Mukasey Calls Waterboarding ‘Hypothetical,’ Dodges Legal Question Of Whether It Is Torture
Mukasey Calls Waterboarding ‘Hypothetical,’ Dodges Legal Question Of Whether It Is Torture
In a written response to questions from Senate Democrats today, Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey refused to explicitly say whether he believed waterboarding to be torture. In the four-page letter, Mukasey called the interrogation technique “over the line” and “repugnant” on “a personal basis,” but added that he would need the “actual facts and circumstances” to strike a “legal opinion”:
Hypotheticals are different from real life and in any legal opinion the actual facts and circumstances are critical.
CNN’s Ed Henry notes that with his “facts and circumstances” hedge, “essentially Michael Mukasey is dodging the question of whether legally waterboarding is torture.” Watch Henry’s report:
Senate Democrats have said that Mukasey’s answer on the question of waterboarding and torture is crucial to their vote on his confirmation. “It’s fair to say my vote would depend on him answering that question,” Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) told reporters last week. Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) called it “the seminal issue.”
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), a judge advocate general in the military, has said that it shouldn’t be difficult for Mukasey to be clear on the issue:
If he does not believe that waterboarding is illegal, then that would really put doubts in my own mind because I don’t think you have to have a lot of knowledge about the law to understand this technique violates” the Geneva Convention and other statutes.
Time reported earlier today that if Mukasey “refuses to declare waterboarding expressly illegal, he looks likely to be rejected by the Judiciary Committee.”
Read Mukasey’s full answers HERE.
UPDATE: In a statement, Leahy said he was “very concerned” that Mukasey was “unable to state unequivocally that waterboarding is illegal”:
Based on an initial review of his response to the letter, I remain very concerned that Judge Mukasey finds himself unable to state unequivocally that waterboarding is illegal and below the standards and values of the United States.
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I got a good idea, let’s waterboard him until he gives us a definite answer.
George Tenet says it has given us good information, but all historians say it does not. Let’s waterboard Tenet until he tells the truth.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:11 pmI am going to be very angry if the Democrats allow Mukasey to become the AG. He will be taking his oath to George Bush and not to the constitution. Anyone who watched his testimony during the first day of the hearings and the second day of the hearings knows that he is nothing more than another Bush sycophant. Someone got to him between the first day’s testimony and the second day’s. If this man is that easily swayed by the Bush Crime Family, HE IS NOT WHO WE WANT AS OUR AG. I suggest that everyone write or call Harry Reid and tell him to do the right thing. Mukasey has already said that the President can break the law. Add that to his inability to call Waterboarding torture, he is no better than Gonzales.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:12 pmMukasey continues to hedge and attempt to blur the issue….clearly, he’s mastered the art of obfuscation! He does not deserve to be appointed AG at this point as he’s made it clear that he will continue the charades that Gonzo began. He won’t honestly answer a question relating to such a critical issue and he’s using the same tactics of the Bush crime cabal already! If Congress approves him as AG in such a critical time as this, then Congress needs to be impeached - every last one of them.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:16 pmWasn’t Mukasey the lynchpin in the original decision to ignore the Geneva Conventions on torture and then sent his legal opinion to Gonzo? If this is so, how can anyone with even a modicum of sanity believe that he’s the right man for the job?
October 30th, 2007 at 6:18 pmI would appreciate if Senator Leahy would grow a freaking spine and show us just a wee bit more than his mere “concern.” (albeit “very” concerned). I grow weary as hell to see Leahy’s Sternly Worded Letters (SWLs) and oh so very harsh rhetoric with absolutely no substance to support them.
Enough with your “concern,” Senator. Grow a backbone and say “NO.” Stand for something, dammit.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:18 pmWhat is hypothetical about waterboarding? Does he claim that the very existence of it is theoretical? Or would the application of it be OK in some cases and not in others? The question is simple: Is waterboarding a form of torture?
Maybe sometimes it’s foreplay.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:21 pmmunkeysay munkaseydo
October 30th, 2007 at 6:23 pmTotally “on board” w/ you, Keith. Excellent idea!
I’ve also heard Alberto is refusing to talk to anyone since resigning. Perhaps a little water boarding would loosen his tongue too!
After all, it’s NOT really torture, is it?
October 30th, 2007 at 6:24 pmAnd yet his appointment is by all accounts a foregone conclusion. WTF is this charade? And why do Democrats lack a collective nut sack?
October 30th, 2007 at 6:24 pmWhat is hypothetical about waterboarding? Does he claim that the very existence of it is theoretical? Or would the application of it be OK in some cases and not in others? The question is simple: Is waterboarding a form of torture?
Comment by gummitch — October 30, 2007 @ 6:21 pm
Is it torture when we do it to our Special Forces and Pilots in SERE school? If so, I assume it would be banned as a training technique right away.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:29 pmAttorney General nominee Michael Mukasey: another traitor to our Bill of Rights; another traitor to our Constitution; another traitor to America…
October 30th, 2007 at 6:30 pmIf this guy gets confirmed, I will truly give up on this country. If he can’t define torture than he obviously can’t do the job. This is a man is or was an advisor to Guiliani, his son work for the Guiliani Law Firm and isn’t he the one who kept Jose Padilla in jail without charges for over 3 years? I say boot his ass out. But they will have to be careful, Bush will give someone (or him) the job as a recess appointment.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:32 pmKeltoi sez:
If it’s not torture, Keltoi, why are the Special Forces trained to resist it?
Plus, there’s a big difference between being trained to resist a torture technique, and undergoing the torture for real.
This is one of your dumber arguments. Pretty disappointing.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:33 pmSeeing as how we executed Sgt. Major Shinako Yuki of the Imperial Japanese military for using the technique on us during WWII, I think there is no argument that it is torture.
Seeing as how we courtmarshaled U.S. Army Major Edwin Glenn for using it against suspected Phillipine insurgents in 1902, there shouldn’t be any argument that American military aren’t supposed to do it.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:34 pmHistorians for the past 65 years or so say if the person being interrogated does not know anything, but must talk in order to get the torturing to stop, then they will start making up stuff to get the torturing to stop. Wouldn’t you? Then time and resources are lost acting on false information.
Remember: we are picking up thousands of prisoners in sweeps. The Pentagon has said 90% were released because they were innocent. Some were turned in because a rival tribe received reward money. We are therefore increasing the number of insurgents or terrorists by our tactics.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:34 pmWaterboarding is torture. Waterboarding has been used at CIA black sites under the Bush administration. So, a) it’s illegal and b) it’s real, not hypothetical.
