FRC ties Colorado shooting to ’secular media.’
By on Dec 10th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
FRC ties Colorado shooting to ’secular media.’
In its Action Update today, the Family Research Council (FRC) partially cast blame for the tragic shooting at a megachurch in Colorado yesterday on “the secular media.” In the e-mail, which was sent under the name of FRC Action President Tony Perkins, the group says it’s “hard not to draw a line between” the shooting and “hostility” by “some in the secular media toward Christians”:
It is hard not to draw a line between the hostility that is being fomented in our culture from some in the secular media toward Christians and evangelicals in particular and the acts of violence that took place in Colorado yesterday. But I will say no more for now other than that our friends at New Life Church and YWAM are in our thoughts and prayers.
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It had nothing to do with the high concentration of gun-toting religious zealots in the vicinity though.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:03 pmFcking morons
December 10th, 2007 at 9:04 pmthe SECULAR media???!!! ….don’t they mean the neocon corporate, free market, propaganda & pap ridden, monopolistic, no-longer government regulated media?
Actually they’re only talking about TV media because none of their sheep read.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:08 pmtony perkins reminds me of cold_hard_left.
has anyone else noticed that?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:08 pmThere was some news about the maniac hating Christmas or something. It says more about the availabilty of guns more than secularism.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:09 pmAre these guys connected with FaRC in any way? Maybe we should change the acronym.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:11 pmThese people are just as bad as the fundamentalist they are wanting to wage war with. They give religion and Christianity a bad name.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:12 pm8 – when it turns out the shooter was a liberal atheist, i’ll vote for R’s the rest of my life – - will you make the same bet, c_h_l???
heck i’ll even throw in going to church to make things interesting
December 10th, 2007 at 9:22 pmuh-oh! I win. Shooter was a “disgruntled” member, and a heroic security guard, Ms. Assam (gee, isn’t that a Middle Eastern name?) shot him down, thus saving the lives of who-knows-how-many others’ lives.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:26 pmThe fundie definition of hatred of Christians is anytime a heathen fails to be converted or disagrees with a real Christian.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:27 pmironic results for a so-called “culture of life”
how many were killed at the last “YearlyKos” convention?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:27 pmYet another claim to victimhood for American Christians, who face no legal obstacles to worship, whose signature religious events are commemorated as federal holidays, and who at least putatively comprise over eighty percent of the American population. Tell me again how they are being persecuted?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:30 pmYep, a 24 year old home-schooled fundie, shooting up his own.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:31 pmShorter Tony Perkins: Why couldn’t they have shot Ted Haggard…?
These asswipes will, to their dying day, blame anyone and everyone but themselves. The real reason they love Bush so much is because nobody does that better than HE does.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:33 pmMurray, 24, who was home-schooled in what a friend said was a deeply religious Christian household. Murray, the son of a neurologist who is a prominent researcher on multiple sclerosis, did not appear to have a criminal history.
This has nothing to do with secular media.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:35 pmThese frickin’ zealots are making me throw up.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:37 pmNo,no, no X those deeply religious home schooling Christian households they have a television in every room and they are playing something besides Fox.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:37 pmHaHa
Crazy gun enthusiasts on killfests are always pacifist liberals right?
What news is he talking about ?
Fox
CNN
ABC ?
I WISH there was a secular media
And by the way- do you all see how implicit in his criticism of the media–
WHAT HE REALLY WANTS IS A CHRISTIAN MEDIA ?
How scary is THAT ??
CMON
December 10th, 2007 at 9:42 pmNo,no, no X those deeply religious home schooling Christian households they have a television in every room and they are playing something besides Fox.
Comment by j swift — December 10, 2007
Look, I’m a Christian and dont watch TV at all. What are you suggesting they watched?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:42 pmListen up, assnugget: YOU and your most unchristlike brethren – who have corrupted the name, philosophy, and memory of Jesus of Nazereth are the ones who started the war of religious ideologies (not that there is such a thing, in reality).
You claim to be under attack, but this claim is a fabrication. You want conflict, so you play at being hated and persecuted.
Just another fascist ploy.
Take your sillyass on out of here. You’re a trouble maker.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:44 pmFundie on Fundie crime.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:44 pmSecular? WTF is it with these fine, fine Christians and their assault weapons anyway?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:46 pmResponse to the FRC:
Who owns most of the guns in America? Christians .
Who owns & runs most of the media? Christians.
What religion predominates in our prisoners? Christian.
Who is the torture president of America? A spoiled Christian
Who is the torture vice president of America? A scarey Christian
In fact 80% + of our country is Christian.
Ergo: It’s plainly the fault of the Christians.
Why does the FRC feel the need to blame one group or another for an individual’s action? Can’t they just admit that humans are sometimes fallible and crazy, even those raised in Christian households ? The FRC attack on the “secular” world smells like prejudice and hate to me.
Anyway it would be much more logical if they blamed our current Christian governmental leaders who have let us all know that it is ok to kill and torture people. Poor kids don’t have any good role models anymore.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:46 pmI have little doubt that the hatred of Christians promoted by sites like TP bears at least some of the blame for this shooting.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 9:18 pm
Your quite the finger pointer aren’t you? Look in your hand and you will see three pointing back. I see the remarks here about the great spaghetti God in the sky, and if what you say [inanely] is true, he would have seeked out a liberal to go shoot, but that didnt happen now did it. God your irrational.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:47 pmThis Tony Perkins scares me waaaayyy more than the “Psycho” Tony Perkins.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:49 pmHey, did the secular media also make Ted Haggard gay?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:54 pmThey watched their spiritual “Christian” leaders, who bent and twisted the philosophy of Jesus until it was in direct contradiction to what they could read in the Bible (worst day in the history of Christendom was when the masses became literate – hard to lie when everyone has the same instruction manual). When they thought about it enough, the religious leader became a heretic, a pariah, and a tool of the devil, and as such, had to be shot. Christianity. Yeah, right.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:54 pm#20 Look, I’m a Christian and dont watch TV at all. What are you suggesting they watched?
I was being sarcastic. I don’t think this guy, as a home schooled fundamenalist, watched much or anything of the secular media.
Not only that but Tony Perkins may have known about who this guy was and made the statement anyway.
You are right it is not about the secular media it is about tragic deaths and about dishonest Christians.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:56 pmI have little doubt that the hatred of Christians promoted by sites like TP bears at least some of the blame for this shooting.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 9:18 pm
interesting point of view for a satan worshipper like you, chl.
“If you read these far-left websites, you’re a devil worshipper. You are.â€
- bill o’reilly, fox news “the o’reilly factorâ€, 12/07/07
eh?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:56 pmFrom the Rocky Mountain News:
A 24-year-old man embittered after being kicked out of missionary school three years ago carried out Sunday’s deadly rampages in Colorado Springs and Arvada, police said today.
What follows is the Mission Statement of the organization:
Youth With A Mission (YWAM) is an international movement of Christians from many denominations dedicated to presenting Jesus personally to this generation, to mobilizing as many as possible to help in this task, and to the training and equipping of believers for their part in fulfilling the Great Commission. As citizens of God’s kingdom, we are called to love, worship, and obey our Lord, to love and serve His Body, the Church, and to present the whole gospel for the whole person throughout the whole world.
We of Youth With A Mission believe that the Bible is God’s inspired and authoritative word, revealing that Jesus Christ is God’s son; that people are created in God’s image; that He created us to have eternal life through Jesus Christ; that although all people have sinned and come short of God’s glory, God has made salvation possible through the death on the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ; that repentance, faith, love and obedience are fitting responses to God’s initiative of grace towards us; that God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth; and that the Holy Spirit’s power is demonstrated in and through us for the accomplishment of Christ’s last commandment, “…Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15).
December 10th, 2007 at 9:59 pmwell, the Christians own this little dead shit, and his trigger finger. Nice try aiming the blame at the secular anything, once the facts are in.
Murderers For Jesus, what?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:02 pmComment by Saint Augustine — December 10, 2007 @ 9:59 pm
nothing in that mission statement resembles the comments made here by cold_hard_left.
because she is of the devil.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:04 pmwhatever dude – spin youself silly – it’s the zealots who are dangerous – not the non-believers.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:09 pmHere’s the link to the article:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/10/cops-search-arapahoe-home/
Y-WAM issued a statement this afternoon saying Murray did not complete missionary training because program directors “felt that issues with his health made it inappropriate for him to do so.”
Was he too crazy for this group or not crazy enough?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:09 pmThe gunman “hated Christians.†http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/12333551.html
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:09 pm
Well , he was one of them.Probably hated himself for that , too.
And who could blame him …………….
December 10th, 2007 at 10:10 pmI have little doubt that the hatred of Christians promoted by sites like TP bears at least some of the blame for this shooting.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 9:18 pm
I don’t see TP as “hating” Christians. That is too blanket of a statement. I know many progressive Christians who do not like the BushCo.
Do you seriously Jesus would approve of the Bible, The Inquisition, Witch Hunts, Presidents speaking to a Sky God that tells him to pre-emptively attack countries, torture, and lying?
