During tonight’s CNN/YouTube debate, a YouTube questioner asked the candidates why they refuse to condemn waterboarding as torture. Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney said that before making such a determination, he would need to get “counsel on a matter of this nature” from “a lot” of people. One of the people with whom Romney said he would specifically like to speak is Blackwater vice chairman Cofer Black:
I am not. I’m not going to specify the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the people that we capture will know what things we’re able to do and what things we’re not able to do. And I get that advice from Cofer Black, who is a person who was responsible for counterterrorism in the CIA for some 35 years.
Watch it:
Black is Romney’s Senior Adviser for counterterrorism and national security issues. He has described Black as a man with a “long and impressive career dedicated to making America safer and more secure in the world,” despite the fact that Blackwater has allegedly been involved in at least seven violent episodes this year that have left almost 30 Iraqi civilians dead.
Romney is also relying on a man for torture advice who in 2001, infamously ordered a CIA agent to “Capture Bin Laden, kill him and bring his head back in a box on dry ice,” and once promised put the “heads” of terrorists in Afghanistan “on sticks“:
“We’re going to kill them,” CIA counterterrorism official Cofer Black said, according to the book, which details the Bush administration’s build-up to the Iraq war. “We’re going to put their heads on sticks. When we’re through with them they will have flies walking across their eyeballs.”
Romney has repeatedly dodged answering questions during debates, instead saying he needs to consult with his advisers before taking a stand. During an October CNBC debate, Romney said that before figuring out if he’d need congressional approval to invade Iran, he’d have to ask his lawyers: “You sit down with your attorneys and tell you what you have to do.”
Transcript:
JONES: Recently, Senator McCain has come out strongly against using waterboarding as an instrument of interrogation.
My question for the rest of you is, considering that Mr. McCain is the only one with any firsthand knowledge on the subject, how can those of you sharing the stage with him disagree with his position?
COOPER: Governor Romney?
ROMNEY: Well, he certainly is an expert and I certainly would want to get his counsel on a matter of this nature, but I do not believe that as a presidential candidate, it is wise for us to describe precisely what techniques we will use in interrogating people.
I oppose torture. I would not be in favor of torture in any way, shape or form.
COOPER: Is waterboarding torture?
ROMNEY: And as I just said, as a presidential candidate, I don’t think it’s wise for us to describe specifically which measures we would and would not use.
And that is something which I would want to receive the counsel not only of Senator McCain, but of a lot of other people.
And there are people who, for many, many years get the information we need to make sure that we protect our country.
ROMNEY: And, by the way, I want to make sure these folks are kept at Guantanamo. I don’t want the people that are carrying out attacks on this country to be brought into our jail system and be given legal representation in this country. I want to make sure that what happened…
(APPLAUSE)
… to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed happens to other people who are terrorists. He was captured. He was the so-called mastermind of the 9/11 tragedy. And he turned to his captors and he said, I’ll see you in New York with my lawyers. I presume ACLU lawyers.
(LAUGHTER)
Well, that’s not what happened. He went to Guantanamo and he met G.I.s and CIA interrogators. And that’s just exactly how it ought to be.
(APPLAUSE)
COOPER: Senator McCain?
(CROSSTALK)
(UNKNOWN): There were reports Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded.
MCCAIN: Well, Governor, I’m astonished that you haven’t found out what waterboarding is.
ROMNEY: I know what waterboarding is, Senator.
MCCAIN: Then I am astonished that you would think such a — such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our — who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that’s not torture. It’s in violation of the Geneva Convention. It’s in violation of existing law…
(APPLAUSE)
And, Governor, let me tell you, if we’re going to get the high ground in this world and we’re going to be the America that we have cherished and loved for more than 200 years. We’re not going to torture people.
MCCAIN: We’re not going to do what Pol Pot did. We’re not going to do what’s being done to Burmese monks as we speak. I suggest that you talk to retired military officers and active duty military officers like Colin Powell and others, and how in the world anybody could think that that kind of thing could be inflicted by Americans on people who are held in our custody is absolutely beyond me.
COOPER: Governor Romney, 30 seconds to respond.
(APPLAUSE)
ROMNEY: Senator McCain, I appreciate your strong response, and you have the credentials upon which to make that response. I did not say and I do not say that I’m in favor of torture.
ROMNEY: I am not. I’m not going to specify the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the people that we capture will know what things we’re able to do and what things we’re not able to do. And I get that advice from Cofer Black, who is a person who was responsible for counterterrorism in the CIA for some 35 years.
I get that advice by talking to former generals in our military…
COOPER: Time.
All those in favor of taking drugs and then running around killing unarmed civilians, say aye.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:35 pmCofer Black said he wanted to offer Bin Laden’s head in a box to George W. Bush.
Of course Rumsfeld and Bush always say about Al Qaeda that they ‘chop peoples’ heads off’ as a great insult.
Go figure.
-GSD
November 28th, 2007 at 10:37 pmAnd that is why I’m currently supporting Romney for prez.
And it sounds like Cofer Black would make a good National Security Advisor in a Romney administration.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
Hell yeah! You and me brother, there’s too damn many of those dirty IRAKEYS as it is! Amen
November 28th, 2007 at 10:43 pmThat’s a joke, right?
November 28th, 2007 at 10:45 pmThose guys don’t know what torture is? And they want to be Presidents of America? This is another Bush-it!
Bu the way, any one of the Democratic candidates knows what is and is not torture.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:46 pmRomney is willing to take the war on terror seriously, and is willing to listen to people who know what’s actually going on, and know how to handle it.
Simple as that.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:46 pm
For sure brother, all them gotdam terrorist in EYERACK, kill them there so we don’t have to kill them here is what I say! That Toefer boy, he’s knows the score, don’t he?
November 28th, 2007 at 10:50 pmI started watching the debate with an open mind as to which of 5 candidates to support, but in the end, felt that Romney, Guiliani and Thompson each shot themselves in the foot at various times. I think it is starting to look like a Huckabee/McCain ‘08 ticket in the works.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
Hahahahahahaha! Fook. That is SO funny. And here I thought you had no sense of humor.
Good thing I wasn’t drinking, or I would have shot perfectly good bourbon out my nose.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:51 pmRomney is willing to take the war on terror seriously, and is willing to listen to people who know what’s actually going on, and know how to handle it.
