NYT Embraces White House Talking Point, Claims Bush’s Veto Proves He Can ‘Still Get His Way’
NYT Embraces White House Talking Point, Claims Bush’s Veto Proves He Can ‘Still Get His Way’
Yesterday, House conservatives sustained President Bush’s SCHIP veto, killing a bill that was overwhelmingly supported by the American public. The White House used the occasion to assert its dominance over the legislative branch. “We won this round on SCHIP,” claimed White House spokeswoman Dana Perino.
Perino’s comments underscore Bush’s claim earlier this week, when he argued that by issuing vetoes, he ensures that he is “relevant.” “That’s one way to ensure that I’m in the process,” he told reporters.
The media have blindly picked up this administration talking point. In a New York Times article today, authors Robert Pear and Sheryl Gay Stolberg called Bush’s veto “artful” and said it shows that he is able to “still get his way on Capitol Hill“:
For now, the insurance vote stands as the latest example of how Mr. Bush can still get his way on Capitol Hill. Through artful use of veto threats and his veto pen, Mr. Bush has fended off attempts to force a change of course in Iraq — a feat Democrats would never have imagined when they pushed Republicans out of power a year ago. He has twisted Democrats into knots over domestic surveillance, and forced them to rethink a resolution condemning as genocide a century-old massacre of Armenians.
Bush’s vetoes aren’t “artful.” They have killed bills widely supported by the public. They also don’t say anything about Bush’s relevance or power. As a recent analysis in the National Journal shows, overriding a president’s veto has historically been rare:
Any president can wield a veto pen. A more significant measure of Bush’s power is the fact he has been unable to convince Congress to pass his major priorities, such as immigration and Social Security. Last month, Bush himself acknowledged that people don’t listen to him and in January, the American public already thought that Bush was a lame duck.
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So, according to chimpy, a president uses the veto to assert relevance. Since he’s used the veto only 3 (or is it 4 now?) times, that must mean that he’s been relevant to our country only 3 or 4 times in 6 years. Great work shrub!
October 19th, 2007 at 12:20 pmIt’s no suprise that “staying relevant” is more important to Chimpy than doing what’s right for the country.
He doesn’t give a single sh!t about what’s best for the country, but you all know that…
October 19th, 2007 at 12:22 pmHow does a veto make him any more relevant than would signing the bill?
October 19th, 2007 at 12:25 pmFord’s (short) Administration used a lot of vetoes and was overriden a lot of times. Captain of that ship was, of course, Chief of Staff Dick Cheney.
As the chart above shows, a major Ford Veto was Congress’ Freedom of Information Act. Ford’s anti-freedom sentiments were overriden.
Is it any coincedence that the Freedom of Information Act is under assault today? Is Cheney systematically re-fighting all of his 30-year old battles?
October 19th, 2007 at 12:26 pmHe really just sounds like a kid looking for attention. I wish he would resort to farting in church, rather than destroying our nation.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:28 pmArtful? Do these NY Times reporters have their heads up their a**es? Whatever happened to real journalists in this country? Have aliens from outer space replaced them with idiots?
October 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pmJust wait till this time next year, when the Dem’s hang this vote around the necks of those who voted against it, with another vote , weeks before the General Election!
October 19th, 2007 at 12:30 pmAfter the primaries are over, the Rush from Bush’s’ Bosom will make a buffalo stampede look like a walk in the park!
Hang tight folks, ‘08 will expose Bush and his posse, in sunlight so bright they might all want to retire, and spend more time in bathroom stalls!
Well, the NYT is right. Bush can still get his way on Capitol Hill, because the Democrats are a bunch of worthless pussies.
However, I would not describe the use of the veto as a “artful.” What kind of creative literary license are the authors of this article taking?
October 19th, 2007 at 12:32 pmIs it any coincedence that the Freedom of Information Act is under assault today? Is Cheney systematically re-fighting all of his 30-year old battles?
