Conflicting stories on 25 killed in Iraq.
Conflicting stories on 25 killed in Iraq.
During a 12-hour fire fight north of Baghdad on Tuesday night, 25 armed Iraqis were killed. But local authorities disagree with the U.S. military over who exactly was killed, al Qaeda militants or anti-al Qaeda fighters:
“U.S. forces backed by aircraft killed 25 suspected insurgents in operations targeting al Qaeda militants near the Iraqi capital Baghdad, the U.S. military said on Thursday.”
VERSUS
“Iraqi officials said Thursday they were investigating whether American troops had mistakenly killed some two dozen anti-al Qaeda fighters earlier this week north of Baghdad.”
In a statement, the U.S. military said the fight began when “coalition forces observed several armed men in the target area and, perceiving hostile intent, called for supporting aircraft to engage.”
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November 15th, 2007 at 11:11 amReally depends on who needs the story to sound good. The US will always say it is Al Qaeda. It may not be the truth, but it helps bolster the "fighting them over there" line.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:18 am"If Iraqis stand up we'll stand down"
OR
"If Iraqis stand up we'll mow'em down"
November 15th, 2007 at 11:19 amI feel sad if this was a mistake.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:20 amThis entire war is insane. Neither the foreign insurgents, any of the factions fighting in the civil war, nor the civilians are wearing any uniforms stating whose side they're on, which puts our soldiers in a shoot-first-ask-questions-later mode. And once the bullets start flying, it's shoot-anything-that-moves mode.
We need to get out of this mess.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:20 amAlas, any dead body is automatically counted as a "suspected al Qaida militant". Who's to say differently?
I wish I could trust what my government tells me. It seems to be an indespensible part of a true democracy.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:22 amReally depends on who needs the story to sound good. The US will always say it is Al Qaeda. It may not be the truth, but it helps bolster the “fighting them over there†line.
Comment by Krazny — November 15, 2007 @ 11:18 am
The US has already branded all foreign mercenaries/insurgents in Iraq as "Al Qaeda" whether they are affiliated with bin Laden's group or not. This is how they can A) keep the Al Qaeda boogeyman alive and keep Americans in a state of fear, and B) maintain an imaginary tie between Iraq and 9/11.
Meanwhile, bin Laden is still at large and Al Qaeda (the real Al Qaeda) has regained strength outside of Iraq.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:23 amWhere have I heard this story before? Oh yeah, now I remember!
In 1965, Westmoreland developed the aggressive strategy of “search and destroy." The objective was to find and then kill members of the National Liberation Front, or Vietcong. U.S. soldiers found the order difficult to obey. "You never knew who was the enemy and who was the friend. They all looked alike. They all dressed alike," said a marine captain.
Innocent civilians were often killed by mistake. As another marine officer admitted, “They were usually counted as enemy dead under the unwritten rule, 'If he's dead and Vietnamese, he's VC'."
Link
November 15th, 2007 at 11:31 am25 human beings shot dead by mistake however makes me feel a little more than “sadâ€.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 15, 2007 @ 11:30 am
Well said, Bart.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:33 amComment by shoeless — November 15, 2007 @ 11:31 am
THEN: "If he’s dead and Vietnamese, he’s VC"
NOW: "If he's dead and Arab, he's Al Qaeda"
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:35 amWell, that's the classic trade-off: reduced US casualties on the ground is achieved through the increased use of air power--which has the deleterious effect of increased civilian casualties and the fog of war.
It's an acknowledgement by the administration that the statistics of battle casualties are against them, so they needed to do something to put lipstick on the pig during the runup to 2008 elections.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:36 amjust another feather in the cap of Bush the mass-murderer.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:37 amAll of the bush madness is so evil it is beyond comprehension....If our troop's were not there to begin with and now they would be home protecting our own border's from pretend and real threat's..Iraq would sort out and start rebuilding what bush broke..How much more of this eternel killing of innocent people are we going to allow?.....How many more boogie man tapes are going to show up with lies to support bushco.?.When if ever are the supporter's of the 9/11 bombing, Saudi Arabia going to pay for what they caused and supported.?? How about Israel, are we as a nation going to allow them and this administration to bomb Iran.? Seems to me there has not been enough marching in the street's and shutting our own country down to stop this terrible genocide that our own country has done....Stop the madness...Peace, Impeach...Blessings
November 15th, 2007 at 11:38 amAaah...
Best War Ever??
http://www.tshirtinsurgency.com
November 15th, 2007 at 11:42 amHey! Bodies are bodies, kill em all and let allah sort it out, right Rovian Jerkoff Commender?