Simple as that.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:46 pm
Simple is right.
“The war on terror”. Frickin’ hysterical. What a simple, one-dimensional, mindless world you live in, Bigfoot. Oooooh, the War on Terra! Bwaahaha.
November 28th, 2007 at 10:52 pmRomney is willing to take the war on terror seriously
November 28th, 2007 at 11:03 pmHow do you take the war on terror seriously? What is your definition of war on terror? How do you productively fight a war, as the neocon’s call, around terror?
I thought wars were fought country against country, not country against an emotion.
ColdHardLeft: “I think it is starting to look like a Huckabee/McCain ‘08 ticket in the works.”
I HOPE Huckabee is on any Repub ticket next year. The guy is a disaster waiting to happen. He was a corrupt governor, only 33% of Arkansas Repubs say they support him and if he gets into the general election, I would think he’ll eventually have to explain why he worked so hard to get Wayne DuMond released from prison so he could go on to rape and kill a woman in a neighboring state. Not to mention the fact that he’s a frickin crackpot who thinks the earth is 6,000 years old. Yes, by all means, bring on Huckabee!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:12 pmBut but but… if we DON’T call it torture, is it really torture? Mitt said we do not torture, we only use some undisclosed secret procedures.
Let’s use our universal tool perfected for terrorism: It’s NOT torture when we do it, it’s torture only when they do it.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:13 pmAnd that is why I’m currently supporting Romney for prez.
And it sounds like Cofer Black would make a good National Security Advisor in a Romney administration.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
Why? Because he believes that AMERICAN VALUES are the same as TERRORISTS and DICTATORS? Wow, you really are stupid.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:17 pmO bigmouth: “Romney is willing to take the war on terror seriously”
Yes indeed. So seriously that he’s willing to break U.S. and International law to fight it. So serious that he wants to do the same thing we sent Nazis to prison for life for doing and the same thing we executed a member of the Japanese Army for doing.
This is a real spectacle for the American people and I hope their watching these crackpots sound off. The smartest guy on the stage says he wants to cut funding for education!!?? The best looking guy on the stage says he wants to break the law and violate the Geneva Convention to “keep us safe.” The most experienced guy on the stage wants to continue a war indefinitely that 70% of the public opposes. And latinos have got to just loooove these guys. I’ve never seen so much latino-bashing on one stage in my life. The more they’re all exposed, the more I smile.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:17 pmCan you provide a cite to where Huckabee allegedly said this?
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 11:15 pm
And you don’t believe him, that the earth is 6000 years old? What kind of self respecting GOP lunatic are you?
“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth,†said Huckabee, an ordained Baptist minister. “A person either believes that God created the process or believes that it was an accident and that it just happened all on its own.â€However, when pressed about whether he believed in a literal interpretation of the timeline laid out in Genesis — that God created the world in six days about 6,000 years ago — Huckabee said, “I don’t know.â€
November 28th, 2007 at 11:19 pmI started watching the debate with an open mind as to which of 5 candidates to support, but in the end, felt that Romney, Guiliani and Thompson each shot themselves in the foot at various times. I think it is starting to look like a Huckabee/McCain ‘08 ticket in the works.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
So you’re hoping for the CRAZY and CRAZIER ticket? Well, that would fit you and your posts….
November 28th, 2007 at 11:20 pmcold hard left: “Can you provide a cite to where Huckabee allegedly said this?”
I’m not going to lift a finger to provide you anything but a swift kick in the keester, but maybe you should know that Huckabee, as a fundamentalist born-again christian, believes in the Biblical account of creation which holds that the earth is thousands of years old and is a creationist. He told John Stewart on the frickin Daily Show that he thought the earth could be only 6000 years old. It’s on Youtube somewhere. Go look for it yourself you lazy d*ckhead.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:22 pmRomney is willing to take the war on terror seriously, and is willing to listen to people who know what’s actually going on, and know how to handle it.
Simple as that.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:46 pm
Now if only he would have a war on stupidity, you might be the first casualty…
A WAR an on ideology? BAHAHAHA, you people are brain damaged!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:22 pmTime and time again I have asked What is the definition of winning this so called war?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:22 pmJust like O. Bigfoot unable to answer my post # 19, others, also, could not answer that question.
So tragic, this so called war on terror.
Question for Romney:
If a young woman or man in our armed forces was captured and waterboarded, would you consider that torture?
If she, or he, died…would that be torture?
If she, or he, gave testimony to war crimes committed by the U.S. would you say that testimony was given under torture?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:22 pmGovernor Romney, do you think it was wrong for our military to execute a member of the Japanese military for waterboarding our soldiers during WWII?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:25 pmGovernor Romney, do you believe that Jesus Christ visited North America and that Native Americans are the “lost tribe of Israel?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:26 pmGovernor Huckabee, do you agree with the writer of Genesis that there are two sources of light in the heavens, the sun and the moon?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:27 pmGovernor Romney, do you believe that when you die you will get for very own planet to lord over, and further, only you can decide if your wife can come along?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:27 pmGovernor Huckabee, after Cain killed Abel and went off to procreate, who did he procreate with? Monkeys?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:28 pmrudy wins!
rudy winds!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:29 pmGovernor Huckabee, why do we get “goose bumps?”
November 28th, 2007 at 11:29 pmAnd it sounds like Cofer Black would make a good National Security Advisor in a Romney administration.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
but would you trust him to deliver fresh meat and seafood? i don’t think so!
but rudy, there’s a boy you can trust…
November 28th, 2007 at 11:31 pmRudy wins! Bring Bernie Kerik front and center. International Order of Firefighters, get your commercials ready! And, by all means, let’s have the story about how Judy killed puppies to demonstrate medical equipment. People just love salespersons who kill puppies!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:32 pmCan you provide a cite to where Huckabee allegedly said this?
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 11:15 pm
Since he is a born again Christian Baptist-that is what he believes. They believe that fossils were placed in the earth by the devil.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:33 pmfirstly,o.biggy,you just get funnier with each post.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:35 pmsecondly i thought mccain’s response to romney was terrific (and he was staring daggers at romney while he was responding) - and mitt,still apparently unaware that waterboarding is torture,stood there with the dumbest most vacant look i think i’ve ever seen on any politician and stumbled through some bulkls**t about having to confer with other retired generals and cofer black…..what a knob.
