Well, then, insteading of throwing the question back at me, you should have no problem listing the myriad of influences of Christianity on our society.

Comment by RickS — November 29, 2007 @ 2:12 pm

Truth, justice, gratitude and beauty ( admiration for the Creator’s work ), love, sympathy, benevolence….
I’m not aware that anyone has proven that these characteristics result from evolution though that has been hypothesized. Without purpose none of these characteristics are useful or beneficial.

BTW, gratitude and beauty here would include science, and justice is something every person desires. There is no concept of justice without accountability to God – Who is able to perfectly judge.

Please don’t bother telling me that horrific things have been done in the name of Christianity. I’m keenly aware of this. When you go to the trouble of thinking of these horrific things, why don’t you ask yourself a question or two? Were these things done because the ones doing them believed that Christ Jesus was the Son of God or because they were ignorant and needed a “belief” tool with which to manipulate their victims or to maintain their power?

As to asking for a “…listing the myriad of influences…’, perhaps it would be more telling, and simpler, to consider a “take away.”

Would you really want a world without the influence of Christianity? What would you want to replace the influence of Christianity, and why would that replacement be better?

Do you think the U.S. would be the nation it is if there had not been for the influence of Christianity and the Bible?

What’s going to make the U.S. a better place than the influence of Christianity and the Bible?

A simple speculation here would be that Christianity has made life on earth as good as it can get. True, there is much room for improvement, but what’s going to drive that improvement if not Christianity?

Seems appropriate to me to say, “Merry Christmas! God’s Good News!”

ok — in your yard, i have no problem with that.

but why is it ok to waste energy to put up lights that have nothing to do with Christmas — and waste energy? how much energy are we wasting illuminating lights for “christmas?”

Comment by ko — November 30, 2007 @ 7:44 pm

Some on the extreme right are hateful just like many on the extreme left are here. Christians don’t demand that anyone celebrate Christmas, we just oppose attempts to remove all evidence of the religion of the majority of Americans. O’Reilly said it’s fine to put up representations of other religions. He just objected to the removal of anything the task force deemed Christian. After all, it was the task force that said that colored lights are too representative of Christmas, not O’Reilly.

I have no doubt that Jesus is displeased with many of the actions of people, both believers and non-believers.

I noticed that you only listed the good points of progressive values and omitted the most damaging negative. The removal of personal responsibilty for ones actions. Whatever trouble you get into or responsibility you fail to take care of, it’s not your fault, we’ll fix it for you, and we won’t admonish you if you do so repeatedly. If it feels good, do it, no questions asked. Someone else will be responsible for taking care of you and repairing the damage you cause. ;)

Telling someone “happy holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” is an attack on Christianity?

Somehow, I really don’t see how that compares to the Inquisition, 19th Century pogroms, Kristalnacht, and the Holocaust.

And they would still accept slavery, even knowing that it would be the root cause of massive devastation and hundreds of thousands of lives?
Or still label Native Americans as “savages” even though those groups would still face almost total annihilation?

What Christian would allow these to happen? And would they really think that making sure a Navity scene could stay in a public park was more important?

Comment by RickS — November 30, 2007 @ 9:15 am

Trying to replace Merry Christmas, which acknowledges Christ, with Happy Holidays, which doesn’t acknowledge Christ, is a subtle attack on Christianity. The holiday wouldn’t exist without Jesus, so you can see, I’m sure, how Christians would take offense at attempts to make that substitution.

That’s quite a connection you made there between Indians and Christmas displays? Would the founders have thought a Christmas display in 2007 is more important than the deaths of most of a group of people in a previous century? You’re really reaching now, bud. My comment regarding slavery and Indians was based upon the prevailing thought at the time. You asked if they could have forseen what would happen to those groups, would they have done things differently. Are you also assuming they have a modern idea of the worth of all people along with that foreknowledge? Remember, at that time, “savages” and “primitives” wern’t valued the same as white men. You have to consider the mindset if you want to predict their actions. Besides, with the lib view that the founders weren’t Christians, the whole discussion is useless for Christian bashing. ;)

The so called “religious right” is not religious at all. They preach hate. It is not a Christian value to thump on your chest, threaten people (like O’Liely) encourage hatred for other people, demand that everyone celebrate Christmas and everyone’s taxes be used to celebrate Christmas YOUR WAY and no other religious holiday, and say that you are doing this in the service of Christ. Christ would vomit if he saw what is passing itself off as “Christian” in the United States.