November 15th, 2007 at 11:42 am#15 You think we should leave our mess to the Iraqi's? Do you think that is fair? We broke it, shouldn't we fix it?
November 15th, 2007 at 11:44 amAnd which is the most credible source? The local people who know personally those killed or the US propaganda arm of the military? Bushco has been so busy controlling the message, everything else is spinning out of control.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:49 amTroll, fu.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:50 amWe broke it, shouldn’t we fix it?
Comment by Roger_Roger — November 15, 2007 @ 11:44 am
well, certainly murdering 25 of our allies will fix it, right. You are doubly stupid, Rx2
November 15th, 2007 at 11:51 am#15 You think we should leave our mess to the Iraqi’s? Do you think that is fair? We broke it, shouldn’t we fix it?
Comment by Roger_Roger
That is a fair question Rx2. On the one hand, we did screw things up for the Iraqis - it would be nice for the CIC to admit this. On the other hand, when does our support end? It cannot be an open ended policy. The time must come when Iraq appreciates the opportunity to build their own country and govern it the way they choose. To do that, however, will take lots of cooperation and compromise's on all sides.
A definite date of withdrawl would send the proper message to the Iraqi leadership that they better get their house in order - it's been too many years already. We must do our part to honor our commitment and sacrifice, but the Iraqi's must share most of the burden.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:52 amRoger, I think we ought to turn Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Kristol, Krauthammer, Addington, and Bush over to the Iraqis, along with about half-a-trillion dollars, and ask 'em to forgive us.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:53 am#15 You think we should leave our mess to the Iraqi’s? Do you think that is fair? We broke it, shouldn’t we fix it?
Comment by Roger_Roger — November 15, 2007 @ 11:44 am
This is like trying to fix broken plates with a hammer. We would've been kicked out of the Pottery Barn by now.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:53 amHi Sharon @ 20 (I can't call you a witch),
You are wise not to respond to Rogerx2. We know the situation in Iraq cannot be fixed by the military. All they have are hammers, and every Iraqi citizen's head looks like a nail. To our shame, the people in charge, and their enablers, cannot see the immorality in the situation, all the while playing on ours to continue their fiasco.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:54 amHow is any of this being fixed? More dead people, more angry relatives and friends who will hate the US, less credibility for the US, mroe more money shoved down the toilet, and into corrupt republican connected contractors.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:55 amBush broke America, think he can fix it?
November 15th, 2007 at 11:57 amtokin librul, that would be a good start....Thank's for adding, but you forgot the wort ever, rove......Blessings
November 15th, 2007 at 11:57 amLie, steal, cheat and kill while praising jeebus and waving the flag. The GOP wants to convince the world that is what we are.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:58 amI seem to remember some information about an Iraqi operation, earlier this week, in which the locals requested the US troops (love that "coalition" nonsense) stay away specifically to avoid just this situation. Because the Iraqi forces in the area were not going to be uniformed, they were justifiably concerned that they'd be targeted as insurgents by the US forces. Maybe they just need to start wearing big signs on their backs that say "NOT A TERRORIST!"
November 15th, 2007 at 11:58 amAnd just how many times has this happened - 20? 30? 100's?
If they were wearing WEDDING clothing then we would surely know that they were AQI.
Cripes, I hate this crap. War with no end, just what GW666 & Darth Dick ordered, unending War Profiting.
Buck Fush
November 15th, 2007 at 11:59 amShoot first, ask questions later. Kid with a hair brush shot 20 times here at home. If it moves shoot it in Iraq.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:02 pmBack at ya Peter C...Good to read you here..I am practising shunning of troll's....Not hard to do these day's, they are so very evil and repetative along with stupid.....LOL...Blesssings
November 15th, 2007 at 12:03 pmThe person who said these incidents would continue to escalate, as the 'war' devolves more and more into 'precision' air-strikes only repeats what the fascists themselves were saying last winter.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:06 pmThis more and more exactly resembles the Vietnam fiasco, with the withdrawal from aggressive combat by USer ground troops, but a far greater reliance upon air-strikes which, the claims of the Cabal notwithstanding, are far deadlier to the innocent by-standers than the more intimate encounters with ground troops.
By the way, there's nothing to prohibit the hiring of more mercenaries to take up such slack on the ground as might be entailed in the propaganda-inspired promises to begin actually withdrawing troops, of which there are now more in Iraq than at any other time since the original invasion.
You think we should leave our mess to the Iraqi’s? Do you think that is fair? We broke it, shouldn’t we fix it?
