Military overmedicating U.S. troops.
By on Dec 1st, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Military overmedicating U.S. troops.
A June Defense Department Task report found that the military system lacks resources to “adequately support the psychological health of service members.” A new investigation by ABC News finds that many counselors and therapists believe that instead, “too often the U.S. military is trying to medicate the problem away.” “Pretty much every person in my caseload is medicated, heavily medicated,” said Andrew Pogany of Veterans for America. “There’s potential for them to become addicted.”
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Everybody wins! Those pesky vets are medicated into staying out of sight and indoors, and there are big bucks in government contracts for Hillary’s friends at BigPharma.
December 1st, 2007 at 6:19 pmwhat a mess Bush has made
December 1st, 2007 at 6:26 pmDuncan Hunter: “Buncha wussy boys.”
December 1st, 2007 at 6:32 pmThe Westminster Committee on Iran
November 2007
The findings of two opinion polls gave an emphatic message that the public in the US, UK, France, Italy, Spain and Germany are opposed to any military action against Iran. A third survey, due to be published later in the month, demonstrates that this view is also held by large majority of members of the British parliament.
472 MP’s were question of whom 338 oppose military intervention without UN backing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_Westminster_Committee_on_Iran
The French already have an aircraft carrier group in the Gulf and will offer military support to the US led attack.
just 8 percent in France, 7 percent in Germany, 8 percent in Italy, 8 percent in Spain, 11 percent in the U.K. and 21 percent in the U.S.
December 1st, 2007 at 6:40 pmComment by loretta: “Everybody wins! Those pesky vets are medicated into staying out of sight and indoors,”
This isn’t about vets but about active duty GIs in theater! We’ve got a bunch of over-deployed, over-stressed kids with guns roaming around Iraq who are also over-medicated with narcotics and psychoactive drugs. This is completely insane!
December 1st, 2007 at 6:47 pmim sure the health care industrial complex is working on a marketing strategy as we speak.
“Do you feal depressed about all the pointless killing you’ve done for George Bush and his oil buddies? Missing a few limbs and the memories of seeing your best friend getting blown to bits in the unarmored humvee you drove around in getting you down? You may have a chemical imbalance. Try Paxill. The number 1 choice of patients with PTSD.”
December 1st, 2007 at 6:59 pmBenchmarks..reminder (4.00 / 1)
Those benchmarks are about to have their birthday on January 10;
“To establish its authority, the Iraqi government plans to take responsibility for security in all of Iraq’s provinces by November. To give every Iraqi citizen a stake in the country’s economy, Iraq will pass legislation to share oil revenues among all Iraqis. To show that it is committed to delivering a better life, the Iraqi government will spend $10 billion of its own money on reconstruction and infrastructure projects that will create new jobs. To empower local leaders, Iraqis plan to hold provincial elections later this year. And to allow more Iraqis to re-enter their nation’s political life, the government will reform de-Baathification laws, and establish a fair process for considering amendments to Iraq’s constitution.”
George W. Bush
December 1st, 2007 at 7:05 pmCompassionate Conservatism
December 1st, 2007 at 7:05 pmhttp://yournewreality.blogspot.com/2007/11/opec-player-200-for-barrel-of-oil-if.html
US Military Revolt Against NeoCons Bursts Into The Headlines
NeoCons Warned By Central Command Chief To Shut The Hell Up Over Bombing Iran
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ethnic_judaism&Number=295916430#Post295916430
IS ADMIRAL FALLON CALLING OUT FOR HELP FROM ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT?
Re: James Petras: US Military versus Israel Firsters
I hope this is true. But I find this fantastic. This is mutiny. I can’t see Team Zion flubbing like this and tolerating this Fallon. Can Bush really be this ineffectual?
A site for the complete Petras article. It’s in a pdf format.
http://www.lahaine.org/petras/b2-img/ petras_iran.pdf
Meaning the military is not going to let the ZPC (Zionist Power Configuration) destroy it.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:18 pmTP, you’re really pulling your punch here.
To top it off, 20/20 this week had an item on drug use among the military in Iraq. According to this news items, folks who went into the military drug-free were developing drug problems in the war zone. (and the military appears to be trying to suppress the news that this is happening).
I found 2 interviews rather interesting. One was a soldier who was “rehabilitated” saying that he went to a couple of simplistic lectures, signed a sheet that he attended and was therefore officially declared rehabed. The other was a leading military shrink who seemed amazed that anyone could possibly think that war experiences could produce a drug problem.
Combine this with the oversimplistic use of mood altering prescribed drugs. Add the knowledge that the military was a leading source of providing nicotine addiction by free cigarates (with the anxiolytic effects of nicotine). Add the military’s traditional under-provision for psych services for veterans (and the negative consequences for anyone who dared admit psychiatric problems.
