Comments on: Guantanamo Legal Adviser Refuses To Say Iranians Waterboarding Americans Would Be Torture http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/ Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:32:45 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Swift2001 http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4188525 Swift2001 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:41:49 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4188525 Actually, Graham is relatively sane on this issue. He certainly is an expert. You can certainly disagree with his stance, which tends to jump the rails occasionally so he can be a good party member, but he's not crazy, by which I mean, you can definitely work with him on this issue. Jeff Sessions is the crazy one, spreading the lie that "30 of the detainees have returned to combat," and every other wingnutty shouting point. Graham's conservative, all right. Sessions is a principle-free right-wing nut. Actually, Graham is relatively sane on this issue. He certainly is an expert. You can certainly disagree with his stance, which tends to jump the rails occasionally so he can be a good party member, but he’s not crazy, by which I mean, you can definitely work with him on this issue. Jeff Sessions is the crazy one, spreading the lie that “30 of the detainees have returned to combat,” and every other wingnutty shouting point. Graham’s conservative, all right. Sessions is a principle-free right-wing nut.

]]> By: Tel http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187600 Tel Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:35:26 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187600 If the committee had any guts ... "You're not prepared to answer it? That's unfortunate, General. Because you are going to answer it, and you are going to stay here until you do. Security, remove this man's chair. He will stand, and I mean stand, before this committee until he gives an answer, one way or another, whether such actions as waterboarding and stress positions constitute a violation of the Geneva Conventions." If the committee had any guts …
“You’re not prepared to answer it? That’s unfortunate, General. Because you are going to answer it, and you are going to stay here until you do. Security, remove this man’s chair. He will stand, and I mean stand, before this committee until he gives an answer, one way or another, whether such actions as waterboarding and stress positions constitute a violation of the Geneva Conventions.”

]]> By: Merlin http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187404 Merlin Wed, 12 Dec 2007 06:32:54 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187404 The truly sad thing is the US has a long proven history of being complicit in torture. Going all the way back to the 60s at least in Latin and Central America. What is happening now under W is just pushing the envelope further. It used to be that torture was kept under wraps. Today the neocons openly advocate its use, while employing legal "scholars" like John Yoo who create the illusion of legality for those acts. So now, we have reached the stage where it is not only permissable to torture, (under a bunch of euphamisms,) but it is "necessary" and "good" to "have a national discussion" about the merits of using torture! Truly, black has become white. Just listen to Frank M here to see and understand the minds of those who advocate and justify torture. Max-1 wants to "figure out how you (Frank M) think". I propose that there is no real "thinking" going on. Only acting out emotional fantasies while hoping to overcome some insuffurable inferiority feelings they suffer from. Their "reasons" and "justifications" have nothing to do with thought, other than that which will allow them to do what ever they want without the fear of punishment. That our leaders in the legislature allow this to continue is a tragedy of major proporations. And that includes Democrats as well as republics! The truly sad thing is the US has a long proven history of being complicit in torture. Going all the way back to the 60s at least in Latin and Central America. What is happening now under W is just pushing the envelope further. It used to be that torture was kept under wraps. Today the neocons openly advocate its use, while employing legal “scholars” like John Yoo who create the illusion of legality for those acts.

So now, we have reached the stage where it is not only permissable to torture, (under a bunch of euphamisms,) but it is “necessary” and “good” to “have a national discussion” about the merits of using torture! Truly, black has become white.

Just listen to Frank M here to see and understand the minds of those who advocate and justify torture. Max-1 wants to “figure out how you (Frank M) think”. I propose that there is no real “thinking” going on. Only acting out emotional fantasies while hoping to overcome some insuffurable inferiority feelings they suffer from. Their “reasons” and “justifications” have nothing to do with thought, other than that which will allow them to do what ever they want without the fear of punishment.

That our leaders in the legislature allow this to continue is a tragedy of major proporations. And that includes Democrats as well as republics!

