Kristol: Iran Is ‘The Only Real Threat’ To Success In Iraq
Kristol: Iran Is ‘The Only Real Threat’ To Success In Iraq
Today, on Fox News Sunday, Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol declared that the U.S. was close to victory in the Iraq war, arguing that the “only” concern left for the U.S is dealing with alleged Iranian involvement in Iraq:
We’re winning in Iraq. That is the absolute crucial precondition to having success in the broader fight against Islamic jihadism. … And I think we are going to have to be serious about dealing with both their intervention in Iraq — which is now the only real threat, I think, incidentally, to relative success in Iraq — and their nuclear program.
Watch it:
While Iran may be causing some violence in Iraq, there are more pressing “threats” to “success.” A National Intelligence Estimate released in February concluded that Iranian involvement was “not likely” to be a major driver of violence. An August McClatchy analysis found that the majority of suicide bombers in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia, not Iran.
In reality, “Iraq’s complex and overlapping sectarian, political and ethnic conflicts, as well as the difficult security situation continue to hinder progress in promoting economic development, the rule of law and political reconciliation,” according to Special Inspector General For Iraq Reconstruction Stuart Bowen.
Kristol used his allegations of Iranian involvement in Iraq to push for more war in the Middle East, claiming, “There has to be the credible threat of force” with Iran. He was quickly rebuked by Juan Williams:
Do you think there’s any question about this — whether or not we have credible military force? We are the superpower in the world. … The thing is we have our military stretched beyond all bounds, and you seem to want to engage in other wars. I don’t know why you feel this way.
Bill Kristol will readily lower his standards for the Iraq war in order to implement his hawkish, neoconservative agenda.
Transcript:
KRISTOL: We’re winning in Iraq. That is the absolute crucial precondition to having success in the broader fight against Islamic jihadism. So Senator Obama was wrong about that.
And he’s wrong about Iran. Senator Obama’s professed position –he’s given speeches on this — is that Iran should not be allowed to have a nuclear weapon. He’s not comfortable with an Iranian nuclear weapon.
And yet we’ve been pursuing diplomacy for four years, with our European friends — just two days ago, Ali Larijani, the Iranian negotiator who — when you go to the Europeans, they say, Well, Ahmadinejad is crazy, but he doesn’t matter. Khamenei, who knows? But Larijani — he’s a reasonable man. We can work with him. He resigned.
He was forced out. It looks like the Iranian government is going for the full hard line on their nuclear program. And I think we are going to have to be serious about dealing with both their intervention in Iraq — which is now the only real threat, I think, incidentally, to relative success in Iraq — and their nuclear program.
WALLACE: When you say getting serious, I think a lot of our viewers are going to say, Kristol thinks there’s going to be a war.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
KRISTOL: I think there could be a use of force. September 6th, 2007, when Israel used force against Syria to prevent them from developing nuclear weapons with North Korean aid, is going to go down in history, I think, as the date where we got a glimpse of the kind of future we’re dealing with.
If diplomacy works, that’s great. There has to be the credible threat of force both on the nuclear issue and, I think much more short-term, though — I agree with Brit on this. I think the short-term question is does Petraeus think he needs a little help across the border to secure our successes in Iraq.
And if so, I think the president will give it to him. We can’t let them just build IEDs and train Iraqis with impunity across the border.
WILLIAMS: Look. Do you think there’s any question about this –whether or not we have credible military force? We are the superpower in the world.
The thing is we have our military stretched beyond all bounds, and you seem to want to engage in other wars. I don’t know why you feel this way.
KRISTOL: I want to win the war. I want to support the military who are fighting over there who are being killed…
WILLIAMS: Oh, wait a second.
KRISTOL: … who are being killed by Iranian weapons.
WILLIAMS: Just a minute. You mean when it came to the surge, you wanted to defend the surge. Why don’t we defend the fact that for five years we’ve been involved in a war that’s cost us life and limb, and we have — we’re totally out of control?
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Kristol said it…
October 21st, 2007 at 12:21 pmso it must be true.
Logan’s Law: The dumber the right-winger, the smarter he thinks he is.
October 21st, 2007 at 12:22 pmKristol” “I think the only smart thing to do now is bomb more women and children in another country” (smile/smirk)
October 21st, 2007 at 12:28 pmWK is functionally nuts.
October 21st, 2007 at 12:42 pmHas Billy ever been right about anything?
He’ll never need a colonoscopy; he’ll always have a clear view thereof.
October 21st, 2007 at 12:42 pmIf the US invaded every single country in the world, it would not be enough for this man. If there were no more countries left for him to invade, Kristol would start beating the drums for war with Mars.
October 21st, 2007 at 12:43 pmgotta have that sunday kristol fix, don’t ya TP?
…
never thought i’d be wishing that putin has more influence than
an american citizen… but, lord, i hope putin can stop this thing…
our luck, the cowboys would hafta just “show him”…
is there ANYTHING can stop it?
October 21st, 2007 at 12:46 pm?
Little Bill has never been correct. Today is no exception.
The only real threat to “success” (whatever that is ) in Iraq is Bush, his government, Blackwater, and the Congress.
October 21st, 2007 at 12:48 pmWhat’s amazing is these hawks believe that Iran will just roll over and play dead once they are attacked. Kristol is so short sighted in his quest for world domination. Actions DO have consequences and the only option that the US has is an air strike on “suspected” targets and we see how well that “shock and awe” worked in Iraq.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:02 pmWe will again be in Iran before Bush and Cheney leave office. Kristol is just one of the tools. Unfortunately neither the media nor the public learned anything. The psychopath in chief and his vice have destroyed this country.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:02 pmChildren like, kristol, have gotten bored with their Iraq “toy”(which never really did, what they thought it would) and now, want to blow up a new “toy” for their amusement.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:09 pmTurn off Fox news and make both Fox and Kristol irrelevant.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:20 pmFOX is State Sponsored TV
October 21st, 2007 at 1:22 pmThe president of the US cannot declare war. Only Congress can declare war. But, the Constitution has never stopped bush and cheney before so it won’t this time either. Impeach Cheney, NOW.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:23 pmGuido – I would like to add to your comment… Fox is State sponsored propagandatv.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:24 pmBesides which, Kristol is dumber than an insect.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:26 pmTwo imperial quagmires aren’t enough for these idiots… the third imperial quagmire must be the charm…
October 21st, 2007 at 1:28 pmLogan’s Law: The dumber the right-winger, the smarter he thinks he is.
Brilliant.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:28 pmThere is nothing like oii-nazi imperial aggression, nothing in this world…
October 21st, 2007 at 1:29 pmI’m sure it’s entirely coincidental that Michael Ledeen is saying the same thing in the Wall Street Journal on the exact same day.
The heightened PR offensive begins today.
$119/bbl oil will be achieved in 2-3 months, with or without an actual attack on Iran.
The Gas Gouge continues as long as the Big Oil gang holds the reins. The Shock and Awe attack on Iran seems pretty likely since the Bushies already refused an Iranian offer to kill their nuclear power production facilities, per an article in the latest Esquire.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:34 pmKristol: Iran Is ‘The Only Real Threat’ To Success In Iraq
…and Russia Is ‘The Only Real Threat’ To Success In Iran
…and China Is ‘The Only Real Threat’ To Success In Russia
Somebody stop these nuts.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:36 pmYou know what happens when we bomb Iran? Pevez Musharraf’s government falls. And suddenly the Pakistani nuclear weapons, COMPLETE WITH MISSILES and a vigorous development program, falls into the hands of Islamic extremists.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:36 pmIn exchange for a potential Iranian nuclear bomb some time in the future, we’ll get multiple missle launched nuclear weapons right now.
And what do we do then? Bomb Pakistan?
It won’t be a ‘war’ on Iran–it’ll be a spasm by a hobbled, disgraced former world power.
The Ministry of Truth has spoken!
October 21st, 2007 at 1:53 pmBill Kristol is reading from the PNAC manifesto pages.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:54 pmThe chickenshit, chickenhawk, warmonger says it’s true, it is wrong. Kristol hasn’t been right about anything his enitre life.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:55 pmSo far, no “Kris-Troll” comments.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:59 pmYeah, the Turks are about to invade in the north and the Syrians are about to expel over 1M Iraqi refugees and if those buttinski Iranians would just go away, everything would be fine.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:04 pmMethinks there is a mad dash to attack Iran before it becomes completely united with Russia and Putin’s “soul”.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/24/summit.russia.dougherty/index.html
Iran and Russia just signed a treaty. And Russia is building Iran’s Nuke plant. And how often do you hear about this in the media? Never. It’s always about Iraq.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:07 pmNow that stability is gaining hold in Iraq, Iran IS that only destablizing force in the region (Syria having been recently bombed by Israel has been chastined once again).
October 21st, 2007 at 2:07 pm# 10, trizza,
[What's amazing is that these hawks believe that Iran will just roll over and play dead once they are attacked.]
————————————————————————————
Trizza,
The hawkish Neocons are known to always be wrong…They predicted that we will be received as liberators, with flowers in hands by the liberated Iraqis.
They predicted Iraq will not be like Viet Nam.
They predicted that cost of the war will be just few billions of dollars.
They predicted that oil will be cheaper after we invade Iraq…etc..etc..
And Bill now predicts that Iran is going to be an easy one.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:09 pmIran is so strong that Bill cannot imagine what the response will be if Iran is attacked.
It will be another big goof by the Neocon planners.
Kristol and his ilk can’t wait to nuke Iran and Syria on Israel’s behalf. These people are TRAITORS to the American people. Kristol is a foreign agent:
The flight officer at Minot AFB knew he had just released a flight with live nukes. The flight officer at Barksdale AFB knew he was in receipt of a flight live nukes. What happened next?