Who was the guy in Catch 22 who was too insane to want out, but he couldn’t get out unless he asked, but if he asked, that would prove that he wasn’t section 8 ?
December 1st, 2007 at 7:51 pmWith all due respect to Veterans of America, I have to take issue with this notion that the vets coming back from Iraq are “overmedicated”, as if they shouldn’t be medicated at all. I’m a military physician and work with many wounded soldiers with chronic pain issues. The ones I see often have terrible injuries that have damaged their nervous systems, to the point that they have constant, excruciating pain. Sometimes the only thing we can do is to prescribe very powerful narcotics and other adjunct medications to keep these things under control. Not to mention that the vast majority that I’ve seen also suffer from PTSD/Depression and other anxiety related disorders, and sorry, these things sometimes don’t respond to “psychotherapy” and counseling. Does the military have all the resources to take care of all of these soldiers? I know where I work they do, but I can’t speak nationally. This sources for these articles are case managers who have no medical training, and really don’t know what they’re talking about. The military isn’t perfect, and we could always use more money and personnel, but the writers of this didn’t quote one military physician (psych or pain management) that can shed some light on the situation.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:05 pmDr.Longo: And how many of your vets are suffering from the contamination of depleted uranium?
December 1st, 2007 at 8:18 pmAs to the problem with addiction to oxycontin which the drug company upon whose Board of Directors Rudy Giuliani sits, was he just the one out of the loop in terms of addictible side effects or was the the published info to all docs – which we now know was totally bogus. Just wondering about those wonderful pain meds you refer to.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:20 pmDr. Longo: Sources for these stories are “case managers”?? And you’re basing this assertion of fact and information about the authors of this specific charge then?? There are plenty of VA physicians who would concur with this article and, in fact, may be disclosing material facts right now due to the potentially unethical and erroneous dx of “PTSD” when they know it’s something else – like radiation contamination from depleted uranium. It’s still called cooking the books and totally unethical and fraudulent under the Hippocratic Oath.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:28 pmLooks like our fine (faux) doctor has vanished? Guess he was a medical troll after all?? Don’t buy a word of what he’s stated in his post; instead google “Beyond Treason” and you may see precisely why this troll was sent out to do a hit job on what’s becoming known as the truth about what the medical profession is hiding about our sick veterans.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:30 pmImpeach Now: Great post and thanks for the links. It’s time for our military complex to stand up to this capricious regime. These two boobs in the white house don’t know a thing about war since one was AWOL his entire active duty and the other had 5 draft deferrments. Maybe there’s some hope of redemption for this country yet?
December 1st, 2007 at 8:34 pmMaple Street: I saw that segment on 60 minutes myself and I agree that this is probably occurring (and is a constant since WWII); however, the problem beneath this little tickler making it sound like it’s recreational drugs which are problematic is much greater than that. It may involve a massive cover-up (gag order) on VA physicians as to the real diagnosis of returning vets who are contaminated by our own ammunition (not to mention contaminating the countries we’ve invaded). The numbers of soldiers suffering the “death sentence” of exposure to depleted uranium in our ammunition is in the hundreds of thousands. Google “Beyond Treason” – it’s a youtube, free internet documentary but be forewarned: You may not be able to sleep tonight after viewing it.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:38 pmIt looks like they hook them while on active duty and then just keep them hooked as vets.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:45 pmJeebus effing Kreist, Bush has screwed up an entire generation of soldiers.
Comment by Longo: “With all due respect to Veterans of America, I have to take issue with this notion that the vets coming back from Iraq are “overmedicatedâ€, as if they shouldn’t be medicated at all.
With all due respect, doctor, we’re not talking about just returning GIs not getting the sort of care they deserve and need, though that’s surely bad enough. We’re also talking about people in theater who are being given narcotics for chronic pain or psychoactive drugs for PTSD and then being marked fit for line duty. That’s both criminal and gross malpractice. In the case of Maj. Awad, he was deployed in a combat capacity after being diagnosed with PTSD, for Pete’s sake!
“This sources for these articles are case managers who have no medical training, and really don’t know what they’re talking about.”
Sources for this article also include the patients themselves.
“….the writers of this didn’t quote one military physician (psych or pain management) that can shed some light on the situation.”
Being in the military, you’ll know what a closed culture it is. I doubt we’d get much light shed on the situation from the inside. Where were the military whistle-blowers in the recent Walter Reed scandal?
December 1st, 2007 at 9:04 pmComment by MapleStreet: “To top it off, 20/20 this week had an item on drug use among the military in Iraq. According to this news items, folks who went into the military drug-free were developing drug problems in the war zone.”