]]> By: Merlin http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187400 Merlin Wed, 12 Dec 2007 06:10:57 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187400 #88 Comment by Max-1 — December 12, 2007 @ 12:34 am <em>WHICH IS IT FRANK? YOU CAN NOT BE AGAINST TORTURE AND BE FOR A LITTLE TORTURE. It’s called being DUPLICITIOUS… It’s called HYPOCRITICAL… It’s called MORONIC…</em> It's called INSANE... #88 Comment by Max-1 — December 12, 2007 @ 12:34 am

WHICH IS IT FRANK?

YOU CAN NOT BE AGAINST TORTURE AND BE FOR A LITTLE TORTURE.

It’s called being DUPLICITIOUS…
It’s called HYPOCRITICAL…
It’s called MORONIC…

It’s called INSANE…

]]> By: Max-1 http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187396 Max-1 Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:34:12 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187396 . <i>#47 Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 3:24 pm</i> Frank, So if it's good enough for them, then it must be good enough for you too. Your definition, your terms. I'm just attempting to figure out how you think. By your logic, our prosecution of Japanese after WWII was a mistake, because a little torture is good enough? Or say the military Court Marshal of U.S. Service men in Vietnam was wrong too, because after all, a little torture is acceptable? WHICH IS IT FRANK? YOU CAN NOT BE AGAINST TORTURE <b>AND</b> BE FOR A LITTLE TORTURE. It's called being DUPLICITIOUS... It's called HYPOCRITICAL... It's called MORONIC... . .

#47 Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 3:24 pm

Frank,

So if it’s good enough for them, then it must be good enough for you too. Your definition, your terms. I’m just attempting to figure out how you think. By your logic, our prosecution of Japanese after WWII was a mistake, because a little torture is good enough? Or say the military Court Marshal of U.S. Service men in Vietnam was wrong too, because after all, a little torture is acceptable?

WHICH IS IT FRANK?

YOU CAN NOT BE AGAINST TORTURE AND BE FOR A LITTLE TORTURE.

It’s called being DUPLICITIOUS…
It’s called HYPOCRITICAL…
It’s called MORONIC…

.

]]> By: nellre http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187393 nellre Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:21:42 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187393 I wonder if Spain and Great Briton torture their prisoners. They've suffered more recent terrorist attacks than we have I wonder if Spain and Great Briton torture their prisoners. They’ve suffered more recent terrorist attacks than we have

]]> By: tombaker http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187389 tombaker Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:09:54 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187389 "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty" - Thomas Jefferson “Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty” – Thomas Jefferson

]]> By: sacopenapa http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187349 sacopenapa Wed, 12 Dec 2007 03:46:14 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187349 Lindsey Graham and the Hypocrisy of the FACISTS STATE OF AMERICA (FORMER USA). When the US waterboard that is "harsh interrogation", but when someone else do to american soldiers, he doesn't have that face to say it is torture! Lindsey Graham is not a human being, he is a rat! WATERBOARD LINDSAY!!!!! THAN ASK THIS COWARD SCUMBAG HOW HE FEELS! Lindsey Graham and the Hypocrisy of the FACISTS STATE OF AMERICA (FORMER USA). When the US waterboard that is “harsh interrogation”, but when someone else do to american soldiers, he doesn’t have that face to say it is torture! Lindsey Graham is not a human being, he is a rat! WATERBOARD LINDSAY!!!!! THAN ASK THIS COWARD SCUMBAG HOW HE FEELS!