I’m glad I was able to clear that up for you, Michael Mukroney. Now take yourself out of the running for AG, because you’re a lying, corrupt little sack of crap. Oh yeah, and you’re a shill for Giuliani, too. That’s just what we don’t need at the Justice Department with the ‘08 election coming up.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:35 pmGonzales redux. Screw this guy and every other nominee who won’t answer that question directly. NO CONFIRMATION!
October 30th, 2007 at 6:36 pmIf it’s not torture, Keltoi, why are the Special Forces trained to resist it?
Plus, there’s a big difference between being trained to resist a torture technique, and undergoing the torture for real.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — October 30, 2007 @ 6:33 pm
How so? Can you kinda sorta make someone think they are going to drown to death? I haven’t had SERE training, I assume you have not either, so neither of us have firsthand knowledge. The interviews I have seen of soldiers who have had it done made it sound like they got the full treatment.
I am serious, Trip - should we be doing it to our own guys if we deem it too harsh to do to AQ?
BTW, I respect your intellect as much or more than anyone on this list, so snide assessments of my own intelligence are the very definition of disappointing. It is pointless and beneath you.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:39 pmBy most accounts, Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey is not the intellectually stunted, duplicitous partisan hatchet man and unabashed Bush loyalist that was his predecessor, Alberto Gonzales. But in his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Mukasey followed almost the same script on Bush administration torture policy as Gonzales during his own confirmation hearings in January 2005. As it turns out, both men disavowed the infamous 2002 Bybee memo and brushed aside questions about ongoing torture of detainees as “hypothetical” even as the policies continued unchanged.
For the details, see:
October 30th, 2007 at 6:41 pm“Deja Vu: Mukasey Channels Gonzales’ 2005 Testimony.”
According to Human Rights First, the interrogation that lead to the death of Iraqi Major General Abed Hamed Mowhoush involved the use of techniques used in SERE training. According to the organization “Internal FBI memos and press reports have pointed to SERE training as the basis for some of the harshest techniques authorized for use on detainees by the Pentagon in 2002 and 2003.”
October 30th, 2007 at 6:46 pmHow so? Can you kinda sorta make someone think they are going to drown to death? I haven’t had SERE training, I assume you have not either, so neither of us have firsthand knowledge. The interviews I have seen of soldiers who have had it done made it sound like they got the full treatment.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — October 30, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
People in training know they’re not going to be killed, for one thing. They’re being trained. As bad as it gets, they know there’s an end point. I’m sure it’s pretty awful, but it isn’t torture if you know the other person is on your side, is training you and isn’t going to kill you.
Someone being held in a black CIA installation has none of those reassurances and no reason to trust that the person waterboarding them cares if they die or not.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:47 pmWhy, how utterly silly of us stupid, unAmurcan libs to expect an AG with morals, one who would stand against torture, one who would uphold our Constitution and our laws!!
How silly of us.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:47 pmI am serious, Trip - should we be doing it to our own guys if we deem it too harsh to do to AQ?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
I believe you missed the point. We train our guys on it because some countries use TORTURE as a way to get information - however bad the intel might be. Other countries - you know the ones we are supposed to be better than - use an illegal (according to the Geneva Convention) method of interogation. It would be wise for any military person to be introduced to the method as a way to anticipate what it feels like and how to survivie it. Because we train on a method should not suggest we actually utilize the method on our own prisoners.
Remember, we are supposed to be better than the countries who torture. That makes us different than they are.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:49 pmSeeing as how we courtmarshaled U.S. Army Major Edwin Glenn for using it against suspected Phillipine insurgents in 1902, there shouldn’t be any argument that American military aren’t supposed to do it.
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — October 30, 2007 @ 6:34 pm
Wow! Really? That is some deep research, Colonel. Considering the utter, utter brutality of the Phillinpine insurgency, I must say I find it a tad surprising this would be done. Were there extenuating circumstances, or do you have a link?
By your moniker I assume you are ex-military; do you have any firsthand experience of this technique? Do you think it should be banned from SERE training?
October 30th, 2007 at 6:50 pmOh just wait for it . . . the Dems will fold, yet again, and approve him.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:51 pmKeltoi - I have to agree with TMM and Gummich. Training is a far different exercise than torture-for-real.
And since we have opened Pandora’s Box on this one - we can surely expect any American soldier captured by the enemy to be hurt very badly by their captors.
We’ve opened the door for it. Us. Americans. We have only ourselves to blame for what is coming…
Shame on you, Keltoi, for advocating the use of torture on ANY other human being. Shame on you.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:53 pm#10 Keltoi
Is it torture when we do it to our Special Forces and Pilots in SERE school? If so, I assume it would be banned as a training technique right away.
Here’s an idea, Slick. Why don’t you go ask the SERE school graduates if it’s torture. Or better yet, find out exactly how it’s done and have somebody do it to you. Then report back to us.
In the meantime, gnaw on this for a while. The SERE school attendees a) get to experience it up to a point, the point where they realize they can’t take any more of it, and b) have qualified people standing by to revive them if they do accidentally go too far. The circumstances are entirely different. The only thing that’s the same for SERE students and detainees is the induced extreme state of panic.
There’s a reason that waterboarding has been used by the Nazis, the North Vietnamese, the North Koreans, and the Khmer Rouge. And, it’s not because they were afraid to get tough with their prisoners.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:54 pmHmmmm.. Mukasey Calls Waterboarding ‘Hypothetical.’ And is sleep deprivation hypothetical too? Mukasey’s mind is in Alice in Wonderland. And this man is a judge and he doesn’t know that waterboarding is used as torture?
October 30th, 2007 at 6:54 pmThe Pentagon has admitted to about 95 deaths in about 13 prisons around Iraq. So we are not talking hypotheticals, we are not talking close to death, nor a few bad apples, nor just Abu Ghraib.
We can only imagine what happens to unknowns in renditions to Egypt, Syria, or Uzbekistan.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:55 pmWow! Really? That is some deep research, Colonel. Considering the utter, utter brutality of the Phillinpine insurgency, I must say I find it a tad surprising this would be done. Were there extenuating circumstances, or do you have a link?
Comment by Keltoi at Night — October 30, 2007 @ 6:50 pm
So if the insurgents (who were fighting the US for their independence) used “utter, utter brutality”, how would you characterize the US response? You know, the part about executing surrendering soldiers, burning villages and throwing civilians into concentration camps to die?