Comment by CitiDC
Anyone who has even a small grasp of history should know Cheney has been at this for decades. We all should have known when Bush tapped Cheney – or at least the handlers who chose Bush – we would see more power grabs and a distain for the rule of law. The same characters are engaging in the same behaviors they are known for. This should surprise nobody. What surprises me still is the MSM doesn’t even want to connect the dots with all these people. Bad people engage in bad behavior whether it is 30 years ago or 30 minutes ago. We get the government we deserve.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pmUh, he still does get his way…thanks to our fine Democratic Congress.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:34 pmoh, i dunno… i understand the argument, TP,
but it’s pretty obvious – he’s not really a “lame duck”…
thanks mostly to obstructionist repugs…
and the frightened dems…
public campaign financing would fix most of that…
October 19th, 2007 at 12:34 pm…
The chart establishes two deplorable facts:
1. Bush and the Republicans have been able to bat down programs at will without the Dems even forcing it to a vote. These have been popular measures, such as SCHIP or Iraq. The Dems give up without a fight.
2. The Dems fail to force the vetoes and publicize the obstructionist tendencies of this President and his party. It is pitiful given the fact that Republicans consistently (and somewhat successfully) blamed Democrats for obstructing their agenda.
This is just sick. COME ON DEMS, BEND OVER AND ASK FOR IT UP YOUR ***. YOU SURE LOOK LIKE WIMPS TO ME.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:35 pmI read this article. Do you guys have to strip out absolutely all context from writing? All they were trying to say is that Bush is still an obstacle. This is, of course, an empirical statement, as he did stop the bill from becoming law. No one can argue that. Sure his opinions aren’t going to change any votes, and he’s irrelevant from that standpoint, but he HAS a veto pen.
No one is saying Bush has sway. They’re saying that (unfortunately), he is still the President. If Pelosi had any fortitude, she’d impeach him.
Are you really gonna beat up on the Times for not being liberal enough? Again, stop thinking in soundbites and read the whole god damn paragraph; it’ll save you some embarrassment.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:39 pmbut, on the other hand, instead of thinking negatively,
we ALL should pick up on these TP points and repeat them:
* Bush’s vetoes aren’t “artful.â€
* They have killed bills widely supported by the public.
*They also don’t say anything about Bush’s relevance or power [...] overriding a president’s veto has historically been rare…
* he has been unable to convince Congress to pass his major priorities, such as immigration and Social Security.
REPEAT.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:40 pm.
…
but, on the other hand, instead of thinking/reacting negatively,
we ALL should pick up on these TP points and repeat them:
* Bush’s vetoes aren’t “artful.â€
* They have killed bills widely supported by the public.
*They also don’t say anything about Bush’s relevance or power [...] overriding a president’s veto has historically been rare…
* he has been unable to convince Congress to pass his major priorities, such as immigration and Social Security.
REPEAT.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pm.
Dang skippy Katy!!!!
October 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pmBush isn’t doing anything. It’s the small group of Chimp Fluffing right wing Republicans in the Congress who are refusing to vote to override his vetoes. That’s the only thing that makes any difference. What the New York Times is suggesting is that Republicans have taken Chimp Fluffing to the heights of an art form.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pmYeah. I repeat: this moron is relevant the same way two-year-olds throwing tantrums are relevant.
ITMFA!!!
October 19th, 2007 at 12:45 pmyes, denying health care to the children of the working poor is artful. Or as Dana P. claimed, victorious.
Let’s get real. There is a large enough faction in the Congress that will vote with Bush every time, even if they disagree with him. Because it’s about winning, not governing. Lott said as much, and that’s their agenda. It’s about making Democrats look bad or ineffective. Period.
Look at the types of bills he vetoed. Stem cell twice, ending the war, and health care for kids. Not very brave, is he?
October 19th, 2007 at 12:46 pmI suspect that Randi Rhodes was attacked by minorities, and was paid hush money to claim that she “fell”.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:46 pmIn short, the people once again rejected widespread socialized medicine, and any inkling therof.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
You know what? I would bet my bottom dollar that Bigfoot enjoys the same “socialized medicine” he wants to keep from YOU. That is how the idiots on the right operate: As soon as they get something good, they want to limit who can participate.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:48 pm?
October 19th, 2007 at 12:48 pmi just wonder, bigfoot – did you kick your college attending children off
your insurance coverage when they turned 18? or 16? when?
?
Bush still has power, the SCHIP expansion was NOT “overwhelmingly supportedâ€, and as it stands, the proposed expansion of a children’s health program to those who aren’t “children†and to those who can afford their own health care, failed.
In short, the people once again rejected widespread socialized medicine, and any inkling therof.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
That’s interesting OBigFootInMouth. You don’t consider 80% to be overwhelmingly supportive? And I won’t even address all your SCHIP talking points that have all been dis-proven.
Here’s a question for you OBigFootInMouth – who wrote the first “socialized medicine” SCHIP law?
