DLC’s Ford And From Echo O’Hanlon And Bush, Argue For A Long-Term ‘Military Presence’ In Iraq
DLC’s Ford And From Echo O’Hanlon And Bush, Argue For A Long-Term ‘Military Presence’ In Iraq
At Ideas Primary today, former Rep. Harold Ford Jr. (D-TN) and Democratic Leadership Council founder Al From chastise Democrats and war critics for pushing for “immediate withdrawal” from Iraq, arguing instead for a “bipartisan agreement” to keep a “military presence in Iraq for the foreseeable future to guard our strategic interests in the region”:
Republicans are holding out for an illusory victory. Democrat rightly want to force a new direction, but they’re not going to get it if the only option they offer is immediate withdrawal. It’s clear the votes for immediate withdrawal are not there, and the resulting impasse will empower President Bush to maintain his same failed policy through the rest of his administration. [...]
The key to a new course is to forge a bipartisan agreement in support of a small sustainable military presence in Iraq for the foreseeable future to guard our strategic interests in the region.
Though Ford and From are cloaking their argument in the language of “reducing and re-deploying our troops,” their policy prescriptions echo the positions of liberal hawks like Brookings’ Michael O’Hanlon and would set the stage for a long-term presence in Iraq for the U.S. military.
Additionally, their proposal flies in the face of public opinion. In a recent poll done for Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA), “70 percent of registered voters” said “President Bush’s $200 billion Iraq war supplemental spending request should be rejected or conditioned on redeployment.” A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S. troops to withdraw as well.
In fact, Ford and From’s advice for congressional war critics sounds eerily familiar, almost like the advice President Bush says he is trying to give his potential successors: stay longer.
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former Rep. Harold Ford Jr. (D-TN) and Democratic Leadership Counsel founder Al From chastise Democrats and war critics for pushing for “immediate withdrawal†from Iraq,
Life is so much easier when you can just erect straw men and kick them, isn’t it? It would be such a bother to actually have to address real positions held by real people. ‘Cause real people can kick back.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:10 pmAre you sure he didn’t change his name from Edsel? He seems to have as much credibility.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:13 pmI guess Harold sees a real future for himself at Faux News. I think he may be right.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:13 pmsomeone sing that true colors song….dlc are republicans.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:14 pmJesus H. Christ. DINOs!!
October 18th, 2007 at 3:15 pmBeing from Wisconsin and a Packer’s fan, I can tell you exactly how much armchair quarterbacking has done to actually produce victory…
NONE
October 18th, 2007 at 3:17 pmthe Democratic Losers Council needs a good kick in the crotch.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:20 pmto keep a “military presence in Iraq for the foreseeable future to guard our strategic interests in the regionâ€
It’s time we kick the DLC to the curb. The only “strategic interests” we have in the region is oil that belongs to someone other than us. This is why I am afraid of what will happen if Hillary wins. She’s a DLC Democrat through and through. God I wish we could find a way to get Kucinich some publicity. He is the only one of the candidates (other than maybe Dodd) who has the right of it. He says it’s not our oil and we have no right to try to take it. He says we need to bring our military home and stop meddling in affairs that are none of our business. And I totally agree with him.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:22 pmWhy is there absolutely no room for anything other than extreme opinion in politics anymore? I am a textbook Bush hater, but we can’t just pull out of there like everyone on here supports. Have you all forgotten that we provoked and armed a civil war? We can’t just walk away from that and let them just kill each other. You think our reputation on the Arab Street is bad now, just wait.
Just look at what is about to happen to the Kurds when Turkey attacks them. If we let Iraq unravel, it’ll just turn into a proxy war between Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey. GIVE UP THE PULL OUT NOW TALK. It sucks that we’re in this position – I certainly never supported the war – but now that we’ve broken it, we’ve bought it. Hang George W. Bush on the White House lawn, but don’t sentence innocent people to die like rats to prove that we were right.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:22 pmstrategic interest is spelled Opportunity for Iraqi Liberation, or O I L for short.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:23 pmThese guys need to disband, they are out of tune and just don’t get it. You want to keep the middle east in uproar, then by all means keep some troops there but that place will never settle down until we leave, completely. It will not settle down until we have electric cars.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:24 pmNever mind the fact that we have absolutely NO right to be there in the 1st place.
This is an ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, and UNJUSTIFIED war of aggression & occupation. WAR CRIMES. Anyone who condones it is aiding and abetting war criminals.
As this is an illegal war of aggression, the Iraqis have EVERY RIGHT to resist, and fight to liberate their country.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:25 pmThe rising tide of GOP-lite – all the war-mongering, corruption and condescension with none of the concern for their pathetic “base” (meaning us).
Between this and their amnesty to Telecoms I say it’s pretty clear what the “Democrat” Party stands for: Everything the Conservatives do except for gays.
Another loss for us progressives.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:26 pmAs we should all clearly be able to see now, a “D” after someone’s name doesn’t necessarily mean they aren’t also imperalistic and a believer in global dominance.
As Nadar once said, there’s no real difference between the parties when it comes to these broader foreign policy issues. Or being owned by multi-national corporations either.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:27 pmOctober 18th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I agree with your sentiment but it seems they already are dying “like rats” and many reports seem to say that the case will be the same, or even get better for them if we leave. That’s why I support immidiate withdrawl.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:29 pm“Just look at what is about to happen to the Kurds when Turkey attacks them. If we let Iraq unravel, it’ll just turn into a proxy war between Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey.”
