John Ashcroft: I’m Willing To Be Waterboarded
John Ashcroft: I’m Willing To Be Waterboarded
Last night, former Attorney General John Ashcroft delivered an address on national security at the University of Colorado. The event was marked by heated protests. About 20 student protesters wearing “shirts with ’shame’ written on the backs and wearing American flags over their faces, welcomed Ashcroft to the stage by standing up and turning their backs to him.”
During the speech, Ashcroft caused an uproar when he declared Guantanamo Bay was a “good place” for detainees. In addition, he defended the torture tactic of waterboarding:
Ashcroft also responded to questions from the audience. The first question came from a woman who asked if Ashcroft would be willing to be subjected to waterboarding.
“The things that I can survive, if it were necessary to do them to me, I would do,” he said.
Ashcroft apparently believes that torture should be allowed as long as it doesn’t kill him.
Reps. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) and William Delahunt (D-MA) have introduced the “American Anti-Torture Act of 2007” to make clear no U.S. government agency feels it can apply the Ashcroft standard while interrogating detainees. They write:
Waterboarding is not “simulated drowning.” It is drowning. It involves restraining a detainee — usually by strapping him or her to a board — with the head placed lower than the feet. The face or mouth is often covered or stuffed with rags and water is poured over the face to force inhalation. The victim’s lungs fill with water until the procedure is stopped or the victim dies. Waterboarding has been considered torture — even by our own government — until recently. Indeed, we prosecuted Japanese officers for subjecting prisoners to waterboarding in World War II.
Jessica Evans, a student who protested during Ashcroft’s speech, “said the angry outbursts from the audience was evidence that the Bush administration did not give enough voice to the concerns of the public.” Indeed, as John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzales go around the country defending torture, they are being forced to confront the public disapproval that they did not heed while in office.
UPDATE: FDL’s Blue Texan recalls that Instapundit’s Glenn Reynolds also recently said he’d be “happy” to be waterboarded and suggested Michael Mukasey do the same.
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Yea, so what?
If he was willing to be sodomized, that doesn’t prove that it’s “good for the gander”.
IDIOT.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:25 amWhere does the line start for waterboarding Ashcroft?? I want dibs!
November 28th, 2007 at 10:29 amSo, when is the demonstration to take place? I want to hear what he thinks AFTER he’s been waterboarded. Let’s get the whole thing up on Youtube.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:30 amLet the Eagle Soak.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:32 amYes indeed – I think he should be waterboarded. Bush, Cheney and Gonzales should be invited for this too…
November 28th, 2007 at 10:33 amI would love to be there when Ashcroft crys for mercy. The man has needed taken down a peg or 2 for the last 10 yrs. He had better pray Bush pardons him before he leaves office or he will end up paying for his crimes sooner or later.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:33 amHas someone explained to Ashcroft that waterboarding doesn’t involve a beach and a styrofoam board and talking with a California accent? It’s possible that he’s a little confused.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:33 amI think the waterboarding of Ashcroft makes for a great pay-per-view opportunity. So who gets the broadcast rights?
Seriously, I think it would be a good idea for these people who claim that waterboarding isn’t torture — that it’s just some kind of harmless water sport — to experience the procedure for themselves. Even under tightly controlled conditions, even though they are assured ahead of time they aren’t going to die, they should get enough of the experience to have some idea what it’s like.
Failing that, they should at least talk to people who have been waterboarded.
Without having done either of these things, there is no credibility.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:34 amBig deal – the whole psychological aspect that would come along with a fear of actually drowning cannot be as acute if you are just doing a “demo.” That being said, let’s dunk this clown and all his buddies on the Hill who approve of this type of thing.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:35 amGUILTY of aid and abetting a crime against humanity
November 28th, 2007 at 10:36 amGosh golly, I’d sure like to hear any comments from Jim Comey & Jack Goldsmith on the Ashcroft they described during the infamous hospital smackdown re: his desire to try out waterboarding. Real interesting, that might be…
November 28th, 2007 at 10:40 amTweedster @ 9,
Yes, but perhaps the psychological aspect could be re-introduced if the procedure were carried out by someone Ashcroft fears, say Gloria Steinem?
November 28th, 2007 at 10:42 amIt would be interesting to see what secrets about the Bush administration he would give up under torture.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:43 amI’m all for it: let’s waterboard the bastard.
Where do I sign up to assist…?
November 28th, 2007 at 10:46 amExcellent snark, Menehune! Well done!
November 28th, 2007 at 10:48 amI think O. Bigfoot should try both, just to be certain.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:50 amHold on If hes willing then I volunteer to waterboard him
anybody got his address and phone number,
November 28th, 2007 at 10:56 amSo the real question is: if Ashcroft does agree to be waterboarded in a live television event, will Gonzo and Andy Card burst in when he’s incapacitated on the drowning table to get him to approve unconstitutional wiretaps?
You know, for old times sake…
November 28th, 2007 at 10:56 amI’d take a waterboarding over a beheading any day.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
On one hand, you get a lung full, the other, your IQ actually improves.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:57 amI’d take a waterboarding over a beheading any day.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 am
I’d take a theft over a murder any day. THAT DOES NOT MAKE EITHER ONE ACCEPTABLE!!
Can we please have some trolls with smaller feet and bigger brains?
November 28th, 2007 at 10:59 amGood for Ashcroft. He stood up for the belief of most Americans: That waterboarding is not torture and is a necessary tactic utilized only a very few times on the enemy to gain information that saved American lives. Bravo!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 am
Which American lives? I thought all this information was classified. How do most Americans know that waterboarding has saved American lives? Are you suggesting that most Americans have been leaked classified information from the CIA?
November 28th, 2007 at 10:59 amOutstanding, let’s turn him over to the taliban and see how it turns out. It wouldn’t be the same as under US control with mommy holding his hand.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:59 amBigfoot,
How does our version of waterboarding differ from what the Japanese practiced? You know, the practice WE defined as torturous and as a war crime?
Also, please enlighten us as to what crucial information waterboarding has produced that has saved American lives? Considered the debate over the practice, there should be many examples of its success for its supporters to point towards in the face of the opposition of torture (which does include waterboarding) by the MAJORITY of Americans.
Thanks!
November 28th, 2007 at 10:59 amThis just in…
At tonight’s Republican Youtube debate, each of them will be waterboarded prior to being allowed to speak.
Q&A sessions following this event are expected to mainly address if their stand on torture has changed at all in the last few minutes…
November 28th, 2007 at 11:00 am“Progressives†wish death upon our own people.
I know who my enemies are.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:58 am
November 28th, 2007 at 11:00 amNot true. We don’t wish death upon our own people. We just don’t consider fascists like yourself “our own people.”
If, heaven forbid, a demonstration of waterboarding, starring Ashcroft, was arranged — and he DIED — would that take some impetus from the sails of the torture advocates?
Ashcroft was in intensive care just a few years ago. He might not only learn that waterboarding is orders of magnitude worse than he imagined, but he might learn that he over-estimated the capacity of his aging body to endure it.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:01 amMay I do it?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:02 amHe stood up for the belief of most Americans:
“Most Americans”???? Sorry… unprovable contention.
That waterboarding is not torture and is a necessary tactic utilized only a very few times on the enemy to gain information that saved American lives. Bravo!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 am
So you like keeping company w/ the Inquisition, the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese, and the Khmer Rouge. Not surprising.
BTW, so nice of you to get all decked out fer the holidays, li’l Footie, wearing yer Jingle Ballsâ„¢ ‘n all. I see you saved up your can and bottle money and bought yerself a new codpiece too. From the size, I’d say you splurged and bought yerself The Limbaughâ„¢!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:02 amSeems to be way too many knuckledraggers posting here.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:03 amI know who my enemies are.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:58 am
No you don’t Bigfoot! You support those who mock our Constitution and thumb their noses at international law and the rules of war. You condone actions that appall U.S. citizens when carried out against our troops and effectively lower us to the savagery of military enemies. You emulate and adore the enemies of this country – external and internal alike.
Begone troll!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:04 amConservatives see enemies everywhere. Progressives merely wish to hear opinions which are based upon facts or personal experience.
