Why do you suppose Rep. Stark withdrew his criticisms of bush playing with toy soldiers crying? Stark and his family were threatened.

First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

You’ve already been culled from the herd. — Joe T.

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I’m not quite certain that I follow your line of reasoning, Joe T. — and since I agree with your basic premise wholeheartedly, I’m virtually as certain as I can be that it’s gone waaaaaaay over Frank’s head if I’m having trouble with it. As far as I can tell, unless you intend “culled from the herd” as an implication that Frank is being groomed (whether he realizes it or not) to potentially become one of the “they” who will be coming to take people away, then I really don’t see the logic in your statement. If and when an authoritarian government should ever succeed in seizing power in this country — and as I told Southern Man, the people of the United States have nobody but themselves to blame if that ever happens — it seems rather unlikely that Frank will be one of those who’s “culled from the herd” and taken away because the odds seem highly in favor of him being one of those marching mindlessly in unquestioning lockstep behind the government, believing that the basic laws of mathematics have miraculously been suspended and/or superceded by Presidential decree so that two plus two now equals five (and yes, that was intended as a literary reference…).

Have you?

Comment by tombaker — December 7, 2007 @ 1:34 pm

We all have. 9/11 — Southern Man

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Let me tell you something, fella…I LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY and was doing so long before 9/11. Don’t you even think about trying to lecture me about the impact of 9/11 because I WILL NOT stand for it. I was not at the Twin Towers that day, but I was nevertheless here in the city when it happened — where, if I may be so bold, were you? I personally saw and smelled the smoke in the weeks following 9/11, and I know people who lost several close personal friends on that day. For weeks if not months afterwards, I was quite literally unable to stop myself from looking up at the sky when I heard a plane fly overhead. Can you say the same? Your moniker suggests that the answer to that is a resounding NO.

For eighteen months — albeit over a year after 9/11 — I got on the subway every morning and every evening to get to and from my job only a few blocks away from Ground Zero. Can you say the same? Your moniker suggests, once again, that your answer to that is a resounding NO.

Did it ever occur to me that there might be another terrorist attack — perhaps in the subway station, or on the train? Actually, yes — and I’d be lying if I said that it doesn’t sometimes occur to me still. With all due respect, however, is it really terribly likely that there’s going to be a terrorist attack where you live? If I lived in even half as much fear as you apparently do, I’d either have left New York a long time ago or I’d be barricading myself inside my apartment twenty-four hours a day with a gun trained on the door. Just because I know that there could potentially be another terrorist attack on this country — possibly even one in which I could personally be deprived of loss or limb — does not mean that I’m willing to live in fear or let everything that our Founding Fathers fought for be slowly eaten away from within simply because of people like you who have let this tragedy turn you into such yellow-bellied cowards that you practically see enemies lurking in every shadow and would rather sacrifice every single last civil liberty that you have in order to be “safe”. Safe from whom, exactly? If you’re willing to sacrifice most of your civil liberties for the sake of safety, what in the name of all that’s sacred makes you cling to the naive belief that you’ll really be safe — since you’ll potentially be in just as much danger if not even more so from the people who are ostensibly responsible for defending you as you might be from whatever legitimate enemies the country might be facing. Juvenal said it best — quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Translation — if the need arises, who will defend us from those responsible for defending us?) If people like you were to have it your way, the answer to that question would be NO ONE.

One of our Founding Fathers (the quote is attributed to Ben Franklin by some, to Thomas Jefferson by others) that those who are willing to give up their freedom in order to gain security do not deserve and will gain neither one. That sentiment was written with people like you in mind. Let me tell you something, fella…if this country is ever defeated, the odds are much greater that it will be because of people like you allowing this country to gradually disintegrate and degenerate little by little into something which is the exact opposite of that which our Founding Fathers intended and become something which hardly seems worth defending. As I see it, if you’re one of those naive people who believe that the terrorists are attacking us solely because they despise freedom, then you’re practically helping them to destroy us by allowing the government to chip away at the freedoms which you claim you want to preserve! Good grief…don’t you think that the terrorists want you to be afraid of them? If so…why play into their hands? Other countries suffer far more from terrorism than we do, but they also know one thing that you apparently do not — LIFE GOES ON.

“Dark times”? How many of your precious rights have you lost to this “dictator” and how has it affected you directly and in a concrete way?

