ThinkFast: November 20, 2007
ThinkFast: November 20, 2007
“New Orleans lost out in the competition to host one of the 2008 presidential debates Monday after the commission that selects the sites decided that the city has not sufficiently recovered from Hurricane Katrina to handle such a major event.”
The FBI released its hate crime statistics for 2006 showing an increase of 7.8 percent. The Southern Poverty Law Center says the FBI report “severely flawed,” noting that Alabama reported only one hate crime in 2006, while Mississippi and Hawaii did not report any hate crimes at all. “In fact, the level of hate crimes in the United States is astoundingly high — more than 190,000 incidents per year.”
CQ reports that Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) “is ready to play nice when considering President Bush’s latest round of nominees to fill a raft of vacancies in the upper echelons of the Justice Department.” After Bush reportedly called him at home, Leahy pledged, “I’m going to try to move as quickly as I can on them.”
CBS’s “60 Minutes” is gathering information in Alabama about the case of incarcerated former Gov. Don Siegelman. Siegelman’s prosecution was opposed by DoJ prosecutors and was reportedly interfered with by Bush administration political operatives.
While the violence in Baghdad declines, “northern Iraq has become more violent than other regions as al-Qaida and other militants move there to avoid coalition operations elsewhere.” “What you’re seeing is the enemy shifting,” Army Maj. Gen. Mark P. Hertling told reporters yesterday.
When the House voted on Iraq redeployment legislation last week, three Republicans — Reps. Chris Shays (R-CT), Jim Walsh (R-NY) and Phil English (R-PA) — “voted to order withdrawal for the first time,” likely influenced by the tough re-election campaigns they face in ‘08.
“US contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan more than doubled from 2004 to 2006 to over 25 billion dollars but government oversight of the firms involved has slackened,” reports the Center for Public Integrity. Former Halliburton subsidiary KBR topped the list with more than $16 billion in U.S. contracts.
“Apparel retailer Gap is canceling half of its orders with a vendor in India and promises to donate $200,000 to improve working conditions there. The move comes after revelations that some of its clothes were made by children as young as 10.”
And finally: “Robert Novak is a prince, all right, and every member of royalty needs a chariot befitting his title. That must be why the right-leaning columnist and author of ‘Prince of Darkness’ was spotted pulling up to the Capitol on Friday in his sleek (and slightly menacing-looking) black Corvette convertible.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Northern Iraq isnt the friendliest place for your average AQ scumbag, the fact that they have no place left to run except perilously close to the Kurds is good news.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:08 amRight. New Orleans can host the college football BCS Championship game but, it can’t handle the few little twerps that either side doesn’t want to send there. They just can’t stand to have to face the people of New Orleans and maybe have to answer real questions about real people and real problems.
Politicians just SUCK!
November 20th, 2007 at 9:09 amCQ reports that Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) “is ready to play nice when considering President Bush’s latest round of nominees to fill a raft of vacancies in the upper echelons of the Justice Department.†After Bush reportedly called him at home, Leahy pledged, “I’m going to try to move as quickly as I can on them.â€
Now, Pat aren’t you forgetting some things that you have asked for nicely from the President? What did you get? Bubkis. Remember your supoenas? What? Again nothing? But you’re willing to still bend over for the President? All hope is gone.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:10 amOh…and Novak was seen driving a black Corvette, and a slightly menacing-looking one at that? Whoa, that IS big news.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:10 amRobert Novak…was spotted pulling up to the Capitol on Friday in his sleek (and slightly menacing-looking) black Corvette convertible.â€
Novakula should be in a black paddy wagon, not a Corvette. This assclown has put good Americans in bad places via his potty mouth and conservaturd ramblings.
He should be charged, along with Cheney & Rove, with treason against all honest, hard working Americans.
Nancy?…
November 20th, 2007 at 9:12 amNorthern Iraq isnt the friendliest place for your average AQ scumbag, the fact that they have no place left to run except perilously close to the Kurds is good news.
Comment by Minotaur — November 20, 2007 @ 9:08 am
This is the outlook you get on things when you spend your life in the center of a maze. Every twisted path looks like a way out from that point of view.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:13 amWhat does it mean that Leahy is going to act quickly on w’s nominees. What threats were made that Leahy would roll over so easily. Apparently the vetting will be cursory and just enough to say “we didn’t know about that problem. Everything we saw was just fine.” I guess the tough talk was just a facade.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:13 amRobert Novak…was spotted pulling up to the Capitol on Friday in his sleek (and slightly menacing-looking) black Corvette convertible.â€
Is this supposed to sexy or something? C’mon, really? Novakula should be charged with high treason against all honest, hard working Americans. He’s put some good people in a bad place and is being rewarded for it.
Black Corvette or black paddy wagon?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:13 amTroll Comments, November 20, 2007 @ 9:08 am and ! 9:10 am – TROLL DUNG
If you want to see what happens when progressives respond to trolls on the Think Progress threads, go to http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/19/oreilly-redacted-ad/#comments (See: Comment by hterrya — November 20, 2007 @ 5:00 am – it is currently listed as Comment #160) for a HORRIBLE example! The TP Moderator has been kind enough to let my post stand, so you can see for yourself what a destructive mess trolls, and our response to trolls, make.