Coldhardleft: “Huckabee said no such thing”
Hilarious. Hey, pardner, bring him on then. Oh, and I wouldn’t have expected you to find his quote on a Huckabee site, but critical thinking is obviously a foreign concept to someone like you.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:36 pmI’m looking forward to hearing from Rudy’s former wives and to hearing him explain why his own children don’t support him. That ought to be a hoot.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:37 pmI say quit trying to convince “cold hard left” about Huckabee and let him really get behind Huckabee.
I think the Repub party needs a guy who’s so tough on crime that he worked hard behind the scenes to get a rapist released who went on to murder a woman in Missouri.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:39 pmHuckabee booster: “Jack, the link on the Huckabee site is to the YouTube clip.”
You think that’s the only one, Einstien?
November 28th, 2007 at 11:41 pmI don’t know why I’m arguing. ColdHardLeft, you get behind Huckabee and work hard to get him nominated…. Please.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:42 pmWhy are the wingnuts all hot and bothered over the idea that Huckabee (or any other of their candidates, for that matter) is a young Earth creationist?
It’s not as if the Republican party and their followers have a track record of heeding facts, or evidence (let alone sound science) whether about evolution, the age of the Earth, global climate change, sex education, etc., etc., etc.
Like the fact that waterboarding is torture. It has always been, in spite of the denials coming from Pres Bush’s loyal followers.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:44 pmNo, JoeFriday, that is not what Huckabee believes. What he believes is shown here. http://huckabee.wordpress.com/ 2007/ 06/ 05/ gov-huckabees-powerful-discourse-on-the-creation-inquistion/
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Half my family are southern baptist and one brother is a baptist minister. You do not know what you are talking about. It is fundamental to their faith-the earth is about 6,000 years old to them because the bible says so and it is the word of g*d.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:45 pmHuckabee weasels around that one in true troll fashion: “Y’all are asking ‘is there a God’ and I know that there are others here who will deny that God exists because they are lying heathen mo’fos. But I believe in God and anyone who believes in God will vote for me.”
Pathetic.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:47 pmColdHard Left: “Jack, are you aware of a single candidate that has never made a mistake?”
I’m not aware of any candidate in my lifetime who worked personally to get a rapist released from prison only to go on to rape and then murder another woman, no. And, be honest for a moment - what do you think conservatives would say if a Democratic candidate had something like that in his or her background? Remember, we’ve got some history on this. Does the name “Willy Horton” ring a bell. Dukakis had NOTHING to do with Horton’s release, but republicans pounded Dukakis for months over Horton.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:49 pmNo, JoeFriday, that is not what Huckabee believes. What he believes is shown here. http://huckabee.wordpress.com/ 2007/ 06/ 05/ gov-huckabees-powerful-discourse-on-the-creation-inquistion/
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Sorry, but I already proved your wrong, moron.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:49 pmBart, I think that by some “literal” translations, the age of the earth is estimated at 400,000 years. Either way, they’re a bunch of crackpots.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:51 pmRomney is also relying on a man for torture advice who in 2001, infamously ordered a CIA agent to “Capture Bin Laden, kill him and bring his head back in a box on dry ice,†and once promised put the “heads†of terrorists in Afghanistan “on sticks“:
LOL! Romney has been watching too much of Jack Bauer.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:52 pmBart, I think that by some “literal†translations, the age of the earth is estimated at 400,000 years. Either way, they’re a bunch of crackpots.
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — November 28, 2007 @ 11:51 pm
It is all in counting up the begets correctly:)
November 28th, 2007 at 11:53 pmGummitch, you are setting up a straw man. Huckabee said no such thing.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 11:52 pm
Yea, and Bush never said Sadam had anything to do with 9/11.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:55 pmComment by cold_hard_left
president huckabee? nah.
president rudy, yeah!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:55 pmEven though the Redcoats had tortured revolutionaries and their supporters to death, George Washington wouldn’t even let his men mistreat redcoats or even the mercenaries they captured. What would the Father of our Country think of a leader who actively encourages his military to torture? I’m guessing he would call him “un-American.”
November 28th, 2007 at 11:56 pmGummitch, you are setting up a straw man. Huckabee said no such thing.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 11:52 pm
Of course not. He gave a simple answer about how much he loved God and how there were others on the stage who worshiped Satan.
You’re the pathetic one.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:58 pmSorry, Bart, I’m just not sure where I heard the 400,000 thing, but I think it was from a Jehovah’s Witness.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:59 pmIt’s curious why CNN put a member of Billary’s stearing committee in the audience and then gave him a microphone to let him speak on “don’t ask, don’t tell†for longer than CNN gave any of the actual candidates to speak on the subject.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 28, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
Ooooh, a conspiracy! The evil libruls are controlling the media! Booga booga!
November 28th, 2007 at 11:59 pmHey Joe, did you catch the look on Rudy’s face when the crowd booed him for saying guns should be regulated? What a hoot.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:00 amBack to Mitt’s stand on waterboarding, I was recently given some personal insight. I had the opportunity to undergo an endoscope. This is where a camera is shoved down one’s throat to check for bleeding ulcers and other GI issues.
Let me assure you all; having a 1″ tube down one’s throat for 13 minutes is torture. And that’s without the water, shackles, other physical trauma, hostile interrogators, or fear of drowning. It was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life.
I don’t care how much blood I puke. I WILL NEVER ALLOW THEM TO DO IT AGAIN!!!
November 29th, 2007 at 12:01 amcold hard left: “If you want to attack something he actually said, fine; but when you just set up a straw man, it shows the weakness of your argument, not to mention your intellect.”
Hey dude. You’re the guy supporting a candidate who is personally responsible for the rape and murder of a woman, so you’re not on very solid ground here.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:03 amYeah, Fred’s just great. He’s kind of a cross between Forrest Gump and Foghorn Leghorn. And I know women will just loooove a guy who’s married to a young woman who is three years younger than his daughter. Veeeeery attractive!
November 29th, 2007 at 12:05 am“And I get that advice from Cofer Black”
And I thought George Bush getting his advice on what constitutes torture from someone willing to bend the definition was bad enough. But at least he had the brains to get it from someone who pretends to be a lawyer.