What are you saying? That the situation will improve with our continued presence? That’s delusional thinking. What will happen is something we can no longer control, or predict. In that scenario, it’s foolish to maintain a positive outcome is even possible.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:29 pmThe Iraqis are engaged in a war of national liberation. they are the modern equivalent of the French Resistance of World War II.
WE are the aggressors and occupiers like the Nazis of that same war.
They are, in truth, freedom fighters.
The National Liberation Front lives on.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:29 pmfix that god damned country.
And how do we do that, when the overwhelming majority of Iraqis want us the hell out of THEIR country?
October 18th, 2007 at 3:35 pmI don’t think the people give a rip about what anyone in Congress “wants” for this war on either side of the aisle – certainly the mandate of the people in the midterms was an immediate “end” to this war. To further discuss the “when” it should end only belabors the issue and bogs it down in literaray parsing and useless blather.
The people clearly told them they wanted it to “END”…. AND END OF DISCUSSION.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:39 pmWhy is there absolutely no room for anything other than extreme opinion in politics anymore? I am a textbook Bush hater, but we can’t just pull out of there like everyone on here supports. Have you all forgotten that we provoked and armed a civil war? We can’t just walk away from that and let them just kill each other. You think our reputation on the Arab Street is bad now, just wait.
Just look at what is about to happen to the Kurds when Turkey attacks them. If we let Iraq unravel, it’ll just turn into a proxy war between Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey. GIVE UP THE PULL OUT NOW TALK. It sucks that we’re in this position – I certainly never supported the war – but now that we’ve broken it, we’ve bought it. Hang George W. Bush on the White House lawn, but don’t sentence innocent people to die like rats to prove that we were right.
Comment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
First of all, it’s not the first time we’ve provoked civil war and unrest in a country and then walked away. We did it after the 1991 Persian Gulf war when we encouraged the Shites and Kurds to rise up to overthrow Saddam . We did it in Haiti by training and arming “rebels” in the Dominican Republic to overthrow a democratically-elected government there…and kidnap their President. Those are only two examples of MANY.
Our staying in Iraq has NOTHING to do with protecting those poor people that we have DESTROYED by invading and occupying their country in the first place. This is the line that we are being fed, as one more rationale for staying there. And in this civil war, just exactly which SIDE are we going to be on? How do we protect the Shites without damaging the Sunni…and vice versa?
If we REALLY cared about saving lives, wouldn’t we have gone into Dafur a long time ago? The Sudan government is responsible for slaughtering those people. But they also control the oil…so we talk big…and do NOTHING.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:39 pmAnd, the longer Congress dialogues about the “when” to end it, the more of our military gets killed. What don’t they comprehend about the word “NOW”?? Not six months from now, not a year from now, but absolutely right NOW!!
October 18th, 2007 at 3:40 pmcaption:
“Did I just say that?”
October 18th, 2007 at 3:41 pmLet’s face it: Our staying in Iraq has nothing to do with bringing democracy to the people; rather, it’s all about how much oil Bush and his cronies can steal. The longer we occupy the country; the more oil for the blood of our soldiers.
To GWB this may be a “fair and equitable trade-off” (blood for oil) but to the american people it’s repulsive and inhuman.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:41 pmCaption:
October 18th, 2007 at 3:42 pm“Not this s*** again”
Why is there absolutely no room for anything other than extreme opinion in politics anymore? I am a textbook Bush hater, but we can’t just pull out of there like everyone on here supports.
Comment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
Concern Troll Alert!
Um… friend? The point of my first post was that the Right Wing creates these “Withdraw Immediately” straw men as a means to paint everyone who thinks the President’s war strategy is wrong-headed, as “surrender monkeys”. It seems Harold Ford Jr has also bought into this administration framing, even though most Congressional Democrats recognize that an immediate withdrawal is neither practical nor possible.
Here’s the game plan: choose a strength of your opponent (in this case, a position that 70% of the country agrees with), extrapolate it to its most extreme, then make fun of that extreme as if it actually belonged to your opponent.
Fun, init?
October 18th, 2007 at 3:42 pmum – “liberal hawks like Brookings’ Michael O’Hanlon” ???
huh?
October 18th, 2007 at 3:44 pmSo, what we have here is a “renegade congress” – hell bent on muddying the waters of the midterm mandate with a war of words…..how many ways can you say the words “end it now”. This doesn’t mean tomorrow and it doesn’t mean next month. It means immediately taking action to withdraw forces today! (Actually, before the Dems bent over to Bush on the funding, it was months ago for cripes sakes!).
This “renegade congress” pretends it didn’t hear our mandate about ending it now. So they play or are blackmailed into playing Bush’s game of “blood for oil” a little longer, dabbling in heinous and worthless “surges”, and still not facing the reality that 75% of americans and the same number of Iraqis want us the hell out of their country.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:44 pmTo think that we have to save the Iraqis from themselves reminds me of J. Lepetomaine’s famous line…
“They’re such children!”