Telling someone “happy holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” is an attack on Christianity?

Somehow, I really don’t see how that compares to the Inquisition, 19th Century pogroms, Kristalnacht, and the Holocaust.

And they would still accept slavery, even knowing that it would be the root cause of massive devastation and hundreds of thousands of lives?
Or still label Native Americans as “savages” even though those groups would still face almost total annihilation?

What Christian would allow these to happen? And would they really think that making sure a Navity scene could stay in a public park was more important?

why not go all the way with your “War on Christmas?”
Ask yourself, what does adorning your homes with lights, evergreen trees, fake snowmen, reindeer, and Santas have to do with the birth of Baby Jesus?? How about giving each each other gifts? Why not call for a ban on such objects???

Comment by sc mom — November 29, 2007 @ 10:11 pm

The task force suggested removing colored lights because THEY thought it was too representative of Christmas decorations. O’Reilly was simply reacting to the idea that a Christian display is offensive in a Christian community. He never objected to displays of other religions, just the attack on the Christmas display. As for the giving of gifts, that is in honor of the greatest gift ever given. Cool how that works, eh? ;)

Would the founders have outlawed slavery had they forseen the Civil War? Possibly, but not necessarily since slavery was accepted at the time. The Indians? Again, hard to say, considering the mindset regarding the differences in the “civilized” and “uncivilized” peoples. It is easier to see that the founders wanted to protect religious liberty (the right to worship as one chooses, not the current lib view that they have the right to be protected from exposure to any trace of religion in any area of society) and would probably have included stronger language to that effect had they forseen the future attacks on Christianity. ;)

why not go all the way with your “War on Christmas?”
Ask yourself, what does adorning your homes with lights, evergreen trees, fake snowmen, reindeer, and Santas have to do with the birth of Baby Jesus?? How about giving each each other gifts? Why not call for a ban on such objects???

Well, you said John Adams would be offended by our present “moral decline”, so I was commenting on what I believe would be the reaction of our modern day wingnuts to what in their mind would be appeasement to a bunch of pirates off the Barbary Coast.

“That last question is a joke, right, bud? Or was it just intended to incite your fellow libs? I’ll defer to them to point out the pervasive Christian influence in all areas of our society. They do seem to enjoy it so. ;)”

Well, then, insteading of throwing the question back at me, you should have no problem listing the myriad of influences of Christianity on our society.

“But as to the issue of “Native Americans”, perhaps their ( the founding fathers’ ) view was a bit more practical and much less enlightened than your view.”

But had the fortune of foresight, and saw how the Native Americans were to be treated (a lot of Indians were killed without regard to sex or age), would they, as good Christians, tried to ensure their livelihood?

I brought this up, and the question of slavery, because upright left claimed that if John Adams had foresight of our “moral decay” (what is that, exactly?), he would had declared our nation a Christian nation, apparently to ensure its salvation.

If you are going to say “well, if only they saw how our nation was going to ruin because you can see nude photos on the Internet”, then can’t you say the same thing about slavery and Indians?

If the Founders, even those who were slave owners, were privy to the knowledge that a devastating civil war would result from slavery, would they still have allowed slavery to continue?

And if they saw how whole populations of indingenous peoples were to be brought to the point of extinction, would they have been so quick to label said groups “savages”?

What would Jesus do?

Comment by bitblt

The John Adams referred to is the same John Adams who signed the Alien and Sedition Act, which, among other things, made it illegal to criticize the President. He shut down many newspapers and jailed the editors, including the grandson of Benjamin Franklin. Until Bush came along, he was the worst president in U.S. history. The American people were so horrified by his totalitarianism that his Federalist party was thrown onto the scrapheap of history, never to be heard from again.

From

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2942

America, Christianity, and the Culture War (Part I)

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Original State Constitutions

If the Framers wanted more direct references to Christianity to be left up to the several states, we ought to expect to see the framers of the state constitutions reflecting that intention. And, indeed, they did. Once the Founders declared independence from England, each state commenced to hammer out their respective state constitutions, with the exception of Connecticut which chose to continue to operate under its founding charter until eventually formulating its own state constitution in 1818 (Horton, 1988). If one will take the time to examine the original state constitutions, one will be absolutely overwhelmed by the fact that those framers (many of whom were also involved in working on the federal Constitution), were intimately attached to the God of the Bible and deliberately reflected that attachment in their political pronouncements. The state constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, much of which is believed to be the product of John Adams, provides just one sample. In “Part the First,” the constitution reads:

Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.