October 19th, 2007 at 12:50 pmAll of this is true, but the Democratic leadership continues to refuse, time and time again, to force the GOP in Congress to go on the record / filibuster or force the Commander in Chief to exercise that veto pen, over and over and over and over until his hand hurts. That is the true lament of those here and will, if not careful, cause real and lasting harm to the party.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:50 pmI hope the next time the Democrats put this bill up it wins…but without the grossly unfair tobacco tax. That was a Republican idea, an incredibly regressive tax…a sin tax, like all good Republicans love.
I also hope the media does a better job of talking about the funding plan for the bill next time than it did this time. The tobacco tax, of sixty-one cents per pack on every person who smokes, regardless of income, was all but kept secret.
SCHIP is a good program and deserves to be expanded. But everyone should be involved in paying for it, not just the demon du jour minority.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:52 pmThe NYT is correct that Bush can still get his own way, even if that way is off a cliff. The NYT is NOT correct that Bush is operating through “artful use of a veto pen”. There’s nothing artful about circumventing the obvious will of the people. He has managed to thwart funding for children and keep an unnecessary war going through his vetoes, but I wouldn’t call using a system that benefits him “artful”.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:59 pm“We won this round” said Perino.
“Won”??? They think this is a game? The WH vs Congress?
October 19th, 2007 at 1:00 pmThe trolls have a point with this TP article. The NYT says nothing wrong. Bush HAS a veto pen and if he wants to use it to make him feel “relevant” then the only way to stop him is to override his veto, which House Republicans won’t let happen.
It’s about “winning”, not about good government. It’s about “what’s best for the paty”, not about “what’s best for the nation”.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:03 pmNot totally off topic since this is headed for the next veto fight:
Chris Dodd will filibuster FISA if the hold does not work.
http://chrisdodd.com/blog/going-mat-constitution
October 19th, 2007 at 1:12 pmAh, the imperial zionist corporate NY Times… still standing tall for the oil-nazis… all the fascist lies, smears and propaganda “fit to print”…
October 19th, 2007 at 1:18 pm“Won�?? They think this is a game? The WH vs Congress?
Comment by Mugsy
Yes, it is.
Check the desperation of WH propaganda about Iraq: Victory. Winning. Prevail. etc… all those words bounded to a feeling of brief, inocous success.
Check the reasons of some trolls around: Victory. We still can win.
Check out the words of Bush followers after his “victory” in 2004: WE won. As if it was a game with 300 million players, where 150 just LOST. As if it was a game and not the life of a country.
Check out the general philosophy of life in Western Civilization about what success means.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:23 pmBush still has power, the SCHIP expansion was NOT “overwhelmingly supportedâ€, and as it stands, the proposed expansion of a children’s health program to those who aren’t “children†and to those who can afford their own health care, failed.
In short, the people once again rejected widespread socialized medicine, and any inkling therof.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 19, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Whoa there — you’re spinning so much you’re losing control of reality.
1) The SCHIP expansion IS “overwhelmingly supported” — 70% want it. That breaks down to 82% of Dems, 69% of independents, and even 54% of Repubs. If that’s not overwhelming, what is?
2) The program was to be expanded to cover dependents who could normally be covered under their parents’ insurance coverage, including college students up to the age of 25. You have conflated this to suggest that all 25-year olds would be covered, which isn’t true (but that hasn’t stopped you from continuing to trumpet this debunked talking point).
3) You are also still spouting the other debunked GOP talking point, that it covers families with high incomes — people whom you say can afford to pay for their own health insurance. Not true. These high income figures apply only to high cost of living areas such as New York City, where $82,000 is barely enough to get by. You make these tired points over and over, but you never address the rebuttals.
4) The “people” didn’t reject the SCHIP expansion (and I’ll ignore your use of the “widespread socialized medicine” boogeyman). Bush did. Along with just enough of his Repub toadies in Congress (plus two Dems) to prevent the override. Remember that the “people” WANTED the expansion. In significant numbers — refer back to point #1.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:23 pmmissmolly, you are much more gracious and patient with O. Bgmouth than it deserves. Very nicely stated, too.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:29 pm“We won this round†said Perino.
“Won�?? They think this is a game? The WH vs Congress?
Comment by Mugsy — October 19, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
Exactly. It’s never been about doing what’s best for this country — it’s just about “winning”. And being “relevant”. One gets the idea that the reason Bush vetoed the bill is only because he had to prevent Congress from “winning”.