October 18th, 2007 at 3:45 pmimorgan82: Please speak for yourself. Many of us are numbered in the overwhelming mandate of the midterms which clearly stated that we end the war in Iraq immediately. Don’t flatter your incredible delusions of omniescence by making blanket statements about “everyone here”. You’re outing yourself quite handily as a troll.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:46 pmAs this is an illegal war of aggression, the Iraqis have EVERY RIGHT to resist, and fight to liberate their country.
Comment by Uncle Ho — October 18, 2007 @ 3:25 pm
And they have every right to get Cheney’s Private Murder machine (Blackwater) out as well, but not before a lot of them go up on War Crime CHarges, just like Saddam.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:47 pmSounds good! Strap a gun on the back of these PU$$iE$ and let them fight as long as they want! Good Luck PU$$IE$.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:48 pmI knew this fu*ker (Ford) was trouble when I saw an interview where he showed that he has the ten commandments on the back of his business cards.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:48 pmimorgan82: I would suggest that you begin laying blame where blame belongs. GWB and his cabal have been the catalyst for the destruction of Iraq – infrastructure and people. The instability of an american occupied Iraq has made it a terrorist breeding ground against the US simultaneous to their long-term civil war. This administration will bear the brunt of responsibility for “mideast upheaval” and terrorist breeding. Maybe that will be their famous legacy?
October 18th, 2007 at 3:49 pmUpside & Uncle Ho: You betcha! I’m wondering how many of our own military was killed by Blackwater agents? The Iraqis have every right to pitch us all the hell out of their country and should do so. Wasn’t it in August before the Iraqi parliament break that the vote was overwhelming to facilitate our immediate ejection from “their country”?
October 18th, 2007 at 3:50 pmLet’s see what Ford and From have to gain from the military war profit machine. No doubt they want a long-term occupation for something than an altruistic rationale. It must have to do with filthy greed.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:52 pmIs that Al From Married With Children?
October 18th, 2007 at 3:54 pmFrankly, I can’t believe that, following the mandate of the people at the midterms, we are still dicking around with this war. Removal of troops should be occurring right now.
The longer the dems ignore the mandate of the people, the more self-destruction to their party and their candidate in 08. Since they caved on the funding of the war, many people have jumped ship.
They appear to be spineless sycophants themselves (or blackmailed targets perhaps) right now and since they caved the first time, they’ve become rendered worthless to do anything else right now.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:55 pmMaybe the pollsters need to begin asking what the people think of the Democrats right now. I’d love to see those numbers. They’re sure to rival Bush’s new poll numbers. I know they’ve ranked this congress as even worse than the last one which held the record for being the worst congress in history….
October 18th, 2007 at 3:56 pmWe need a constitutional amendment that EVERY overseas military operation requires a dedicated sustaining tax. End of story;end of neoconomania; end of so-called liberal hawks; end of endless war; end of the road to hell!
October 18th, 2007 at 3:59 pm.
“We broke it, we bought it” works only at the dime store.
There are quite a few options available to us to enable us to get the hell of of Iraq: the United Nations, conducting diplomacy with the rest of the countries on the ME (including Iran) and asking their assistance to end the civil war and/or partitioning the country into 3 separate regions.
We just don’t choose to utilize these options, because Chimpy is paraphrasing Charlton Heston here: You’re going to pry Iraq out of my cold dead hands!!
The continuing occupation of Iraq is nothing more than a naked power grab by an imperialistic PNAC-driven fascist America.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:59 pmUpside & Veritas: War crimes trials for the administration officials responsible for this war and their mercenary goons.
The war crimes tribunal should be conducted at Nuremberg, Germany-in the very same courtroom that tried the surviving Nazis. After all, Bush?Cheney et al, committed the very same crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. The irony.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:00 pm“now that we’ve broken it, we’ve bought it. Hang George W. Bush on the White House lawn, but don’t sentence innocent people to die like rats to prove that we were right.”
Comment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
Who’s the WE that YOU’RE talking about, Lone Ranger? YOU and the BLUE DOGS?
I’ve been on the street regularly protesting the invasion, occupation, and destruction of Iraq since BEFORE the VOTE! I pledged (and kept my pledge) NOT to vote for a single person that voted FOR (or supported) the invasion.
I am still calling members of Congress asking them to co-sponsor H.R. 1234, calling for immediate withdrawal, combined with a 12-point plan to help restore the destruction done in Iraq by you and the Blue Dogs (don’t go blaming the Republicans; they couldn’t have done in without the Blue Dogs in the Senate – ever heard of a filibuster?).
When the U.S. withdraws, I expect YOU to volunteer to go over to Iraq to make sure that you and the Blue Dogs, “…don’t sentence innocent people to die like rats.”
Have you signed up for the Peace Corps yet?
October 18th, 2007 at 4:04 pmDLC needs to be kicked off the political curve FOREVER!
October 18th, 2007 at 4:07 pmAll the DLC Democrats, including Hillary, are in reality Republican-lite corporate whores.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:09 pmThe DLC was made for corporate whores to have an alternative to the DNC.
If the DLC asks for a donation in the upcoming election, tell Ford you bought a Chevy instead.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:09 pmIf the DLC asks for a donation in the upcoming election, tell Ford you bought a Chevy instead.
