White House To Congress: Confirm Mukasey Now, Ask Questions About Torture Later
White House To Congress: Confirm Mukasey Now, Ask Questions About Torture Later
During today’s White House press briefing, Press Secretary Dana Perino brushed aside lawmakers’ concerns about Michael Mukasey’s views on torture, urging them to quickly confirm him as attorney general. “Once he is confirmed, then the Congress has the capability to ask him to come to Congress and to testify on all sorts of matters, including this one,” she said.
But this technique — confirm now, question later — immediately raised red flags with reporters, who pointed out that if Mukasey becomes attorney general, the Bush administration would likely block him from answering questions in the future as well:
MS. PERINO: While they were saying is — which Judge Mukasey has done, is to say, I will not be able to provide a legal opinion about any particular technique. He is not read into the programs. … And once he is confirmed, then the Congress has the capability to ask him to come to Congress and to testify on all sorts of matters, including this one. […]
Q: Dana, a follow up on that. The McCain-Graham letter, on the assumption that Judge Mukasey is confirmed and is read into the program, your policy is still not to talk about specific methods, so he is, if he is confirmed, not going to be in a position to speak about waterboarding as being legal or not.
Watch it:
Perino dodged the reporter’s follow-up, replying that several lawmakers have “been briefed on the legal underpinnings and they have been briefed on the techniques. So Congress — the appropriate members of Congress have all the information that they need about these programs. They are safe, they are effective, they are tough, and they are legal.”
But in reality, the White House refuses to even define torture. In fact, key leaders in the House and Senate, including Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee John D. Rockefeller (D-WV), say they have never been fully briefed on the administration’s interrogation policies.
The White House would prefer for Congress to confirm Mukasey now and question him later — if at all. But the Bush administration’s long history of secrecy suggests that, should Mukasey be confirmed, the Senate will be able to glean no more from this Attorney General than it could from the previous one.
(HT: Salon’s Tim Grieve)
Transcript:
MS. PERINO: While they were saying is — which Judge Mukasey has done, is to say, I will not be able to provide a legal opinion about any particular technique. He is not read into the programs. He’s right now a private citizen. He is willing to serve his country. The President will say today, he is — the Attorney General is a critical member of the nation’s war on terror team, and that he needs to be confirmed immediately. And once he is confirmed, then the Congress has the capability to ask him to come to Congress and to testify on all sorts of matters, including this one. […]
Q Dana, a follow up on that. The McCain-Graham letter, on the assumption that Judge Mukasey is confirmed and is read into the program, your policy is still not to talk about specific methods, so he is, if he is confirmed, not going to be in a position to speak about waterboarding as being legal or not.
MS. PERINO: Let me remind you of something. Congress passed a law that this President signed regarding Detainee Treatment Act and also Congress said that the CIA’s program for interrogation is legal. They have been briefed on the legal underpinnings and they have been briefed on the techniques. So Congress — the appropriate members of Congress have all the information that they need about these programs. They are safe, they are effective, they are tough, and they are legal. And Judge Mukasey said that he will review all of the opinions and he will review the information he gets in his classified briefings, and that he will be able to have additional thought after that.
A lot of these discussions are held in closed session, and that’s appropriate because they’re classified for a reason.
Q Understood, but America’s allies in the world, the American people, they will never know whether or not Judge Mukasey is told, so long as the administration –
MS. PERINO: I think that’s a hypothetical that I’m just not prepared to go into right now. I don’t know what Judge Mukasey will or will not say, if confirmed.
Sort Comments By: Top Rated | Date
Dana Perino brushed aside lawmakers’ concerns about Michael Mukasey’s views on torture, urging them to quickly confirm him as attorney general. “Once he is confirmed, then the Congress has the capabilty to ask him to come to Congress and to testify on all sorts of matters, including this one,â€
Yeah, because BushCo officials have been SOOOOO willing to answer questions from Congress so far.
Damn, she really isn’t very bright, is she? But she IS a sterling example of a Bush Republican — do what you want now, worry about the consequences later. Or better yet, let someone else worry about the consequences later.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:44 pmTrust me. I promise I have the best interest of America at heart.
I know it looks like I may be hiding stuff, what with my penchant for absolute secrecy, but you’re just going to have to trust me. I am after all, the POTU, and you’re not.
I say we don’t torture, so we don’t torture..
or murder
or start wars with no evidence
or lie to you sheeple
or wipe my ass with the Constitution
or completely ignore 76% of my subjects
And after all, what can you 76%ers do about it???
HAAAAAAHAAAHHHAAAAA
Eat me America!
W.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:46 pmI don’t understand why anyone in the Democratic party would confirm this guy. It makes no sense that a Republican would either but why would any Democratic vote to confirm? What’s in it for them? It doesn’t help the country, their party or their constituents.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:46 pmSorry, but if Mukasey is confirmed I will view it as another failure of the dem congress. We elected them for a reason, and it wasn’t to stay the course.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:47 pmDemocrats have got to stick together with a resounding vote of NO and bring Mukasey and the FASCIST REPUBLICAN PARTY DOWN!
November 1st, 2007 at 6:48 pmThe torture issue is one of many issues that should be examined before Mukasey get the ‘approval’ stamp.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:48 pmI wish I could get a job based on doing an interview later, and saying “just trust me.”
November 1st, 2007 at 6:48 pmDamn, that necklace she’s wearing. Does it light up when she’s lying?Reminds me of an old Star Trek episode.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:49 pmWhimpy Mukasey: “I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.”
November 1st, 2007 at 6:50 pmAnd, and, and - Congress is to take its marching orders from Osama bin Laden, instead of the American people - per georgejr at the Heritage Institution….
November 1st, 2007 at 6:50 pmLet’s just drop a bunker buster on the White House and get it over with — because it’s beginning to seem as if there’s no other way to stop this terrorist dictator.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:54 pm…because Gonzoles was *so forthcoming* AFTER he was confirmed!
November 1st, 2007 at 6:54 pmHow dumb does she think we are. That will be locking the barn door after the cow is gone. Sorry Barbie, we’re not that dumb and aren’t going to fall for it.
Hopefully Diane Feinstein has not totally sold out because she is going to be the deciding vote.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:55 pmHopefully Diane Feinstein has not totally sold out because she is going to be the deciding vote.
Comment by bilbobaggins — November 1, 2007 @ 6:55 pm
uh oh, kiss hope goodbye.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:57 pm#8: “Damn, that necklace she’s wearing. Does it light up when she’s lying?Reminds me of an old Star Trek episode.” - - Look closer, it says “PERINO 571.” Noooooooooooo!!!!!