Why do you think we are still engaged in a lost cause in Iraq? Even Bush has given up on the idea of “winning” there — he’s just staying the course until somebody else gets elected. Then he can blame that person for “losing” the war.
This might be amusing if it wasn’t just so pathetic. And scary.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:30 pmAll this poor excuse for a president has to do is threaten to hold his breath and stamp his feet and……….he gets his way. What does this administration hold over the heads of these people?
It is so pathetic and embarassing when you know the rest of the world sees exactly what is going on and it just keeps happening. I so hate that we, the american people who make up the majority against this president, are being viewed as supporting this behavior.
I pray that sanity and reality will somehow shine a light on those who can make a difference.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:47 pmFirst of all, I ABSOLUTELY hate this President.
The Democrats, and most of those on this site, need to get their heads out of their butts.
TP is WRONG, and the NYT is right. Please give me ONE issue where Congress and the President have come to loggerheads that Congress (especially the Democrats) have won. The only one that I can think of is the minimum wage. All the hearings (Executive Privilege), all the legislation, etc. have ALL been won by the Republicans and the President. Be it procedural (cloture votes) or simple votes, the Republicans and the President have continued to push THEIR agenda.
This should have been a no-brainer for the Democrats. The American public was behind this bill. They had the support of NUMEROUS Republican governors. THEY STILL LOST!!
As recently as six months ago, I thought that the Democrats had a lock on getting a huge majority in both houses and winning the Presidency. More and more my hopes are being dashed. Non-binding resolutions, no impeachment, continually being confrontational only to give the President what he wants (The Patriot Act, FISA, torture, the Iraq War to mention a few.)
Anyone else feel as if the Democrats are cooking their own goose?
October 19th, 2007 at 1:58 pm…you are much more gracious and patient with O. Bgmouth than it deserves”
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — October 19, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Posters like O. Bigfoot and TCDon are pretty easy to be gracious and patient with. Their talking points are easily refutable and they’re good sports — they don’t devolve into tantrum-spewing children. And once debunked, they tend to slink away.
It’s the posters like michael and Mr. P that I try to avoid getting sucked into. Michael’s endless inane questions (that he probably thinks are intellectual challenges) and Mr. P’s childish insults remind me of the old axiom: “never argue with an idiot — they drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.”
October 19th, 2007 at 2:01 pmGW666 will go down as the pResident that sucked as$ the most. What a total embarrassing POS Fascist Pig he is.
Buck Fush
October 19th, 2007 at 2:09 pmAnyone else feel as if the Democrats are cooking their own goose?
Comment by dogjudge — October 19, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
it’s easy to think that at times… yes, i worry about it…
but, mostly, i hate to see dems preheating the oven…
know what i mean?
October 19th, 2007 at 2:10 pm.
Be it procedural (cloture votes) or simple votes, the Republicans and the President have continued to push THEIR agenda.
This should have been a no-brainer for the Democrats. The American public was behind this bill. They had the support of NUMEROUS Republican governors. THEY STILL LOST!!
Comment by dogjudge
First of all, the Republicans and the President ARE NOT pushing THEIR agenda, they are blocking the agenda of the Democrats and the will of the people.
And second of all, how exactly what would you have proposed the Democrats do to “win” on SCHIP. They came very close to winning. The fact that so many Republicans chose to stick with the sinking USSBush was not the fault of the Democrats and there really wasn’t much they could do about it. As it was, they convinced something like 12 Democrats and Republicans to change their vote. That was the best they could do with the Republican mindset of “Party over Country”.
October 19th, 2007 at 2:43 pmGWB gets his relevance through depriving kids better health coverage, the Times get it relevance thru the artful regurgitation of his talking points which in most cases are unintelligable.
October 19th, 2007 at 2:58 pm……and set right the balance of dark and light in the universe.
George W. Bush personifies the most malevolent, irredeemable and unholy aspects of mankind. Not only is he wantonly destructive, purposefully dishonest and shamelessly unremorseful, he disgracefully defends his catastrophic decisions by hiding and perpetuating the devastating impact they have on the lives of defenseless human beings. Hundreds of thousands of innocent children, women and men, who have not harbored a harmful thought toward another human being, have been murdered, eviscerated and maimed as a direct result of George W. Bush being the president of the United States of America. And yet, his overriding priority is to prolong the inhuman carnage he has instigated, not to end it. George W. Bush is an indelibly chilling example of what man is capable of doing to his fellow man……the worst example imaginable.
