‘Waterboarding is torture and should be banned,’
By on Nov 8th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
‘Waterboarding is torture and should be banned,’
Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a former Navy instructor of prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival programs, told a House Judiciary subcommittee today. Nance described the experience as a “slow motion suffocation” that provides enough time for the subject to consider what’s happening: “water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel(ing) your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs.” “The victim is drowning,” Nance said. Lt. Col. Stuart Coach was supposed to testify but was prevented from doing so by the Pentagon.
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It doesn’t matter how many experts declare waterboarding torture. Bush has to prove it is not or he and Cheney are war criminals.
November 8th, 2007 at 2:51 pmThe very fact that there is any sort of debate at all over whether or not Americans should waterboard prisoners stands as our national shame.
November 8th, 2007 at 2:53 pmWaterboarding has always been considered torture, so Dubya is full of crap to think he can order its use and get away with it.
November 8th, 2007 at 2:53 pmWhy are they even holding hearings on this???
That’s like holding hearings as to whether or not Global Warming is a problem…….
oh, yeah… I forgot… Congress is the only life form with over a thousand legs and no brain
November 8th, 2007 at 2:56 pmSome in Congress would like to pass a new law to ban waterboarding, but it is already a violation of the Geneva Conventions to allow its use.
If those in Congress really represented the American citizenry, then they would impeach Bush and Cheney for allowing torture to take place.
November 8th, 2007 at 2:56 pmThe very fact that there is any sort of debate at all over whether or not Americans should waterboard prisoners stands as our national shame.
Comment by Leftside Annie
B.I.N.G.O.
You nailed it.
November 8th, 2007 at 2:59 pmLet’s burn down the Pentagon and hang those traitors!
November 8th, 2007 at 2:59 pmWe have many laws on the books from the 1950’s on this and other issues, laws that have and would work if enforced. I would like to see some enforcement of these laws for the $160,000 +benefits our representatives get.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:00 pmIt’s torture, GW666 and DARTH DICK are WAR CRIMINALS. We used to put WAR CRIMINALS on trial, now the American People or so numb by all the crimes these Fascist commit and the struggle to stay ahead, by jobs going overseas, outrageous grouging of Gas Prices, run away inflation, that they don’t have time or the will anymore to give a damn.
Until the Fascist Repukian Scum Lords are all removed from office and their Brownshirt Lockstep Lemming followers are shunned from society we are all gonna be screwed.
Buck Fush
November 8th, 2007 at 3:00 pm#7 How about a little protesting in the streets, if we do any burning we will just have to rebuild and we all know how well thats going down in New Orleans.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:01 pmLet me get this straight — expert after expert claims waterboarding is torture. Everybody who has ever been waterboarded and who as been asked about the experience claims it’s torture. Waterboarding meets the definition of torture in international law and U.S. statutes.
Why does any doubt remain? Why is the “is it or isn’t it?” angle still even being discussed?
November 8th, 2007 at 3:01 pmPersonally I think that every person in our government who says that waterboarding is not torture should be required to undergo waterboarding.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:02 pmWhy does any doubt remain? Why is the “is it or isn’t it?†angle still even being discussed?
Comment by missmolly
Because the ‘decider’ has already decided: “We don’t torture, but I can’t tell you what torture is because then I would have to torture you.”
November 8th, 2007 at 3:03 pmWaterboarding is torture.
Bush/Cheney approved the use of waterboarding.
Bush/Cheney approved the use of torture.
Simple math.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:04 pmBush and Cheney know waterboarding is torture, but they hope their GOPer stooges in Congress can confuse everybody about it.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:06 pmThe very fact that there is any sort of debate at all over whether or not Americans should waterboard prisoners stands as our national shame.
Comment by Leftside Annie — November 8, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
Absolutely right.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:07 pmAttorney David Addington now Cheney’s Chief of Staff is pulling all the small print he can find to defend his original paper defending the use of waterboarding. Personally everyone involved needs to be held accountable and tried in a court of law with no Presidential commute allowed.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:14 pmBush and Cheney also know that stripping war prisoners naked, plus having dogs bite them, is outlawed by the Geneva Conventions too.
You cannot slap, punch, or beat prisoners of war. Nor starve them or deny them water. Nor pull their fingernails out or stick needles into them. Nor can you strap them to a board and pour water into their lungs to simulate drowning.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:16 pmAh yes… we’re now on par w/ the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese, and the Khmer Rouge. The Party of Values, indeed.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:16 pmWe have many laws on the books from the 1950’s on this and other issues, laws that have and would work if enforced. I would like to see some enforcement of these laws for the $160,000 +benefits our representatives get.
Representatives don’t enforce the law. The executive branch is responsible for that, not the legislative – your beef is with the President.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:20 pmThis issue is becoming critical, because if Bush Regime gets away with what they did then all Americans are at risk of being tortured by our own government. Pouring water into the lungs can cause heart failure and even cause other ailments by bacteria in the water or inflamation of lung tissue, etc.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:21 pmSo a democrat like Truman can drop two nuclear devises on enemy cities and democrat FDR can decimate dozens of enemy cities via air bombings, yet when a murderous 911 mastermind like KSM gets waterboarded under a republican administration, suddenly its a warcrime.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:22 pmGrow a pair, this is war and some of us care more about saving innocent American lives rather than sitting on our high-horse stroking our sense of moral superiority. The facts are that KSM gave up a lot of true and valid information when he was reportedly waterboarded. Good. Do it again for good measure. I intend to win this war despite the wimpy left not having a clue about how to fight or what to protect.
Comment by Jay Randal — November 8, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
Which is one of the reasons “War” was never declared. The new aggression could be executed without existing laws to put any restraints on this administration. Gitmo, Renditions, torture, wiretapping and more all in the name of combating terror.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:22 pmI think I can speak on behalf of much of AMerica when I say, “No, duh!”
November 8th, 2007 at 3:24 pmBush is in good company.