November 1st, 2007 at 7:00 pmI wish I could get a job based on doing an interview later, and saying “just trust me.†— I’ve done it, twice. It worked. Trust me.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:02 pm“Ask questions later??” Who is Airhead Perino kidding with this infamous line?
I think Congress should let Bush twist in the wind since it was his own appointee who was so corrupt that he was essentially forced from office by his perjury. If we had an honest AG in the first place, we wouldn’t be in this self-inflicted Bush jam that we’re in right now. It’s Bush’s fault for appointing an uneducated buffoon/personal sycophant to a position of this stature. TS Bush - now you wait and twist in the wind.
The definition of “torture” and the fact that waterboarding IS defined as torture by the Geneva Conventions becomes an very steep precipice from which this country could fall right now if we do not step up and make this man tell us what he believes.
We are about to enter the great black abyss at this pivotal moment in our history by allowing ourselves to be manipulated, once again, by the Great Pretender, GWB. He’s a known liar and is definitely NOT a man of his word. He cannot be believed and this is far too critical an issue to trust that he will do the right thing.
He’s demonstrated time and again, that he is dishonest and as corrupt as the day is long. The Chimp’s day of respect from the american people is OVER!
November 1st, 2007 at 7:05 pm#16, Yessss. Harcourt Fenton, a.k.a. Harry Mudd. Thank you!
November 1st, 2007 at 7:05 pmWe all know precisely what’s going on here. The moment a Bush appointee agrees that the waterboarding which has been noted and documented by Rummy et al IS torture and illegal, that will be the moment that GWB will be out of office and in new “lockstep” to the nearest jail.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:07 pmWhat the hell’s the big rush to have an Attorney General anyway?? We didn’t have one for the years Gonzo was in office diddling himself so why do we need one now, for cripe’s sakes??
November 1st, 2007 at 7:10 pmSoon Airhead Perino will have her bosoms out in full view to try to garner some attention. She’s a pea-brained sycophant “token female” - next PR fool, please!
November 1st, 2007 at 7:11 pmThey should label these AG hearings as “Bush’s Cover His A$$ hearings” if they really want to be truthful.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:11 pmBoy I wonder how she spews all these lies for the administration everyday and doesn’t get sick. Even the dumbest would surely began to wonder about the garbage they tell her to give out.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:12 pmHere’s the White House strategy:
1. Have Senators Specter and Graham make a little noise and grab the headlines away from the Democrats. -Done
2. Have Mukasey make a weak rejection of waterboarding saying it’s offends his conscience but still leave room for legally justifying it. -Done
3. Have Senators Specter and Graham come out and say they are satisfied with Mukasey’s response and state that he is a man of good conscience. -3/4 Done
4. Lambaste Democrats for holding up the nomination of this good man who will protect us from terrorists. -Done
5. Have the lapdog Corporate Media claim that Mukasey has satified the Democrats questions as much as he can and blame Democrats for obstructionism. -In Process
That’s how it will all go down. The really disturbing part is that lost in this whole debate over waterboarding is Mukasey’s belief in the dictatorial and anti-democratic theory of the Unitary Executive holding the principle that the President is above laws passed by Congress including the ability to spy on American citizens (domestic opposition) and the refusal to cooperate with Congressional subpoenas.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:12 pmReject the bootlicking, asskisser. It is time to take the government back and the first step is to get an AG who will appoint a special counsel to go after the thugs in the crime family.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:14 pmOne thing that’s certain: If anyone is a “bush appointee”, they clearly have their mouth muzzled under threat of their life. To imagine that this old crony would be any more forthcoming than Gonzo who gave us absolutely nothing in the way of truth, is like winning the lottery - about a gazillion to one ratio.
Give Bush nothing - he deserves absolutely nothing but loathing from the american people whom he sold down the river for his pot of gold.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:15 pmSomeone help me out here… how does the saying go?
“Something first, ask questions later”… I know this one, it’s on the tip of my tongue…
Anyone help me out?
November 1st, 2007 at 7:18 pmIs she really this stupid?
November 1st, 2007 at 7:18 pmAll in all does it really matter ? Mukasy will do whatever he is told to do exactly like Gonzalez. This confirmation is a big waste of time so the Dems can look like they are doing something. The real deal would be to bring back independence to the DOJ. Of course that would take work.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:21 pmOoops, look who’s back. plunger must be off his meds again.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:21 pmim glad ya’ll are finally seeing her for what she really is, & i dont have to wade thru a bunch of “shes hot! id do her!” comments.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:22 pmralph the wonder llama, “Shoot first, ask questions later”…
Isn’t this how we got ourselves in trouble in Iraq?
November 1st, 2007 at 7:23 pmThe drumbeat of americans’ anger is rising - not one media outlet reported on the huge anti-war protests in California this past weekend which means that these neoconartists are getting worried - and well they should be. It’s time for americans to take to the streets and stand up for what they believe. The corruption in Washington is so flagrant and rampant that there will need to be a “clean out” of the entire government in 08. None of these representatives are doing their job in representing the average american at this point. Fascism has crept into every aspect of our lives. It’s up to each of us right now to take our personal stand against the tyranny and subjugation right now in our midst. Once the tide of emotion and anger begins to move, it will sweep through Washington and this administration like a tsunami. They underestimate the will of the american people. They underestimate the fact that we will protect our democracy from our now-known “enemy within”. They underestimate the fact that they are our “public servants” and, as such, we who pay their salaries will hold the cards and pull the strings. It’s over for the criminals within - the people of this country know who they are and will search them out to bring them to the justice they deserve.
And as for the paltry group of spineless presidential candidates, I say to every american: Is this the best we can do?? If it is, then we’re in jeopardy right now. There is no one on the political radar (supposed frontrunners - which may be nothing more than an Orwellian “finger pull” by the whoring media who believe it’s up to them to decide who the candidates will be - guess again on that one, too!).
The ONLY CARD left in our deck right now is the ‘INDEPENDENT CARD’. The number of registered Indy’s is rising proportionate to the the degree of ongoing satisfaction among the populace. It’s only through numbers that the people will gain power. Registering Indy doesn’t mean that you have to vote for an Indy candidate; in fact, it only means that you are not beholden by party affiliation to either party and, as such, have the power to force the candidates to speak our language and listen to our needs. Right now no candidate is dealing with the critical issues - they’re all so afraid to be honest (we saw what happened to Hillary in the debate) that they hedge and dodge like it’s a big game of dodgeball.
