Giuliani Cites Faulty ‘Facts’ From Right-Wing Magazine To Slam ‘Socialized Medcine’
Giuliani Cites Faulty ‘Facts’ From Right-Wing Magazine To Slam ‘Socialized Medcine’
In a new radio ad running in New Hampshire, GOP presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani cites his own experience with prostate cancer to warn against the dire consequences of government-provided health care, which he terms “socialized medicine”:
I had prostate cancer, five, six years ago. My chance of surviving prostate cancer, and thank God I was cured of it, in the United States: 82 percent. My chances of surviving prostate cancer in England: only 44 percent under socialized medicine.’
Listen here:
Giuliani’s ad is full of misleading right-wing claims that overhype the broken U.S. health care system. A look at his “facts”:
– Giuliani cites inaccurate statistics. While the rate for men with prostate cancer is slightly higher in the United States, the five-year survival rate in England is actually 74.4 percent according to the Office of National Statistics in Britain.
– Giuliani relies on unsourced figures from a right-wing think tank. Giuliani’s campaign confirmed that it obtained its faulty numbers from an article entitled “The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care” in the right-wing quarterly magazine City Journal, which is an arm of the conservative Manhattan Institute. As MSNBC notes, the author of the “Ugly Truth” article provided no sources for his “facts.” The Manhattan Institute receives funding from multiple pharmaceutical companies.
– Giuliani uses a weak measurement of comparison. Cancer experts note that mortality rates, which “show the number of people who actually die from the disease,” may be better measurements than five-year survival rates. Under this comparison, the two countries are even closer: “Age-standardized prostate cancer mortality rates are 15.4 per 100,000 people in the United Kingdom and 12.0 per 100,000 in the United States, according to the American Cancer Society.”
The right wing consistently touts U.S. health care as the world’s finest. In an Aug. 3 op-ed, Giuliani wrote, “America has the best medical care in the world.” President Bush has claimed that the United States has “the best health care system in the world.” But in reality, the U.S. health system “spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance,” notes the World Health Organization.
Instead of complaining about Britain and bragging about America, Giuliani should turn his attention toward improving the U.S. health system. According to a CNN poll from May, 64 percent of the public believes the government should provide universal health care.
The Center for American Progress has put together a progressive plan to guarantee every American quality, affordable health coverage. View it HERE.
UPDATE: As Ezra Klein notes, Giuliani “received his care for prostate cancer while still mayor of New York, which meant he was probably receiving insurance through the state of New York, utilizing one of those government-regulated purchasing pools he terms ’socialism.’”
UPDATE II: Greg Sargent points out that The New York Times asked Giuliani spokeswoman Maria Comella whether the campaign would continue to repeat the faulty statistics and continue to run the ad. Commella replied, “Yes. We will.“
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76 Responses to “Giuliani Cites Faulty ‘Facts’ From Right-Wing Magazine To Slam ‘Socialized Medcine’”
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Giuliani is a lying thug? I’m shocked I tell you, shocked.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:44 pmmore like “A shady repub candidate quoted shady ‘facts’ from a shady right-wing magazine? I’m shocked I tell you, shocked.”
October 31st, 2007 at 1:49 pm“But in reality, the U.S. health system “spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance,†notes the World Health Organization.”
The US ranks 37. Just to see how bad this is, try to name 36 countries off the top of your head.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:51 pmGhoulianni was receiving ’socialized medicine’ for his own prostrate cancer? This is so typical of someone who graduated from MSU. (Make Shit Up).
Don’t ask, don’t smell. This just doesn’t pass the smell test.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:52 pmDistortions, lies, from the ReichWingers? Nah could never happen. (jerks)
According to the Fascist Pigs, everyone is getting the medical coverage they DESERVE, in other words, as long as THEY have FREE Healthcare, then things are just fine and dandy.
Buck Fush
October 31st, 2007 at 1:52 pmWhen everybody in the United States has access to the same quality healthcare that Rudy did for his prostate cancer, then Rudy will be worth listening to.
Until that time, he’s just a buffoon with no concept of the realities other people face. Just as when he compared himself to torture victims. And 9/11 firefighters and police officers. And 9/11 cleanup workers.