Romney can’t be bothered with keeping appearances.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:06 amGotta go, but I just want to say to all the conservatives stuck with this bunch of losers, good luck, you’ll get a lot of help from the corporate media and you’ll need it.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:06 amFrom Mike Huckabee’s web site:
My faith is my life - it defines me. My faith doesn’t influence my decisions, it drives them.
This says, to me, that other considerations will not influence his decisions. That, alone, should disqualify him from public office.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:07 ampete, the Constitution says there will not be a religious test to be elected (bullsh!t). But not a crazy Christianist test. I don’t think he should be barred because he is a moronic Christian righty. He will never be elected because he is an extremist. That is good enough for me.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:10 amComment by cold_hard_left — November 29, 2007 @ 12:00 am
no one’s gonna take a guy named president huckabee seriously!
November 29th, 2007 at 12:11 amThis says, to me, that other considerations will not influence his decisions. That, alone, should disqualify him from public office.
Comment by pete — November 29, 2007 @ 12:07 am
That’s an Amen.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:11 amBART, not only the JWs. Billy Graham was all about the 144,000 as well. I am guessing his less tolerant spawn has lowered it to 1200.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:16 amGummitch, he didn’t say that either. If you want to attack something he actually said, fine; but when you just set up a straw man, it shows the weakness of your argument, not to mention your intellect.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 29, 2007 @ 12:00 am
You’re hysterical! “Straw man! Blah blah blah!”
The man does not believe that humans are descended from other primates. He weasels around about God “participating” in the process of evolution because otherwise he would look like a complete lunatic, but he pussyfoots around the entire issue because he wants to be credible as a presidential candidate.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:20 amAnd it sounds like Cofer Black would make a good National Security Advisor in a Romney administration.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
Clearly, you live in “Neverneverland”.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:21 amOh, hell, Jerry Falwell was going to to the netherworld in the first place. I hope his followers all follow suit.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:21 amGummitch, he didn’t say that either. If you want to attack something he actually said, fine; but when you just set up a straw man, it shows the weakness of your argument, not to mention your intellect.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 29, 2007 @ 12:00 am
Actually he said he didn’t know if it was older than 6000, which pretty much makes him as stupid as you are!
November 29th, 2007 at 12:22 amAlthough I am not a Thompson fan, I thought he had the best answer to the NRA member’s frivolous question about what guns they owned. As I recall, it was something like: “I own two guns, but I’m not going to tell you what they are or where I keep them.â€
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 29, 2007 @ 12:02 am
People that own guns are more likely to die with a home invasion than those that don’t. The NRA is nothing more than marketing from an industry of death that sprung up after the civil war to make fearful white men in the south feel ’safe’ from all of the darkies. The NRA is nothing more than the NationalRedneck&Asshole association.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:24 amI think rhf pretty much summed it up cold_hard. Facts are not something you are comfortable with.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:26 amcold_hard, nope, it didn’t have more substance. It is almost a year before the election. Nothing has substance. If you think it does you are a fool.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:27 amI did not say and I do not say that I’m in favor of torture.
Of course, for these rightwingers, it all depends how you define torture.
[T]he people that we capture will know what things we’re able to do and what things we’re not able to do.
Yeah, ’cause you know how them “tewowists” are glued to their TVs, or PCs watching US presidential debates.
/sarcasm off
November 29th, 2007 at 12:28 amComment by cold_hard_left — November 29, 2007 @ 12:26 am
If by “substance” you mean he managed to insult the intelligence of rational people, while betraying the Faith of true Believers, then yes. His answer was oozing with substance.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:29 amThat’s not what he said either RHF. The answer had more substance than that.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 29, 2007 @ 12:26 am
“It was deep. Very deep. So deep that I don’t really grasp it but straw man straw man it was important. Deep. Very deep. You just don’t understand, but what you say it was isn’t what it was. It was. Um. Deep. So deep. Transcentdally deep, but too deep for me to do anything but mouth moronic descriptions because, well, it was just too deep for me to explain to you. Because it was deep and there were no strawmen.”
November 29th, 2007 at 12:30 amBart, be fair, Dinosaur World has humans and dinos living together in disharmony!! The guy may be a tax evader but…no, that is all he is.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:34 amOf course Christian nuts ignore the bible when it says they must follow human laws as God’s law. If they didn’t they would accept abortion. Nothing but hypocrites.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:36 amWhere are the Tectonic Plate shifts and breakup’s?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 12:31 am
Well, it does say bats are birds, that grasshoppers have 4 legs, and that the Sun evolves around the Earth. So there.
What? What’s that? None of that is factual!?
Oh shucks!
November 29th, 2007 at 12:37 amNo, Bartlebee, Christians don’t only ignore those books. They ignore 75% of Leviticus and the other 25% is the most important part of the bible. They eat their jumbo shrimp and condemn gays when they are sinning just as much. They ignore whatever they don’t like and follow what they do.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:49 amTrue, Bart, we would be a benefactor in Iraq instead of an occupier if we were truly a “Christian nation”
November 29th, 2007 at 12:50 amHe advocates passive resistance.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 12:47 am
Which is why he wouldn’t dare return. Some pacifist hating “Christian” would simply nail him to another cross.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:52 amThat’s not what he said either RHF. The answer had more substance than that.
Comment by cold_hard_left — November 29, 2007 @ 12:26 am
The answer was that he didn’t know if the earth was older than 6000 years old - which means he’s a moron, and you’re an idiot for defending him!
November 29th, 2007 at 12:55 am“Christians aren’t bound by Leviticus, or the other books of the Torah.
Christians are bound by the “New Lawâ€, or “New Testamentâ€. The “good newsâ€.”
Christians aren’t bound by anything. They do, however, love certain Leviticus entries (i.e. the gay ones). They don’t, however follow the wearing of synthetics rule. If they were actrually bound by the new testement they would have no problems with gays.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:01 amif you believe the New Testament
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 12:54 am
That’s a big “if”, LOL. Actually, I’m not convinced “Jesus of Nazareth” is even a historical figure.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:03 amBart, it IS tainted. Which means there is no good evidence. And the best evidence they have is tainted by their hopes. The Ark? I don’t think so. Jesus’s brother? How is that believable? James? I am not that gullible.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:12 amIn his defence, Muckabee (and our resident troll) can’t handle numbers above 3 figures.