Comment by RUCerious — October 18, 2007 @ 4:09 pm
Last time the DLC asked me for a donation, I told the caller I only donate to Real Democrats.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:14 pmHe sputtered and tried to tell me they are, lmao
October 18th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Here’s the game plan: choose a strength of your opponent (in this case, a position that 70% of the country agrees with), extrapolate it to its most extreme, then make fun of that extreme as if it actually belonged to your opponent.
Fun, init?
Yeah, that’s true, but that has nothing to do with anything I said, and your troll alert for politely disagreeing is quintessential lameness. People are screaming at Pelosi to cut funds and pull out now. That’s an extreme in terms of the spectrum of approaches to the Iraq problem. Some of us think of foreign policy in colors other than red and blue, automaton
October 18th, 2007 at 4:30 pmI’m glad this guy didn’t win in Tennessee.
Now all we have to do is ensure no Democrat affiliated with the DLC gets elected president in ‘08. Yes, that means you Hillary. Take a seat and let the warmongering stop.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:33 pmTuesday Putin warned us to not invade Iran. Wednesday he travels to Iran and meets with the Iranian President. Then today he publically condemns the Iraq war.
Maybe I’m the only one who sees the writing on the wall, but I have a feeling that everyones going to be seeing it soon, when the walls come crashing down on us.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — October 18, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
Bartlebee, you are definitely not the only one that sees this writing on the wall. Putin is far from being an angel, but he is certainly not up for allowing the U.S. to be the global dominate power in the world. NO country should be. This administration’s arrogance and complete disregard for the opinon of the international community also applies to its disregard for it’s own peoples’ opinion. Such a nation cannot stand. All empires come to an end. Hitler thought the Third Reich would last 1,000 years. He was wrong too.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:37 pmWithdrawing from an OCCUPIED country is not extreme, it’s NORMAL! Your brain is scrambled!
Comment by republicans hate facts — October 18, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
First off, more than 70% of Americans supported going to war with Iraq, so let’s not use polls only when they suite us. I think we all know that the American public was wrong there.
I think we need to get out of there as soon as we can. I’m not for occupation, and I’m disgusted by the way our private industry has swallowed up all the resources there. Give the Iraqis their unrestrained sovereignty.
My point is that if we did that now, the country would fall apart. We are responsible for the safety of those innocent people. You know that the second we leave, the militias will reform and it’ll be post-Vietnam Cambodia all over again. I can’t support anything that produces the potential for genocide, you shouldn’t either if you weren’t just blindly following talking points. We SHOULD be in Darfur, but we’re not. The difference is that if we pull out, we could be the cause of another Darfur.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:48 pmOh, yes, they’re such children!
October 18th, 2007 at 4:51 pmthat has nothing to do with anything I said, and your troll alert for politely disagreeing is quintessential lameness. People are screaming at Pelosi to cut funds and pull out now. That’s an extreme in terms of the spectrum of approaches to the Iraq problem. Some of us think of foreign policy in colors other than red and blue, automaton
Comment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 4:30 pm
(sigh) I guess I have to explain it to you AGAIN, si9nce all you saw was a red flag of “attack!” and decided to ignore what I was actually talking about. Your post castigated “everyone on here” as supporting “immediate withdrawal”, just as Harold Ford characterized Congressional Democrats as follows: “the only option they offer is immediate withdrawal.”
In fact, almost every single proposal to change strategy in Iraq that has been offered by a Democrat has been somewhere in between “immediate withdrawal” and “stay the course”. Many posters here support an immediate withdrawal, but Congressional Democrats have not. Ford is doing no one any favors by suggesting that they are, although that position would tend to strengthen his favor with Faux News where he is employed as another “reasonable liberal” (read: Democrat who will ploitely agree with us a lot).
Your post sounded suspiciously like a concern troll — not because you were “politely disagreeing” but because you used the classic Concern Troll format: “I’m a Bush-hater too BUT…” and you dragged Ford’s straw man another hundred yards.
Maybe you’re not a Concern Troll, and if not I apologize for the alert. But it still sounds like you are one.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:58 pmgive that little cocker sucker ohanlon a gun and send his skinny white ass to iraq. same with ford.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:02 pmYou make some good points, which should be considered; however, I would disagree with your assessment.
1) There is no evidence that us staying there will decrease the violence any more than if we leave.
2) Anti-American sentiment is continuing to grow.
3) (and this is a big one) Iraqis want us out. We claim to be there for their freedom. Well, let them be free.
4) There is some evidence that pulling out may actually reduce violence and actually save lives. In many of the areas that the British pulled out of, the violence has dropped.
Even if we think we should stay, the American people are not willing to sacrifice (a draft) and put the necessary troops in Iraq to control an insurgency. Even Gerneral Petraeus’ counter insurgency manual said 1 military personnell for every 40 civilians is necessary. That would mean ~115,000 for Baghdad alone. We would need a 400,000 or more troops. There is a reason the government has not asked the American people to sacrifice. Hell, they are not even asked to sacrifice in the form of higher taxes to pay for the equipment veterans need as well as taking care of them when they get back.
I would disagree with your “you broke it, you bought” it cliche. I would compare it more to a bull in a china shop. Do you get the bull out of there, or do you let the bull try to clean up his mess? We could stay and MAYBE clean up this mess; however, it is just as likely, if not more likely, that the Iraqis may be able to solve their problems quicker without our military distracting them from their real internal issues.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:05 pm3) (and this is a big one) Iraqis want us out. We claim to be there for their freedom. Well, let them be free.