Keep talking, Rudy. Every time you open your mouth, you lose credibility, and more people see you for what you really are — a guy kind of like Dilbert’s pointy-haired boss.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:55 pmCome on, people, Guiliani is correct. We should not have socialized ANYTHING in this great cradle of capitalism. Next think you know you America hating progs are going to want other socialized services like:
the military
police
fire fighters
political representation
In this great country of ours we should all work hard (or be born lucky or marry well) so we can AFFORD those services. If you don’t have the money, then that’s because of your own lack of personal responsibility. You’ll just have to suffer the consequences - islamofacists making you wear funny clothes, thugs stealing your stuff, a forest fire burning your home, and no “earmarks” for your personal projects. Oh, and you might die, too.
/snark off
October 31st, 2007 at 2:01 pmHey it’s all socialism until it affects you. Rudy is a jerk!
October 31st, 2007 at 2:01 pmYou cannot claim that this country has a health care system if millions of its citizens have no such coverage.
And the last time I checked, health coverage for people who can actually get it keeps getting worse and worse as the years go by.
But how would big shots like Rudy ever know this? People like him get coverage that’s a hell of a lot better than the working person’s. That’s what I love about these arguments, the idiots who claim that the system is fine are the ones who have the best coverage available. They don’t even need that sort of coverage.
Even if he had the average person’s lame health plan, Rudy could have taken the financial hit that his cancer treatment would have caused. But regular people like me and my family, we might have to declare bankruptcy.
Yea, great system!
And please, spare me the personal responsibility bit, and quit sticking up for rich people. It’s really pathetic.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:02 pmWhen will the “Librul” media begin to rightfully ridicule Rudy Giuliani for being a ridiculous serial exaggerator?
October 31st, 2007 at 2:04 pmDon’t hold your breath.
What?????
America’s Mayor — lying to us???
Oh, the humanity.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:04 pmThe right wing consistently touts U.S. health care as the world’s finest. In an Aug. 3 op-ed, Giuliani wrote, “America has the best medical care in the world.†President Bush has claimed that the United States has “the best health care system in the world.â€
——————————————————–
There is a big difference between the quality of a health care delivery system and the quality of the health care itself.
Giuliani was probably correct when he said that America has the best medical care in the world. As far as the quality of the actual health care itself, we’re in the pack of countries at the top of the list. We have wonderfully educated and experienced physicians, state of the art hospitals and medical equipment, and cutting edge pharmaceuticals. However, countries with “socialized” medicine (a label used by the rightists for Universal Health Care) also have excellent state of the art health care.
On the other hand, Bush saying that we have the best health care SYSTEM in the world is a lie. Either that, or Bush sees every American getting what he gets — free health care with no hassle. Even if you removed Bush from his family’s wealth, stuck him in a blue collar job with a blue collar paycheck, gave him a pre-existing condition (like diabetes or high blood pressure), and left him to fend for himself, he probably still wouldn’t get it.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:05 pmPerhaps he is correct in this statement (matter of opinion) but it’s a complete strawman argument. The problem has never been the quality of health care just access to it.
“America has the best medical care in the world if you can afford to pay.†would be more accurate.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:08 pmRemember:
Government provided health care is only good enough for the armed forces, congress, and the President.
I’m sure they all hate it, and wish they could have an HMO paid out of pocket instead.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:11 pmExactly Nigel!
October 31st, 2007 at 2:12 pmDid Fruity Rudy lose his mind before or after 9/11?
October 31st, 2007 at 2:16 pmComment by DennisRaines — October 31, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
That only applies to the active armed forces.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:17 pmI peeked at the Center for American Progress’s “progressive plan” available through the link above and was curious about what would happen if the employer-sponsored insurance available to an employee either had a huge deductible (cash out of pocket) or was sup-par and didn’t cover things the employee needed covering?
Would an employee be allowed to opt out of that employer-sponsored insurance and opt in to a group insurance pool (like those in Congress and federal employeed have)?
If you’re self-employed would you be able to opt in to this group insurance pool?
In a way, isn’t that we have already for those who itemize deductions? Medical expenses over 7.5% are deductible, no?