I do not particularly wish death upon fictional characters.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:05 amWell, well, well. Another big talkin’ Republican pussy.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:06 amMr. Ashcroft, are you going to sing about Craig & Lott?
I hear Mr. Lott will soon be singing a new tune.
Maybe you can waterboard Lott’s young male escort before he sings?
You can find them both in the public RR around Noon today.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:07 amI do not particularly wish death upon fictional characters.
Comment by Peter C — November 28, 2007 @ 11:05 am
Remember the outrage from righties when Dumbledore turned out to be gay?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:08 amOutstanding, let’s turn him over to the taliban and see how it turns out. It wouldn’t be the same as under US control with mommy holding his hand.
Comment by racom — November 28, 2007 @ 10:59 am
Precisely.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:08 amI can’t believe how casually/hypocritically/dishonestly/destructively immoral American Republican and or Democratic politicians have become in endorsing the action of holding someone under water to terrify them into answering questions. Especially in light of the fact that so many studys have determined that torture produces unreliable answers. If Ashcroft is willing to be deprived of oxygen, perhaps he should also be deprived of food and water and sleep for 72 hours and let us know if he felt tortured.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:09 amConservatives are so sweet aren’t they? Defending torture now. So compassionate!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:11 amAshcroft sez: “The things that I can survive, if it were necessary to do them to me, I would do.”
This is precisely thje type of thought process of a person being tortured and, consequently, out of their mouths spew any words they think will help them end the torture, regardless of the veracity. Torturing, including waterboarding, is wothless as well as immoral.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:13 amI say we take him up on it in order to disprove the efficacy of water-boarding. The bet is that we can get him to denounce God, Country and Family within 2 minutes….
November 28th, 2007 at 11:13 amTo give the man his due, standing up to Gonzales, when he was in intensive care, was an admirable moment.
Similarly, Colonel Morris Davis, the former chief Prosecutor at the Guantanamo show trials really surprised me. I thought he was a man totally without principles, because he seemed prepared to lie about Khadr.
But he stood up to Brigadier General Thomas Hartmann, someone he thought was ordering him to take actions he considered unprincipled. So, I guess he had some principles, after all.
(Colonel Davis’s public criticism of Hartmann was that (1) he was meddling in the conduct of the prosecution, when, as “legal advisor”, to the “convening authority”, he was only authorized to play an oversight role. And he was supposed to be impartial, provide this impartial oversight to both the Prosecution and the Defense. (2) Davis wanted to preserve some shreds of legitimacy for the USA by having the first trials not rely on evidence elicited under torture, and not rely on evidence that was classified, and thus withheld from the captives, and the public. Hartmann, apparently, was in a rush to get convictions before Bush’s term expires, and thus was pushing for the prosecutions of captives who would face more serious charges, even though those trials would have to be held in secret, and rely on confessions induced by torture.
Cheers!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:15 amOn second thought, this is a GREAT IDEA! Every Representative and or Senator must first personally experience waterboarding in order to vote for allowing it. If after being waterboarded, he or she still wants to vote for it, at least they’ll know what they voted to do to others. How many would vote for waterboarding if they had to be waterboarded first in order to do so?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:15 ampeople who believe that waterboarding under any circumstances is OK make me sick.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:16 amGood for Ashcroft. He stood up for the belief of most Americans: That waterboarding is not torture and is a necessary tactic utilized only a very few times on the enemy to gain information that saved American lives. Bravo!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 am
I’ve been waiting for Bigfoot to prove his contention that “most Americans” do not believe that waterboarding is torture. Or any evidence at all that it isn’t, for that matter, given the historical record.
But that would be far too much to expect: data, facts, anything but bloviating.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:18 amI say we take him up on it in order to disprove the efficacy of water-boarding. The bet is that we can get him to denounce God, Country and Family within 2 minutes….
Comment by SpeakupNation — November 28, 2007 @ 11:13 am
Actually, this gives me an idea. FOX is planning this new “reality” show in which people are privately asked personal questions with a polygraph operating and then are reasked the questions publically for points. How about we hook up Ashcroft to a polygraph and ask him a bunch of questions then reask those questions while he’s being waterboarded.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:19 am#16 – “That waterboarding is not torture and is a necessary tactic utilized only a very few times on the enemy to gain information that saved American lives.” Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 am
Interesting that you have no proof of this.
Much like there was no proof of WMD’s, but that hasn’t stopped one single neo-con lemming from yelling their support of the war for oil.
Proof is only asked for when libs smash the lies of neo-cons. Wonder why that is?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:21 amProof abounds. That you choose to ignore it is your problem, not mine.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 11:23 am
Put up or shut up.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:23 amHe’s willing to be waterboarded, but can’t bear to see a bare breasted statue. Another looney who deserves to be ignored.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:25 amI bet if we water board him enough, we can get him to admit that he likes looking at statues of bare breasted women.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:27 amTo Mary, just thank God that they are bible believing, Godly Christian conservative minded folk. Other wise they could be real nasty, you know, using torture, immoral war mongers, toe tapping perverts and the like.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:27 amjb
Excellent!
Maybe if Ashcroft was waterboarded he would admit to having had sex with that statue. ‘Course, that might have been true.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:28 amOr maybe of men in public restrooms.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:28 am“waterboarding worksâ€.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 11:32 am
Just ask Tojo.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:34 amComment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 am
“Good for Ashcroft. He stood up for the belief of most Americans: That waterboarding is not torture…”
– You are wrong if you believe that most Americans don’t consider waterboarding torture. According to a recent CNN poll, 69% of Americans consider it torture. Only 29% do not consider it torture, and 2% are unsure. http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm
“…and is a necessary tactic utilized only a very few times on the enemy…”
– and you know about the frequency of waterboarding…how? Got a link?
“…to gain information that saved American lives. Bravo!”
– ditto above comment — how do you know about the value of information gained from this procedure? Even though conservative writer Vasko Kohlmayer claimed that valuable information is gained “every time it has been tried,” most others claim that information gained this way is generally useless.
“I’d take a waterboarding over a beheading any day.”
November 28th, 2007 at 11:35 am– And why are you making this comparison? A beheading has absolutely nothing to do with waterboarding. One has to do with an interrogation situation and the other has to do with a hostage situation. The righties always like to throw in “beheading” as some kind of bizarre debate point to justify “we can torture them because they behead us!” But it’s really just a distracting strawman.
I am so very sick of all the nasty, stupid, greedy little bullies with huge egos and tiny penises currently running this country…
…And trolling this website.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:36 amAs the architect of waterboarding legal framework, should former Attorney General John Ashcroft be tried for crimes against humanity?
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1116
.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:37 amSure. Simply Google “waterboarding worksâ€.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 11:32 am
Waterboarding is illegal, cases are already on the books where WE, the U.S. prosecuted people for waterboarding.
It figures that you fascists promote breaking US and International Law.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:38 amThere is a reason why they say war is hell, and believe me we are at war with those who would kill a progressive faster than a conservative. If the the so called progressives here had their way the US would have never one WWII as quickly as we did. No I dont like some of the very ugly things that are done in war, but that is why war is hell. So all you progressives can keep your hands clean and keep your greater than thou attitudes while true patriots do the dirty work.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:41 amBeheading is more reasonably compared to collateral damage. How would you rather die, by beheading or just as an accidental consequence. I suppose that once dead it really doesn’t matter, but there is some consolation if the very personal commitment and absolute intention that goes with beheading. Rather the the “oops” that is the eulogy of so many in modern warfare.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:41 amSure. Simply Google “waterboarding worksâ€.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 11:32 am
Beheading also works. What’s your point?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:42 amWaterboarding is drowning? Actual drowning? This will come as a shock to the recent lefty volunteer who was subjected to waterboarding and then jumped up to tell everyone how horrible it was.