Comment by Frank M

Good question Frank. Let me think.
The Bill or Rights:
Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Our Administration listens into my conversations without writ or warrant.
I can not peaceably assemble without a permit which can be denied. If I am allowed to assemble, I am forced into a quarantine far away from the leader I wish to petition. http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html .
Even walking to a so called “free speech zone”, I’m subject to illegal detention if I’m perceived to be unfriendly to the views of the Administration and, of course, if I’m wearing black.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/02/AR2007040201568.html
Article 4
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Did I mention that the Government now listens to my phone calls?
The Government can enter my house for a sneak-and-peak.. enter my house and do what ever they want, without telling me.
The government captures all traffic through internet POPs. They are reading my electronic ‘papers’ without warrant. This is explicitly illegal since even warranted searches require affirmation of what and where the search pertains to.
Not long ago, the SCOTUS affirmed that Imminent Domain covers blight. If the government feels that my neighborhood is “blighted”, whatever that specifically means, they can take my property away from me then sell it to Private interests if they can expect greater tax revenues. I’d call that NOT being safe in my home when the government can take my home nearly at will.
Amendment 5
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
If I am deemed an enemy combatant, I can be arrested at home or abroad and detained without indictment, without charges, without due process. Luckily, the courts have so far stated that Bush’s DOJ’s actions were illegal. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061101135.html
This process has already proven to have swept up innocent people, particularly when they were casting a wider net with forigners. We held innocent foreigners even though we KNEW they are innocent. Up until 2006 we held Chinese Muslim refugees scooped up in Afghanistan. They’re not Afgani so we couldn’t send them there. They would be persecuted in China so we couldn’t send them there. We wouldn’t let them into the US so we just didn’t free them for years. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4979466.stm Some world example of law and order we’ve built here.

Oh, and did I mention how low the bar now is for Imminent Domain? You better hope the township doesn’t think they can increase their tax revenues by taking your property.
Amendment 6
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Do I even need to go into this? See above.
If my government just says I’m a terrorist, I can be held forever without every seeing a court. At least that’s the theory of our President.
Amendment 11
The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.
The Terry Schiavo legislation violated Amendment 11. Who’s to say the next law won’t be written to provide for one person over my or your interests?
Amendment 12too long to post, re: electoral process
My vote for president has been stolen by corrupt machinations.
Amendment 14
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I could write a book on this. Most of my comments so far have touched upon section 1 article 14. My liberty and the liberty of countless Americans has been deprived without due process of the law. The President has claimed these rights in Signing Statement.. Signing Statements that have been made during the signing of laws.. statements that contradict the letter of the law in question.

Do I really need to go over every one to make a point?

There was a young God named Mohunkit
He thunk a rock so large he could not chunk it,
He commanded therefore
I have never thunk it

So is it with Bush. When he doesn’t like something he simply declares it not so. If facts, law are too inconvenient they are by him declared away.

let’s just get this over with!!!!!!!

First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

You’ve already been culled from the herd.

Oh, also the Patriot Act has provisions in it which make it a felony to tell anyone that you’ve been searched or arrested during a “terror” related investigation. The FBI agent gets to decide if the investigation is “terror related.”

If you think we are fighting a war for democracy in Iraq, you need to read their constitution. The enitre war is nothing but a distraction. You’ve been duped into believing that very real problem, terrorism, is the biggest threat to you. It’s not – it’s the loss of reason.

“We are at war with christofascists or, if that term offends you, militant christians who intent (sic) to forcefully convert you and everyone else to Christianity or – if you refuse – kill you.”

Flash back to September 13, 2001 — Ann Coulter (darling of the MSM, the Christian Reich, chickenhawks and neocons all) wrote the following words in the National Review:

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren’t punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That’s war. And this is war.”

Frank M — Please explain to us all how Ann’s statement constitutes some form of moral high ground.

It’s always war, war, and more war with you people. Because I didn’t die on 9/11 and because I don’t have a family member in Iraq, you seem to think this doesn’t effect me? What is so urgent is that Bushco is violating every law and the Constitution he swore to: “preserve, protect, and defend.” Just because this particular president believes the Constitution is just a god damned piece of paper doesn’t make it so. It is the basis for our government, and if you children don’t understand that, please go to some nice dictatorship of your choice.

This is my country and the law is on my side. It is my turn to say “Your country–love it or leave it.” Impeachment is the only answer.

What did Iraq and Saddam Hussein have to 9/11?

Frank?