So, if you agree that it is a shame to let this happen to Think Progress threads, TP has given us the tools to use. When a troll has been identified (as I just did in my first sentence to this post), do not respond to the troll; report it for abuse. It is the only way to have a decent exchange of ideas among progressives on the topics that Think Progress has been kind enough to provide for us.
Thank you.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:14 amEven though Bob Novak isn’t one of my favorite people, I support his right to drive whatever he wants, and I fail to see his Corvette as news. Of course, I wish he would drive something that gulps gas a bit less — like a Toyota Prius.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:14 amSorry about the double post.
Come to think of it, that probably should have been said twice.
Novak sucks.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:15 amWhat did we miss? Let us know in the comments section
Even the Gray Lady is finally admitting that the surge has brought a remarkable level of stability to Baghdad.
Thanks to the awesome U.S. military, working creatively with the locals, AQ and the rest of the insurgent murderers are on the run north, straight into the arms of the Kurds.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:16 amYou can write Patrick Leahy at:
senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov
I just did. I’m tired of the Democrats caving to Bully Boy Bush.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:20 amTroll Coment, November 20, 2007 @ 9:16 am – TROLL DUNG
November 20th, 2007 at 9:20 amI suspect that the hate crime statistics are about as accurate as the death toll in Iraq. Both are no doubt underreported due to counting methodology.
Still, the number of hate crimes is shameful, and somewhat surprising considering that here in the 21st century we should be more enlightened than we have in the past. I suppose no matter how much time passes, bigots will always be with us.
I would be interested to know where most of the hate is directed. The stats don’t seem to be broken down by race hatred, religious bigotry, and gay bashing.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:20 amYou can write Patrick Leahy at:
senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov
I just did. I’m tired of the Democrats caving to Bully Boy Bush.
Comment by bilbobaggins — November 20, 2007 @ 9:20 am
Thanks, bilbo for the email address. I will do the same.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:21 amWhat IS the problem, hterrya? Am I not responding to the TF thread as was requested by the moderator? So far everyone seems to be commenting on the thread items except for you.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:21 amGeez, people.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:22 amthe “And Finally” post is always something light and attempting to be funny. It’s never serious or poignant. A few weeks ago it was about Sen. Sherrod Brown’s shoes.
US-Iran: Raid on nuclear fuel market
This is a must read for all your interlects it explain everything thats going on , read from beginning to end The biggest Truth of US and Iran problems are the future Nuclear markets
http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=551761
November 20th, 2007 at 9:22 amwe now have an anti-Iranian alliance of the US and E3. They smell the opportunity for a coup to seize world’s nuclear fuel market. To succeed, they would just need some legal sauce on the prohibition of uranium enrichment by non-nuclear-weapon states, with Iran as example. And a UN Security Council resolution would be enough, if it legalizes IAEA’s stand that it can forbid countries to enrich uranium.
Of course, they would make it impossible for Iran to stay within the Non-Proliferation Treaty then. To succeed their coup, they will have to take care, that Iran does not leave the organization before a resolution is successfully voted. For if so, there would not be any ground for a resolution anymore. Countries outside the Non-Proliferation treaty, like Israel, India, Pakistan, Cuba and Brazil are free to enrich uranium and do what they want.
The question is: will the US and E3 succeed in seducing Russia and China?
In the event, that such a coup of the nuclear-weapon states would succeed, it would probably put the Non-Proliferation Treaty and the UNO under enormous strain. These organizations might loose all credibility and see many non-nuclear-weapon states leave. The result may be opposite to what these organizations were designed for.
http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=551761
November 20th, 2007 at 9:24 am“Apparel retailer Gap is canceling half of its orders with a vendor in India and promises to donate $200,000 to improve working conditions there. The move comes after revelations that some of its clothes were made by children as young as 10.â€
We often hear stories like this one. Retailers NEVER investigate the overseas sweatshops cranking out their products, and only take action when “revelations” of improper working conditions make their way to the MSM. Why wouldn’t a retailer take the time to check out how their products are made, no matter where in the world it’s happening? I guess the time and cost of such an investigation would cut into profits — and that’s the only thing that matters to corporate greedheads. I predict that once this blows over, 10-year olds will again be making clothes for The Gap.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:25 am“US contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan more than doubled from 2004 to 2006 to over 25 billion dollars but government oversight of the firms involved has slackened,†reports the Center for Public Integrity. Former Halliburton subsidiary KBR topped the list with more than $16 billion in U.S. contracts.
“Government oversight has slackened”….I think it is more like “is nonexistent”. Have you read anywhere where a contractor has been held accountable for ripping off the taxpayer? I know I haven’t. I’m really tired of us borrowing money from China to stuff into the pockets of FOB’s with no return on our investment.
Come on Democrats. If you want to save this country, it’s time to impeach.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:26 amHeh. I wouldn’t think that Novakula would have the brains to drive a vette. I drive one and I get 28 mpg. 15 or 16 gallon tank. I fill up every two weeks. Works for me.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:30 amRetailers NEVER investigate the overseas sweatshops cranking out their products,
Of course they dont and you wont find most Americans giving it a thought either, mainly because we like the idea of buying a decent shirt for ten or fifteen bucks.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:30 am#12,
Putz, it has to do with the final stages of ethnic cleansing that has gone on for several years there, now that neighborhoods are more homogeneous skirmishes have declined.