Others who have used waterboarding:
Spanish Inquisition
Dutch East India Company
Japanese Kempeitai during WWII
German Gestapo during WWII
French troops in the Algerian War
Khmer Rouge in Cambodia
Pol Pot
Why do the Republicans want the United States to be grouped with these groups.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:24 pmConsider the pair grown CWIAD. It’s not war. Quit using the wrong terms to make you feel better. We live in a nation of laws and “We the People” decide.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:25 pmRepresentatives don’t enforce the law. The executive branch is responsible for that, not the legislative – your beef is with the President.
Comment by Bush is a four letter word
…And Congress has oversight responsibilty to the executive branch. If Bush breaks laws (which he has done repeatedly) Congress then does have an enforcement function. They may not know it, but we are trying to make them aware of their duties. it’s been a long 7 years of criminality to catch up with…
November 8th, 2007 at 3:25 pmWaterboarding is torture. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it, what else has been done in our country’s name?
Takes me back to simpler times, when things were black and white. Like when the Puritans drowned witches to keep the village safe. I’m sure they told themselves that what they were doing was the right thing to do. The Repugs are the modern reincarnation of the Puritans.
Bush though, goes a teeny bit further in his past life, he is the reincarnation of the Marquis de Sade.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:26 pmProtect what CWAID? How about US jobs, the dollar, our infrastructure, our constitution, our freedoms. Those are worth fighting for. All have been damaged by Bush.
You follow a fool
November 8th, 2007 at 3:27 pmClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred – So was the US wrong to abide by the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of prisoners in WWII? Should it have been our official policy to torture captured Nazi officers, who clearly could have provided valuable information? And what exactly do you mean by “I intend to win this war” – are you in the military?
November 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pmComment by republicans hate facts — November 8, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
you said it much better than I did.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pmhttp://www.tassc.org/
The Senate Judiciary Committee met on November 6 to consider and vote on the nomination of Michael Mukasey to be the next attorney General. By a vote of 11 to 8, the Committee sent the nomination to be considered by the full Senate. Read or listen to the statements of the Committee Members.
* The following members of the Judiciary Committee voted against Judge Mukasey and torture.
Patrick J. Leahy*
Chairman, D-Vermont
Edward M. Kennedy*
D-Massachusetts
Joseph R. Biden, Jr.*
D-Delaware
Herb Kohl *
D-Wisconsin
Russell D. Feingold *
D-Wisconsin
Richard J. Durbin *
D-Illinois
Sheldon Whitehouse*
D-Rhode Island
Please email a thanks to them for not rubberstamping the criminal judge mukasey.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:31 pmThe facts are that KSM gave up a lot of true and valid information when he was reportedly waterboarded. Good. Do it again for good measure. I intend to win this war despite the wimpy left not having a clue about how to fight or what to protect.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred
You have no facts on KSM, because Bush gave no gacts on this person. You remember, right? Bush said we cannot know what intel we got from our efforts, because we didn’t want ‘furriners’ to know what we know. So your wrong about that. And YOU intend to win the war? From where, your mom’s basement? Are you out of your mind? Why would you come to TP and write BS like that?
BTW, sh@thead, libs or progressives are trying to defend YOUR right to assemble, and speak your mind to your government without being placed in jail. We are trying to bring some Constitutional order back into our government – YOUR GOVERNMENT. You are also a beneficiary of our movement towards security and a rule of law.
Geez, just when you think the right side has done enough, along comes another loser with a chip on his shoulder. You’re not happy, we get it. You’re not working the job you want, we get it. Girls don’t like you, we get it. You don’t feel very good about yourself, we get it. All those things call for therapy, not endless war and certainly not allegience to our current boy king.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:35 pmClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred – “The facts are that KSM gave up a lot of true and valid information when he was reportedly waterboarded.” How do you know? And by using “reportedly” you admit that you don’t know what happened and what he might have said. And by your comment I assume you would allow ANY type of torture against our enemies, including killing their children in front of them, if it resulted in information that saved American lives?
November 8th, 2007 at 3:35 pmWater boarding is torture.
Torture is and always has been evil. Information gained is unreliable and dangerous to the well being of our troops. We hung people in Nurumberg for the practices we carry out today.
You who accept this horrendous practice are too blind to see you are denying your faithfulness to what you so proudly proclaim as God and country. You are swept up by passion, following along aimlessly, duped by voluntary ignorance and fear of going against what seems popular with your peers causing you to halt any questions you may have floating around in your conscience.
You’re willing to throw away what others who came before you suffered and died for because of fear mixed with a healthy dose of ignorance and a smattering of hate for those who have the strange religion and frightening ways. No amount of evidence can convince you seriously misguided adherents of anything Bush that you are willing victims of propaganda and lies. You don’t realize you have foolishly surrendered your loyalty to the USA to a man.
You people who have welcomed this filthy practice of torture have disgraced our flag, our ancestors sacrifices and the dust of their bones.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:40 pmgulfwargrunt –
November 8th, 2007 at 3:41 pmCountless captured would-be German or Japanese pows were simply shot and killed the moment they were captured by US forces, even while trying to surrender. The US understood what it takes to win a war, and to punish the enemy for attacking us. Winning wasn’t accomplished byby fighting under the restrictions of the left’s PC nonsense. BTW, he genova convention doesn’t even apply to terrorists, its for POW’s, but you already knew that.
leekinny,
Well said! Thank you.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:44 pmStratRat -
November 8th, 2007 at 3:46 pmNo need to call me names. Btw, Brian Ross of ABC broke the story on the waterboarding of KSM and provided many details. Of course I wasn’t there personally at the interrogation, wtf? It seems to me that some of you simply cannot deal with the fact the waterboarding KSM saved American lives, at least according to Brian Ross’ reports. I have no problem saving American lives by any means possible. Like I said, grow a pair. I’d rather be alive than be remembered as someone who didn’t want to torture the enemy terrorists. Btw, waterboarding is not exactly gruesome, neither are stress positions or head slapping. Its all nonesense. You need to grow a pair.