What you are talking about is a deep dislike of phony Christians, and not the Essene-Gnostic that Jesus and Joseph were. Mike Huckabee, GW Bush, Cheney, and Karl Rove are so-called Christians. So you say these people follow Jesus teachings?
And to top it off, most Spiritual people say you Live the Teachings, and not blindly follow gestures and sayings?
How do you live your life according to Jesus’ teachings?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:11 pmI know I would feel so much safer knowing the church I worship at has armed security guards.
/snark
December 10th, 2007 at 10:11 pmJeez, guys – it was a psychotic act by a pscyho.
If you start to say it was home schooling or Christianity or anything else that drove him to it you are no better than the fool who said it was the secular media.
People got killed. It’s a tragedy. No one but the guy with the gun is to blame.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:12 pmdon’t hate’em.
just realistic about the situation
i agree with the Founding Fathers on this issue.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:12 pmBased on what we can see in the anti-Huckabee and anti-Romney posts, most TP posters (like the shooter) hate Christians.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
Which makes plenty of sense , seeing that Romney isn’t a Christian but a Mormon ; and Huckleberry suggested that AIDS infected victims be “isolated” . Something Christian teachings , especially Jesus , would never consider or say , you ignorant religious yo-yo…………
December 10th, 2007 at 10:14 pmBased on what we can see in the anti-Huckabee and anti-Romney posts, most TP posters (like the shooter) hate Christians.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
That is a totally irrational statement. Read my previous post.
If you hated Bill Clinton when he was president, would that make you Un-American?
What does disliking a person have anything to do with their belief system?
Do you think calling yourself a Christian automatically makes you a holy person?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:15 pmHow do you live your life according to Jesus’ teachings?
Comment by Brain From Planet Arous — December 10, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
Armed to the hilt with a hatred of those that refuse to believe in The Way.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:17 pmI know I would feel so much safer knowing the church I worship at has armed security guards.
/snark
Comment by Saint Augustine — December 10, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
A Christian friend of mine and I were talking about the irony of that very thing. But from what I understand, these Mega-Churches have 5 to 6000 people show up for service. That is a huge amount of people. Many rural towns are smaller, and they have security.
I gather the woman guard who shot the shooter is an unpaid volunteer who carries a gun and provides security as an act of ministry.
What a weird freaking world we live in.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:18 pmI have little doubt that the hatred of Christians promoted by sites like TP bears at least some of the blame for this shooting.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 9:18 pm
I’d laugh, but the comment’s just too ugly and stupid.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:18 pmBased on what we can see in the anti-Huckabee and anti-Romney posts, most TP posters (like the shooter) hate Christians.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
you’re a tp poster chl.
“If you read these far-left websites, you’re a devil worshipper. You are.â€
- bill o’reilly, fox news “the o’reilly factorâ€, 12/07/07
eh?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:19 pmSounds like Bill Levinson is mistaking Religion and Politics. Of course a Bible Thumper is going to think that.
Progressives use their minds and creativity more than Conservatives. Conservatives tends to be emotional and fearful, thus creating a Vengeful Sky God, that has the same characteristics as the people who create their particular myth.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:19 pmWWJD? A disturbed man that was not given the mental health care the nation should have provided committed a horrible act of cruelty against his fellow men, and some unutterably awful people have, in the name of religion, turned this into a political spectacle. “Jesus wept.”
December 10th, 2007 at 10:19 pmcold_hard_left, I’ve seen more depth in a puddle than in your thinking.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:19 pmI never said I was a Christian.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
we know you’re not a christian, chl. and so does bill o’reilly.
“If you read these far-left websites, you’re a devil worshipper. You are.â€
- bill o’reilly, fox news “the o’reilly factorâ€, 12/07/07
eh?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:21 pmI never said I was a Christian. But I stand by my statement that Progressives hate Christians. http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/ 2007/ 03/ 02/ the-democratic-left-and-anti-christian-hatred/
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
As I will stand by mine ……..
You’re a goddamn imbecile.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:21 pmcold_hard_left, I’ve seen more depth in a puddle than in your thinking.
Comment by Loonie — December 10, 2007 @ 10:19 pm
A puddle ?
More like in a drop of bug urine……….
December 10th, 2007 at 10:22 pmAs usual, the trolls didn’t read, or comprehend their source material.
If you read this passage:Murray participated in a Youth With a Mission training program 5 years ago but his health barred him from doing field work and going further with the program, YWaM director Peter Warren said at a separate press conference in Arvada.
In the past few weeks, he sent string of messages expressing his discontent about the program to the program and its director, authorities said.
Earlier today, a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity said it appeared Murray “hated Christians.”
http://www.denverpost.com/snowsports/ci_7682958
One could form the opinion that he hated these “Christians” because they ostracized him. There is little doubt that he was clearly disturbed and, it’s possible this tragedy could have been averted with proper care. And, one could make an educated guess that, his condition was worsened by the exclusivity of these particular “Christians”.
It’s apparent they didn’t draw him in, comfort and heal him, or recognize the signs.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:23 pmIt’s people like Tony Perkins who give us Christians a bad name.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:23 pmComment by Keltoi at Night — December 10, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
I’ll bet that the church employes the guards, to protect that which is most valued by that church’s leaders, the offering!
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:24 pmErr.. the title of that article reads: Church shooter wanted to be missionary
And they wouldn’t let him do it so he blows a gasket and goes to shoot them up.
When cold_hard_left pops his cork and goes postal on his fellow members of his White Power militia we will, inevietably, get blamed for it as well!
Something about us being against supremacists too, or some such …
December 10th, 2007 at 10:25 pmProgressives and Christians are old friends, and have been since the days of the Underground Railroad.
Can we take up a collection, and get an American History book for this guy?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:25 pmYou progressives may as well have pulled the trigger yourselves. It’s a good thing there was a Christian guard there to put a hole in your anti-Christian soldier.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
Hey, you hideoulsy empty excuse for a human being…
“The police confirmed at the news conference that Mr. Matthews had been kicked out of the missionary training program.”
One of their own…
Christ Almighty, you’re disgusting.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:26 pmWe don’t hate Christians, we’re just exhausted from dealing w/ the self-serving, delusional blather of freaks like you.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:28 pmCan someone also do a Lexis/Nexis search, and put together a list of Liberal/Atheist murderers, who have victimized the Faithful, over the last few years?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:28 pmCan we take up a collection, and get an American History book for this guy?
Comment by tombaker — December 10, 2007 @ 10:25 pm
It would require the troll to be able to read; good luck with that.
All this creep is here for is to provoke progressives and get some kind of reaction — which translates into attention. If you simply ignore the moron, it eventually will tire of the game and go back to playing Grand Theft Auto.
The constant repetition of “liberals hate Christians” is intended to p!ss people off, so they lash out at the troll — and it gets the attention it apparently never got from Mummy and Daddy.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:28 pm“The police confirmed at the news conference that Mr. Matthews had been kicked out of the missionary training program.â€
One of their own…
Christ Almighty, you’re disgusting.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — December 10, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
ooops, satan worshipping chl ignoring the facts. again.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:29 pmYou progressives may as well have pulled the trigger yourselves. It’s a good thing there was a Christian guard there to put a hole in your anti-Christian soldier.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
You Zealots would love to line up all the gays, feminists, environmentalists, vegetarians, atheists, Anti-war activists, the ACLU, liberals, progressives, Pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, and shoot them all?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:30 pmRev_Dr_David_M_Berman_ThD
Cited by Cold Hard Left
ThD? Bwahahahahahahahhaaahhhhhhaha!
Ha!
December 10th, 2007 at 10:33 pmTo the grownups, who are shocked at the tragedy, and some of the comments here:
Perkins invited this upon all of his kind, by voluntarily politicizing something that was clearly a case of a nutjob-over-the-edge.
Think Progress, nor anyone else, did that. What was reported here was FRC’s p.r. campaign, not anyone else’s.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:37 pmThD? Bwahahahahahahahhaaahhhhhhaha!
Ha!
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 10, 2007 @ 10:33 pm
the devil made him do it.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:38 pmCan someone also do a Lexis/Nexis search, and put together a list of Liberal/Atheist murderers, who have victimized the Faithful, over the last few years?
Comment by tombaker — December 10, 2007 @ 10:28 pm
Wouldn’t want to waste my time swimming in that sewer…I remember right after Columbine reading about one of the killers mockingly asking a girl if she loved Jesus right before putting a bullet between her eyes.
BUT IT DOESN’T MATTER. By definition, insanity defies normal human understanding. It comes in all shapes and sizes. Communism is officially Atheist. Bin Laden is extremely devout – so were the psychos that ran the Inquisition. Crazy is crazy, you can’t attach the actions of a sociopath to the group they spring from. All groups produce them.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:43 pmwingnut thinking: ‘Now if everyone in the school had guns,they could have….
December 10th, 2007 at 10:45 pm72 – Well said.
The freak who did this is just that – a freak.
The sorry excuse for humanity who tries to make a political point out of it? Beyond disgusting.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:46 pmthe devil made him do it.