You are supposed to be dead, dude.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:42 amSure. Simply Google “waterboarding worksâ€.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 11:32 am
Which will get you a number of blog entries from torture supporters. When you Google “waterboarding doesn’t work”, you can get just as many from the other side. All proving nothing.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:44 amThat’s cool! I’m willing to do the deed.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:44 amAs long as Ashcroft doesn’t die, it’s not torture? So after we waterboard the sanctimonious prick, how about if we put plastic wrap over his nose and mouth until he passes out. Scary, but no permanent damage done right?
Put him naked in a freezer until he pass out from hypothermia, then revive him. No permanent harm.
Then put him in an oven until he passes out from hyperthermia and again revive him.
Put him in a pressure chamber and then relieve the pressure suddenly so he gets air bubbles in the blood stream, I understand that is incredibly painful but if you don’t die, it’s not torture right?
Put large stones on his chest until he can’t breathe, wait until the last spark dies out on the EKG, and resucitate him. He’ll be fine.
Then let the entire prison A Block have their way with him. He’ll live, but those precious vocal cords may need time to heal.
It’s beyond me how Americans defend torture. I would say that anyone who defends torture is not American and should be shipped the fck out of the country
November 28th, 2007 at 11:45 amWaterboarding is torture. That is a proven point of law. Why are we not obeying the law?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:45 am#60
November 28th, 2007 at 11:45 amIf you break the speed limit you are breaking the law, if a cop breaks the speed limit in performance of his duties he is not breaking the law. As far as international law goes, I owe my alegiance to only the US.
Now the right thinks waterboarding is speeding, or do they think speeding is torture?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:48 amReason is being tortured to defend the practice of waterboarding.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:50 amAs far as international law goes, I owe my alegiance to only the US.
Comment by bob84108 — November 28, 2007 @ 11:45 am
Ever read the Constitution? Any Treaty the US is a signatory of becomes US Law, you ignorant idiot.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:50 am#70
November 28th, 2007 at 11:51 amNever said that. I said that if you are going to stop evil, in times of war, drastic action maybe necessar. My point was that is is not breaking the law.
Waterboarding is torture. That is a proven point of law. Why are we not obeying the law?
Leaving the lights on 24/7 is torture, screaming loudly in someone’s face is torture, threatening to ground them into dust is torture, promising a few hours of punishing exercise is torture.
We need to close the boot-camps, our recruits are being tortured and we are not obeying the law.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:51 am#72
November 28th, 2007 at 11:52 amYou are wrong again, no treaty says that water boarding in all cases is illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you think so, give me the treaty??
If you break the speed limit you are breaking the law, if a cop breaks the speed limit in performance of his duties he is not breaking the law. As far as international law goes, I owe my alegiance to only the US.
Comment by bob84108 — November 28, 2007 @ 11:45 am
This would be the same US that prosecuted Japanese war criminals, specifically citing waterboarding as torture in the list of crimes.
Did it stop being a crime magically in the intervening years?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:53 am#72
November 28th, 2007 at 11:54 amPS, you dont have to be insulting. I know it makes you feel so superior, but, lets back up your facts and then you can feel superior.
#76
November 28th, 2007 at 11:57 amThe sad part about all the progressive arguements here is that you all confuse the torture of uniformed troops with those of terrorists dressed in civilian clothes. The law provides for those not in uniform to be shot as spies. Maybe we should enforce that law.
Waterboarding is drowning? Actual drowning?
Comment by Age of Rifles — November 28, 2007 @ 11:42 am
I’m pretty sure that you were trying to make a point by snark, but just in case you are truly confused on the issue, let me clarify.
“Drowning” is to suffocate by water or another liquid, often to the point of death. When you start pouring water into somebody’s lungs, you are drowning them — even if you stop and revive them before they actually die.
It’s like suffocating somebody with a pillow. Or strangling somebody. If I were to do either of these to you to the point where you couldn’t breathe, but I stopped before you actually died, you would probably still say you were smothered, suffocated, or strangled.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:57 amWaterboarding is torture and has been considered so in this country for decades.
The author of that article: Evan Wallach, a judge at the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York, teaches the law of war as an adjunct professor at Brooklyn Law School and New York Law School.
So, hmmm, who has a better handle on the legality of waterboarding, a troll or a judge and a professor of law? A stumper.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:58 amLeaving the lights on 24/7 is torture, screaming loudly in someone’s face is torture, threatening to ground them into dust is torture, promising a few hours of punishing exercise is torture.
We need to close the boot-camps, our recruits are being tortured and we are not obeying the law.
Comment by Age of Rifles — November 28, 2007 @ 11:51 a
Hey dude, Words do have meaning. Leaving lights on is wasteful. creaming in someone’s face is rude. Threats are threats. Exercise is strenuous. Waterboarding is torture.
Bootcamps and recruits as well as the civilians in charge need to obey the laws of the US. Troops normally do as they are taught and told.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:59 amPersonally, I will believe the words of people who have actually experienced it, rather than the theory of know-nothing bleeding hearts who would rather see Americans die than use a non-lethal, non-torturous and well proven effective practice utilized to gain information that saves American lives.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 11:53 am
So, having read the testimony of people who actually experienced it (in the linked article above), you now will concede that waterboarding is torture, or will you persist in your utterly dishonest assertion that (a) it isn’t torture and (b) Americans on the whole agree with you (which was thoroughly discredited by another commenter)?
November 28th, 2007 at 12:00 pmYou are wrong again, no treaty says that water boarding in all cases is illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you think so, give me the treaty??
Comment by bob84108 — November 28, 2007 @ 11:52 am
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/torture/32634prs20071108.html
Want to try again to show your ignorance?
November 28th, 2007 at 12:00 pmWouldn’t it make more sense to actually, oh I don’t know, just hold the guy’s head under water?
Sorry but having your lungs fill with water means you are dead and presumably unable to answer any further questions. Unless you have John Edwards in the room to channel the deceased.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:01 pmHe’s willing to be waterboarded? Line starts behind me!
November 28th, 2007 at 12:01 pmRE:
“Let the Eagle Soak.”
Comment by Menehune
Thank you for this. I laughed my ass off.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:01 pm#81
November 28th, 2007 at 12:02 pmNice try but terrorists under the Genieva Convention are not coventional soldiers. What Japan did was illegal. You distort the facts by taking out of context. So now who is the troll– YOU
Never said that. I said that if you are going to stop evil, in times of war, drastic action maybe necessar. My point was that is is not breaking the law.
Comment by bob84108 — November 28, 2007 @ 11:51 am
Oh so now we are fighting evil. Well if the defeat of evil is our goal, then I expect that the first thing that needs to be done is to eliminate as much as possible form ourselves.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:03 pmTo Comment by Wayne — November 28, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Thanks for your facts, I will read them. I appreciate those who give facts not insults.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:04 pmWhy do you guys bother responding to O. Littledick? He’s a total ass.
Anyway back to the subject of the thread.
Can we all watch Ashcroft get waterboarded on the internet? YouTube would do fine.
Bush/Cheney
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
November 28th, 2007 at 12:05 pmPersonally, I will believe the words of people who have actually experienced it, rather than the theory of know-nothing bleeding hearts who would rather see Americans die than use a non-lethal, non-torturous and well proven effective practice utilized to gain information that saves American lives.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 11:53 am
I too prefer to believe the words of people who have actually experienced it. And they call it torture. You claim it’s not. Why? Do you have some testimony from people who have actually been waterboarded and claim it’s not torture?
As far as your claim that it’s a “proven effective practice” that “saves American lives” — the jury remains out on that one. John McCain — a man who actually knows a thing or two about torture — disagrees with you. And I’d hardly call him a “know-nothing bleeding heart.”
November 28th, 2007 at 12:06 pmIf it didn’t violate the rules for posting at this blog, I’d swear to god you’re a knucklehead.
And as International law goes, the US is bound by the treaties we sign. So, you’d better get calling your Congressional Rep. – you are bound by your stated adherence to US law to do so. Or are you a classic “Rule of Law (but not as it would apply to me or mine) Republican?
There is no lid on the box you are in. Feel free to explore the outside, once in a while.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:06 pmOur legacy of torture under the current administration will open the door for other countries to use torture. Whatever happened to our practice of fair treatment of enemy to encourage will surrender? Now they will fight to death to avoid torture.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:07 pmHey dude, Words do have meaning. Leaving lights on is wasteful. creaming in someone’s face is rude. Threats are threats. Exercise is strenuous. Waterboarding is torture.