Do you really believe these idiots, the same that told us we’d be there (and by we they certainly didn’t mean them and their ilk) weeks or months but certainly not years. I have some lovely vacation land to sell you.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:31 amNorthern Iraq isnt the friendliest place for your average AQ scumbag, the fact that they have no place left to run except perilously close to the Kurds is good news.
Comment by Minotaur — November 20, 2007 @ 9:08 am
#
So, what happens when the Turks annihilate the Kurds? Or when they find they can just as easily move down to Basra or al-Nasaria? AQI repre4sents less than 4% of the insurgent population. They could leave completely, considering that they weren’t there before the war anyway, and we would still have the other 96% of insurgents there.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:32 amDon’t you people understand the rule of law? Don Siegelman committed the crime of being a Democrat in an election. The foolish people opposed to prosecuting him just did not read deeply enough into the Constitution, otherwise they would have seen that his candidacy was illegal.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:34 amPutz, it has to do with the final stages of ethnic cleansing that has gone on for several years there, now that neighborhoods are more homogeneous skirmishes have declined.
Then you havent been keeping up with other data that doesnt originate from DU about mixed Sunni/Shia community groups gettting together to work out their problems.
I realize that you want to write-off the Iraqis as a bunch of tribal hicks but I will give them more credit in taking the peaceful steps they know need to be taken.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:39 amBilbo at 23, why are you talking about FOBs in relation to contractors ripping off the US people? Bill has been out of office for over six years. The contrators now swilling at the public trough owe nothing to Bill. Continuing to throw him into the mix just furthers the rethug talking points.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:40 amComment by Minotaur
The surge was supposed to give the Iraqi leadership time to work out their problems. But nothing has occurred on that front. Your “good news” is a sham.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:41 amevery one of the links on the NOVAK post was useless…
and, how does he get into, especially OUT of, a vette…?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:41 am.
Hate crimes up. Violent crime rate up. Infant mortality rate up. Deficit up. Dollar hemorrhaging. Pollution up. Military suicides up. Cost of war up. Corruption way the hell up. Distrust of government up. World terrorism up. Depression up. Desertions up. War crimes up. Government bureaucracy up. Bridge collapses up. Imprisonment rate up.
Go, Republicans!
November 20th, 2007 at 9:43 amAQI repre4sents less than 4% of the insurgent population. They could leave completely, considering that they weren’t there before the war anyway, and we would still have the other 96% of insurgents there.
AQI is nothing other than a PR ploy by the Bush Administration. They decided to name some insurgents AQI and the insurgents were only too glad to oblige them because they thought it made them seem bigger and badder. The real AQ isn’t in the least interested in Iraq. They have bigger fish to fry.
Here’s a question no one has been able to answer. How do we know who is “AQI” and who is an insurgent? Does the AQI wear armbands saying “Hi, I’m AQI”?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:43 amNew Orleans lost out in the competition
Kind of a slap in the face after a kick in the ass.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:45 amBilbo at 23, why are you talking about FOBs in relation to contractors ripping off the US people? Bill has been out of office for over six years. The contrators now swilling at the public trough owe nothing to Bill. Continuing to throw him into the mix just furthers the rethug talking points.
Comment by BearCountry
I am not referring to Clinton. FOB means “Friends of Bush”. Nice try, though.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:45 amWhile the violence in Baghdad declines, “northern Iraq has become more violent than other regions as al-Qaida and other militants move there to avoid coalition operations elsewhere.†“What you’re seeing is the enemy shifting,†Army Maj. Gen. Mark P. Hertling told reporters yesterday.
The old feather pillow syndrome. As FDR said of the Navy Department, you smack it on one side, and it just fluffs up on the other.
Whack an insurgent here, and they pop up over there.
Shall we lose another several thousand troops playing this deadly game, or declare the game over, pronounce victory and get the hell out of there?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:45 amThank you.
Comment by hterrya — November 20, 2007 @ 9:14 am
You’re not welcome. Your incessant posting about trolls is as annoying, if not more disruptive, than some of the alleged trolls’ posts. If you want to report or ignore someone, fine, do it. The rest of us will make up our minds about when to do so. I have decided to flag any post you make concerning reporting trolls.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:46 amThen you havent been keeping up with other data that doesnt originate from DU about mixed Sunni/Shia community groups gettting together to work out their problems.
Comment by Minotaur
Link to proof of this assertion. Proof means something other than your wingnut talking head sites and Faux Noise.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:46 amYou’re not welcome. Your incessant posting about trolls is as annoying, if not more disruptive, than some of the alleged trolls’ posts. If you want to report or ignore someone, fine, do it. The rest of us will make up our minds about when to do so. I have decided to flag any post you make concerning reporting trolls.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian
Excuse me, but he has just as much right to point out the uselessness of responding to trolls as you to do clutter up every thread responding to trolls. Who appointed you god? Personally I’m glad that he reminds us of how useless it is to respond to trolls. It helps me not slip into a “whack a troll mode”. But if you want your right to play with trolls, then you need to allow others right to protest your playing with trolls.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:49 amThe surge was supposed to give the Iraqi leadership time to work out their problems. But nothing has occurred on that front. Your “good news†is a sham.