Not sure how much of an improvement that plan is. Don’t mean to be negative!
All I know is that people seem to have crappier and crappier plans and are paying higher and higher deductibles getting less and less coverage!
At least the plan would guarantee actually GETTING covered I suppose.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:20 pmbefore
October 31st, 2007 at 2:24 pmOT - Sorry
October 31st, 2007 at 2:25 pmAnother rat is jumping ship.
Karen Hughes is leaving State Dept.
And Prostate cancer?
October 31st, 2007 at 2:29 pmSince it is largely a disease of older men, isn’t a high percentage of the treatments in the US under Medicare–i.e. socialized medicine?
Who cares how much better chance we have in America, RIGHT? What are you thinking? TP just showed us that our current system gives Americans a better chance to survive then socialist medicine. And you want to switch? That is just cruel!
October 31st, 2007 at 2:30 pmWhat you have to understand is that the average blue collar Republican voter doesn’t really care how innefficient and wasteful our healthcare system is. Sure, they feel it would be great to give everyone healthcare, but they are not willing to concede any of their independence to do so. Now, you and I both know this is ridiculous and that universal coverage will require little more than a tax increase which will in the long run save most people money. However, they think that anything “socialized,” must require massive government intervention. Under socialized medicine, they think that they will be sent to massive treatment compound where they will wait in line behind 200 other people to see a sub-par physician who only knows them by their SS#. All we need do is dissolve this illusion and universal healthcare will become a reality.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:32 pmGiuliani worries me. He’s so hawkish and has way too many connections to Bush.
The latest, Joe Allbaugh, “who was chief of staff to George W. Bush in the Texas governor’s office, is joining his campaign as a senior adviser on general strategy and homeland security.”
Allbaugh is the one who brought ‘Brownie’ into FEMA (and helped unleash Bush onto the world!).
“The endorsement is valuable for Giuliani because it gives the former New York mayor additional entrée to the Bush-Cheney organization. Allbaugh was one-third of the “Iron Triangle†of Allbaugh, Karl Rove and Karen Hughes, the powers-that-be in the president’s original Austin-based presidential campaign.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6611.html
Allbaugh is also on the board of the NRA which Rudy is now embracing in a big bear hug. He used to be tough on guns but…
October 31st, 2007 at 2:34 pmI wrote a blog post on this issue yesterday, please check it out at http://www.standingbeforethefire.com
It is pretty amazing that he is using his tragedy to make sure people with little money can’t afford the high quality health care he received which saved his life.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:36 pmTP just showed us that our current system gives Americans a better chance to survive then socialist medicine. And you want to switch? That is just cruel!
Comment by Roger_Roger — October 31, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
These statistics do no such thing Rogerx2. The difference in survival rates could be due to the health care system, to the health care procedures, to the tendency of some men to seek early diagnosis and others to wait, to diet, or to a host of other factors. Only controlled studies could tease out the causal factors. It is highly possible that our American technology, combined with a preventative socialized medicine delivery system would actually result in even lower mortality rates. Wouldn’t it be cruel not to try?
October 31st, 2007 at 2:41 pmour current system gives Americans a better chance to survive then socialist medicine.
Comment by Roger_Roger
what is “socialist medicine”?
October 31st, 2007 at 2:49 pmp.s.—better get back under your bed before the scary iranians get here!
I find it apalling that he could use his reasoning and the people who cannot afford the same type of health care as he did are the ones that are going to support him until the end…
October 31st, 2007 at 2:51 pmugh…
Hillbilly you are being a bad little troll and are going to get kicked out of here for namejacking.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:54 pmIf our health care is so good how come in 2005 we ranked 32nd for females and 33rd for men in “Life expectancy at birth”?
http://www.who.int/whosis/en/index.html
October 31st, 2007 at 3:05 pm“The Fraser Institute is dedicated to attacking publically funded health care, education and insurance. It now also is disseminating propaganda intended to minimize the effects of global warming.”
http://buckdogpolitics.blogspot.com/ 2007/ 02/ fraser-institute-canadas-disgrace.html
October 31st, 2007 at 3:06 pmShayne, you are confusing me. Some of your posts are starting to make sense.
