, strangely enough, there is oil too. Hmmm, just a coincidence, I suppose.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:47 pmAnd he was incorrect how?
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 15, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
It seems the body count between the first statement in 2003 and this one now would highlight how he was incorrect to any rational thinking person.
This also explains why you and other right wing fools think he was correct.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:52 pmRational thinking is not your forte.
I know this is a long shot, but just suppose that some generals got together and starting talking about how to end this crazy war, and came up with the nutty idea of telling Bush that we’ve won.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:53 pmYet more good news out of Iraq:
Shiite Leader Makes Reconciliatory Gesture, Visits Sunni Anbar Province
Sunday , October 14, 2007
Associated Press
In a major reconciliatory gesture, a leader from Iraq’s largest Shiite party paid a rare visit Sunday to the Sunni Anbar province, where he delivered a message of unity to tribal sheiks who have staged a U.S.-backed revolt against Al Qaeda militants in their region.
The visit by Ammar al-Hakim, son and heir apparent of Iraq’s top Shiite politician, provided the latest evidence that key Iraqi politicians may be working toward national reconciliation independently from Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s government, which has faced criticism for doing little to iron out differences between the country’s Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:00 pmSo we defeated an enemy who was not there and never was there in Iraq under Saddam,but later evolved as a result of us starting this war of 2003.
So we are declaring some kind of a victory on an enemy we indirectly brought and created in Iraq .
We heard also before how ‘Taliban were on the run’ in 2001,and how claims were made that ‘we smoked them out’ ….!!
But this claim of eliminating Al-Qaeda can backfire, if the war continues,then whom are we fighting in Iraq?.
But my feeling is that there is a switch now to another enemy by blaming now eveything on Iranians instead,which is the Neocons plan and the last resolution passed by the Senate and Congress is talking about the new enemy…Iran,instead, who is killing our soldiers.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:01 pmThe Americans are now prepared mentally to believe that the trouble from now on in Iraq is coming from Iran..and not Al-Qaeda.
Good grief. I didn’t think they let delusional drug addicts be generals.
I appear to be seriously wrong. My bad.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:04 pmYet more good news out of Iraq: Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
There’s ALWAYS good news coming out of Iraq from the GOP propaganda machine, unfortunately it’s rarely followed up by good progress on anything!
You windbags always spew some polyana good news, as you continue to murder our soldiers with your ill conceived and poorly executed ‘adventure’.
What manly excuse to you have again for not being in Iraq? Oh wait, you don’t have one, because you aren’t!
October 15th, 2007 at 1:04 pmThe Americans are now prepared mentally to believe that the trouble from now on in Iraq is coming from Iran..and not Al-Qaeda.
Comment by tarazan
I think you are probably right. It’s the classic “bait and switch”. AQI wasn’t selling well to the public so we will eliminate them and now blame everything on Iran. I’m fairly sure that isn’t going to sell well either. It appears the American public has finally awakened from their deep sleep and isn’t buying the bull sh*t coming out of the Bush Crime Family any more.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:05 pmMore bad news for Exley, the administration points out the failure that is Iraq.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:07 pmExley, you really do sound like a character right out of 1984. Chocolate rations up again this month or what? (From 30 to 25!)
October 15th, 2007 at 1:18 pmI think you are probably right. It’s the classic “bait and switchâ€. AQI wasn’t selling well to the public so we will eliminate them and now blame everything on Iran.
Comment by bilbobaggins
Yep. Good salepeople always have their sights on the next customer. Even before their present customer is taken care of they need to feed the machine and get the next sale. Now we are moving from Iraq to Iran, right on schedule. Just in time for the Christmas rush to war. I bet Jesus would be proud - NOT!
October 15th, 2007 at 1:21 pmBeing a General in the US military isn’t automatically synonymous with credibility or honor. The rank, standing on it’s own merits, does not endow respectability. The old-school Generals are gone. The new guys are political functionaries, playing second-fiddle to the likes of Blackwater.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:21 pmWe’re winning the hearts and minds of the Iraq people
October 15th, 2007 at 1:25 pmMission Accomplished 2003 stay the course
2007 Victory in Iraq. Will somebody tell Al Qaeda this. If any American, Law Maker, Media, Journalist or foreign Leaders believes this propaganda then they are as dumb as George W. Bush. Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal will be promoted to full star General and replace General Petraeus who now is known to have lied under oath for the White House.
“If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms–never–never–never”.
Lord Chatham To Parliament 1777
October 15th, 2007 at 1:30 pmGeorge is bringing MCCrystal back for another go at it. How about another “fool me twice” joke?
October 15th, 2007 at 1:53 pmAnother general betrayus?
October 15th, 2007 at 1:54 pmDeclare victory and leave. I’ve been advocating that course since we began this foreign policy debacle.