Only by the sheer power of numbers will the american people begin to dialogue seriously with any presidential candidate. Only by the threat of a vote or non vote will we ever force them to acknowledge our existence.
We saw what occurred during the midterms - the Dems screwed us royally by okaying more money for the Iraq war as their first action in Congress.
Don’t be duped ever again - reserve the right to affiliate with the party which truly represents you - Register Independent today!
November 1st, 2007 at 7:26 pmBesides, isn’t Mukasy a bit “over the hill” to be even considered for a demanding post such as this? He looks 100!
November 1st, 2007 at 7:29 pmThe administration has committed the crime of torture with waterboarding…and they have instructed this little man to defend their criminial asses.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:29 pmAnyone help me out?
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — November 1, 2007 @ 7:18 pm
Shoot, it’s not coming to me… ;)
November 1st, 2007 at 7:30 pmThis ding bat says what the thugs in the crime family tell her to say…she hasn’t the sense to get out of the rain. Any female neo-conservative is a sick woman.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:32 pmBartlebee who would Bush pick that wouldn’t do his bidding ? Remember loyalty is the pre requisite for Bush not competence. I really think we are out of luck with this little dictator.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:39 pmHe’s clearly a right wing troll pretending to be a nutty liberal who is oblivious of his own SPAM’ing of the blog. He ignores the endless pleas of other bloggers to post links to his never ending pages of someone elses writing and goes right on burying the real comments and making the thread hard to read.
Which is why its clear that he’s a troll.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 7:30 pm
Bartlebee, I’ve been involved with people on the Left since the 60s and, trust me, we have our share of obsessive, self-involved nutcases that refuse any suggestion that they’re out of line. Plunger aka Ace ignores any suggestion that he limit the size of his comments or even keep them on-topic. But I believe he’s sincere and believes every word he posts; I absolutely disagree that he’s a right wing troll masquerading as an irritating Leftist.
He’s just an irritating Leftist.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:53 pmBartlebee, I agree with you but certainly wish there was an honorable person to put in place. I think Clinton went through several prior to Janice was it ? Got to admit after Waco she took the heat for the screw up. Honor in Washington is a scarce commodity.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:54 pmAnd now today the President has threatened to not name anyone if they won’t confirm this guy!
Imagine, the President is standing there telling Congress AND the American People, that if Congress won’t nominate the candidate he picks for Attorney General, then America will not GET an Attorney General.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 7:40 pm
He neglected to mention that he will hold his breath until he turns blue AND he’s taking his ball and going home.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:54 pmSO SAYS THE TP BLOG POLICE.
YOU OWN THIS JOINT?
Comment by plunger — November 1, 2007 @ 7:53 pm
He’s not alone. A number of us, at various times, have asked you for the same consideration but you refuse. It’s more than a little irritating.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:56 pmPoor Dubya, it is tough being born with a silver spoon up the ass.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:57 pmJUST SAY NO !!!! To hell with these criminals, don’t do it, it is just another lie.
Old saying - Don’t invite the Vampire into your house.
Buck Fush
November 1st, 2007 at 7:58 pmDon’t even bother responding to plunger. He’s attempting to hijack the thread into debating his conspiracy theories. His posts are intended to annoy, incite and divide. I’ve seen him singlehandedly ruin open commenting policies at many a left leaning blog. It’s been going on for several years now.
In the 60s, the government pursued a strategic policy against left wing political and anti-war activists. It’s called Triple D: Distract, Divide and Discredit. The tactic goes like this: Have an agent provocateur infiltrate an activist organization, float untenable and objectionable conspiracy theories designed to distract attention away from the real issues, make the group seem extreme and easy to dismiss and divide the group. plunger may be a modern version of this tactic. It seems odd that no matter how many times he is banned from a site he always seems to worm his way back. This of course, is just a theory, but I challenge plunger to discredit it with facts.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:01 pmPerino’s nose grows longer and longer every week.
Shame on her.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:05 pmBack on topic:
Mukasey’s nomination is probably unstoppable. Democrats and left wing blogs have once again fallen for the Specter/Graham feint left, run right routine and they have grabbed the headlines and distracted attention away from another Bush regime scheme to insulate itself from accountability and institutionalize the theory of the Unitary Executive.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:15 pm#Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007
Yes, that’s one assumption that has bothered me throughout the whole debate on waterboarding. It’s as if the whole history of US foreign policy has been wiped clean by the assertion that the US does not torture. Tell it to the El Salvadorans, the Guatemalans, the Chileans, the Vietnamese. What about the notorious School of the Americas (now renamed something innocuous and obscure)?
November 1st, 2007 at 8:20 pmDamn, that necklace she’s wearing. Does it light up when she’s lying?Reminds me of an old Star Trek episode.
Comment by Theresa — November 1, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
She reminds me of The M-113 creature (also known as the salt vampire) that hypnotized their prey that they were beautiful, and then sucked all the sodium chloride out of them.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:20 pmhere’s a question to top them all… one I sure am more concerned with at this particular time, and encompasses the torture subject:
mr. mukasey - do you believe that the president should
follow the rule of the land?
eh?
November 1st, 2007 at 8:22 pmThey did ask him that and in a classic legalese parsing way said no.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:28 pmmr. mukasey - do you believe that the president should
follow the rule of the land?
eh?
Comment by katy — November 1, 2007 @ 8:22 pm
Silly rabbit, the President IS the rule of the land.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:28 pmIt doesn’t? Explain?
Comment by michael
Why?
November 1st, 2007 at 8:42 pmSomebody tell his majesty George that the congress runs confirmations not him. Bush has been pulling his dictatorial crap for so many years he really believes he’ s in charge of the other branches. He’ll keep believing this until the demos start a real fist fight with him and he gets the fact that he is not king.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:01 pmOne point that keeps getting ignored is; the simple act of tying a captured enemy combatant to a board, or ANY other mistreatment, is in clear violation of the Geneva Conventions. No water is needed to violate international law. As a signatory, the U.S. has accepted this standard. Yet, our government is ordering this illegal act.
Oh yeah, If you want to play the “no uniform card”, here’s the problem. That exception exists so that guerrillas, saboteurs and spies can face “special prosecution and punishment’. It, in no way, implies that such prisoners may be tortured, degraded or abused in any way. And it doesn’t allow for punishment without trial. We can hang ‘em, after trial, but we can’t abuse them. Those are the rules whether the neocons accept them or not. What price, I wonder, will Americans, combatants and noncombatants, pay for the crimes of Bushco?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:04 pm” Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee John D. Rockefeller (D-WV)”
Great post, but needs a little editing…you meant “Jay Rockefeller” didn’t you?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:20 pmRight, Dana. Get him in there quick so he can start obstructing investigations right away and bolstering Bush’s claims of executive privilege and unitary executive. And let’s not forget: dragging his feet and stonewalling whenever Congress tries to get a straight answer out of him.