I have this nightmare vision of our GIs becoming addicted to heroin made from poppies grown in Afghanistan by the Taliban and smuggled into Iraq by al Qaeda. I just feel it in my bones that one day we’ll find out that this is happening.
December 1st, 2007 at 9:17 pmHey….They could care less about our Veterans..out of site is out of mind.Just keep them doped up…..That’s their philosophy
December 1st, 2007 at 9:19 pm“Everybody wins! Those pesky vets are medicated into staying out of sight and indoors, and there are big bucks in government contracts for Hillary’s friends at BigPharma.
Comment by loretta ”
You gotta love these loon trolls. Bush makes a big mess and his big pharma friends are rich and getting richer from the deal he made with them on the medicare prescription plan, and a troll plops the mess in Hillary’s lap. They really are out of ammunition, aren’t they!
December 1st, 2007 at 9:37 pmLooks like our fine (faux) doctor has vanished? Guess he was a medical troll after all??
Of course he has. He was just another troll sent here from the RNC to try to counter the latest bad news on the Republiscum side of the coin.
December 1st, 2007 at 9:43 pmEvening Bilbo! Amazing how hard the ever-transparent RNC sends in their trolls to attempt for “damage control” – sending in bogus doctor trolls now! This takes the cake! And, if one didn’t dissect his comments, he may have fooled the “unawakened”. And we have another year of this chicanery to look forward to??
December 1st, 2007 at 10:00 pmRU: Now we can add another group of people Bush has screwed – all of our vets!
December 1st, 2007 at 10:01 pmOff Topic: Republicans form a new plot to rig the 2008 election
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/printer2/index.asp?ploc=t&refer=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/341868_rigged02.html
December 1st, 2007 at 10:01 pmSorry about the printer all…
December 1st, 2007 at 10:06 pmEvening Veritas – Even if the doctor had not been a troll, what he had to say was horriffic. Look what we have done to those poor soldiers. And now we need to medicate them into oblivian just so that they can either stand to live with the physical pain or to live with the mental pain. This too is an indictment of Bush & Company.
This was the scary part of the article:
Gamal Awad, a former major in the Marine Corps, says Marine doctors in Iraq gave him an array of antidepressants and sleep medication so he could continue to function in the field.
The troll doctor was talking like the article was referring to vets who were out of the army and being medicated for either the wounds they suffered or from the psychological trauma. This clearly says that we are medicating our troops that are still in Iraq and still fighting. I’m wondering when the first case will pop up when a soldier kills an innocent because he is high on prescription medications. That will be a real eye opener. I’m willing to bet that it has already happened, but that they have been able to keep it under wraps and not publicized.
Then we have all the mercernaries who are hyped up on steriods.
What a mess.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:11 pmOff Topic: Republicans form a new plot to rig the 2008 election
And you have to know how they are getting the signatures on the ballot initiative. They go to college campuses and stand outside the quad. They stop students and ask them to sign a petition for something very worthy like “health care for kids”. Then they tell the student they need to sign more than one form. The kids are in a hurry and they sign where the person points. What they don’t know is that the other form they are signing is the petition to get this referenced measure on the ballot. They have been caught doing this several times, but it doesn’t seem to make any difference to them. They have the “ends justify the means” mentality. All a bunch of crooks.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:15 pmIs there ANYTHING that’s off limits??
December 1st, 2007 at 10:41 pmafter we are in iran we will realize how too late it is to fix anything and how we failed as a nation to give enough of a shit…
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:20 amComment by Kilo — December 1, 2007 @ 10:36 pm
Did you follow the link to ABC’s story? It’s quite clear that military personnel are being returned to combat despite debilitating conditions. The headline could be:
Military doctors drug disabled troops to fill the gaps.
Personally, I have a very big problem with this. It endangers the medicated people and everyone around them. Kind of like giving them worn out equipment. Oh wait. They’ve been doing that too.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:44 amHonestly, Kilo has a point. The general populace is overmedicated as well. However, that does not make it ok for Army docs to send those with severe injuries back into harm’s way with a bottle of Vikes. Or do you not agree?
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:52 amNow that I think of it, not only is the medical complex (and the Republican party) in the US is tied to the pharma companies. So…kilo…why are you and your ilk forcing drugs on people if it isn’t for money?
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:01 amI mean your dealin with crackers and Blacks and Mexicans and other wards of the court so to speak. So it’s not as if this were good americans you are screwing around for good cannon fodder for our little occupation im the de crusade land. I mean maybe the D of Defense should charge them more for being loose when they get thier next IED blast.
