We don’t need a potential president who passes “marriage covenant” laws while he was the Governor of Arkansas. That is too scary for me. We don’t need another “holier than thou” whose reverence for life would surely make a woman’s right to choose disappear but who didn’t have enough reverence for life to keep him from enforcing the death penalty while was Governor. No more idealogical government employees. We’ve got one already and he has made a colossal mess.

Huckabee is a guy is being attacked left and right in the media. Other candidates are trashing him, yet he continues to surge in the polls. The reason being is that there are more Christians in America than there are in any other nation in the world. Did you know that? 85% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. To want to take God out of our Government is Atheism. Nobody is asking for a state church, like the Church of England. But you better believe I want God in my Pledge of Allegence, I want the Ten commandments displayed. I’m fine with not making prayer manditory in schools. But if your going to teach Evolution, your going to teach Creationism.

I am saddened by those that say they are Christians yet can vote for abortion. How can vote for those who want to hide God. Taking God out of Government is just that.

And tombarker, I am sorry to lecture someone whom I never knew existed. Especially since I was supposed to know what your knowledge on all topics is. Get a grip on reality there ol’ buddy!

Comment by bfellow — December 11, 2007 @ 7:49 pm

Other evidence of the influence of Christianity in Early America

From

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2942

America, Christianity, and the Culture War (Part I)

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Original State Constitutions

If the Framers wanted more direct references to Christianity to be left up to the several states, we ought to expect to see the framers of the state constitutions reflecting that intention. And, indeed, they did. Once the Founders declared independence from England, each state commenced to hammer out their respective state constitutions, with the exception of Connecticut which chose to continue to operate under its founding charter until eventually formulating its own state constitution in 1818 (Horton, 1988). If one will take the time to examine the original state constitutions, one will be absolutely overwhelmed by the fact that those framers (many of whom were also involved in working on the federal Constitution), were intimately attached to the God of the Bible and deliberately reflected that attachment in their political pronouncements. The state constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, much of which is believed to be the product of John Adams, provides just one sample. In “Part the First,” the constitution reads:

Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.

Article III. As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily (Constitution of the Commonwealth…, emp. added).

In “Part the Second,” the constitution enumerated the civil officers of the state:

Article I. There shall be a supreme executive magistrate, who shall be styled, The Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts; and whose title shall be—His Excellency.

Article II. The governor shall be chosen [annually]; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless at the time of his election, he shall have been an inhabitant of this commonwealth for seven years next preceding; and unless he shall at the same time, be seised in his own right, of a freehold within the commonwealth of the value of one thousand pounds; and unless he shall declare
himself to be of the Christian religion (Constitution of the Commonwealth…, emp. added).

Further, the “Oath of Office” that was to be taken by anyone who wished to serve as “governor, lieutenant governor, councillor, senator or representative” began with the declaration: “I, A.B., do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth.”
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Excerpts from several state constitution preambles are included in this article and they are quite interesting.

The John Adams referred to is the same John Adams who was the president who signed the Treaty of Tripoli often mentioned on TP. This is the treaty which specifically declared – to Muslim authorities – that the U.S. was not a Christian nation.

From the above quotes it seems obvious that the U.S. was a nation for a Christian people. When I use this phrase, “…a nation for a Christian people,” I don’t mean that all others have to leave, or even that the Christians want to be in charge. I mean that it seems apparent to me that the reason it – the U.S. – has worked as well as it has is because the preponderant influence is from Christianity.

That said, I am proud to be called a liberal, to quote President Kennedy, “If by a ‘Liberal’ they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties — someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a ‘Liberal,’ then I’m proud to say I’m a ‘Liberal.’”

Here is another quote or two for you to think about:

“We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls…. We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.”

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter… For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people…. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.”

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

“We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls…. We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.”

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928

“The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life…. The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed…. It will be the Government’s care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.”

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933

“National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State…. The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men’s spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church…. It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.”

-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election

Yes, history is full of people who have lead their country down the path to doom and ruin because of religious fervor. The article said that “Huckabee wants to ‘take this nation back for Christ.’” I my humble opinion, the true portrait of Mike Huckabee as a radical reactionary and dangerous extremist has yet to be painted.

So bfellow, again, I am saying you may have your God, just let those of us who want something different have that as well, and lets keep our eyes on those who want to take that away from us and force their God on us. If anyone want to live in a theocracy, may I suggest one of the Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia, or Iran?

Good night and good luck!

but if you’d prefer to be hysterical about a “threat” you think you face that does not really exist, and lecture me on topics you know nothing of my knowledge on, then you go right ahead and knock yourself out.