Comment by joe cantwell — December 10, 2007 @ 10:38 pm
This shooter had some bizarre dichotomy inside of himself, the devil and a god in perpetual war. What happens to some people is their inner conflict such as this manifests in such violent acts. Other, less violent people turn it in on themselves, and become drug addicts and lying presidents. You would think that after thousands of years, humans would live by compassion, art, and science instead of myths and fear.
My wife said that in Catholic School, the nuns would hit your left hand if you tried and use it. I wonder whether it was an unconscious reaction by the nuns to prevent kids from activating the Right Brain Lobe, the center of spacial, progressive, and creative thinking.?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:47 pmAnd I’m not going to do that, until someone like Tony Perkins starts talking about how this is the fault of my “community”.
TP didn’t lead with a “Christians are Killers” headline.
FRC led with a “seculars are to blame” headline, and I, for one, am not going to let that go unanswered.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:48 pmcold_hard_left
You are aware that the site you linked to which claims he “hated Christians” was citing an anonymous source (Who probably made the statement in light of this shooting) and includes a little gem like the shooter having enrolled in a Christian university last year don’t you?
Oh, and the headline? “Church shooter wanted to be missionary”
Hardly spells anti-Christian fervour to me.
Which is to say, reading comprehension isn’t terribly high on your list of skills now is it? But then, I suppose you were home schooled.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:50 pmThe religious right is going to be the downfall of the GOP. I enjoy reminding the republicans I know, just how much of an influence these fanatics have.
They know… I recently heard a remark about “christian fanatics”
from an elderly women who is very well versed in the way of the world.
She is a Christian.
Keep pushing buttons CHL. I love pointing the level headed on “your side” this way.
you’re doing a heck of a job.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:53 pmI wonder if the shooter would have been filled with hate if he had never gone to that church or become involved with Y-WAM?
You have to be carefully taught to hate.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:54 pmKeltoi is assuming a psychotic break, but we don’t know that for a fact. maybe the devil made him do it.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:00 pmMuch as I would love to blame his killing spree on the rise of
Antagonistic Atheism*
At this point it seems that he may have been hearing voices.
Either way I doubt the media is to blame unless he watched alot of fox.
*http://dkosopedia.com/wiki/Antagonistic_Atheism
December 10th, 2007 at 11:01 pm“wingnut thinking: ‘Now if everyone in the school had guns,they could have….”
Comment by wisedup — December 10, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
Which is kinda what Huckabee said to Chris Matthews recently: If more people had guns, the “bad guys” might think twice before trying to mug someone. Jeez, the hospitals would be overflowing with gunshot-wound patients if Huckabee had his way.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:07 pmForgive me for being repetitious but, please identiry where the troll’s article says “seculars, progressives, or libruls,” had anything to do with this.
As usual, the trolls didn’t read, or comprehend their source material.
If you read this passage:Murray participated in a Youth With a Mission training program 5 years ago but his health barred him from doing field work and going further with the program, YWaM director Peter Warren said at a separate press conference in Arvada.
In the past few weeks, he sent string of messages expressing his discontent about the program to the program and its director, authorities said.
Earlier today, a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity said it appeared Murray “hated Christians.â€
http://www.denverpost.com/snowsports/ci_7682958
One could form the opinion that he hated these “Christians†because they ostracized him. There is little doubt that he was clearly disturbed and, it’s possible this tragedy could have been averted with proper care. And, one could make an educated guess that, his condition was worsened by the exclusivity of these particular “Christiansâ€.
It’s apparent they didn’t draw him in, comfort and heal him, or recognize the signs.
Does not the family and community not share some of the blame?
December 10th, 2007 at 11:08 pmHuckabee and his ilk don’t seem to understand that not everyone is qualified to carry a gun.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:11 pmDoes not the family and community not share some of the blame?
Comment by pete — December 10, 2007 @ 11:08 pm
Are you nuts? progressives’ War On Christmas drove him around the bend, so he had to take out some missionaries and a bunch of folks at church. That’ll show us.
Today’s lesson: No matter what faith you are, don’t go to a church that needs an armed security force.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:11 pm4,392 Catholic priests have been accused of molesting children. That’s apparently about 4% of the total population of priests in America.
Not only that, the Church is known for sheltering its pedophile priests by moving them from location to location in order to both avoid the scandal, and seemingly to give the priestly predators access to new and unsuspecting pools of victims.
Note the example of Fr Ramos.
Joseph Ratzinger, the current Pope, in 2001 declared allegations of pedophilia against Catholic priests subject to pontifical secret. Sheltering pedophiles yet again.
I would link you to it but it is in Latin.
So the article you have linked to, would much rather have children getting molested, their molesters getting away with it, and the Catholic Church doing nothing about this serious problem in their ranks, than have the Catholics getting mildly offended by people pointing this problem out – so that, you know, their children don’t end up getting diddled by pervert priests.
It doesn’t actually argue in favour of the Catholic Church so much as it argues in favour of pedophiles thriving within the Catholic Church.
And you guys call the left imoral.
Note that this information is mostly off of wikipedia and easily found right down to source materials.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:15 pmToday’s lesson: No matter what faith you are, don’t go to a church that needs an armed security force.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 10, 2007 @ 11:11 pm
That’s a creed I could get behind. I can’t imagine being taken in by a fraud like Ted Haggard would do one’s self-confidence much good.
BTW, I meant: “Does not the family and community share some of the blame”.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:18 pmThat’s the excuse Cho used to kill all those people at VA Tech. “They” made him do it.
He has no guilt. That’s how sociopaths do things.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:19 pmaccused=/=guilty
December 10th, 2007 at 11:20 pmFRC is irresponsible and extremely foolish. The Police Officer was out of line and irresponsible in his statement as well.
The young man’s rage was directed specifically at Youth With a Mission from which he was ejected. Neither his family nor those who received the hate mail paid much attention to or did not notice Murray’s emotional instability.
I also think the guard was irresponsible in portraying her training and actions as God orchestrating a shoot out at the OK corral type thing rather than a direct consequence of her choice to carry gun and training. People use guns not deities.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:20 pmSpot on, Bruce. This is the same trend of GOP. I bring this up over and over again around the “republican” people I associate w/ and they turn the ole deaf ear.
It’s insane. That- i belive – is the reason most “clear headed” republicans turn their back on it. It’s just too bitter a pill to swallow. The demonization of “liberals” really struck a chord.
fruckin’ fear. fear of the unknown really rallies the “troops”.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:23 pmToday’s lesson: No matter what faith you are, don’t go to a church that needs an armed security force.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 10, 2007 @ 11:11 pm
That’s a creed I could get behind. I can’t imagine being taken in by a fraud like Ted Haggard would do one’s self-confidence much good
Comment by pete — December 10, 2007 @ 11:18 pm
I dunno, guys, even the Amish had a church shooting, though the shooter was not Amish.
The sad truth is, random gun violence is just a fact of life in the US. You never know when your going to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don’t choose to carry a gun around with me because I am not that paranoid and I figure you gotta die of something. But I can understand why people want the right to carry. And it is their Constitutional right.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:37 pmThe kid needed help from a medical professional, and all he could get was help from “spiritual professionals”.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:39 pmAnd it is their Constitutional right.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — December 10, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Well, actually, it isn’t, unless they belong to a well-regulated militia. But I would expect a foreigner to get that wrong; I just don’t understand why American citizens are so stupid. and if you are foolish enough to go to a church that has armed security, then I guess you’re not too bright.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:40 pmI don’t hate Christians, or Muslims, or Jews, or Hindus, or anybody else, for that matter. I simply don’t understand religious devotion, and I tend not to trust those who claim to be the most devoted. As an atheist, I believe that I have much to fear from these people (I seem to be the embodiment of their devil).
I wish I could make them take one step back from their “faith” to take an honest look at what they have been taught (evolution/creationism, for example).
I feel sorry for them because they have missed the point of being here.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:48 pmComment by tombaker — December 10, 2007 @ 11:39 pm
You’re guessing.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:49 pmAnd it is their Constitutional right.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
When dinosaurs roamed the Earth…come on.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:50 pmAnd it is their Constitutional right.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — December 10, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Well, actually, it isn’t, unless they belong to a well-regulated militia. But I would expect a foreigner to get that wrong; I just don’t understand why American citizens are so stupid.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 10, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
Foreigner? Is that a lame insult or factual error?
And I am not getting into a 2nd Amendment debate with you, Lefty. The 2nd is so ambiguously worded and so anachronistic relative to a frontier society of 3 million versus an urban society of 300 million and muzzle loading smoothbores versus modern firearms that you could come to any conclusion about what Patrick Henry and John Adams would say about it in 2007. But the courts have spoken on this issue. Depending on what state you live in, you have a legal right to carry if you jump through certain hoops. And anyone who is going to commit mass murder will find a way to get a gun – no law is going to stop them or they wouldn’t be murdering people in the first place.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:51 pmI feel sorry for them because they have missed the point of being here.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
Nahhh, religion is not the problem at all. The thing is that people try to shape the religion teachings around their own prejudices and fears.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:52 pm98 – As is my right.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:53 pmno law is going to stop them or they wouldn’t be murdering people in the first place.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
As in Canada?
