Sen. Kit Bond: Waterboarding Is Like ‘Swimming’
Sen. Kit Bond: Waterboarding Is Like ‘Swimming’
Yesterday on PBS’s Newshour, host Gwen Ifill asked Sen. Kit Bond (R-MO) whether waterboarding constitutes torture. Bond replied that the technique is actually more like “swimming“:
GWEN IFILL: Do you think that waterboarding, as I described it, constitutes torture?
SEN. KIT BOND: There are different ways of doing it. It’s like swimming, freestyle, backstroke. The waterboarding could be used almost to define some of the techniques that our trainees are put through, but that’s beside the point. It’s not being used.
Watch it:
Conservatives have repeatedly tried to dismiss the seriousness of waterboarding, referring to it as a “swim lesson.”
There’s no doubt that waterboarding is torture. There’s also no question that it’s been carried out on detainees. Former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou came out this week and confirmed that in 2002, al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded on orders from the White House.
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Now THAT'S stupdity in action!
Missouri must be very proud of this man.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:04 amFor Bond, thinking is like drooling.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:07 amConservatives are delusional.
They liken waterboarding to doing the backstroke, yet if someone says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" it's a War on Christmas.
Unfortunately Americans are stupid enough to believe whatever they say....
December 12th, 2007 at 11:08 amSEN. KIT BOND: There are different ways of doing it. It’s like swimming, freestyle, backstroke.
Is Agent '00 Bond talking about his & Foley's sexual activity here?
It sure doesn't sound like a torture discussion.
I submit that he's from Missouri, so let's SHOW HIM waterborading. After 30 seconds of drowning, you damn betcha' he'll be backstroking!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:09 amTP can do better.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 11:06 am
Unfortunately, you can't. The 'point' you think you're making is ridiculous, just like Kit Bond's statment. No, they didn't take him out of context. It was an exact quote.
NEXT!!!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:09 amNow I get what "swimming with the fishes" means... thanks Bond! Swimming, my ass! What is it, exercise?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:11 amWaterboarding is torture, but more appropriately it is terrorism.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:12 am"I loves to go waterboardin' with bowlegged wimmen..."
December 12th, 2007 at 11:14 am'SEN. KIT BOND: There are different ways of doing it. It's like swimming, freestyle, backstroke.'
You could, for example, hold their head under water face first, or you could slam their head back and hold them underwater upside down or you could just freestyle and do your own thing, come up with your own twist, if you will.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:15 amAll those years I spent studying German history, language, and the rise and fall of fascism in the early 20th century are going to good use now.
I refer to that knowledge base as I look around at my America and what it has become in my lifetime in the past seven years, and I know what it was like in Germany after 1932.
I look at the infiltration of political operatives into all branches of government and I know what it was like under Stalin and the rule of the appartchiks.
I expect the gulag being built by Halliburton purportedly for detaining illegal immigrants will be a might convenient place to house those declared enemies of the state for their political convictions when the time comes.
These people are totally, f&*(&(& EVIL. They appear to have no moral compass, no ethics, and their claim to represent Christianity soils the very name of Christ.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:15 amIf a Democratic administration had used waterboarding, there would be no debate about whether it was torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:15 amLet's give this old codger a few "swimming lessons" to test it out, shall we?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:15 amDoes this mean that Senator Bond considers waterboarding American POWs acceptable?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:16 amthe reality is there actually is plenty of doubt that waterboarding, as practiced by the United States, is torture.
- - Yes, it wasn't torture when the Nazis, the Japanese, and the Khmer Rhouge used it either.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:16 amHeartandliberal: This must seem like deja vu for you?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:16 amFormer CIA interrogator John Kiriakou came out this week and confirmed that in 2002, al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded
Kiriakou also said that the technique was effective in making Zubaydah break down and start talking which contributed to stopping several attacks.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:17 amUnfortunately for the far-left, the reality is there actually is plenty of doubt that waterboarding, as practiced by the United States, is torture.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 11:12 am
Tell that to the courts that ruled against the Japanese after WWII, Bigfoot. It was clearly defined as torture and that definition was used to convict war criminals. Your continued attempts to pretend otherwise fly in the face of, literally, centuries of its use as torture, all the way back to the Inquisition.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:17 am#15 This is the critical question here. As well it is the "golden rule" - Do unto others....