The US used to understand what it takes to win a war. Cheney, Bush and the rest of the Neocons ignored the advice of their Generals and tried to “win” on the cheap. You have less understanding then they do.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:46 pmDamn CWIAD, it’s not enough that you disgrace our country today but you reach back to disgrace our soldiers in WWII??
What kind of evil hateful bastard are you that you have to piss on our soldiers. Just so you don’t have to soil your tighty whiteys because of the boogeyman in the closet?
FO puke. You are not an American, you are a whiny, scared liitle shit who would give up everything America stands for to keep from pissing your pants.
Bush is calling little puppy, your Master needs your love.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:49 pmLet Bush, Cheney et al volunteer for some well deserved waterboarding, and tape it.
Then let’s see what song they sing after that…
Cowardly bastardos.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:52 pm.
Is torture EVER an American Principle?
.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:54 pmThe torture proponents focus on “growing a pair”. Maybe they should consider growing a heart and a brain. Do they ever consider the effects on the person doing the torture as well as the one being tortured? To torture, significant dehumanization and depersonalization of the other must occur. And what happens when the torturer tries to reintegrate back into civilian life with a wife, kids, neighbors, a civilian boss?
November 8th, 2007 at 3:58 pmNo need to call me names.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred — November 8, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
There most certain is.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:59 pmI’d rather be alive than be remembered as someone who didn’t want to torture the enemy terrorists.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred — November 8, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
In other words, you want the government to torture people, violating the law, because you are a fcking coward.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:59 pmDoes our armchair worriertroll remember anything about German soldiers trying desperately to get captured by the American forces closing in on them at the end of WWII, rather than being captured by the Russkis coming from the east?
And why that phenomemon occurred?
Thought not.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:00 pmYou need to grow a pair.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred — November 8, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
And you shouldn’t have voluntarily had yours cut off.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:00 pmNo need to call me names.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred — November 8, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
Talk about needing to grow a pair. You’d think we were waterboarding him or something!
November 8th, 2007 at 4:02 pmComment by The Republic of Stupidity — November 8, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
That left a mark.
Another thing occoured to me. CWIAD is very testically curious.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:04 pmrepublicans hate facts-
Not true, please go actually read the geneva convention before refering to it. It clearly makes the distinction of POWs, not enemy combatents with no country and no army. Although the GC clearly defines who is considered a POW (article 4, third GC) it is disputed whether terrorists would also qualify but so far they’ve only been labled enemy combatents, you khow that.
Do you hate facts too? Btw, I am not a republican, just fyi.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:07 pm“Terrorists” have “only been labled enemy combatents” (sic).
November 8th, 2007 at 4:10 pmHow convenient. How despicable.
Terrorists, insurgents, enemy combatents. Just who gets to designate these? There is a trickle of people leaving Gitmo that had been called these but are now being released. No trial, no evidence, no record of treatment or torture and they are leaving. Were the powers that be wrong then, or now?
November 8th, 2007 at 4:11 pmRUCerious
November 8th, 2007 at 4:11 pmYes, the US and Brits were so kind and gracious when it blew Dresdon off the map, including women and li’ children. The thing is that some of you mistakenly belive that the US has a history of putting moral superiority above all else, especially above wining. That’s just not so, sorry. Nuking Japan twice is how we got the job done, not but asking foreign lawyers what to do.
Clintonetcetc,
November 8th, 2007 at 4:13 pmShould Brian Ross be in the hot seat for disclosing sources and methods? Can we try to keep the talking points straight please.
But, But Clinton, the topic is torture, stay on it.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:14 pmThe thing is that some of you mistakenly belive that the US has a history of putting moral superiority above all else, especially above wining. That’s just not so, sorry.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred — November 8, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
No, many of us recognize that the U.S. does NOT have a spotless record in the morality department. And for that we are truly sorry, unlike your flippant use of the word, and we want to PROGRESSIVELY and intentionally work to move our great country toward moral perfection. That’s why we abhor what we see happening in our name.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:16 pmFurther, if the U.S. is going to be morally superior, then any treaty such as the Geneva Convention should only be a MINIMUM standard. We can and should treat prisoners of war by any name better than any other country agrees to or does.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:20 pmComment by PatrioticLiberalChristian — November 8, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
Well said
November 8th, 2007 at 4:24 pmClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred:
Your own words make you the moral equivalent of Osama bin Laden.
You ought to be ashamed.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:27 pmAnother question for the torture proponents:
Isn’t torture, by definition, terrorism?
November 8th, 2007 at 4:28 pmI’d rather be alive than be remembered as someone who didn’t want to torture the enemy terrorists. Btw, waterboarding is not exactly gruesome, neither are stress positions or head slapping. Its all nonesense. You need to grow a pair.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred
The name you selected to post here suggests you don’t like Mr. Clinton. That’s fine, but misplaced. It also allows me to call you a sh@thead. Clinton is not president, your idiot boy king is president. Can’t you please try and remember that? Your idiot in chief has brought us to this place.
I also find it very funny that you indicate I need to grow a pair, but you are willing to sacrifice all that America stands for to stay alive. Give me Liberty or give me death! You remember those words, right? They came from citizens who understood our rights and how we should view them.
You are the wrong person, posting at the wrong blog for all of the wrong reason. Your looking for a dictatorship, and it ain’t here at TP. Try redstate, they want a king over there. Cheers sh@thead!
November 8th, 2007 at 4:28 pmPatrioticLiberalChristian (nick is oxymoron? )
Moral Perfection? Serious? wow. Ok so I guess that Americans can continue to die while you strive towards your moral perfection? Yea, no thanks, I’d rather live and realize that man isn’t perfect, and government surely isn’t perfect. I believe that wining and insuring my people’s survival is more important that chasing moral ideals.
Repub hates facts-
I didn’t realize that only progressives or liberals had any good ideas. Thanks for clearing that up.