December 10th, 2007 at 11:54 pmAs in Canada?
Comment by Juan C. — December 10, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
forget about it. keltoi is going to spin his wheels no matter what. The Party of personal responsibility, you know.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:57 pmWhen dinosaurs roamed the Earth…come on.
Comment by Juan C. — December 10, 2007 @ 11:50 pm
See my comment at 100.
I am essentially agnostic on this issue – I can see both sides and don’t denigrate either viewpoint. I own lots of guns, but only rifles and shotguns for hunting and the possiblity of something really crappy happening Armageddon-wise. I don’t own handguns as I have children and it just isn’t worth it. I happen to play in the SCA and have swords and clubs stashed around the house for defense.
But when my kids are grown and gone and I am too old to fight anymore? I can totally see buying a pistol and I’ll be glad to have that option to protect my home and my wife.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:57 pm#97 — Well said, Marcus. I’ve known very spiritual people, both clergy and lay people, and none of them was “in your face” about their faith.
Those who proclaim the loudest how important God is to them are, to me, pretty transparently seeking to convince themselves above all. I can and do respect a faith in the Bible or in Christian values. But when their faith seems divorced from the world around them, when they seem to cling to their dogma like a security blanket, that tells me there’s something wrong.
Most truly spiritual people I’ve encountered have used their faith to explore difficult questions. Most religious-but-not-spiritual people seem to use their faith to AVOID difficult questions.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:59 pmhaving guns for defense? Having clubs and swords for defense? Defense from what? Stop paying State Police Offices, if you are going to defend yourself that way.
Now, it’s been some 200 years since the US hasn’t been attacked…so, is getting pretty lame the defense excuse.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:59 pmkeltoi is going to spin his wheels no matter what. The Party of personal responsibility, you know.
Comment by Lefty Patriot
But I guess he is right in the sense that no law is going to stop this kind of tragic events.
Just looking at the TV for 1 hour in the States and you really get all cranky.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:01 amno law is going to stop them or they wouldn’t be murdering people in the first place.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
As in Canada?
Comment by Juan C. — December 10, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
Or as in every totalitarian state in history?
What if the students at Tianamen Square had had guns?
But like Lefty said in 104, nevermind. The thread really isn’t about Gun Control, anyway.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:01 am” it’s been some 200 years since the US hasn’t been attacked…so, is getting pretty lame the defense excuse.”
wtf?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:03 amWhat if the students at Tianamen Square had had guns?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
China would be capitalist, of course…
Come on…
December 11th, 2007 at 12:03 amGee, I wonder why there’s “hostility†by “some in the secular media toward Christiansâ€.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:03 amwtf?
Comment by cd
Can I help you?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:03 amhaving guns for defense? Having clubs and swords for defense? Defense from what? Stop paying State Police Offices, if you are going to defend yourself that way.
Comment by Juan C. — December 10, 2007 @ 11:59 pm
Robbers? Rapists? I don’t have a State Trooper stationed in my living room.
Like I said, I am not paranoid, but some precautions seem reasonable. Your get farther with a kind word and a sword than you do with just a kind word.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:05 amJuan C. are you saying it’s been 200 years since theres been an attack on America?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:06 am“What if the students at Tianamen Square had had guns?”
…pretty sure “tank” beats “gun” – here at least, if not in China.
Gun control proponents will, no doubt, make some hay over this – how could they not? On another note, If the shooter had only a .410 single-shot, instead of an assault rifle, there’d probably be fewer fatalities, too.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:07 amI don’t hate Christians, but I do hate the sanctimonious holier than thou attitude that some “members of the club” sport with such arrogance. A man’s religion is his own business, so don’t try and shove that crazy babble down my throat.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:08 amRobbers? Rapists?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
People with swords at home?
:)
Like I said, I am not paranoid,
Sure…
Well, let’s say I’m against people having guns. Let’s get on topic.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:08 amJuan C. are you saying it’s been 200 years since theres been an attack on America?
Comment by cd
Yes, in American soil.
Pancho Villa and some drunken mexicans in the North Division of the Revolutionary Army back in 1910’s.
Pearl Harbor was a colony. And they have plenty of guns there, btw.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:10 amBased on what we can see in the anti-Huckabee and anti-Romney posts, most TP posters (like the shooter) hate Christians.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 10, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
Seems a crime to even dignify this post with a response, but it prbably hasn’t occurred to CHL that Romney and Huckabee are hardly representative of the Christian daith and “anti-Romney” or “anti-Huckabee” posts are most likely just that: anti-Romney, or anti-Huckabee.
Hillary Clinton is a Christian, so whe CHL bashes Hillary, does that mean CHL hates Christians? Apparently it does, by his own standards.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:11 amChina would be capitalist, of course…
Come on…
Comment by Juan C. — December 11, 2007 @ 12:03 am
Well…I don’t think it is completely off base.
I am not normally a big bumper sticker as wisdom sort, but I remember seeing one that said “The Experts Agree – Gun Control Works!” with pictures of Hitler, Stalin and Mao above the caption, all of whom passed strict gun control legislation.
But I am not a fanatic on the issue. You live/work in Latin America, Juan? Do you think gun control works?
Crap! I AM getting sucked into a 2nd Amendment debate. Anyone pull the rip cord whenever you want….
December 11th, 2007 at 12:11 amKeltoi at Night
A gun isn’t a particularly good defensive weapon. It is a good offensive weapon, but for most people, well you are better off learning martial arts because if that robber has a gun, chances are all your gun is going to do is get you shot.
Okay, the following three groups of non-criminal people should not have guns.
1: Crazy people. This should go without saying, but guys like Cho (History of mental instability) should not have guns. This is the primary point the gun lobby is fighting, because lets face it, a fair chunk of the gun lobby isn’t exactly, well, right in the head. After all, they tried to argue that the Virginia Tech massacre was a strong argument against gun control.
2: Stupid people. These are people who ignore the basic safety rules of owning a gun, and thus end up either hurting themselves, or going to their kid’s funeral, not due to malice, but due to them being too thick to figure out that a gun is a lethal weapon and not a toy.
3: Cowardly people. These are not the guys who live in bad areas and feel justifiably threatened, these are the guys who bought guns shortly after 9/11, because hey a bullet is really going to stop a 747 crashing in their houses. These are the people who just can’t sleep at night without the ability to kill people being close at hand.
There is a certain amount of overlap between all three groups.
Now, I agree the second amendment needs changing. The constitution needs amending to take into account those guys the founding fathers didn’t think of because, hey back then this wasn’t such an issue. This does not mean doing away with the right to bear arms, but rather with the right-to-bear-arms-no matter-what.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:12 amFRC tying this shooting to the “secular media”, whatever that is, are just generalizing out of fear and ignorance. We don’t know what caused this, nor do they, but it certainly wasn’t the secular media.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:12 amQuestion for everyone:
How would this thread have gone so far, had the shooter been a black city kid, and the victims other black city dwellers?
I’m not saying I know, and I’m not offering that up as a loaded question – just think it’s worth considering. How much would it be said the shooter was “product of his environment”, or that all involved were less worthy of our sympathy, or deserving of blame of one kind and another?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:13 amSeems to me that Blackwater working for GOOPers are more likely to take your guns than the inept and politically expedient Dems.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:15 amWhat if the students at Tianamen Square had had guns?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
They would have still been killed, China would still be communist, and the effect of their deaths would have been halved.
Tanks versus guns, tanks win. Trained military personel, versus students, military wins.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:16 am*sigh* Juan
1) Pancho Villa and his army weren’t drunk.
2) North America was in fact attacked by both Japan and Germany + We were lucky enough to capture a number of saboteurs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_North_America_during_World_War_II
3) We were Likely attacked durring WWI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tom_Explosion
4) The WTC has been attacked twice in my life time.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:16 amInteresting question, Tom Baker. If the shooter had been a black city kid shooting up his neighborhood, I doubt that we’d be discussing it, because the media doesn’t seem to care unless it’s a white society under attack.
Were there a lot of posts on this thread that suggested these churchgoers were less than worthy of our sympathy? I certainly don’t feel that way.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:17 amBut I am not a fanatic on the issue. You live/work in Latin America, Juan? Do you think gun control works?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
I live in Mexico…which is a very bad place in the sense of criminality. For example, we have by far the most savage bands of drugdealers in the world, along with the Russian mob, I guess. They own lots of guns, but you know what, they don’t kill civilians, they only kill Police or MIlitary personnel (which we all know they are killing rival drugdealers), so they kill people with guns…and they don’t seem to help them any bit.
Have you been in Mexico city in rush hour? If you had, imagine that and everybody holding guns… (gulp)
December 11th, 2007 at 12:17 amRobbers? Rapists?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
People with swords at home?
:)
Like I said, I am not paranoid,
Sure…
Well, let’s say I’m against people having guns. Let’s get on topic.