Article III. As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily (Constitution of the Commonwealth…, emp. added).

In “Part the Second,” the constitution enumerated the civil officers of the state:

Article I. There shall be a supreme executive magistrate, who shall be styled, The Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts; and whose title shall be—His Excellency.

Article II. The governor shall be chosen [annually]; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless at the time of his election, he shall have been an inhabitant of this commonwealth for seven years next preceding; and unless he shall at the same time, be seised in his own right, of a freehold within the commonwealth of the value of one thousand pounds; and unless he shall declare
himself to be of the Christian religion (Constitution of the Commonwealth…, emp. added).

Further, the “Oath of Office” that was to be taken by anyone who wished to serve as “governor, lieutenant governor, councillor, senator or representative” began with the declaration: “I, A.B., do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth.”
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The John Adams referred to is the same John Adams who was the president who signed the Treaty of Tripoli mentioned above.

Excerpts from several state constitution preambles are include in this article and they are quite interesting.

I guess you forgot that America hasn’t always been the world power it is today. No big deal.

“And maybe if the writers of the Constitution foresaw slavery nearly destroying the country, they would have outlawed it from the start.

Or if they saw how whole parts of the Native American population would be driven to near extermination, they would have ensured their protection in the Constitution.”

There’s that curious tendency to bring in other issues when unable to respond adequately to a comment. Yes, bud, perhaps they would have. Now feel free to return to the topic.

“And most of the Founders were Deists, not atheists.”

That’s a switch from most of the lib views I’ve seen posted here. Not that there is conclusive evidence for either.

“Also, what has been Christianity’s “large influence” on our country?”
Comment by RickS — November 29, 2007 @ 10:09 am

That last question is a joke, right, bud? Or was it just intended to incite your fellow libs? I’ll defer to them to point out the pervasive Christian influence in all areas of our society. They do seem to enjoy it so. ;)

face it trolls, a true christian would welcome a war on christmas as it is celebrated in this country.

And maybe if the writers of the Constitution foresaw slavery nearly destroying the country, they would have outlawed it from the start.

Or if they saw how whole parts of the Native American population would be driven to near extermination, they would have ensured their protection in the Constitution.

Slavery was an issue of contention at the Congenital Congress. Compromises were required to get the Declaration signed; however, John Adams predicted that the issue of slavery would raise its head again.

But as to the issue of “Native Americans”, perhaps their ( the founding fathers’ ) view was a bit more practical and much less enlightened than your view.

http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html

From the Declaration of Independence…

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

And maybe if the writers of the Constitution foresaw slavery nearly destroying the country, they would have outlawed it from the start.

Or if they saw how whole parts of the Native American population would be driven to near extermination, they would have ensured their protection in the Constitution.

And most of the Founders were Deists, not atheists.

Also, what has been Christianity’s “large influence” on our country?

Comment by Shayne

And given the hostility of wingnuts toward the FDA, it’s highly unlikely that he allows his meats to be inspected. Look at what happened to one of his neighbors just the other day!

Toddling E. coli survivor gives back to hospital

Posted: Nov 13, 2007 06:57 PM CST

ALBUQUERQUE – A 3-year-old New Mexico boy who almost died after contracting E. coli is giving back to the hospital that saved his life.

Kevin Mendoza carried the torch through Albuquerque today in the Children’s Miracle Network torch relay.

The relay benefits the UNM Children’s Hospital where he was a patient.

Kevin’s kidneys are still only functioning at 50 percent, and it’s likely he’ll need a transplant.

Today’s run was just a way to thank the hospital for all they’ve done.

http://www.krqe.com/Global/story.asp?S=7356017

Comment by RickS — November 28, 2007 @ 5:38 pm

Why would John Adams have worried about that? The country was young, most people were believers, and he couldn’t possibly have forseen the deterioration in morals that has occurred. The language of the treaty was intended to appease the Muslims who were attacking American ships and enslaving Christians. It was intended to distance American Christians from crusading Christians of the past. It’s true that the government of the U.S. did not declare Christianity our official religion. I think we all agree that religious liberty was a priority. That doesn’t mean the founders didn’t believe that Christianity would have a large influence and is hardly a basis for claiming all the founders were atheists, though there is sufficient evidence to question the depth of faith of some. There are enough references to God and our Creator to discredit that view. ;)