Comment by barfly — November 20, 2007 @ 9:41 am
It has given them time and room especially when you consider that the fate and the will of the populace has to be on their side. Has the Iraqi government formed the perfect Jeffersonian democracy yet, no, but with a greater peace settling through the capitol they have a greater chance of stabilizing the political situation.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:52 amThe improvements in Anbar have much to do with the paying off of tribal chieftains to out AQI. What’s going to happen when the payments stop? Or will they stop? Who’s going to keep footing the bill?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:55 amTrolls, whip out your credit cards, this one’s on you.
The will of the Iraqi populace is to have us get the hell out. I don’t see that happening much, so where does the democracy part come in?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:56 amIt has given them time and room especially when you consider that the fate and the will of the populace has to be on their side. Has the Iraqi government formed the perfect Jeffersonian democracy yet, no, but with a greater peace settling through the capitol they have a greater chance of stabilizing the political situation.
Comment by Minotaur — November 20, 2007 @ 9:52 am
Is this before or after the Sadrists defect from the government? The major Sunni players have already left, soon it’ll be just the Kurds and the Dawa. How do you expect them to have a better chance to stabilize the political situation if there’s nobody left in Iraqi politics?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:58 am“Has the Iraqi government formed the perfect Jeffersonian democracy yet, no, but with a greater peace settling through the capitol they have a greater chance of stabilizing the political situation.”
Comment by Minotaur
By every metric, the surge has failed. This pie-in-the-sky hope is the same that’s been trotted out for the last four years, with the Iraqi leadership still unable to govern. Corruption is endemic, and insurgents are shaking down Iraqi businesses for money for weapons, and large numbers of American troops aren’t even going on missions anymore, opting to just sit in remote areas while calling in fake missions. Get your head out of the clouds, and look at the situation realistically.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:59 amExcuse me, but he has just as much right to point out the uselessness of responding to trolls as you to do clutter up every thread responding to trolls. Who appointed you god? Personally I’m glad that he reminds us of how useless it is to respond to trolls. It helps me not slip into a “whack a troll modeâ€. But if you want your right to play with trolls, then you need to allow others right to protest your playing with trolls.
Comment by bilbobaggins — November 20, 2007 @ 9:49 am
Excuse me, but I also have the right to point out how much I think he clutters up the threads. I have also suggested at times that a particular troll be ignored but I don’t get all arrogant or repetitive about it.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:59 amComment by bilbobaggins — November 20, 2007 @ 9:49 am
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian November 20, 2007 @ 9:59 am
Just a thought, but arguing about trolls does their work for them.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:04 amBy every metric, the surge has failed. This pie-in-the-sky hope is the same that’s been trotted out for the last four years, with the Iraqi leadership still unable to govern. Corruption is endemic
No, the metric has changed according to those in our government who kept moving the goalposts every time success became apparent. First it had to be political success, when that started to take shape even a bit it became security. Now that security is rapidly improving the aim is back to instant American-style democracy.
We have corruption in our own government across the board with over 200 years of practice behind us; the Iraqis are new to this game. It sounds as if you just want to write them off and get out.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:07 amHere’s a question no one has been able to answer. How do we know who is “AQI†and who is an insurgent? Does the AQI wear armbands saying “Hi, I’m AQI�
Comment by bilbobaggins — November 20, 2007 @ 9:43 am
The group we know as AQI does actually self-identify as al-Qa’ida in Iraq, al-Qa’ida of Mesopotamia, or more verbosely as Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (Organization of Jihad’s Base in the Country of the Two Rivers). They’re the group that was founded by Abu Musab az-Zarqawi, and now operate under the umbrella of the Islamic State of Iraq, which comprises AQI and seven other Sunni insurgent groups. AQI/ISI has a very well-developed PR wing, issuing press releases and videos of major attacks on coalition forces, Iraqi police, and “Shi’ite dogs,” as well as general information brochures and pamphlets and whatnot.
However, it’s not always easy to tell who exactly is a member of the group. Coalition forces tend to label anyone they pick up carrying an ISI pamphlet as an al-Qa’ida insurgent. Detainees will also occasionally self-identify as al-Qa’ida members just to look tough in front of their cellmates, though they may have no connection whatsoever.
For this reason
November 20th, 2007 at 10:11 am“northern Iraq has become more violent than other regions as al-Qaida and other militants move there to avoid coalition operations elsewhere.†“What you’re seeing is the enemy shifting,†Army Maj. Gen. Mark P. Hertling told reporters yesterday.
Way to cherry-pick TP, how about this bit just a tad further down the article:
“The attacks are still much higher than I would like here in the north, but they are continuing to decrease in numbers and scale of attacks,” he said.
Hertling said 1,830 roadside bombs were placed in his region in June, compared with 900 last month.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:11 amWe have corruption in our own government across the board with over 200 years of practice behind us; the Iraqis are new to this game. It sounds as if you just want to write them off and get out.
Comment by Minotaur — November 20, 2007 @ 10:07 am
Iraqis have been doing corrupt government ever since Winston Churchill invented them in 1919. They are most definitely not new to the “games” of governance or democacy. They are also not new to being a semi-permanent colony of Western oil interests. Perhaps it’s time to let them actually try self-determination for once.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:17 amHertling said 1,830 roadside bombs were placed in his region in June, compared with 900 last month.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 10:11 am
The fact that insurgents planted “only” 900 roadside bombs in a single region of Iraq is not really something to boast about.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:20 amtoasterhead
The fact that insurgents planted “only†900 roadside bombs in a single region of Iraq is not really something to boast about.