You know Dana, if your boss, that immature jackass who’s now throwing his public tantrums on a daily basis, had not put an incompetent lying crony in the AG seat in the first place, that seat wouldn’t be empty right now. If your dim-witted idol hadn’t let Karl Rove use Gonzales and the DoJ to help him rig elections, maybe you wouldn’t be struggling to find another incompetent patsy to fill that slot. That’s right, Ms. Mannequin. You can point that finger right back at your beloved smirking chimp.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:26 pmIt doesn’t? Explain?
Comment by michael — November 1, 2007 @ 8:19 pm
Explain what?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:30 pm#88
Now all you and the rest of the geniuses need to do is figure out what Americans did to create terrorists.
When people get good and fed up with the Americans who are occupying their country, shooting up their families, letting their infrastructure rot so that they have barely any electricity and the only drinking water they have makes them sick, they sometimes feel that their only hope is to turn to violence. I think if a bunch of Blackwater thugs tore up my loved ones with machine gun fire, just because they couldn’t get out of the way fast enough, I’d definitely be thinking payback. How about you? Would you just take it?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:31 pmNow all you and the rest of the geniuses need to do is figure out what Americans did to create terrorists.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 9:26 pm
Not much into history, dingleberry?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:34 pm#90
Meanwhile all you caring souls have declared that dropping a Koran on the floor or putting too much pepper on a prisoner’s chicken should be considered torture.
And which strawman said that? Do you have names for them?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:35 pmBeware of flying spittle.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007
List Mongoloid Pinhead, we’re not here to give you history lessons. Obviously you know nothing about anything that happened before today. Why don’t you just stick your head back up your ass so we don’t have to listen to you babble.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:37 pm#93
Well, you enjoy being lied to and pretending that your moronic president isn’t screwing you just as much as he is the rest of the country. Some of us don’t feel like putting up with it. Great reply, though.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:37 pmComment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 9:37 pm
What was your previous troll name, coward?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:41 pm#97
Now justify the USS Cole, the Khobar Towers, the Lebanon Marine Barracks, Robert Stetham, Daniel Pearl, Leon Klinghoffer, the first WTC attack etc. etc.
The people I described, the ones who turn to terrorism because of the oppressive conditions in their occupied country, because they want to hit back at the mindless cruelty that’s torn up their lives, had nothing to do with the Cole, Khobar Towers, etc. The original statement that you replied to was about how to “stop creating new terrorists.” And we’ve got a whole lot of new ones running around all over the world since Bush invaded Iraq.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:43 pm#84 Pete - you get close to a question I have: If Blackwater personnel are captured by some group in Iraq (whether it be Shia, Sunni, Insurgent, United Ice Cream Makers, whatever) - they aren’t a governmental body, they don’t have full uniform.
Would not the group be fully justified under the established rule of international law in executing them?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:44 pm#100
Why is the left always, always, always just a hair away from rage? You guys get a little English lab-monkey blood in ya or something?
Ignorance is bliss. That’s your side of the coin. We’re neither ignorant nor blissful about what’s being done to our country. But, don’t worry about us. be happy. Lay down and take it. The Constitution and freedom and all that junk is really overrated anyway, right?
November 1st, 2007 at 9:49 pmI’m, like, way into history, just as long as it’s the real thing and not the revisionist crapola which has the left blaming everything bad that ever happened on American and/or Bush.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 9:47 pm
I’d like to see you prove that anyone here ever said bad things only ever happened under Bush, or because of America.
Even a moron like you can’t deny that a lot bad has happened under Bush, and has been caused by this country.
Get a life, idiot.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:58 pmWould not the group be fully justified under the established rule of international law in executing them?
Comment by MapleStreet — November 1, 2007 @ 9:44 pm
Yes and no. These varied groups are not signatories of the Geneva Conventions. And their legitimacy is questionable at best. However, the U.S., at least, pays lip service to international law as it applies to prisoners.
A foreign Nation would be justified, under international law, in executing Blackwater personnel but not abuse them or punish them without trial. In the case of a private entity, terrorist or otherwise, the only protection prisoners have is our humane treatment of prisoners.
This doesn’t carry the, arguable, weight of law but it’s the best they’ve got. I can’t help but think of the many stories of, prisoners of war, which comment on the humane treatment from guards due to our reputation for humane treatment. I have read hundreds of anecdotes of prisoners who have been treated well by guards who were “repaying the kindness” received during their own captivity. And just as many of abuse driven by “the bastards shot my brother”.
The whole point? The one sure way to ensure barbaric behavior is to behave barbarically ourselves.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:06 pmSorry folks. I didn’t realize it was a hopeless troll. Mingolic Gibberish is an idiot.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:10 pmAs compared to…uh…a fake idiot?
Comment by Mengolick Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:06 pm
Gee, I don’t know.
:|
Are you saying you’re just faking being an idiot?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 10:14 pm
He’s way too convincing to be a fake idiot. I believe he’s the real thing.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:17 pmWhat did America do to cause the death of Leon Klinghoffer?
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:17 pm
You must be hearing things, nobody said America caused the death of Leon Klinghoffer. Who’s talking to you, Jesus?
November 1st, 2007 at 10:22 pmI don’t think they cover recent US history in homeschooling, do they?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 10:21 pm
That’s the problem with homeschooling. If your mother doesn’t know anything about history, neither will you. And then people will think you’re an idiot.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:23 pmComment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:32 pm
What’s your previous troll name?
Are you too afraid to answer my question?
November 1st, 2007 at 10:36 pmNow all I am asking for is what caused the hatred? What did America do that made the terrorists kill poor Leon or smash the WTC towers not once but twice.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:28 pm
Well with your pompous attitude and ignorance of the fact that even nonAmericans are human, if I wasn’t American I’d hate Americans. You are everything encompassed by the phrase “Ugly American”.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:50 pmMingolic Pandracob has been banned from TP, but shows up again to fling his piss-soaked sheets. What a pitiful little authoritarian.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:51 pmNext time, try reading before asking your dumbass questions.
Then you won’t look so stupid.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 10:36 pm
Oh I’m pretty sure mongoloid pinhead will always look stupid.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:53 pmThe difference ‘tween you and I is that I don’t believe that America created the hate, at least not with anything more than than the fact that we exist.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:36 pm
See, and this is WHY you’re the idiot.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:54 pmAlso how’s those talks with Vagisil coming?
