Breaking: House passes Iraq redeployment bill.
Breaking: House passes Iraq redeployment bill.
Tonight, the House of Representatives voted 218-203 to pass a $50 billion funding bill for Iraq that would require withdrawal of most U.S. troops from Iraq to begin within 30 days of the bill’s enactment, with a completion goal of Dec. 15, 2008. The AP reports:
The bill was on shaky ground this week, after some liberal Democrats said they were concerned it was too soft and would not force Bush to end the war. Conservative Democrats said they thought it went too far and would tie the hands of military commanders.
Uncertain the bill would pass, Pelosi on Wednesday delayed a vote by several hours while she met with supporters and asked them to help her round up votes.
The bill’s prospects brightened somewhat early Wednesday after three leading anti-war Democrats announced they would support it. California Reps. Lynn Woolsey, Barbara Lee and Maxine Waters said they had agreed to swing behind it because the bill explicitly states the money should be used to bring troops home.
UPDATE: The Gavel has more.
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"...should be..."
Not particularly strong wording...
November 14th, 2007 at 10:17 pmIt's about time-they should have held the budget hostage like this a long time ago. As far as it hindering the commanders from carrying out their duties, that's nonsense - they have sworn to defend America and her freedoms and the Constitution, and we speak through Congress (ideally), so what we say goes.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:29 pmSO???
November 14th, 2007 at 10:32 pmHR Vote? -- Check.
Senate vote? -- Demand a REAL filibuster.
Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (10:40pm EST) is once again clearly laying out the god awful realities of Bush's disastrous War. How many more words, speeches, votes must we endure?
November 14th, 2007 at 10:42 pmyes that's nice......but do i smell a Bush VETO?
November 14th, 2007 at 10:45 pmmaybe they can furiously rage over this. insult each other and then Harry Reid can sell out America and horse trade for something that will help Feinstein make another few million.
yeehaw....
November 14th, 2007 at 10:47 pmHey, don't be so down, you know what they say, the 41st time is the charm...
November 14th, 2007 at 10:57 pmWe all know that when the president veto’s this the Dems WILL roll over and give him what he wants…..
I sure do get tired of reminding you folks that overcoming a veto will require all Senate Dems plus 16 Republicans. You talk like the Dems can overcome a veto by themselves. Get a clue.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:07 pmWHat a waste of time!
Comment by John Kerry — November 14, 2007 @ 11:09 pm
Your post? Yes, it was!
November 14th, 2007 at 11:21 pmThe Iraq war? Yes it was!
The Bush Presidency? Yes it was!
Rumsfeld's tenure? Yes it was!
Your existence! YES IT WAS - STUPID REPUBLICAN TROLL!
Hey, don’t be so down, you know what they say, the 41st time is the charm…
Comment by Keltoi at Night — November 14, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
You referring to Bush's continuing efforts at failing to manage Iraq? Or your own failure, to post anything relevant, competent or thoughtful?
November 14th, 2007 at 11:22 pmYeah - my Representative, Tim Holden voted "yea". So this means that since coward Bush broke it, coward Bush must fix it.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:28 pmYou referring to Bush’s continuing efforts at failing to manage Iraq? Or your own failure, to post anything relevant, competent or thoughtful?
Comment by republicans hate facts — November 14, 2007 @ 11:22 pm
My own feeling is that you would be well-served (as would we all) if you got rid of the chip on your shoulder and got a little perspective. Keltoi is not Pee, etc. Relax.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:29 pmThe fact is that the Dems are playing a (politically) dangerous game. If they don't pass anti-war legislation, they risk losing support. If they pass such legislation which "sticks", and Iraq blows up, they face the certainty of getting the blame. Their safest route is to pass legislation which they know will be vetoed and "allowing" the occupation to proceed, virtually, unchanged. This way it remains a campaign winning issue. I don't like it but it's not likely to change.
On a related note:
"These votes, like the dozens of previous failed votes, put the interests of radical interest groups ahead of the needs of our military and their mission," an administration statement said.