Comment by Roger_Roger — November 15, 2007 @ 11:44 am
And the idiot thinks killing 25 additional Iraqis is fixing it.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:06 pmYou think we should leave our mess to the Iraqi’s? Do you think that is fair? We broke it, shouldn’t we fix it?
Comment by Roger_Roger — November 15, 2007 @ 11:44 am
Absolutely! The "BreakIt_BreakIt" method is a fantastic underpinning for the U.S. foreign policy.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:08 pmAnyway, let’s ask members of the ROP since they seem to be providing most of the bodies for allah to sort out.
Comment by Rovian Stormtrooper Commander — November 15, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Want to share what ROP is?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:12 pmWell, that’s the classic trade-off: reduced US casualties on the ground is achieved through the increased use of air power–which has the deleterious effect of increased civilian casualties and the fog of war.
Comment by mongo
There is one other reason US casualties have recently dropped that no one is talking about.
U.S. Troops Faking Patrols in Iraq To Avoid Being Blown Up
"We were hit by so many roadside bombs we became incredibly demoralized, so we decided the only way we wouldn't be blown up was to avoid driving around all the time,"
"So we would go find an open field and park, and call our base every hour to tell them we were searching for weapons caches in the fields and doing weapons patrols and everything was going fine. All our enlisted people became very disenchanted with our chain of command."- Phil Aliff 10th Mountain Division at Fort Drum
"We'd go to the end of our patrol route and set up on top of a bridge and use it as an over-watch position. We would just sit with our binoculars and observe rather than sweep. We'd call in radio checks every hour and say we were doing sweeps."
"It was a common tactic, a lot of people did that. We'd just hang out, listen to music, smoke cigarettes, and pretend."- Eli Wright, an active duty medic with the 10th Mountain division
November 15th, 2007 at 12:16 pm“You never knew who was the enemy and who was the friend. They all looked alike. They all dressed alike,†said a marine captain.
Yes, and with regards to Faluja, let's remember this golden oldie: "We had to destroy the village to save it."
November 15th, 2007 at 12:18 pmAnd here I thought ROP stood for "Republicans On Parole".
November 15th, 2007 at 12:20 pmIs a neocon troll admitting “we broke†Iraq?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 15, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
November 15th, 2007 at 12:28 pmeventually they trip over their own lies. can't be helped, with so many to choose from.
(R)eligion (O)f (P)eace. ROP.
Comment by Rovian Stormtrooper Commander — November 15, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Ah, a LGF TLA?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:28 pmlet’s ask members of the ROP since they seem to be providing most of the bodies for allah to sort out.
Comment by Rovian Stormtrooper Commander
The million of Iraqis have died for suicide bombings? Huh?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:42 pm(R)eligion (O)f (P)eace. ROP.
Comment by Rovian Stormtrooper Commander — November 15, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Ahhhh, okay. Well, that makes sense. That definitely seems to be the Evangelical Christian philosophy in other areas, so why not the war they started in Iraq?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:44 pm“We had to destroy the village to save it.â€
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper
Thank you for that reference.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:45 pmThat definitely seems to be the Evangelical Christian philosophy in other areas, so why not the war they started in Iraq?
Comment by toasterhead
Toaster, you probably much more about Islam than I do.
A Muslim professor told me that Wahabbism is due to a person name Wahab (?) who knew nothing about Islam and changed the traditional (1000 years) schools of Islam. Muslims call Wahabbism with contempt and as a mockery to followers of this current (Al-Qaeda) because it is like Christians following Phelps.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:48 pmWant to share what ROP is?
Comment by Shayne — November 15, 2007 @ 12:12 pm
(R)eligion (O)f (P)eace. ROP.
Comment by Rovian Stormtrooper Commander — November 15, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
OK Mr. Persident, still making up cute little names, what a child.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:57 pmWahabbism is to Islam what Mormonism is to Christianity.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:03 pm#15 You think we should leave our mess to the Iraqi’s? Do you think that is fair? We broke it, shouldn’t we fix it?
Comment by Roger_Roger — November 15, 2007 @ 11:44 am
This is the chance you take, trolling the progressive boards, RR. Sooner or later, the reality starts to sink in.
Defining "fixing" Iraq is the hard part. Like defining "winning". Doubtful we can every "win" by our historical definition. We can only decide the magnitude of our losses. Same with fixing...the cost to repair will only grow over time.