True, but at the same time a 50% reduction is something worth boasting about.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:27 amThis message is for hterra:
Be careful in your crusade to ban trolls. Nothing that Minotaur said in (current) posts 4 and 14 can be construed as trolling, IMO. He simply stated his (incorrect) opinion on topics in the Thinkfast Thread. Yes, he’s an obstinate fool, but he is also exercising his right to post on TP, just like the rest of us.
If a troll posts a trolling comment, then you flag them. You don’t simply flag them because they post any comment at all. If you go that route, then you give fuel to their argument that Think Progress is now an echo chamber and that we’re no better than the conservative blogs we bash.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:29 amTrue, but at the same time a 50% reduction is something worth boasting about.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 10:27 am
No, it’s really not. It’s one data point. It’s the equivalent of looking at a forecast of cold weather for today and boasting that we’re beating Global Warming.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:33 amtoasterhead
It’s actually two data points.
So if they had posted the road side bomb numbers for July, August, Sept, and October also would it be good then? Or would it still just be data points?
November 20th, 2007 at 10:38 amSo if they had posted the road side bomb numbers for July, August, Sept, and October also would it be good then? Or would it still just be data points?
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 10:38 am
Yes. And if they all showed 900+ roadside bombings per month, I would not consider them measures of success.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:41 am#12 Well-said, Minotaur….Al Qaeda in Iraq is clearly on the run.
More from today’s New York Times story in which it (begrudgingly) reports on the remarkable success of the surge and Gen. Petraeus’ strategy:
Baghdad Starts to Exhale as Security Improves
BAGHDAD, Nov. 19 —
“Five months ago, Suhaila al-Aasan lived in an oxygen tank factory with her husband and two sons, convinced that they would never go back to their apartment in Dora, a middle-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad.
Today she is home again, cooking by a sunlit window, sleeping beneath her favorite wedding picture. And yet, she and her family are remarkably alone. The half-dozen other apartments in her building echo with emptiness and, on most days, Iraqi soldiers are the only neighbors she sees.
“I feel happy,†she said, standing in her bedroom, between a flowered bedspread and a bullet hole in the wall. “But my happiness is not complete. We need more people to come back. We need more people to feel safe.â€
Mrs. Aasan, 45, a Shiite librarian with an easy laugh, is living at the far end of Baghdad’s tentative recovery. She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move.
The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad’s streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says.
As a result, for the first time in nearly two years, people are moving with freedom around much of this city. In more than 50 interviews across Baghdad, it became clear that while there were still no-go zones, more Iraqis now drive between Sunni and Shiite areas for work, shopping or school, a few even after dark.
In the most stable neighborhoods of Baghdad, some secular women are also dressing as they wish. Wedding bands are playing in public again, and at a handful of once shuttered liquor stores customers now line up outside in a collective rebuke to religious vigilantes from the Shiite Mahdi Army.
Iraqis are clearly surprised and relieved to see commerce and movement finally increase, five months after an extra 30,000 American troops arrived in the country.”
November 20th, 2007 at 10:42 amtoasterhead
Yes. And if they all showed 900+ roadside bombings per month, I would not consider them measures of success.
I guess I’m just confused why you can’t be happy that there has been a 50% reduction. It’s not as good as a 100% reduction, but its still 50% less bombs planted to kill people.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:44 amI guess I’m just confused why you can’t be happy that there has been a 50% reduction. It’s not as good as a 100% reduction, but its still 50% less bombs planted to kill people.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 10:44 am
I just think that 900 bombs planted in a single region of Iraq is about 900 too many. I really can’t be happy about that. Sorry. I just value Iraqi and American lives, I guess.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:48 am#41,
At what cost in American lives and treasure?
Dick Cheney told us years ago when he was selling the wisdom of the first President Bush about the cost of going into Iraq that the loss of American lives was clearly not worth it, what has changed, other than of course the opportunity for his friends to cash in?
What was Rumsfeld prediction of the cost of the war, and that it would be paid for by oil profits, yeah good call you pathetic old man.
So I ask again at what cost in American lives and treasure?
Stay the course, stay the course, stay the course, stay the course, stay the course…brilliant plan.
By the way I have a brother over there and yes they are a bunch of backward assed hillbilly’s, clearly not worth one more dime or life.
Sell crazy somewhere else.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:53 amtoasterhead
I just value Iraqi and American lives, I guess.
So then you should be happy that the number is reduced by 1/2. As a measure of progress, this would seem to be a good measure.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:57 amIraqis are clearly surprised and relieved to see commerce and movement finally increase, five months after an extra 30,000 American troops arrived in the country.â€
Comment by Exley — November 20, 2007 @ 10:42 am
And poor little Ex-lax clearly suffers from memory problems.
Petraeus adviser: Violence reduction due to ‘luck.’
Nov 15, 2007
In an interview with the Council on Foreign Relations, Gen. David Petraeus’s adviser Stephen Biddle said that much of the U.S.’s recent “tactical successes†in Iraq have little to do with the impact of Bush’s escalation but instead are largely “luck.â€
Hey, Ex-lax, if life is now so sweet in Iraq, why did all those State Dept employees damned near wet themselves at the prospect of having to go over there? Didn’t one of them whine it was tanamount to a “death sentence”?
November 20th, 2007 at 10:57 amSo then you should be happy that the number is reduced by 1/2. As a measure of progress, this would seem to be a good measure.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 10:57 am
Whoop-de-freaking-doo. There. I’ve just celebrated. Happy now?