If this country is ready to have our own POW's waterboarded then so be it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:18 amHow is today's waterboarding specifically different from the waterboarding that has been prosecuted as a war crime in the past?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:18 amBond also used a phrase I'd not heard before; "al Qaida KINGPINS".
This is fear-mongering at its worst. These people really are slime.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:18 amKit Bond shouldn't be so flippant. The Insurgency runs deep in mighty MO. http://www.tshirtinsurgency.com
December 12th, 2007 at 11:18 amOK, let's waterboard that delusional son of a b*tch - and we'll just see how much fun it is.
Jesus H. Christ, I hate these people.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:19 amI expect the gulag being built by Halliburton purportedly for detaining illegal immigrants will be a might convenient place to house those declared enemies of the state for their political convictions when the time comes.
No such facility exists.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:19 am"My name is Bond, Kit Bond, and I'll take my kool-aid shaken, not stirred. I'll also take Dana Perino shaken as I'm sure I couldn't stir her. Tell me, Q, who gets swimming lessons today?"
December 12th, 2007 at 11:20 amThe Republican Administration has said it is not torture, the Democrat Congress has refused to condemn the practice as torture, and Mainstream America has refused to force Congress to acknowledge it as torture. -Oh, Bigmouth
The Geneva Convention called it torture. John McCain calls it torture. The US Army calls it torture.
And since when does the 'mainstream media' force congress to do anything? Which Constitution are you pretending to follow?
Suggestion: Try waterboarding. If you need assistance, we're here. Tomorrow, you can tell all of us if waterboarding felt like torture or not.
Deal?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:20 amI would think that anything that simulates drowning, regardless of the technique used, is undoubtedly and unequivocally TORTURE. No sense parsing words or playing semantics - simulated drowning is torture, just other simulated death scenarios constitute torture. There is NO WAY this is not torture and if the Dems were doing it, the reichwing pigs would be calling it torture. Time to get rottingly corrupt Bush and GOP politics out of everything in this country.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:20 amOur fictional friend, "O. Bigfoot" has now arrived to plant doubt.
How predictable.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:20 amIsn't this the same Republican Senator who said that lynching African Americans was like giving them a massage?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:20 amBigmouth: Zim's got it right. Everyone calls it torture and the army field manual calls it torture. And we don't even have to get into the Geneva Conventions because it's highly illegal in this country alone.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:21 amPushing Forward the Torture Agenda
The US administration is pushing forward in its attempts to make torture acceptable. Yesterday, John Kiriakou, a retired CIA agent, received widespread coverage when admitting that water-boarding was probably torture, and then went on to defend its use.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
December 12th, 2007 at 11:21 amComment by Peter C — December 12, 2007 @ 11:18 am
It's getting to the point of "fear porn". Gets them all titillated.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:21 amKit bon is right. Were actually doing terrorist bums a favor by lighter treatment.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:21 amPeterC: The only thing our hoof in mouth Bigfoot does is plant sheer stupidity, bigotry, and nonsense.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:21 amThe ACLU is in the midst of a legal challenge calling for the release of three documents issued by the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) that are believed to have authorized the CIA to use extremely harsh interrogation methods. The memos, which were written in May of 2005, were not included in the government's response to the ACLU's Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for all documents pertaining to the treatment and interrogation of detainees in U.S. custody. The government also withheld the documents from key senators during a congressional inquiry.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:22 amI just hope there is enough public money in Missouri to put Bond in a padded cell for the rest of his life.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:22 amThere is NO WAY this is not torture and if the Dems were doing it, the reichwing pigs would be calling it torture.
