Thank you
Hits

Hits,
I don’t understand the word “intelligence”. Anytime I see it employed as justification for an individual’s own sense of their superior thought I wonder how they wish to define the term. Based on neuroanatomy the cetacean brain is far more complex thus I quess these creatures are more intelligent than you or I. As to survival do you mean this in an evolutionary history context or a persoanl one?

Obviously morality doesn’t “exist” outside of us. And I don’t “presuppose” that it does. We have to come to an agreement about what it is. Your position just weazles out of the question with very cheap, sophomoric relativism.

Survival is trivial, hits. Ugly acts in the name of survival makes the remaining years you gain ugly. and you may die tomorrow.

Here is another formulation of the argument against torture: by torturing a helpless person, you make your life uglier than theirs. To put it another way, by torturing someone, you make yourself lower than your victim, and if you are acting as a representatve of a group, you make that group uglier and less worthy of survival that those whom you torture.

It becomes dramatically worse when the imminent survival of millions is not at stake–and worse still when you torture innocents. As a nation, we have done both. And we continue to do both.
An ‘intelligent’ soldier, concerned with survival may desert during a fight, leaving his comrades to die. And if that is ugly, so what? all that ‘honor’ stuff is just an esthetic judgment. True, but his fellow soldiers will exercise their esthetic sense by blowing his guts out and sticking his head on a pike.

You may be incredulous, but te survival of America is not absolutely important. America is a wonderful venture embodying the best ideals of mankind. But if we cease to be that–if we descend from Marcus Aurelius to Commodus and Heliogabalus–in short, if we act without honor–then the life of America becomes ugly too, and unworthy of support.

1. Hits admits that torture will not work in most instances but will on that rare occasion provide that nugget of information that is actionable. How cute Hits. Having been in he military and having been in law enforcement (as a prosecutor) I always want my people following up two dozen false leads because we used a tactic that would guarantee that the vast majority of leads were unreliable. OH, IDIOT HITS, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH LEADS ARE WHICH?

2. Hits is not a moral relativist, he is a survivalist. Read his post. He only understands intelligence and survival. Apparently, anything else goes. However, that is what leads to a lack of civilization. The theory that only self interest matters. By the way Hits, you may understand intelligence, but you certainly don’t have it.

3. We all know the Hits is a coward, he has admitted that he would break every civilized convention to torture for his survival. He will even break those conventions to gain that very rare nugget of intelligence that may have some value. I call that desperation from a little bed wetter.

4. My real take on Hits, the coward, is that he is frightened and scared.
Torture actually gives him the feeling of power and control that he actually lacks.

“We can then recall that primates, both nonhuman and human, most often engage in a-social behaviors when they are subjected to stress, and particularly to prolonged stress. Under these circumstances, we hunker down and engage in self-interested survival patterns, the default behavior of all creatures, and these often take forms that are antithetical to pro-sociality. One way to stack the deck in favor of morality, therefore, is to ameliorate the conditions wherein humans find themselves physically or emotionally impoverished, threatened,defeated, abused, humiliated, lonely, or insecure. Such conditions foster the dehumanization and demonization of those identified as the “cause” of our frustrations, allowing them to become targets of exclusion and brutality(11). Such conditions also render humans vulnerable to rigid fundamentalisms — many carrying a morality label— that activate our fear and greed in their promises of deliverance.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:6Hm1qEiUVnQJ:www.missouriwestern.edu/orgs/polanyi/TAD%2520WEB%2520ARCHIVE/TAD30-3/TAD30-3-pg6-21-pdf.pdf+third+order+concept+and+morality&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

Comment by Democrat Soldier — October 26, 2007 @ 12:22 pm

Very quietly, thanks to the Military Commissions Act.

I suggest that any of these politicians that suggest otherwise should be required to endure the POW camp portion of SERE.

Comment by Democrat Soldier — October 26, 2007 @ 12:19 pm

I think it happened on 24 once. That counts, right?

You’re not factoring the selective definition used by the current administration: Pres. Bush is the decider! He’s already decided that he’s never done anything wrong in any way, shape, or form!

How can anyone argue with the pernicious, twisted logic of Pres. Bush?

1) Get the person being tortured to agree to anything at all just to get the torture to stop. They’ll lie their a$$es off, just so you stop torturing them. Result: No uselful data at all.

2) The death of the person being tortured, because they didn’t give any info and you had to keep torturing until they died. Result: No uselful data at all.

All the US would have to say is: torturing works, because we got info from prisinor A and stopped the attack at .

Has anyone at all heard of any positive information being acquired at all from any US torture methods? Anyone? Anyone at all?!?!?

The fact of the matter is that torture does one thing, and one thing only. It proves that the US is just as sadistic an depraved as al Quaeda. Nothing more, nothing less.

Comment by AngryOne — October 26, 2007 @ 12:03 pm

Unfortunately, I don’t believe in employing torture on anybody. If I did, then I would suggest that anybody who’s fuzzy on the definition of torture be subjected to the “interrogation techniques” up for debate until they are clear on the term.

I suspect that anybody who has ever been on the receiving end, such as McCain, has a different perspective from the political bloviators.

Notice how this article makes no exception for “people we arbitrarily decide might be terrorists.” No one means no one.

For the details, see:
“Giuliani Flip-Flops on Waterboarding, Jokes About Torture.”

Comment by hits — October 26, 2007 @ 11:48 am

You might want to pay attention to a few key articles:

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Comment by hits — October 26, 2007 @ 11:54 am

It takes absolutely no imagination to compare your unwillingness to serve in the military with people unwilling to work for a living. You both feel that you should reap the benefits while others do the work. So socialism works for you though you despise it. That explains a lot about your posts… they scream self-loathing.

One people, one empire, one leader?

You are correct – but only from your limited perspective

Sheesh, Jake…that made even less sense than usual. You’re actually getting worse at this.

Seeing as how Shakey has been flummoxed again, I’m going to take this opportunity to grab some lunch. Hopefully, Jakers will be back on his feet again by the time I return.

Folks, don’t treat Jake too roughly in my absence…remember, he honestly can’t help himself.