A two star general responsible for the AF region got a phone call. This “general” arranged for two “unnamed” officers to “report” the incident to Gannett and we are off to the races.
Keep in mind the next step. The Military Times cannot print ANYTHING without it being vetted by an officer. Either a full colonel or a brigadier. With a review of this post you will find that no fewer than four generals were involved in the order to get the missiles mounted on the B52 and no fewer than three in ANNOUNCING the event to the world.
This is mutiny. This is brass against brass. The senior officer who vetted the story for release knew he was “covered” by still higher ups [...] The Military Times, a division of Gannett media group, was ORDERED to release the story of the B-52 Nukes. Somebody from Washington DC with many stars gave that order. Somebody with so much juice that they knew they would survive.
The cabal is not popular with the US military. I will suggest that this is hope and that hope is good. The US military are what stand between us and martial law. Every officer signs his commission with the statement to uphold the US constitution. What if most of them do?
http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/
WMR has learned from military sources on both sides of the Atlantic that there was a definite connection between Israel’s OPERATION ORCHARD and BENT SPEAR involving the B-52 that flew the six nuclear-armed cruise missiles from Minot Air Force Base in North Dakota to Barksdale. There is also a connection between these two events as the Pentagon’s highly-classified PROJECT CHECKMATE, a compartmented U.S. Air Force program that has been working on an attack plan for Iran since June 2007, around the same time that Cheney was working on the joint Israeli-U.S. attack scenario on Iran.
Command and control breakdowns involving U.S. nuclear weapons are unprecedented, except for that fact that the U.S. military is now waging an internal war against neo-cons who are embedded in the U.S. government and military chain of command who are intent on using nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive war with Iran.
CHECKMATE and OPERATION ORCHARD would have provided the cover for a pre-emptive U.S. and Israeli attack on Iran had it not been for BENT SPEAR involving the B-52. In on the plan to launch a pre-emptive attack on Iran involving nuclear weapons were, according to our sources, Cheney, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley; members of the CHECKMATE team at the Pentagon, who have close connections to Israeli intelligence and pro-Israeli think tanks in Washington, including the Hudson Institute; British Foreign Secretary David Miliband, a political adviser to Tony Blair prior to becoming a Member of Parliament; Israeli political leaders like Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu; and French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, who did his part last week to ratchet up tensions with Iran by suggesting that war with Iran was a probability. Kouchner retracted his statement after the U.S. plans for Iran were delayed.
http://winterparking.blogspot.com/2007/10/wayne-madsen-report-air-force-refused.html
October 21st, 2007 at 2:15 pmTwo things:
1. What a tough guy
October 21st, 2007 at 2:16 pm2. Where’s the mandatory American flag lapel pin?
T H E
E N E M Y
O F
P E A C E
M I C H A E L
L E D E E N
Ledeen’s ideas are repeated daily by such figures as Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. His views virtually define the stark departure from American foreign policy philosophy that existed before the tragedy of Sept. 11, 2001. He basically believes that violence in the service of the spread of democracy is America’s manifest destiny. Consequently, he has become the philosophical legitimator of the American occupation of Iraq.
Now Michael Ledeen is calling for regime change beyond Iraq. In an address entitled “Time to Focus on Iran — The Mother of Modern Terrorism,” for the policy forum of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) on April 30, he declared, “the time for diplomacy is at an end; it is time for a free Iran, free Syria and free Lebanon.”
With a group of other conservatives, Ledeen recently set up the Center for Democracy in Iran (CDI), an action group focusing on producing regime change in Iran.
Quotes from Ledeen’s works reveal a peculiar set of beliefs about American attitudes toward violence. “Change — above all violent change — is the essence of human history,” he proclaims in his book, “Machiavelli on Modern Leadership: Why Machiavelli’s Iron Rules Are as Timely and Important Today as Five Centuries Ago.” In an influential essay in the National Review Online he asserts, “Creative destruction is our middle name. We do it automatically … it is time once again to export the democratic revolution.”
Iraq, Iran and Syria are the first and foremost nations where this should happen, according to Ledeen. The process by which this should be achieved is a violent one, termed “total war,” a concept pioneered by the 19th century Prussian general, Karl von Clausewitz in his classic book “On War.”
Ledeen’s take on this idea is wedded to ideology. In summarizing his book “The War Against the Terror Masters” on the American Enterprise Institute Web site, he writes: “We wage total war because we fight in the name of an idea, and ideas either triumph or fail … totally.” In his reckoning, force is the only reliable strategy to enforce our ideology on our enemies. In the same summary he claims, drawing inspiration from Machiavelli: “We can lead by the force of high moral example … [but] fear is much more reliable, and lasts longer. Once we show that we are capable of dealing out terrible punishment to our enemies, our power will be far greater.”
http://www.alternet.org/story/15860/
A fellow at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, Ledeen holds a Ph.D. in History and Philosophy from the University of Wisconsin. In 1983, on the recommendation of Richard Perle, Ledeen was hired at the Department of Defense as a consultant on terrorism. While being investigated as a security risk by his supervisor, Noel Koch, it was learned from the CIA station that Ledeen had been carried in Agency files as an agent of influence of a foreign government: Israel.
After having his access to classified materials blocked he ceased working there. He next appeared at the National Security Council as a consultant working with NSC head Robert McFarlane. Ledeen was involved in the transfer of arms to Iran during the Iran-Contra affair — an adventure that he documented in the book “Perilous Statecraft: An Insider’s Account of the Iran-Contra Affair.” A prominent member of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) board of governors and the Center for Security Policy (CSP), he advocates “total war” inline with the “Grand Strategy for the Middle East” which advocates “Iraq as the tactical pivot, Saudi Arabia as the strategic pivot and Egypt as the prize.” Ledeen is presently a serving member on the China Commission and, with the support of DOD Undersecretary for Policy Douglas Feith, he has since 2001 been employed as a consultant for the Office of Special Plans OSP). He is involved in the handling of classified materials and has high-level security clearances. He was also involved in election rigging of the 2000 election.
http://www.nogw.com/warforisrael.html
October 21st, 2007 at 2:21 pmFAULTY MEMRI
HUDSON INSTITUTE…
Meyrav Wurmser, an opponent of the Oslo peace accords and a central neoconservative figure.
In 1996 she helped write “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm†and advised then-Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “to work closely with Turkey and Jordan to contain, destabilize, and roll-back†regional threats, help overthrow Saddam Hussein, and strike “Syrian military targets in Lebanon†and possibly in Syria proper. Coauthors of the report included Richard Perle, David Wurmser, and Douglas Feith.
She also cofounded with Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israeli military intelligence, the Middle East Media and Research Institute (MEMRI).
According to her Hudson Institute bio, Wurmser “helped to educate policymakers about the Palestinian Authority two-track approach to ‘negotiating peace’ with Israel: calling for peace in the English press and with western policymakers while inciting hatred and violence through official Arab language media.â€
Although it describes itself as “non-partisan,†MEMRI–which has offices in London, Washington, Jerusalem, and Berlin–has frequently been accused of being nothing more than a propaganda outfit of Israeli intelligence.
According the Guardian, which dug up deleted pages from MEMRI’s web site through the internet archive, “Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri’s website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three–including [Yigal] Carmon–are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence. Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army’s Northern Command Ordnance Corps.â€
The Guardian’s Brian Whitaker also reported: “Although Memri claims that it does provide translations from Hebrew media, I can’t recall receiving any. Evidence from Memri’s website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status.
Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises ‘the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel’. That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.â€
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1394
October 21st, 2007 at 2:25 pmComment by plunger
Have you ever heard of proper attribution?
The way you’re cutting and pasting, it looks at first like these are your comments. If you’re going to spam, at least do a competent job of it.
Please!
October 21st, 2007 at 2:28 pmBarfly:
Those lines underneath what appear to be jumbled words, those are indicative of what are called “links for attribution”
Again – you appear to be the only one confused by them.
Roll your mouse over one and click – see what happens.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:30 pmCan someone on the right explain this to me? GWB admin has admitted that the intel was wrong on Iraq. They were wrong on WMDs, wrong on al Qaeda, wrong on troop strength needed, wrong on the cost, duration and response. Wrong on every facet that they discussed. Why should anyone believe that they are right on Iran? Why don’t folks on the right seem to care? It’s not a partisan debate. You can’t just back your party because they’re your party. Nowhere in your normal life would you continue to support a person/group when the stakes are so high and they’ve been so wrong in the past. Some intelligent discussion of the issues is required, but no one is discussing them. There is serious intel stating that Iran is not the major player in Iraq. Similarly there’s intel saying Iran is not close to a nuclear weapon. The threat, if there is one, is not imminent. The cost of this war will not be small. The reaction will not be minor. Why doesn’t anyone on the right seem to care? Why is war the only answer regardless of the question, or the validity of the question?
October 21st, 2007 at 2:31 pmVirtually EVERYTHING posted above by me is assigned to a link FOR ATTRIBUTION.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:32 pmComment by plunger — October 21, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
I’m not confused by them. But I never read entire books while on the comments section of this site. The links alone, with possibly a short snippet would be much better then reproducing entire swaths of text. Few will read this. I’m not the first to tell you this. You’re doing a disservice to the cause you support.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:33 pmThose lines underneath what appear to be jumbled words, those are indicative of what are called “links for attributionâ€
Again – you appear to be the only one confused by them.
Roll your mouse over one and click – see what happens.
Comment by plunger
Andyou pasted your own “headline” over the Alternet original…
And looking at the original, you’ve re-edited it for no apparent reason…
And at the beginning, you don’t start with quotation marks…
Must I go on?