Comment by TCDon — October 31, 2007 @ 2
Very funny TCDon, maybe it isn’t hillbilly and it’s you instead? I don’t think so, just kidding, hah.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:06 pmTDCon,
You’re on a roll here. Could you brief us on MRSA?
If our health care is the best in the world, why are we closing schools and getting infections from super-bugs here?
October 31st, 2007 at 3:10 pmIn that poll, 64% of Americans favor government-provided universal healthcare in spite of the fact that they have always been misled into believing that it will cost them more.
Single-payer government-provided universal healthcare as proposed by Kucinich (not Hillary, Edwards, or Obama) does not cost but SAVES $250 billion each and every year administratively-alone.
That is why every other developed country in the world has it. That is why no country in the world wants the US system. The US system spends at least twice as much per capita as anyone else, has 47,000,000 with no healthcare, more who sometimes have no healthcare, and more who have healthcare insurance but cannot have healthcare because they cannot afford the deductible and co-pay.
Doesn’t having by far the most expensive system and winding up 37th in the world tell you something?
October 31st, 2007 at 3:13 pmHeaven forbid that in Britain they’re actually trying to keep costs down for their taxpayers and trying to manage their health programs. Most “employer-sponsored” health plans available to Americans don’t cover fertility programs at all (or plastic surgery for crying out loud!).
Love to rebut all of those right-wing talking points but I actually have some work to do…
October 31st, 2007 at 3:15 pmThe Brits will only go to the US or anywhere else for treatment because it’s cheaper. Same for those of us who go to France for cheaper dental treatments. The U.S. health insurance system still sucks though. I can walk into any hospital right now and get immediate treatment without showing any identification, and not worry about a massive bill, as can anyone else here — foreigner or resident.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:21 pmThe British system was harmed by the Conservative Party rule of Margaret Thatcher and John Major from 1979-97. They did not adequately fund it. I had a lot of experience with their system when I lived there both before Thatcher (it was fine) and during Thatcher (declining).
At any time, their system is far superior to the US. And cheaper. Even though the British diet and lack of exercise are worse than Americans, studies show they are healthier in every category due to their healthcare system
October 31st, 2007 at 3:24 pmNamejacking is the bane of this site. See ya all when TP figures out how to manage a site.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:24 pmYour health plan is unnecessarily complex and bends over backwards to keep private insurers in business. HR 676 is a far better plan. Insurance profiteers are a cancer. Cut them out, don’t try to live with them.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:31 pmI keep hearing about Canadians travelling south to get healthcare. Of course it happens. Yours is a for-profit system so whoever has the money can have the healthcare. Those who can’t afford it still get healthcare, can you say the same in the U.S.?
Any system that provides aid to the entire population will have lineups. It’s inevitable. The only other choice is to not provide healthcare for all. So when you’re in need of care in Canada it can be quicker to go to the U.S. and pay for a doctor rather then waiting in Canada. I personally have never done it. My Father had cancer and was treated in Canada under our system without any undue waits. They move really fast when it’s something like that. And everyone who needs treatment gets treatment. Those that can afford it have the world at their doorsteps and can travel anywhere to get whatever care they choose at any price. But we’re talking about providing healthcare to an entire population. Given that as your goal which system is providing it today, the Canadian system or the U.S. system?
btw, if U.S. healthcare is so affordable & equitable why do so many Americans come up to Canada to buy their prescription drugs? I only ask because Canada’s system is routinely faulted because some Canadians travel south for healthcare. If that’s a fault of our system then buying drugs in Canada is a sure sign something is wrong with the U.S. system. Especially when you consider the manufacturer of those drugs is exactly the same on both sides of the border. Go figure.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:43 pmBiden got it right last night - Rudy’s a classic “bull$hit artist whose vocab consists of a noun, a verb, and 911. How this man can be running (and a Repuke frontrunner to boot!) for office is beyond anyone’s logical comprehension.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:45 pmThere is a good reason the Germans have had single-payer, government-run, universal healthcare SINCE 1883!!!