Comment by DanCaveman — October 18, 2007 @ 5:05 pm
one of the Bush LIES was that we would leave when the Iraqis asked us to.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:09 pmWell they passed a resolution in parlament stating just that over a year ago….. we are still there.
The difference is that if we pull out, we could be the cause of another Darfur.”
Comment by imorgan82 —
There’s the neo-con “if we do this, that might happen” delusional thinking that’s got us stuck where we are.
The experiment has failed. Time to limit the damage to ourselves first.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:12 pmAnother example of why I nearly always oppose the DLC. Seventy percent of Americans and ninety percent of Iraqis want us to leave. Do we have a democracy? Do they?
The DLC always acts so paternalistic. They always act like they know so much better than the average American what is best for the average American. I never liked Terry McAuliffe and I don’t like Rahm Emmanuel.
Don’t leave Iraq immediately–take six or nine months. The Arab League and the UN can help Iraqis with security.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:22 pmI can’t support anything that produces the potential for genocide
Comment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 4:48 pm
If that were true, then you (like me) would have been opposed to our invasion in March 2003. But you were not. You thought it would be wonderful. You came up with 101 excellent reasons why it would be wonderful. You were wrong then and I don’t see why we should follow your fortunetelling skills now.
BTW, the US radicalized Cambodia by our years of bombing which killed at least 300,000 innocent civilians. Then people like you sit back and say ” Oh my goodness, look at how radical the Khymer Rouge are!”
October 18th, 2007 at 5:31 pmLike most republican liars, you also speak in half truths, which are the worst form of lies.
While your statistic is accurate, you leave out the reason they supported going to war.
It was because they were lied to.
Just like you’re lying now.
Comment by BARTLEBEE —
See, this is the black and white thinking of the people on this board. I would rather cut off my own dick than vote republican. Ok? My statistic is accurate because I was disgusted then, as I am now with the groupthink that goes on in both parties. I wasn’t saying that the American support of the war justifies it, I was saying that the American public is stupid and can be tricked into believing anything. Go read a book, the blog world is rotting your critical thinking abilities.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:34 pmimorgan82,
Were more people killed DURING the Vietnam War or AFTER the Vietnam War?
If the US left, would more than one million people die in the following four years?
October 18th, 2007 at 5:41 pmYou must address the realities: The reason we took that part of the world is we wanted to control that part of the world. The main reason we wanted to control that part of the world is the OIL. Long before 9/11, PNAC and the Pentagon wrote this down in black and white. If we stay, those are the reasons we are staying. Everything else is just rationalization for public consumption. We really do not care about the welfare of the Iraqis or the Vietnamese.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:45 pmimorgan82,
Were more people killed DURING the Vietnam War or AFTER the Vietnam War?
If the US left, would more than one million people die in the following four years?
Comment by Keith —
Ugh, you’re all just awful today. I’m simply trying to make the point that instead of just going on predictions, that there should be an intelligent, adaptive process in understanding that question. Obviously what’s going on now is unacceptable, and is just Bush hanging on for dear life (completely sick). We need to stop talking about pulling out and change our mission to “find a way to get out of Iraq without genocide.” If that’s already set to happen, I don’t see why we can’t slowly loosen our grip on the country, rather than be all in or all out. THATS ALL I AM SAYING. EVERYONE CALM DOWN.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:47 pmI was disgusted then, as I am now with the groupthink that goes on in both parties.
Comment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
Oh, I see. Because a lot of people believe it, that automatically makes it wrong. Is that it?
Perhaps the reason 70% now see the war as wrong is not because of “groupthink” but because they’ve had four and a half years to digest its genesis, its effects and its cost, and they’ve decided that it’s Bu**SH**.
Or maybe it’s “groupthink”. Whatever.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:51 pmIt’s really quite simple. The entire reason for invading Iraq is, and always was, to secure permanent military bases in position to control oil production/delivery. Every “insider”, from each side of the aisle, would have deduced as much even if they were “outside the loop”. Then, they used fear, and the wish for vengeance, to sell their agenda
I’m a little surprised at a Dem’s tacit admission of culpability, before the election. Of course, there’s plenty of time to sell the ignorant masses the idea that Dems. support a full withdrawal.
Here’s a news flash! IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN!!!
Our presence in Iraq is no more temporary than our presence in Korea, Germany, Guam or the many other “hosts” to U.S. Military installations. The use of the phrase “strategic interests” is telling. Strategic installations are fixed. Places like Pearl Harbor.
Of course, we could still be forced out. This is increasingly likely so long as H.W’s idiot man-child insists on alienating anyone who might be able to help pull our feet out of the fire.
The gaggle of pandering tools, who wish to replace him, don’t inspire much confidence either.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:51 pmThere’s the neo-con “if we do this, that might happen†delusional thinking that’s got us stuck where we are.
The experiment has failed. Time to limit the damage to ourselves first.
Comment by barfly —
No, that’s not a neo-con thing. That’s a “thinking” thing. Or “logic”, considering you phrased it in the classic “if, then” structure. If someone tried the “if we do this, that may happen” thinking, we wouldn’t have been in this mess in the first place. That’s not delusional, and a person with an IQ above 90 would realize that.