October 21st, 2007 at 2:36 pm“But I never read entire books while on the comments section of this site. ”
Comment by Dave C
So you’ll never know if he’s posting unattributed bullshit mixed with his own commentary…
October 21st, 2007 at 2:38 pmRove, Kristol and the rest of the co-conspirators rely on those in the blogosphere to demand brevity over truthtelling.
Everything posted above serves to explain the criminality of Kristol and his co-conspirators, in context.
The ENTIRE TRUTH is revealed, for those who wish to take the time to read – and connect ALL the dots.
No one wants to admit the magnitude of the CONSPIRACY. Everyone who insists on being brief is preventing the entire constellation from being revealed.
Do you see the relationship between Kristol’s actions today, and the agenda of the Hudson Institute? Did you know the Hudson Institute even existed? Do you know Myrav Wurmser sleeps with one of Cheney’s top advisors on the middle east? Where are the articles revealing the agenda of the Hudson Institute? How is Ari Fleischer’s recent propaganda effort tied to the broader conspiracy?
Do you care?
October 21st, 2007 at 2:40 pmVirtually EVERYTHING posted above by me is assigned to a link FOR ATTRIBUTION.
Comment by plunger
Like your bullshit title? Where is that posted, and why didn’t you go with the original?
October 21st, 2007 at 2:41 pmBarfly:
Dave is not confused. You are the ONLY one confused.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:41 pmDo you care?
Comment by plunger
Thanks for changing the subject. I can now ignore you – until you post more crap.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:42 pmDave is not confused. You are the ONLY one confused.
Comment by plunger
Why did you ax the original title and substitute your own? That’s plagiarism.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:43 pmBarfly:
Get a life.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:45 pmAll I’m saying is do a more competent job of it next time, Plunger; don’t substitute or re-edit stuff if you want to be considered credible.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:46 pmMy favorite part about any comment by Sweet Billy Kristol is how it is always delivered with that arrogant half-smirk. What an a-hole. He honestly believes what he says to be true and beyond any possible doubt or questioning by others.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:48 pmBarfly:
Get a life.
Comment by plunger
I was here before you came, and I’ll be here after you’re long gone.
But when you step in here, you bring your “a” game. None of this lazy cut and paste work, or I’ll rub your nose in it every time I see it.
Just ’cause my name is barfly, don’t think I’m too lazy to call you out – again.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:50 pmWhen Lay was on the stand and under oath, wouldn’t it have been great fun to ask him all about his meetings with George Bush Sr. and Dick Cheney prior to 9/11?
Wouldn’t it be great to ask him if the faux California Energy Crisis which his company manufactured just prior to the 2000 elections was actually a scheme cooked up by he and Poppie Bush to compel Americans to install some oil experts in the White House? But what was to be Lay’s reward? After all, he was GW’s largest contributor and best friend of Poppie Bush. Poppie never planned on Enron going bust, and that’s when things started to fall apart.
Wouldn’t if be nice to learn the details of how Lay and Cheney were divvying up the oil fields in Iraq on a big map, even before 9/11?
Wouldn’t it be enlightening to hear that Lay knew for a fact that 9/11 was going to happen as the pretext for the war plan which he clearly had knowledge of prior to 9/11?
Why would you sit around countless energy planning meetings dividing up the oil fields of Iraq in advance of 9/11 unless there were a plan in place to make it possible?
Such a plan would by necessity be a war plan, and this war plan was actually in place prior to 9/11.
Surely any good war plan requires at its core a starting point, a trigger if you will that provides a good “cover story” to implement it. Clearly you can’t just go around invading countries without a good reason…you need to be attacked first, then retaliate.
Was 9/11 simply part of the war plan?
Why wouldn’t it have been?
You can’t hit the “GO” button without a pretext.
9/11 was the pretext for the invasion of the Middle East – all by design.
CAN YOU SAY COVERUP?
COMMENT BY PLUNGER
October 21st, 2007 at 2:56 pmDual agendas
The Israeli government and AIPAC have denied that they engaged in any criminal operations involving classified Pentagon documents about Iran. Sharansky said, “There are absolutely no attempts to involve any member of the Jewish community and any general American citizens to spy for Israel against the United States.” He observed that the investigation of the Pentagon’s Office of Policy staff most likely stemmed from an inter-agency rivalry within the US government.
For his part, Ledeen told Newsweek that the espionage allegations against Franklin, his close friend, were “nonsensical:’ Ledeen and other neoconservatives see the investigations as instigated by the State Department and the CIA to undermine the credibility of neoconservatives and to obstruct their Middle East restructuring agenda, particularly regime change in Iran.
Given the depth of congressional bipartisan support for Israel and close ties with right-wing Israeli lobbying groups like AIPAC, it’s unlikely that the investigations will provide the much-needed public scrutiny of the dual and complementary agendas that unite US and Israeli hardliners. Feith’s policymaking fiefdom inside and outside of government continues to drive US policy in the Middle East with no evidence that these radical policies are increasing the national security and welfare of either the United States or Israel.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Central_Asia_watch/Is_Iran_Next.html
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/Artstudents.htm
Most people in Washington know the truth of Israel’s causative role in Iraq, but they won’t speak out for fear of AIPAC. Many American Jews know that this is true, but are scared of the implications. I can understand that, but it doesn’t make denial any less dangerous or inadequate as a response. Consider the response of this Jewish American who exposed AIPAC in 1992:
“In 1992, AIPAC member Harry Katz phoned the President of AIPAC, David Steiner, to offer contributions. Steiner proceeded to make several claims, including [that he was] negotiating with then-candidate Bill Clinton over who would be Secretary of State, and had already “cut a deal” with Baker for more aid to Israel.
Unknown to Steiner, Katz taped the phone call and gave the recording to the media, worried that AIPAC’s influence had grown to dangerous levels.
Following the release of transcripts of the phone conversation, David Steiner was forced to resign the Presidency of AIPAC.”
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/AIPACClinton.html
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story.php?sid=01270621553
The Tyranny Of Israel Over America
The mass expulsion of Israeli spies was a response to Israel’s failure to co-operate in preventing the massacre of thousands of people in New York on September 11, 2001.
What country has hundreds of spies, moles, and collaborators working for a foreign government in the US for over 30 years with impunity?
According to former and present knowledgeable news reporters, some recently interviewed by the FBI, federal agents point to the Israeli secret police Mossad as the organizer and promoter of the espionage network.
Over the past year, in one of its biggest spy investigations ever, over 100 FBI agents from city offices throughout the country have been interviewing thousands of potential witnesses, informants and suspects in connection with Israeli espionage in the United States.
One former news reporter for an influential British weekly told me that he was interviewed twice, over twelve hours, about mass media collaboration with the Mossad in transmitting ‘disinformation’ and pro-Israel propaganda as “newsâ€.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:00 pmI like plunger’s title better than the original. THAT is not plagiarism. PLAGARISM is ANYTHING MANN CUNTER writes. NOW THAT IS PLAGARISM.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:02 pmDo NOT forget the U.S.S. LIBERTY
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
October 21st, 2007 at 3:08 pmVideo testimony on USS Liberty
October 21st, 2007 at 3:08 pmhttp://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html
.
Agreed: Fire is a threat to one’s personal safety.
Agreed: It is important to have the best trained and out fitted fire department.
b> U E S T I O N:
What kind of person insists on keeping a fire cheif in a position, who keeps insisting that the only thing left to fight fire is to start more fires, so that the firemen can have on the job experience. What kind of society tolerates this. What kind of person insists on keeping the fires going and in that is what’s being supportive of the firemen.
.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:14 pmI’m constantly amazed that Kristol continues to get a microphone and airtime.
How often does one have to be proven flat wrong before his reputation as a pundit suffers?
The only explanation that makes sense to me: it’s a deeply-buried clandestine plot of the liberal media. they discovered that the best way to acheive their leftist agenda was to give the tighty-righties the chance to tell teh world what they think. Most normal people would then recoil in horror.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:27 pmHow often does one have to be proven flat wrong before his reputation as a pundit suffers?
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — October 21, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
Well, he was on Fox. Their assessment of a guest is how well his/her ideology fits with the Conservatives, not the accuracy of the speaker’s thoughts. Facts & accuracy are Liberal concepts.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:35 pmTime for regime change in Kristolville…
Too bad these jackasses couldn’t find the courage to fight back against bullies in school, and have carried their emotional scars into our world.
Worthless schmucks, all.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:46 pmI think that by “success in Iraq”, the neo-cons mean “control over Iraq’s natural resources”, which has been frustrated by the persistent insurgency that will just not go away.
Of course, said “control” has also been prevented by the complete, utter incompetence this White House has displayed in almost every effort they have undertaken.
And more recently, by the Turkish parliament’s vote to allow their troops to launch raids into Iraqi territory.
That Kristol ignores Turkey’s move (the obvious, public, out in the open parliamentary vote) should be an indication to everyone that he is more interested in catapulting the propaganda than in making an accurate assessment of the situation in Iraq. Everyone, except for the blind Bush followers.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:48 pmThank you Mr. Kristol for stating the AIPAC/hard right Israeli view.
We will get back to you. Now take your medications.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:52 pmConservatives simply don’t calibrate against reality. So to them Kristol might well be right. If what he says fits their ideology, then it is right.
I have stopped believing that war with Iran is imminent. The administration and its lackeys have been trying to gin up public support for this war for awhile now, but their attempts seem to come and go in waves without any definitive momentum building. My suspicion is that the military is privately telling Bush no. It is frightening to think that this sort of standoff might be happening. It would be a measure of how far this country has fallen under Bush were the military leadership to be actively resisting his orders.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:55 pmI see no point in writing a new post for this one. I’ll just use this link to one of my previous arguments.
October 21st, 2007 at 4:00 pmhttp://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/17/bush-warns-of-world-war-iii-with-iran/#comment-4127093
That about sums it up.