November 20th, 2007 at 10:58 amtoasterhead
Whoop-de-freaking-doo. There. I’ve just celebrated. Happy now?
Yes.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:00 am“Iraqis are clearly surprised and relieved to see commerce and movement finally increase, five months after an extra 30,000 American troops arrived in the country.â€
Comment by Exley —
And I’m continually surprised that you still fall for this crap from the NYT, which, as we all know, rushed unfounded rumor into print to make the case for invasion.
This anecdotal evidence you provide doesn’t disprove that there are still factional gangs kidnapping Iraqis to fund terrorist operations, dysfunctional and corrupt bureaucrats funneling US tax dollars to insurgents, servicemen who’ve decided to opt-out of doing actual military operations, by calling in bogus military operations, pending Tukish military operations in the Kurdish areas, the highest rates to date of suicide and desertion by American soldiers who refuse to go back for a forth tour of duty, or the staggering costs yet unseen of a new generation of homeless veterans.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:05 amComment by Mr. Evil — November 20, 2007 @ 9:09 am
Right on! You’re not so evil, after all.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:06 am“So then you should be happy that the number is reduced by 1/2. As a measure of progress, this would seem to be a good measure.”
Comment by Squegeeboo
That’s like saying during ww 2 that the germans are only gassing half as many victims, so it would seem to be good news.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:07 am“And I’m continually surprised that you still fall for this crap from the NYT, which, as we all know, rushed unfounded rumor into print…”
Uh huh…..
From the BBC:
Is Iraq getting better?
By Jim Muir
BBC News, Baghdad
Is Iraq getting better? The statistics say so, across the board.
Over the past three months, there has been a sharp and sustained drop in all forms of violence. The figures for dead and wounded, military and civilian, have also greatly improved.
All across Baghdad, which has seen the worst of the violence, streets are springing back to life. Shops and restaurants which closed down are back in business.
People walk in crowded streets in the evening, when just a few months ago they would have been huddled behind locked doors in their homes.
Everybody agrees that things are much better.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:10 amYes.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 11:00 am
Good. Now, I expect you’ll be mourning the victims of those other 900 roadside bombs that weren’t not planted last month, right?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:11 amtoasterhead
Good. Now, I expect you’ll be mourning the victims of those other 900 roadside bombs that weren’t not planted last month, right?
Correct.
barfly
November 20th, 2007 at 11:17 amThat’s like saying during ww 2 that the germans are only gassing half as many victims, so it would seem to be good news.
Well it’s better news than if they had gassed all the victims.
Well it’s better news than if they had gassed all the victims.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 11:17 am
But it’s not good news. Good news is when there are no bombings, like before Bushco invaded and started its program of mass murder and oil theft. This sick focus on fewer innocents being killed because there are fewer innocents to kill is indicative of the right’s immorality and bloodlust, and the right’s willingness to lie to themselves so that they don’t have to face the truth of their massive failures and the fraud perpetrated on the American public by sociopathic racists. You wingnuts show your inhumanity with every ignorant post supporting the 21st-century Hitler, Dick Cheney, and his puppet Bush.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:37 amGood news is when there are no bombings, like before Bushco invaded and started its program of mass murder and oil theft. This sick focus on fewer innocents being killed because there are fewer innocents to kill is indicative of the right’s immorality and bloodlust, and the right’s willingness to lie to themselves so that they don’t have to face the truth of their massive failures and the fraud perpetrated on the American public by sociopathic racists. You wingnuts show your inhumanity with every ignorant post supporting the 21st-century Hitler, Dick Cheney, and his puppet Bush.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — November 20, 2007 @ 11:37 am
Exactly.
And a 50% reduction in the number of roadside bombs doesn’t translate to a 50% reduction in casualties. If the insurgents are using fewer bombs and killing more people with each one, then it’s really not a success at all. It’s just more efficient terrorism.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:45 am“Good news is when there are no bombings, like before Bushco invaded and started its program of mass murder”
Yes, because as we all know, there were no killings of innocent Iraqis or terror during Saddam’s regime.
Wow.
A reminder:
Babies found in Iraqi mass grave — BBC
A mass grave being excavated in a north Iraqi village has yielded evidence that Iraqi forces executed women and children under Saddam Hussein.
US-led investigators have located nine trenches in Hatra containing hundreds of bodies believed to be Kurds killed during the repression of the 1980s.
The skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:50 amIraqis have been doing corrupt government ever since Winston Churchill invented them in 1919. They are most definitely not new to the “games†of governance or democacy. They are also not new to being a semi-permanent colony of Western oil interests. Perhaps it’s time to let them actually try self-determination for once.
Comment by toasterhead — November 20, 2007 @ 10:17 am
Um, guys? This is where civilization began? Corruption is as old as Irrigation in Mesopotamia. You could argue they invented both. Alexander the Great lamented endemic corruption when he conquered the area 23 centuries ago. Just saying.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:51 amtoasterhead
If the insurgents are using fewer bombs and killing more people with each one, then it’s really not a success at all. It’s just more efficient terrorism.
Also FTA
Meigs said that while the total number of IED attacks has declined markedly in recent months, the proportion of such attacks that result in U.S. casualties has dropped more slowly.
So while casualties aren’t also down 50%, they are also down. Not up.