So long as the White House, and other necons, continue dismissing the majority of the population as "radical interest groups" they weaken their, already weak, standing with thinking people. Granted, there are lots of sheeple out there but Joe/Jane six-pack don't like being called "radical". The White House "hit machine" remains the strongest voice against the Republicriminals.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:40 pmDid the House Dems get the approval from AIPAC, Exxon/Mobil, Lockheed, halliburton, GE, Boeing, Lieberman, Goldman Sachs, and Rupert Murdoch?
November 14th, 2007 at 11:44 pmI can just imagine what those in the military and their loved ones are going through.. hearing this
what a tease.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:48 pmWeren't the troops going to start redeploying in about a month anyway?
November 14th, 2007 at 11:50 pmOnly ONE brigade.
It’s really nothing much when you look at the overall picture.
Comment by RemoveBush — November 14, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
It's all the administration needs for a photo-op.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:55 pmThe Dems are so tone deaf. The country realizes that the surge has quelled the violence in Iraq, and yet the Dems continue to cry defeat. Add to this the Dems poor positioning on illegal immigration and gay marriage, and you have the Dems snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2008. Even John McCain is polling over Hill'reh in a head to head Prez race as a result of her mishandling of the illegal immigration issue, so do Dems really think this stunt is going to help?
November 14th, 2007 at 11:55 pmMy own feeling is that you would be well-served (as would we all) if you got rid of the chip on your shoulder and got a little perspective. Keltoi is not Pee, etc. Relax.
Comment by gummitch — November 14, 2007 @ 11:29 pm
Whether or not he's Mr. Pee is not established, nor would it change the fact he's for he most part an idiot. Any glimmer of decency or intellect from Keltoi is immediately followed with a stupid and uninformed opinion. You can relax yourself...
November 14th, 2007 at 11:58 pmThe Dems are so tone deaf. The country realizes that the surge has quelled the violence in Iraq, and yet the Dems continue to cry defeat. Add to this the Dems poor positioning on illegal immigration and gay marriage, and you have the Dems snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2008. Even John McCain is polling over Hill’reh in a head to head Prez race as a result of her mishandling of the illegal immigration issue, so do Dems really think this stunt is going to help?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — November 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
Hendler - the TONE DUMB, is lecturing others of BEING DEAF! Forget that the MAJORITY of Americans WANT US OUT OF IRAQ - NOOWWW!!! Poor little 'tarded hendler thinks doing WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS is a STUNT! Well, considering you have the emotional and social maturity of a 12 year old HENDLER, it's easy to see how you'd feel that way. Do your party a favor and STFU. Or don't! Either way I WIN!
November 14th, 2007 at 11:59 pmThe Dems are so tone deaf. The country realizes that the surge has quelled the violence in Iraq, and yet the Dems continue to cry defeat.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — November 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
Round-up of daily violence - Wednesday 14 November 2007
Baghdad
- Around 8 a.m., a roadside bomb targeted an American patrol at Salhiyah neighborhood (downtown Baghdad) near Salhiyah police station killing two civilians and injuring three others.
- Around 9 a.m., a roadside bomb targeted an American patrol in Binouk neighborhood (north east Baghdad).No casualties reported.
- Police found (5) unidentified dead bodies in the following neighborhoods in Baghdad: ( 3 ) were found in west Baghdad ( Karkh bank ) ; 1 in Saidiyah , 1 in Doura and 1 in Ja’amia . While 2 were found in east Baghdad (Risafa bank); 1 in New Baghdad and 1 in Jisr Diyala.
Babil
- Around 5.30 p.m., a suicide car bomber targeted a host tent for Skeikh Ammar Al-Gurtani in Muyalha in Al-Iskandariyah (north Babil ) killing 3 people and injuring 8 others.
Kirkuk
- Around 3 p.m., gunmen kidnapped a person (a farmer who was in his pick up vehicle) on the way between Hawija and Abassiyah (west of Kirkuk).