That’s for “elitists”.
/sarcasm off
November 29th, 2007 at 1:12 amI think our definition of “Christian” might differ. True Christians, those that are tolerant and kind and charitable ARE bound by the New Testament (the religious left). The majority are not. They are evil and pick whatever unholy OT story they like to back up their disgusting beliefs.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:18 amComment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 1:09 am
I guess I place less “faith” (pun intended) in well meaning scribes and historians. There are so many contradictions, and outright lies, connected to Jesus that I need a lot of salt to swallow any of it.
That being said, you are correct that there is evidence of his existence. But, 2,000 years from now, there may be evidence, of the existence, of Superman, Gandalf, and Micky Mouse.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:21 amI think our definition of “Christian†might differ. True Christians, those that are tolerant and kind and charitable ARE bound by the New Testament (the religious left). The majority are not. They are evil and pick whatever unholy OT story they like to back up their disgusting beliefs.
Comment by Sabyen91 — November 29, 2007 @ 1:18 am
No offense to you, but why is YOUR definition of Christianity more true than the hate filled Huckabee version? There’s plenty of hate, misogyny and ignorance in Christian biblical teachings as well, otherwise wingnuts like Huckabee wouldn’t have a basis for all of their sh**ty interpretation… Unfortunately the desert religions are all of both hate and love (but lots of hate), and you really shouldn’t ignore that aspect of the religion. It’s just as truthful as your more intended to be enlightened version.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:25 amWell, I think we can agree that modern, American, evangelical, bigoted, “Christians” like Pat Robertson have damaged the good name of Christianity as much as neocons have damaged “conservatism”. Those who use scripture to validate their destructive, cruel, evil actions are NOT what Jesus had in mind. Assuming that Jesus was Jesus.
And now I bid all people of good will a hearty G’night.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:36 amYou too trolls.
pete, the conservatives didn’t need neocons to damage their reputation. McCarthy, RayGun and the rest of the traditional conservatives did a fine job of that themselves…
November 29th, 2007 at 1:46 amYou are presupposing that the existence of the historical Jesus necessitates ascribing divinity to him.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 1:28 am
Not at all.
I merely point to the fact that ancient knowledge contains a probability of error. When that knowledge surrounds a person of mythical proportions, that probability goes up. Just like “tall tales” attached to relatively modern historical figures (Washington and the cherry tree, for instance) the size of the myth makes dispassionate observations difficult, if not impossible.
I’m not convinced that there wasn’t a Jesus of Nazareth either. However, I am highly suspicious of, virtually, everything ascribed to him.
“The Golden Rule” is a perfect example. If one believes Chinese history, and trust translators, one is faced with evidence that Confucius wrote “The Golden Rule”, virtually word for word, more than 500 years B.C.
So, one is left with the questions: Did Jesus receive this knowledge from the East and pass it on? Did Jesus and Confucius arrive at it independently? Or, did some scribe take a shine to Confucius and figure “that’s the kind of thing Jesus should have said. I think I’ll add it”.
Once again, G’night all.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:50 am“Well thats the problem. Conservative Christians have ruined it for all Christians. They made being Christian a dirty word.”
Perhaps you should have gone with that instead of telling me I am not well-read on the subject. You seem to have some fairy-tale view of Christians. Christianity has NEVER been a force for good. Go back to Constantine, the first Christian emperor. You will not be impressed. Christianity has ALWAYS been an excuse for murder. You say Jesus existed. Fine. Why does everybody screw up his words?
November 29th, 2007 at 1:58 amNo, theres not.
Read it. See for yourself. Thats the great misconception these bozos are spreading. That somehow Jesus supports their dogma. Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 1:45 am
Yes there is, as the religion of christianty includes all of those parts you want to ignore, in the same way it includes parts that Huckabee wants to ignore.
They are drawing from the Old Testament, and obscure cryptographical verses from epistles they usually don’t understand. Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 1:45 am
Unfortunately the texts associated with Jesus have him specifically saying that he wasn’t throwing out the old testament…
But there is nothing in the 4 Gospels taught by Jesus, that supports any of their hatemongering. Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 1:45 am
You’re wrong.
“For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” (Matthew 19:12 ASV)
or how did Jesus feel about the laws of the old testament?
“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)
Nothing that supports pre-emptive war. Nothing that even supports war for that matter. Nothing that supports condemning homo-sexuality. Nothing that supports torture.
Its all their own docrtines that have nothing to do with the Christianity taught by Christ.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — November 29, 2007 @ 1:45 am
I disagree. Much of the bible is contradictory, and even evil, along with what’s good - and that’s the problem…
November 29th, 2007 at 1:58 amIt doesn’t matter one bit whether the new testament is as pure and good as you think Bart. The reality is that ALL Christians are exposed to the Old Testament as part of their religious teaching. Listen to any minister. It is Old AND new.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:14 amBart, I was raised as a northern Methodist (not the Bush Methodist). They are very tolerant. The fire and brimstone is out. However, the going to hell is still in. And as a long haired youth the elder women decided I and my long haired friend were going to hell (because of our hair). I never saw in the bible that long hair would send you to hell (sounds like Jesus had long hair). However, these “tolerant” hags condemned us to hell for such a frivolous reason. Thanks, but I reject your Jesus was good premise…his followers only believed what they felt like believing.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:20 amLast night I had a terrible nightmare which left me in a state of terror. Thank God, when GWB wins the war against terror, I won’t wake up in that state anymore.
And who said the war against terror was worthless? Go team!
November 29th, 2007 at 2:21 amExactly, Bart, NONE of that is in the 4 gospels but then no Christian but you follows them, right?
November 29th, 2007 at 2:31 amRomney is willing to take the war on terror seriously, and is willing to listen to people who know what’s actually going on, and know how to handle it.
Simple as that.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:46 pm
Heh. Bush has “listened” to people who “know” what’s going on since before the Iraqi invasion, and he still managed to fk things up.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:35 amLast night I had a terrible nightmare which left me in a state of terror. Thank God, when GWB wins the war against terror, I won’t wake up in that state anymore.
And who said the war against terror was worthless? Go team!