October 30th, 2007 at 6:55 pmKeltoi sez:
I’m finding it hard to believe that you are actually attempting to pursue this line of reasoning.
There is a key difference between being trained by your fellow soldiers to resist a torture technique, and undergoing the torture for real in the hands of your enemies. Since you seem incapable of figuring out what that difference is, I’ll spell it out for you. The trainee is there by choice, and can wash out if he doesn’t have what it takes. The detainee is there against his will, and cannot escape his situation by any means short of suicide. Also, the trainees are not completely broken, as they would be useless to the military in that case, while completely breaking the detainees is the whole point.
Honestly, Keltoi…
I call them as I see them, Keltoi. Attempting to use S.E.R.E. training as a justification for torture is stupid, disappointing, and definitely beneath you. If you have a problem with my assessment of your behavior, you might want to modify it in the future.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:57 pmExperiments show that sleep deprivation (for long enough) results in hallucinations.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:59 pm#18 Keltoi
BTW, I respect your intellect as much or more than anyone on this list, so snide assessments of my own intelligence are the very definition of disappointing. It is pointless and beneath you.
Then stop playing dumb.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:00 pmKeith sez:
I could have told you that…^_^
October 30th, 2007 at 7:00 pmSo if the insurgents (who were fighting the US for their independence) used “utter, utter brutalityâ€, how would you characterize the US response? You know, the part about executing surrendering soldiers, burning villages and throwing civilians into concentration camps to die?
Comment by gummitch — October 30, 2007 @ 6:55 pm
Sorry, I WAS referring to the conduct of US soldiers. Summary executions, scorched Earth tactics, the kind of stuff that were it happening today - and I know, some of you think it is - would horrify the American public. Most Americans have never even heard of the Phillipine insurgency.
My point was, the US used such ruthless tactics - and quelled the insurgency, BTW - that I am surprised an officer was court marshaled for waterboarding when others got away with worse.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:01 pmExperiments show that sleep deprivation (for long enough) results in hallucinations.
Comment by Keith — October 30, 2007 @ 6:59 pm
Ban that too?
October 30th, 2007 at 7:02 pmPlease, someone ask him if murder is a crime. Hypothetically.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:03 pmKeltoi: Yes, I was trained. Its not a nice experience. Indeed, it was one of the most horrible things I underwent during my military training. There were many appropriate safeguards. You do put a lot of trust in those doing the training. If my plane had been shot down, if I were in enemy hands, and if I thought that my captors were doing it for real or would take it beyond the limit - Yes, I would call it torture. Indeed, interrogators bragged about how many times they boarded Khalid before he broke. Wow, that is not how it works in training.
IT WOULD NOT BE USED FOR INTERROGATION IF IT WERE NO MORE THAN A TRAINING DEVICE. IT MAKES YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. IT BREAKS YOU AS A PERSON. DO NOT DOWN PLAY IT. YOU TRY TO MAKE IT LOOK AS THOUGH IT IS A LIGHT WEIGHT MEASURE. IT IS NOT. THOSE WHO JOINED THE MILITARY AND UNDERGO SUCH TRAINING ARE THERE BY CHOICE AND IN FAR MORE BENIGN CIRCUMSTANCES THAN A PRISONER.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:04 pmWe have lost our moral compass. And Mukasey’s nomination is just one more example of this.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:06 pmIf he fines that waterboarding is “over the line†and “repugnant†then his answer should be simple. But, he seems more concerned with “getting the job” than answering to his own morality.
Is this a man anyone can trust?
There is a key difference between being trained by your fellow soldiers to resist a torture technique, and undergoing the torture for real in the hands of your enemies. Since you seem incapable of figuring out what that difference is, I’ll spell it out for you.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — October 30, 2007 @ 7:00 pm
One other key difference is that the AQ guy undergoing the “torture” may have information that could save 100s or thousands of lives.
As is often the case, I am playing Devil’s Advocate here, so Annie, don’t fear too much for my soul, I am merely pointing out that if we do it to our own troops it is at least debatable if we shouldn’t do it to save American lives. What are our troops training to do?
I won’t torture (sorry…) you with the link to the AQ torture manual again, but if waterboarding is just as bad as AQs methods, why don’t we use their manual in our training?
October 30th, 2007 at 7:07 pmExperiments show that sleep deprivation (for long enough) results in hallucinations.
Comment by Keith — October 30, 2007 @ 6:59 pm
Ban that too?
Comment by Keltoi at Night — October 30, 2007 @ 7:02 pm
No , keep it ; they could test it out on your family (I was going to suggest you 1st , before I quickly realized you’re already hallucinating)
October 30th, 2007 at 7:07 pmMy point was, the US used such ruthless tactics - and quelled the insurgency, BTW - that I am surprised an officer was court marshaled for waterboarding when others got away with worse.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — October 30, 2007 @ 7:01 pm
It just goes to show that the “water cure” has been acknowledged as torture for a long time. Do a little search on that subject and you’ll see that it was even a tool in the Inquisition.
If you do a search on Major Glenn, you’ll see that the information is accurate. The New York Times even has a pdf of the original article in which Glenn claimed (during his trial) that he felt justified using the method for the same reasons modern proponents do, but he never denied that it was torture.
Incidentally, the fact that the US “quelled” the “insurgency” is hardly a moral justification nor even particularly amazing, given the disparity of resources between the Philippine population and the US and its army. Continuing to call it an “insurgency” is just a way of delegitimizing what was purely a struggle for independence, no different in essence than the American Revolution.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:07 pmOne need not wonder why this AK should not be the AG. (For you unimaginative folk the AK is short for BN which is a euphemism for a butt busser). If the AK defines waterboarding as torture then he will be forced to act against the wishes of King George the Dumb who only nominated the AK to be a RS (Rubber Stamp) as was AG the AG. It is a damned if I do and a damned if I don’t. If he declares it not to be torture he will not be confirmed; if he declares it torture KGtD will withdraw his nomination. When in doubt lie! And pray like hell that Darth Cheney will intervene and shoot Senator Leahy instead of just telling him to go “F” himself.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:08 pm#35 Keltoi
My point was, the US used such ruthless tactics - and quelled the insurgency, BTW…
Quelled? It’s called “annihilation”. It’s sort of like a massacre, but on a much bigger scale.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:08 pmIf you have a problem with my assessment of your behavior, you might want to modify it in the future.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — October 30, 2007 @ 6:57
S’okay. I’ll just keep chuckling, shaking my head and thinking “What a little know it all he is!” But I enjoy the debate.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:10 pmOne other key difference is that the AQ guy undergoing the “torture†may have information that could save 100s or thousands of lives.