Read this so I don’t have to say it over and over should I make the mistake of posting here again: I am NOT conservative in ANY way. The only thing I care about are defenseless people’s human rights. Just because I’ve not bought into your empty thoughtless rhetoric doesn’t mean I wouldn’t love to see everyone in that White House in jail.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:55 pmimorgan82,
Sorry, looks like I misunderstood you somewhat. But you are wrong if you think we are bringing peace and stability to Iraq. Ninety percent of them want us out NOW. They see us as being there to take their oil. We are.
We should begin pulling out now and complete within 6-9 months. Let the Arab League, The UN, and the Iraqis (there’s a radical thought) take care of security.
There is also the problem of us not having the $2 Trillion this is costing us.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:55 pmWe don’t need to keep troops in Iraq. Let’s just pull back to Kuwait, where we have been since 1991, and Saudi Arabia. If the Iraqi government needs us then we’d be a short distance away.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:56 pmOh, I see. Because a lot of people believe it, that automatically makes it wrong. Is that it?
Perhaps the reason 70% now see the war as wrong is not because of “groupthink†but because they’ve had four and a half years to digest its genesis, its effects and its cost, and they’ve decided that it’s Bu**SH**.
Or maybe it’s “groupthinkâ€. Whatever.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama —
Again, you’ve missed my point, because you can’t think in anything but party lines. Popularity has nothing to do with it. I don’t care about what the American public does or does not approve of. I was just making a comment in passing since you brought up the public support of withdrawal, and I happen to think that the public’s opinion is based in the law of inertia, and nothing more.
If you want someone to argue with, pick someone with more time on their hands. You’re way off the topic of discussion, and you’re reading these posts as soundbites instead of paragraphs. Go get your news from the NY Times or something, reading nothing but blog posts is making all of you retarded. This board has deduced that I’m a neo-con, supporter of the war, a Blue Dog, and imperialist. You have no idea how dumb this will sound to my friends at the bar later tonight.
October 18th, 2007 at 6:03 pmComment by pete — October 18, 2007 @ 5:51 pm
I am afraid you are right. In the real world, we are not going to have a president Kucinich, or Feingold, or Nader. We are going to have permanent military bases in Iraq because we are hooked on OIL. We wanted to control every square inch of the planet Earth long before 9/11.
October 18th, 2007 at 6:04 pmimorgan,
You are right. Some of us pulled a “BartleBee” and attacked you too quickly. But you should read some books by Chomsky and William Blum. If the last 100 military incursions by the US were not really for the altruistic reasons claimed, then chances are this one was not either.
The Iraqis do not see us as unselfish knights on white horses. Shouldn’t there be LESS violence if we got out? We have turned it into the #2 failed state in the world.
October 18th, 2007 at 6:10 pmThe sad fact is that rational, humble, people could get our troops out in months.
1) Go to the U.N. (admittedly imperfect but stick with me) and say, “We screwed up. Help”!
2) Have the elected Iraqi government invite troops from neighboring counties OF THEIR CHOICE to supplement U.N. “Peace keepers”.
3) Invite N.A.T.O. (especially Turkey) into the reconstruction process.
4) Bring the boys home.
The only things standing in the way of this happening is the hubris, and greed, of our leaders. Their hubris won’t allow them to admit the slightest error. Their greed won’t allow them to relinquish control of the oil.
October 18th, 2007 at 6:12 pmComment by pete — October 18, 2007 @ 6:12 pm
I agree. Iraq’s oil reserves now estimated at $20 Trillion.
October 18th, 2007 at 6:16 pmDump them all!
October 18th, 2007 at 6:18 pmComment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 6:03 pm
Again, you’ve missed my point, because you can’t think in anything but party lines.
Please explain how you reached the (erroneous) conclusion that I “can’t think in anything but party lines”. Seems like a pretty broad conclusion to reach based on a brief series of responses in a blog forum. Although, to be fair, such an insult would help you feel better about not reading what I wrote.
Popularity has nothing to do with it. I don’t care about what the American public does or does not approve of. I was just making a comment in passing since you brought up the public support of withdrawal, and I happen to think that the public’s opinion is based in the law of inertia, and nothing more.
Inertia? A swing from 80% in favor to 70% opposed is “based in the law of inertia”? You must define “inertia” differently than I do.
So a close reading of your comment (emphasis mine) “I happen to think that the public’s opinion is based in the law of inertia, and nothing more.” must lead one to teh conclusion that you don’t believe that the public’s attitude toward the war has anything to do with the actual condtions in Iraq, the likelihood for success, the drain on our resources, or the loss of our young people.
interesting.
I take everything back. You really are the reasonable one here.
October 18th, 2007 at 6:31 pmIf the whole freakin military can’t secure US strategic interests (their oil), please Mr. Ford, explain how a battalion or two are going to do it.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:03 pmDemocrat or no I’m glad that that Uncle Tom DINO homophobe lost his Senate bid in Tennessee. He’s a total scumbag.
I’d rather have a Republican who’s honest about his political partisanship than a Democrat who talks like, acts like and vote like a Republican.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:23 pmformer Rep. Harold Ford
Who?!
OOO!!!, The guy who lost his seat to the kind of people who’s ass he keeps kissing, the guy who wants to get along with the people who ran the “call me” ad, the guy who is well liked by Sean Hannity.