Bootcamps and recruits as well as the civilians in charge need to obey the laws of the US. Troops normally do as they are taught and told.
Comment by jb — November 28, 2007 @ 11:59 am
United Nations Convention Against Torture:
Article 1
1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession
You have obviously never had a D.I. or C.C. screaming in your face and asking what the complete chain of command is from himself to the POTUS, and threatening dire results if you get it wrong.
Though I would expect that getting creamed in the face is an experience you endure on a daily basis.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:07 pm“Any American who would rather see Americans die than utilize effective means of coercive, non-torturous interrogation is not an American”
Anyone else see a logical problem with this statement? Imagine!
November 28th, 2007 at 12:11 pmOur legacy of torture under the current administration will open the door for other countries to use torture.
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
As if other countries don’t already use torture. Wait, those North Korean and Chinese gulags really are relaxation centers?
November 28th, 2007 at 12:12 pm“If you break the speed limit you are breaking the law, if a cop breaks the speed limit in performance of his duties he is not breaking the law. As far as international law goes, I owe my allegiance to only the US.â€
Only because the law address these situations. The Law does not ever address a situation that water boarding is not in fact a crime. It is one of the oldest forms of torture. Anyone who condones its use is Un-American and a threat to the principals that millions of Americans have fought and died to protect. Every soldier fighting in every war to protect this country and our way if life can not simply be ignored so that the psychotic, Bush derangement supporters can defend an administration that has been the most detrimental, incompetent administration in this counties history.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:13 pmWaterboarding, as practiced by the United States in it’s limited form, causes no physical damage, the effect is merely psychological. Thus, no torture.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Are you aware of the medical implications of drowning?
Obviously not.
Waterboarding is drowning the victim, you force their lungs to fill with water.
How you idiots can defend this just boggles the mind.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:13 pmI know who my enemies are.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
Fortunately for you, many people who would be your enemy are already dead.
Thomas Jefferson
November 28th, 2007 at 12:14 pmBenjamin Franklin
John Hancock
Samuel Adams
Thomas Paine
James Madison
George Washington
ect.
OT, just wanted to share this, and I apologize for going off topic. I thought some of you might enjoy this. Note: Some of the guys in the comments section are friends of mine and some of them are still in Iraq, so if you are going to post a comment, please be respectful. Thank you.
http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=150
November 28th, 2007 at 12:15 pmWaterboarding is drowning the victim, you force their lungs to fill with water.
That would make them dead and would therefore defeat the purpose of trying to gain information.
It is simulated drowning which is why the lib who recently got himself waterboarded lived to tell the tale of his experience.
SERE students are sometimes subjected to waterboarding; it is a proven historical fact that killing your military recruits has a negative effect on the recruits themselves.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:19 pm“The stones on the chest cause actual death from asphyxiation. Thus, torture.”
Water poured down the throat does not cause asphyxiation but stone on the chest does?
The simple truth is you defend water boarding not on logic or reason, but simply because you support those that did it and you hate the Americans that do not support this administration. Your politics have failed in every measurable way with this administration. You simply refuse to accept being wrong, logic and truth be damed as long as Rush and Hannity agree you refuse to see.
WHat about a crown of thorns it that accpetabe interigation? How about nailing the suspect to a tree? was that “Acceptable interigation technique” too?
November 28th, 2007 at 12:21 pmAs if other countries don’t already use torture. Wait, those North Korean and Chinese gulags really are relaxation centers?
Comment by Age of Rifles — November 28, 2007 @ 12:12 pm
#
And we all want to be just like North Korea? I thought we were supposed to be the moral compass for the world. I served in Iraq from 2003-2004. Professionals treat their captives with respect and dignity. It’s idiot E-3’s and new, naive privates that think torture of any kind is good. Now, when one of our own is captured, then released unharmed, we look even more like the bully. Our troops have it hard enough being stop-lossed and deployed for four and five tours without people like you making it even harder for them. Realize, people like you and Bigfoot here are the reason why the only Iraq war vet serving in congress is a democrat.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pmAny American who would rather see Americans die than utilize effective means of coercive, non-torturous interrogation is not an American, and should be shipped out of the country.
Next.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Any American who would advocate the use of torture, and justify it with scare tactics about “Americans dying” is a fascist.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pmAnd what are the consequences to the torturer?
French author Alec Mellor writing, in 1972, about French General Jacques Massu’s use of torture in Algeria quotes a former French career soldier, now a priest, Pere Gilbert, SJ, thus:
“But let us admit for a moment that it might be possible to justify torture for the ‘noble motives’: have they (those who justify torture) thought for one moment of the individual who does it, that is, of the man whom, whether he wishes or not, one is going to turn into a torturer? I have received enough confidences in Algeria and in France to know into what injuries, perhaps irreparable, torture can lead the human conscience. Many young men have ‘taken up the game’ and have thereby passed from mental health and stability into terrifying states of decay, from which some will probably never recover.”
November 28th, 2007 at 12:23 pmSERE students are sometimes subjected to waterboarding; it is a proven historical fact that killing your military recruits has a negative effect on the recruits themselves.
Comment by Age of Rifles — November 28, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
#
SERE was invented to enable our troops to understand how to survive in Soviet gulags. Look what we have become.
Jon Solz for President!
November 28th, 2007 at 12:24 pmYou are right Bigfoot, George W. had the British Major who supported Benedict Arnold shot with out even a trial. If he tried that today, all these progressives would be his enemy.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:24 pmSERE students are sometimes subjected to waterboarding; it is a proven historical fact that killing your military recruits has a negative effect on the recruits themselves.
Comment by Age of Rifles — November 28, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
I went through SERE. I know first hand, it is torture, and it is drowning.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:24 pmWeirdo
November 28th, 2007 at 12:25 pmHow A Near-Drowning Accident Affects the Lungs
November 28th, 2007 at 12:26 pmAnd we all want to be just like North Korea? I thought we were supposed to be the moral compass for the world.
The claim was made that our actions will open the door for other countries to use torture, as if they haven’t done so all along.
Try to quash the naive notion that this sort of thing doesn’t happen all the time and hasn’t happened repeatedly in the past, in every country on this poor globe.
National interests being what they are and always have been for all nations, such tactics will be utilized whether it is officially condemned or not, failure to realize that will simply make you mad when it occasionally comes to light.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:27 pmBut let us admit for a moment that it might be possible to justify torture for the ‘noble motives’: have they (those who justify torture) thought for one moment of the individual who does it, that is, of the man whom, whether he wishes or not, one is going to turn into a torturer?
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian — November 28, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
Yes they have – the whole reason why the subject made it to the national agenda was because the administration wanted to protect CIA agents and security contractors from lawsuits.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:28 pm“I went through SERE. I know first hand, it is torture, and it is drowning.”
They are not interested in facts and actuall truths. Those that condine toture will condone anything to support their cause. Reality is nothing but a roadblock that can be brushed aside by talk radio and fox news.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:28 pmCaptured terrorists need to be prosecuted for their crimes.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:29 pmNational interests being what they are and always have been for all nations, such tactics will be utilized whether it is officially condemned or not, failure to realize that will simply make you mad when it occasionally comes to light.
Comment by Age of Rifles — November 28, 2007 @ 12:27 pm
Good point. If the Spanish Inquisition tortured people, why oh why can’t we?
November 28th, 2007 at 12:30 pmAny American who would rather see Americans die than utilize effective means of coercive, non-torturous interrogation is not an American, and should be shipped out of the country.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
I have no problem utilizing effective means of coercive, non-torturous interrogation when necessary. I don’t know anybody who does have a problem with that. However, waterboarding does not fall into that category.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:30 pmIs anyone taking up a collection for this? Any idea how much it costs to rent a Blackwater guy for a short-term assignment?