]]> By: Dave C http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187195 Dave C Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:22:15 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187195 In order to defend Bush the administration is not only willing to ignore the Geneva Convention as it applies to the dudes they capture, they're willing to go even further & say that the Geneva convention doesn't apply to U.S. soldiers. And Frank defends that. He feels that in order to protect your freedom it is necessary to give a pass to other govts that choose to torture U.S. troops. Because to condemn such torture would mean that the U.S. would have to stop torturing. So it's all good now. The U.S. has officially joined the ranks of terrorist nations. I'd hate to be in the U.S. military. I'm sure when they signed up the soldiers thought that it would be a slam dunk that their country & countrymen would defend the troops the way the troops are defending the country. As it turns out the only person being defended is GWB. In order to defend Bush the administration is not only willing to ignore the Geneva Convention as it applies to the dudes they capture, they’re willing to go even further & say that the Geneva convention doesn’t apply to U.S. soldiers. And Frank defends that. He feels that in order to protect your freedom it is necessary to give a pass to other govts that choose to torture U.S. troops. Because to condemn such torture would mean that the U.S. would have to stop torturing. So it’s all good now. The U.S. has officially joined the ranks of terrorist nations. I’d hate to be in the U.S. military. I’m sure when they signed up the soldiers thought that it would be a slam dunk that their country & countrymen would defend the troops the way the troops are defending the country. As it turns out the only person being defended is GWB.

]]> By: arcticredriver http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4187053 arcticredriver Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:00:30 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4187053 Info about Hartmann not mentioned so far: *Someone above called him a "career soldier". Actually, like Janis Karpinski, he is a reservist. *Concerning what he has to do to get fired -- Do you remember a couple of weeks ago, when Major Geoffrey Groharing, Omar Khadr's prosecutor, claimed the reason he hadn't honored his obligation to inform Khadr's Defense counsel of the existence of a possibly exculpatory witness, was that Hartmann had ORDERED him to keep this evidence secret. * Concerning Hartmann's role -- Colonel Morris Davis, the former Chief Prosecutor had a power struggle with Hartmann. Davis's version was that, as Chief Prosecutor, he should be making decisions about how to allocate the Prosecutions resources; which evidence to use; which cases to bring to trial first. Davis pointed out that as "Legal Advisor", he was supposed to remain IMPARTIAL, and had general oversight authority over both the Prosecution and the Defense. The senior brass backed up Hartmann -- which I think should have proven quite embarrassing to him, when Hartmann's role in burying exculpatory evidence broke. Info about Hartmann not mentioned so far:
*Someone above called him a “career soldier”. Actually, like Janis Karpinski, he is a reservist.

*Concerning what he has to do to get fired — Do you remember a couple of weeks ago, when Major Geoffrey Groharing, Omar Khadr’s prosecutor, claimed the reason he hadn’t honored his obligation to inform Khadr’s Defense counsel of the existence of a possibly exculpatory witness, was that Hartmann had ORDERED him to keep this evidence secret.

* Concerning Hartmann’s role — Colonel Morris Davis, the former Chief Prosecutor had a power struggle with Hartmann. Davis’s version was that, as Chief Prosecutor, he should be making decisions about how to allocate the Prosecutions resources; which evidence to use; which cases to bring to trial first. Davis pointed out that as “Legal Advisor”, he was supposed to remain IMPARTIAL, and had general oversight authority over both the Prosecution and the Defense. The senior brass backed up Hartmann — which I think should have proven quite embarrassing to him, when Hartmann’s role in burying exculpatory evidence broke.

]]> By: sacopenapa http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186971 sacopenapa Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:24:07 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186971 USA=WAR CRIMES! USA=WAR CRIMES!

]]> By: missmolly http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186966 missmolly Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:22:14 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186966 #69: The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike. Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm So a terrorist strike is cause for anarchy -- right? This might explain why we are having so much trouble establishing order and quelling the violence in Iraq. Anybody over there who has lost a member of their family to the violence feels justified in ignoring the "useless" Rule of Law. As for me, I would be mad as h*ll if someone I loved was killed in a terrorist strike. But I would be just as mad if that person was killed for any senseless reason. #69: The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike.

Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm

So a terrorist strike is cause for anarchy — right?

This might explain why we are having so much trouble establishing order and quelling the violence in Iraq. Anybody over there who has lost a member of their family to the violence feels justified in ignoring the “useless” Rule of Law.