Which makes one wonder why the practice wasn't outlawed under previous democrat administrations, or the current dem-controlled houses.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:22 amHow is letting "terrorists" go for a swim going to get any information from them?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:23 amGWEN IFILL: Do you think...
December 12th, 2007 at 11:23 amTo paraphrase Shaldag: No such faculty exists.
What is crystal clear is that the only reason the evidence was destroyed and we're even having this discussion is to get GWBush's sad a$$ off the hook for okaying torture techniques.
What this entire administration and Congress is embroiled in currently has to do with keeping Bush out of one of our own prisons and to keep him from realizing the same fate as Hussein by the International tribunal at the Hague.
This guy is toxic through and through. We're throwing good money after bad when we spend taxpayer money to cover Bush's sad butt and keep him out of prison.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:24 amOnly one thing unites Iraq: hatred of the US
Good job there Mr Bush / sarc
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article3241904.ece
December 12th, 2007 at 11:24 amWhere was Sen Bond when President Clinton was around.
Clinton could have used this defense: "BJ's aren't sex. There are different ways of doing it. Its like dry humping or masturbation. Of course Republicans wouldn't know that there are different ways of having sex, but trust me - there are"
December 12th, 2007 at 11:24 amRemember: This is the same man who blew up innocent frogs for sheer pleasure.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:24 amFormer CIA interrogator John Kiriakou came out this week and confirmed that in 2002, al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded
Kiriakou also said that the technique was effective in making Zubaydah break down and start talking which contributed to stopping several attacks.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:17 am
The only problem was that by the time that Zubaydah was actually 'interrogated', Kiriakou had been reassigned and has no direct knowledge of what actually happened when Zubaydah was tortured. CIA interrogators who were there say that none of the information gained could not have been gained through more traditional methods.
All I have to say to those who say that waterboarding isn't torture... when one of our brave soldiers is subjected to the same treatment, then you cannot scream about the inhumanity of the other side.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:25 am#42 Did you see the part where the head of Iraqi Parliament has rejected Bush's wet dream of having a permanent military base in Iraq?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:25 amIt ain't gonna happen.
There is NO WAY this is not torture and if the Dems were doing it, the reichwing pigs would be calling it torture.
Which makes one wonder why the practice wasn’t outlawed under previous democrat administrations, or the current dem-controlled houses.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:22 am
There is this thing called the Geneva Convention that the US signed that did exactly that. Geneva, it's a city in Switzerland, I've been there it does exist. Trash like you who have never even left the country and think a passport is a bad thing may not understand that.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:25 amsince he has volunteered for torture, and thinks it is "good", can't we accommodate him? He needs to understand it first hand. Cowards need not apply.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:26 amWhat's it going to be sissy?
Is this not torture?http://i.current.com/swf/barca/vm2_embed.swf?vid=http://v.current.com/video/feeds/pods/20060922_Waterboarding.flv&img=http://i.current.com/images/epg/controversy/waterboard/1_400x300.jpg&tit=Getting%20Waterboarded&top=&h=http://current.com&i=76347282&p=http://current.com/items/76347282_getting_waterboarded&s=1
December 12th, 2007 at 11:26 amget that man some "SWIMMING LESSONS" for christmas.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:27 amRaynman: Thanks for clarifying the fact that this possible "Bush frontman" yesterday has no credibility or knowledge of the facts whatsoever and was probably put out there to do some damage control.
At this point, the only way to even get the ear of americans is to do a "mixed bag" style of damage control. Condemn the obvious and then plant some seed of doubt. Initially, this guy looked like a real whistleblower; now he's looking just like another Bush propaganda tool.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:27 amLet's see how well Bondo backstrokes with his hands and feet restrained.
Watta tool!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:27 amBond is another TRAITOR to the USA like MURDERER Bush the COXUCKER punk TRAITOR.
God SEES the EVIL done by people like Bush, Cheney and Bond.
And calling yourself "christian" doesn't protect you from the WRATH of God, as he KNOWS these people are EVIL and they will BURN!!