Nowhere is it written that we have to take Canada’s system or the British system. We should take the best system in the world and then improve on it. That is the way a democracy is supposed to work. That is progressivism.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:50 pmSo tell us TCDon, how does 50 million Americans rationed out of ANY health care, compare to the British system? How does insurance companies denying services to patients to cut costs (rationing) compare to the British? How do America’s health costs compare to those in Britain?
October 31st, 2007 at 4:15 pmLONDON, April 7, 2006 (UPI) — Britain’s National Health Service is advising general practitioners to refer fewer patients to specialists and to restrict patients’ access to a second opinion.
Comment by TCDon — October 31, 2007 @ 3:09 pm
Most insurance companies in the US already ration this sort of behavior - are you saying that the US Insurance system is screwed because you don’t like this form of rationing - as you imply the British one is?
Poor stupid little ‘tards! You always look so ignorant and ill informed when you just post propaganda!
October 31st, 2007 at 4:19 pmBritons being denied treatments, TCDon…?
Sounds like *their* system is becoming more like *ours*.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:24 pmIf we don’t care for our citizens when they are well, we will pay much, much more when they become sick. We may be able to crow about our lower cost and stuff, but in the long run, we will all pay for it in the end.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:40 pmGood point rhf. I have full insurance, costs $300 per week. But my well care is limited to $100 per year. Since mammograms cost about $600 when they’re out of the system I ended up paying $500 on top of my $250 deductible. Then for every medication I have ot buy that is non-generic I have to pay $25 each. So I end up having to ration my own healthcare, I don’t have to wait for the government to do it.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:41 pmThe usual complaints about single payer, universal systems fail for the following reasons:
1. The systems care for the entire population of the country. There are no uninsured.
2. The systems provide better overall care for the citizens of their countries. All industrialized countries have a universal system but for the United States. All of these countries perform the United States when it comes to WHO standard measures of health care such as longevity, infant mortality and so forth. Indeed, the US ranks 33 with in the same general category as Cuba.
3. All universal health care systems cost significantly less on a per capita basis than that of the United States. GET YOU FU__ING FOOLS. THEY COVER EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY WITH BETTER HEALTH RESULTS AND FOR SIGNIFICANTLY LESS EXPENDITURE THAN THE US.
4. A universal system does not mean that the government will make all the decisions for the citizens. France and Germany provide excellent examples. BUT WHY DO YOU IDIOTS THINK THAT YOU OR YOUR PHYSICIAN HAVE CONTROL OVER YOUR CARE AS IT IS? INSURANCE COMPANIES REQUIRE PRE-APPROVAL OF PROCEDURES; DEFINE MANY COMMON PROCEDURES AS EXPERIMENTAL TO AVOID PAYING; LIMIT THE ABILITY FOR SECOND OPINIONS, REQUIRE THE USE OF IN SYSTEM HOSPITALS, DOCTORS AND SPECIALISTS; DROP CUSTOMERS FROM THE PLAN AFTER SIGNIFICANT ILLNESS OR CONDITIONS APPEAR; AND RETROACTIVELY REVIEW POLICIES WHEN SIGNIFICANT COSTS ARISE TO FIND A REASON TO REFUSE COVERAGE. SOME CHOICE.
5. The current system ads to manufacturing costs making our industries noncompetitive. The current system leads to lawsuits over product liability, car accidents and other issues to apportion responsibility for those costs between competing insurance companies. DID YOU IDIOTS EVER THINK THAT ONE REASON THERE ARE LESS “FRIVOLOUS” LAWSUITS IN OTHER COUNTRIES BECAUSE HEALTH CARE IS NOT AN ISSUE. Indeed, more than half the bankruptcies in this country arise because of medical debt.
However, these small minded fools will try to spread the lie that the US provides the best health care system in the world. IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT WE PROVIDE THE BEST QUALITY WHEN MILLIONS LACK ACCESS BECAUSE THEY ARE UNINSURED.
These simpletons attempt to convince us that millions flee for US medical care from these foreign countries. Indeed, there is little evidence to support that conclusion. PEOPLE FROM THE US ARE BEING SENT TO THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES NOW FOR HEALTH CARE TO REDUCE THEIR COSTS.