I see no point in writing a new post for this one. I’ll just use this link to one of my previous arguments.
That about sums it up.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
It might sum it up for you. To me you’re just regurgitating stuff you read on the net from the GWB administration. You’re relying on their translations of Ahmadinejad’s words, though there are many that say that he has not said the statements attributed to him. You also are ignoring intel to the contrary that says that Iran is not close to having a nuke. So you’re basically repeating the GWB fallback position on Saddam… “he’s not a threat right now but may be in the future, so on the basis of my determination of his intent I believe he should be attacked/removed”. It’s all clear cut once you ignore all dissenting opinions. It’s also quite possible that the nuclear war you fear could be started by attacking Iran, with or without Iran having nukes. The world has been fooled before by believing the GWB mantra, why should the world buy this bull$hit this time?
October 21st, 2007 at 4:08 pmPatriot,
Your take on the volatile situation in the Middle East is about as grounded in reality as your views on global climate change (or as you called it, “Gore’s theory”).
“Let’s stop Iran before they decide to kill us all”? Oh, puhl-eeze. With the same irrational argument, you could call for an invasion of Brazil -you know, before they decide to kill us all with their nuclear program… put down that bog, or that kool-aid, or both…
October 21st, 2007 at 4:10 pmHardly surprising to hear more lies from that vile Straussian PNACcio.
October 21st, 2007 at 4:21 pmShall we list (for the Nth time) all the things that the Bush administration has been wrong about, so far? The most obvious one being, of course, Iraq’s WMD.
They haven’t given us any hint that their “intelligence” on Iran’s nuclear intentions now is any more accurate than their “intelligence” on Iraq’s WMD back then.
They have been so wrong, so often (so spectacularly wrong, assuming good faith on their part. Huge assumption, I know), that I see no reason why anyone should trust anything coming out of this White House.
October 21st, 2007 at 4:29 pmI was here before you came, and I’ll be here after you’re long gone.
But when you step in here, you bring your “a†game. None of this lazy cut and paste work, or I’ll rub your nose in it every time I see it.
Just ’cause my name is barfly, don’t think I’m too lazy to call you out – again.
Comment by barfly — October 21, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
I’m pretty sure plunger=ace. I’ve complained at length in the past about the way he spams the comments with his endless repetitive “posts” but he’s really not interested in any suggestion that his comments are inappropriate, off-topic and generally a pain in the arse.
At least they’re obvious enough in format to make it simple to skip them.
October 21st, 2007 at 4:36 pmThe only way to stop this madness is to drop Bush, Cheney, Hadley, Kristol, and all the other hateful neocons on Iraq and let them try to survive in the mess they have created. I suggest a nice area outside fo the green zone.
October 21st, 2007 at 4:49 pmI’m pretty sure plunger=ace.
Comment by gummitch — October 21, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
Yup. Exactly the same style. I just skip over the stuff. I might read it if a little more discretion and restraint was used.
October 21st, 2007 at 4:53 pmgkam:
October 21st, 2007 at 4:53 pmCool idea but can we make it a Fox “reality” show? Kill your tvs!!!
What I would suggest for those who feel strongly about a subject (strongly enough to take the time to scour the web for information, then paste all that information here in long-winded posts), is that they should start their own blog. It’s free, and they could post whatever they wanted, any time they wanted.
Then all they would have to do here is post a two-liner and a link. The rest of us would be mercifully spared all the Zionist conspiracy theories.
October 21st, 2007 at 4:59 pmThe chickenshit, chickenhawk, warmonger says it’s true, it is wrong. Kristol hasn’t been right about anything his enitre life.
Just like Bush has destroyed everything he touches his entire life. They make such a lovely couple, Bush and Kristol, that is. They both are chickenshit chickenhawks.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:03 pmI’m just doing the best I can to answer all of these arguments. You complain about me just listening to whatever President Bush says, but I don’t usually listen to President Bush. I formed my own opinion about Iran based on what Ahmadinajihad has said. It is usually very difficult to get a non-biased source of information due to all of the anti-Bush rhetoric.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:07 pmGregor Samsa: I would advocate going into Brazil if: 1. They had a nuclear program, 2. Their leader was an outspoken opponent of the U.S., 3. Their leader was a religious fanatic dead set on Armageddon, and 4. If it wasn’t for that pesky Monroe Doctrine. Also, the current belief is that Iraq’s WMDs are in Syria because we gave them way to much time to escape. I’m sure if we turn over enough rocks we’ll find some of the WMDs or WMD plans you’re saying don’t exist.
The Logic of NeoCons:
Hume & Kristol believe we need to start World War III to prevent World War III.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:07 pmI suggest a nice area outside for the green zone.
Comment by gkam — October 21, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
Then we could start a pool on how long it would take these cowards to soil their pants. I’ll put my money on 60 seconds.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:08 pmIran and Russia just signed a treaty. And Russia is building Iran’s Nuke plant.
Phew… I feel better already. We won’t bomb Iran because Russia would come to Iran’s defense and Russia has nukes along with long range missles. And Putin is just as crazy as Bush. Remember? Bush looked into Putin’s eyes and saw his own reflection.
North Korea has one “questionable” nuke and we are not making any attempts at bombing North Korea. Iran just signed an “insurance policy” with Russia.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:09 pmAlso, the current belief is that Iraq’s WMDs are in Syria because we gave them way to much time to escape. I’m sure if we turn over enough rocks we’ll find some of the WMDs or WMD plans you’re saying don’t exist.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
Well, Patriot, I think this pretty well proves that you DON’T think for yourself. This is just regurgitated propaganda without any support in reality whatsoever. And it also happens to coincide precisely with propaganda spewed by Bush administration proxies.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:11 pmThen we could start a pool on how long it would take these cowards to soil their pants. I’ll put my money on 60 seconds.
Comment by VerbalKint — October 21, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
You get points for brevity.
How is your comment going to help expel the criminals from the White House and restore our Constitution?
On topic?
October 21st, 2007 at 5:14 pmI’m sure if we turn over enough rocks we’ll find some of the WMDs or WMD plans you’re saying don’t exist.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
Or your brain. You’re a fool.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:17 pmComment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
You’re prepared to support the U.S. starting what could be WWIII on the basis of supposition & guesses? That’s less then they had when they attacked Iraq. At least then they had falsified intelligence. The bar seems to have been lowered as a result of that clusterphuck. That doesn’t make sense.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:20 pmKristol should step in front of a speeding bus. He’s worth more dead than alive.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:25 pmtwice nothing is still nothing
October 21st, 2007 at 5:27 pmHe’s preaching to the choir.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:30 pmAnd from the photo, it looks like they have left as well.
“I’m sure if we turn over enough rocks we’ll find some of the WMDs or WMD plans you’re saying don’t exist.”
Comment by Patriot
And on the label, it will say: Made in USA
October 21st, 2007 at 5:32 pmHow much wealth do these murderous giggling idiots need with their illegal war profiteering?
October 21st, 2007 at 5:35 pmI ask and beg the troops:
PLEASE BEGIN SUPPORTING YOUR OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION.…
Dave C, if you go to the original post I made, which is what I’m being bashed about, I said I am opposed to a war in Iran. I was saying surigical strikes would be best.
Coffins Draped with a Flag, an “Insurance policy” with Russia? I wasn’t even talking about Russia. I was talking about the psychopath in charge of Iran. Ahmadinajihad’s comments about ending the world were why I said we should take him out.
Or your brain. You’re a fool.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:40 pm81. Lefty Patriot
What? That doesn’t even make sense.
Kristol should step in front of a speeding bus. He’s worth more dead than alive.
83. Lefty Patriot
Resorting to odd and pointless statements? You want someone to off themself becuase you disagree with them? and to think, I considered you my main opponent when I started on here.
Jane Harmon said that this resolution has been voted on twice before in Congress so it is nothing new. Apparently it didn’t pass either time and Harmon didn’t go into why, i.e., veto, filibuster or simply lacked votes. She did say the timing was poor this time and I will agree to that.
This isn’t the first time that Kristol has tried to blame Shia Iran for acts comitted by Sunni’s, this time Sunni’s from Saudia Arabia — the same Saudia Arabia that provided most all of the 9/11 hijackers. For Kristol and his ilk, facts are optional and he proved it once again this morning.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:42 pmPatriot sez:
I get a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers who ask me: “If the whole justification for the Iraq invasion was such a scam, why didn’t the administration just plant a few WMDs in Iraq?
The above post by Patriot is why. The WMDs were never found because they’re being hidden by Syria and Iran…coincidentally, the next target on our administration’s hit list.
Why manufacture support for the lie…when the lack of support can itself be used to perpetuate the lie?
October 21st, 2007 at 5:45 pmPatriot sez:
Patriot, you really need to stop talking now.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:46 pmTripMaster Monkey, why should I stop talking? I am just responding to attacks on my previous posts, my intelligence, and my beliefs. I’ll stop talking as soon as everyone else stops attacking anything and everything conservative.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:48 pmPatriot sez:
Because your inane comment about being opposed to war but in favor of “surgical strikes” shows your idiocy even more clearly than your comment about the WMDs did. My suggestion was for your benefit.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:51 pm“facts are optional”
Comment by DallasNE — October 21, 2007 @ 5:42 pm
Almost correct.
For RePugniScums facts are lies!!! Truth is “Inconvienvent” and Facts are the Enemy of Facists, RePugniScum, A$$holes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
October 21st, 2007 at 5:51 pmDave C, if you go to the original post I made, which is what I’m being bashed about, I said I am opposed to a war in Iran. I was saying surigical strikes would be best.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 5:40 pm
Your opinion is based on GWB talking points… Iran is close to having nukes, Ahmadinejad’s words have been properly translated, Iran is an imminent threat, an attack on Iran won’t cause WWIII. I disagree. Attacking Iran will not lessen the risks. It will bring Russia & China into the picture and increase worldwide risk.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:53 pmDoes anyone want to bet this missing nuke will show up as a fake attack from Iran some where?