- Wednesday afternoon, gunmen riding a Toyota vehicle killed an Iraqi soldier from the first battalion, the second brigade inside the Hawija main market (the great suq ). When a police patrol came the same gunmen killed a policeman and ran away.
Basra
- Tuesday night, a Katyusha missile hit the British base in Basra international airport which made the British forces responded with six mortars. No casualties reported.
- At dawn, two mortars hit two areas in Basra, one hit a house in Bab Midan (5 km south Basra city) while the second one fell into Shatt Al-Arab.
This is what you call "quelled?"
November 15th, 2007 at 12:00 amComment by Jason M. Hendler — November 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
That's clearly a very good supply of meth you've got there, Jason. You've succeeded in creating an alternate reality for yourself with no connection to the real world whatsoever. Enjoy your hallucinations.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:01 amComment by Jason M. Hendler — November 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
If Representatives voting according to their constituents wishes is a "stunt"; we may as well fire one nuke at each China and Russia. I'm sure they would put us out of our misery.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:05 amVery clever - NOT. Filter out the meaningless noise and look at the bottom line and you'll see that they just keep funding the war.
None of the two pro-war parties wants to leave all that oil behind. Even if they wanted to, our oil corporations and the military industrial complex will not allow them to do so.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:06 amAdd to this the Dems poor positioning on illegal immigration and gay marriage, and you have the Dems snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2008. Comment by Jason M. Hendler — November 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
BAHAHA, You're actually STUPID ENOUGH to believe that the Democrats are on the WRONG SIDE of this issue? Yeah, don't let FACTS and POLLING change your PERSONAL RACISM, HOMOPHOBIA and GENERAL BIGOTRY THERE - BUBBAH! You're one dumb little piece of sh!!!t, how do you wipe your own @ss?
Even John McCain is polling over Hill’reh in a head to head Prez race as a result of her mishandling of the illegal immigration issue, so do Dems really think this stunt is going to help?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — November 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
In WHAT POLL? One commissioned by FOX? Frankly very few of us want Hillary as our choice, she shares too many values with YOU 'TARD!!! That's why she's SO POPULAR with the Republican Big Donors that have jumped shipped to the Democrats!
But frankly, if you think ANY REPUBLICAN is going to win the Presidency any time soon - you're 100% F**KING INSANE ASPERGERS BOY!
November 15th, 2007 at 12:12 amI wouldn't hold my breath to King George caving in to Congress and strike a deal with them. Certainly Bush has to answer to his boss Supreme Leader Dick. Bush certainly has something up his sleeves to stall the troops from coming home. This bill does not tell King George to account the entire 50 billion that is being allocated to the troops. We already know that the Pentagon has asked for 100 million for a pet project for space. And I bet some of the 50 billion will be diverted to the Pentagon and among other places. So, do you think that 50 billion is actually going into the hands of the troops??? I think not. While Congress frisbees out billions of dollars to King George's purse and pet projects, look who suffers financially with lack of healthcare, children's programs, education, and so forth: the American people. Pass the popcorn please....
November 15th, 2007 at 12:19 amEven John McCain is polling over Hill’reh in a head to head Prez race as a result of her mishandling of the illegal immigration issue, so do Dems really think this stunt is going to help?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — November 14, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
If this is WHY McCain is polling over Hillary (have some respect you POS little b!!!ch), then WHY does Edwards BEAT McCain? Especially since Edwards represents a FURTHER DEPARTURE from what you consider to be BAD POLITICAL POSITIONS than Hillary does?
Ah, the TRUTH always has a LIBERAL BIAS, and makes HENDLER BE SEEN AS THE 'TARD HE IS!!!
November 15th, 2007 at 12:26 amWHat a waste of time!
Comment by John Kerry
I agree, it is a waste of time. It's all a waste of time. It's time for the Democrats to tell Bush that they will spend the remaining 14 months of his presidency investigating every crime he has committed, and not bother passing any further legislation. It is a waste of time for them to try to pass laws that either the Republicans threaten to filibuster or Bush will veto.