November 28th, 2007 at 12:30 pm“You are wrong in so many ways…let’s see where to start….how about from the beginning of your statement through the end of your statement…”
Yes brilliant rebutal, full of fact and information and insite. You are a complet idiot, as evidenced by all your above posts.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:31 pmInformation obtained by torture is inadmissible in court.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:31 pmIf you are as tired of this argument as am I then let us clearly define the ‘waterboarding’ issue.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:32 pm1 If they do it, it is torture.
1 If we do it, it is not torture.
Now lets have a group hug.
Captured terrorists need to be prosecuted for their crimes.
Comment by jb — November 28, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
Agreed, as long as the prosecution includes a fair trial. Terrorist suspects should be treated no differently than suspects of any other crime.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:32 pmAgreed, as long as the prosecution includes a fair trial. Terrorist suspects should be treated no differently than suspects of any other crime.
Comment by toasterhead — November 28, 2007 @ 12:32 p
This administration has trouble obeying the law, let alone enforcing the law.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:35 pmOf course, me guess that he said that knowing that it wouldn’t happen. So how do we take him up on his offer ?
Of course, I’m from the Great state of Missouri – even as conservative as it is, and even as Neocon-cloned the governor is, when MO had the choice of electrinc Ashcroft or a dead man, MO had the common sense to elect the stiff.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:36 pmProfessionals treat their captives with dignity and respect. That is who we are. That is what we believe in. We are the United States of America, and that is what we have fought for. A soldier who abuses or mishandles a captive is a danger to his unit and his chain of command. I fought in Iraq. My father fought in Vietnam. My grandfather fought in World War II. This is who we are. We are not North Korea, the Nazis of Germany, or the USSR. Those are the ideals of the enemy. Third world dictators and petty pathetic strongmen believe in torture. America is above that.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:37 pmI wonder how it would work out for those claiming that this is not torture to undergo waterboarding until they “confess” that it’s torture. Then if they claim their statement untrue, and that they made it just to make the waterboarding stop… well, bingo.
Of course, to get the whole “feel”, the extreme temperatures, sleep deprivation, stress positions and beatings should be thrown into the mix as well.
Remember when doing this kind of thing was bad? Remember when one puzzled and agonized over how one could possibly commit such an appalling act against another living being?
Now we know.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:39 pmProfessionals treat their captives with dignity and respect. That is who we are. That is what we believe in. We are the United States of America, and that is what we have fought for. A soldier who abuses or mishandles a captive is a danger to his unit and his chain of command.
Comment by Chris L — November 28, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
Beautifully said. Thank you.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:45 pm“I know who my enemies are.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
Fortunately for you, many people who would be your enemy are already dead.
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
John Hancock
Samuel Adams
Thomas Paine
James Madison
George Washington
ect.
Comment by shoeless — November 28, 2007 @ 12:14 pmâ€
It would appear you need to read a little bit of history, shoeless. The practices and procedures endorsed during wartime by the folks on your list would be considered barbaric by today’s standards. Perhaps we need to learn a smidge from them.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
Sorry torture boy. You don’t get to make up your own history. It’s not nice to lie about our founding fathers, just to defend your current inhuman leaders.
America’s Anti-Torture Tradition
November 28th, 2007 at 12:46 pmWell yah see Johnny… There really aren’t any guarantees in life now are there?
Promise you you won’t die while I force water down your throat?
That would be a lie Johnny and you KNOW that!
November 28th, 2007 at 12:47 pmAmerica’s Anti-Torture Tradition
Comment by shoeless
Yes, it is amazing just how ignorant and clueless O.LittleDick truly is. Even when you point out just how stupid he is, he will just ignore it and keep believing the Fascist Repukian Propaganda no matter what proof you have against the total crap that little subhuman neanderturd posts.
Bush/Cheney
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
November 28th, 2007 at 12:58 pmDear Loyal Bushie,
Because of the LIBERAL MEDIA, the Republican Party lags far behind the Democrats in fund raising for the 2008 elections. On December 31, a great American John Ashcroft, the man with the golden pipes I might add, is going to be “waterboarded” on Pay Per View. He will prove that this “enhanced technique” is absolutely not “torture“.
All profits will be split between Republican Party and the various legal defense funds set up for the many Loyal Bushies just like you, who are targets of a JUDICIAL SYSTEM GONE WILD!
Contact your local cable company today and order:
Mr. Ashcroft Meets the Executioner
We hope you and yours will turn off WWF for an hour and join us in building a STRONGER AMERICA. As you well know this is an emergency because Democrats are WELCOMING TERRORIST TO KILL AMERICANS. Please help us help you protect the CHILDREN.
November 28th, 2007 at 12:58 pm“If the the so called progressives here had their way the US would have never one WWII as quickly as we did. ”
FDR was a conservative?
November 28th, 2007 at 1:05 pmPAY-PER-VIEW!!!!
November 28th, 2007 at 1:07 pmThen waterboard his a$$, and film it. It’ll be fun to see how such a big “man” crumbles and cries like a baby afterward.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:08 pmAmerica’s Anti-Torture Tradition
Comment by shoeless
Yes, it is amazing just how ignorant and clueless O.LittleDick truly is. Even when you point out just how stupid he is, he will just ignore it and keep believing the Fascist Repukian Propaganda no matter what proof you have against the total crap that little subhuman neanderturd posts.
Bush/Cheney
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
Comment by Buckie Boy
Yes, and what is truly disturbing is the revelation that sick Bushbots, like O. Bigmouth are willing to make up heinous lies about our founding fathers in their vain attempts to defend the evil practices of their dark lords.
What happened to these people to make them hate America so much?
November 28th, 2007 at 1:10 pmChris L., thanks for your service to our Country and your insight and comments on previous posts.
Us old ‘Nam Vets still have a lot to say, but somehow your words are better attached to present day dilemmas than my memories of 40 years ago.
A soldier is a precious commodity and valuable human life.
For those of you who chose not to or were unable to serve, please recognize that every time you assume you know what it’s like to be in combat, you’re wrong. Every time.
No one can project, simulate, or pretend to know what live combat feels like. For those of you who disagree with our opinions, that’s fine.
That’s why we fought for your freedoms…you’re welcome.
But don’t ever. EVER. think you can ‘know how we feel’. You can’t. If you really want to, join up.
/off soapbox
November 28th, 2007 at 1:10 pmThis coming from a man who couldn’t handle looking at a statue’s naked boob.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm
November 28th, 2007 at 1:16 pmThis coming from a man who couldn’t handle looking at a statue’s naked boob.
Comment by mary
For Ashcroft, that was torture.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:19 pmBob writes:
Bob, the Geneva Conventions are online. You can read them yourself. Articles 3, 4 and 5 of the Third Geneva Convention is the pertinent one here. It says captors have to treat ALL captives as if they were legitimate POW, even those someone is sure is a war criminal, until a “competent tribunal” determines they are not legitimate POWs.
NONE, count ‘em NONE of the captives have had a competent tribunal convened on their behalf.
I’ve read the transcripts, as you, I suspect, have not. My guess is that perhaps a few dozen of the 775 Guantanamo captives would not have been protected from prosecution by the Geneva Conventions.
Shame on you for calling them all terrorists.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pmCalling what drill sergeants do to recruits “torture” is an insult to the thankless job that they do.
I know it’s been nearly 20 years since I was at Benning, but I have no recollection of any of my drill sergeants ever threatening me with death or physical torture (50 pushups may sound like torture, but it doesn’t permanently damage you physically). I was stressed, but never to the point where I thought my life was in danger.
Any drill who did put those under them into a situation where the threat of death was present would not be a drill sergeant for long.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pmI am ashamed to my very core that cruel and sadistic bastards who advocate the torture of another human being are allowed to call themselves “Americans.”
America has become a terrorist nation. Shame on us. Shame on all of us.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:27 pmP L E A S E !!!!!! CAN I WATCH!!?????
November 28th, 2007 at 1:28 pmOK, let him name the time and place; I’ll volunteer to perform the procedure…
SOMEBODY call him on his bluff!!