:|
I heard they asked for you by name.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 10:39 pm
That’s not his name, that’s what he is.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:55 pmWhat must America do to “stop creating terrorists�
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:43 pm
Is this human colostomy bag serious? has he ever been out of his mom’s basement (which is actualy the crawl space underneath the doublewide…).
Stop killing Iraqis wholesale?
November 1st, 2007 at 10:56 pmTime to add an extra wing to Cheney’s Top Secret Torture Headquarters™.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
And then the idiot asks why they hate us. The stupidity is staggering.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:56 pmYup. Let’s read him into the “program” so he knows what lies to tell. Dana makes fascism look pretty and very ‘tea party like’ in its etiquette. Where’s the Mad Hatter and March Hare?
Transmission from bizarro world out.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:59 pmhas he ever been out of his mom’s basement (which is actualy the crawl space underneath the doublewide…).
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — November 1, 2007 @ 10:56 pm
I hope not, don’t we have enough enemies.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:00 pmWow…yet another cogent response. And this is an example of thinking progressively?
Time to change the site name.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 10:58 pm
The problem with you people is you’re not willing to make any sacrifice either. That’s why it’s impossible for you to understand why people would make the ultimate sacrifice for something they believe in. Mostly they believe you’re an idiot.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:01 pmGee ming I believe I said earlier that we’re not here to teach you history lessons. Bartlebee was even considerate enough to tell you where you could go to find the answers. Did your mommy spoon feed you every lesson in homeschool. Too bad she’s such an idiot otherwise you might already know something about the Middle East.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:05 pmUnfortunately the progress is yet another tired comparison between the suicide bomber who intends to slaughter as many as possible and the American soldier who doesn’t - Mingo
How about the Blackwater mercenaries who kill 17 innocent people for no good reason. Is that comparison easier for you to understand. No it isn’t because to you people killing brown people doesn’t count as long as you’re safe in your double wide.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:07 pmHere’s a start, why don’t you go look up our history of imprisoning Muslims. Maybe that will give you some hints.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:08 pmThe problem with you people is you’re not willing to make any sacrifice either. That’s why it’s impossible for you to understand why people would make the ultimate sacrifice for something they believe in. Mostly they believe you’re an idiot.
Comment by Shayne — November 1, 2007 @ 11:01 pm
Aren’t the diplomats complaining like crazy about having to go over there? Guess it’s pretty easy to send smoeother person’s kid to die for your sense of “honor”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ huff-wires/ 20071101/ us-iraq-embassy/
Rice Answers Anger Over Iraq Assignments
WASHINGTON — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is trying to quell a revolt among U.S. diplomats angry over attempts to force foreign service officers to work in Iraq or face dismissal.
Rice plans to send a cable to all U.S. embassies and missions abroad explaining the decision to launch the largest diplomatic call-up since Vietnam, following a contentious town hall meeting on Wednesday where angry diplomats raised deep concern about the “potential death sentence” of being ordered to work in Iraq, the State Department said.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:10 pmCan you?
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:09 pm
This probably didn’t help…
http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ United_States-Iran_relations#The_1950s_and_the_politics_of_oil.2C_a_turning_point
The United States and Britain, through a now-admitted covert operation of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) called Operation Ajax, conducted from the US Embassy in Tehran, helped organize protests to overthrow Moussadeq and return the Shah to Iran. The operation failed and the Shah fled to Italy. After a second successful operation he returned from his brief exile. Iran’s fledgling attempts at democracy quickly descended into dictatorship, as the Shah dismantled the constitutional limitations on his office and began to rule as an absolute monarch.
During his reign, the Shah received significant American support, frequently making state visits to the White House and earning praise from numerous American Presidents. The Shah’s close ties to Washington and his bold agenda of rapidly Westernizing Iran soon began to infuriate certain segments of the Iranian population, especially the hardline Islamic conservatives. Because of their eventual ascension to power during the 1979 Iranian Revolution, Operation Ajax is considered as one of the worst CIA “blowbacks” ever.
Overthrowing a democratically elected leader and installing a brutal dictator probably had something to do w/ it.
Just pointing it out for ya… (you can read, can’t you?)
November 1st, 2007 at 11:16 pmNO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,
November 1st, 2007 at 11:17 pmNO fu(king way , No…Did I say NO?
“Grant me the Chancellorship and the Prime Ministership and then it’ll work out.
Trust me.”
This country will be wrapped up in international court for decades.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:19 pmLike most government apparatchiks, the state lifers don’t mind sucking on the public teat as long as said teat resides in the fashionable west-end.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:19 pm
EXCUSSSEEEE ME, but WTF does this gibberish mean?
One gives Pinhead a specific example of why MEers might hate the US, and he assumes he can cleverly tapdance around it w/ meaningless, snide doubletalk. Alas, poor Pinhead only proves that the use of the phrase “pinhead” is not an insult, but rather an accurate description.
BTW, the US’s backing of Saddam, including giving him chemical WMD that were used against Iranians just might have something to do w/ it too, huh?
Let the snide, meaningless tap dancing begin!!!
November 1st, 2007 at 11:24 pmI know this is a wasted effort but here goes.
Why do “the terrorists” hate us?
Here’s the short version. Since “the West” decided that oil was necessary to our industrial expansion, back in the early 20th century, we have treated the oil under their land as our own. In order to ensure our supply we have installed numerous regimes, of our choosing, and maintained a continuous military presence. This, among other things, has brought two World Wars to the region. Not to mention our installing, and supporting, a colony of foreigners.
Mid-Easterners (is that a word?) are a tribal/clan oriented culture that, while not technically xenophobic, doesn’t like interference in internal affairs. Furthermore, they have a strict code of honor that is very different from our own.
We (various European nations and America) have continually interfered in their internal affairs, scorned and belittled their traditions, occupied their territory, brought war and refused to leave when asked to leave. This has been going on for, at least, a hundred years.
That is why they used to hate us.
Now? We, the United States of America is engaged in the occupation of two Sovereign Mideastern Nations. We, in response to a criminal act not directly attributable to any government, overthrew said governments and refuse to leave. Plus, we have, demonstrably, engaged in actions which violate their beliefs and international law.
This is, hardly, the whole list. And none of these reasons has any baring on the treatment of individual prisoners. That is where our code of honor comes in. Our government claims, “we don’t torture” yet we, demonstrably, do torture. What’s worse? Our “glorious leaders” refuse to acknowledge, or condemn, that torture. That puts our citizens in increased danger. Specifically the danger of being tortured out of revenge.