Youse guys always think that De Bush Man don’t have any humor.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:29 amWow, as someone who is critical of the war and what it’s done to our troops, I’m surprised at the paranoia and invective in here. As for depleted uranium, I can’t speak to that. As for some conspiracy to hide the fact that Oxycontin is an addictive drug, it is painfully obvious that you are a total ignoramus when it comes to pharmacology. ALL NARCOTICS have the potential for physiologic dependence, that is no secret. Addiction and dependence are 2 completely separate matters. Oxycontin is just one of many different opioids we have at our disposal. And how uranium can cause PTSD is beyond me. Please explain how that happens! The point is that the article needed a pain management physician to do some better explaining as to the rationale for the use of many of these medications. None of us like to use these medications if don’t have to, particularly on young people. I couldn’t agree more that the war has damaged a whole generation of young people, and it breaks my heart. I work with many of these wounded soldiers everyday, in the clinic and in the OR. As a service member who has deployed to Iraq, I’d seen unspeakable things. Things that led me to do everything I could to get Democrats back in control of this country. PTSD has a simpler explanation…young men and women who are in a totally different environment, doing combat patrols on a daily basis, witnessing violence on a scale that most people will never know. Those experiences more than explain what we’re seeing here. So please, enough of the conspiracy theories. All I am saying is that that article needed more depth and context from medical professionals.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:38 amAre you joking, Longo? It sounds like the only evidence you would believe is from the prescribing physician. Considering the military would have no choice but to court-martial that person if they talked (which they likely wouldn’t since they are MILITARY) there is little to no chance of a public whistleblower. Most of your post was very true but you somehow believe the brass are out to protect the grunt. That is weird.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:46 amBy the way, addiction and dependence are NOT two different things.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:47 amDuring the Vietnam war it was unheard of to serve more than 2 tours of duty and still too many of the military came back mentally messed up.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:26 amUnder Bush, the sociopath he is, I have heard some serve up to 6 tours of duty in Iraq. One can just imagine what this cruel act is doing to the mental state of our military. And what a mind twister it is when our troops find out it was over lies plus the fact they really do not understand what their mission is.
Besides Bush being the absolute worst commander of the armed forces , our troops have never been treated so badly in all our history.
Hey, folks–I’m no troll–I just see clearly what Hillary is. She is cut from the same cloth as BushCo, and unless people wake up and start to look closer, we are in for at least four more years in Iraq.
December 2nd, 2007 at 6:47 amAt least four more years of crippling deficits, more home foreclosures, gas prices steadily climbing, etc., because everyone is so focused on an illegal occupation that the rest of our house is going to sh*t.
I am a Democrat, and as such, will only vote for one. Therefore, Hillary will NOT get my vote.
Longo: Is that why the pharmaceutical company marketed Oxycontin as “non-addictive”?? Perhaps some of us affiliated with the medical industry can comprehend the chemistry and contraindictions of pain meds, the average american relies heavily on the mass advertising campaigns (television) of Big Pharma and/or their physicial who is prescribing the drug. To foist the onus of responsibility on the patient, particularly by a so-called physician, is not only unethical but a breach of the doctor-patient relationship.
Since when does the principle of ‘caveat emptor’ apply to the physician/patient relationship? Since when does the patient have to take responsibility for the propaganda which is being channeled by a drug company and not the drug company itself as well as the prescribing physician?
Besides, regarding your assertion that people on this thread are paranoid, I would submit that we have every reason to be so these days with the massive “non regulation” of our pharmaceuticals (defacto admission that there were “problems or glitches” in the meds after people died!), our food supply, etc.
I stick to my premise that it is you, our self-professed “professional” who should be made to account for your prescribing methods as well as the degree to which you “inform” your patients about the drugs they’re ingesting.
Good Day.
December 2nd, 2007 at 7:24 amLoretta: I second that!
December 2nd, 2007 at 7:25 amAmerica is being over medicated by a warmongering, nit-wit, boy-chimp.
Paxil for the apocalypse.
-GSD
December 2nd, 2007 at 9:33 amSabyen: I am the “brass”, and yes, there have system failures, but do not construe that to mean that officers in the military don’t care about what happens to their troops. I’ve seen too many weeping platoon leaders/generals at the bedside of dying soldiers to believe that the “brass” doesn’t care.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:19 amVeritas: I agree, Big Pharma spends more than $25 bil on marketing, and it’s disgusting. You seem to think that 18 yo privates with devastating injuries are coming to my clinic begging for oxycontin because of that marketing. Sorry, that just doesn’t happen! And this notion that we military physicians are somehow ignorant of the facts about how Big Pharma operates is a little silly. First of all, we are prohibited from taking gifts or trips from any drug company or product manufacturer,and that is strictly enforced. So this idea that we’re in the pockets of Big Pharma is just complete nonsense. Another misconception is that we are putting the “onus of responsibility”on the patient. Veritas, the job of the physician is to educate the patient about the benefits and risks of any medication regimen or procedure. And when it comes to opioids, I accept a huge risk (which is why my patients are required to sign a patient contract) if the soldier becomes impaired while driving or sells medications or has an adverse reaction. There are strict monitoring protocols with these patients, and they are fully informed about the side effects of any medication we prescribe. So instead of accusing me of being a troll and making yourself look like a complete fool, why not tone down the paranoid conspiracy theories and stop being so pathologically cynical!