November 28th, 2007 at 1:29 pmFunny…I’m torn between offering to waterboard Ashcroft and doing my duty as a human being and throwing him and his fellow conspirator’s against my Constitution into prison. But I think I’ll stand by my principles and throw the rascals into a cell for the rest of their lives.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:30 pm“Any American who would rather see Americans die than utilize effective means of coercive, non-torturous interrogation is not an American, and should be shipped out of the country.”
- O. Bigfoot
1. If you shipped out all of the people who think that the US should be above waterboarding then the US would collapse. How much of an idiot are you?
2. The founders of this country declared ‘give me liberty, or give me death’. NOT ‘take away my liberty in exchange for safety’. How much of a coward are you?
3. The ONLY people who think that waterboarding ISN’T torture are the people who don’t know what it is. YOU know very well that waterboarding is torture and you are lying denying it. EVERYONE knows it.
Let’s be plain here. Unless the elections suspended or manipulated in some way, in which case you can expect this country to go into a second civil war, the Republicans have just spent 7 years ensuring that the sleeping giant that is the center and left of this country will not allow them to abuse this country for at least another 70 years. Count on that. You can blow hard all you want. But that’s all you are going to be able to do for the rest of your life as a Republican. Have fun. At least Democrats will ensure that you are always free to be a blow hard idiot. If that is what you choose to be.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:33 pm150 – Anton – HEAR, HEAR!!!!
November 28th, 2007 at 1:36 pmAschcroft did not actually say that he was willing to be water boarded. He said that he would survive it should it be necessary to do it to him. I have a feeling that he would not believe it to be necessary in his case. He did not say “Water boarding is not torture. Water board me to show that it is not.”
November 28th, 2007 at 1:40 pmI think that he certainly implied that he would be willing to though JMOHR.
Seems to me that it was his way of saying that waterboarding is not that big a deal.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:49 pmI’ve gotta say – love most of the comments here.
So, has anyone hear ever been waterboarded?
That said, to the dictionary-lacking – why would waterboarding be used to obtain information from people that would not give up said information unless under severe distress, if it was not torture?
November 28th, 2007 at 1:50 pmAshcroft later clarified his statement,
“OOOH! Waterboarding. I thought you said wakeboarding.”
November 28th, 2007 at 1:50 pmObviously that should be… has anyone HERE ever been waterboarded? You know, a little fun between friends…
November 28th, 2007 at 1:51 pmThese commenters who are defending ‘waterboarding’ on the premise that they are ‘patriots’ and defenders of the country’s ideals are liars and cowards that are only doing this at Karl Rove’s direction. Rove started this little ‘experiment’ after the 2006 elections, when he got a big surprise on the morning of the 8th of November. He just didn’t think the ‘internets’ were that big of a threat. But, having realized that he was mistaken (so much for his “genius”), he decided to get stupid little boys and girls from Regent University to volunteer to go onto liberal, progressive sites and counter all arguments of actual ‘patriots’. Regent U has gladly given them free credits towards their business major or political science degrees (?). So, they come on here and other progressive blogs and show their university inspired intellect. And, believe me, we are all really impressed!They are all in the distinguished company of Jeff Gannon, also known as Jeff Guckert, male prostitute hired by the Bush Administration (Karl Rove) to ask softball questions of President (?) Bush at his infrequent press conferences. (If you don’t believe me, just google ‘Jeff Gannon/Guckert). In fact, one of these trolls might just be Gannon/Guckert. So, Bigfoot (Bigmouth) or Bob84108 or shoeless could just possibly be that famous and proudly Republican, Gannon/Guckert. Come on, boys, fess up and take your rightful place in the annals of historical obscurity.
Oh, by the way, when the Democrats take over a ‘permanent’ majority, you will have to deny your diploma from Regent University, because you will NEVER get a job without Bush or Karl behind you (Hummmmm?).
So, TPers, just ignore these “paid political announcements” and feel good that you are not one of the stupid, intellectually inferior idiots that come here to obfuscate, rewrite history, praise the biggest fool ever known to inhabit the White House and just generally show America what it is like to attend a college without any credentials beyond the fact of loyalty to a criminal administration and a mindset that condones torture as a sign of fealty to a failed president that should not have been allowed into office in the first place. We have better things to do. We have a complete takeover of our government to accomplish. So, when these fools come on here and sputter their stupidity, just hit the “abuse” sign and soon these idiots will disappear forever, just like the ‘permanent Republican majority’.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:55 pmThere are two things being left out.
The first is that Ashcroft assumes that his “survival” would be guaranteed.
This is not the case in waterboarding. People are suffocated and drowned.
They DIE. What does Ashcroft think this is – a scary ride in an amusement park?
Secondly – this is being done to people who are SUSPECTS! They have not been convicted of anything. They are labeled “terrorist ’suspects’”. They have not been charged or given the chance to confront their accusers. This may have been OK for the Nazis and the WW2 Japanese, but America had previously held itself to a higher moral standard.
Fascism is a plague. Germany was a great democracy and citadel of culture in the early 20th century. Then the plague struck and it was transformed by greedy and ignorant little men into a fascist state. The people went along with it – some with conviction and some passively. That’s what we have now. Hopefully we can regain our consciences and our morality and adherence to standards expressed in the Constitution.
November 28th, 2007 at 1:58 pmActually, this gives me an idea. FOX is planning this new “reality†show in which people are privately asked personal questions with a polygraph operating and then are reasked the questions publically for points. How about we hook up Ashcroft to a polygraph and ask him a bunch of questions then reask those questions while he’s being waterboarded.
Perfect timing. With the writer’s strike it could really take off!
November 28th, 2007 at 2:02 pmWhy are we tolarating these criminal hoods, that have arrogantly taken over our country and s…. all over our constitution and rights, stealing our economy, resouces while laughing in our face.
November 28th, 2007 at 2:12 pmNo one in our government has the right to change our constitution and bill of Rights to they will take over control of our country, telling us we no longer have a say in the policies and actions which they wish to set in place.
Our forefathers stood up for their rights against a totalitarian government in order for us to gain our freedom and rights from Britain, but now it seems as if we have let our country slide back into a totalitarian government that is worst then the one they had to endure.
With the advance technilogy, wealth and power which our country has achieved by our system of democracy, freedom and respect for laws and other citizen’s and their rights and property, our Corporate government is using this wealth and power against us to have complete dominance of our country.
The very people which have gained the most wealth and power under our form of government, are now using this wealth and power to criminally and illegally destroy our democracy & freedom to set up their totalitarian from of governmemt and destroy the wishes and policies of the American citizens. I really believe Americans either believe it that this will not take place or have totally lost the will to fight for their democracy, freedom, rights and way of living.
Bush and his mob has scared the h… out of Americans with their constance threat of terrorist attacks by using 911 as a propaganda tool. At the same time waving the American flag to use patriotism to join in his systematical destruction of everything we hold dear, our democracy, freedom, rights, jobs, social programs, honor and most of all our military.
They have sucessfully split our nation into different group of citizens one of the first tools in dividing a county to gain power over it.
They have used they propaganda to divide races, religious group and people with different opinions on political & social policies.
They have destroyed our economy for the weatlh and control of their family, friends, oil companies and global corporations, private contractors and even the foreign nations take have given them support.
If the Congress thinks they can approve this criminal activity to change our law to gain control of our nation then they are “wrong” and the laws they are passing are “illegal and un-constitutional” and we should put an immediate stop it now.
American citizens are the makers of the laws of this nation and what gives these arrogant, corrupted, deceitful criminals, think they have the right to do any d… thing they please and tell us we do not have the intelligence to tell then what policies should be made or changed for our nation.
It seems like the democrats are satisfied with the illegal and corrupted election procedures Bush and his administration has set in place. They must agree for they have done nothing to stop him.
We now have foreign countries controlling out policies, while stealing our jobs and taking our land and resources. Whne are Americans going to get off the a…. and say enough is enough.
“Any American who would rather see Americans die than utilize effective means of coercive, non-torturous interrogation is not an American, and should be shipped out of the country.â€
- O. Bigfoot
This is still a majority rules country so, O Bigfoot stick in O bigmouth and be gone from the country that, in spite of bush, still has principles. Try Egypt, I hear they like your kind. You must have just hated it when the Shah of Iran was thrown out. He was another of your kind.