Its people like you who want to strip God from MY life. First its prayer in public places, then ‘under God’ in the pledge of allegiance. Oh but you will put up the tree, pretend that Christmas is about Santa and Rudolf and snow men and acquiring massive amount of credit card debt. Soon you will just spell it X-Mas. So much easier isn’t it. Shorter, nicer, more progressive. Without God there’s no sin. Sure cleans things up. Who likes things like accountability.

Do you know the difference between the Soviets and us back in the good ol’ days? Religion. Banned in the USSR. History is littered with nations who turned away from God. Sorry to offend you dear CofE, but there is a line being drawn. This country is going down the hole. You lefties recognize it. Its what you want. Take from those who work and give to those who don’t. Higher taxes, more entitlements, take a ‘liberal’ approach to the constitution. Open up those borders. Welcome in your poor and huddled masses. Your coming for opportunity at the expense of the American tax payer. But its ok, tax and spend, tax and spend, tax and spend. It will always solve the problem.

Wake up people, congress in the last year had to RAISE the borrowing limit for the nation cause we ran out of debt! An guess who is the biggest consumer of US debt? Its not little Johnny with the US T-bill for Christmas from Grandma and Grandpa. Its China. Why by up all that debt? Cause it is directly connected to our currency. When China is done with us, simply drop it all on the market at once. You think a nuclear attack is bad, how about when your savings are worthless. Massive inflation.

We have an absolute mess on our hands and its OUR fault. CofE, you want to pitch for a godless government, you go right ahead. I’ll be on the other side, exercising my constitutional rights while I still have them.

And no, I’m not a Bush supporter. I’m ready to see him leave too. Lets just not replace him with a socialist!

Upright left did have it right. He was talking about evangelism, not a church take over of our government. Leave it to ‘progressives’ to spin it out of control.

separation of curch and state was a conscious and wise choice made by the Founders, whose beliefs they understood needed to take the back seat to the maintenance of a working government.

if you think intractable infighting between religious splinter groups is a good way to move forward, then, by all means, vote your conscience.

1. The Constitution of the United States of America was penned by the man who was head of the committee which created the final wording. That man, Governor Morris of Pennsylvania, was also the most active member of the Constitutional Convention.

FACT: Morris witnessed two of history’s greatest revolutions, and both had a profound influence on his idea of government. His service as a soldier and as a key member of the Continental Congress during the American Revolution convinced him that a strong central government was needed to preserve and enhance the liberties and boundless opportunities won in the war. As ambassador to Paris during the cataclysmic French Revolution, he came to fear the excesses of power that could be perpetrated in the name of liberty. Influenced by these events, he would later reject what he saw as unjustified assertions of authority by his own government.

2. George Washington, kind of a big figure said, “You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.”

FACT: He was an early supporter of religious toleration and freedom of religion. In 1775, he ordered that his troops not show anti-Catholic sentiments by burning the pope in effigy on Guy Fawkes Night. When hiring workmen for Mount Vernon, he wrote to his agent, “If they be good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa, or Europe; they may be Mohammedans, Jews, or Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists.” In 1790, he wrote a response to a letter from the Touro Synagogue, in which he said that as long as people remain good citizens, their faith does not matter. This was a relief to the Jewish community of the United States, since the Jews had been either expelled from or prejudiced against in many European countries.

3. Ben Franklin said, “History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion…and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.” I think this is what Huckabee is talking about.

FACT: Franklin separated virtue, morality, and faith from organized religion, although he felt that if religion in general grew weaker, morality, virtue, and society in general would also decline. Thus he wrote Thomas Paine, “If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it.” According to David Morgan,[33] Franklin was a proponent of all religions. He prayed to “Powerful Goodness” and referred to God as the “INFINITE.” John Adams noted that Franklin was a mirror in which people saw their own religion: “The Catholics thought him almost a Catholic. The Church of England claimed him as one of them. The Presbyterians thought him half a Presbyterian, and the Friends believed him a wet Quaker.” Whatever else Benjamin Franklin was, concludes Morgan, “he was a true champion of generic religion.” Ben Franklin was noted to be “the spirit of the Enlightenment.”

4. John Quincy Adams said, “The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians.” I’m pretty sure he had something to say about the founding of our nation.

FACT: The Adamses were originally members of Congregational churches in New England. By 1800, all but one Congregationalist church in Boston had Unitarian preachers teaching the strict unity of God, the subordinate nature of Christ, and salvation by character. Adams himself preferred Unitarian preachers, but did attend other churches where there was no satisfactory Congregational one.