Lefty Patriot
I love your guys outlook. More bombings are bad news, also, less bombings are still bad news. Regardless of what progress is made, it’s always bad to you guys. It must be nice to follow such a blind ideology.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:53 amComment by Exley — November 20, 2007 @ 11:50 am
So what you’re saying is…”Saddam did it too”?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:54 amMissmolly,
What I am clearly saying is that Left Patriot is being disingenuous (to put it mildly) when he implies that Iraq under Saddam was some type of oasis of peace and enlightened rule before he was overthrown.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:00 pmThe skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.
Comment by Exley — November 20, 2007 @ 11:50 am
well, it’s nice of Exley and the other brainless motormouths to compare Bush and Saddam so favorably; it pretty much strengthens what I’ve been saying all along. Saddam was a known quantity, contained and controlled, and had eliminated all of his political enemies (with lots of Republican help, let’s not forget), and Iraq was indeed reasonably peaceful before Bush got his hard-on. You can believe the liars, Exley, or you can believe your own eyes, I don’t care.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:13 pmlove your guys outlook. More bombings are bad news, also, less bombings are still bad news. Regardless of what progress is made, it’s always bad to you guys. It must be nice to follow such a blind ideology.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 11:53 am
it was wrong from the beginning, it’s wrong now. That’s the outlook, shared by most of the world. You few die-hard koolaid-swillers are the only ones defending the indefensible, and ignoring hte trashing of American and international law. You are fools and tools, that’s what’s clear.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:15 pmI love your guys outlook. More bombings are bad news, also, less bombings are still bad news. Regardless of what progress is made, it’s always bad to you guys. It must be nice to follow such a blind ideology.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 11:53 am
It’s a pretty simple outlook. Bombings are bad. Whether it’s 10 or 900 or 1,800 or 2,700 IEDs per month is immaterial. Any number of improvised explosive devices killing and maiming innocent people is too many.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:56 pmIt must be nice to follow such a blind ideology.
Comment by Squegeeboo — November 20, 2007 @ 11:53 am
You would know.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:58 pmtoasterhead
It’s a pretty simple outlook.
Yes, and like most simple outlooks, it’s flawed. In this case, because it completely ignores any progress being made. Of course anyone being killed or maimed is a horrible thing, but to ignore a drop of 50% in total bombs as well as a reduction in injury/deaths caused by those bombs because people are still being hurt/killed is flawed logic. While wanting the total number to continue to decrease, hopefully to 0, there is nothing wrong with noticing and accepting the progress that has been made over the past few months.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:10 pmWhat I am clearly saying is that Left Patriot is being disingenuous (to put it mildly) when he implies that Iraq under Saddam was some type of oasis of peace and enlightened rule before he was overthrown.
Comment by Exley — November 20, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
I figured that’s what you were going after. Both you and Lefty Patriot were practicing a relativism that’s really pretty pointless. One can play the “things are worse now — things were worse under Saddam” game all day. The fact is, it really doesn’t matter what it was like under Saddam — what matters is if the Iraqis have a quality of life that’s acceptable now.
Yes, Saddam was a complete scumbag who tortured and murdered whose who posed a threat to his regime. It wasn’t all hunky-dory in Iraq when he was in power. Saddam Hussein was not a nice man. On the other hand, there were no bombings under Saddam (Lefty Patriot was correct on that one), one could walk in the streets without getting shot (unless you were a Saddam target), and the country was stable. Under Saddam, the Iraqis had electricity and cholera-free water.
The fact is, life is still pretty dismal for most Iraqis. There’s a lot of work left to do.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:58 pmHate Crimes are hateful things. I wrote a post on Hate crimes and received surprising emails criticizing me for defending the idea. Hat continues to grow in troubled times of economic and social chaos.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:08 pmOhg.
http://thefiresidepost.com/2007/11/09/hate-crimes-revisiting-the-jena-6/
US-Iran: Raid on nuclear fuel market
This is a must read for all your interlects it explain everything thats going on , read from beginning to end The biggest Truth of US and Iran problems are the future Nuclear markets
http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=551761
Comment by Bush Cover Ups — November 20, 2007 @ 9:22 am
Very interesting article, and it makes sense of why the U.S. and the other U.N. Security Council members are so adamant about Iran giving up the fuel cycle, even though it is ALLOWABLE under the terms of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty. That treaty also aimed for nuclear states to divest themselves of their nuclear weapons. Happened yet? Hardly. Every signatory is in violation of that treaty right now.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:51 pmExcuse me, but he has just as much right to point out the uselessness of responding to trolls as you to do clutter up every thread responding to trolls. Who appointed you god? Personally I’m glad that he reminds us of how useless it is to respond to trolls. It helps me not slip into a “whack a troll modeâ€. But if you want your right to play with trolls, then you need to allow others right to protest your playing with trolls.
Comment by bilbobaggins — November 20, 2007 @ 9:49 am
Bilobaggins – I find the great majority of your comments very on-target and helpful. This one, however, I disagree with. Hyterra is not engaging in the debate on this string (or on some other previous ones either), but just doing a “troll patrol.” Not everyone that disagrees with either the way the string is presented on TP or our comments in response is a “troll.” Tolerance of diversity of opinion and a willingness to debate those differences is one of the hallmarks of a liberal or progressive. Automatically shutting people out because of disagreement is the opposite. There’s another regular poster who likes to attack other progressives, if they don’t agree completely with what he/she says.