Satisfied?
November 1st, 2007 at 11:26 pmf you think the muslim terrorist’s need to slaughter Americans derives from the existence of Gitmo, then close the place down and prepare to explain yourself when the next American ex-pat in Saudi Arabia gets his head blown off by some guy screeching “Alahu Ackbar!â€
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:30 pm
Excuse me, Mr Pinhead? So, when other folk, like me, for example, present you w/ factual information that answers your question, you assume by ignoring said information, you’ve somehow “proven you’re right”???
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… yer a comic, right?
Tryin’ out new material for the Half Hr News Hr, right?
Ooops… too late… it’s already off the air…
November 1st, 2007 at 11:34 pmIf anyone’s hugging Bin Laden, its you guys.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 11:29 pm
W/out bin Ladin to trot out of the closet on regulary scheduled intervals, the GOOPers are SOL, if ya know what I mean.
Holy Shi-ite!!! Someone tell Bush and Bin ladin to get a room!
November 1st, 2007 at 11:36 pmIt’s an upper-middle-class twit (Python Monty TM). “No sort of sensory apparatus whatsoever”!
November 1st, 2007 at 11:36 pmTRoS and pete great concise explanations for the pinhead. As you can see now he has ignored you and by now has run off with his tail between his legs like the coward he is. When you’re homeschooled by a dolt it’s hard not to get overwhelmed with an indepth lesson.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:39 pmLike an idiot.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Not like an idiot Bart, because he is an idiot.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:40 pm“Diplomacy first” is HARD, with trolls!
OFF TOPIC: I was reading about Turkey imposing sanctions on the Kurds. How long will it be before Condi, Dana, or one of the other lil’ shrubs, announces, “Sanctions are counterproductive”?
November 1st, 2007 at 11:42 pmThis doesn’t look good for the lefties who will now need to embrace Bush for NOT killing Bin Laden.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
“Gawd, yer a staggering intellectual fraud.
In layman’s term, it means yer a stone idiot from Hell.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:44 pmOk then. No more ranting about Bush not getting OBL, agreed?
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
Right now it’s progressives that didn’t want Bush to get Bin Laden. We’re the people who told him to forget about him and go to Iraq. Nice try dumbass but you have failed. At least you’re used to failure so you should be comfortable.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:45 pmThe biggest idiot I’ve ever seen Shayne.
He’s denser than most.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
I think that prize still belongs to Mr. Pus. At least this one doesn’t seem to start pounding his keyboard in a senseless rage. Of course, that just makes it more dangerous.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:45 pmThe biggest idiot I’ve ever seen Shayne.
He’s denser than most.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 1, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
And among his peer group, that’s really says something.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:46 pmMingolic Pandracob is simply a piss-soaked troll, here to engage in mental masturbation — which he likes to accomplish while spinning in circles.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:47 pmGeez, Bartles, this guy is both stupid and desperate.
Could be Mr P, but almost has more the tone of michael.
Jaw-dropping pathetic in the end, though.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:50 pmYou seem to be having trouble formulating a cogent response beyond the usual familial jabs which are such a staple of liberals here at TP; if you need more time I will grant it to you.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:48 pm
I’m not BB but I took it upon myself to answer your, irrelevant, question at #184.
November 1st, 2007 at 11:51 pmI’m not BB but I took it upon myself to answer your, irrelevant, question at #184.
Comment by pete — November 1, 2007 @ 11:51 pm
I did too, pete, but pinhead seems to be of the opinion that if he refuses to acknowledge the answer, it doesn’t exist for his sake.
Kind of like an ostrich w/ its head stuck up its own …
November 1st, 2007 at 11:53 pmOk ok, I suppose we will have to make an exception for him, but him ONLY. We will just have to accept the hits we take from the terrorists we created by orchestrating Bin Laden’s death.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
So your position is that Bush is saving American lives by letting his BFF Osama run around making campaign videos for Republicans? You’re amazingly ill-informed, even for a Bush-fellator. So why didn’t Bush stop the 9/11 attacks? Was it treason or incompetence? Was 9 months in office not enough time to learn how to read a PDB? Or was Condi too busy shopping and playing the piano to do her job, which is keeping the Deserter-In-Chief apprised of national security developments? “Who coiuld have imagined…”
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:03 amAnd if you don’t know why Middle easterners hate the USA, then you don’t know why slaves hated their masters, or why prisoners hate their jailers. You just don’t know very much.
Would this be a good time to cease the hunt for Binny or is he a special category?
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:03 am
Adtually, it might be a good time to start the hunt for Bush’s buddy Osama. and don’t worry, Bushco cares not if it endangers more American lives. The rate they’re killing American soldiers by not protecting them or allowing them enough rest to do their jobs isn’t going to change that much if a few more Arabs are pissed off.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:06 amI finally figured this clown out.
He’s addicted to c*rcle jerking and this is how he gets people to join in.
I’d suggest you all back off. He’ll be spinning in circles for hrs here.
Talk about pathetic.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:08 amSo if you may, would you give me your opinion if you think islamic-based terrorist attacks against America would cease if the conditions under which the current muslim grievances are covered were rectified? Short of absolving any relationship with Israel, of course.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 1, 2007 @ 11:59 pm
Perhaps, in a couple hundred years. However, there is no hope if we keep exacerbating the situation. So long as we are there we keep encouraging the recruitment of more terrorists.
I’m not a Believer but one of the most true statements in the Bible is, “hate begets hate, violence begets violence”. That is a universal truth. Wars may continue if one side quits, but they can not end until one side disengages. Often that means “taking your lumps” and withdrawing while still in a position of strength.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:09 amJust flag this creep over and over again, until TP boots his butt for good.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:10 amOften that means “taking your lumps†and withdrawing while still in a position of strength.
Comment by pete — November 2, 2007 @ 12:09 am
Too late.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:10 amWould this be a good time to cease the hunt for Binny or is he a special category?
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:03 am
No and No. We should use every resource to find OBL. Then, when he’s captured, he should have a very public trial. Then, if proven guilty of his alleged crimes (lets face it, we have not been presented with a clear, legal, chain of evidence), he should be sentenced in proportion to his crimes.
Would this stop the cycle? No. But, it wouldn’t make him a martyr to the hundreds of millions of sane Muslims in the world. Simply whacking him, if he’s is still alive, would, likely, make things worse. Especially if we continue to occupy Iraq.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:17 amOften that means “taking your lumps†and withdrawing while still in a position of strength.