As is often the case, I am playing Devil’s Advocate here, so Annie, don’t fear too much for my soul, I am merely pointing out that if we do it to our own troops it is at least debatable if we shouldn’t do it to save American lives. What are our troops training to do?
I won’t torture (sorry…) you with the link to the AQ torture manual again, but if waterboarding is just as bad as AQs methods, why don’t we use their manual in our training?
Comment by Keltoi at Night — October 30, 2007 @ 7:07 pm
October 30th, 2007 at 7:12 pmOur troops , especially Special Op type of forces , train for any and every eventuality ; but as the supposed beacon of freedom and democracy that is reasoning enough to not use someone elses ‘methods’ , no matter what the reason or purpose or falsely claimed success rate ………
IT WOULD NOT BE USED FOR INTERROGATION IF IT WERE NO MORE THAN A TRAINING DEVICE. IT MAKES YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. IT BREAKS YOU AS A PERSON. DO NOT DOWN PLAY IT. YOU TRY TO MAKE IT LOOK AS THOUGH IT IS A LIGHT WEIGHT MEASURE. IT IS NOT. THOSE WHO JOINED THE MILITARY AND UNDERGO SUCH TRAINING ARE THERE BY CHOICE AND IN FAR MORE BENIGN CIRCUMSTANCES THAN A PRISONER.
Comment by JMOHR — October 30, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
Thank you for your insight and your service. I assume you think there are absolutely no circumstances where this technique is appropriate to use on AQ? If you say not, my opinion will be changed, which is why I come here.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:13 pmOne other key difference is that the AQ guy undergoing the “torture†may have information that could save 100s or thousands of lives.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — October 30, 2007 @ 7:07 pm
Or he could be a goatherd that wandered across the wrong border. Your hypothetical is bogus, as is the assumption (amply discredited by a number of sources including our own military) that torture is an reliable method of extracting useful information. Do you really believe all those people burned by the Inquisition were witches?
October 30th, 2007 at 7:13 pmA fascinating article from a SERE trainer, explains quite adequately why our special forces are trained by being subjected to the waterboard.
The author says, If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives.
Because we use and condone it, we have lost the moral high ground. And the reason it is used in training is precisely because we have made it a legitimate technique by using it ourselves. The author again:
Is There a Place for the Waterboard?
Yes. The waterboard must go back to the realm of SERE training our operators, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. We must now double our efforts to prepare for its inevitable and uncontrolled use of by our future enemies.
I recommend the article - well-researched, highly descriptive, and told from the point of view of someone who has seen it and endured it.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:13 pmwell……let’s give him a test drive. the nazi in office says this is a good way to get information.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:17 pmHow much does anyone want to bet that we have had Soldiers tortured in this “GWOT” and they have either 1) died in the hands of their captors 2) lied to their captors or 3) been rescued from their captors and have been instructed in no uncertain terms that they are to deny the fact that they were tortured?
October 30th, 2007 at 7:17 pmKeltoi, I’m just saying that we executed a member of the Japanese Intelligence arm of their military for waterboarding, so there shouldn’t even be any argument on whether or not it’s torture. I blame our mainstream corporate media for obfuscating this issue. In the war crimes trial, a witness described the proceedure and his description is exactly like waterboarding has been explained to us. You can google on Sgt. Maj Chinsaku Yuki, if you don’t believe me.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:18 pmThank you for your insight and your service. I assume you think there are absolutely no circumstances where this technique is appropriate to use on AQ? If you say not, my opinion will be changed, which is why I come here.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — October 30, 2007 @ 7:13 pm
Obviously there is no circumstance where waterboarding would be appropriate ; wanna’ know why ?
Because the Geneva Peace Treaty that we signed prohibits it , making it international ,and yes , national LAW.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:18 pmIT IS AGAINST THE LAW ; THERFORE IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Especially when those that are using it illegally have gotten nothing correct in 7 years nor have followed any law during that whole time either……….
My point was, the US used such ruthless tactics - and quelled the insurgency, BTW…
Quelled? It’s called “annihilationâ€. It’s sort of like a massacre, but on a much bigger scale.
Comment by chimpeach — October 30, 2007 @ 7:08 pm
YES, IT WAS BAD, I SAID THAT.
Y’know, today alone I have had to debate the evil of America as regards the 2000 election, Hiroshima and the Philipines. Sometimes I wonder what was the last time America did something good in the eyes of TP that didn’t involve Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter.
And now that I have waved a red flag before the Progressive Bull, I will flee, ducking and weaving, to the ultimate citadel of American Evil, Wal-Mart. However, JMOHR, I’ll check in later to get your response, I am sincere in asking.
Bye guys!
October 30th, 2007 at 7:18 pmCol. Jack, thanks for that reminder. It would appear we have a precedent that makes waterboarding illegal, doesn’t it?
October 30th, 2007 at 7:19 pmWaterboarding was a favorite technique used by Pol Pot. We’re supposed to be freaking better than Pol Pot, for god’s sake.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:22 pmDamned those 400,000 Filipinos who were killed by the US after fighting on our side during the Spanish-American War! Didn’t they realize that we were not fighting to liberate them or bring them democracy or to get rid of the bad Spanish? We just wanted to control the parts of the world the Spanish had–like Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines. They were just insurgent evil-doers using terrorist tactics. We had to fight them over there so we wouldn’t have to fight them over here. [sarcasm]
October 30th, 2007 at 7:22 pmThe Geneva Conventions takes precedence over U.S. law. I don’t know if “waterboarding” is specifically mentioned but, the physical abuse, terrorizing, or degradation of prisoners is definitely prohibited.
There is one very compelling reason to follow the Geneva Conventions. The protection of our own military personnel.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:24 pmAfter we signed the Geneva Conventions they became the law of the US.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:26 pmKeltoi sez:
First of all, waterboarding is torture. Period. You can stop enclosing it in “quotes”, jackass.
Second, maintaining that it’s OK because the victim may have information that could save hundreds or thousands of lives is the very nadir of moral relativism. Again, I expected better of you, Keltoi. This is the kind of mealy-mouthed bullsh!t I’d expect from TDon or Shakey Jake.
Third, as I’m getting SICK of explaining here, torture is not, and never has been, a reliable method for extracting intelligence, so what, then, is your justification?
Who are you calling “little”?
Oh, good. Let me know when you’re up for one.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:26 pm#40 Keltoi
One other key difference is that the AQ guy undergoing the “torture†may have information that could save 100s or thousands of lives.