IMPEACHMENT is the only means we have of stopping the destructive consequences of the outright IGNORANCE, ARROGANCE, INCOMPETENCE, DISHONESTIES, INSECURITIES, HOSTILE TEMPERAMENT, VINDICTIVENESS and PRONOUNCED PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS of George W. Bush. He is an intellectually and emotionally mean-spirited immature child who is destroying America’s honor and integrity single-handedly. And we are standing by watching as he dismantles our Constitution and creates an all powerful and self-ruling single branch form of government.
October 19th, 2007 at 3:06 pmAs recently as six months ago, I thought that the Democrats had a lock on getting a huge majority in both houses and winning the Presidency. More and more my hopes are being dashed. Non-binding resolutions, no impeachment, continually being confrontational only to give the President what he wants (The Patriot Act, FISA, torture, the Iraq War to mention a few.)
Anyone else feel as if the Democrats are cooking their own goose?
Comment by dogjudge — October 19, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
I have lost hope, though once and awhile, I’ll try to rally it again. I no longer believe there’s a political solution, here or anywhere. The affliction we suffer from is a world-wide phenomenen. The War on Terrorism is the war OF terrorism, with the U.S. having the leadership role, answering to the multinational corporations. The web of trade agreements binds most nations, and fear does the rest. And we’ve been effectively blinded from seeing anything more than just bits and pieces of this. Rome had their bread and circuses to distract their citizens. Nothing has changed in the way we are distracted and kept unaware of reality now. Only the technology to do so.
I just had my 60th birthday a couple of days ago, and realized I’ve been watching this crap my whole life, and trying to intercede, when and where I could, for the last 40.
October 19th, 2007 at 3:11 pmbilbobaggins
What would I have the Democrats do?
Well let’s start off with – ohhhh, we can’t do anything we’re the minority. We then go to ohhhh, we can’t do anything we don’t have a veto proof majority.
THAT attitude is a BIG part of the problem.
In the Senate, the Republicans have stopped ANYTHING from happening by threatening filibuster unless there is a super majority vote on the issue. How about the Democrats FORCING these filibusters and having the Republicans actually filibuster to show America what obstructionists these folks are?
Let’s see we have funding for the war in Schip, Iraq, the Patriot Act, FISA, Wiretapping (as we are going through right now), and on and on. The Democrats have talked a good story, but they have folded on EVERY ONE of these issues. And don’t tell me about a super majority. Unless the situation changes, the REPUBLICANS can’t pass any of this legislation until the Democrats fold an go along with them. And the Democrats have FOLDED each and every time.
Then we get the Liberman/Kyle (?) resolution about Iran. Democrats stand up and defeat it? Not a chance. They folded again. And has been mentioned, this could potentially be used by the President as an authorization to attack Iran. Just stand up and be counted Hillary!
The ONLY thing that I’ve seen recently is Chris Dodd threatening to filibuster the FISA bill because of telecom immunity. GOOD FOR HIM!! At least he’s doing something.
Oh, and how about all of the hearings and the President using Executive Privilege? Has Patrick Leahy, and the others, DONE anything but complain? How about using their CONSTITUTIONAL powers and bringing these folks before the Senate and actually CHARGING them and having a trial?
On Schip. Why didn’t the Democrats get every Republican governor who supported this legislation on TV telling the American people that they were for the legislation and their representatives were WRONG. Even the Catholic church went after Rep. Thaddeus G. McCotter (R-Mich.) for his opposition to Schip.
And then we get the BIG one. Our terrific Democratic candidates promise to get the troops out of Iraq by 2013!! Gee what a wonderful decisive position that is.
October 19th, 2007 at 3:13 pmOK Dems, here is your golden opportunity. Every campaign add in the next 2 years –
The Repubs were glad that belligerance could over-rule the will of the people.
October 19th, 2007 at 3:19 pmA staple Democratic television spot for the next decade should feature Bush vetoing SCHIP, interspersed with pictures of children subsequently denied health coverage, Dana Perino declaring “We won this round,” and then close with a variation of “These are the values of the Republican Party.”
Every market, every state, every election. Bring the GOP to its knees.
October 19th, 2007 at 3:54 pm“All nature is a gigantic struggle between strength and weakness, an eternal victory of the strong over the weak.”