There are still a lot of investigations to be getting into. Start using Inherent Contempt to throw the people who ignore subpoenas in jail until they testify. Then challenge Bush in court on his Executive Privilege.
And, finally, don't give Bush a dime for anything. When the government runs out of money, point the finger at Bush, since he's responsible.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:26 amWhy do you respond to Jason? He knows he's full of sh|t. He just says that stuff to get your dander up and then he sits back and laughs at your angry responses. Don't you folks ever get tired of being played for a fool?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:30 amWhy do they bother “acting†like they are working for the American people????
Comment by RemoveBush
In order to maintain the illusion that there is any difference between the two parties for all those morons that are under the childish belief that there is any difference at all.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:35 amThe Dems are so tone deaf. The country realizes that the surge has quelled the violence in Iraq, and yet the Dems continue to cry defeat.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
November 15th, 2007 at 12:36 amShut off Rush and the other hate America talk show hosts and stay away from TV cable news. It is clearly screwing with your ability to reason.
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll Nov. 1-5, 2007. N=1,509 adults nationwide. MoE ± 2.5 (for all adults).
"In general, do you approve or disapprove of the job that George W. Bush is doing in handling the situation in Iraq?"
Approve Disapprove Unsure
27% 68% 5%
I guess 68% of the American people are just a "radical interest" and we must follow the wishes of the 27%?!?!
I think some coalition should bring democracy to the US.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:50 amThat looked better in the preview.
27% Approve
68% Disapprove
5% Unsure
November 15th, 2007 at 1:53 amComment by O. Bigfoot — November 15, 2007 @ 1:17 am
As usual your post has little or no connection to reality.
Hendler's babble is still in the thread, and Limbaugh is still allowed, and payed for, spouting his mad rants over the airwaves.
Censorship? What in the world are you talking about?
November 15th, 2007 at 1:58 amRASMUSSEN REPORTS
Survey of 800 Likely Voters
October 31-November 1, 2007
John Edwards (D) vs.
John McCain (R)
John Edwards (D)
47%
John McCain (R)
38%
John Edwards (D) vs.
Mitt Romney (R)
John Edwards (D)
50%
Mitt Romney (R)
November 15th, 2007 at 2:06 am34%
Percentage of thinking mammals who think trolls are, well, trolls? 100%
Percentage of trolls who display human intellect and compassion? 0%
G'night humans.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:22 amYou too trolls.
koko the talking gorilla
Its a little bit more spine then they have shown in the past, and who knows? Maybe they will just keep on sending Bush the same bill over and over again until the money runs out.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:11 amJust more theatre from the Democrats... Wake me up when it really happens!
November 15th, 2007 at 3:43 amI have mixed feelings about the legislation as written, because it comes out of the Speaker's bargaining with the Blue Dogs.
Bargaining with the Blue Dogs has only one result*: You get dog poop on your shoes!
The Blue Dogs belong in the Republican Party, but they haven't ot the guts to do it. For the Blue Dogs there is only ONE cure: a hotly contested PRIMARY with a Progressive opponent out for BLOOD!
Nevertheless, I trust Reps. Barbara Lee and Maxine Waters, thus the mixed feelings.
* Kinda like responding to trolls and troll dung; I advise reporting them for Abuse instead!
November 15th, 2007 at 5:19 amits sad how we feel so hopeless....but we dont wanna get played again, & for the most part, we've lost faith.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:45 amAs usual, the only way modern-day liberals can handle the truth, is if they censor it.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 15, 2007 @ 1:17 am
The rantings of that fat bigoted drug addict in no way meet the definition of "truth."
November 15th, 2007 at 7:28 amUnfortunately for the Democrats, the good news that Iraq is, for now at least, on the road to stabilization is making their current pathetic attempts at guaranteeing U.S. failure seem even more desperate than ever.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 15, 2007 @ 1:15 am
Perhaps in your Fox News/Rush Limbaugh bizarro world Iraq is on the road to stabilization, but here on Earth the story is quite different.