Or not. How would you know if this AQ guy is giving you real intelligence if you don’t already know the answers to the questions? How would you know if he was just telling you what you wanted to hear, as in the case of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, who told us lies about al Qaeda and Iraq while undergoing harsh interrogation techniques by the CIA?
That dream scenario of torturing a terrorist and saving 100s or thousands of lives is bullshit.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:26 pmAfter we signed the Geneva Conventions they became the law of the US.
Comment by Keith — October 30, 2007 @ 7:26 pm
Until Gonzo rendered the Geneva Convention “Quaint” then everything changed.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:28 pmMukasey isn’t even pretending that he’ll represent the PEOPLE of the US as AG. He’ll be serving Bush.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:30 pmKeltoi: “One other key difference is that the AQ guy undergoing the “torture†may have information”
Why would someone use quotation marks around torture when referring to a proceedure for which we executed people after WWII? Again, I blame our corporate/fascist mainstream media for this. There is no argument. The fact that we even think there’s an argument is the fault of our media. We should expect the Bushies to push propaganda to save their own asses but for our media to be complicit in this deception is absolutely unacceptable.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:32 pmOh, good. Let me know when you’re up for one.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — October 30, 2007 @ 7:26 pm
Excellent finish to a very nice post. Thanks.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:36 pm#54 Keltoi
Y’know, today alone I have had to debate the evil of America as regards the 2000 election, Hiroshima and the Philipines. Sometimes I wonder what was the last time America did something good in the eyes of TP that didn’t involve Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter.
Yeah, and you can’t admit it when an American president leads this country to do something so wrong that it would make the Founding Fathers just tear up the Declaration of Independence and say “Screw it, it’s not worth it.”
I’m always happy to praise this country when we do something right. And we’ve done many things right in all these years. But, I’m not content to just pretend we’re doing right when in fact we’re doing something horribly wrong. And, what we’re doing in Iraq and what we did in Abu Ghraib and the black sites and the rendition sites are definitely wrong. You can be happy just pretending that we’re in the right even when you and everyone else knows we’re not. I’m not satisfied with that. I need this country to actually do what’s right. You’re okay living a lie. I’m not.
And, by the way, you keep telling us you’re “sincere”. You’re working that one a little too hard I think. I’m not convinced.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:38 pmBill Clinton in an interview recently said that that if he had a captive that he believed had info we needed to prevent a catastrophe that torture would still be illegal. He said he might still order the torture if he though there was really a good chance it would save lives but that it should still be illegal and that he should have to suffer the consequences for order the breaking of the law.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:38 pmMukasey has been honest and forthcoming. His confirmation will bring great energy and vigor to the Justice Department.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 7:45
What do you know about honesty Mr. President?
October 30th, 2007 at 7:48 pmMukasey has been honest and forthcoming. His confirmation will bring great energy and vigor to the Justice Department.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 7:45 pm
You’re basing that on….?
October 30th, 2007 at 7:50 pmMukasey has been honest and forthcoming. His confirmation will bring great energy and vigor to the Justice Department.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 7:45 pm
October 30th, 2007 at 7:51 pmMukasey doesn’t have the courage to state the truth. Waterboarding is torture by anyone standards, except those of Bush&Cheney who have no standards.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:52 pmWhy amyone would even want to be AG under this corrupt cadre of criminals is beyond me. If he really wanted to be AG for the United States, he would state the obvious and let Bush take it or leave it.
Where does Bush find these weasels?
And I thought Ashcroft was bad!
Mukasey has been honest and forthcoming. His confirmation will bring great energy and vigor to the Justice Department.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 7:45 pm
which they will use to keep dragging America down in the eys of the world, and which they will also use to continue to break all laws and treaties with impunity. the DOJ’s energy and vigor will be in short supply when they’re alli in prison, I’ll bet.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:57 pmThe United States has long considered waterboarding to be torture and a war crime. As early as 1901, a U.S. court martial sentenced Major Edwin Glenn to 10 years of hard labor for subjecting a suspected insurgent in the Philippines to the “water cure.” After World War II, U.S. military commissions successfully prosecuted as war criminals several Japanese soldiers who subjected American prisoners to waterboarding. A U.S. army officer was court-martialed in February 1968 for helping to waterboard a prisoner in Vietnam.
The U.S. Congress recently adopted the Military Commissions Act, which criminalized under all circumstances treatment of prisoners that causes serious physical or mental pain or suffering. The legislation explicitly states that such suffering need not be “prolonged” for the treatment to constitute a war crime, a rebuke to past Bush administration legal opinions that reportedly permitted waterboarding on the questionable grounds that the terror it induces does not have a prolonged impact on its victims. Two of the chief sponsors of the legislation, Senators John McCain and John Warner, have said that it criminalizes waterboarding.
In April 2006, in a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, more than 100 U.S. law professors stated unequivocally that waterboarding is torture, and is a criminal felony punishable under the U.S. federal criminal code.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:59 pmMukasey is another Bush WAR CRIMINAL TRAITOR, who helped bury the fact that a double-agent named Ali Mohamed was working for the FBI, but
was actually a Bin Laden SPY.
http://rawstory.com/ news/ 2007/ Author_Bush_nominee_helped_mask_FBIs_0925.html
Of course, the Bin Ladens FINANCED Bush’s failed oil businesses, so what do you expect from these TRAITORS???
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
October 30th, 2007 at 8:00 pmThe fact that he has been truly honest to the committee.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:02 pm
This is a “fact” because you’re saying so?
October 30th, 2007 at 8:03 pmMukasey, I feel, would do just fine as Attorneys General.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:02 pm
Your ignorance grows with each post. who cares what you feel? Nobody, that’s who. Not a soul. Especially when you are so completely wrong about everything. Mukasey is a traitor, and will weaken America further. Maybe that’s why you like him so much. We know you hate America, that’s become glaringly obvious.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:06 pmThe president is not going to nominate someone less conservative, so this should be considered a treat.
Not a treat, just more TREASON from the Bush WAR CRIMINALS.
When President Hillary gets in, the FIRST thing she needs to do is have Bush and Cheney and ALL the PNAC WAR CRIMINAL TRAITORS arrested.
And TORTURE Bush with waterboarding at Gitmo until he DROPS DEAD.