Never heard of him, and I dont wanna hear from him either.
F’in Loser
RIP
October 18th, 2007 at 7:27 pmSGT Stephen R. sherman
C CO 1-5 In (STRYKER)
KIA 3 Feb 2005
Mosul, Iraq
Since when are Democrats refered to as they by the Democratic Leadership Council???
Unreal.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:04 pmNo, you pulled a “Harry Reid†and got suckered again.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — October 18, 2007 @ 7:47 pm
We were wrong to assume he was pro-invasion. We were right to criticize him for thinking things would be worse if the US leaves.
You called him a republican. Further reading shows that he clearly is not.
Bartlebee, you have never admitted to being wrong about anything. I don’t expect you to begin now. You always attack first and don’t even bother to ask questions later. It is always about you.
You lambasted me endlessly for not bowing down to Greenspan’s alleged conversion to progressivism, claiming I could not comprehend your political genius. How did that work out? You got suckered!!!
October 18th, 2007 at 8:17 pmBeware those who quote scriptures.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:18 pmYou are like people who have “conversations” with others but never listen to a single word they say. You are only just thinking of what you are going to say next. You never listen. That is why you always misunderstand others.
Read what I have written on this post alone. It is nowhere near “Harry Reid”.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:25 pmBARTLEBEE,
GO CHENEY YOURSELF. SOMEBODY REMIND ME NEVER TO HAVE A “CONVERSATION” WITH THIS JACKASS EVER AGAIN.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:27 pmYou also said I was a troll who sometimes used the name “Joe Caribe” and I know that is not f’ing true!!!
October 18th, 2007 at 8:28 pmLet’s see…
Straw man as in #1
and Caption Contest…
Hmmm, a song comes to mind…
Please change lines as you please and SING-A-LONG.
Maestro, [tap, tap, tap]
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin’ with the flowers
Consultin’ with the rain
And my head I’d be scratchin’
While my thoughts were busy hatchin’
If I only had a brain
I’d unravel any riddle
For any individ’le
In trouble or in pain
(Dorothy)
With the thoughts you’d be thinkin’
You could be another Lincoln
If you only had a brain
(Scarecrow)
Oh, I would tell you why
The ocean’s near the shore
I could think of things I never thunk before
And then I’d sit and think some more
I would not be just a nuffin’
October 18th, 2007 at 8:31 pmMy head all full of stuffin’
My heart all full of pain
I would dance and be merry
Life would be a ding-a-derry
If I only had a brain
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/16/lantos-agrees-with-greenspan-iraq-war-was-largely-about-oil/
So TOLIVER\AKA\JOECARIBE\AKA\KEITH.
You lose.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — September 17, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
October 18th, 2007 at 8:34 pmI never said “you lose”. That was part of your quote.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:41 pmYou are not going to prove you are not a jackass by continuing to act like a jackass.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:42 pmimorgan-many posts
As already mentioned above, you are believing in the Powell Doctrine about owning what you break. This sounds fair and right on the surface, but fails when looked at in the big picture. Whether we broke Iraq or not is not the point. That we should not have gone there at all, is the only point that matters. We had no RIGHT then to invade, and we have no RIGHT to remain now. Period, end of story.
You are the one here who is suffering from a lack of original thinking, not the members posting here. You need to think for yourself. You are the one who is short on understanding the ethics and morals of lying, deceiving, invasion and occupation, and cloaking your lack of same in “prophetic concern”.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:43 pmI have never used another name except those that were obviously, sarcastically false like W, CondiRice, or OBL.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:44 pmI agree with Merlin totally.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:45 pmMerlin,
Do you and I disagree? I don’t think so.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:54 pmWhat exactly did I say that was wrong and troll-like?
October 18th, 2007 at 8:59 pm“No, that’s not a neo-con thing. That’s a “thinking†thing. Or “logicâ€, considering you phrased it in the classic “if, then†structure. If someone tried the “if we do this, that may happen†thinking, we wouldn’t have been in this mess in the first place. That’s not delusional, and a person with an IQ above 90 would realize that.”
Baloney. Your premise about Iraq (that we are on the political hook, because we invaded) is just the other side of the Neo-con coin: their assertions about hopefully installing “freedom and democracy” never worked, and pushing an unproven gloom and doom scenario is about as valid as their previous claims. No-one knows for sure what will happen if we leave; the Iraqis might just surprise us, and take responsibility for their country, making US involvement superflous. It’s at least as likely as a total meltdown.
“Read this so I don’t have to say it over and over should I make the mistake of posting here again: I am NOT conservative in ANY way. The only thing I care about are defenseless people’s human rights. Just because I’ve not bought into your empty thoughtless rhetoric doesn’t mean I wouldn’t love to see everyone in that White House in jail.”
Comment by imorgan82
My empty thoughtless rhetoric? You’re the one hawking GOP talking points as if they were your own, deeply-held beliefs.
Dismissed.
Comment by imorgan82
October 18th, 2007 at 9:03 pmKeith,
October 18th, 2007 at 9:04 pmWhat is between you and Bartlebee is off topic to me. I would prefer not to enter the fracas. Besides, the words written here speak for themselves, don’t they?