October 21st, 2007 at 5:54 pmStory:
Minot AFB Clandestine Nukes ‘Oddities’
TripMaster Monkey, how is being opposed to war with a sovereign nation but in favor of taking out terrorist factions within the country insane? I’m in favor of striking Al Qaeda in Iran and if necessary, taking out Ahmadinajihad. That may lead to war, but his people oppose him.
October 21st, 2007 at 5:57 pmName one thing that Bill Kristol has been right about, for that matter, that the PNAC has been right about and I might listen to the chickenshit, chickenhawk, warmongering, coward.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:03 pmBlaming a Third World country — Iran — for Bush’s defeat in Iraq is QUITE pathetic. It’s the Iraqi people who are responsible for Bush’s defeat, not Iran.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:03 pmDave C, I’m sorry if you disagree with me. I believe Ahmadinajihad is a threat that must be eliminated and that Russia and China will not risk a war with the U.S. over it. You believe Ahmadinajihad is not a threat or not a significant one and that Russia and China will attack the U.S. if we strike at Iran. Let’s just agree to disagree on this point. It is not definitive that either scenario will happen. Arguing with you further will just be pointless.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:04 pmTripMaster Monkey, how is being opposed to war with a sovereign nation but in favor of taking out terrorist factions within the country insane? I’m in favor of striking Al Qaeda in Iran and if necessary, taking out Ahmadinajihad. That may lead to war, but his people oppose him.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
GWB admin designates Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps as terrorists and that is a go-ahead to bomb Iran??? Seriously? That’s enough? Wow. It’s like the war in Iraq sets the bar for preemptively attacking countries. It is now ok to attack on the basis of supposed intent. And you support this, though you either discount the risk of this causing a world war or you’re just not willing to discuss that possibility. If Iran poses such a great risk, worldwide, why is the U.S. the only country that sees that?
October 21st, 2007 at 6:06 pmPatriot sez:
Actually, I said it was “inane”, but yes, it’s plenty “insane” as well.
Which “terrorist factions” would you be referring to? The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps? ou realize that this is a part of the standing military of a sovereign nation, right? You do realize that any “surgical strike” on them would be interpreted (and rightly so) as an act of war?
Al Qaeda in Iran and Achmadinijad? You’re all over the map, Patriot! The talking points don’t really work when you jumble them all up like this…
Probably the most effective way to pump up Achmadinijad’s popularity would be to attack Iran…but that probably didn’t occur to you, did it?
October 21st, 2007 at 6:08 pm“Patriot” — even if Bush takes out the leader of Iran, there will be YET ANOTHER dictator who television makes you frightened of. Too much money is being made off war to let it stop in Iraq, so another “scary dictator” will need to be manufactured to keep the profits going. After we take out the next bogus “threat” to America — Iran — you will be calling for war against Hugo Chavez. You are being manipulated by television.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:08 pmDave C, I’m sorry if you disagree with me. I believe Ahmadinajihad is a threat that must be eliminated and that Russia and China will not risk a war with the U.S. over it.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 6:04 pm
The point is yours to make therefore you should support it. Show some support that Iran poses an imminent threat. Even GWB has lessened his criticism of Ahmadinejad by saying that he must be attacked because of his intent to gain knowledge of nukes.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:09 pmStephen Harper may be a threat. Canada has lots of oil.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:10 pmcorsair, I don’t recall us pulling out of Iraq. It is not a defeat unless you in fact are defeated. So far, we have booted Sadaam, created a democratic government, and worked towards ending sectarian violence. I consider that well on the way to a win. Sure, we’ve been in Iraq a long time, but that is to be expected. We’ve been in Germany and Japan since WWII ended. We had to stay in Germany for the government to work because the Soviets didn’t want democracy in Germany. It’s the same in Iraq. Iran and a few other countries don’t want democracy in Iraq because they are afraid their people will start asking questions. We have to handle Iran to get democracy in Iraq, just as we had to handle the Soviets in the Cold War.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:11 pmComment by plunger — October 21, 2007 @ 2:21 pm
Come on Ace, can’t you just post a synopsis of what you want to say and link to the article you cut and paste into this blog. This was tedious when you were Ace and is still tedious when you a plunger.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:13 pmWe have to handle Iran to get democracy in Iraq, just as we had to handle the Soviets in the Cold War.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
So Syria is next on the list. Justify one war with the last war.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:13 pmPatriot sez:
Did you get that one of one of those cheesy inspirational posters?
Refusing to acknowledge the defeat doesn’t change the situation.
OK…just so we’re on the same page, what constitutes a “win” in Iraq? Give us your definition, since the administration can’t seem to supply one.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:15 pmPatriot — we’re not dumping $12 billion per month in Germany and Japan. We’ve already spent TWICE on Iraq what we spent to rebuild Japan after WWII. Iraq is not Japan. Bush is not Truman and America is NOT the “good guy” in Iraq.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:16 pmSo far, we have booted Sadaam, created a democratic government, and worked towards ending sectarian violence.
Comment by Patriot
Thanks for the laugh Patriot. I always get a good chuckle out of your posts. You are a perfect example of the kool-aid drinker.
You can actually say that Iraq is a democratic government with a straight face? The only one of the three “successes” you are touting that is true is getting rid of Saddam. The other two are just fantasies in your pea brain.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:16 pmYeah patriot, please tell us how you can “win” an occupation of a country against the wishes of it’s people?
October 21st, 2007 at 6:18 pmDave C, I’m sorry if you disagree with me. I believe Ahmadinajihad is a threat that must be eliminated and that Russia and China will not risk a war with the U.S.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:19 pmcomment by patriot
maybe Russia and China will risk a war with US. Is that a chance we should take? And in the eyes of most around the world, China and Russia should attack our terrorist behavior. Do you think it is really proper we continue to invade/massacre/occupy others over lies? Who are we to say others can not have weapons while we own the biggest stock pile?
Dave C, I’m sorry if you disagree with me. I believe Ahmadinajihad is a threat that must be eliminated and that Russia and China will not risk a war with the U.S. over it.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 6:04 pm
You may be right patriot. Russia won’t have to risk a war with the US. All they will do is to encourage China to call in the debt we owe them. That will cause a complete and total collapse of the economy of the United States. End of story. We won’t have the money to attack Iran much less have the money we would need to bring our soldiers home from Iraq.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:21 pmIn a further disaster in a Poland led by conservatives, too few ballots were available at the polling stations. Poll results suffer major delays/
Wow, whatever party is ruling in Poland must have gotten their hands on the RNC playbook.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:22 pmWow, lot’s of arguments on this one. First off, The U.S. is the most powerful nation in the world and is therefore obligated to police the world responsibly. About Hugo Chavez, yes he should be taken out, but there are more pressing issues. About Iran, yes, we would probably end up at war with Iran, but if I’m right, we need to stop the terrorists and nuke production. If your right, we need to strike now to prevent Iran from gaining the nukes. Yes, the point is mine to make. Ahmadinajihad is a ruthless dictator that oppresses and kills his own people, he has a vocal hatred of America, and he has expressed intention to get nukes. That is if he doesn’t already have them. Those three reasons should be enough to want to stop him. If it comes to war, so be it. He must be stopped. Russia and China won’t get in on it, or at least not overtly. Russia knows what war with the U.S. would do to it, and China knows a war with the U.S. would destroy its economy. Now to answer the random, pointless one. Sure, Canada has lots of oil, but why invade them for it? We can just wait until their Socialized Healthcare wears down to the point that they need docters from the U.S. We can just let them pay in oil.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:24 pmAt least the gloves are off & Patriot has stopped pretending to be a liberal.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:27 pmEvery empire in human history felt it had an “obligation” to police the world. And every empire crumbled by over-extending itself militarily. It happened to the Soviets, the Third Reich, the Roman Empire, and … what will be … the FORMER American empire. It will be the “patriots” who will lead America to ruin while waving the flag.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:33 pmWow, lot’s of arguments on this one. First off, The U.S. is the most powerful nation in the world and is therefore obligated to police the world responsibly.
This once was probably true. But thanks to your pal George, it no longer is. We have a broken military that can’t even occupy another country with any effectiveness. And if anything happens here at home, heaven help us all.
And the US is NOT obligated to police the world. Because by police you mean be the aggressor. I would like to think that the US would use it’s influence to try to broker peace rather than to broker war. But if that ever happened, your buddies in the Military Industrial Complex would lose out on all those billions.
In closing, here are some words of wisdom:
October 21st, 2007 at 6:33 pm
So far, we have booted Sadaam, created a democratic government, and worked towards ending sectarian violence.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:34 pmComment by Patriot
Don’t you mean we have completely destroyed a country, run off 4 million and killed another 1 million, have become the most hated terrorist country of the world, our treasury robbed, our infrastructure crumbling while much wealth is redistributed to corporations…
Tell me, as we have been lied to how many times to go to war, for how mahy years how can you continue to believe this PNAC crowd?
Due to the amount of arguments this is attracting, I will answer the relevant or non redundant posts in order.
TripMaster Monkey, to me a win is a tactical or moral victory. We are winning both tactically and morally in Iraq.
corsair, did you take inflation into account?
bilbobaggins, think of it this way. Does a democratic government have to be corruption free? No, it does not. Just look at America. We’ve had corruption for decades. What is important, however, is that the people have some say in what happens to them now.
had enough, yes we have the biggest stockpile of weapons. But, we do not put people in charge of those weapons that want to end the world or pursue a holy war.