—Adolf Hitler
October 19th, 2007 at 5:21 pm# 46 Red Pill
A staple Democratic television spot for the next decade should feature Bush vetoing SCHIP, interspersed with pictures of children subsequently denied health coverage, Dana Perino declaring “We won this round,†and then close with a variation of “These are the values of the Republican Party.â€
Red Pill, as a friendly amendment, may I suggest also interjecting Rush Limbaughs mocking of Michael J Fox, tearing apart a slightly built 12 year old kid, and suggesting that the kid held hostage in the St Louis area liked being tortured.
These are soundbites from just one person identified strongly with conservativism. Please expand to Fox News and there is more material than one could possibly use.
October 19th, 2007 at 5:32 pmAmidst all of the name-calling and put-downs of the NYT, dogjudge and impeachcheneythenbush “get it”, and I’m as sick in my guts as they are to see who is calling the shots in Congress.
The worst error I see in the NYT excerpt is in the following line:
” –a feat Democrats would never have imagined when they pushed Republicans out of power a year ago.”
I’d laugh if I could stop crying.
October 19th, 2007 at 6:34 pm#9 Comment by StratRat — October 19, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
What surprises me still is the MSM doesn’t even want to connect the dots with all these people.
Why should this surprise you? The MSM is comprised of huge corporations. The pundits that work for them do not really have a free reign to say what they choose. They follow the corporate line or they are no longer with the corporation.
There is no “connecting the dots” possible here. We are being sold the coprporate message in the form of talking head entertainment.
October 19th, 2007 at 6:49 pm#6 Comment by VerbalKint — October 19, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
Whatever happened to real journalists in this country? Have aliens from outer space replaced them with idiots?
No. Paid actors reading the corporate script.
October 19th, 2007 at 6:55 pm#8 Comment by dim wit — October 19, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
What kind of creative literary license are the authors of this article taking?
“…creative literary license?” You give them far more credit than they deserve. Reading a teleprompt or writing someone elses thinking does not involve any creativity at all. Simply having no soul is the only requirement. (They sold it to their corporate employer long ago.)
October 19th, 2007 at 7:02 pmArtful – I guess that will work for some — I think the scheming, devious liar, Fagin, in Oliver Twist was called the “artful dodger.”
October 19th, 2007 at 7:08 pm#18 Comment by Starve-A-Bush_Feed-A-Beaver — October 19, 2007 @ 12:41 pm
“Chimp Fluffing”
Great description! Not too long ago a President got in big trouble for being involved with that.
October 19th, 2007 at 7:12 pmbigfoot: “Frankly, there was not much strong public support for this program, and there hasn’t been much outcry since it has not passed.
The people did reject SCHIP. If there has been much outcry from the people, it would have passed. Simple as that.”
Where did you get this idea? Here’s the latest poll on the issue with the question posed:
CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. Oct. 12-14, 2007. N=1,212 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
“As you may know, President Bush vetoed a bill passed by Congress that would create a program to spend 35 billion dollars to provide health insurance to some children in middle-income families. Do you think Congress should vote to create that program by overriding Bush’s veto, or do you think Congress should vote to block that program by sustaining Bush’s veto?”
Override Veto: 61%, Sustain Veto: 35%, Unsure 4%
This poll looks to me like the people would like congress to override Bush by almost two to one. What makes you think “the people” have rejected SCHIP?
October 19th, 2007 at 7:13 pm#54 Comment by Marie — October 19, 2007 @ 7:08 pm
Artful – I guess that will work for some — I think the scheming, devious liar, Fagin, in Oliver Twist was called the “artful dodger.â€
Perhaps for the 24%ers. The Times was using artful in a positive way, building up the president. For Fagin it was a grudging negative compliment with nothing truly positive about.
October 19th, 2007 at 7:18 pm#47
As for the “overwhelming supportâ€: Polls are primarily about how the question is worded, not the question itself. It’s easy for people to fall into a false sense of security if the polls seemingly support their argument, without thinking the whole thing through.
So, what you are indicating is that the poll takers purposely slanted this poll? Or did they do it out of ignorance?
What you fail to grasp is that the CONCEPT of helping children is the issue here. How you pay for it is secondary, and not part of this poll. This question accurately measures the will and empathy of the people polled. But then, you being a conservative are short in the empathy area and shouldn’t be expected to grasp that. Pity.