Hmmmm…blaming the troops again, eh?
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 2, 2007 @ 11:21 am
That’s not what boreas said, you disingenuous cretin.
Nice Jingle Ballsâ„¢m BTW, but the candycane striped codpiece is a little too much.
Saaayy… mebbe we should ask an expert on drug addiction about oxycontin… anybody got Limbaugh’s ph number?
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:25 amSo instead of accusing me of being a troll and making yourself look like a complete fool, why not tone down the paranoid conspiracy theories and stop being so pathologically cynical!
Comment by Longo — December 2, 2007 @ 11:19 am
I think Saybean’s right. You’re a troll.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:27 amAnd when he’s wearing his Jingle Ballsâ„¢, instead of the Neuticlesâ„¢, you can hear Li’l Footie comin’ from a mile away.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:28 amSabyen: Please refrain from making yourself look more foolish than you already have. Physical dependence is tolerance to a medication and once stopped is associated with withdrawal symptoms. Addiction is characterized by impaired control over use, craving to point of engaging in criminal activity to get more of the medication. Most people who are on chronic opioids NEVER become addicted.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:33 amMedicating symptoms instead of determining the problem seems to be SOP for American medicine. For years I, for whatever reasons, always had male GPs whose sole method of dealing with a problem was to prescribe something that would mask the symptoms but not determine what the problem was. I eventually ended up with my first female GP almost 15 years ago who was the first to accurately diagnose a brain chemical imbalance that turned out to be the primary cause for my migraine headaches and mood swings. She determined that the problem was with my serotonin levels, prescribed an SSRI and that resolved many of my medical problems. I now insist on having female GPs who I believe do a much better job of treating the patient and not the symptoms of a problem.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:33 amAddiction is characterized by impaired control over use, craving to point of engaging in criminal activity to get more of the medication.
Comment by Longo — December 2, 2007 @ 11:33 am
So addiction reguires criminality. Great news! Alcoholics in particular must be rejoicing.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:38 amComment by Longo: “And how uranium can cause PTSD is beyond me. Please explain how that happens!”
Gladly. Weakness, lethargy and fatigue, to name a few are symptoms of both PTSD and radiation sickness. If you have a patient who presents with these symptoms and if your organization (the military) acknowledges the reality of one diagnosis (PTSD) but not the other (radiation sickness) what’s a poor doc to do?
Oh, and didn’t they teach you about paragraphs somewhere in med school? Man!
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:41 amComment by Kilo: “Rubbish. The article is entirely about the treatment of returned servicemen, with 1 anecdote from a soldier about receiving drugs while in theatre. Is there nothing you won’t spin here ?”
Read it again, Kilo, especially the part about Major Awad who was deployed to Iraq after being diagnosed with PTSD as a result of his experience at the Pentagon on 9/11.
Oh, and too bad about Howard. :-)
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:55 amRubbish. The article is entirely about the treatment of returned servicemen, with 1 anecdote from a soldier about receiving drugs while in theatre.
Is there nothing you won’t spin here ?
Comment by Kilo
Rubbish. You are obviously too lazy to read the entire article. Plus, I posted a paragraph out of the article that clearly showed that they were also talking about medicating people still in Iraq so that they could send them back into the fight. You are the one trying to spin here. And people here are on to you and your ilk.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:56 amHelen: Sorry, but when a soldier has his leg blown off, and think we can determine what the “cause” of his pain is. And yes, we are masking the pain, because we can’t magically use herbs or magnets to make it better. Pain management is about treating pain when the cause is known and nothing can be done, or when no cause can be found.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:03 pmdbadass: grow up
Boreas: You are describing many symptoms, but what you are failing to do is explain how depleteduranium causes PTSD. I understand radiation sickeness, what you don’t understand is that depleted uranium emits a-particles, which can stopped….by a piece of paper! So again, just stop pretending you know so much. It is you who need to read a few paragraphs from a medical textbook.
Sorry, Kilo, didn’t read carefully enough. Actually there were 2 references to soldiers being returned to combat duty heavily medicated. The first was a Spc. Reuter who was given a baggie full of painkillers and sent on his way and the other was the aforementioned Maj. Awad who wasn’t “returned” but initially sent into combat medicated for PTSD.