Civilian deaths are still at almost 1,000 per month. New fighting has broken out between Kurds and the Turkish military in northern Iraq. Much of Baghdad has been ethnically cleansed of Sunni tribes, with US help. The Sadr bloc and several Sunni blocs are calling for Parliament to be dissolved and new elections held. Shi'ite police factions are battling on the streets of Karbala' and Basra.
You call the three civil wars currently going on for control of Kirkuk, Baghdad, and Basra "the road to stability?" Even the "birth pangs of a new Middle East" was at least a bit more accurate.
And the fact that you still use words like "defeat" and "victory" shows your lack of understanding of the situation. In this war these terms are meaningless.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:54 amComment by O. Bigfoot @ 1:17 am
November 15th, 2007 at 7:56 am==================================================
Perhaps the troll troll is confusing censor withcensure.
Why is it that the trolls always say that things are going great in Iraq but the U.S. can never leave Iraq? How good do things have to be going to get out? How bad do they have to be to stay? It's always 6 months down the road that it will turn the corner. Since they are not the ones that are putting their lives on the line they should STFU and support withdrawal or put up and go fight. Otherwise all they're doing is blindly supporting continued occupancy while risking absolutely nothing. It's disgusting.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:03 amtoasterhead
You forgot: Poland
November 15th, 2007 at 8:05 amYou forgot: Poland
Comment by Bruce Gorton — November 15, 2007 @ 8:05 am
Oh no not Poland ;_;
November 15th, 2007 at 8:25 amWithdrawing from Iraq is the right thing to do. The money and resources being expended in Iraq right now can be and should be put to use elsewhere.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:41 amWhat a waste of time. The Senate won't pass it and even if they found a way with a few thousand pork projects to buy votes, the president will veto it and then the Dems will cave.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:51 am#53...Civilians tend not to become separated from their heads as easily in other parts of the world as they do in Iraq. Perhaps they are just very unlucky there--lots of tragic falling-plate-glass-window-type accidents.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:54 amWow the entire graveyard shift over a the troll-center is signing off on this thread before heading out. (s)Hits must be in the break room having a latte and scone before starting the morning shift.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:03 amComment by Menehune — November 15, 2007 @ 9:03 am
November 15th, 2007 at 9:06 am=================================================
What makes you think that there is more than one troll here this morning?
John Kerry.....actually we Librrulllss are in fact pleased with the progress in Iraq.We're so pleased we'd like to leave now.Considering that the Preznit lied to the Nation and the world to get us into Iraq in the first place.Hows this war workin out for ya?Hows the dollar falling workin out for ya?Hows borrowing trillions from the Chinese working out for ya?How did Katrina work out for ya?Better hope nothing happens to your area.How deregulation working out for ya?(checked your brakes lately?)Hows that spying on citizens working out for ya?Habeas Corpus?ahhh screw it....who needs a trial.....if the nit wit Preznit says their guilty they must be.here...watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVKCmiUg76Q&NR=1
November 15th, 2007 at 9:07 amToday's Iraq headlines (off the AP and AFP wires, times given in SA time)
SUICIDE ATTACK ON IRAQ POLICE IN KIRKUK KILLS FIVE: 08.33
Iraq to punish firms which signed oil deals with Kurds: 12:11
Suicide attack on Iraq police in Kirkuk kills seven: 13:14
US says Iraq attacks down as Iran stems arms flow: 15:59
November 15th, 2007 at 9:17 am>The Democrat Party is invested in defeat.
The Iraqis democratically choose a government much like the ones the Palestenians did. Is that a defeat for us, yes or no?
Do you understand the irony of you accusing us of censorship on a site that you are only allowed to post on because left wing sites allows dissenting views? Can you name one right wing website where dissent isnt banned?
November 15th, 2007 at 9:22 amBigfoot is 100% correct. You libs hate the fact that Iraq is finally turning around thanks to the evil George Bush. You hate it because this takes your top trump card off the table in 2008. You hate it when the deaths keep going down. It is pathetic that Americans like you can be this way.