And goes to his MASTER Satan from there…
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
October 30th, 2007 at 8:07 pmMukasey has shown unflinching support for the goals and ideals of the Bush administration. Haven’t we learned that such a stance should preclude one from public service? I mean, seriously, they base their policies on the surprise ending of an unoriginal (plagiarized) work of fiction.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:10 pmNewsflash sez:
“Truly honest”? That must have been why he couldn’t deliver a straight answer when asked about waterboarding.
We have an AG nominee that will not admit that waterboarding is torture. Everything most definitely does NOT look good.
Who the hell asked about “harsher methods”? Way to move the goalposts, Spanky.
By implying that waterboarding is somehow “less harsh” than other methods of torture, you betray your fundamental lack of knowledge concerning this horrific practice. Ask yourself this: if waterboarding is so innocuous, why did the Khmer Rouge utilize it as their torture of choice?
Fsck that, and fsck you. We don’t need Chimpy’s “treats”…especially “treats” that all but verify that they will continue to endorse the use of torture by the United States.
That’s completely false. Approving an AG who approves of the United States’ use of torture is not a ’step up’…especially if you’re forewarned of his approval.
I’m sure you do feel that way…since you too seem to be OK with the concept of government-sponsored torture.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:13 pm#24 Keltoi at Night:
Wow! Really? That is some deep research, Colonel. Considering the utter, utter brutality of the Phillinpine insurgency, I must say I find it a tad surprising this would be done. Were there extenuating circumstances, or do you have a link?
OK, the Philippine insurgency was a rather brutal conflict (and not just on one side, either). And this changes things exactly how?!?!?
More on our wonderful history around the planet this last century can be found in Stephen Kinzer’s book “Overthrow” … including information on our Great Adventure in Iran in 1953 (which might have something to do with why they don’t get along with us all that much (Google SAVAK sometime if you want to learn more about “torture”)….
Cheers,
October 30th, 2007 at 8:15 pm#21 Gummich:
People in training know they’re not going to be killed, for one thing. They’re being trained.
Then there’s that guy that was permanently injured in one such training “exercise” (not “waterboarding” but similar ‘training’), who’s suing the gummint because of it….
Cheers,
October 30th, 2007 at 8:18 pmAn “honest” wrong answer is just as wrong as a dishonest one. Or a non-answer.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:18 pmNewsflash sez:
Maybe he should withdraw his damned name from consideration, as he is clearly unfit for the office.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:20 pmLefty Patriot = smafdy
More robotic, leftist, vitriolic hate speech to be deleted. And no, smafdy this is not your home. Your kind deserves to operate under a sewer.
Now stop babbling.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
Says the little Chickenhawk Nazi PUNK, just like his AWOL coward HERO,
MURDERER Bush the COXUCKER punk TRAITOR to the USA.
No go to Iraq and Iran and DIE for your FUHRER, little Chickenhawk…
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
October 30th, 2007 at 8:25 pmComment by Zooey — October 30, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
Maybe he should just lie instead, since this is a time where he could walk away unscathed, Bush protection and all. But no, he decided to be honest. That should recieve some credit, while not tarnishing his candidacy.
Beats Alberto!
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
Hey “Newsflash”
I’ve got a newsflash for your dopey ass ……….
“In a written response to questions from Senate Democrats today, Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey refused to explicitly say whether he believed waterboarding to be torture.”
Since when has “refusing to explicitly say” come to mean “honest” , shitstick ?
October 30th, 2007 at 8:25 pm#40 Keltoi at Night:
I won’t torture (sorry…) you with the link to the AQ torture manual again, but if waterboarding is just as bad as AQs methods, why don’t we use their manual in our training?
No one said that “waterboarding is just as bad as AQs methods”. But if you think about it for a second, you’d have the obvious answer to your question. Clue fer ya, it’s not this: “[T]he US used such ruthless tactics - and quelled the insurgency“…
The “TTB” argument, BTW, is one I addressed and answered a couple of years ago….
Cheers,
October 30th, 2007 at 8:26 pmComment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
That wasn’t the question, was it?
Try answering my question. Thanks.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:27 pm#67 Shayne:
Bill Clinton in an interview recently said that that if he had a captive that he believed had info we needed to prevent a catastrophe that torture would still be illegal. He said he might still order the torture if he though there was really a good chance it would save lives but that it should still be illegal and that he should have to suffer the consequences for order the breaking of the law.
Agreed. See my link above.
Cheers,
October 30th, 2007 at 8:29 pmComment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:32 pm
You have no answered me, and now you’ve become defensive and are resorting to name-calling.
Answer, please.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:34 pmComment by TripMaster Monkey — October 30, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
As he was the Chief U.S. District Judge for the District of New York, you should know that’s just one element of his impressive resume. He also has experience dealing with rigorous, demanding terrorism cases.
When do you plan on taking no for an answer? Why won’t you let this man serve this country’s arm of Justice? He only wants to protect you.
Attorney General Michael Mukasey (sel): A great nominee.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:31 pm
On the issue of executive power, for , Mukasey did not fully repudiate the lawlessness of the Bush administration but rather asserted that the executive can violate congressional statutes under circumstances where the executive claims broad authority to “defend the nation,” which (given the vague contours of national security claims) allows the executive potentially substantial discretion to ignore valid congressional statutes.
That isn’t “impressive” , shithead …………It’s unconstitutional (not to mention absolutely stupid.No president deserves absolute power ; and especially not the current loser in the Oval Office , who happens to be the worst president in US history)
Now , piss off ………..
October 30th, 2007 at 8:36 pm“His confirmation is probably forth coming, like it or not, so this will be a good boost for the nation.”
Comment by Newsflash
How so? By making it no big deal for others to torture Americans, since he won’t condemn the practice?
October 30th, 2007 at 8:44 pmNewsflash sez:
Waterboarding IS torture, jackass, all your prevarications to the contrary. The practice is recognized worldwide as a torture tactic and forbidden under the Geneva Conventions. Your ill-advised opinion is irrelevant.
Only a troll would characterize a confirmation hearing as a “sideshow”.
I don’t give a damn about Mukasey’s “resume”. He showed his true colors when he refused to admit that waterboarding was torture.
I’ve been hearing that sanctimonious bullsh!t since 9/11 (which this administration, at the very least, abjectly failed to ‘protect us’ from).
We don’t need your damned ‘protection’. We need protection from you and your ilk. You’re the real enemy here.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:44 pmComment by MCMetal — October 30, 2007 @ 8:25 pm
Another crazy robotic leftist who’s not exactly up to speed for his age!
Mukasey has done a good job answering questions. Keep in mind, he’s not required to answer all of them.