Comment by Willy — November 29, 2007 @ 2:21 am
Define the moment that we can declare victory in the “war” on terror.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:37 amWilly is kind of a pussy. Don’t ask him for answers.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:43 amNo, Bart, but you are really saying Christianity is bulletproof as long as it is the Jesus sponsered version.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:47 amYou are NOT providing facts. You keep talking about the new testament. NO religion relies on it solely.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:52 amMaybe some fringe California religion is all about the prince of peace, I don’t know. No heartland religion is without Old Testament views.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:53 amBartlebee, no religion is pure Jesus!
November 29th, 2007 at 2:54 amCertainly not Christianity.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:54 amBartlebee, Jesus didn’t create Christianity. The NT wasn’t written untill a couple of centuries later.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:57 amAnd that is why I’m currently supporting Romney for prez.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 28, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
You support a president who runs to his lawyers to see whether or not he has to go to Congress for approval to invade another country.
You are whacked out of your mind.
ROMNEY: And as I just said, as a presidential candidate, I don’t think it’s wise for us to describe specifically which measures we would and would not use.
We outlawed the use of waterboarding until recently. We prosecuted the Japanese for using this technique in WWII. That means that the technique was used, at the very minimum, over 60 years ago. Mitt is an idiot if he thinks the terrorists aren’t aware of this procedure and haven’t prepared to be tortured in this manner.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:58 amSo who HAS followed Jesus’s teachings? Nobody. It seems his teachings are pretty worthless in real terms.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:58 amBart, it isn’t just neocons. It is all
November 29th, 2007 at 3:00 amChristians.
Bartlebee, so…what religious people are doing good?
November 29th, 2007 at 3:05 amTheme song for Magic Underwear Elohim supporter Mittster and Blackwater:
“Mercenaries” by John Cale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49rw8r7FBU
November 29th, 2007 at 6:19 amNote how incredibly skewed to the right the national debate is. If a Democratic administration had been caught using waterboarding, there would be no phony debate on whether or not it’s torture.
November 29th, 2007 at 6:26 amCNN so called debate ignored most important issues that a president will be facing.
1. War in Iraq……..ignored
2. Possible war ith Iran….ignored
3. The Israel/Palestinian issue,….ignored
4. Energy and its effect on the coutnry as a whole and consumers..ignored
5. Deficit and the trillions of dollars that we overspent…ignored.
6. Nuclear Defence Treaties with Russia,which is no longer exists ..ignored
7. Health cost ,care and millions of un - insured citizens…..ignored
8. Dollar position in world markets….ignored
9. Housing,and mortgage pressing issues…..ignored
10. Credit problems,personal and lending intitiutions…ignored.
I doubt it that of the thousands of YouTubes received by CNN that these issues were ignored…But the policy of pick and choose by CNN gave us a stupid meaningless debate.
It was reported today that the military general who asked the ‘gay in military question’ was in fact a ‘Hillary Clinton’s supporter.!!
The whole thing was way far from reality. It is sad that in a presidential debate..major issues were off the table.
November 29th, 2007 at 8:39 am#178 - “but balk at us pouring water on their faces to force them to give up information to save lives?” Comment by DreamCrusher — November 29, 2007 @ 8:07 am
Why do right-whiners continue to fall for the false line “we’re getting information from torture”?
It’s a fact that torture victims will say anything to stop the torture. They’ll lie, or admit to shooting Jesus in the face with a shotgun, just to make it stop.
Why do right-whiners love lies more than the truth?
Anyone?
November 29th, 2007 at 8:40 amDreamCrusher
Waterboarding was torture when the Spannish inquisition used it.
It was torture when the Dutch East India Company used it.
It was torture Yukio Asano was found guilty of using it on US troops and got sentenced to 15 years of hard labour for it after WWII.
It was torture when French soldiers used it in the Algerian war.
It was torture when it was used in Vietnam and it was torture when the Khmer Rouge used it between 1975 and 1979.
But it isn’t torture now because, hey, its Republicans doing it and IOKIYAR.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:06 amMcCain is right on this. Romney is wrong. There is a higher ground to stand on. Romney is too wrapped up in talking points and worrying about polls to stand on what is right.
Romney lost big points last night.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:21 amBack when he was still a heavy man a Canadian journalist/comedian named Rick Mercer was visiting America.
He is the guy who got Presidential candidate George W. Bush, who had triggered concern for his lack of foreign experience, to thank “Canadian Prime Minister Jean Poutine” for his endorsement.
When he visited Harvard he asked various students and professors to sign a petition encouraging Canada to pass a law outlawing the traditional Canadian practice of abandoning the elderly to drift away on ice floes.
When he visited Arkansas he asked Arkansas residents what they thought of Canada’s plans to build a dome over its capital buildings, to protect them from melting due to global warming. His segment showed various Arkansas residents congratulating Canada for these plans. Then he interviewed half a dozen Arkansas residents about Huckabee. Was the Governor an intelligent man? Did he have a good fund of general knowledge? They all agreed, “If he needs to know it, he knows it,” or reasonable equivalent.
Mercer closed his segment with a clip of a grinning large Governor Huckabee, shaking his hand, and saying, “Congratulations Canada, for saving your National Ice Palace.”
November 29th, 2007 at 9:37 amWow, if the whole “flies on eyeballs” comment doesn’t sum up the infantile, violent, frustrated, australopithecine side of the American public, what does?
It’s people like this, perhaps frustrated for life because someone caught them pulling the wings off flies or burning ants & told them not to because it wasn’t nice, who elected GWB & are the reason I for one am ashamed of what this country has apparently become.
I don’t hate America or the principles upon which it was founded, but I do hate the ways in which those principles have become twisted and / or sh*t upon, and I simmeringly despise the parties responsible.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:41 amYour comments are ignorant for several reasons Bigfoot.
First and foremost, the US prosecuted the Japanese for water boarding, as torture, allied troops!. Water boarding has been, continues to be, and will always be TORTURE. The US as well as the rest of the world has considered this torture for CENTURIES.