We created al queda in Iraq; we can uncreate them just as easily, since they never really existed, beyond 2 to 5 % of the insurgency.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:03 pmComment by Exley
I really wish you were being namejacked because those posts are so sad.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:06 pmAnd he was incorrect how?
Comment by O. Bigfoot
Go to Iraq and you will find out.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:07 pmAs many times we’ve turned the corner and have seen improvements in Iraq, I don’t know whether to be dizzy from spinning or if I should take my next vacation in the new Garden of Eden Resort in beautiful downtown Baghdad.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:32 pmActually, Juan, my posts are pretty much straight-forward quotes from The Washington Post and The Associated Press….
You should read them again….slowly.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:51 pmActually, Juan, my posts are pretty much straight-forward quotes from The Washington Post and The Associated Press….
You should read them again….slowly.
Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
Actually you can’t read, so perhaps you should read this blog more slowly before you post your embarrassing nonsense!
October 15th, 2007 at 2:55 pmPoor Exley doesn’t realize that the Anbar Arabs don’t want reconciliation or democracy, they want a caliphate. Yeah, the GOP sure can pick its allies! Here comes Saddam 2.0, thanks to loons like Exley, the exlax laden sh!t spewer!
October 15th, 2007 at 2:56 pmPoor RHF…All this good news coming out of Iraq — our military successes against Al Qaeda — the historic meeting between Sunni and Shiite leaders — really has RHF depressed….Sad.
Those of us who love this country and support our troops, however, are pleased by this good news and hope it continues.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:10 pmPoor RHF…All this good news coming out of Iraq — our military successes against Al Qaeda — the historic meeting between Sunni and Shiite leaders — really has RHF depressed….Sad. Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
Same old smear. Anyone points out your lies, and what do you do, say that they just can’t handle the ‘good news’. Yeah, wingnut, we’ve been hearing this ‘good news’ for how many years now? And each time we look at it under a microscope we find out it was all a lie. Sane people develop skepticism in that situation - then there’s you!
Those of us who love this country and support our troops, however, are pleased by this good news and hope it continues.
Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
Well you aren’t sane, and you don’t support the troops, you support the GOP abuse of the troops, and the GOP lies that excuse that abuse, and the GOP mismanagement that’s undermined the readiness of those troops. You only ‘want’ that good news to justify and rationalize why you’re so willing to abuse those troops. Your ‘hope’ is all you have, because reality says your hope is misplaced in the hands of incompetence! Then again, you’ve never displayed any personal competence yourself, so that explains why you are so easily lied to, and pulled about the barnyard like the animal that you are…
October 15th, 2007 at 3:18 pmYou mean this kind of ‘good news’, exlax?
NEWSWEEK has learned that a separate internal report being prepared by a Pentagon working group will “differ substantially†from Petraeus’s recommendations, according to an official who is privy to the ongoing discussions but would speak about them only on condition of anonymity. An early version of the report, which is currently being drafted and is expected to be completed by the beginning of next year, will “recommend a very rapid reduction in American forces: as much as two-thirds of the existing force very quickly, while keeping the remainder there.â€
Or maybe you were referring to the news that the British discovered withdrawing their troops from Basra decreased violence, while the surge increased it? Could that be the good news?
Or were you referring to the distorted numbers presented by Betrayus, that directly conflicted with the methodology he personally used to use? That’s what we ‘adults’ call a lie, exlax. You however, call it ‘good news’, because you can’t handle the truth. Especially the inconvenient ones! Poor little wingnuts!
October 15th, 2007 at 3:21 pmYou should read them again….slowly.
Comment by Exley
It will be a slow sadness, then.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:48 pmPoor little wingnuts!
Comment by republicans hate facts
I think Exely´s common sense is drunk-sleeping in a Maori bar, down in New Zeland.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:50 pm“It will be a slow sadness, then.”
It saddens you to learn that the U.S. is defeating the radical Islamic terrorist organization Al Qaeda in Iraq?
It saddens you to read an AP article reporting a reconciliation meeting between Shiite and Sunni leaders?
That’s just bizarre, Juan. Your desire to see continued suffering and war in Iraq is baffling and troubling.
October 15th, 2007 at 5:13 pmIt saddens you to learn that the U.S. is defeating the radical Islamic terrorist organization Al Qaeda in Iraq? Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
It saddens you to learn that the administration’s presence in Iraq, is supporting Al Qaeda wants? For us to be in Iraq, and both the Pentagon say that our presence there is fueling terrorism, not eradicating it?
No, because you LIKE all of the failure, it makes you feel less of one personally!
You don’t really care about ‘winning’, you are more concerned with not admitting your ‘failures’. Why are you so insecure? Did your dad beat you, or did he just deprive you of the ‘love’ and ‘respect’ you needed as a boy?