Bilbobaggins, what do we owe China? All of the money they ever loaned us was money we used to trade with them. The reason they loaned us money was to keep us going through rough patches so their economy could continue. If our economy collaspes, so does theirs.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:34 pmYes, I took inflation into account. See Frank Rich’s column today in the NYT. He quotes two economics professors who said the money spent “rebuilding” Iraq is TWICE what we spent rebuilding Japan. On another note: You can’t have a “moral victory” in Iraq when the hearts and minds are not with you. The Iraqi people want us OUT and will continue to kill us as long as we’re there.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:36 pmbilbobaggins, think of it this way. Does a democratic government have to be corruption free? No, it does not. Just look at America. We’ve had corruption for decades. What is important, however, is that the people have some say in what happens to them now.
You are dreaming if you think the people in Iraq have any say over what is happening to them. If they did have any say we would be gone. The people want us out of their country. If Iraq is a democracy and the people have some say in their government, then why are we still there.
The people of Iraq want us gone. The Iraqi Parliament wants us gone. The only people who don’t want us gone are the stooges we installed as their leaders who are getting very rich off all the corruption that is going on. As long as the riches continue, they won’t ask the US to leave, no matter what the people and the Parliament want.
If you call that a democracy, you are an ignorant fool.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:41 pmBilbobaggins, what do we owe China? All of the money they ever loaned us was money we used to trade with them. The reason they loaned us money was to keep us going through rough patches so their economy could continue. If our economy collaspes, so does theirs.
Comment by Patriot
Are you really that stupid? Where do you think the billions we are spending on Iraq comes from? The money fairy? We are borrowing that money from China. And China can call in that debt any time they want. You really are very uneducated. Perhaps you should do a little more research before you spout your stupid mouth off.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:44 pmhad enough, yes we have the biggest stockpile of weapons. But, we do not put people in charge of those weapons that want to end the world or pursue a holy war.patriot
Oh really? I think you just described George Bush to a T. And I have to say it scares the shit out of me.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:46 pmDave C, you thought I was a liberal? Wow, I thought I was being a bit more obvious than that.
Corsair, the Third-Reich collasped because Hitler was a psychopath that didn’t have the loyalty among his people or the tactical skill to back up his actions. The Soviet Union collasped because the economic system of socialism is fundalmentally flawed. The Roman Empire collasped because 1.government excess by the emperors that drained the coffers and caused massive disertion and 2. A new religion spread that destabalized the Roman Empire and allowed for the invasions by the barbarians.
bilbobaggins, it is true our military has weakened. Fewer and fewer are joining, and public support has been turned against the war. Government waste prevents us from affording the equipment necessary for a war. I am not saying the administration is not at fault. They have not clearly stated why we’re in Iraq, but that does not mean we shouldn’t be. As for policing the world, who else will do it? The U.N. is too ineffective and no one else is stepping up. So to reference debate, what is your counter plan?
had enough, I think some of what I said before is useful, but I need to reiterate. Government excess is destroying our economy, the tax system is to screwed up to make enough money, and corruption, on both sides, prevents us from getting anywhere.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:47 pmhad enough, yes we have the biggest stockpile of weapons. But, we do not put people in charge of those weapons that want to end the world or pursue a holy war.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:48 pmWe have put terrorist fascist liars in charge that are following PNAC….they are doing empire building and most of the world knows this. What I can not understand is why you and the other 19% can not see this.
Thanks for the history on past human empires. Every single one of them failed because of delusion (Hitler), economic inability to finance their satellite countries (Soviet Union/Roman Empire), and a worn-out military (British Empire). All three apply to BushCo today. We are on a path to ruin if America continues electing psychopaths like yourself to Washington.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:50 pmcorsair and bilbobaggins, as much fun as I’ve had discuusing this with you, I have stuff to do. I’ve spent all day on TP and need to spend some time with my family. I’ll just close by saying, I believe we should be in Iraq. I believe we should do whatever is necessary to continue the spread of freedom and democracy. And I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions. No matter what we say, we will not change eachothers viewpoints. I would be glad to have a friendly discussion about U.S. policy, but the constant arguing is starting to get to me. See you whenever I get back on.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:51 pmPatriot sez:
So, a win is a victory? That’s not even complex enough to be termed a circular argument, Patriot. Try again.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:52 pmYou aren’t in favor of “freedom.” If “freedom” was your goal, then you’d be against American support for the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
October 21st, 2007 at 6:53 pm“I’ve spent all day on TP and need to spend some time with my family.”
Is it just me or is this weird?
October 21st, 2007 at 7:03 pmI believe we should do whatever is necessary to continue the spread of freedom and democracy.
That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long while. U.S. presence in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with freedom or democracy. The GWB govt itself has no interest in freedom or democracy for Americans, they sure as hell don’t care about the same in Iraq. So if you start with such a faulty premise the rest is sure to be blather.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:03 pmIs it just me or is this weird?
Comment by dbadass — October 21, 2007 @ 7:03 pm
He’s just clocking out. Posting that shite is like a job.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:04 pmpatriot is a gibbering monkey, without any ability to think things through. he is a waste of time and carbon. I feel bad for his family; he is hurting them far more than he knows by supporting the destruction of democracy in the United States.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:05 pmIt is absolutely mind boggling how anyone such as Patriot can continue to buy the big LIE. The lie to go to war has been going on for decades and continues.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:09 pmIt is absolutely mind boggling how anyone such as Patriot can continue to buy the big LIE. The lie to go to war has been going on for decades and continues.
Comment by had enough — October 21, 2007 @ 7:09 pm
He’s selling, not buying. I don’t know what’s in it for him though.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:19 pm“Patriot” probably works for a defense contractor or one of the other “national security” industries that survive only if Americans are afraid.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:34 pmTripMaster Monkey, how is being opposed to war with a sovereign nation but in favor of taking out terrorist factions within the country insane?
Would you feel the same way if Russia took out the terrorists known as Bush and Cheney and their cabal? Don’t you realize that the Iraqi’s consider Bush and Cheney a terrorist? Just look what the “Destroyer” did to Iraq. Just look at all the dead Iraqi children and babies and pregnant women (abortion by bombing). No true Christian would support this illegal war in Iraq. Where in the new testament does it say that Jesus supported killing people? I need to know chapter and verse… the words of Jesus.
October 21st, 2007 at 8:12 pmPost 139 was directed at Patriot and not TMM, who is a true patriot and not a phoney patriot like ‘Patriot’.
October 21st, 2007 at 8:13 pm“Patriot” is simply a poor speller,
October 21st, 2007 at 8:17 pmhe’s trying to type “Parrot”…
Nevar – funny.
October 21st, 2007 at 8:24 pmSee you whenever I get back on.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 6:51 pm
PLEASE don’t come back anytime to soon! {:-)
October 21st, 2007 at 8:25 pm“…to me a win is a tactical or moral victory. We are winning both tactically and morally in Iraq.”
Comment by Patriot
They are doing neither. Get a better grip of Darth Cheney’s cucumber there “patriot.” He has been feeding you crap for wayyy too long. There is NO, repeat NO ability to fight a non-entity AQI, via militarisitc terms, so your pie in the sky tactical victory can never exist, nor should have been undertaken via militaristic means.
Morally, OH FU(KING PUHLEEEZE, you MUST be joking or jerking off, cause you have to be high to think that the inappropriate force over there is doing ANYTHING morally correct. Hmmm let’s see, invading a soverign nation on a lie, killing hundreds of thousands of its citizens in a lie and unlawfully, and raping and pillaging, or at minimum setting in motion the ability for others to rape and pillage Iraq as WELL as funds setup for its reconstruction, once again IMMORAL.
Why do you hate America????
I can’t wait to hang you along with the other TRAITORS in the WHITEHOUSE.
Hemp or nylon, which do you prefer?
October 21st, 2007 at 8:29 pmHere’s some fuel for the flames…
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-10-20-iran-rocketattack_N.htm
Iran will not take a hit by the US without retaliation against our troops. Our military will be sitting ducks if Cheney, I mean, Bush attacks Iran.
October 21st, 2007 at 8:29 pmThanks, CDwaF
How are ya?
Go Richardson!
“I’ve spent all day on TP and need to spend some time with my family.â€
LOL
“Ive spent all day with the family and need to spend some time on TP…”
LOL
October 21st, 2007 at 8:29 pmRaven – I’ve done both.
I’m fine. Today was a beautiful Fall day in PA. See you at the Zoo.
October 21st, 2007 at 8:31 pmCome on.It’s not about a war.They only call it that to make it sound logical (to some).
October 21st, 2007 at 8:55 pmThe bottom line as always is money.They have to sell all their bombs and missles.
This is the big push for the big sale.The management is rooting for the sales team to get the job done and bk is only one of many on the job.
So little time left to fulling engage the entire military machine.
Then the profits really soar.
Don’t get distracted.
All the dialog is just that, dialog. Or you may look closer and see it’s really only noise.
1)Ahmadinejad is NOT a dictator, ruthless or otherwise. The Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is the supreme ruler of Iran. Ahmadinejad was democratically elected, and will probably lose his position because he’s not in charge. He can’t do a thing without the ayatollahs.
Patriot, you committed the sin of expediency. Mr. A is useful, you think, because he flamboyant and abrasive. But you damage your argument’s worth for the sage of vividity.
2) Try this on for size. We start the bombing of Iran with a nuke. Immediately afterwards, six Russian ICBMs are launched from central Asia. Vladimir Putin vehemently denies launching them, and Osama Bin Ladenn announces that members of Al-Qaeda infiltrated a missile group and launched them in retaliation for the inhuman attack.
New York, Washington and LA are destroyed , and what’s left of the US has the choice of attacking Riussia and ending Western Civilization, and laying down and dying. (OBL announces he’s broadcasting from outside Singapore, so that gives another bad choice.)