Comment by Juan C. — December 11, 2007 @ 12:08
Dude – I am a medieval recreationist – the swords are just really neat costume pieces that I know how to use and have a certain utility for home defense.
As far as on topic goes, agreed. The FRC guy is a jerk. And the shooting is a tragedy.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:18 amaccording to the coverage i’ve been watching this pm, and first-hand testimony of parties to the tragedy, it seems that somehow, god had the guard shoot the shooter and that was good, yet had nothing to do with the shooter being there doing the shooting in the first place, so, it’s awesome that god did that, and that only a few people died for the sake of god getting some solid p.r. today.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:19 am129 – me either Ralph – not what I meant at all, and these people should never have had to endure this event – none of them.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:22 amcd
Okay, Pancho Villa is the last one where an armed populace would have made any real difference.
WWII, you had spy rings infiltrating the nation. Guns didn’t solve that issue, people noticing them did.
WWI, I have yet to see a gun that can disarm a bomb.
And the two WTC attacks, again guns don’t disarm bombs and it would have taken an inordinately large calibre gun to stop those planes hitting the two towers.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:23 amI live in Mexico…which is a very bad place in the sense of criminality.Comment by Juan C. — December 11, 2007 @ 12:17 am
What ARE the gun laws in Mexico? For civilians I mean, not the gangs or police?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:23 ammy point was not about where we do or do not direct our sympathies, but about how we go about the analysis, explanation, and speculation-as-to-the-nature-of these kinds of events when they happen.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:24 am1) Pancho Villa and his army weren’t drunk.
No, they were not. They were pretty good. But I doubt there was a huge rush in Washington.
2) North America was in fact attacked by both Japan and Germany + We were lucky enough to capture a number of saboteurs.
Oh, yeah, and Spain attacked the US by sinking the USS Maine. And
that’s why you had to take Cuba.
http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ Attacks_on_North_America_during_World_War_II
3) We were Likely attacked durring WWI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tom_Explosion
Likely being the operative word. Now, I know it is a secondary discussion, but please, a WW because some guy dies?
4) The WTC has been attacked twice in my life time.
Comment by cd
Sure? Which army? So VA Tech was also attacked by an army named Cho? And this guy that killed members of its church, is also an attack to America?
Please…I don’t want to belittle CRIMINAL ACTS against your country, but those are not WAR ACTS, otherwise you would be still fighting China after bombing their embassy in the old Yugoslavia.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:25 amKeltoi at Night
Swords are over-stated. I like my naval dirk just fine all on its own.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:26 amCd, Bruce beat me to it. I wanted to finish by saying that guns wouldn’t have solved those situations, which is the whole point.
Thanks, Bruce.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:26 ambruce Juan claimed there had not been an attack on American soil in 200 years.
That’s patently false.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:26 amGuns often make a problem worse. But I like mine.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:30 amTanks versus guns, tanks win. Trained military personel, versus students, military wins.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — December 11, 2007 @ 12:16 am
Quick! Someone tell the insurgents in Iraq this so we can just win and get the hell out of there!
December 11th, 2007 at 12:30 amInsurgents are often well trained, often by us. And they are on their own ground.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:33 amWhat ARE the gun laws in Mexico? For civilians I mean, not the gangs or police?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
Great question. First, here we don’t have the ultimate, fancy, super-duper guns you have in your country or all the advertisement invested on them. I have never seen an ad dedicated to a gun. People here spend their money in food and tequila. So there is not a whole subculture of violence and firepower.
You can get a gun in the black market which is easier, but it will be an old, rusty revolver or something like that. Now, if you are a drug dealer, you will get machine guns (AK-47), grenades and bazookas. But people that buy those know how to use them (former military men) and know who are they gonna blow up with those. So civilians spend almost all part of our lives without seeing one gun.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:34 amSwords are over-stated. I like my naval dirk just fine all on its own.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — December 11, 2007 @ 12:26 am
Hey! I like my katana just fine. If someone is foolish enough to invade my home when I’m there, and I can get to the sword before they notice, I’m in great shape. It might take awhile to explain to the police why the guy is missing his head, but still . . .
Of course, I don’t wear the thing to work, so the whole timing issue is somewhat critical. But if the circumstances are just right, I’m ready.
Otherwise, not so much. But still, better than the Ken Onion/Steven Segal knife. Longer.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:34 am“not a whole subculture of violence and firepower”?
lol what horseshit.
g night
December 11th, 2007 at 12:37 amKeltoi at Night
The insurgents include trained military personel from the old regime (A nice little side effect from disbanding the military), people trained in anti-tank warfare going back to the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and guys who had been rebelling against Saddam for years. They are not unfocused university students leading a peaceful protest, they have some idea of what they are doing.
Further, if you look at their tactics they are not going up against tanks directly, but using explosive devices while leading a guerilla war against America’s infantrymen and against each other. If they united America would be suffering much higher casualty rates by a rates, but right now they are more concerned with killing each other, than killing Americans.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:37 amSo civilians spend almost all part of our lives without seeing one gun.
Comment by Juan C. — December 11, 2007 @ 12:34 am
Okay….but CAN you buy a gun? Are there sporting goods stores that sell them? Surely people hunt in Mexico…does the government regulate firearms or do they just throw in the towel like they do on most things?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:39 amHey, Keltoi…I like swords too. I played with them when I was 18 and rolled the dices over the Dungeons and Dragons role playing game. Heh. No, I agree you are not a loony for having those at home.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:39 amgummitch
I once held a museum piece broadsword and it just totally ruined modern swords for me. The weighting is just wrong somehow, the craftsmanship questionable and, well, I would rather stick with my dirk.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:40 amTypo, left out words.
By a rate of thousands.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:42 amNo home should be without tequila.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:42 amComment by Bruce Gorton — December 11, 2007 @ 12:37 am
I gotcha, Bruce. But the point remains, whether you are going up against Jiang Zemins murdering bastards or Pancho Villas raiders, if your choice is a fist or a gun, give me a gun every time.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:43 amViva Che!
December 11th, 2007 at 12:43 amol what horseshit.
g night
Comment by cd
Well, just look at the murders by firepower you have in your country.
does the government regulate firearms or do they just throw in the towel like they do on most things?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
Sorry, forgot that. Yes, there is regulation, I don’t know how strict but, bodyguards are entitled to have guns, but that’s the only case I can mention of civilians having guns legally. Tell you what, police officers almost NEVER use their guns. You know why? Because, they have to buy their own bullets…how’s that? Hehehe.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:43 amI fenced in college. I was pretty good too and played around with several different hand weapons. I’m also a life-long hunter.
I wouldn’t even consider grabbing a knife, sword, shuriken, throwing ax, or spear; in a self defense scenario. I would grab my 12 gauge shotgun, or, a base-ball bat; whichever was closer.
But, that’s just my opinion.
I also think that responsible people should be able to own weapons. I also, also, think that someone was, by definition, irresponsible in the care of this, particular weapon, or, weapons.
There must be a way, to keep most weapons out of the hands of most psychopaths. Largely through a process where existing regulations are enforced.
I think a great place to start would be training by existing police forces. It would provide income and ensure that some of the responsibilities of gun ownership are taught, if not learned. Gun ownership should be, at least, as difficult as earning a drivers license.
If you are really frightened of Them coming to seize your guns; I would assume you have enough ammo to hold them off a good while.
But, that’s just my opinion.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:45 amNo home should be without tequila.
Comment by jb
I’m with you.
Viva Che!
December 11th, 2007 at 12:46 amComment by tombaker
He is a dead man that can’t stop being born. (It’s a song)
Keltoi…hunt what in Mexico?
You can just set up a trap and the animal will come to you.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:48 amActually, cd, the worst attack on America began with the bombardment of on Fort Sumter.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:49 amHey, pete, great post.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:50 amHey! I like my katana just fine. If someone is foolish enough to invade my home when I’m there, and I can get to the sword before they notice, I’m in great shape. It might take awhile to explain to the police why the guy is missing his head, but still . . .
Comment by gummitch — December 11, 2007 @ 12:34 am
You DO play SCA, don’t you Gummitch? Anyone who can instantly come up with obscure points of linguistic history AND has a katana at bedside Must be in the Society. If not, you should check it out. They are mainly liberals, it started in Berkely, after all.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:50 amWe can only wish that the cops in USA had to buy their own bullets. Great Idea, think I’ll bring it up at the next City Council meeting.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:51 ampete
Speaking as a South African, (If you look up our murder statistics you will see why this comes into the discussion.)
Its not about ammo. Its about the following: Hijacker tries to take your car, you reach for your gun, or even if your hands go out of sight, this guy shoots you then and there. He is jumpy, doesn’t want to get shot.
Someone invades your home, generally they are ready to shoot before you are because they pick a time when you are likely off guard and chances are you don’t have your gun on you. You pull a gun, they shoot you, you are dead.
The same is true for a knife, dirk, sword or whatever but at least you go out in style.
Criminals aren’t going to come at you when you are ready for them, and for most people, this means a gun is worse then worthless in a defense situation.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:52 amI’m with Pete right down the line – good post.