I’ve never agreed completely with one thing Minotaur has posted, but I do find he brings “food for thought” to the table sometimes. This is comparison with some of the other real trolls we’ve had, like “Mr. P.”
November 20th, 2007 at 3:12 pmBy every metric, the surge has failed. This pie-in-the-sky hope is the same that’s been trotted out for the last four years, with the Iraqi leadership still unable to govern. Corruption is endemic/
**********************************************************
1) No, the metric has changed according to those in our government who kept moving the goalposts every time success became apparent. First it had to be political success, when that started to take shape even a bit it became security. Now that security is rapidly improving the aim is back to instant American-style democracy.
2) We have corruption in our own government across the board with over 200 years of practice behind us; the Iraqis are new to this game. 3) It sounds as if you just want to write them off and get out.
Comment by Minotaur — November 20, 2007 @ 10:07 am
I agree with #1 and partially with the #2 statement. However, since civilization in the Middle Eastern countries is far older than either the U.S. (or Europe for that matter) corruption is not something that they are “new too.) The #3 statement needs clarification. I assume you mean the Iraqi government. It could, however, mean writing off the current U.S. government. (The “object” of the last sentence is not clear). My own opinion is that they are both inefficient, incompetent and people are dying because of them, unnecessarily.
November 20th, 2007 at 3:31 pmWay to apple pick the article, Exley. If you’re going to post something, post the whole link. I was also heartened to hear about improvements in Baghdad, because we have brought hell to this country with our invasion. I would like to see these “good news” stories exist for every region and every person in Iraq. But as has been pointed out earlier (and even by McCain at one point), it is a “whack a mole” strategy. And other news stories have indicated that this success has also been credited to Al-Sadr calling his dogs off, and Iranian assistance (controlling their borders and so on) by the Iraqi government. Peace is possible for this country, and the region, but not as long as the U.S. continues to try to control it for the purposes of controlling and protecting oil production and transportion in the region. The best argument ever for energy independence.
“But the depth and sustainability of the changes remain open to question.
By one revealing measure of security — whether people who fled their home have returned — the gains are still limited. About 20,000 Iraqis have gone back to their Baghdad homes, a fraction of the more than 4 million who fled nationwide, and the 1.4 million people in Baghdad who are still internally displaced, according to a recent Iraqi Red Crescent Society survey. ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/world/middleeast/20surge.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
Read the whole article.
November 20th, 2007 at 3:54 pmDick Cheney told us years ago when he was selling the wisdom of the first President Bush about the cost of going into Iraq that the loss of American lives was clearly not worth it, what has changed, other than of course the opportunity for his friends to cash in?
What was Rumsfeld prediction of the cost of the war, and that it would be paid for by oil profits, yeah good call you pathetic old man.
Sell crazy somewhere else.
Comment by rocks911 — November 20, 2007 @ 10:53 am
rocks911 – Cheney became CEO of Halliburton. Mucho money (and he still has stock options and deferred salary); the prediction about Iraq being able to pay for anything with their oil was for reconstruction, and that was Wolfowitz. Rummy said we’d only be there no more than 6 months, with a very lean military, and that “freedom is messy” when the insurgency erupted. So a recap: greed, rationale driven by ideology, and plain stupidity. But the incredible stupidity was Bush being reelected in 2004 when so much of this B.S. was already known.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:06 pmEverybody agrees that things are much better.
Comment by Exley — November 20, 2007 @ 11:10 am
Once again with the “cherry picking.” Post the whole article, not just the parts you like.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7089168.stm
November 20th, 2007 at 4:12 pmThe skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.
Comment by Exley — November 20, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Again, horrific story. But post your G-D links to these stories!
November 20th, 2007 at 4:16 pm“Everybody agrees that things are much better.”
Comment by Exley
A simplistic version of what’s really happening – but then what else is Exley good for?
November 20th, 2007 at 8:40 pmIs it jis me , ‘er all those pictured coverin’ their privates ’cause the preznit is aspeakin? Threatenin’, huh?
November 20th, 2007 at 8:58 pm>believed to be Kurds killed during the repression of the 1980s.
The irony that reagan and rumsfeld were an accessory to these kurds murder escapes you. Please explain why the logic that saddam was the lesser of two evils no longer applies to day?
> Everybody agrees that things are much better.
where the political progress the surge was supposed to buy time for?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:28 pmand do you approve of us making millionaires out of sunni chieftans who were formerely responsible for attacks against us?
> working creatively with the locals,
“working creatively”..thats the best euphemism ive heard for mass bribery.
and im tired of your various incarnations spouting this “you cant expect iraq to be a perfect jeffersonian democracy” garbage..EVERY indicator is that iraq will not remain a democracy, imperfect or not, and will instead transform into an inslamic theocracy…you DO realize that democracy can transform into some other form of government, right? you DO realize that the spirit of cooperation necessary for democracy to work shows absolutely no signs of taking hold, right?
Iran had a democractically elected government before we overthrew them and installed the Shah. Palestine has a democractically elected government. How far along the path to your allegedly inevitable “jeffersonian democracy” are they?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:30 pmexlexlia, can we infer from your continued silence on this matter in multiple threads that you approve of the united states military making payments to sunni chieftans who have formerly allied themselves with and provided material support to al-queda in iraq?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:38 pm