November 28th, 2007 at 2:12 pmJust one thing Talk is cheap.
November 28th, 2007 at 2:16 pmDo it to him ASAP, and don’t stop until he confesses that Bush should be impeached and provides the necessary evidence.
November 28th, 2007 at 2:26 pmTo arcticredriver
Thanks for your input, I will review it. I could be wrong, and I will check that out, but the captors they are refering to I think are solders, not non conbatant terrorists?? But thanks for your polite reply.
November 28th, 2007 at 2:41 pmAccording to a Gallup poll – Two other methods considered wrong by roughly 80% of the public involve physical torment. Eighty-two percent of Americans think “strapping prisoners to boards and forcing their heads underwater until they think they are drowning” is wrong, and 79% consider “forcing prisoners to remain naked and chained in uncomfortable positions in cold rooms for several hours” to be wrong. Less than 20% of Americans believe these practices are right for the government to use on those with information about terror plots.
So how is it that a majority of Americans support torture?
November 28th, 2007 at 2:46 pmTo the Comment by newpantaloons — November 28, 2007 @ 1:55 pm
November 28th, 2007 at 2:58 pmI know you believe you are doing the right thing, and I know you feel so good about yourself. Believe it or not I believe that the Bush Admin, is a failure too, and I dont support torture in general. The only real difference between you and I is that I do believe that a real threat exists and if it comes down to between my enemy and me, it will just have to be them. I dont believe in turning the other cheek. If you think that makes me bad, then we will never see eye to eye. I can promise you one thing though, your willingness to not do what it takes, will eventually cost us our freedom. Just one man’s opinion I am sure you do not agree with.
Bush and the republicans develope their own polls with the figures and persons they which to include (or exclude) in their reports.
November 28th, 2007 at 2:59 pmOnly one question, lets not talk then about Bush and the republicans lies, where and when have they ever told the “truth”, it is just not in their vocabulary.
They need the computer they use for their illegal data mining on Americans, to hold the data of the deceit, lies and criminal actions of Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Lott, Frist, Abramoff, etc, etc, well this republican list is too long to go on……
I have an honest question that I really would like someone to enlighten me on. If the Bush Adminstration is really breaking all these laws that everyone is talking about, how come Democratic Leader’s are not persuing legal recourse? Thanks for any help you can give me on this.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:02 pmBullshit. Someone needs to call his bluff.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:07 pmThank you, John, for your generous contribution to the National Joke Fund. Your gag — and we use the term advisedly — will help the millions of Americans who go to bed jokeless each night, trying to subsist on nothing but Jon Stewart re-runs during this terrible Writers’ Guild strike. We know we can always count on you and the rest of the George W. Bush Alumni Association who can’t be serious.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:17 pm#167 Bob
Because most of the Dems are bought and paid for as well. The entire system is beholden to the largest corporations. Ralph Nader discusses this very clearly.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:17 pmIf the Bush Adminstration is really breaking all these laws that everyone is talking about, how come Democratic Leader’s are not persuing legal recourse? Thanks for any help you can give me on this.
Comment by bob84108 — November 28, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
There are a number of reasons, depending upon whom you listen to:
1) “We issue subpoenas, but they are ignored”
2) “We send sternly worded letters urging compliance with our investigations, but they are ignored”
3) “We won’t impeach because we don’t have the votes in the Senate to convict”
4) Etc. Etc.
I suspect the real reason why our Democrats are acting like a bunch of wussies (with a couple of exceptions) is that they are counting on Bush, Cheney, and the rest of their merry band to remain in the popularity cellar so the Dems can clean up in 2008. The only problem with that strategy is that they, too, are losing appeal with the voters because of their inaction.
Either that, or Darth Cheney is blackmailing them all.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:17 pmWho believes that we now have freedom. Have we stopped teaching the meaning of word and the history of our nation.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:18 pmWhat do people think the revolutionary war was fought for.
Do you really believe it was for a group of elite and wealthy people to control our nation and it’s policies.
To invade our countries to steal their resources.
Freedom = the state or equality of being free; exemption or liberation from the control of some other person or some arbitrary power: liberty; independence.
Democracy = Treating persons of all classes in the same way;
a government in which the people hold the ruling power either directly or indirectly…..
Bush and this administration’s policies and action have not been the will of the people…..
Thanks everyone for your comments. Sometimes it is really confusing and I like to get everyones perspective.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:24 pmBob84018 – you ought to be ashamed of yourself, you craven coward.
You and those like you are WORSE than the terrorists – at least *they* are up front about their methods – you and cowards like you attempt to cloak the exact same methods in “patriotism.”
Disgusting.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:25 pmI can promise you one thing though, your willingness to not do what it takes, will eventually cost us our freedom. Just one man’s opinion I am sure you do not agree with.
Comment by bob84108 — November 28, 2007 @ 2:58 pm
Your promise is based on ignorance and fear, not on fact and history. All you will achieve with that mindset is the guaranteed torture of American soldiers when they are captured. what will cost us our freedom is YOUR inability to defend yur freedom from the very government that is calling for breaking national and international laws, the Bush govbernment. Nobody can take our freedom from us from the outside, only we can give it up to fascists like Bush and cowards like you. if you truly believe that Iraq or Iran is capable of invading and conquering the USA, then you are among the very stupidest people ever to show up here.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:25 pmbob84108, right now TWO former Bush Administration officials are ignoring congressional subpoenas and the Bush Justice Department is allowing them to do so. George Bush is in charge of the Justice Department. If falls under his branch of the government. He is the head honcho. The Big Kaunas, Top Dog. You know! The Boss!
Get it?
Democrats are pursuing legal recourse. George Bush is ignoring the law.
Elucidate yourself, bob84108!
November 28th, 2007 at 3:32 pmMary, Comment 152: I am sorry to parse words, but it does make a difference. Ashcroft is not doing what one of the Assistant AG’s actually did do to review the process, under go the method. Ashcroft is like many cowardly Republicans by insinuating that he would under go the procedure, if necessary. I am sorry. He did not say, when he was AG or now, that he felt water boarding was so innocuous that he would volunteer to under go it. It is a hell of a big difference.
O. Bigfoot should be ignored. He is a typical conservative fascist fool. His ignorance is manifest by claiming that these methods are not torture. I am sorry, but water boarding has been considered torture since the days of the Inquisition. Our own government prosecuted those who utilized the techniques for torture (our own US military personnel) or war crimes (those who were our enemies). But I am sure that Bigfoot has the usual education of a third grader with serious reading disabilities. Even the lead instructor for the SERE program that trains personnel to resist “coercive” interrogation techniques agrees that water boarding is torture.
Bigfoot believes that these “coercive” techniques are effective. However, we all know that these techniques were invented to force confessions from people regardless of guilt. McCain who was tortured (gave out false information and made some forced statements) has stated that the technique does not provide reliable information. Those who have actual interrogation experience in current wars have stated that the “coercive” techniques fail to provide accurate information. Those who were responsible for interrogating the highest value NAZI prisoners used “soft” techniques to break and gain information.
Bigfoot wants to torture not because it actually gains actionable intelligence, but because he is basically a coward. He fears the Muslim hordes that he believes are out against him. He knows that he is impotent and powerless against those fears. He can only feel like a man if he can punish his enemy. Of course, he could never do it personally, he must receive his boost of testosterone by having the military do it for him. We know that he has the same moral footing as the terrorists that we are attempting to defeat.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:40 pmWell, does Mr. Ashcroft want to be waterboarded until he sings, (we know how he loves to sing) or until he tells the truth about the crimes of the Bush administration? There is a little difference here, don’t you think?
November 28th, 2007 at 3:50 pmTo owlbear1
November 28th, 2007 at 4:15 pmWhat ever happened to seperation of powers?? I would think no branch of the government could ignore the law with out the other branches taking action. By the way why I do elucidate myself, but I also like to draw onbrilliant minds like yours when ever possible.