Btw, I was refering to the third G.C., you know, the one about POW treatment. It clearly defines who is a POW, and frankly a bunch of religious finatics with no country and no army is ambiguous, hence the controversy, don’t you think? No, the GC doesn’t apply to everyone. But hey, I’m no GC specialist like you.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:31 pmBut hey, I’m no GC specialist like you.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred
Sir, your words indicate you are not a specialist in anything. Not facts, not truth, not honor. You worship your idiot in chief to the detriment of all Americans. You cannot destroy America to save it. It will survive quite well without you.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:35 pmRegarding the US knowing what it takes to win war: killing their people and breaking their things has worked very well in the past. War is hell right? Why try to dess it up like a sterile operation when its a dirty, yet necessary function of humanity? I suppose that if we could have waterboarded KSM before 911 and prevent the murder of 3000 Americans, you’d still object? Come on. I don’t belive that.
If you people don’t like waterboarding, then instead of just complaining, you should offer a viable alternative way to get information out of murdering terrorists like KSM. Brian Ross reported that no other method worked and that he only cracked after being waterboarded. So, what’s your alternative to waterboarding? And please don’t talke to me about avoiding the war by having a perfect foreign policy, I’m asking for something practical. If we can get the same or better intel from a captured terrorist in a timely fashion by not waterboarding, then what’s your approved method?
November 8th, 2007 at 4:37 pmBut hey, I’m no GC specialist like you.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred
Obviously not.
You’re simply a trapped animal quivering with fear, blindly snapping, snarling and raging at anyone that comes within range.
You’re a sniveling coward with sadistic tendencies you’ve never before gotten to take out for a spin in our formerly civilized society. Now you can vicariously live out your sick fantasies of torture and sadism from the safety of your living room.
You’re a small-minded bully with a severe inferiority complex following another, bigger bully.
You are despicable. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:40 pmLook at you: willing to ignore YEARS of proof that TORTURE DOES NOT WORK.
TORTURE DOES NOT WORK.
Why do it – if not to punish and hurt and seek revenge upon those you hate…?
November 8th, 2007 at 4:43 pmA short good read about torture and the damage it can cause this country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/05/AR2007110501594.html
November 8th, 2007 at 4:47 pmLeftside-
Take it easy. I have nothing to be ashamed about. Some of us don’t share your morals with regards to torture and whether it is appropriate to use against head-cutting killers like KSM. We just disagree.
Btw, if Brian Ross of ABC is to be believed, then only waterboarding was able to break KSM and get invaluable intelligence. I think that is something you’re having trouble aknowledging.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:54 pmSo, what’s your alternative to waterboarding? And please don’t talke to me about avoiding the war by having a perfect foreign policy, I’m asking for something practical. If we can get the same or better intel from a captured terrorist in a timely fashion by not waterboarding, then what’s your approved method?
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred
I’ll try not to disrespect you because I fear you have mental issues to deal with. I also feel as though you have self-confidence issues as well. I feel bad you carry that much baggage around with you – but torturing innocent people is wrong and illegal. It is that simple – no more, no less. It’s that simple. No amount of carefully worded “what if’s” or “ticking time bomb” scenarios will help your argument.
You favor the violence onto others as a way for YOU to feel powerful. Your impact on the planet is very minimal, but you can feel relevant by siding with others who feel the need to hurt poeple. They also feel relevant for hurting innocent people. The right side is a barren wasteland of failed ideas, dressed up in patriotism. Your behavior and words insult the brave and strong defenders of liberty.
I know you’re not going to change based on my very quick analysis of you. I do wish you get some therapy for your confidence issues. If you were a more confident fellow, maybe the words and deed of our founding fathers would have a bigger impact on your thinking. Really: Look into therapy before things get really bad for you. Walking around with all that hate is not healthy.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:00 pmSo the piss soaked troll who has to use the honorable name of John Kerry because his own is covered in shit calls anyone who doesn’t agree with the Pathetic President a pussy?
Laughable really, that it’s the quaking cowards who are willing to have others torture to keep them safe. Crawl back under your beds cowards, the stench of your fear is unbearable.
Anyone with any honor or dignity wouldn’t torture, or condone torture, but these pukes do.
But hey, torture works! Sure clears the village of those scary witches doesn’t it?
November 8th, 2007 at 5:00 pmAccording to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.
His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.
“This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear,” one source said.
This is from the Brian Ross Story….
November 8th, 2007 at 5:00 pmMaybe But Clinton, didn’t read it.
google brian ross waterboarding, it’s the first hit.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:01 pmBtw, if Brian Ross of ABC is to be believed, then only waterboarding was able to break KSM and get invaluable intelligence.
Brian Ross is not to be believed. No MSM ‘talking head’ knows anything. Please do not go into a debate with this as your weapon – you will be slaughtered. You will only make yourself appear foolish. Oopps. Too late.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:03 pmI’m thinking the only reason there is debate on this subject is because the bush junior admin. has done it and they simply want to escape accountability.
Isn’t that really it ?
They’ve been above the law so often that they have come to expect it.
However, this one appears to be even more serious than lying to get support for the invasion of a country that not only had nothing to do with the 9-11 incident that this government propagated, but had no terrah-ist ties nor wmds.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:06 pmClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred –
You can kiss my liberal a$$. You obviously have NO morals.
And I’ll bet you consider yourself a Christian, too. Let me ask you one question:
WHO WOULD JESUS TORTURE??
Until you can answer that question – STFU.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:29 pmget the whitehouse and RNC emails and so many questions would be answered.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:38 pmLeftside Annie,
I would bet dollars to doughnuts these pathetic freaks are born agains. The ONLY Bush supporters left are Christian fanatics.
You are twice the person these losers are.
Almost makes me wish there were a Hell, I know these piss soaked trolls would have a pass. Isn’t that the Christians’ definition of torure?
November 8th, 2007 at 5:39 pmRUCerious,
If you can’t accept the facts that waterboarding worked on KSM, then you can’t debate the issue with any credibility. Your emotional argument is lost on me, I am interested in practical results.