Second, your assumption that you like Romney because he is willing to “listen to people who know what’s actually going on” is absolutely ridiculous. This is not a “surprise” question. This is a major issue that not only affects the credibility of the US, but has been at the forefront of national scrutiny for some time now. If he hasn’t been able to make a decision on this, in addition to being morally bankrupt, he is either too stupid or too indecisive to make the important decisions necessary to be President of the US. Not to mention that he is IGNORING everyone that ACTUALLY DOES KNOW.
I am not sure what happened to my country. Has anybody seen it? Someone left “the Homeland” where my United States of America used to be. Someone has replaced my noble country with one that is actually engaged in a debate about how much pain we can cause a human being before it isn’t ok anymore. We are engaged in two “wars” and people in this country get tax breaks and no one is asked to sacrifice. A country where supporting the “war” effort means buying stuff. Where the sacrifice of Americans is judged by how much violence from Iraq they have to see on TV (if they don’t change the channel). This doesn’t happen in my USA - please help me find my country and return “the Homeland” to those that lost it. It may be the same people that own “the Fatherland”.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:54 amOn a side note, I am willing to bet EVERYTHING I OWN, that we can get EVERYONE who thinks water boarding is not torture, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, to say that it IS torture by water boarding them.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:59 amWhy do right-whiners love lies more than the truth?
Anyone?
Comment by Democrat Soldier — November 29, 2007 @ 8:40 am
It’s what they’re used to, it’s what they grow up on, it’s their whole platform. Lies, and more lies to substantiate the original lies. DC actually thinks Cofer Black spent his career defending the USA, that’s how easy it is to lie to rightards.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:02 amI have this theory that O. Bigfoot was forcibly removed from a showing of _2001: A Space Odyssey_ for making loud “ook ook” noises during the opening sequence.
Please, O, please: evolve a little, wouldja?
November 29th, 2007 at 10:06 amSo Mr. Bigfoot, was the US wrong in bringing the Japanese soldiers to trial for waterboarding? Will Bush exhonorate these soldiers now that it’s believed the waterboarding isn’t torture? Can we waterboard any criminal? Will the states be allowed to create their own techniques?
Enquirying minds want to know.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:16 amThe latest military handbook describes waterboarding (no detail in the version) as torture. Are you saying that the military is wrong? You should do a little more research and soul searching before jumping on the fear wagon.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:28 amThere is absolutely no question that U.S. military has gained important and useful information from these methods, acted on that information, and there is no question that information has saved U.S. lives.
If our enemies fear those methods, then apparently they are working, and that is good for the United States.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 29, 2007 @ 10:07 am
Lies, more lies. You have nothing to back up any of these statements, they are lies. There are nothing but questions on the effectiveness of these illegal techniaues, oultawed by every civilized country for centuries. Our “enemies” don’t fear those methods, if, according to you, they aren’t torture, of, if, according to you, our “enemies” do worse anyway. You have no factual basis for your misguided, antiAmerican oppinions, and nothing you have stated can be proven or demonstrated. You are a very sick puppy, explaining your rightward bias in spite of the right’s abject failure to defend this country or win their illegal wars. But, keep bringing your lies to the forefront; it loses you more credibility with each post.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:38 amYou can lump a Ford Escape and a Jeep Wrangler under the term SUV, but anyone who knows the difference will tell you the two vehicles have very different capabilities, and therefore can be used in very different manners.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 29, 2007 @ 10:23 am
and yet they are both SUVs, as waterboarding is torture. Why don’t you just admit your fascist leanings and your love of Hitler and Stalin’s techniques? Nobody would be surprised.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:40 amThere is absolutely no question that U.S. military has gained no important or useful information from these methods, and there is no question that this lack of information has saved no U.S. lives.
Since O. Bigfoot can make assertions based on NO information, that I could do so as well.
Both of our statements have the exact same level of veracity. I wonder if O. Bigfoot will admit this truth or not?
November 29th, 2007 at 10:46 amO. Bigfoot
Just admit that you are an anti-American coward in favour of torture. Your justifications and attempts at weaselling around your support for it just make you look like more of a wuss then we already know you to be.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:47 amMr. Bigfoot, I’ll respectfully take John McCain’s knowledge on the subject over yours. I will continue to believe that there is a higher ground to stand on and waterboarding has no place on it. If you want to lower yourself to the same level as the terrorists then go ahead.
This country is better than that.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:47 ampercieved “failure†of the Bush Administration will be when the economy weathers the current storm, as most indicators show it will?
It may or may not weather the current storm, but at least even you can see what a piss-poor job Bush has done. It’s good of you to admit it, too bad you haven’t the ability to think that clearly on the subject of 4,000 dead troops and a 5 1/2 year-long losing war.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:03 amNot if we create more enemies than we capture with the information (which is the case). Again you dodge the MORAL issues. Facts seem to mean little to you.
It doesn’t matter if you SAY “we don’t torture”. IF WE WATER BOARD - THEN WE TORTURE it is not that hard of a concept.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:24 amO. Bigfoot
Since when has economic success been based on not going into a full blown depression? Besides, the same guys who forecast America not going to pot have bought dollars in order to avoid the risks posed by the US sub-prime loans crisis - they aren’t particularly good.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:26 amBigfoot,
Aside from bending your moral standpoint to support whatever the current administration says, you are incorrect about the usefulness of torture.
The experts in the field agree IT DOES NOT WORK.
It also diverts attention and resources away from real security and surveillance operations.
It IS, however, very effective in creating scapegoats - since you can get anyone to confess to anything.
No, the point is that either they believe Water Boarding IS TORTURE and then the USA does torture (and I don’t want to be a part of a country that condones torture), OR the technique doesn’t work and they are lying to make the “non-torture” stop. Either case is an argument AGAINST water boarding. OR BOTH
November 29th, 2007 at 11:40 amBig Idiot:
No terrorist wants to kill you, you are not worth the bother. You are trash, no one would even notice if you were on this planet or not. They want to target NYC (where I live), Washington DC and other cities. What do we have in common, we’re all liberal because we can actually fathom that our rights mean something, we have travelled outside of this country, in much greater numbers, at least than you and your ilk, and understand that not all “foreigners” are scary, and we ultimately understand that Bush’s tactics make us less safe and make the US a pariah in this world, not a beacon it once was.
So why do you hate America so much and why do you want to see me die?
November 29th, 2007 at 11:58 amWaiting for your answer.