In any event, the article as a whole discussed only a handful of cases. Are we to assume that this is the extent of the problem? Are we to assume that only Reuter and Awad were sent into combat armed with medication and diagnoses which should have exempted them?
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:07 pmComment by O. Bigfoot: “Hmmmm…blaming the troops again, eh?”
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity: “That’s not what boreas said, you disingenuous cretin.”
No, it certainly wasn’t. Thanks.
Bigfoot-In-Mouth?
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:13 pmdbadass: grow up
Comment by Longo — December 2, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
I am a little too old for that at this point but let’s exam this a little closer shall we. By your definition of addiction few chronic opioid users ever become addicts. By chronic I assume you mean longterm and reoccuring. If this is true what say you as to other chronic users of other “medications” It seems we may need to rethink our arcane drug laws if you are correct. Do you believe that chronic users of alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, kot, and on and on rarely become addicts. If not what biochemical mechaniziisms separate their chronic use from those of the opioids which seem so nonaddictive in your medical opinion?
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:14 pmComment by Longo: “So instead of accusing me of being a troll and making yourself look like a complete fool, why not tone down the paranoid conspiracy theories and stop being so pathologically cynical!”
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity: “I think Saybean’s right. You’re a troll.
Quite possibly. My Troll Alarm starts to vibrate anytime someone self-advertises about their progressive credentials or anti-Iraq bona fides.
That being said, I think Longo has a point of sorts. I see a lot of posts here which talk about all of our trolls being agents of the RNC. I don’t really buy that. Some may be but I think the overwhelming majority of them are self-appointed agents provocateur or insurgents of the Right, not “rot-bots” sent by Karl Rove and his ilk.
Trolls are best taken as misguided by their own prejudices rather than as Minions of the Dark Lord. :-)
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:20 pmComment by Helen Rainier: “I now insist on having female GPs who I believe do a much better job of treating the patient and not the symptoms of a problem.”
Hmmm… maybe she was left handed. Maybe that’s why she got it right. Never know…..
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:24 pmdbadass: If you want to be taken seriously, engage in serious discussion, and refrain from mischaracterizing my position. There is a huge difference between chronic opioid users who under physicians care and those use abuse recreational drugs like cocaine/meth/alcohol. Patients who are on long term opioids are seen once a month, their doses are strictly regulated, and I reserve the right to obtain urine drug screening at any time. And the patients know this, because most physicians who prescribe these meds make them sign an opioid contract. If patients break their opioid contract and/or show signs of addiction, they are immediately referred to an addiction specialist. There is biochemical difference, but there is a huge psychosocial difference, and that is why , under a medical professionals care, these medications can be used safely without undo fear of addiction. It is this misconception that has led to social stigma many patients on opioids must endure by an uninformed public.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:27 pmDildoDaggins wrote: “Wrong again, RoS. That’s exactly what boreas said. boreas was looking for an excuse to denounce the troops in Iraq by incorrectly assuming that there is any evidence at all that troops in the field are overmedicated. Evidence that simply does not exist.”
What are you, fanatically agenda-driven or just box-o-rocks stupid? First off, I am a “troops”, or a vet really, and I resent the hell out of you guys screaming “Troops!” every time somebody gores your pet ox. You don’t “Support” the troops; you use them as the bloody shirt to wave in the face of anyone who disagrees with your insanity.
I won’t bother to explain to you what I did mean because I think you already know that and I know that anyone with the ability to read what I wrote in a spirit of objectivity and intellectual honesty already knows.
Now, go back under your rock.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:32 pmPlease expound upon this biochemical difference. I am interested. Would not medical marijuana under the prescribed regimen of a physician not be the same? If not why not?
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:33 pmThere is no difference. Ecstasy or marijuana, if given for the right medical reasons, can be used safely in the confines of medical treatment. There are huge differences though, between marijuana and opioids. Marijuana is not usually associated with physical dependence, opioids are. The receptors activated are totally different too. That holds true for all drugs. Medical marijuana is actually used in my institution for the treatment of chemotherapy induced undereating (marinol). I’ve actually thought about using it for certain painful conditions, but it’s prohibitively difficult to get. So the point is that the use of these drugs for purely recreational purposes commonly do lead to addictive behaviors, but under the tight controls of a medical professional, they are not only safe, but hugely beneficial for many patients.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:43 pmComment by Longo: “Boreas: You are describing many symptoms, but what you are failing to do is explain how depleteduranium causes PTSD.”
There’s a really good reason for that: I never said it did cause PTSD. The contention – mine and others’ – is that radiation sickness cases are receiving an “official diagnosis” of PTSD because DoD doesn’t want to acknowledge the existence of a problem with DU – just like they didn’t want to acknowledge a problem with agent orange, just like they didn’t want to acknowledge PTSD and just like they still don’t want to acknowledge the existence of Gulf War Synrdome.