What is your alternative method of interrogation? What methods *are* exceptable to you people?
Waterboarding saved lives:
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/brian_ross_cia_torture_lead_to_information_which_s/
Brian Ross on video:
November 8th, 2007 at 5:42 pmhttp://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/20/bombshell-abc-independently-confirms-success-of-cia-torture-tactics/
Leftside,
November 8th, 2007 at 5:44 pmAgain, try to remain calm. This is how debate works, k? Your lack of respect doesn’t do much to advance your cause.
CWIAD:
My cause? Being against torturing other human beings…? Give me a break.
I don’t need any respect from you. You are nothing but a cowardly and sadistic bully – and thus, you deserve nothing from me but contempt.
And you have it.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:50 pmCWIAD, I’ll take a different tack here. Are we, or are we not a nation of laws. Of the people, by the people and for the people. We prosecute those who break these laws. We also go thru set processes to change or adjust laws when it has become outdated, Or when something comes up to show the law doesn’t encompass the new situation.
Our leaders went around our founding principles to get what they wanted. For me, it’s not the act of waterboarding in and of itself. It’s the circumventing of our laws and then the legal tightrope act that Bush has danced on whether we torture or not.
I don’t know about you. But I demand honesty in my leader. He has failed us in that regard.
You are caught up in the notion that valuable intel was gained. That can’t even be debated due to the “secret” nature sorrounding the supposed intel. I have more faith in the entire intelligence gathering we have.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:52 pmYour lack of respect doesn’t do much to advance your cause.
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred
Yes it does…To thoughtful people, Leftside is a passionate blogger and she cares deeply about this country and where it is headed. On the other hand, you want a monarchy run by bigots and racists on the right side. That huge disparity crys out for some disrespect to those who cannot imagine what the founding fathers had in mind when they were creating this country.
BTW, it is not respect or disrespect around here that gets you anywhere – it is your thoughts and words. Up until now, I cannot see any arguments you have made which should not be approached with a health dose of disrespect.
Again, you are at the wrong blog if you counted on us to be uninformed and meek in our opinions.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:57 pmAnd another thing – why hasn’t KSM been brought to trial…?
BECAUSE HE WAS TORTURED – and he would testify to that effect.
We’ve supposedly caught the evil terrorist mastermind of all these sinister Islamofascist plots — and we can’t even bring him to trial BECAUSE WE TORTURED HIM.
How friggin’ stupid is that?
November 8th, 2007 at 5:57 pm87 – Thanks, Strat. “Passionate” is a good word. Lord knows I’ve been called a lot of much less flattering things!! ;o)
But — anyone who would argue in favor of torturing another human being deserves NO respect – nor do they deserve to be taken the least bit seriously in any sort of reasoned debate.
Advocacy FOR torture is an untenable, barbaric position – and I will not countenance it with any “respect” whatsoever for the holder of that position.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:01 pmSo …I guess that all boils down to the bottom line, CWIAD:
Kiss my liberal a$$.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:03 pmNot at all! All we needed to stop 9/11 from happening was to have a government in place that listened to the warning signs that were coming from ALL quarters:
The Russian Intel agency told us that an attack involving aircraft was coming.
The French Intel Agency told us that they had picked up increased traffic re: an attack on American targets.
Richard Clarke, the United States Counter-Terrorism Czar(what a ridiculous title by the way…what are we, in Stalingrad?) was raising concerns for months about increased traffic.
The FBI knew that there was an al qaeda cell that was interested in flight training in the country in July of 2001.
and on and on and on.
I have a question for all of the pro-torture cowards who have spouted their ridiculous BS here:
If an al qaeda operative captures an American soldier, straps them to a board with their feet in the air, places a rag over their mouth and proceeds to pour gallons of water onto their mouth to make them believe that they are going to drown, is it torture?
It’s only torture if somebody else does it right? Because Arabs don’t deserve the same consideration as God-fearing Americans do they? You xenophobic mouth-breathers are all the same! You debate the merits of the Geneva Conventions and who they cover, all the while not understanding that the Geneva Conventions is about protecting OUR men and women in the field. As a vet who has risked his life for the ideals that the Constitution represents, you make me sick!
November 8th, 2007 at 6:04 pm87 – Thanks, Strat. “Passionate†is a good word. Lord knows I’ve been called a lot of much less flattering things!! ;o)
Comment by Leftside Annie
You are welcome. I love reading your comments. Keep it up!
November 8th, 2007 at 6:12 pmLefside-
Your “passion” comes off as screechy and hysterical. Just make your points and keep your name calling to yourself. Try to be an adult.
hellinabucket-
Yes, a nation of laws, and I think Bush attempted to have tribunals for the combatents, but the supreme court blocked it. That’s how our system left the captured terrorists. Meanwhile, I’m not so worried about terrorists treatment as I am about getting the information they have about future attacks, about their network, etc. Apparently waterboarding KSM got that information for us. I am thankful it worked! That man is a murdering scumbag who cuts heads off innocent journalists. Maybe someone else doesn’t have to die now.
We’re talking about subjecting combatents to “stress positions”, “head slapping” and in some cases waterboarding. Sorry, that’s not really that bad considering their crimes. The US has absolutely done far worse to its enemies in the past. But even during WW2, there were those fringe elements like yourselves who objected after the nuking the enemy and/or carpet bombing their civilian populations. Fortunately, those people were ignored and marginalized much like you guys are today. It was our ability to adapt and overcome that allowed us to win WW2, not our ability to double check with international lawyers before making a move. Our survival is more important than you’re moods and your sense of moral superiority.
The problem I see with you and those like you is that you don’t approve of virtually *any* interrogation techniques. I asked an open question, what is your viable alternative to waterboarding? No one could answer, which makes me wonder if you people are even serious about your cause or if this is just another bush-bash opportunity.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:36 pmCWIAD: To YOU, maybe. I don’t post for you, moron.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:40 pm93 – CWIAD: “Screechy and hysterical” is a favorite epithet of misogynistic reichers directed at ANY woman who stands her ground and doesn’t make nice, isn’t it…? It’s meant to …put me in my place, eh?