And no thank you, I don’t kiss anyone’s ass, to bring that up shows the disrespect you have for other peoples viewpoint.

You see, the problem with being a fanatic, or a extremist, is that you back yourself into a corner, you can no longer engage others in honest dialogue, you can no longer build bridges of trust and value with others. Radicals or extremist cannot allow for any middle ground, because to do so threatens their point of view.

In short, dear bfellow, by telling me to kiss someone’s ass, you show the true colors, one that lacks the basic humanity of Christ, which is very sad indeed. By the way, most Buddhist I know are more Christ like than most Christians I know, why is that?

Comment by Citizen_of_Earth — December 11, 2007 @ 7:39 pm

Wrong, bud. He was talking about evangelism not instituting a govt religion. Get a grip. “Take this nation back for Christ” is a common term among those who those witness. ;)

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1. The Constitution of the United States of America was penned by the man who was head of the committee which created the final wording. That man, Governor Morris of Pennsylvania, was also the most active member of the Constitutional Convention. He spoke 173 times. He also advocated that “education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God.”

2. George Washington, kind of a big figure said, “You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.”

3. Ben Franklin said, “History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion…and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.” I think this is what Huckabee is talking about.

4. John Quincy Adams said, “The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians.” I’m pretty sure he had something to say about the founding of our nation.

5. The Declaration of Independence appeals to God no less than three times. Four to those who can see His Name in the phrase “protection of divine providence”. Five to those who can admit the phrase “created equal” means created by God, not evolved from chaos.

Contrary to what is currently taught at most federal and state schools, Samuel Adams pointed out this strong lesson which is contradicted in courts today: “Before the formation of this Constitution…this Declaration of Independence was received and ratified by all the States in the Union and has NEVER been disannuled.”

The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence declared within it their undying faith towards God for all generations to see and follow.

The Articles of Incorporation call the entity into existence and the By-laws then explain how it will be governed. Therefore the governing of the corporation under its by-laws must always be within the purposes and framework set forth in its Articles. The By-laws may neither nullify nor supersede the Articles. The Constitution neither abolished nor replaced what the Declaration had established; it only provided the specific details of how American government would operate under the principles set forth in the Declaration.

PROOF of the Declaration being attached to the Constitution is found in Article VII .
The Constitution attaches itself to the Declaration by dating itself as being signed in the twelfth year of the independence of the United States of America! Now that proves the founding fathers considered themselves to have been living in the United States of America for twelve years under the government document of the Declaration of Independence. Not only was the Constitution dated in recognition of the Declaration of Independence, also the later government acts were dated from the Independence of the United States of America.

So you see CofE, you have to look at the truth. Picking and choosing only what proves a biased point is ignorance. This country was created by Christians. Just look at what they said. Period.

Again, I give you the exact wording: “Laws of Nature and Nature’s God,” and “their Creator”. This is as far as the Founding Fathers wanted to go; they did not describe a Christian God, period, end of story.

Does a Buddhist have the right to worship their God(’s) in this country? Does a Hindu have the right to worship their God(’s) in this country? Does a person have the right to not worship anything or anyone?

The Founding Fathers set up a clear and distinct wall of separation between a persons faith and the affairs of state and for good reason, they do not belong together.

In Mark 12:17, we find: “And Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were amazed at Him.” The same is found in Luke 20:25, “And He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

I will defend to the death your right to worship as you please and I expect you to defend my right to do the same, I don’t tell you how to worship, so please don’t anyone tell me how I should worship.

“the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”

“all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”

“Laws of Nature and Nature’s God,” and “their Creator” is as far as the Founding Fathers wanted to go; they did not describe a Christian God, period.

Look at the founding fathers, George Washington, Deist, period. Thomas Jefferson, in many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. James Madison, had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments: “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

The final proof that our Founding Fathers DID NOT create a CHRSITIAN NATION is found in a little known document called the “Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary,” most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. Look it up!

Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.

Your attempt to re-write history is really hurting the country, not helping it. If you succeed in bringing about a Christian theocracy; then indeed, we will have ignored the lessons from history.

If we are to continue to be a GREAT nation based on the FREE EXPRESSION of FAITH, and continue to improve ourselves by embracing the DIVERSITY, which made us GREAT, then we must, by all means, resist and refute the Religious Right, our future as a FREE nation depends on the outcome of this struggle against dominionism and theocracy.

Where do you people think this nation will HONESTLY go if we continue down this path???