Rudy got an operation for prostrate cancer. The operation was done using techniques developed by European doctors. It was paid for by his state coverage. Most Americans getting such an operation would have had it under the socialized system of Medicare.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:47 pmChances of survival in US if you DON’T have health insurance and therefore never get it diagnosed = ZERO PERCENT.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:47 pmGood Lord, would someone please fix that headline typo: MEDCINE.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:50 pmJMOHR: “Rudy got an operation for prostrate cancer.” - - Ahh, so you ARE Archie Bunker!
October 31st, 2007 at 4:51 pmOk TCDon, how many Americans are uninsured? How many is ok by you? What is it worth to you to have universal healthcare for all? Or do you care, so long as you’ve got yours? I’ll bet my taxes are not any more then yours are after you factor in your cost of personal healthcare. And I’ve never hit a ceiling where I was denied any treatment or had to pay anything.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:55 pmBadmoodman: Thanks for pointing out my typo.
TCDon: You say that the British system has not worked out well. Please indicate the statistics that support this conclusion. I would like to see a comparison of the same statistics used to rank the quality of health care and results by the WHO. If you believe that these are an inappropriate measure, then provide those relevant points of measurement that you feel would be more appropriate.
Please, there are millions of lives at stake here. Please, do not tell me that you base your entire analysis of this issue on broad generalizations which are not supported by objective fact, anecdotal evidence or Rudy’s prostate.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:02 pmEven if it is true what Giuliani says, although it is provern otherwise, millionaire Giuliani should not use himself as an example to compare the British and American health systems.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:08 pmSimply, he can afford the best health,such approach is a selfish one because that is not the case with the majority of Americans, of which over 40 millions and their dependents do not even have any kind of health coverage.
Tell us TCDon, if you don’t have insurance and you only get treatment at an emergency room when you have symptoms, what do you think the survival rate of prostate cancer is? I’d say when you have symptoms like that it’s too late.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:08 pmThe only abuse I have seen and I file Medicare claims is when a hospital or physician overcharges and Medicare doesn’t have enough staff to catch it. Our system now is allowing the hospitals and pharmaceutical companies to over charge for their care. Rarely can someone do competitive shopping with healthcare.
England has a wonderful system, having lived there for awhile, one is allowed to choose your own physician or use available services. Care is NOT months in waiting, you can travel to another district for a service that is not quickly available close to you. Financially the doctors are not hurting as the myth is portrayed here.
England’s National Healthcare has been around since 1944 and we here in America need to learn from them, design our own.
You know the Netherlands offered their expertise on rebuilding our levees and we turned away, why do we think we can’t learn from other countries?
October 31st, 2007 at 5:17 pmI can walk into any hospital right now and get immediate treatment without showing any identification, and not worry about a massive bill, as can anyone else here — foreigner or resident.
Comment by Trojan John — October 31, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
Not true. You can only get emergency treatment. You can’t get cancer treatment, or long-term treatment, or anything else. Haven’t you been reading the news about hospitals dropping pajama-clad patients off in the streets? That’s in the USA, of all places. TCDon and all the other rightwing unevolved are more concerned about the shareholders of HMO stocks than about the ordinary citizens of the world’s richest nation, which allows thousands to die needlessly every month because of a profit-driven, corrupt system, called the Free Market. The Free Market is a myth propogated to make the rich richer, and kill the poor. It only exists as a rightwing lie, and will never exist as long as there are greedy people in any society. Wingnuts have long ago abandoned their morals and consciences when it comes to money and control, so they will bend and twist the truth to fit their narrative, and, when that doesn’t work, and when they’re shot down in flames like TCDon has been today, then they will lie outright, as Giuliani very comfortably does, having practiced lying all of his life. By destroying the GOP and burying its corpse next year, we will start on the road to a truly civilized society, one that values people over profit.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:35 pmTCDon has propogated the lie that England’s health care system “doesn’t work very well at all”, a ridiculous proposition, especially compared to the American health care system, which for millions doesn’t work at all, and when it does, it is only if the insurance companies give their permission. Completely immoral and cruel, compared to England, Canada, the Scaninavian counties, or even Cuba.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:38 pmI have NEVER been able to walk into an emergency room with a sick child in 8 states I have lived in without a clerk FIRST wanting insurance or proof of payment. Maybe those who can should let the rest of us know where this hospital is.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:39 pmRecently a woman and her baby died being refused treatment and sent to a County hospital further away. Another incident a woman was bleeding internally and they sent her home. The young boy who died of MRS virus was also sent home and that was in August.