His confirmation is probably forth coming, like it or not, so this will be a good boost for the nation.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:36 pm
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
@ Your imbecilic loser ass , claiming anyone is “crazy” and/or “robotic”.
You’re the one that backs the worst president in US history , whose whole garbage presidency has consisted of a “don’t question us/those that show dissent are traitors/comitting treason” mindset and applied ideology , and regurgitated by FAUX Comedy Channel and brainless sheep such as yourself.
And keep in mind , NewtsGash , that he is required to oversee that THE LAW IS UPHELD ; WATERBOARDING IS ILLEGAL. Therefore he is unqualified to become AG.
BTW
Is the “boost” you’re suggesting gonna’ present itself in the form of job openings for torturers ?
You are nothing more than a Chimpy rim licking shithead ………Get lost.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:44 pm“I’m not sure if there’s broad consensus in the world that waterboarding is torture,”
Hoo Boy!
Ever heard of the Geneva Conventions?
Apparently not.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:45 pmStill afraid of the “leftist” under your bed? Have Mommy read you a bedtime story. I suggest Mein Kompf or the Bible. Anything else might challenge your dreams of totalitarianism.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:45 pmTo answer your question: It’s is a fact because I have explained so, because I have reflected on the hearings.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
Thank you for answering. However, simply the expression of your opinion on Mukasey’s honesty does not make it a fact.
If this were a court of law, you’d be laughed out of here. In fact, this is not a court of law, and you’re still being laughed out of here.
Dismissed.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:47 pmThis is a “fact†because you’re saying so?
Comment by Zooey — October 30, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
I’m opining that, yes, Mukasey has been an honest nominee who has bipartisan support with recent concerns over his views on waterboarding. I’m not sure if there’s broad consensus in the world that waterboarding is torture, so I wouldn’t expect Mukasey of all people to provide that definite conclusion. I sense he just wants to be cautious in the name of fighting terror, to leave no options off the table.
To answer your question: It’s is a fact because I have explained so, because I have reflected on the hearings.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
Torture has never been “on the table’ except for this horseshit administration and the cretins that are running for the GOP nomination as president (besides Ron Paul) , dunce
And there is a “consensus” in the world on waterboarding ; it is torture and it is categorized as such in the Geneva Peace Treaty that the US has signed , which MAKES IT LAW.
What a lying sack of shit you are……….
October 30th, 2007 at 8:49 pmI’m not sure if there’s broad consensus in the world that waterboarding is torture, so I wouldn’t expect Mukasey of all people to provide that definite conclusion. I sense he just wants to be cautious in the name of fighting terror, to leave no options off the table.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
You’re “not sure”? You need to take the effort to learn something, Pee. It was used in the Inquisition and called tortura del agua. The Germans and Japanese used it as torture in WWII and the Khmer Rouge used it. If you are “not sure” it’s because you haven’t bothered to look.
And we’re well accustomed to your assurances that you “feel” or “sense” that some Bushie is honest and forthright. Your “feelings” are delusional and of no probative value.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:53 pmI’m not sure if there’s broad consensus in the world that waterboarding is torture, so I wouldn’t expect Mukasey of all people to provide that definite conclusion. I sense he just wants to be cautious in the name of fighting terror, to leave no options off the table.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
Good point. When you’re fighting an abstract concept, why limit your options? I’m hoping we declare martial law when it’s time to bring hubris to justice.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:54 pmDoes anyone recall which comedian said, “If God creates jackasses, He broke the mold with you”. It’s a quote I like to use but I can’t remember who to credit. Thanx.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:54 pmBTW NewtsGash
Since when does a “broad consensus in the world” over waterboarding , have anything to do with US law ?
October 30th, 2007 at 8:56 pmNewsflash sez:
Look, the assessment of your personal qualities from the “despised leftist robot” is spot on.
Go figure.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:59 pmDoes anyone recall which comedian said, “If God creates jackasses, He broke the mold with youâ€. It’s a quote I like to use but I can’t remember who to credit. Thanx.
Comment by pete — October 30, 2007 @ 8:54 pm
Sounds like George Carlin. I don’t know for sure, but it’s the kinda thing he’d say.
October 30th, 2007 at 8:59 pmNewsflash sez:
Well, it looks as if this troll has finally melted down. Pity.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:00 pmWell, dumb_tch, the subject isn’t Bush.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
gummitch’s subject wasn’t Bush, it was torture.
Maybe you’ll volunteer for a little demonstration of waterboarding, to show us how it’s not torture?
Then you might be sure.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:00 pm#98 Snoozeflash:
Mukasey has done a good job answering questions….
Typo there: “Mukasey has done a good job not answering questions.” No charge.
… Keep in mind, he’s not required to answer all of them.
And they’re not required to confirm him. No pigs in a poke.
Cheers,
October 30th, 2007 at 9:04 pmThe Repubs have really mastered the “hypothetical question” dodge, much as they have mastered the Ronald Reagan “I do not recall” dodge when it comes to their criminal behavior.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:04 pmWell, dumb_tch, the subject isn’t Bush
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
But Bush ordered torture, and appointed the guy that now says it isn’t torture, so why isn’t it about Bush?
October 30th, 2007 at 9:04 pmComment by MCMetal — October 30, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
Because International Law has a stake in this as well.
McSlush, go f yourself.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
Only that which we have signed , shithead ……….Like the Geneva Treaty , which we have , and does adamantly say that waterboarding is indeed torture …….That proof enough for you , skid mark ?
BTW
As far as your suggestion : Then what would your poor sister do ?
October 30th, 2007 at 9:04 pmBesides cry nightly , I mean………
Look, I’m taking an assessment of my personal qualities from a despised leftist robot. Go figure.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
And we’re supposed to listen to a despised rightist robot? Go figure!
McSlush, go f yourself.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
We would say the same to you, but clearly your father has beaten yourself to it!
October 30th, 2007 at 9:05 pmWell, dumb_tch, the subject isn’t Bush
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
But Bush ordered torture, and appointed the guy that now says it isn’t torture, so why isn’t it about Bush?
Comment by republicans hate facts — October 30, 2007 @ 9:04 pm
And my comment was about a Bushie, not about Bush. But anything to avoid actually addressing the issue.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:08 pmComment by gummitch — October 30, 2007 @ 8:53 pm
Well, dumb_tch, the subject isn’t Bush.
Look, I’m taking an assessment of my personal qualities from a despised leftist robot. Go figure.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
As opposed to being told you are terrific by a hypocritical closeted homsexual from the horseshit GOP ?