You’re arguing in favor of torture, idiot. NOBODY is going to take you seriously – whether you’re polite or not, you’re still a despicable, sadistic coward.
Read up on what the Army interrogators who served in WWII said. They interrogated the worst-of-the-worst of the Nazis. The did not resort to torture; they “played chess” with these men, they treated them with respect that all human beings deserve no matter what their crimes – and thus, got more actionable intelligence than any torture could have.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:48 pmBut — anyone who would argue in favor of torturing another human being deserves NO respect – nor do they deserve to be taken the least bit seriously in any sort of reasoned debate.
Comment by Leftside Annie
You forgot, Annie. The US doesn’t torture. Therefore, its interrogation techniques are not torture, because the US doesn’t torture.
How brilliant is that, huh?
November 8th, 2007 at 6:51 pmLeftside-
I am sorry for you that you can’t seem to control your outbursts. It shows a real lack of maturity on your part.
Regarding WW2, again you’ve completely missed the point that while some people maybe played chess with nazis, other people were busy carpet boming German civilan areas like Dresden, killing their women and children to ensure that American women and children would not suffer the same fate. Others were busy dropping two nuclear devices on Japan, even after the japanese navy had been all but destroyed, just to make sure they understood that we won’t tolerate being attacked. Interrogate that. The US is not obliged to live up to your moral standards when it comes to ensuring our survival. Maybe you would risk the needless death of more Americans at the hands of terrorists, but I won’t. If waterboarding worked on KSM, it will surely work on other terrorists. If you have an alternative to waterboarding hardened killers like KSM, besides playing chess with them, please let me know.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:58 pmComment 93: Dresden was not carpet bombed. The technology did not exist during WWII. Besides, carpet bombing is a tactic used against military concentrations. A bomb is dropped which then dispenses many bomblets so that an entire area is covered. You truly are ignorant on this subject.
You really refer to the concept of strategic bombing utilized by both Germany and the allies during WWII. The purpose of strategic bombing was to destroy the economic capabilities of the enemy by disrupting major economic centers. This would break the will of the enemy and disrupt production of strategic goods. It was thought to be necessary because munitions of the day were very imprecise. One could not hit factories consistently or cause sufficient destruction to guarantee that production would have been disrupted.
The US government had concerns over the concept during WWII. They were concerned with the morality of their actions (collateral damage to innocent civilians) and the high cost in allied aircrews. They actually formulated a group that published the Strategic Bombing Survey to asses the actual impact the tactic.
You are wrong again. The survey found that the strategic campaign failed to dent German production. Indeed, it increased. The survey also found that the bombing actually steeled the German people.
The US has since concentrated on developing precision weapons that minimize collateral damage.
November 8th, 2007 at 7:46 pmSociopathic Bush cultist: “Countless captured would-be German or Japanese pows were simply shot and killed the moment they were captured by US forces, even while trying to surrender.”
That’s a goddam lie you pig. That lie has been perpetuated by fascists like Michael Weiner Savage and Bill O’Rielly. It has been debunked by a number of military historians. Here’s the truth: we executed a member of the Japanese Imperial military for waterboarding and a number of Nazis were given life in prison for waterboarding American and British prisoners. We even courtmarshaled members of our own military in 1902 and during the Vietnam War for waterboarding.
November 8th, 2007 at 7:57 pmJMOHR –
I see you’re perhaps slitting hairs on symantics, however, you’re simply wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing#Carpet_bombing_during_World_War_II
” Probably the most spectacular example of this was the destruction of Dresden by combined forces of the RAF and USAAF.”
Wow, another uninformed thinkprogress poster, shocker.
Besides, my point was that the USA killed tens of thousands of Germans during the bombings of Dresden, and *purposely* killed tens of thousands of Japanese civilians when it nuked them, twice. Both incidents occured under a Democrat president during a time of war. The the US has conducted in less than moral ways in order to win wars and ensure your survival. The US does what it needs to do to survive, especially during wars. Waterboarding is nothing.
November 8th, 2007 at 7:58 pmBush cultist: “The US is not obliged to live up to your moral standards when it comes to ensuring our survival.”
Only a sick sociopath would feel that way. As George Washington told his men, “we’re supposed to stand for something.”
November 8th, 2007 at 7:59 pmSociopath: “Waterboarding is nothing.”
We executed a man for doing it to our soldiers. Google on Sgt. Major Shinsako Yuki if you don’t believe me, you stupid a-hole.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:02 pmAccording to a number of historical accounts, Nazi soldiers actively sought out American forces to quickly surrender to them rather than being taken prisoner by approaching Russian army forces because they knew they would be treated in a humane manner by Americans.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:05 pmHey stupid! If “waterboarding is nothing,” why did we execute a Japanese officer for it and throw a number of Nazis in jail for life for doing it? I’m waiting for your answer to that simple question.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:10 pmRet. Col. Jack Ripper,
Are you seriously going to pretend that the heros of WW2 didn’t sometimes kill surrendering enemies? Ok… Did you know that there were special MP’s that were sent out to find Germans who were trying to surrender but were avoiding the infantrymen because they’d be shot on site? They’d sneak around the front line in search of US officers, and these special MP’s would be there waiting for them.
You might want to read this book:
November 8th, 2007 at 8:11 pmhttp://www.amazon.com/Natural-Born-Heroes-Memories-Neighborhood/dp/1570902364/ref=sr_1_1/102-5068842-7092147?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194570410&sr=8-1
Again, I ask you: If “waterboarding is nothing,†why did we execute a Japanese officer for it and throw a number of Nazis in jail for life for doing it?