“I understand radiation sickeness (sic), what you don’t understand is that depleted uranium emits a-particles, which can stopped….by a piece of paper!”
Yup! And our troops go around Iraq covered head to toe with paper, right? Does bare skin protect against alpha particles” Are they filtered out somehow on their way into the lungs?
“So again, just stop pretending you know so much. It is you who need to read a few paragraphs from a medical textbook.”
Okay, just as soon as you stop pretending to be a doctor.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:44 pmComment by Longo — December 2, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
Makes sense to me. Seems you might have missed a “no” as your earlier post stated that there was a biochemical difference
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:49 pmI have to agree with Longo. Dependance and addiction are different. And, though I don’t presume to speak for him, I think that resorting to criminal activity is one, possible, way that an addict will use to satisfy an uncontrollable craving or urge.
By far the most common form of prescription drug abuse is to take the prescribed dose plus alcohol. Second most likely would be overstating symptoms to get more. Followed by unlawful acquisition/distribution of prescription meds. (I once employed a gentleman who would sell his prescribed meds for alcohol and illicit drugs. I’m glad to say he kicked it after some years and I hear he’s still clean and sober.) Criminal activity to support an addiction would be considered the last symptom.
Also, as I understand it, there are two issues with depleted Uranium. Uranium is toxic if ingested; similar to lead, mercury, or other heavy metals. This, alone, is very serious. I remember reading that one will suffer it’s effects at levels much lower than needed for significant irradiation. The unknown is; what effects a mildly toxic dose has over the long term. Dust in the lungs, for instance, is theoretically able to cause radiation damage to cells in addition to it’s toxic properties. Regardless, it appears that depleted Uranium is a very bad idea.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:54 pmDr.Boreas,
You implied that DU should be considered an etiologic factor in the diagnosis of PTSD. Again, you never explained the mechanism by which DU could lead to PTSD. The WHO, IAEA and numerous other organizations have never confirmed a significant health risk from exposure to DU. That’s not to say there is no risk, it does not explain PTSD, which is what you implied. So please, you’re digging yourself into a hole here, and not coming off well. It’s embarassing that some of my fellow liberals are just as paranoid as their conservative counterparts. Come on guys, let’s be realistic and reasonable. Given what I’ve read thus far, I doubt I’ll hear a substantive response, just more “the fake doctor is a troll, I’m the authority here”.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:23 pmOh and Dr.Boreas, alpha particles do not penetrate the skin. You may not have learned that during your medical training in Grenada.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:29 pmComment by boreas — December 2, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
You got it pegged. I guess the BART-troll has dulled my senses till my BS meter isn’t functioning. Isn’t it amazing how they can’t argue coherently, even when given most of their arguments?
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:33 pmFrom Longo: “You implied that DU should be considered an etiologic factor in the diagnosis of PTSD.”
Post the quote from me where I said that…. if you can.
Again, you never explained the mechanism by which DU could lead to PTSD.
For a very good reason: I never said that DU could produce PTSD. That’s wrong on its face since, by definition, PTSD is stress-induced and radiation sickness is caused by the introduction of a chemical poison. All I said was that PTSD and radiation sickness share certain common symptoms.
Now, enough of your straw men. If you can find something I actually wrote, complete with citation, with which you can take exception, have at it. Otherwise it’s you who is coming off badly, not me.
Or maybe we both are by virtue of beating a very dead horse.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:48 pmFrom Longo: “Oh and Dr.Boreas, alpha particles do not penetrate the skin.”
Alpha particles do not readily penetrate the skin but it’s not impossible. Plus my second observation – which you chose to ignore – is far more significant. Alpha particles readily enter the body via respiration and lodge in the lungs. Prolonged exposure, such as sitting inside a tank or a Bradley where DU rounds are being fired constantly results in very significant exposure.
Also, alpha particles tend to lose kinetic energy fairly quickly so they don’t get dispersed very far. That means the particles tend to exist – where they do exist – in high concentrations, making significant contamination more likely.
“You may not have learned that during your medical training in Grenada.”
Nope! Ronnie Raygun blew the place up before I got that far in my studies.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:08 pmFrom Longo: “The WHO, IAEA and numerous other organizations have never confirmed a significant health risk from exposure to DU.”
Well, studies of this sort aren’t under the mandate of the IAEA. They’re concern is the use of nuclear power and the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
The WHO reports are six years old and incomplete. The report stating the final conclusions to the 2001 study, conducted in Bosnia and Kosovo, hasn’t been made public.