And Juan.
I’ve lived in all kinds, and I mean all kinds, of places in my life, and had exactly zero occasions arise that required the exercise of any self-defense of any kind. I’m not a pro linebacker sized dude, either – I’ve just never had anything like that happen to me or mine, and come to think of it, don’t even know anyone who has.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:52 amChe may have been a murdering bastard, but he was our murdering bastard.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:53 amI’ve just never had anything like that happen to me or mine, and come to think of it, don’t even know anyone who has.
Comment by tombaker — December 11, 2007 @ 12:52 am
My experience too….smile and a handshake solves most problems. Maybe a few toe to toe arguments, but that eventually worked too.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:56 amKeltoi…hunt what in Mexico?
You can just set up a trap and the animal will come to you.
Comment by Juan C. — December 11, 2007 @ 12:48 am
Well, I didn’t want to seem ethnocentric…besides, aren’t there deer in the Sierra Madre? I grew up in the Southwest and live in the Northwest now. I am easily the worst hunter in my state.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:56 amOk, Keltoi, first, I would agree hunting just for food. Otherwise it is a really cruel activity, like bullfight, if you ask me.
Then, you need a shotgun to kill a deer? Or a really sophisticated weapon? Nahhh, weapon companies in the US are one of the wealthiest companies in the world, with oil companies. There is huge money there, so they will convice you that rats need to be flamethrown.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:01 amI’m not a pro linebacker sized dude, either -I’ve just never had anything like that happen to me or mine, and come to think of it, don’t even know anyone who has.
Comment by tombaker — December 11, 2007 @ 12:52 am
Well, ironically, that poor kid from the Washington Redskins WAS a professional athlete with a machete, and he died. Guns suck.
You can get more with a kind word and a sword than you can with just a kind word, but I would agree you can get more with a kind word and Tequillia than you can with most anything else.
I think I am going to go put in a Steely Dan CD.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:02 am“I also think that responsible people should be able to own weapons”
Ok, question. Should “responsible” people be subject to psychological evals before owning guns?
December 11th, 2007 at 1:03 amYo cold_hard,
Just in case ya missed a few:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Liberals+hate+Christians%22&btnG=Google+Search
December 11th, 2007 at 1:04 amplay “the caves of altamira” or “the royal scam”, in the interest of pan-american relations.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:05 amWell, I’m from Argentina and we are specially fond of the Che. The oligarchy of Latinamerica will tell you that he was a murdering bastard…when in fact, he met both his parents, he lived with them until he was some 20 y/o. He even invited his mother to Cuba once the revolution was over, and the soldiers made him a meal with some fine steaks. What did he do? He said: Until every man in Cuba can afford this meal we will stick to rice and beans.
That’s why the legend of Che is so powerful, because he was unbreakable in its principles, that’s why took him far from Castro (to Angola and later Bolivia) and why Soviets hated him.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:05 amComment by Keltoi at Night
I think our arguments go along the lines that if somebody wants to shoot you death, he will probably do unless you are Neo. There is a great movie by Wim Wenders which takes the problem of violence: The End of Violence…and bottomline, you have to trust people, there is no way out. Imagine you carry a gun, a guy at the corner of the building stabs you in the back…
December 11th, 2007 at 1:10 amOk, Keltoi, first, I would agree hunting just for food. Otherwise it is a really cruel activity, like bullfight, if you ask me.
Comment by Juan C. — December 11, 2007 @ 1:01 am
I have shot two deer in my life, both with a WW2 issue 30.06, and after gutting the second one I just felt so sorry for it I couldn’t do it anymore. They sure taste good, though. I waterfowl hunt, birds are less mammalian and the hunting experience is more fun than deer hunting, but it is still a very inefficient way of getting food and it has been a few years since I went out. Birds wake up too damn early and seem to think icy water is a nice thing.
I will say this – anyone who thinks hunting is cruel and isn’t a vegetarian is either an imbecile or has never done any research on factory livestock farming. That is some harsh stuff. Damn those animals for tasting so good!
December 11th, 2007 at 1:11 amI’ve never gone to a church that needed armed security guards to keep the worshipers from killing each other. Maybe if Ted Haggard and his conservative followers would practice love and kindness instead of hatred and intolerance, they wouldn’t have to worry about members of their congregation becoming mass murderers.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:13 amThat’s why the legend of Che is so powerful, because he was unbreakable in its principles, that’s why took him far from Castro (to Angola and later Bolivia) and why Soviets hated him.
Comment by Juan C. — December 11, 2007 @ 1:05 am
People will always love Che.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:14 amWhy do animals hate my conscience?
Nite all.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:14 amI will say this – anyone who thinks hunting is cruel and isn’t a vegetarian is either an imbecile or has never done any research on factory livestock farming. That is some harsh stuff. Damn those animals for tasting so good!
Comment by Keltoi at Night — December 11, 2007 @ 1:11 am
Every meat eater ought to kill and dress an animal at least once. It’s not all that much fun, but it is the truth.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:19 amI wish I had visited this thread before CHL slithered away. Then I could have poked the snake with my stick. I’ve seen the viper made a jackass out of himself before, but never like this.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:19 amCHL season is always open.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:21 amThanx for all the kind words. And, jb makes an excellent point.
If I may elaborate, I don’t think one needs the experience of hunting, but a few visits to a slaughter house, or, better yet, some time on a farm; teaches much about the “miracle of life” and the fact of death.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:31 amOur country, US, houses 25% of the worlds prisoners yet we hold only 5% of the worlds population. Think maybe there is a correlation of increased shootings along with the fact we do not care for the mentally ill?
December 11th, 2007 at 1:32 amIn this shooters case, one parent is a neurosurgeon, and I know of a crap load of stories of how these kind of families screw up the kids.
Comment by pete — December 11, 2007 @ 1:31 am
I grew up on a farm until my folks sold out to a “crazy” Californian who was going to grow grapes. Well, our old run down farm, is now a fancy vineyard and winery. I’ve never smashed grapes, but I have been known to try a bit of wine.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:39 amComment by had enough — December 11, 2007 @ 1:32 am
Way too many people in jail. Just another way to keep the workers in line while the real criminals are in charge. Not too many CEOs go to jail, no matter how much money they steal or lives they ruin. You get as much justice as you can afford. Yes, I can see how someone might get mad and frustrated and desperate enough to use violence.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:43 am“I have shot two deer in my life, both with a WW2 issue 30.06, and after gutting the second one I just felt so sorry for it I couldn’t do it anymore.”
My dad had the same experience. It was a bird though. I never felt the urge to hunt and haven’t fished since the people next to me wanted me to extract their hook. It was through the poor thing’s eye. I eat meat but I don’t get the fascination with causing more pain than you need to.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:44 amThere are some interesting details about this story published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune. One point is that the security guard used to be a police officer, so she has had extensive training in the use of firearms in this type of situation, unlike 99.99% of the would be Rambos in the gun nut crowd. More interesting is that the article describes the security guard as “the personal security guard” of Pastor Brady Boyd. Why does the Pastor of a Christian church in America need an armed bodyguard?
December 11th, 2007 at 1:49 amNot too many CEOs go to jail, no matter how much money they steal or lives they ruin. You get as much justice as you can afford. Yes, I can see how someone might get mad and frustrated and desperate enough to use violence.
Comment by jb
Zing!!! A winner.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:49 amEverytime I eat meat, I understand that I am killing an animal. Killing and dressing an animal is not a fascination, it is an act of responsibility, if you are a meat eater. I wish I had the strength to be vegetarian.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:52 amOk, question. Should “responsible†people be subject to psychological evals before owning guns?
Comment by Sabyen91 — December 11, 2007 @ 1:03 am
Possibly, but, the training and licensing, process would weed some out. I’m guessing most really dangerous people will show some signs to a trained observer.
And, it could very well be that whoever purchased these weapons never gave those “what if? questions a thought”. It’s almost certain they were not secured with the simplest of locks.
Can someone “snap” without warning? Yes. However, most similar cases involve someone who has displayed erratic behavior over a period of time. Any, responsible, person around this gentleman probably had reason to believe it was unwise to leave the poor soul with an unsecured weapon.
What if he was literally incapable of keeping his composure for a training course? Heck it wouldn’t even have to be police. But I think trained, licensed, instructors may have managed to get that message across to the purchaser. And if gun ownership were held to that type of standard, it would do no conceivable harm, and may prevent this type of tragedy.
I would be willing to take the chance.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:53 amIt’s not all that much fun, but it is the truth.
Comment by jb — December 11, 2007 @ 1:19 am
I second that.
I also firmly believe that those who start wars – for example, generals, elderly statesmen, and industrial heads – should be forced to fight hand to hand w/ their counterparts – the other side’s generals, statemen, and industrial heads – and the winner should be forced to eat what they kill.
Still think we’d have wars?
December 11th, 2007 at 1:55 amComment by jb
December 11th, 2007 at 1:55 amI think the prison industrial complex is a scam… If we brought back mental health housing as it used to be, our prison population would go down as it should and probably was before Reagan cut mental health.