Comment by pete — November 2, 2007 @ 12:09 am
Too late.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — November 2, 2007 @ 12:10 am
True. I should have said, “withdrawing before our forces have been defeated in detail or damaged our position, in the world community, more than we already have”. It’s still a stronger position than what it could be.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:23 amAnd if you believe that all of the savages who would gladly murder you would do it only because of some grievance defined as “assault on arab nations†by the United States, then you are naive beyond the pale. America is no more culpable than any other nation in having a negative effect on the middle-east.
Those same muslim savages are busy killing people all over the globe, non-muslim and muslim alike. Oh sure, the media-savvy groups throw out a wide net with the words “American Crusader†on it, but that doesn’t exactly sell in places like Malaysia or Thailand where beheadings and assaults are becoming commonplace.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:11 am
there’s less truth in this screed than in a Bush presser. Pretty damn creative, to be so entirely wrong about everything! Who’s killed more people, Bush or Islamofascists? Take a guess, moron.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:26 amKeeping that presence away from our streets is the trick and those methods have gone far beyond sending out a squadron of float-planes to look for the enemy fleet.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:23 am
Ever hear of 9/11? You sure are uninformed, besides being a liar.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:27 amAnd if the other side doesn’t accept your disengagement and decides to follow you home, wouldn’t that start the war anew?
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:23 am
Only a desperate sociopath would do “if”. If wishes were ponies, beggars would ride. If we don’t kill all the conservatives when we win the majority, won’t they just try to rape the country again?
See how ridiculous you sound? How demented your process is? You’re one sick F(ck.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:30 amWould your average Arab Muslim even accept a verdict short of not guilty, given their propensity for conspiracy theories?
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:32 am
Where do you get such foolish bullsh!t? do you make it up, or do you download it from UFOs? could you be any more stupid and irrational? These are serious questions, by the way, based on the idiocy you have just posted. How do you know that Arab Muslims have a propensity for conspiracy theories? The propensity for conspiracy theories is focussed on the white House, where WMD, Saddam and terrorists, atomic centrifuges and the like were the order of the day in cuckoo-land while trying to convince the mouth-breathers like you to allow Bushco to murder Iraqis and kill American troops for no good reason. And all the rest of your points are similarly weak, flawed and fanciful. I’m glad I’m not you. I’d starve to death forgetting where the food goes.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:40 amYou lock the front door of your pad because you want to make it as hard as possible for someone to get in “IF†they decide they want to kill you or rape you or take your stuff, even “IF†that guy may be someone you thought you could trust.
Comment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:38 am
Excellent. I haven’t locked the front door of my “pad’ in ten years. what other brilliantly stupid observations will you now grace us with, you coward?
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:41 amComment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:23 am
…9, 10.
A unilateral “cease fire” does not ensure the other side will put down it’s arms. That’s the chance you take. However, IMO a rested, fully equipped, military dedicated to protecting our shores strikes me as being a wiser path than engaging in a war of attrition. And it surely results in less blood on our hands.
The thing to keep in mind is, the “insurgents” don’t have anywhere to go. We are on their home turf and have the option of leaving.
In the case of the foreign terrorists, who have gone to Iraq specifically to kill Americans, I have seen no compelling information that leads me to believe they will “follow us home”. It’s the occupation of Muslim lands that drives the vast majority of the current crop.
Here’s the thing. It’s easy to enter Iraq. I’m sure that many of them walk. It’s hard to enter the U.S. and a strong military, not pinned down by a handful of fanatics, could make our borders more secure.
Nothing guarantees security. But, our continued occupation of Iraq, virtually, guarantees less security. History tells us this. Every, violent, clash of cultures has followed a similar course. It’s not, entirely, avoidable but it is, absolutely, predictable.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:44 am#186
Now all you have to do is explain what caused the hatred which culminated in the 911 attacks.
Nobody has to explain the hatred that culminated in the 911 attacks. There doesn’t necessarily have to be a rational explanation for it. Those were the original enemies. We went after them. Good.
Now count to ten before continuing to the next part. We need to keep some separation here.
The part where Bush and Cheney and you and the rest of the 24-percenters part ways with rational people is where Bush stopped trying to catch the people who attacked us on 9/11 and decided to invade Iraq, and then tried to make up reasons for doing it that were supposed to have some kind of connection to fighting terrorists but really didn’t.
So we have:
1) Terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 - Go get ‘em. Those are the bad guys. We want them captured and prevented from killing more innocent people. But, Bush lost interest in them and Republicans don’t care. They’re safe in Pakistan now and, since Pakistan is our friend, the Pakistanis can build nukes and harbor terrorists to their hearts’ content.
2) Terrorists in Iraq - What Bush calls terrorists are not necessarily terrorists. The ones who are killing U.S. troops might be more accurately described as insurgents. They want the U.S. out of their country. If the U.S. left, the insurgents would lose their target. The ones who are really committing acts of terrorism are more likely the Sunnis and Shias who are fighting each other for control and blowing up each other’s neighborhoods, killing lots of innocent people. We’re not going to make a dent in that. They’ll keep fighting until they’ve each got complete control of their own state.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:51 amComment by Mingolic Pandracob — November 2, 2007 @ 12:38 am
…88, 89…
You just made my argument for me. To protect YOUR house you lock YOUR door. The police station across town, or a squad two streets over, is, at best, a poor substitute. And knocking down the nearest tenement will, simply, put more potential criminals on the street.
…94…
We are well within our rights to seek out OBL or anyone accused of such dire crimes. A trial, before the whole world, may convince Muslims OBL is not a saint or martyr. Assassination, assuming he’s still alive, will almost definitely convince them he is.
…99, 100!
Whew! I done it. Now it’s time for a stiff drink and off to bed. G’night humans. You too trolls.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:59 amDumb and Dumber! I should have shut the effing machine off when I had the chance. While it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread I’ll take one quick shot at this one.
Germany had invaded all of Western Europe and we were begged to enter the fray. Iraq, Afghanistan and AQ had invaded no one and no one asked us to invade their country.
Jeepers! You could at least try to think before you screech.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:09 amLast night on this site, Plunger basically called me a weenie for mentioning the fact that a climber risks pulmonary embolism when climbing 14ers in Colorado.
What you ask does that have to do with the Bush Admin. Well this. Every time the great dub’ya interferes in the justice system or the international arena, the country risks pulmonary edema.
While the peaks here may seem quaint, weather, winds and altitude demand respect. First, anyone hoping to bag peaks must be fit. Second, peak baggers must be well informed and well equipped. Third, peak baggers must respect nature and the fact that unforseen circumstances can and will dramatically change the landscape. Nature does not tolerate recklessness.
