The US is the bad guy now.

How disgusting, despicable, and embarrassing.

of course it is. don’t you see they wont condemn others torturing americans because someday they may want to circumvent the constitution by shipping americans overseas to be tortured, exactly like they did to that innocent canadian guy? do you really think any of these suits think THEY are going to be the americans that get captured? heck no!

mark my words, the people most likely to be directly responsible for the torture of american’s being tortured overseas is the american government itself. if the supreme court does not address it, it will be the perfect way to circumvent constitutional rights.

The semantic B.S. this Administration engages in has got to stop!

The law IS factual dip-shit!

One does not have to be in a car traveling faster than the posted speed limit to know that exceeding the speed limit is against the law!

.

Comment by StratRat — November 5, 2007 @ 1:34 pm

Undoubtedly that is the saddest aspect of all.

Comment by missmolly — November 5, 2007 @ 1:26 pm

Some will follow, no question. Probably those that already prop up the Amnesty International sick-bast*rd league tables.

But the reason this Bellinger argument has weight is precisely because most other countries will not follow suit. So you either leverage the argument, or you go down the Stratman route of pointing out that waterboarding has long been deemed torture and leave it at that.

Comment by Dumb_Fox

Honest, constructive debate is always a good thing. A few years ago, the vast majority of Americans would scoff at the idea that we are debating if torture is effective or not. Now, there are discussions going on around the water cooler everyday – in offices everywhere.

The right side is a simple minded animal. The simpler the solutions, the better. You seem like a sensitive person and I would ask you what I ask lots of right siders about torture: If someone was to drown you, or shove hot metal under your fingernails, would you tell them what they wanted to hear? Of course you would. The problem though is that if the person being tortured really DOESN’T KNOW, then you get bogus information.

Anyway, I am saddened that this is even up for discussion. but then the last 6 years of the Bush criminal enterprise has given sane, thoughtful people lots to be ashamed of. I hope we can recover our pride and glory.

Comment by Dumb_Fox — November 5, 2007 @ 1:06 pm

I disagree with you only on the point that “most of the world will let us go our own way.” They do this on the death penalty because we apply that to our own. If we only tortured our own people, the rest of the world wouldn’t really care.

But we (allegedly) torture people from other countries in war conditions. This is not a situation where others will let us go our own way. We are making up the rules of war to suit our purposes, while we ignore United Nations statutes and the Geneva Convention. And when you take it upon yourself to change the rules, expect the other players to follow suit.

———————————————————–

Apparently, MENTAL pain or suffering doesn’t count — even though it’s included in the United Nations definition of torture. Waterboarding doesn’t leave physical scars, but can leave mental scars lasting for years, or even for life.

If John Bellinger (or anyone else) has questions about whether or not waterboarding constitutes torture, they should undergo the procedure until all doubt is removed.

Comment by StratRat — November 5, 2007 @ 12:45 pm

Well, I think most of the world will let us go our own way and respect us less. Just as happens with the death penalty.

I find this debate hugely dispiriting, and there is a large part of me that feels that the esoteric ideas as you call them should not come into the equation. But many on the Right hinge their defense of the technique on an argument that it works. And thus it seems worth demonstrating that it doesn’t work; or it is counterproductive.

I can see the downsides to entering into this debate, but if it can succeed in changing enough minds, then perhaps it should be done.

Comment by Dumb_Fox

Fair enough, but therein lies the problem – we are discussing something which has already been settled: Waterboarding is a form of torture which has been used since the Spanish Inquisition. It has been outlawed, and we have prosecuted people for the practice. We have treaties which forbid the use of the practice, and before Bush, we had a moral compass which we followed. We have faced many greater threats than AQ.

The discussion should not include esoteric ideas such as: the current situation, moral planes, techniques, productive – not productive, effective – not effective, etc…Once we have opened the Pandora’s Box of “wiggle room of defending the practice – we have already lost our way. The world is watching, and they will take our lead. Is this what we want?

How ironic.

Here’s a similar hypothetical. A cab driver, Colin McKenna, shows up at the police station with his wife and two kids and says he witnessed some swarthy little bastards setting a bomb in the stadium and it’s going to go off in two hours during the football game. The darkies told him that if he told anyone they would kill the kids. What to do, what to do???

You try torturing him, but the mick’s a tough one. You have an hour left and Billy Hill says, “threaten to kill his kids, he’ll talk.” So Billy puts a pistol to the daughter’s ear and tells Colin he’d better start talking, but Colin doesn’t because after all it’s America and we don’t do that sort of thing, right?

But Billy says that we have 50,000 Americans in that stadium, we have to get this guy to talk, and pulls the trigger. Then points it at the son’s head. After Billy licks the blood off his fingers, he grabs a pencil and starts writing because it worked. Colin is sobbing and holding the pieces of hair in his hands and tells them exactly where the bomb is.

It’s worth it right? Sure cold blooded murder is wrong, but you saved all those people.

But when you get to the stadium and find the bomb, it’s just the guts from an old computer and a note that says “Ha ha ha, fooled you. Jefferson High Rules!!”