Please note that there is no WHO report which examines the effects of DU in Kuwait and Southern Iraq as a result of the Gulf War and certainly no report of DU’s effects in Operation Iraqi Liberation. Either of these places will doubtless prove to be much better “laboratories”.
“That’s not to say there is no risk,”
You’re damned right it’s not!
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:20 pmPersonally, I am ashamed of Americans who will look for any excuse to critisize our troops.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 2, 2007 @ 11:49 am
And I’m personally disgusted w/ dishonest, malicious clowns like you who comes here and deliberately distort other posters’ comments endlessly in a desperate attempt to make yourselves look right no matter what. You’re so F-IN’ OBVIOUS.
Just.. like… yer… CODPIECE, almost everything you say is phony.
BTW, it’s “criticize”, you idiot.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:24 pmI agree w/ you boreas.
Aside from whether he’s a doctor or not, Shorto’s a troll. No real, working doctor would have the time to come here and post like this.
Trol, troll, and… huh… troll. 100%, pure, uncut TROLL.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:26 pmComment by Longo: “And how uranium can cause PTSD is beyond me. Please explain how that happens!â€
Me: “Gladly. Weakness, lethargy and fatigue, to name a few are symptoms of both PTSD and radiation sickness. If you have a patient who presents with these symptoms and if your organization (the military) acknowledges the reality of one diagnosis (PTSD) but not the other (radiation sickness) what’s a poor doc to do?”
Well, I owe Longo a qualified apology. I found the source of the confusion here. I read the question he posed incorrectly and answered the question I took him to be asking.
That being said, my confusion as to his question should be clear from my answer. I was saying not that DU can cause PTSD but that radiation sickness from DU can be mistaken for PTSD because they share symptoms in common. So you go with the Dx your superiors will accept.
Now, I really have beaten this to death so I’m hanging it up.
December 2nd, 2007 at 4:25 pmRead it again, Kilo, especially the part about Major Awad …
Comment by boreas — December 2, 2007 @ 11:55 am
“Yeah, that was the 1 guy I was referring to.”
Again, there were two. Maj. Awad who was suffering from PTSD and Spc. Reuter who was suffering from chronic pain. These were examples, meant to reveal the types of patients who were being doped up and sent back into combat in some cases. They weren’t meant to constitute the full scope and prevalence of the problem. You have to see that.
“Likewise, the article not featuring that guy’s name in the title should let you know that ain’t the topic.”
Nice try, drongo. What it means is that the article isn’t just about him.
December 2nd, 2007 at 4:37 pmBoreas,
December 2nd, 2007 at 4:49 pmEnough dude. Let’s agree that we all hate the war and want the troops home. Let’s not copy the Rethuglicans and forget who the real enemy is.
Dr. Longo – in reading your post, I see mention of physical injuries.
The overmedicated posts seem to be about psychiatric injuries.
December 2nd, 2007 at 7:06 pmSorry, forgot to add, I’m surprised that a physician wouldn’t recognize this difference right awayl.
December 2nd, 2007 at 7:09 pmMr.Maplestreet,
If you actually read the article, you would realize that they were talking about “physical and psychological pain”. I think it’s in the second paragraph. Psychological illness often accompanies chronic pain, so the two really are intertwined. Cheers!
December 2nd, 2007 at 9:36 pmLongo – I (and several others on this list) did you the courtesy of ascribing a title to you, even though I had questions about it.
As a simple matter of courtesy, you should extend the proper titles to others.
And yes, I’m quite aware of pharmacologic protocols.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:18 pmOh, let us have the government take over the medical world. They do such a great job. A socialized, universal healthcare precursor.
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:18 amANecessaryEvil – unfortunately, to change the thread, I see National HEalthcare as “A Necessary Evil”. Under the private system, someone with a cardiac arrhythmia would has trouble getting health insurance, someone who has been diagnosed with prostate cancer can’t get reasonable insurance (see Cheney, Giuliani…). What about the high percentage of people with diabetes ? After all, why would a free-market capitalism want to insure people who are likely to need a doctor.
Bringing it back to the thread – I’m not against military medicine – a lot of the problem is that insufficient resources have been allocated to insure proper follow up. Admittedly, there is an argument going on the advisability of using heavy drugs for long-term relief of pain (and leaving the addicted to somehow sort it out for themselves or let the docs back home deal with the addiction). There is a problem of going straight to drugs for psych problems. But military docs are faced with an abominable situation and have to quickly do something to stabilize the situation.
But in that is also a danger that I see under a national healthcare plan – no matter how good the plan is made, the resources it has available are then under the control of some grandstanding politician trying to make themselves look good by either cutting the budget, extending the budget, and/or earmarking where the money has to go.
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:52 pm