No insurance, no cash you die.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:42 pmI can walk into any hospital right now and get immediate treatment without showing any identification, and not worry about a massive bill, as can anyone else here — foreigner or resident.
Comment by Trojan John — October 31, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
Do that. Go to any hospital and tell then you’d like an annual checkup. Not because anything is wrong, but as a preventative measure. Or because your right shoulder hurts when you move your arm “this way”. You know you can’t, not without insurance or cash.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:49 pmThis debate is really silly. Just because something is socialized, doesn’t make it bad by definition. We have socialized Police. We have socialized Fire fighters. We have socialized road and public services. We have socialized education. Basically, everything that we think EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE SOME MINIMUM ACCESS TO, we socialize it. That is the ONLY way to ensure efficient use. Just like we found out in the Military - privatizing IS NOT CHEAPER.
If you think that everyone deserves access to health care, then it should be “socialized”. If you think that somehow you are better than everyone else and only you should get it, then you are against it.
What is even worse, is that if you have health insurance YOU GET SMALLER BILLS. There are adjustments taken off so insurance companies can pay less than the actual bill - this makes Doctors artificially raise the price of services to ensure they get the most out of ALL insurances. What does that mean for those without? Well, they don’t have money for insurance, but get charged 2x, 3x, even 5x or more what someone with health insurance gets charged.
Example…If insurance company #1 pays up to $50 on a procedure, and ins co #2 pays $150 on a procedure, a doctor will charge $200 or more to make sure he gets the most money from any insurance company. What ends up happening, is that the insurance companies (who slime their way out of paying many valid claims), pay $50 while someone else has to pay the full $200 or more. Sounds like a great system.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:59 pmReally dumb question about the statistics. As we know, the overall quality of healthcare is a combination of a large number of different diseases and statistics. It is very natural in comparing one country to another that country A may be ahead of Country B in stat but behind them in another. You have to compare the overall picture.
Now Ghooliani couldn’t even find one legitimate stat where USA is ahead of Canada on healthcare and has to use not only a single isolated datapoint, but a **MADE UP** *SINGLE* *ISOLATED* datapoint to prove his case ??????????????????
And when shown that his data is wrong his campaign states that they will continue to use the bad data ????????????
October 31st, 2007 at 6:14 pmThe Readers Digest reported on a procedure that was 4 times more for the patient without insurance than with insurance. The insurance makes a contract with the provider to accept x amount, but the un insured will get hit as hard as they can be.
A case I am working on now, 1 day procedure turned into 3 because of a hospital error kept him 2 more days, hospital charged Medicare and insurance $27,000.00. The hospital had the audacity to charge him an additional $770.00 after what they got from insurances.
What other company can give you horrible service and get paid mega bucks for that terrible service. And why do Americans go along with it?
October 31st, 2007 at 6:16 pmRHF, its hard to tell if I am responding to you or someone who has hijacked your name. Comment by TCDon — October 31, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
You aren’t very bright, so that’s expected.
Your premise that 50 million Americans are “rationed out of ANY health care†is false. Comment by TCDon — October 31, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
Sure they are, because they can’t afford health care. The system itself has rationed them away to cut costs and make profit! It’s the same as a universal healthcare. Either there’s money to cover everyone, or some go without - that’s rationing!
The American system clearly isn’t perfect, and the free market needs to be set free (or at least free-er) to fix it, but the British system has proven itself to not work well at all. Comment by TCDon — October 31, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
BAHAHAHA, it’s 100% free market! Dum bass! That’s the problem! You wingnuts want it ‘regulated’ so that care can decline, and patients have no recourse when their provider kills or injures them!
Even American government run health care (VA, Medicare, etc..) has proven itself to not work well and to be subject to abuse.
Comment by TCDon — October 31, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
So is the free market system, so by your definition we should do away with it because it doesn’t work well and is subject to abuse? Sorry, but your inconsistency is hard to follow junior!