It saddens you to read an AP article reporting a reconciliation meeting between Shiite and Sunni leaders? Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
It saddens you that our presence in Iraq destroys their chance to truly reconcile!
That’s just bizarre, Juan. Your desire to see continued suffering and war in Iraq is baffling and troubling.
Comment by Exley — October 15, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
That’s just bizarre, Exley. Your desire to see continued suffering and war, and increased recruiting for terrorists in Iraq is baffling and troubling! Yet when you consider the 911 mastermind (Ali Muhammad), the same man that was behind the first WTC attacks and the embassy bombings was a CIA agent and hardcore GOP boy - it all makes sense!
It’s a good thing that most jews aren’t like you Exlax, because you give Jews a bad name!
hateful, smearing piece of s~!@
October 15th, 2007 at 7:04 pm‘It’s a good thing that most jews aren’t like you Exlax, because you give Jews a bad name!
hateful, smearing piece of s~!@
Comment by republicans hate facts — October 15, 2007 @ 7:04 pm’
RHF’s paranoid, anti-Semtic rantings must be a true embarassment to the reasonable ‘progressibes’ who frequent this site. This is not the only thread in which RHF has spewed his prejudice. Sad, really.
October 15th, 2007 at 11:08 pmYou never answered my questions under today’s ThinkFast about how you think it’s possible to identify an Iraqi insurgent from a member of al Qaeda. I also pointed out that the numbers of deaths, and the way they are counted, have been questioned.
Now I find this, via crooks and liars:
An Iraqi youth, Exley. Not a member of al Qaeda. Or was he? How do you tell? How do you stop things like this? Do you round up all the parents in Iraq and order them to stop telling their kids to die for their country? Do you order the parents to stop using their kids as human bombs?
And this:
So who are you going to believe, Exley? The government, who has for reasons unknown under-reported the number of deaths on that date, likely so that they can claim victory in reducing the number of casualties, or are you going to believe a member of the squad if he tells you that 10 people were killed in his group?
October 15th, 2007 at 11:53 pmsome of us are more concerned with ourselves being right then the situation improving, some for ego,some for power, none for good reasons, the situation over there is awful,our leadership has failed to explain themselves or succeed in doing anything of real note, but one thing we should all agree on is the bad guys love to see us fight from within, this diaologe of the president and his administration being war criminals Or left wingers who want real peace are unpattriotic needs to be taken out back behind the barn and beaten till its gone. poeple progress will only come thru both sides working together so the truth becomes impossible to bake into a partisan cake
October 16th, 2007 at 12:26 amGreat. All the US troops can be home by the end of this month. Anybody want to take odds on that?
October 16th, 2007 at 9:02 amas queen anne said to her generals upon reporting another battle won in the war of spanish succession: how many more victories can we afford?
we are fighting small groups with home-made weapons and improvised explosive devices: of course we will be victorious again and again militarily.
but the relevance of a military victory is over. iraqis don’t have rudimentary economic, health, and schooling infrastructure. most are unemployed. and there are at least three groups in the country who have no interest in working together. it is a political solution that is necessary not a military one.
pull back into anbar province to protect kuwait; let iran have the south because they do now anyway (and we all know that is was the current administration and military generals that gave it to them).
and send the rest of the troops home. now.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:30 amWait a minute there balkinization.
Anbar province does NOT border Kuwait. And insurgents and militias are not using sticks and stones for weapons. The exposive devices are only sort of “homemade” and the explosive component in explosive device certainly isn’t homemade and neither are their grenade launchers, AK47s, mortars or 50 calibur rifles. We graciously left numerous Iraqi arms depots unprotected after the invasion allowing Iraqis to help themselves and then moved things along even more by telling armed and trained Iraqi soldiers that they no longer had a paycheck coming in.
They can’t beat us toe to toe, as Cheney whined, but they know that and therefore do not fight us toe to toe unless they’re caught unaware.
It’s more like at least six groups who are at odds either with one another or in internicine struggles amongst themselves and against us when convenient. There are also bands of just plain old criminals running about because the police are ineffective.
So far as abandoning southern Iraq to Iran is concerned we won’t really have a say because competing Shiite militias will and are battling for the prize. At least one group is pro-Iranian and the other group is NOT pro-Iranian.
Though much of the infrastructure in Iraq is in ruins they still operate some schools and, unlike us, have free medical care which would be fine except many health professionals have fled the country in fear for their lives. The principle infrastructure problem is the lack of electricity and potable water combined with an almost complete lack of other basic public services.
There is NO political solution and no chance of US military victory. Iraq was Pandora’s Box and we committed the unforegivable act of opening that box.
Our military presence is unwanted and becomes more tenuous as time goes on and it would be far better if we left sooner rather than later.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:37 pm