October 19th, 2007 at 7:29 pmBigfoot, you seem to be under the impression that Americans don’t want government-run healthcare. I’m not sure where you got that idea, but if you go to Pollingreport.com and click on healthcare issues, you find that Americans don’t share your paranoia about “creeping socialism.” Here’s just one example, a poll basically asking if Americans would like a single-payer plan.
CBS Poll from 9/14-16/07:”Which do you think would be better for the country: having one health insurance program covering all Americans that would be administered by the government and paid for by taxpayers, or keeping the current system where many people get their insurance from private employers and some have no insurance?”
One Program For All:55%
October 19th, 2007 at 7:29 pmCurrent System:29%
Combination (vol.): 3%
Neither (vol.): 4%
Unsure: 9%
“So he can get his way,” like a child throwing a tantrum. This is the “leader” of the free world? Unbelievable. Gross. Dangerous. IMPEACH!
October 19th, 2007 at 7:52 pmHere’s what’s so annoying about a poster like bigfoot. He posts this: “First off, let me thank you for your graciousness. I do my best to state my points without being nasty and resorting to obscenity like so many do.”
And then, he proceeds to make a bunch of sweeping statements about how people have rejected government-managed medicine as if these were facts. I respond by citing two separate polls, including the actual question asked, which indicate the exact opposite of what he says, and he just ignores it. He just stares off into space evidently hoping nobody will notice that facts don’t support his sweeping statements. He’s not really here to debate a point. He’s here to present the dogma of his conservative religion. No facts can penetrate the fog of this dogma.
October 19th, 2007 at 7:59 pm#61 Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — October 19, 2007 @ 7:59 pm
Regarding Bigfoot you said:
He’s not really here to debate a point. He’s here to present the dogma of his conservative religion. No facts can penetrate the fog of this dogma.
And of course you are right. The difference between conservatives and Progressives is in their psychological makeup. George Lakoff nails it perfectly. It is essentially the difference in parental outlook and belief. It is the strict father ideology vs the nurturing father ideology. The SCHIP debate shows this plainly. Do you take care of people (kids) or thrust them on their own whether they can make it or not. Conservatives do the latter and justify their stand on costs or fear mongering. Bigfoot is doing that. Read his comment #12 where he says:
and as it stands, the proposed expansion of a children’s health program to those who aren’t “children†and to those who can afford their own health care,
This is fear mongering, though cloaked as legitimate argument. He postures as a “strict self righteous parent” who won’t stand for any posibility of helping anyone. They have to make it on their own with no help from him (or anyone else if he can help it, by golly!)
So, yes Col Jack, no facts will ever change his mind. His parent ideology is based in his fear and is not open to change. You simply can’t discuss facts with “parent opinion,” especially when it comes from a frightened little boy trying to show the world (on this board at least) how right he is, by showing everyone here how wrong they are.
October 19th, 2007 at 8:37 pmMerlin, I guess my tongue-in-cheek reference to Fagin was lost in cyberworld.
October 19th, 2007 at 8:44 pm#63 Comment by Marie — October 19, 2007 @ 8:44 pm
Merlin, I guess my tongue-in-cheek reference to Fagin was lost in cyberworld.
Push harder on your cheek?
October 19th, 2007 at 8:56 pm“We won this round on SCHIP,†claimed White House spokeswoman Dana Perino.
The cold-skinned creatures residing in the White House are such incredible jack-offs. Lil’ George “The Decider’s” latest approval rating is 24%. That sounds familar. Oh, yeah — Nixon’s approval rating in August 1974, the month he slithered out of office, was….yep, you guessed it…24%. These jack-offs have “won” nothing. Their plane is careening ever closer towards the ground with smoke spewing from the engine, yet they’re happy ’cause they’re “winning.” Clueless, cold-blooded lizard people.
October 20th, 2007 at 1:43 amLike millions of other people in this country I thought the Dems would clean house, starting a new era of progressive government. Big mistake! Bush is vetoing everything they want to do. (Limbaugh bragged about it a few days ago, happy that “we are at least stopping them from doing things.” (Paraph).)
October 20th, 2007 at 10:25 amThe Dems could accomplish WHATEVER they wanted. They could pass ALL their bills. If they only had the balls to stop the funding of the war immediately. Just saying, “MR. PRESIDENT, NO HONEY, NO MONEY!”
But it’s clear now that they are more interested in politics than in people’s will anyway. It seems that now they care less about stopping the war.
We need a THIRD PARTY, with some decent leadership.