For ETERNITY!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 12th, 2007 at 11:27 am#8 - "Except for those who use the issue as a rallying cry for continued hatred of the United States." Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 11:12 am
We don't bame you for your hatred of the US, we just wish you would follow the principles of our founding fathers, and refuse to support torture in any form. When you support the tactics of our enemies by torturing people, you become like the enemy.
I'll keep you in my prayers.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:28 amWhich makes one wonder why the practice wasn’t outlawed under previous democrat administrations, or the current dem-controlled houses.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:22 am
Simple. Torture is defined under the Torture Convention as:
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
Hence the reason why waterboarding has never been specifically proscribed in law as torture is because it is BLEEDING FCUKING OBVIOUS from the treaty definition that it is torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:28 amIf the CIA Hadn't Destroyed Those Tapes, What Would Be Different?
Kevin Drum started asking the questions we are posing over the weekend. He pointed out that the tapes would have revealed "not just that we had brutally tortured an al-Qaeda operative, but that we had brutally tortured an al-Qaeda operative who was (a) unimportant and low-ranking, (b) mentally unstable, (c) had no useful information, and (d) eventually spewed out an endless series of worthless, fantastical 'confessions' under duress." Those confessions, and others like them, have been the underpinning for much of the government's legal assault on the rule of law in recent years, from free and open trials, to secret expansions of executive powers. Certainly Drum is speculating, just like we are. It's impossible to say for sure what the tapes would have revealed, much less how such revelations might have changed all these recent events. But it's worth trying to refit the pieces, because this evidence was deliberately obliterated. Otherwise, the CIA's act of destruction wins.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:29 amBush knows that at this point one of his plants has to look like a real whistleblower in order to engage the public. He lost credibility when he tried to spin waterboarding and gaining good intel using it when we know that isn't true. By the end of his circuit of talk shows yesterday, this guy's motive was clear: protection of the preznut's hind end.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:29 ampatooty, it's not really simulated drowning.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:30 amregardless whether you're in a body of water, you're still filling a person's lungs with water, which is what drowning is. And what waterboarding is. It's just like suffocating someone but then taking your hand away just in time.
Bush & His CIA = Clear Obstruction of Justice
December 12th, 2007 at 11:30 amTorture is illegal. Waterboarding is torture. What part of illegal do GOOPers fail to understand?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:31 amEvery time a Republican opens his mouth he just proves what thugs they are. The degeneracy of the people in the Republican Party continues to astound.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:31 amwhen one of our brave soldiers is subjected to the same treatment, then you cannot scream about the inhumanity of the other side.
Comment by raynman — December 12, 2007 @ 11:25 am
They will, repeatedly. All the while leaving out the small detail that they condoned it at this time.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:32 amWilco: Suffocating is even worse. It's heinous and criminal no matter how you dice it. Of course, if Mukasey or Congress upholds our own laws regarding waterboarding, Bush will enjoy his retirement in a prison cell - which everyone knows. This is the only reason for this discussion at this time - before he leaves office because he knows that when a dem president takes office, he will find himself standing before a jury.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:32 amWho would beg to confess while swimming the back stroke?
The purpose of torture is not just for the pleasure of sadists, it is to illicit information by force.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:33 amIf the victim is begging to confess, the activity is torture.
It's the whole point of these "harsh" techniques... forced confessions.
And we know from decades of study that forced confessions have little or no value. The victim of torture/harsh techniques will lie to get relief.
"Kiriakou also said that the technique was effective in making Zubaydah break down and start talking which contributed to stopping several attacks."
According to Kiriakou, everything was very closely monitored and approved up the chain of command. The president absolutely knew and approved of the waterboarding. President Bush personally authorized the torture of a prisoner, via the Deputy Director for Operations of the CIA. So, despite Bush's protestations, he has lied to the world.