As for VA, it was doing great until Bush was in charge, and the GOP wouldn’t fully fund it in congress! That’s the point! Any socialized healthcare system requires funds, just like private health care. You don’t pay, you don’t get good service. And please don’t excuse GOP mismanagement of the VA as an excuse to not have public health care - it just shows how stupid you are!
October 31st, 2007 at 6:18 pmTP must be short staffed today for trick-or-treat.
Comment by TCDon — October 31, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
While the GOP tricks America into trying to self destruct, it’s no treat putting up with your stupidity.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:19 pmGreat Britain only spends 40% per capita what we spend here in the U.S. on health care. They don’t have good health care. But their health care is far better than we would get here if we cut spending overnight by 60%. On a per dollar basis, in fact, they have much better health care than here.
So TCDon and Roger_Roger, I know you guys are dumb as a rug, but explain to me why other developed countries spending 50 to 60% of what we spend here have better health care on virtually every quantitative measure used in public health science? I know I have asked you dipsh*ts this question before, and you never answered, but please give it a try. Or try shutting up instead.
And someone made a good point on this thread that many people treated for prostate cancer in this country are done so under our own “socialized” medicine program, Medicare. Paul Krugman pointed out the same thing about the right wing talking point about hip replacement.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:32 pmI can walk into any hospital right now and get immediate treatment without showing any identification, and not worry about a massive bill, as can anyone else here — foreigner or resident.
Comment by Trojan John — October 31, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
Try it. You will get substandard treatment, and then only after waiting a very long time and enduring a lot of harassment. Not to mention the fact that SOMEONE is paying for it, and this is a really, really STUPID way to deliver health care. It costs 3 times as much to treat someone in an emergency room as in an outpatient setting for a non-emergent condition.
The stupidity of this argument is incomprehensible to me.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:34 pmLet me spell it out for the freakin’ morons: we spend twice as much money for worse care as other developed countries. Period. This has been documented many times over the years by public health researchers. The numbers are irrefutable.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:37 pmI really feel we will get Nationalized medicine, doctors are getting fed up with insurance companies when they have to wait months to be paid. Many doctors will give a discount when cash is used rather than insurance.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:50 pmI hate seeing the comments by someone like Trojan John. Gosh, hospitals do not provide medical treatment to just anyone who walks into an emergency room.
I have diabetes, I walk into an emergency room and proudly announce that I have no health insurance but would like to be treated for diabetes. Presuming that I have no acute symptoms (need a limb amputated, about to pass out in shock) the hospital emergency room will show me the door. There is no requirement for such treatment. Hospital emergency rooms are only required to put the patient into a stable condition. He/she can then be dumped on the sidewalk. Its the law fool. You should be embarrassed for being so dumb.
October 31st, 2007 at 7:23 pmYou should be embarrassed for being so dumb.
Comment by JMOHR — October 31, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
But I guarantee that Trojan John isn’t embarrassed in the least. Self-awareness is not exactly a common trait among right wingers.
October 31st, 2007 at 7:41 pmSo what exactly needs to be done to make the sacred free market system work correctly? Last time I checked, the pharmaceutical and insurance companies are making tons of money. If they’re doing so great, how come we are not??
If it was going to happen, it would have already. Quit with the free market wet dream already.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:40 pmOdd how Rudi states that Government never reduced costs and never improved quality.
- At the least the Bush Adm FDA has proven that Government used to provide quality safe foods and products. But under republican gaovernment control (lack of it) we has e coli spinish, peanut butter, tainted poisonous foods from China and mad cow in beef….
-And as far as reducing costs, Doesn’t Rudi claim to have reduced costs and as well quality in the City of New York while he was mayor?
November 1st, 2007 at 2:43 amRudy is an idiot. Survival rate for prostate cancer in the UK is at %71 in 2001.
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/ cancerstats/ types/ prostate/ survival/
November 1st, 2007 at 2:58 amRudy, Rudy, Rudy, I know they removed your front occipital lobe instead of your prostate because the shit that comes out of your mouth is that of a lobotomy patient!
Too bad they couldnt remove the part that disengages your lips so we dont have to hear your lies.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:32 pmReggie Cervantes
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