And of course Putin might be lying.
You’re horribly worried about Iran getting one bomb, when Pakistan has bombs, China has bombs, North Korea has bombs, and Russia has thousands and thousands of bombs. And Pakistan has been selling nuclear secrets to the highest bidder, and the Russian military is impoverished, lax, and bears no love for the United States.
You come up with ’scare’ scenarios and you feel good about them, because you think that really, there’s no danger. Well, there is. There’s plenty of ways we could end up dead.
October 21st, 2007 at 9:00 pmSo, in Kristol’s mind, it doesn’t make any difference if the majority of Iraqis approve of attacks on American troops in Iraq? Or if 90% of Iraqis want us out ASAP? Or if they see our reasons as a desire to take their oil?
If there was no Iran or al Qaeda, doesn’t that still leave 95% of the attacks on our troops?
Isn’t there more evidence that the USA is meddling in Iraq than Iran meddling in Iraq. And it is on their border, not our border. If Iran invaded and occupied Mexico all based on a pact of lies, I think we would feel our security threatened —–to say the least.
October 21st, 2007 at 9:35 pmHe’s a media whore. Period. Unfortunately, he has everything to gain from war with Iran–millions and millions in investments in Blackwater, et al. Scum should be treated as scum.
October 21st, 2007 at 9:38 pmTo all who hoped I was gone for good: Sorry, but I’m back. I was just reading what you guys said about me. Very funny. Because everyone seems to read what I post, I thought I would post some of the rules.
4. Blog Community Rules.
You agree to:
• Respect other Bloggers – please do not threaten, insult, abuse, intimidate or harass other Blog users.
You agree not to:
• Post any content to the Blog that is unlawful, racist, hateful, libelous, defamatory, obscene, or that intentionally discriminates against or harasses particular individuals or groups.
I do not remember everything I posted, but I do not think I posted anything directly insulting to anybody, and if I did, I apologize. I have tried to show respect for your beliefs and characters, so please do the same for mine. When I came on here, I thought this website was about discussing politics and “Thinking Progressively”, but most of the stuff I see is just insults and muck slinging. I was telling the truth when I said I would be glad to have a friendly discussion about the issues. It appears few if any have decided to take me up on the offer. I would ask, “So, if my plan is so bad, then what is yours?” but the response would probably be to just mock me or call me petty, childish names. Hopefully, some of you will eventually realize how pathetic it is for grown people to be sitting at their computers eagerly awaiting a chance to insult and smear someone who just came along to discuss politics. I will continue to post when I see the need, but from now on, I’m only going to respond to real arguments.
Goodnight TP,
October 21st, 2007 at 9:48 pmPatriot
“How is your comment going to help expel the criminals from the White House and restore our Constitution?
On topic?”
Comment by plunger
My God! Doesn’t he realize that only more old spam can save our democracy?
Your “on topic” comment gets the Ironic Comment of the Day Award.
Congrats.
October 21st, 2007 at 10:00 pmPatriot,
You do not have a clue what is happening in Iraq. You need to drastically change your sources of information (you probably won’t). And you have a strange definition of “winning” and “morally”.
What does this mean: “I will continue to post when I see the need” ?
October 21st, 2007 at 10:19 pmI will continue to post when I see the need, but from now on, I’m only going to respond to real arguments.
Goodnight TP,
Patriot
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 9:48 pm
Hmmmm…sounds awfully similar to something our friend O. Bigfoot said recently……
I, alone, choose what I find important to respond to, and what I ignore, just as you do.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 1, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
October 21st, 2007 at 10:23 pmAwww what’s the matter patriot pussy, comment #149 wasn’t good enough for you to conside true discussion? Or did pbg just stick a fork in your widdle little piece of french cake? Go to bed now patriot, mommy says you need your beauty sleep, after all, it takes much energy to dress up and put lipstick on your Republipigs every day. Remember, no matter how hard you try, and how much lipstick you use, it is still a pig, and will alwyas be a pig. If you would stop feeling like everyone owes you fu9king soapbox, and listen to constant rumble emanating from the internets, for your idol to be beheaded. And every clutch and clawing of your hand to remain attached to the Rovian mothership will only make the noose go around your own neck also.
When stupid people continue to cling to a sinking ship, it only makes the ship go down that much faster.
Good job “patriot” (and i use the term ever so loosely in your regard.)
October 21st, 2007 at 10:24 pmpatriot, I do not consider you even a human, let alone a sentient being capable of discourse. So, the rules you pasted do not relate to non-humans, ergo, do not relate to you. So, take your monkey and go to beddie-bye, because we are here trying to wrap our brains around the damage done to our great country by your criminal bretheren, while you and your troll ilk are only interested in obsfiscation of the issues.
October 21st, 2007 at 10:30 pmDave C, I’m sorry if you disagree with me. I believe Ahmadinajihad is a threat that must be eliminated and that Russia and China will not risk a war with the U.S. over it. You believe Ahmadinajihad is not a threat or not a significant one and that Russia and China will attack the U.S. if we strike at Iran.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 6:04 pm
Actually the point I’ve been trying to make, and you’ve been trying to dodge, is that I see no evidence that Iran is a threat. And you’ve provided no evidence. You’ve repeated the Republican talking points but they’re as poorly supported as their reasons to go to war in Iraq. I’ve asked you for evidence since it’s your belief that Iran is an imminent threat and all you’ve done is repeat your unsupported beliefs. Somehow you think that’s a debate. It isn’t. You believe what you believe because you choose to, not because of facts.
October 21st, 2007 at 10:30 pm‘Patriot’ probably believed Iraq in 2003 was a threat when Kuwait, Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Iran, Syria, Jordan, U.A.E., etc. said Iraq was NOT a threat.
“Naturally the common people don’t want war…But it is always a simpe matter to drag the people along…all you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of PATRIOTISM and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in ANY country”.
October 21st, 2007 at 10:43 pm—–Hermann Goring—-
Bill…have YOUR family fight these GD wars ok. Oil is the word Bill…not jihadism. The US is out of line in Iraq. Our men and women are dying for the Dow…not democracy, not anything but Oil and an imperial president who is totally out of control. A war criminal Bill, a GD war criminal. Lay all your fancy plans for Iraq and Iran but you, Bill, go die for your bogus bullshit. Forget you slicky boy.
October 21st, 2007 at 10:55 pmDave C, I’m sorry if you disagree with me. I believe Ahmadinajihad is a threat that must be eliminated and that Russia and China will not risk a war with the U.S. over it. You believe Ahmadinajihad is not a threat or not a significant one and that Russia and China will attack the U.S. if we strike at Iran.
Comment by Patriot — October 21, 2007 @ 6:04 pm
And just how do you propose we eliminate him? Assassination? Have a Predator drone track him and bomb the hell out of him? Bomb selective targets in Iran to warn them not to proceed with a nuke? Milnet.com says that Iran has a total of over 800,000 members in its armed forces, including active duty and reserve. Suppose they send a couple hundrend thousand into Iraq to take on our forces. Who you gonna send over there to supplement our already worn out and weary forces? You gonna sign up?
Putin has already warned us to not attack Iran. Suppose we do, and we find out that while not directly fighting America, Russia is providing arms and other assistance to Iran. You gonna take on Russia, too? Or just pick up the hotline to Russia and tell Pootie-Poot to “stop it”?
October 21st, 2007 at 11:48 pmok – let’s see if i get this – the surge is working but the real problem is iran are interferring and supplying home-made bombs to so called al qaeda in iraq….so therefore iran = al qaeda….can anybody tell me when iran got involved in this mess? – where is the proof that they are giving bombs and training to militants in iraq? – so i guess that when kristol starts blleting about this he means,of course that the iranian govt are aiding and abetting,right? – i thought petraeus’mission was to eliminate al qaeda? – i don’t think i have heard him mention iran or even a possible pre-emptive (or is it preventive??) strike against iran…..and even if all this is true,shouldn’t the us army be trying to secure the border between the two countries if there are bombs and trained militants pouring across and attacking civilians and gi’s?…..i’ve been hearing the drums beating louder and louder to blow iran off the map but haven’t heard or seen one shred of evidence linking iran to the bedlam in iraq…..so if anyone has anything that says otherwise,then post it and let us all know
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:30 amComment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 3:04 am
Of course, there is no solid evidence of any of the mumbo-jumbo you tried to pass as reality.
And whatever little evidence there is (munitions that were maybe manufactured in Iran, or confessions obtained through “interrogations”), it is simply not enough to tie the Iranian government to the violence in Iraq. Some of the evidence is even disputed by the Iraqis themselves. It is far more likely that all this is propaganda being “catapulted” by the Bush administration, and that the situation in Iraq would be the same, with or without Iranian involvement.
Let’s not forget, this “intelligence” on supposed Iranian involvement in Iraq is brought to you by the same administration that gave you the non-existing Iraqi WMD, and the also non-existing Nigerian yellowcake.
Not to mention that the reason why American troops are dying over there is that they are over there in the first place, due to Pres Bush’s pigheaded decision to prolong the occupation of Iraq.
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:35 amComment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 3:04 am
Of course, there is no solid evidence of any of the mumbo-jumbo you tried to pass as reality.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — October 22, 2007 @ 3:35 am
Of course there is no solid evidence. BigOFoot-in-Mouth is a TROLL. He doesn’t NEED evidence. His purpose in here is to oppose anything that does not fit with the “conservative” agenda and to distract everyone in here to focus on HIM, in order to distract us from having a REAL discussion of the issues raised in the topic.