Yeah , imagine that………
BTW
You’re a coward for addressing a lady like that.
You’re lucky this is an anonymous board ; and we know that’s the only reason a little mary weasel biatch like yourself posts something like that in this type of forum alone …. Because you’re too chickenshit in real life and because you’d be subsequently obliterated ………
October 30th, 2007 at 9:10 pm#99 Snoozeflash:
I’m not sure if there’s broad consensus in the world that waterboarding is torture,….
“… and I’m not sure that there really is global warming, and, to be perfectly honest, it certainly is possible that the Earth is only 6000 years old….”
Waterboarding is perfect (see 7:29PM comment); it “works”, and voila!,it leaves no marks! No more of this rubber hoses to the bottoms of the feet stuff; we’re scientific about it….
Cheers,
October 30th, 2007 at 9:11 pmP is adept at skirting the issues, as well as wearing skirts. this is the same coward who will have nothing to do with actually defending the USA from terrorists; he’d rather defend the terrorists and pledge blind fealty to traitors like Bush’s nominees. I can’t wait for the trials and the mass executions that will need to take place to clean the world of these Nazi wannabes who have infested our government with their filth and perversion.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:11 pmLive blogging of the prez debates on the Zoo.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:12 pmToasterhead, I should have said the comedian who isn’t George. Dang, I’m gonna lose sleep over this one.
Newsflash, again with the “leftist”? I hate to burst your bubble but I sincerely doubt there’s a single leftist in the U.S. You seem to share your partiy’s belief in intangible enemies.
You also seem ignorant of one of the highest ideals of Western Civilization. Since the Dark Ages we have moved towards more humane treatment of helpless prisoners. It’s about all we can do to prevent our military captives from being chopped up for stew meat. It doesn’t always work. Some people are more brutal than others.
But, think on this. If you, heaven forbid, found yourself in the hands of a terrorist group, or foreign power, wouldn’t you feel safer if the whole world knew that WE, the United States of America, DOES NOT ABUSE PRISONERS?
October 30th, 2007 at 9:16 pmAs he was the Chief U.S. District Judge for the District of New York, you should know that’s just one element of his impressive resume. He also has experience dealing with rigorous, demanding terrorism cases.
When do you plan on taking no for an answer? Why won’t you let this man serve this country’s arm of Justice? He only wants to protect you.
Attorney General Michael Mukasey (sel): A great nominee.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:31 pm
If you call a “great nominee” one who let a TERRORIST go free. One that worked for the FBI and the Bin Ladens simultaneously.
http://www.nowpublic.com/ politics/ bin-ladens-spy-and-judge-mukasey
But a Chickenhawk like YOU, who won’t fight for the WAR and “president” he believes in, WOULD think this TRAITOR was “great”.
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
October 30th, 2007 at 9:22 pmLook, I’m taking an assessment of my personal qualities from a despised leftist robot. Go figure.
Comment by Newsflash — October 30, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
I’ll thank you not to refer to Twiki that way. :mad:
October 30th, 2007 at 9:22 pmToasterhead, I should have said the comedian who isn’t George. Dang, I’m gonna lose sleep over this one.
Comment by pete — October 30, 2007 @ 9:16 pm
No luck on WikiQuote or Google, though the latter did come up with this useful tip:
Let’s just say Lewis Black. It’s his kinda line, too.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:27 pmMukasey wants to put waterboarding in the American prisons.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:27 pmThis is a waste of time, he is appointed by the WH, commonsense tells you nothing has changed except the name on the door.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:39 pmThis kind of rhetoric reminds me of what happened after the fall of Rome.
The advances of aquaducts, sewer systems, roads, etc disintegrated, and peoples’ lifestyles regressed.
We used to be far more civilized toward prisoners, but it seems America is falling, and we are once again being plunged into a dark time.
Sad indeed.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:39 pm#89 Newsflash
I personally don’t find see waterboarding itself to be torture, since there’s not much in the way of short/long-term damage to be done from such an event, though I have my reservations.
That’s not the definition of torture. Torture is defined by international law as “any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.”
“Damage” doesn’t enter into it. It’s about pain or suffering, in whatever form, that compels a person to do or say something that he is otherwise adamantly opposed to doing. It’s about forcing someone by making conditions intolerable. Waterboarding does that. Fear of drowning is not something you can psyche yourself out of. It’s an extreme and involuntary panic state that you have no control over.
If you don’t understand what’s being discussed, bow out of the discussion.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:58 pmWell, it looks like our troll scurried back under it’s bridge. Or, maybe, Mommy made it go to bed?
October 30th, 2007 at 10:07 pm“I personally don’t find see waterboarding itself to be torture, since there’s not much in the way of short/long-term damage to be done from such an event, though I have my reservations.”
More nonsense. To anyone with a lung embolysm, waterboarding is a death sentence.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:18 pmslightly pedantic here, but
michael
mukasey has answered more
fully on whether he thinks
waterboarding is torture — and. . .
wait for it. . . he. . .
isn’t certain.
but what he does say is that
it would violate various military
codes, and the geneva convention
and the fifth amendment. . . so, he
is in essence saying, if asked about
a specific case or controversy, he would
likely rule that the practice is unlawful, re-
gardless of whether we call it “torture.”
i know — a lot of lawyer-b.s. — but there you
have it. and that is probably the only answer
he’ll give — in various formulations. so — is it
enough to get him confirmed?
i doubt it.
sen. leahy’s reaction is at
that link, as well as the full-
searchable, easy text version
of mukasey’s oct. 30, 2007 letter.
p e a c e
October 30th, 2007 at 10:28 pmLive blogging of the prez debates on the Zoo.
Comment by Zooey — October 30, 2007 @ 9:12 pm
Hillary screwed up royally on the NYS drivers’ license question, but overall, she ran away with the debate tonight. She was clearly the debate winner tonight…The only adult on that stage.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:37 pmShe was clearly the debate winner tonight…The only adult on that stage.
Comment by Exley — October 30, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
And your opinion carries all the weight of a slug around here. Nobody here gives a shit what you think turd.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:41 pmShaybe…Shhhhhhh….Adults are talking here.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:50 pm#138 Exley spouts some miasmatic efflux….
Hey Exley, when we want to take advice from some stoopider’n'hell Dubya-butt-sucking sycophantic RW foamer LimBot parrot, we’ll let you know … or buy a case of Jack and start drinking ourself to death or at least until the horrid notion goes away. M’kay? Now FOAD.
Cheers,
October 30th, 2007 at 11:54 pm </