Dub’ya, the cluck, has brazenly, in your face, defied nature in his approach to Iraq. First, this country needs to be able to stand on all fours. We must have a solid domestic agricultural, energy, immigration, health care and defense policy. We must have a solid, stable middle class. . . . a self-sustaining economy that can withstand the enormous blow that a war will inevitably entail.
Second, we must have the foresight and wearwithall to sustain the displacement of thousands of troops leaving their families behind and returning damaged. Primarily to insure that casualties are minimized and precautions are taken to insure a healthy return. For climbers, this requires first aid training, space blankets, water purification systems, communication systems (walkie talkies), extra clothing and food, compasses and headlights (of course, it’s critical to be able to read a map, know where you’re heading, and a light to shine the way.)
Third, equipped with a solid foundation and the materials to face known dangers, climbers must be prepared to face the unknown and the unknowable. Those factors would include bad weather, injury and animal attacks. Essentially, climbers must understand the terrain, weather systems and the nature of the unknown.
Our troops have been sent into a war zone with sketchy grounding. They have no idea whether their families are secure, whether their mortgages will be foreclosed or their health is adequately insured. They have been sent to patrol in areas rife with IEDs with little to no body armor, in vehicles that are absolutely not equipped. They have no compass or headlight . . . what exactly is the nature of the mission? Who is the enemy? They get held up at gun point by Blackwater thugs . . . just what is the mission? Who is the enemy?
I have seen the enemy . . . it is a shrub.
Oh yeah, Plunger, I saw a man die of pulmonary edema on Mount Elbert this summer. Colorado’s 14ers may appear benign, but they aren’t. Bush’s little “war on terror” may appear benign when McCain is shopping for rugs in the Green Zone . . . but it isn’t.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:14 amComment by BARTLEBEE — November 2, 2007 @ 1:12 am
Yeah. But, I’m done giving history lessons. I just figured I would provide one example of the troll’s lack of logic. I’m really going to bed now. G’night.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:16 amMr.Bush, You are not my president.I wish ill will upon you every single day.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:19 amThe day you die,are assassinated,or murdered,I will rejoice.You are a traitor and I hope with all my being you end up like one.
I say stockpile weapons now as well as food and plot out places in your neighborhood where you can snipe the Bush mercenaries when and if they come.Laugh all you want,10 years ago the thought that something like this was even possible was funny.I for one plan to murder as many of the traitors as I can.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:28 amBush’s exit strategy is to dig a hole so deep that any president who inherits his legacy is screwed. He’s hoping that it will be a dem.
That unlucky president will inherit the war in Iraq, the largest embassy the world has ever seen (read: HUGE White Elephant), an enormous debt, and a fed that has been printing money as if in a fire sale of the American economy, embedded GOP operatives that will be difficult to identify, much less to extricate, from all federal agencies.
It’s Machavellian . . . or just reeks of Carl Rove.
Who ever is going to face the momentous task of unravelling the evil . . . meanwhile, the shrub will be snickering in Paraguay.
Maybe, in an ironic act of rendition, he’ll be kidnapped at midnight and waterboarded by a gang of disgruntaled illegals.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:51 am#283,I am not anti gun whatsoever. And when and if the shit flies I will have no problem killing each and every one of you traitors and your families. Think what you may about libs,that is why you will never see me coming.Some of us are so sick and tired of you repugs that we use contribution donation look-ups to find you in our neighborhoods so if hell breaks loose we can get to you quickly.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:52 amJust kidding.
Your right,we know nothing about guns or explosives….silly me.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:53 am#288….The fat,stupid intern was female correct? Of course no republican would be caught like that.They enjoy sucking c&ck behind their lesbian wives backs. When you are right your right.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:58 amHey BARTLEBEE. How does it feel to be among the last remaining humans in the room? Did you know that Germany declared war on us after Japan struck Pearl Harbor? Of course you do.
I bet you also know that, following the invasion of Poland, Congress passed the Lend-lease act because, virtually, the entire world called upon us to help stop German aggression. The rest of the world, except Italy and Japan, begged us to help stop Japanese imperialism. Of course, this is common knowledge to anyone who made it past grammar school.
Now here’s something that most people don’t know. Germany had started sinking U.S. merchant ships, which were NOT carrying war material, BEFORE Lend-lease. And FDR concealed the information why? To prevent direct conflict with Germany!
Why would FDR wish to avoid direct conflict? It’s simple. He knew that war was inevitable and we were not ready to fight. So, largely through Lend-lease (which also went to China), FDR helped gear our industry to war production. It worked pretty well. Barely.
Even with all his “plotting” it was, nearly, two years after pearl harbor before we could take the fight to the Germans in a meaningful way. And that would have been impossible if FDR, Winston, and the gang, had been as stupid as Bush. You see, they avoided the trap of invading before they had overwhelming force and impeccable intelligence. Normandy could not have happened if a “handful of fanatics”, the “Underground” weren’t pinning down German forces and providing us with intelligence. Plus, the Soviets were starting to butcher the German forces.
Meanwhile in the Pacific; we needed a small miracle. In spite of our overwhelming industrial, and manpower, advantage we needed a monumental stroke of luck, at Midway, to gain the momentum. Even then, we would have had a much harder time without one other thing going our way.
What’s that you ask? I’ll tell ya. Japan was engaged in a war of attrition in China, Manchuria and the South Pacific. Most of their first line troops were “pinned down by a handful of fanatics”. Just like we are in Iraq.
Ain’t it amazing what one can learn when one doesn’t depend on White Supremacists, “Psyco-Christians”, talk radio, and other Nazi wannabes for information? I came up with that in about two minutes. And that’s after my bed time drink. Ain’t it wonderful to possess the power of reason?
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:02 amMingolic’
You’ve got a crush on Bartlebee . . . just can’t get enough. Hee!
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:03 amMingolic . . . “sweetheart” . . . feel the love . . .
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:07 amLet me make this simple.
Germany engaged in an undeclared maritime war against us BEFORE lend-lease. It’s not a difficult fact to check.
Europe, China, The Soviet Union and virtually every other nation on earth BEGGED us to intervene. Pleas for succor are one of the accepted justifications for war.
No one invited us to Afghanistan or Iraq. We (Bushco. Though we all share the blame.) initiated war (NOTE: Declarations of war by non-governments are not justification for invasion.) based on, ADMITTEDLY: inaccurate, incomplete, and inconclusive evidence. If the claims of fabricated “intelligence” are true, it’s even worse.
Get it?
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:25 am