There is a reason why they say war is hell, and believe me we are at war with those who would kill a progressive faster than a conservative. If the the so called progressives here had their way the US would have never one WWII as quickly as we did. No I dont like some of the very ugly things that are done in war, but that is why war is hell. So all you progressives can keep your hands clean and keep your greater than thou attitudes while true patriots do the dirty work.
Comment by bob84108 — November 28, 2007 @ 11:41 am
oh really? progs can keep their hands clean? Like the chickenhawk leadership that never served?
November 28th, 2007 at 4:22 pmlike these?
http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html
#180
November 28th, 2007 at 4:33 pmI can only speak for myself, and I served.
The Dumbocraps will not stir up the water because they are as dirty, as complicit, as besmirched in every particular as the other wing of their party, the GOPukes.
When will you recognize that there is fundamentally NO DIFFERENCE between them?
Both earnestly bend every effort to the achievement of wholesale corporate hegemonic domination on the global scale, and the preservation of an elite oligarchic Corporate State at ome. They differ in NO particular as to those ends, and only slightly as to the means.
A million people surrounding the BuSHiteHouse with pitchforks, buckets of tar, torches, and bales of feathers might effect a change, because the fascists likely would be forced to resort to extreme violence to dissipate such a crown, or they’d be compelled to depart for their estates in Paraguay.
BTW, fwiw, i served: USAF, ‘64-’68
November 28th, 2007 at 5:00 pmYeah, I’m sure he’s more than ready to be butt-pyramided too, and to have an electric cattle prod shoved up his rear end while they’re at it.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:12 pmAshcroft would willingly submit to waterboarding. Unlike the many who have been waterboarded who did not agree to submit. Apples and Oranges Ashcroft. In your case, by agreeing to it, you remove the stigma of assault. Being waterboarded against one’s will, without agreeing to it, is a classic case of assault. A criminal act.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:36 pmWith the criminal data mining of our dictator and his war hawks, he would have no shame in sharing with the whole world the informantion he illegally received on the democrats.
Bush and the republicans do not need facts, they invent their own BS and facts, then give it to their corporate news media to run with.
The whole group of Bush’s & war hawks were to much of a chicken hawk to serve when they were called to serve, they were preparing for their own wealth to brother with serving their country.
Rush had a pimple on his a… , which doesn’t seems to be a problem while sitting in his chair calling soldier fighting in Iraq phony soldiers.
Cheney who sought and obtained five deferments to stay out of the military during the Vietnam War.
Check Rudy , Thomason and all the brave Republican chicken Hawks when it comes to sending others to do what they too chicken out of…
They are only patriotic when they are sending others to gain wealth and power for them and their friends.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:42 pm“If the the so called progressives here had their way the US would have never one WWII as quickly as we did.”
bob84108,
What the are you talking about? Both presidents during WWI and WWII were DEMOCRATS! Who do you think ended WWII by deciding to use nuclear bombs? A democrat.
History, bob84108, learn it, before you talk like you understand the world around you.
Here’s a free lesson. Talking tough and sending other people’s kids into war isn’t strength. Strength is having the intelligence, patience, respect, understanding and wisdom to know how to prevent or at least end war.
The Bible, the oft cited moral authority on which the Republicans stand:
Who’s better? A warrior or a patient man?
Proverbs 16:32 – Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city.
How do you deal with your enemies?
Proverbs 25:21 – If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
But don’t blame me for that advice, blame God.
Is there a time for War? Yes. In Defense.
November 28th, 2007 at 6:28 pmTo Comment by anton — November 28, 2007 @ 6:28 pm
November 28th, 2007 at 7:06 pmTrue, so true… they were Democrats, but before you attack me about my understanding of history, you should study a little yourself before you go around belittling others. It was a Democrat who fire bomed Dresden!!! Based on that and the way you present yourself, the Democrats today are not the same as those who had some guts during WWII So grow up before you put other people down, look for understanding instead of your own miopic point of view.
We’ll be down to get you in a taxi, John!
November 28th, 2007 at 7:58 pmI’d like to see Hillary perform the waterboarding of Ashcroft. Do you think John might have second thoughts about his surviving the procedure?
November 28th, 2007 at 8:24 pmIf he’s willing to do this, then it should be done by the book.
First, he will be renditioned by a third party. Let’s say, we get Venezuela to pull it off. He will be flown in a private jet, hooded, naked and in diapers to another country where we will be assured he won’t be tortured. Let’s say, we send him to Egypt. We will let them hold him, for let’s say, 12-18 months, before we need him for his waterboarding demonstration. But while we’re doing all of this, we mustn’t let his family know where he is or what happened. It will make it seem more realistic.
Second, we will then fly him once again, hooded, naked and in diapers, to another location for his demonstration. Let’s say this time we send him to a secret Polish prison. Now, let’s have their people perform the waterboarding. Oh, and they shouldn’t speak his language. This will confuse and disorient him even more, making the waterboarding seem even more realistic. In fact, before we let him do his waterboarding demonstration, we should keep him in stress positions without any light, for a month or two, to soften him up. And we need to make sure we play some loud music 24/7 to disorient him even more.
Now, we can let him do his waterboarding demonstration. Oh no, we just found out the person who has performed waterboarding many times successfully before has decided to take his vacation, so he’s going to let the new guy in the unit do his very first waterboarding on him…Jeez, I hope it goes well.
We just found out, the new guy did it pretty well, but he forgot to document it with videotape, so we’ll schedule another one in a few days, so everyone can see how well Ashcroft did in his waterboarding demonstration.
I can’t wait to see it.
November 28th, 2007 at 9:49 pmThe question shouldn’t be whether he’d survive waterboarding….it’s whether “it” would WORK!!! Would he sell out military plans? Would he sing like a bird? If he would ….then waterboard on!!!
November 28th, 2007 at 9:50 pmCheck out the video-flogging of former Attorney General John Ashcroft at CU Boulder on Tuesday night. Hear from the Colorado woman who actually asked Ashcroft that question. See what happened when she waited out back to take him up on his offer to be waterboarded.
In case you haven’t heard, a vflog is a political vlog (video-log) of a citizen verbally flogging an elected representative or public official. A vflog is the video version of a political blog.
http://www.vflog.com/
November 29th, 2007 at 2:03 amBringing the 1st Amendment into the 21st Century
If he’s willing to do this, then it should be done by the book.
Comment by manny
Were you talking about Ashcroft, O. Bigfoot, or both?
November 29th, 2007 at 10:49 amMissed opportunity.
Do not ask a tough guy if he is willing to take a bullet.
Ask if his wife is willing.
These are the issues our servicemen are dealing with. If we torture, our servicemen will be tortured.
This needs to be brought home to those that do not serve but ask our finest to serve them.
I’ve left a-side the oft:
What part of “internationally recognized crime against humanity” does he not understand?
November 29th, 2007 at 11:23 amPerhaps there are some members who were formerly with the military who might volunteer to waterboard this disgusting insult to the human race.
A co-worker who was in the military for eighteen years indicated that part of his training was to be waterboarded. He stated that it is so unpleasant that a person would eventually say anything to stop it.
Why not hold the event on national television until Ashcroft admits to raping infants, and once he does, then haul him off to jail.
Ashcroft would need to either stand by his torture-induced confession and spend the next few years in prison, and, as a child rapist, his time there would be, shall we say, “interesting” OR he would need to assume the stance (a wide one, to be sure), that he said what he did only to terminate the feeling of being drowned.
Should he choose the latter option, then he could be asked to explain why we should trust confessions obtained from suspected “terrists†by implementing such procedures.
This could be an extremely popular and lucrative pay-per-view event — so where is the MSM?
November 29th, 2007 at 12:11 pmI also am willing for Ashcrofts to be waterboarded.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:16 pmHere’s the video of the confrontation YOU MUST WATCH THIS!!!
PLEASE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-825912082256624261&hl=en-GB
ASHCROFT DID NOT KNOW THE VIDEO CAMERA WAS THERE AND SHOWS IS REAL SIDE..
November 29th, 2007 at 6:35 pmI’m willing to chip in for the cost of the equipment for Ashcroft to try it. I would pay the whole cost to see Tricky Dick Chaney get to enjoy it.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:23 pm