.
The FRC speaks about itself again. Such a shame that they use Christ’s name as they do. What an intolerant bunch they are. They don’t just believe in Christ, they want to be Him too. And that, they can not, so I call them what they are: EVILgelicals!
Who would Jesus bomb?
May God Bless them. They’ll need it.
.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:56 amWhy does the Pastor of a Christian church in America need an armed bodyguard?
Comment by VerbalKint — December 11, 2007 @ 1:49 am
According to Cold Hardly Left its the liberal Media. I think anybody feeding their own wallet from the misery and fear of others had better have protection.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:56 am“Possibly, but, the training and licensing, process would weed some out.”
No, pete, it doesn’t. There are some crazy mofos that are allowed to carry. Training and licensing just means they are better shots.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:58 am“Can someone “snap†without warning? Yes.”
Of course. And people can snap with warning. Doesn’t mean the guy that trains them to use a gun would actually know the warning signs. And if it was at a gun show, like here, in Wisconsin, nobody cares anyway.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:02 amStill think we’d have wars?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — December 11, 2007 @ 1:55 a
Well at least not the unjust, wars of choice for profit.
Lots of sick people thrown in jail, getting “help” from genuine criminals. Some get turned out on the street and become victims. Compassionate Conservatism my ass.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:02 amBelieving that a old man in the sky with a beard is running the whole show and controlling everything sounds crazy to me. No guns for such crazies.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:05 amLOL, jb. Ain’t that the truth.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:06 amNot too many CEOs go to jail
December 11th, 2007 at 2:09 amI will bet Bernie Ward does.
I am sick about the charges of child porn against him… have been out there in the blogs fighting the perverts trying to slam him.
Every newspaper article I have found states towards the end There is no evidence Bernie intended to use child porn in an exploitative way but downloaded images for journalistic reasons for his book.
A few years back the feds raided his home and found the porn and the charges result from that. His wife is a pediatrician, and if there was a hint of Bernie using child porn she would have connected the dots and divorced him.
Yes, Bernie did illegally obtain a couple of images, broke federal law and I guess it does not matter what the intent was. Just like being caught in possession of drugs… guilty regardless of intent.
With the new Bushco Dept. of Justice, I’m sure Bernie Ward will get a fair trial.
Sarcasm Off.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:12 am“Possibly, but, the training and licensing, process would weed some out.â€
No, pete, it doesn’t. There are some crazy mofos that are allowed to carry. Training and licensing just means they are better shots.
Comment by Sabyen91 — December 11, 2007 @ 1:58 am
I never claimed it would get them all. Some is enough.
And it might increase the sense of responsibility of gun ownership, along with the right. I didn’t intend to imply a gun training course would teach how to identify a sociopath. But a reminder to keep weapons secured, every few years, seems like a decent idea. I’m talking about basic safety for keeping weapons as taught by legitimate schools to new shooters of all ages.
And maybe carry insurance? You can damn well bet “the market” would find a way to decrease shootings if insurance companies were forced to pay like they do for car repairs.
As I said, it’s possible that a simple reminder, face to face, from a certified instructor; could save many lives. Including many “accidental” shootings and hunting “accidents”. And I think it’s worth the “risk” of over regulation.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:13 amguilty regardless of intent.
Comment by had enough — December 11, 2007 @ 2:09 am
I think they would do more good to go after the producers of child porn. Consumers seem to me to be people in need of help.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:15 amPete, they already have those laws. It doesn’t seem to help. Especially with gun shops try to get around the law. Why do you think a guy with the job title of gun safety expert would give one damn about turning someone in for being unstable? And what do you think would happen? I think the guy would still get his gun.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:16 amReminds me of Martha Stewart going to jail for lying to the feds… while others committing real crimes go free. What Bernie did was stupid….but all evidence points to the fact he used it for his book – of which the feds took when they raided his home years ago.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:21 amAccording to Cold Hardly Left its the liberal Media. I think anybody feeding their own wallet from the misery and fear of others had better have protection.
Comment by jb — December 11, 2007 @ 1:56 am
And yet it was one of their own that did the shooting. Did CHL ever acknowldege this fact?
December 11th, 2007 at 2:27 amCompassionate Conservatism my ass.
Comment by jb — December 11, 2007 @ 2:02 am
Yeah, but it makes fer a great sound bite.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:29 amAnd, from what I have seen, all that know Bernie in the Bay area are defending him. Peter B Collins had some words in defense of Bernie – compared this to a witch hunt, editors of newspapers there seem to be defending Bernie….
December 11th, 2007 at 2:29 amComment by Sabyen91 — December 11, 2007 @ 2:16 am
I’m pretty sure that shootings, of all kinds, would decrease if existing purchasing laws were enforced. And “gun shows”, as we know them (I’ve enjoyed many myself and even got a fantastic deal on a Browning BPS. Which sounds scary, but, it’s for Ducks and Pheasant. Not people.) would cease to exist in a perfect world.
Plus, most guns used in crimes are taken from legitimate owners without the trouble of stealing a key, breaking a lock, or handing over cash. If those responsible for locking, or insuring, were held to a higher standard; lives would be saved.
And if one were required to attend a refresher every X years (similar to drivers licenses, and even guns, in some places) lives would be saved. No system is perfect but the existing standard of gun ownership is not acceptable. Better execution of existing policy would almost certainly help.
A few hours, and a small fee, is a small price to pay for the privilege to legally purchase, or possess, firearms and ammunition. And, legitimate owners should perform to some legal standard for securing weapons. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to implement some similar regulation.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:47 amI agree with you totally, pete. I am for reasonable restrictions to firearms. Closing the awful gun show loopholes, forcing gun owners to report stolen guns. Fingerprinting owners. Most crimes are committed not only with stolen guns but most of the time you can’t even track it to the original owner.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:54 amThe shootings this past weekend are a terrible tragedy, both nationally and locally. Here in Colorado, we have been devestated by Columbine several years ago, weekly driveby shooitngs including that of such high profile shootings as that of Solidad O’Brian’s husband, the murder of a beloved Bronco eaarly new year’s day, the death of a 10-year-old girl last week and now the deaths of five at religious institutions (not to mention the less notorious, but nonetheless tragic shootings that occur here day in and day out).
For some ding-bat who doesn’t live her and has little if any knowledge of our community to assert that the “secular media” is to blame is inappropriate posturing at best and just plain idiotic.
People kill people with guns. The guns used in Columbine, Virginia Tech, the Omaha mall and at churches this weekend were weilded by unstable young men who had easy access to guns.
Whether the problem is gun shows, the lobbying power of the NRA, parental or society’s failure is a moot point. The point is that people should not have ready access to firearms . . . .when guns are left wholly unregulated, people who should not have access have ready access and too often, such people are hell bent on shooting innocent citizens. Gun control is neccessary now.
We are badly shaken. Pray for the victims, their families, the family of the shooter, and for America. This trend is gaining momentum. It’s not improving, and blaming the “secular media” may inflame some nutcase evangelicals to action based upon their false sense of persecution . . . but such rhetoric is a politiccal ploy designed to divide Americans, not to solve the problem.
Focus on the Family made a deal with the devil when they united with the NRA to get Republicans elected – you know right to life and all – ironic isn’t it. Sad.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:50 amIsn’t this the same group want to be in your bedroom and Now they want to be at your work,coffee shop,TV next in the bathroom.
December 11th, 2007 at 5:27 amRockyroad…
Thanks for speaking with such clarity and sanity.
December 11th, 2007 at 6:14 amEventually it will come out that some pastor or deacon was banging some wife or some child. The most awful sins seem to lurk just beneath the skin of religious fanatics like this. Of course there will not be a news release from these theocratic white nazi morons (as one commentator above pointed out “Why does the Pastor of a Christian church in America need an armed bodyguard?”) for that, they will sweep it under the rug of recovery and counseling. Pitiful. Pitiful. Pitiful. And an insult to Christians and the religious who actually practice a faith of kindness, love, charity, and foregiveness.
December 11th, 2007 at 6:29 am#210 Rockyroad,
You are making the point simple and clear. I commend you for your words on guns and gun controls.
We are familiar with accusations of this kind ,remember blaming the left & media for war on Christmas.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:07 amIn actuallity is was probably the ambiguity of religion thrust down his throat that caused the shooter’s confusion; great enough to drive him over the edge. At least he took it out on those who drove him to it.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:16 amThe shooter was from an uber-religious family, and home-schooled.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:36 amHe had been “released” from the youth program a few years ago, and was told that his “health” was the reason.
He went to the Youth Mission and asked to spend the night; they refused to allow him, and he opened fire.
Then headed to the bigger church….where they just happened to have ARMED security (?)
I don’t know about the rest of you, but if I were a member of a church–ANY church–who found it necessary to have armed security, I think the obvious tag line would be–”what is wrong here?”