You’re comparing questionable anecdotal evidence about certain rogue members of the military acting outside of authority with official government policy. Answer the simple question about waterboarding (which is the subject of this thread) or get your sick, ugly, sociopathic ass out of here. I’m tired of you crapping all over the reputation of our country and our military.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:17 pmYou people really have no leg to stand on. History proves that the US has and will do far, far worse things than waterboarding to the enemy in order to win wars. The carpet bombing of Dresden and the dropping of two nuclear weapons on Japan prove my poin. Waterboarding a creep like KSM is nothing. There are bigger issues at stake, like your survival.
The problem with you anti-waterboarders is that you offer no viable alternatives and often won’t even face the knowledge that waterboarding KSM worked pretty well when nothing else did. You don’t seem to be comortable with any interrogation techniques, which is ludicrous.
This country survival is not bound to your higher sense of morality, regarless whether you may be willing to allow more Americans to die so that you can feel better about yourselves for not waterboarding terrorists.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:18 pmBush cultism has reached it’s logical end. Bush cultists will shit on the military, ignore the ideals of American democracy and our Founding Fathers all to protect this horrible little aristocrat that they worship. It’s just as sickening as it can get.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:21 pmComment 101: I am not “sliting” hairs. I was in the Air Force and we tend to take our weapons fairly seriously. However, you failed to see the point. The use of the tactic was controversial at the time. You claimed that the tactic was necessary to ensure the survival of the US. You were wrong. The US government Strategic Bombing Survey says that you were wrong. I do not condem the US for using the tactic. It was the best at the time. However, we had the sensibility to use fact finding to see whether it actually worked. We abandoned the use of such tactics because they were ineffective. Actually, we would have done better by using air power for close ground support as was well demonstrated during the DD Invasion. Indeed, the Strategic Bombing Survey and the limits of such tactics was and is a required topic from basic ROTC classes through Air War College.
The use of the atomic bombs was also controversial as well its should have been. Again, I do not fault the use of the weapons. We were facing the invasion of mainland Japan where the probable loss of life on both sides would well have outweighed that by the use of the atomic bombs. Under the law of war, an acceptable trade off.
Torture has never been an effective means of gathering information
Now, what is your factual basis for asserting that the “war on terror” comes close to being the same threat to the survival of the United States as was WWII. I really think that I see a frightened child willing to break any law and commit any crime against hummanity to defeat a boogey man inflated far beyond its threat. The fact that every interrogation professional has condemned the use of torture as unreliable attacks your premise to justify its use. Indeed, Shiek Kahlid gave many false leads after he “broke.” The real intelligence coups came from capturing his lap top which had a list of AQ operatives and networks.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:22 pmBush cultist: “History proves that the US has and will do far, far worse things than waterboarding to the enemy in order to win wars.”
No, history shows that we have executed and imprisoned people for waterboarding and that we have sent our own officers to prison for doing it to the enemy.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:22 pmJMOHR: “Indeed, Shiek Kahlid gave many false leads after he “broke.†The real intelligence coups came from capturing his lap top which had a list of AQ operatives and networks.”
Exactly. Thank you.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:24 pmJack Ripper,
Even if it is uncomfortable or inconvenient, you must face facts or else you’re not being rational. You do understand that the US nuked two Japanese cities and leveled German cities to the ground with conventional bombings, killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process?
Just let that settle in for a while and then you’ll understand that waterboarding KSM and his band of terrorists is nothing in comparison.
You’re just wrong on this, and I see its difficult for you to accept.
Yes, I am familiar with how waterboarding has been considered a crime in the past. I am not here to protect Bush. You assume I am his supporter. I am no repubican and I have mixed feelings on Bush. I am however, an American and I value American lives much more than terrorists. I am here to support waterboarding terrorists like KSM because it helps save more lives.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:35 pmSo unless you have a viable alternative to waterboarding…
Comment 113: I notice that you have failed to provide a factual basis for stating that we face a threat to the very survival of the United States. Water boarding is a crime against hummanity. It is torture and it does not provide a reliable source of information. Yes, strategic bombing was used during WWII. Strategic bombing involved what was a new technology at the time. It was believed that bombing of cities would break the will of the enemy and destroy their economic capability to wage war. Unfortunately, it did not work. I note that you failed to respond to the results of the Strategic Bombing Survey and its refutation of the use of the tactic. You fail to respond to the fact that the US was willing to try the tactic but also had the sense to examine its actions on a factual basis that led to the development of precision ammunition and a switch in emphasis to logistcal interdiction and ground support for military air. Tactics that were indeed utilized with great success during both Gulf wars.
You failed to respond to the use of atomic weapons to avoid an even greater loss of life on both sides in lieu of an invasion of the Janapnese home islands.
I guess you just act from the gut without any regard to factual analysis.
The goal of any insurgency or assymmetrical warfare is to cause the enemy to over react and to cause a backlash against the opponent. Our use of torture against detainees, the majority of which did not constitute the enemy has caused the reputation and status of the US to suffer. Note that Turkey, once our greatest supporter in the middle east, now has 91% of the population disapproving of the US and its use of military force. You are exactly the type of person that our enemy is aiming for. You actually help them to accomplish theri goals.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:49 pmo unless you have a viable alternative to waterboarding…
Comment by ClintonWasImpeachedAndDisbarred — November 8, 2007 @ 8:35 pm
November 9th, 2007 at 12:34 amUnfortunately for you, all it got was lies and misinformation, thus slowing the progress of gathering good information, and putting our troops in more danger. besides being a sadistic, immoral, unAmerican coward, you’re also dead wrong.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin’s Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775
November 9th, 2007 at 11:19 amCWIAD: “Controlling my outbursts”…?
That’s simply another standard reichwing response to anyone who has a better argument than you do.
You haven’t a leg to stand on, so you fall back on your idiotic putdowns.
Tell ya what? Why don’t you just emigrate to North Korea – I’m sure Dear Leader will be happy to protect you and keep you safe from big bad terrorists.
Oh – and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
November 9th, 2007 at 11:22 amLeftside, calm yourself.