Comment by John Kerry — November 15, 2007 @ 8:46 am
No, we don't hate the "fact" that Iraq is finally turning around due to George Bush. We hate the lie that Iraq is finally turning around due to George Bush. It's not turning around. Deaths are down slightly, but ethnic cleansing is up, political instability is up, and at least two civil wars and one cross-border war are continuing. It's only "turning around" because you people lie and say that it's "turning around."
The purpose of the surge was to allow Iraqis to make progress on the political front. Where's the progress?
November 15th, 2007 at 9:27 amhey John Kerry.....nice way to take care of our troops by cutting their med benefits....oh btw.....suicide rates are up in the military too.Yeah....I know what your going to say.....".they were phony soldiers anyway".How many in your family is over in Iraq? Me.....I have two....and another in Germany....so shut your pie hole.....nit wit.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:33 amit'll be interesting to watch the fallout over the new spending bill for this debacle called Iraq.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:38 amAnother bullshit bill:
"By December 15, 2008, all American combat soldiers would be out. In a disappointment to liberal Democrats, that date would be a nonbinding goal."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071115/pl_nm/iraq_usa_funding_dc
November 15th, 2007 at 9:56 amAnother bullshit bill:
“By December 15, 2008, all American combat soldiers would be out. In a disappointment to liberal Democrats, that date would be a nonbinding goal.â€
Comment by wijg — November 15, 2007 @ 9:56 am
Why is that a bullshit bill? 11 months is a pretty reasonable timetable for withdrawal. And realistically it has to be a non-binding date - if it's physically impossible to redeploy, the date will need to move.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:04 amWhy do you folks keep calling this redeployment. Is this out of a lefty playbook or something? I could understand if we were redeploying the troops straight to Iran, Pakistan, or Darfur, but "redeploying" them home isn't a redeployment. It is a withdrawal. At least call it what it is, you are ceeding Iraq to the terrorists because you have no faith in America or its troops.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:20 amtoasterhead ~
Seems to me if it's a 'non-binding' goal, this war will drag out forever. No one is going to convince me that our military leaders can't plan the exit date. It's another case of 'kicking the can' down the road. It's all a moot point anyway, we don't have the votes to override the veto that's sure to come.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:22 amceeding Iraq to the terrorists
As opposed to indefinite occupation of a foreign nation?
Give them their country back and give them a chance.
We've definitely "lost faith" in letting Neocon bootlickers make all the calls.
Back under your rock, oh cowardly one.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:29 amWhy do you folks keep calling this redeployment. Is this out of a lefty playbook or something?
Yes, it is. It's from that lefty playbook called the Department of Defense Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms:
I could understand if we were redeploying the troops straight to Iran, Pakistan, or Darfur, but “redeploying†them home isn’t a redeployment. It is a withdrawal. At least call it what it is, you are ceeding Iraq to the terrorists because you have no faith in America or its troops.
Comment by Roger_Roger — November 15, 2007 @ 10:20 am
Actually, a significant portion of the force would most likely remain in Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Turkey, and other bases in the region for quite some time, and there would be a significant contingent of Marines at the U.S. Embassy complex in Baghdad for an indefinite period. So whether you want to call it a withdrawal from Iraq or redeployment outside Iraq is your choice.
It is definitely not "ceeding" Iraq to "the terrorists," however. This is just asinine troll spin and you know it.
It's leaving Iraq in the hands of the shaikhs we've armed so that they can defeat the small al-Qa'ida presence in their own country and focus on building political stability in their country. And we'll give them a whole 13 months to do it, more if necessary. But we need to refocus the mission on leaving Iraq rather than on maintaining our position as referee to three civil wars.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:44 amAt least call it what it is, you are ceeding Iraq to the terrorists because you have no faith in America or its troops.
Comment by Roger_Roger — November 15, 2007 @ 10:20 am
Heheheh. Faith-based wars. Sweet. Maybe if y'all clapped harder, the Iraqis would stop killing each other?
November 15th, 2007 at 11:36 amRoger you are stupid. The term "redeployment" came from the military.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:38 pm