The topic for this thread is a PERFECT example. The topic is Media Putz William Kristol’s assertions that “Iran Is ‘The Only Real Threat’ To Success In Iraq.” Because he is a Media Putz (http://mediaputz.com/07/07/putz0719.html), Kristol NEVER explains what he means by “success.” And, to add to his Putziness, he NEVER provides evidence for his assertions that, “We’re winning in Iraq.”
EVERYTHING the BigOFoot-in-Mouth troll brings to this thread is done to SUPPORT Kristol’s spurious assertions. If he is brought to account for his lack of evidence, he will do something troll-like. Watch him. He does his troll-thing well, but he is a detriment to the TP site and needs to be removed.
Reporting him for abuse is the ONLY way to stop him. So, I’m asking you, Gregor, to report him. Thanks.
October 22nd, 2007 at 5:33 amThanks, Kristol. Is it any wonder? We all could have predicted this. – Eric Monse
October 22nd, 2007 at 6:05 amComment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 3:04 am
Oh, so now it’s Iran’s fault we can’t win the “war” in Iraq?
150,000 troops fighting maybe 3,000 “terrorists” (the rest are insurgents, per McClatchy) for 5 years and we STILL cannot win?
Why do you think the majority (insurgents) are fighting us? Oh, could it be that they don’t want us there, just as you wouldn’t want Russia here if they invaded?
You talk about Iran meddling in Iraq’s interests. What about the U.S. meddling in Iraq’s interests, playing global police (something candidate Bush said the U.S. didn’t need to be doing…and don’t give me the 9/11 changed everything b.s.) in a country that was no threat to us?
October 22nd, 2007 at 7:41 amhe Democrat Party is playing the same role as Iran with their reckless interference.
Comment by jdc — October 22, 2007 @ 8:32 am
Yes, none. it’s really a shame that the Democrats haven’t savaged the Repukes completely and gotten our troops home. jdc can continue to cheer the deaths of American troops as long as his antiAmerican values will let him; in the meantime, Bush and his cabal make billions in illegal profits, rape the treasury, and engage in mass murder and genocide, all the while being cheered on by the most pathetic of all americans, the rabid, brainless, bloodthirsty right wing. America’s downfall is happening infront ofour eyes, led by the GOP and bolstered by the ignorant, fearful cowards of the right. it won’t be reversed until progressives gain a strong foothold, otherwise, it’s over for democracy and freedom in the USA.
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:41 amKristol would only be useful to America if he were publicly flogged and then exiled. Then the people would see what he’s really worth: nothing.
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:54 am“…that make it difficult to achieve success in Iraq.”
Comment by jdc — October 22, 2007 @ 8:32 am
O.K., time is up for the miserably little troll. He has simply REPEATED Media Putz Kristol’s EXACT word – SUCCESS.
What does Kristol mean by SUCCESS? Little troll “jdc” can’t DEFINE it, because if he did, then the whiny little troll would be obligated to SHOW us ANYTHING from our current miserable situation in Iraq that would indicate that we can EVER achieve it.
He CAN”T and he WON’T because that isn’t his purpose here. He has come in here to REPEAT Kristol’s spurious assertions and create as much TURMOIL as he can, drawing as much attention to HIMSELF as he can. In that, he is just like his GOD, Kristol, the Media Putz.
UNDER THE BRIDGE, WHINY, NASTY TROLL!
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:13 amKristol’s opinions carry about as much weight (with thinking people who aren’t evil and who don’t have their heads stuffed firmly up their butts) as Dick Cheney’s “last throes” and similar inane comments.
October 22nd, 2007 at 9:23 am“Apparently, some of you don’t even support my right to express my opinion.”
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 9:54 am
Naturally, BigOFoot-in-Mouth didn’t record the rest of my post, so I will:
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 3:04 am
Of course, there is no solid evidence of any of the mumbo-jumbo you tried to pass as reality.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — October 22, 2007 @ 3:35 am
Of course there is no solid evidence. BigOFoot-in-Mouth is a TROLL. He doesn’t NEED evidence. His purpose in here is to oppose anything that does not fit with the “conservative†agenda and to distract everyone in here to focus on HIM, in order to distract us from having a REAL discussion of the issues raised in the topic.
The topic for this thread is a PERFECT example. The topic is Media Putz William Kristol’s assertions that “Iran Is ‘The Only Real Threat’ To Success In Iraq.†Because he is a Media Putz (http://mediaputz.com/07/07/putz0719.html), Kristol NEVER explains what he means by “success.†And, to add to his Putziness, he NEVER provides evidence for his assertions that, “We’re winning in Iraq.â€
Comment by hterrya — October 22, 2007 @ 5:33 am
And then, BigOFoot-in-Mouth proves my point. Before, he presented his crap, as his Media Putz GOD always does, as FACT. Now it is just an opinion. I told you progressives to watch him act troll-like. And the idiot did it ON CUE!
He does his troll-thing well, but he is a detriment to the TP site and needs to be removed.
October 22nd, 2007 at 10:12 amDo all of you on the left feel that folks should be publicly flogged and then exiled simply because thier personal beliefs don’t agree with yours?
Constitutional rights, indeed!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 10:04 am
Ah the troll hates someone’s OPINION, but HIS opinions are sacrosanct.
He does his troll-thing well, but he is a detriment to the TP site and needs to be removed.
October 22nd, 2007 at 10:18 amComment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 9:39 am
Yeah, it’s all Clinton’s fault. Because Bush’s cabinet are such incompetent hacks, they couldn’t double-check that information themselves.
Care to give me one of your “personal responsibility” inane speeches?
October 22nd, 2007 at 12:28 pmI’ll go you one better, Billy: the whole world is a threat to your twisted and pornographic ideology. There. What are you going to do about that?
What’s next: 2 + 2 = 5?
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:32 pmPlease, Gregor and xeno, do not respond to the trolls. Report their abuse. Ask that they be removed from the TP site, so that we can discuss the topic, not the trolls. Thank you.
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:57 pmLet’s see…that intelligence about Iraqi WMD’s and Nigerian yellowcake came straight from the Clinton administration…but I don’t see how that affects Iranian involvement in Iraq now.
Would you care to elaborate on the Clinton connection?
Thank you.
Hillary 08!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — October 22, 2007 @ 9:39 am
Then I wonder where the intelligence came from that resulted in Powell and Rice, pre-9/11, declaring Iraq a non-threat?
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:39 pmMaybe we hate Kristol not because his personal beliefs are different, but because the policies he has pushed for have resulted in the slaughter of over one million human beings, have been a tremendous boost for terrorism, and we are the ones who will have to pay the $2.2 Trillion pricetag.
And that is only just talking about IRAQ. You could more than double everything for the action he is advocating against IRAN.
If someone hated Hitler in 1940, would you criticize them for “hating someone because their personal beliefs were different”? Iran has not killed one million people. WE have.
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:44 pmYou guys keep talking about removing the “trolls” so you can have a discussion. It just looks like you want to remove anyone with an opposing opinion so you can insult the president without being countered. Basically, you want to remove people from a PUBLIC FORUM for their beliefs. Very few of you follow the rules, so I am assuming you never clicked on the Terms of Use link and read the rules. If you did, then you just want to ignore them. You talk about how we don’t provide evidence, but neither do you. The only reason you people get away with posting without evidence is because you are surrounded by people who neither call you on it, nor let others call you on it. If you truly wanted to discuss the issues, you would welcome everyone of opposing beliefs and not resort to childish insults when you can’t think of anything else to say. If you would just read and follow the rules, then the issues could actually be discussed in a progressive way. Just look at the name of the site, THINK PROGRESS. All I’m seeing from most of the people on here is insults. If this continues, you might as well change the name of the site to THINK INSULT.
October 22nd, 2007 at 5:29 pmThe topic is Media Putz Kristol’s parroting “conservative” talking points as a lead-up to a “pre-emptive” attack on Iran, exactly like the attack on Iraq, which is a complete disaster. So when Kristol says we are “winning” in Iraq, WITHOUT defining what he means by “winning,” the progressives on this thread call it what it is: BS!
When trolls come in under the guise of having a “discussion” and then DEFEND Kristol’s undefined, spurious, BS, the trolls get called on it.
It is natural to want TP to remove the BS-enabling trolls from the site to clear the threads of troll dung. I contend that this is the reason that TP added the “Report Abuse” Icon, so that the trolls can be removed.
I plan to continue to use the tools that TP offers us, with no regrets and no guilt.
October 22nd, 2007 at 5:51 pmI contend that they put the Report Abuse botton on there to allow people to report abuse. An example of abuse is breaking the rules. Something that is not an example of abuse is expressing one’s viewponts (without breaking the rules of course).
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:06 pmThe TP threads were filled with trolls, like the ones who have come back to distract us from the topic, before the new registration was imposed and the “Report Abuse” function was added.
Many of the progressive posters on the TP site threatened to leave permanently if the “troll problem” was not addressed.
Now, the trolls are back, focusing on themselves, repeating and defending the lies and distortions of “conservative”national figures, and distracting from the topic.
In this case, the topic is Media Putz Kristol’s warmongering on Iran, and ignorant, spurious claims that we are “winning in Iraq.” And the trolls have come in force to repeat Kristol’s lies and distortions. The so-called “viewpoints” of the trolls are merely regurgitation of Kristol’s lies and distortions.
October 23rd, 2007 at 6:47 amYes hterrya, and the “progressives” on here aren’t just regurgitating defeatist rhetoric, right? It seems to me that the conservatives have viewpoints that are in the minority here, and the “progressives” have the majority. According to the liberal belief, since conservatives are in the minority, they should be protected. Stop attacking the minority just because you hate them. Stop attacking people for doing things you do too. I have not seen any original ideas on here, and very few plans that actually cause progress. It seems when the word Progressive is used here, it means Liberal instead of someone who wants progress. Do not call someone a troll just because you disagree with them.
October 24th, 2007 at 5:59 am