I’ve not put you down at all. I’ve simply asked you repetedly to keep your comments clean and respectful. You obviously cannot control yourself, and this is a clear indication of your lack of maturity and a testiment to the overall weak and ineefective nature of your argument. I also sense some general insecurity from you regarding your position, and that’s understandible. But outside of liberal circles, people actually debate back and forth and we challenge each other. This might be new to you so I’ll give you another chance.
Fact: It has been reported by Brian Ross, who interviewed CIA insiders, including those who are against torture, that KSM was waterboarded and that he cracked with valid and actionable information. Simply listen to Brian Ross’ report for yourself. My link to his video is above. You can’t dismiss the inconventient fact that waterboarding did indeed work on KSM. The argument that torture doesn’t work has been disproven and is over now. You’ve clearly lost that debate. You need to argue a different point. I suggested that you offer a viable alternative to waterboarding and you offered that we should play chess with our enemies. Is that what you think we should be doing in Guantanamo, playing chess with terrorists?
Your moral superiority argument again breaks down when you consider that American lives are put in jeopardy because people like you aren’t willing to waterboard life-saving information out of a terrroist.
Your argument even further deteriorates when you juxtapose waterboarding with the actions the USA has taken historically to ensure its people’s survival, such as leveling German and Japanese cities and killing tens of thousands of civilians.
Now, if you have something intelligent to offer besides calling me a nazi or an idiot or rambling that Bush is immoral, then by all means please try again. But, at this point you simply must accept that you are wrong that torture doesn’t work. That myth has been shattered by Brian Ross’ report. You must stop pretending it didn’t happen and face reality. So, what else do you have?
November 9th, 2007 at 12:10 pmYou are completely ridiculous. You tout ONE SINGLE person’s report that “torture worked” – and that flies in the face of YEARS and YEARS of hard evidence that torture does NOT work.
Ask John McCain if torture worked.
Furthermore, we cannot ever bring KSM to trial – BECAUSE WE TORTURED HIM.
I never did call you a Nazi – but that particular jackboot fits you exactly.
You make generations of dictators, tyrants, genocidal maniacs and Nazis proud. Adolf Hitler is wiping away a tear of pride in Hell.
I’m done with you. GO TO NORTH KOREA – WHERE YOU BELONG.
You don’t deserve to live in America, you swinish coward.
November 9th, 2007 at 12:49 pmLefside,
You’ve clearly lost this argument. No need to get upset though. “You are completely rediculous” Wow, what a fantastic display of reason. Bravo!
I do understand that facts are often difficult for the left to deal with in a mature mannor, but you’d better start learning how to back up your arguments because the days of the left spouting their nonsense and going unchallend are obviously long over. Even here on your leftwing hate sites where you all circle your waggons and squat around your blogs reassuring each other, you’ll still be challenged. There’s nowhere for the left to hide from debate anymore. How does it feel to get completely Powned on your own silly partisan website?
Let me know when you have an actual arguement to offer and maybe we can discuss further. I agree that particular debate is done and that you’ve lost it, badly. “Torture is bad”, is about all you could offer. How simple of you. Best of luck playing chess with terrorists. I’m sure voters will love that brilliant idea. Thank God my family’s safety is not in hands of people who think like you, those would rather let my family die than waterboard a few terrorist murderors.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:07 pmPredictions of the next 911 by a Professional Geologist.
http://www.H2onE2.com Glacial Respiration, Conceptual Ring of Ice, The End of Linear Western Religion
A Geological Exploration of an E2 Earthen Planet And the H2 Human Species
Author: B Billy Marse, Professional Geologist
Brief Description:
http://www.H2onE2.com is an exploration of the universe, geology, climate, biology, humans, psychology, folklore and ancient structures to uncover the beginning and disclose the end of linear western religion. The true DaVinci Code behind the bible is not a supreme spiritual power but a scientific record of climate change described as Glacial Respiration. The Greek philosophers originated the practice of communicating a hidden idea or message in the short story format, as a metaphor. In the bible, metaphors conceal historic climate change within the fanciful stories. The theory of Glacial Respiration explains the myth behind the Holy Grail, structures such as the Great Pyramids, Stonehenge, Easter Island and is the knowledge that was collected in the Jewish Ark of the Covenant.
The environmental changes of Glacial Respiration determine all biological evolution and can explain why higher forms of intelligent humans developed. Further, Glacial Respiration releases the secret hidden by the Knights Templars, Masonic Order and all religions. Uncovers an advanced Blue-Blooded semi-industrial Atlantian Civilization that was built and destroyed many times over for the last million years. The book ends with an explanation of how linear western religion will be physically ended and describes the construction of the doomsday device capable of fulfilling its own self defining prophesy, “Revelationsâ€. H2onE2 is a mind-expanding experience that stimulates the soul, instinct, intellect and is an almanac to the past, present and future of humanity. Rise, awaken and evolve into H3 human consciousness.
The discovery:
November 9th, 2007 at 4:57 pmAs a Professional Geologist, I attempted to link the Dust Bowl/Great Depression to a pre-glacial condition or mechanism and ended up writing the book H2onE2. I felt that there was a strong connection between the Dust Bowl and transition back into Glacial Winter. I did notice that my professors scientifically crumbled every time I mentioned the relationship. I could not go back in time or locate indisputable proof. The proof came from understanding all educational disciplines including history and theology. I soon discovered that all religious text both eastern and western continually described significant climate change conditions relating to Glacial Respiration. For years I fought off mixing science and religion until I discovered that the origins of all religions were founded or created to help humans psychologically survive the harsh earthen environment. Without reason I soon accepted that the world’s complicated religions were the same. This came true and I continued to write and discover. Everything came into place as though I was unlocking a 10,000-year-old puzzle. I also realized this puzzle was opened before I discovered it, by someone else, some other group. If so, further understanding of this knowledge might be extracted from significant historical events. Lastly, this is the vital information needed to make future predictions.
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