As for me, I would be mad as h*ll if someone I loved was killed in a terrorist strike. But I would be just as mad if that person was killed for any senseless reason.

]]> By: missmolly http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186957 missmolly Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:17:41 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186957 #69: The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike. Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm So does this same logic apply if they have been killed by a drunk driver, troubled teen, common crinimal, or any other potential threat? Who the hell are you Charles Bronson Comment by dbadass — December 11, 2007 @ 4:41 pm Now, now -- Frank has probably watched too many movies. His sense of reality is a little skewed. #69: The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike.

Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm

So does this same logic apply if they have been killed by a drunk driver, troubled teen, common crinimal, or any other potential threat? Who the hell are you Charles Bronson

Comment by dbadass — December 11, 2007 @ 4:41 pm

Now, now — Frank has probably watched too many movies. His sense of reality is a little skewed.

]]> By: The Republic of Stupidity http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186886 The Republic of Stupidity Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:54:15 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186886 That makes sense. Comment by Chris L — December 11, 2007 @ 4:20 pm Don't forget... Frankie is proud to be a Fascist. Wasn't Mussolini a Fascist? Il Duce? Mebbe we should start calling Frank "Tha Duch" fer short. Oe just "Douch"... That makes sense.

Comment by Chris L — December 11, 2007 @ 4:20 pm

Don’t forget… Frankie is proud to be a Fascist.

Wasn’t Mussolini a Fascist? Il Duce?

Mebbe we should start calling Frank “Tha Duch” fer short.

Oe just “Douch”…

]]> By: dbadass http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186821 dbadass Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:41:08 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186821 #69: The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike. Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm So does this same logic apply if they have been killed by a drunk driver, troubled teen, common crinimal, or any other potential threat? Who the hell are you Charles Bronson #69: The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike.

Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm

So does this same logic apply if they have been killed by a drunk driver, troubled teen, common crinimal, or any other potential threat? Who the hell are you Charles Bronson

]]> By: J http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186813 J Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:39:55 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186813 "The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike." Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm Survival is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have become terrorists. “The Rule of Law is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have been killed in a terrorist strike.”

Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm

Survival is useless when you, your wife and/or kids have become terrorists.

]]> By: PollM http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186781 PollM Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:31:53 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186781 Have we opened the door to our enemies to torture Americans? <a href="http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1276" rel="nofollow">http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1276</a> . Have we opened the door to our enemies to torture Americans?

http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1276

.

]]> By: judyinnm http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186758 judyinnm Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:25:53 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186758 This guy is the "legal advisor" at Gitmo, who's not prepared to give a legal opinion on what is torture - makes him Exhibit A concerning the effects of torture on those who perpetrate it. This guy has completely lost his moral compass, and his ability to empathize with another human being, including his comrads-in-arms. Maybe he could ask ex-Colonel Morris Davis about it... This guy is the “legal advisor” at Gitmo, who’s not prepared to give a legal opinion on what is torture – makes him Exhibit A concerning the effects of torture on those who perpetrate it. This guy has completely lost his moral compass, and his ability to empathize with another human being, including his comrads-in-arms.

Maybe he could ask ex-Colonel Morris Davis about it…

]]> By: Chris L http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186737 Chris L Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:20:23 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186737 Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm ### So you disagree with our military leaders, but you agree with the Japanese who waterboarded American troops during WWII. That makes sense. Comment by Frank M — December 11, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
###

So you disagree with our military leaders, but you agree with the Japanese who waterboarded American troops during WWII. That makes sense.

]]> By: boreas http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-4186682 boreas Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:05:24 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/graham-waterboarding-iran/#comment-4186682 <em>Comment by VerbalKint: How can this high-ranking representative of our military fail to defend enforcement of the Geneva Conventions on behalf of his own troops?</em> He was ordered not to. Comment by VerbalKint: How can this high-ranking representative of our military fail to defend enforcement of the Geneva Conventions on behalf of his own troops?

He was ordered not to.

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