Merlin,
I would like some confirmation that Bartlebee is the only one who has a problem with me. He just said you don’t agree with what I say. I just wanted you to say that was false.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:07 pmAccording to Bartlebee, my words here say that I am a dumb, thickskulled, right-wing troll. And I am getting pretty sick of it.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:08 pmComment by Keith — October 18, 2007 @ 9:07 pm
I would like some confirmation that Bartlebee is the only one who has a problem with me.
Yes, I know what you want! I prefer not to get involved here. Better you should ask Bartlebee how he knows I don’t agree with you.
You are inviting me to play a psychological Game that Eric Berne called “Let’s you and him fight.” I lose no matter which side I line up with. If I say I agree with you I lose with Bartlebee. If I say I don’t, I have lost with you. It does not matter whether, in reality, I agree with you or not, this is an emotional trap. Count me out.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:19 pmwhatever happened to “the truth”?
October 18th, 2007 at 9:28 pmAh yes, The DLC! Aren’t they a wonderful bunch of fellows! Take Will Marshall (please!) for instance:
“Will Marshall co-signed a letter to President Bush from the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) endorsing military action against Saddam Hussein.”
He was the co-founder, along with From, of the DLC. And these DINO’s have actually sold themselves as “centrists.” So says the compliant MSM pundits. The DLC has been the “voice” of the Democratic Party until just a few years ago when Howard Dean won the DNC top post over his DLC opponent.
Guess which Dem. Presidential hopeful is solidly in the DLC camp. (Hint, WJC knows only too well)
October 18th, 2007 at 10:12 pm#129 Comment by BARTLEBEE — October 18, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
When she gets into the White House she can get her knob polished in the Oval Office too.
Ah, but who will she get to do the polishing? She isn’t the opposite sex killer hubby was.
Reminds me of Gilbert & Sullivan… “I polished up the handle so carefully, that now I am the ruler of the Queens navy.”
BTW, I loved your lyrics to Oz! I expect I will be hearing them for the rest of the evening.
October 18th, 2007 at 10:32 pmComment by BARTLEBEE — October 18, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
LOL! Well done…
Besides, I hear her’s is bigger.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — October 18, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
Now THAT’S a visual…
October 18th, 2007 at 11:11 pmDidn’t this guy lose?!
October 19th, 2007 at 1:30 am“…find a way to get out of Iraq without genocide.†If that’s already set to happen, I don’t see why we can’t slowly loosen our grip on the country, rather than be all in or all out. THATS ALL I AM SAYING. EVERYONE CALM DOWN.
Comment by imorgan82 — October 18, 2007 @ 5:47 pm
No, that IS NOT “ALL” you are saying. You are saying that those who don’t agree with you are taking an “extreme opinion.” That, of course, is a LIE.
Did you read H.R. 1234, “To end the United States occupation of Iraq immediately,” which I referenced in my comment at 4:04 pm? You can here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1234:
While this legislation calls for the immediate end to the occupation of Iraq, it is NOT extreme. It is a rational 12-point plan for protecting the folks in Iraq whom the DLC “Blue Dogs” have condemned to interminable warfare, death, and casualties.
Your mindless defense of the “Blue Dogs” is the EXTREME position in here.
Don’t continue to lie and make excuses for your EXTREME position, with your LYING statement: “… I don’t see why we can’t slowly loosen our grip on the country, rather than be all in or all out. THATS ALL I AM SAYING…”
No, it is NOT.
October 19th, 2007 at 4:29 amAlright. Fuuuuuuuuk all of you. You can’t tolerate someone from your own party disagreeing with you, that’s fine.
Bartlebee, your paranoid framing of me is so utterly retarded, I am just without response at this point. I thought I would be more active with this board, seeing as I’ve been a reader for several years, but I’m done.
I’m not trying to “fool” anyone, I was just trying to have a conversation. I’m canceling my account on here. The boards on Politico are way more civil and respectful anyway. If you have any more judgements or comments for me, I suggest you go find a brick wall to argue with.
Vote Obama, that is, if you’re 18, b1tch
October 19th, 2007 at 2:18 pm#141 and 142 Comment by BARTLEBEE — October 19, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
The “new troll†will be “incog-neatoâ€.
Just like Hilary.
Exactly! And there is no better proof of the utterly bankrupt position of, not only this administration and its enablers, but the”centrist DLC” neocon hanger oners who are way off on the right wing.
It will be no wonder when Bush encourages the big H in her quest to replace him as the corporate backed, and neocon driven shill that he is.
October 19th, 2007 at 6:26 pmDid you notice that “Blue Dog” troll, imorgan82, tucked his tail between his legs and ran out of the thread shrilly screaming, “Alright. Fuuuuuuuuk all of you…”
He ran out BEFORE he had to respond to my posts about H.R. 1234, “To end the United States occupation of Iraq immediately.â€
Fact is, he couldn’t respond, because, if you read H.R. 1234 (you can read it here: http://thomas.loc.gov/ cgi-bin/ query/ z?c110:H.R.1234:), you will find that every objection to immediate withdrawal from Iraq that has been made by the Blue Dogs and their “conservative” enablers is dealt with in the legislation and their arguments are made to look as stupid as they are!
Bye, Bye, Blue Dog troll, imorgan82! Please don’t come back!
See how polite I was? {:-)
October 20th, 2007 at 3:36 amFord,
You suprise . . . and not in a good way.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:43 am