Holy f’in crapola! Hey religious guys — maybe it was God speaking to this psychotic freak. How come when the President hears voices telling him to do things (like invade Iraq), he’s considered holy and righteous, but when a kid hears voices that causes him to shoot up a school or church it’s always the Devil who was talking? The net result is the same — lots of people die. In the case of the President’s “voice” it was thousands. The fact is, people who hear voices are mentally ill and should be treated as sick people, not holy men or demonically possessed. In fact, it is the religious underpinning that often makes people act on the advice of “voices”. All I can say is that God “tells” people to do some pretty twisted things.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:53 amWhat a disgusting thing for FRC to say.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:54 am216…they probably felt there was a threat was from crazed bands of jihadis. Remember the Red State mentality–they live in fear of non-existant sleeper cells that supposedly dwell in small towns across America ready to spring into action at any time. The irony is that it was their irrational fear that probably prevented more people from dying in this incident, while it was their irrational beliefs that caused them to miss the signs of this guy’s instability in the first place. Just pray over a mentally ill individual for awhile and all the bad thoughts will vanish like magic.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:12 amHey, Tony Perkins, this was one of your own that did the killing in Colorado. Home schooled; through the camps; the whole nine yards. Oh, yeah, he was a little wacky too with the hearing voices and all. One thing is certain, this thug did not have a secular bone in his body. Are you hearing voices Tony Perkins? What you are saying is not reality based, on that we can be sure.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:20 amIt is instructive that they will make these claims, shamelessly, with absolutely no evidence to support them.
Given that, why should anyone ever trust what they say?
December 11th, 2007 at 8:24 amIs there a difference between the shootings here in the U.S. and IED’s or car bombsin the Middle East? Are the shootings not acts of terror making the shooters terrorists?
What is wrong with our society that our own people are ready to kill others and themselves? For what? Why, why, why?
The only difference that I see is that here, explosives are not as readily available to the general population, yet.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:30 amIs there a difference between the shootings here in the U.S. and IED’s or car bombsin the Middle East? Are the shootings not acts of terror making the shooters terrorists?
Comment by Saint Augustine — December 11, 2007 @ 8:30 am
It’s the double standard at work. This was labeled a “senseless random incident.” If the shooter was Middle Eastern, it would have been a “terrorist attack.” Even if the end result is exactly the same.
I find it also fascinating that whenever a “senseless random incident” involving people dying by guns occurs, nothing is done to to mitigate the problems, one of which is mentally unstable people having easy access to firearms. Whenever a “terrorist attack” occurs, we go bomb another country somewhere. Go figure.
December 11th, 2007 at 9:08 am225…I rarely agree with you Capt. Man, but on this we’re on the same page. After CNN started running the 911 tapes from Omaha in a continuous loop I got so angry that I sent them a nasty letter stating the same thing. They WANT to be famous–let them rot in obscurity.
December 11th, 2007 at 9:22 amDo we really want to subjugate our society to criminals?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 11, 2007 @ 9:10 am
Unfortunately, captain, our society has been subjugated under the criminal Bush administration for almost 7 years now….
December 11th, 2007 at 9:22 amTo Tony Perkins: I guess “bear no false witness against thy neighbor” does not apply to your Christianity.
To CaptainMantastic: I agree with your view that we as a society should not give these disturbed killers publicity. Would you extend that to internationally to disturbed killers, such as Osama bin Laden for example? Has our country given “terrorists” too much of the publicity and influence that they want by our actions?
December 11th, 2007 at 9:28 amI see this as a testament of what “christians” are in these times.
December 11th, 2007 at 9:38 amHere is a kid that is kept away from outside influences, sheltered from the world until he’s barely an adult–and then rejected by the church. He returned to the only support system he’d ever been exposed to, and was rejected again. How anyone can be surprised that he flipped out under these circumstances is beyond me.
The real horror is that there’s a message in all of this that will likely be overshadowed by Christmas shopping.
This appears to be fundie on fundie violence.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:06 amWhile any violence is abhorrent, and four lives lost are four too many, attempts to lay this at the feet of any population segment other than Xian fundamentalists is just plain dufoid.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 11, 2007 @ 9:25 am
First, don’t blame the press for covering things people want to watch.
Second, this doesn’t come from someone wanting to be famous.
This comes from one sick, strange, lonely, religious kid feeling like his faith has been denied by his church, getting resentful, and getting a gun in a world where his personal hurt had to be someone’s fault, where it just wasn’t fair that he didn’t get to spread his faith, where the church was wrong to deny him, to hurt his precious feelings.
It comes from a culture where he learned from the president of the United States, from the TV punditocracy, from the rightwing cowboy mythology that a gun is the correct, moral and brave answer to being hurt. It comes from years of glorifying fake masculinity, fake morals, fake values, fake courage.
It comes from a religion where the Bible is less a book to read, and more a book to bash others over the head with. Where Christmas is less a celebration, more an excuse to feel victimised because someone wished you a “Happy Holiday.” It comes from a religious culture where feeling victimised is a right to be cherished.
It comes from a political atmosphere where disagreement is tantamount to treason, where not belonging in your group is not belonging anywhere and where all those who disagree are sometimes litterally defined as devil worshippers.
It comes from a very sick, very warped culture of conservatism. It comes from the religious right, and from one wierd child who took their lessons to heart and was broken by them because nothing in his life up to then had prepared him for being rejected by his community and his god.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:20 am99% of these kids are on anti-depressent – the savior of the drug companies. It’s been proven that kids on anti-depressents are more susecptible to violent acts.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:42 ampeople don’t kill guns…
kills don’t gun people…
people, guns kill…
guns people kill…
kill people kill…
oh whatever!
December 11th, 2007 at 12:12 pmokay, i think i got it now!
guns don’t kill people!
religion kills people!
BINGO!
December 11th, 2007 at 12:16 pmThis appears to be fundie on fundie violence.
While any violence is abhorrent, and four lives lost are four too many, attempts to lay this at the feet of any population segment other than Xian fundamentalists is just plain dufoid.
Comment by RUCerious — December 11, 2007 @ 10:06 am
RG> Except that the shooter left this comment (Taken from NBC.COM)
Matthew Murray, who was kicked out of a missionary training center where the first shooting occurred, is believed to have posted the message on a Web site for people who have left evangelical religious groups. His most recent post was Sunday morning in the hours between his attacks in Arvada and Colorado Springs, according to KUSA-TV in Denver, which first reported on the writings.
“You Christians brought this on yourselves,” Murray wrote, according to the station, which did not identify the site. “All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you … as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world.”
Not exactly “fundie on fundie” as you stated. And to blame “Xian fundamentalists” is just the same kind of dufoid.
There always have been disturbed people prone to violence is alll sections of society – no one group has a corner on the nuts.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:33 pmTo #238 – Unfortunately, I work in a pharmaceutical industry and no longer believe that most drugs will solve our problems. There are safe alternative remedies for kids w/”deviant” behavior. I have a brother-in-law who is a fundie/conservative. His wife’s daughter was caught smoking, so they grounded her – no phone, no friends over, can’t go out, etc. etc. hoping she’d learn her “lesson” and give up smoking. When her time was up, she went back to smoking, getting caught again. So, they went out, bought a pack of unfiltered cigs, and made her smoke them ’till she got sick. Even that didn’t stop her. She took up smoking because she couldn’t cope w/her parents strictness. Out of HS, she joined the Navy, got a boyfriend, and is now pregnant. Fortunately, the boyfriend is committed to her. And, no, she’s not violent and not every case ends up this way. But when a parent becomes too strict, kids CAN become this way.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:16 pmBooya to Mr. Perkins for pointing out to us that the shootings in Colorado were more evidence of the vast leftist secular war against evangelicals.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:49 pmmore on the conspiracy
Here’s more:
DENVER – The 24-year-old man who killed four Christians at a missions training camp and megachurch in Colorado was addicted to violence-espousing rock music and was removed from a missions training course after performing a graphic Marilyn Manson song at an otherwise religious Christmas program, according to reports.
National Terror Alert reported a series of posts believed to have been submitted by Matthew Murray, reportedly known online as “nghtmrchld26,” said, “You Christians brought this on yourselves … All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you … as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world.”
The postings, on an online forum for former Pentecostals, have been removed. But other users said the writer had described himself as a former member of YWAM who had been asked not to join a mission trip and now wanted to “blow up and shoot everything I can,” the website said.
“I have found myself in deep trances and other worlds through the usage of this drug and have found my life radically altered and changed and (sic) by it. I found this drug to be a powerful driving force and easy gateway into a world of sex, other drugs, rebellion, homosexuality, alcoholism and many other dark things,” the posting continued. “I have found such an incredible power in this drug that will completely carry one’s mind away into a very real spiritual realm. My mind is completely controlled by this drug and there is no way at all for me to break free.
“What is this mind altering life changing drug that has such an incredible power? Well, one of the main persons who has helped make this drug a powerful force in my life has been Marilyn Manson. … The drug that I use and am addicted to is commonly known in our culture as … Rock Music,” said the posting, among many that were removed, National Terror Alert said.
Remember, this was not written by an active fundie, but by one who pulled out (or was kicked out) from them.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:40 pm