But this was never about "winning"....it was always about grabbing the $100 TT oil reserves that below to Big Oil. Until we, as Americans, realize the underlying motivation for this war, we will never understand why we aren't planning on leaving anytime soon.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:14 pm...THE WAR CRIMES OF THE USA...
November 15th, 2007 at 1:14 pm"that below to Big Oil"....s/b "belong to Big Oil"
November 15th, 2007 at 1:15 pmThe new little troll turddrop quote ROP, LOL,relegion of peace is like SFV screwing for virginity.....Not working and just as dumb...
November 15th, 2007 at 1:24 pmSo....tell me again, just exactly WHO is the "enemy" here....?
I'm so confused. :o(
November 15th, 2007 at 1:29 pmThe only building that is happening in IRAQ is the permanent military bases that the FACIST STATE OF AMERICA is building. The reconstruction money was stolen and missmanaged by the WAR CRIMINAL diplomat (should read mercenary) Paul Banner. Bush is mantaining the status quo because the US is stuck in a very bad situation of their own doing. The coward, weak, ignorant, arrogant, WAR CRIMINAL Geroger W. C. Bush will leave this mess to be fixed up by the next crook that takes over the White House. Obscene lies were given by the WAR CRIMINALS like Chenney, Rice, Perle, Wolfowitz, Powell, Chalabi, and all the rest of the animals that sum up Bush's JUNTA. WMD, PROGRAMS OF WMD, PROMOTIOM OF DEMOCRACY... The late one being a real joke, because the US has a very poor Historical record as SUPPORTING OR PROMOTING DEMOCRACY. Ex:Brazil, Chile, Urugauy, Paraguay, Argentina, Bolivia, amongst many other countries that had decades of MILITARY DICTATORSHIP BACKED BY WHASHINGTON. But the most tipical example would be NICARAGUA, Where The FACIST STATE OF AMERICA financed terrorist milicias to opose a democratic elected president. Ask Negroponte! This animal knows all about how the US (FSA) financed terrorists, and teatch other how to TORTURE!
November 15th, 2007 at 1:31 pmFrom the linked article: "While security has improved, Iraq's leaders have made little progress at the national level in healing deep divisions between majority Shi'ites and minority Sunni Arabs who were dominant under Saddam Hussein."
Then there was this, from today's Washington Post:
CAMP LIBERTY, Iraq -- Senior military commanders here now portray the intransigence of Iraq's Shiite-dominated government as the key threat facing the U.S. effort in Iraq, rather than al-Qaeda terrorists, Sunni insurgents or Iranian-backed militias.
In more than a dozen interviews, U.S. military officials expressed growing concern over the Iraqi government's failure to capitalize on sharp declines in attacks against U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians. A window of opportunity has opened for the government to reach out to its former foes, said Army Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, the commander of day-to-day U.S. military operations in Iraq, but "it's unclear how long that window is going to be open."
The lack of political progress calls into question the core rationale behind the troop buildup President Bush announced in January, which was premised on the notion that improved security would create space for Iraqis to arrive at new power-sharing arrangements. And what if there is no such breakthrough by next summer? "If that doesn't happen," Odierno said, "we're going to have to review our strategy."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/14/AR2007111402524.html?wpisrc=newsletter
November 15th, 2007 at 1:49 pmWahabbism is to Islam what Mormonism is to Christianity.
Comment by tokin librul — November 15, 2007 @ 1:03 pm
I'm not a Morman, but have read the Book of Morman and known many as my friends. That's quite a stretch, my friend. The comparison is much more like conventional Christianity and the extreme Christian Right. Both pick and choose the most violent and repressive scriptures from their Holy Books to justify their own violence and judgement of others.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:09 pmA Muslim professor told me that Wahabbism is due to a person name Wahab (?) who knew nothing about Islam and changed the traditional (1000 years) schools of Islam. Muslims call Wahabbism with contempt and as a mockery to followers of this current (Al-Qaeda) because it is like Christians following Phelps.
Comment by Juan C. — November 15, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
I'm not sure of the origins of Wahabbism, but that is how most Muslims I know regard it - a lunatic, fanatic fringe akin to followers of Pat Robertson or Fred Phelps.
Granted, most Muslims I know are left-leaning secular academic types who go to the mosque twice a year and can drink me under the table, but I think it's reflective of the prevailing view.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pmI wouldn't compare Wahabbism to Mormonism. I would compare it to things like the "Christian Identity Movement." After all, an adherent to that radical movement killed 168 Americans in an act of terrorism in Oklahoma City. Mormons haven't been terrorists (or terrorized, for that matter) since the 19th century.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:34 pm