Romney Refuses To Call Waterboarding Torture, Says He’ll Consort With The Devil.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:12 pm“This concept seemed a little too hard for people here to grasp when they found out that program was commenced by the Clinton administration. ”
I was also against segregation in the military, until I heard that it happened during FDR’s administration, then it became hunky-dory for me. Because all those who post here are blind Democratic followers.
Just because it happened under Clinton doesn’t mean that it is any more justified. It was wrong under Clinton, and it is still wrong under Bush.
“Throughout Bush’s entire term there’s been not a single bill introduced which suggests it should stop. No calls for the prohibition on this practice in US law to be amended to remove the “assurance†loophole which allows it to continue now and under the next presidency.”
Well, you did have Republicans in charge of Congress, but now:
Waterboarding Is Torture, Says Ex-Navy Instructor
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/ content/ article/ 2007/ 11/ 08/ AR2007110802150.html
“House members and senators have responded to the controversy by introducing legislation that would extend a ban on severe interrogation tactics by military personnel to all employees of the U.S. government, including the CIA’s. “
November 29th, 2007 at 6:24 pmYes, it is Torture if you transfer people to other countries for the purpose of torture.
anything else you would like to ask? My views are not hidden in double talk or hypocrisy. I am for prosecuting anyone who has committed torture no matter WHO THEY ARE!!! I AM FOR WHAT IS RIGHT.
ANY MORE QUESTIONS!
November 30th, 2007 at 12:29 amComment by O. Bigfoot — November 29, 2007 @ 10:16 am
So it’s OK to make them think they are being tortured.
How do you define the difference between someone thinking they are being tortured vs. actually being tortured?
November 30th, 2007 at 12:49 amThe version used by the United States does not cause physical harm, and is primarily a psychological tactic.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — November 29, 2007 @ 10:23 am
It’s damn strange that you will sit here and speak openly about how we torture people because obviously you are in the know, when Romney refuses to say anything about torture because it will help prepare the enemy should they be captured.
Thus, I believe that you are assisting the enemy. You terrorist lover, you.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:52 amO. Bigfoot:
Is it acceptable to you for any captured members of the U.S. armed forces to undergo the waterboarding technique as practiced by the United States?
November 30th, 2007 at 12:58 amComment by O. Bigfoot — November 30, 2007 @ 12:28 am
And U.S. President George Bush attacked a sovereign country because they MIGHT attack the U.S. in the future.
Protect us my ass. Terror attacks and plots have continued around the world since he invaded Iraq. Yet those attacks don’t matter, because as Lynn Cheney recently told us, the other countries that were attacked, supposedly our friends and allies, aren’t important to America.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:05 amThroughout Bush’s entire term there’s been not a single bill introduced which suggests it should stop. No calls for the prohibition on this practice in US law to be amended to remove the “assurance†loophole which allows it to continue now and under the next presidency.
Comment by Kilo — November 29, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
It wouldn’t matter any way. That SOB in the White House would just issue a signing statement indicating that the administration didn’t have to follow the law, and that would be the end of it. And the wimpy pussies in Congress, the Democrats and especially the Republicans, would just let him get away with it.
Congress has already tried to set limitations on interrogation techniques, but Bush with the help of Gonzo and the Justice Dept. issued two secret memos that allowed them to get around the guidelines.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:18 amSource.
Yes —- amazing how easy it is to answer questions when you are telling the truth.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:19 amKilo
You claim a double standard when the only double standard on exhibit is yours.
This blog, a strongly Democratic blog, has criticised inaction by the Congressional Democrats.
Another, highly influential blog, Glenn Greenwald’s blog, is sharply critical of the Democrats and even leans towards Ron Paul.
Indeed, most liberals are in fact highly critical of the Democrats and the only support the Dems get is because, well, the Republicans are downright irresponsible, lying, theiving hypocrites whose policies can be summed up of “I’ve got mine so you” and who have so royally stuffed up that, about the best O. Bigfoot could come up with when it comes to the economy was “Well, we haven’t caused another depression, yet.”
November 30th, 2007 at 5:38 am“So you” should be “So !#!@ you.”
November 30th, 2007 at 5:39 amKilo
Gal? Stuff it, I am about as opposed to Hillary Clinton as you are, the only difference is that I oppose her because of her policies on censorship and war, you oppose her because she is female and has the surname “Clinton.”
The guys I want to see are Edwards or Obama. Hillary’s sole appeal is that Republicans don’t like her.
And face it, you don’t give a flipping toss about principles, its guys like you who turned torture into a topic Americans debate. You only give a toss about principles when you can slam someone else with no cost to yourself.
Hence your “Principled” stand on abortion, and your “Principled” stand against providing social healthcare. Your “Principled” stand on torture, which amounts to not even saying “Clinton did it too” but “The Democrats might do it too so therefore its okay.” I mean, it isn’t even a flipping four-year old’s appeal to “He did it too” its a hypothetical “He might do it too - maybe.”
That “He might do it too - maybe” is why liberals are all about voting out the jackasses who are doing it right now and putting the Democrats into power. But, oh, it is so much easier to, like a slimey, spineless wuss of a Republican say “It is like this it will always be like this” then actually change things.
And if the unthinkable happens and the Republicans actually win, I don’t expect to see you criticising them for anything, given your track record of rising to the defence with opposite yet equal “truths” which arne’t always even true. Clinton wasn’t spying on Americans, and he certainly wouldn’t have gotten a free pass if he was, from the same Republican Congress that impeached him for a blow-job.
November 30th, 2007 at 8:27 am“But now… what RickS ?
Now Democrats are in control of congress they still haven’t introduced a single bill to prohibit renditions.
The two articles you cite don’t even relate to this, let alone suggest anything has changed.
That was kind of the whole point of my post.”
Notice the quote I provided:
“House members and senators have ….introducing legislation that would extend a ban on severe interrogation tactics”
No, they haven’t introduced a bill, YET. They are currently working on introducing a bill. That was the whole point of my post.
November 30th, 2007 at 9:24 amKilo,
Yes, I will shout just as much if a Democrat does it. I have seen no proof of it. Has it happened under Democrats? I don’t know and it is irrelevant, I am against torture, against rendition and I want to see the US become a better country. I know the USA has done some very shameful things in the past - and, unlike you, I don&