Kiriakou, in contrast with Ron Suskind's reporting, says that the information Zubayhdah gave was legit and confirmed from other sources. But it is interesting that Zubaydah ascribed his decision to cooperate to a dream where Allah gave him permission to talk. I have no doubt it was related to the breakdown caused by waterboarding, but with religious fanatics, a religious sanction is also necessary. Torture alone was not enough.
The nature of the attacks that Kiriakou says the CIA foiled because of torture was not cataclysmic. It was not the nuclear ticking time-bomb. It was more operational information, and in so far as some attacks were, according to Kiriakou, foiled, they weren't on US soil. They were overseas.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:33 am#62 Once people engage in criminal activity, it only grows exponentially downward - never upward until they are stopped or caught or brought to justice.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:33 am“There’s no doubt that waterboarding is torture.â€
Quite untrue.
Unfortunately for the far-left, the reality is there actually is plenty of doubt that waterboarding, as practiced by the United States, is torture.
The Republican Administration has said it is not torture, the Democrat Congress has refused to condemn the practice as torture, and Mainstream America has refused to force Congress to acknowledge it as torture.
And as the Iraq situation continues to improve, and the action there fades from the forefront of American consciousness, the issue of waterboarding will become even more miniscule than it has been so far.
Except for those who use the issue as a rallying cry for continued hatred of the United States.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 11:12 am
Do you think anyone here actually believes or wants to hear your convoluted "facts." You represent 24% of Americans, not a majority. You are just gutter white trash, go back to your meth lab.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:34 ambadmoon: Yes, Kirikou certainly indicted Bush which is why this new tact of redefining torture. Thank goodness for the evidence we have of Bush's incessant protestations "We don't torture" "The united states doesn't torture" because he'll be eating these lies one day soon.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:35 amwhen one of our brave soldiers is subjected to the same treatment, then you cannot scream about the inhumanity of the other side.
Comment by raynman — December 12, 2007 @ 11:25 am
The administration/pentagon apologists that come here do not seem to have much of a long view (except in forseeing their 'Long War' - for some reason they can see neverending war in the future just fine).
They (the current admin/pentagon) have set precedent after precedent regarding presidential powers, lack of accountability to Congress and by extension the citizens, disdain for the rules of law and now this whole waterboarding thing which, as the apologists well know, this country has prosecuted as torture in the past.
Now the next president will be able to do whatever they want, without having to explain a thing (explain truthfully anyway) and if U.S. personnel are subjected to torture they will have lost the right to say that it's wrong, let alone prosecute anyone for doing it.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:35 amThere is this thing called the Geneva Convention that the US signed that did exactly that. Geneva, it’s a city in Switzerland, I’ve been there it does exist. Trash like you who have never even left the country and think a passport is a bad thing may not understand that.
The GC applies to prisoners of war, it does not cover terrorists who do not fit the parameters of the 3rd GC convention.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:37 amI think this: For the Bush administration to put this guy out there as a whistleblower it must be that they've already caved knowing that Rummy and Bush were involved in permitting waterboarding. Even public statements have been made regarding the use of this form of torture. This is why Kerikou felt comfy making his statements about the use of waterboarding.
Now the problem will be for Bush to find a way to parse waterboarding into several types - some downright torture and some not as bad.
This is what Bush is counting on to keep his butt out of prison for war crimes.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:37 am24% support, TV show "24", 24 x 3 (Christian Trinity) = 72 the same number of virgins promised by the Muslim extremists
Coincidence? I think not.
/snark off (I think)
December 12th, 2007 at 11:37 amAccording to our trolls, we should exhume the bodies of the Japanese officers we executed for these war crimes and Bush can give them Freedom medals.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:38 amEverybody involved with waterboarding, including officers, approving politicians of any party and administration officials in positions of responsibility need to be taken to trial and held accountable. Should be jail time. How low has our once mighty nation sunk?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:39 amAnd the far-left’s continued attempts to ignore the differences in waterboarding procedures, and refusal to accept the truth that as practice by the United States, waterboarding is not torture, only further proves the far-left’s willingness to coddle terrorists and stymie the war against a real enemy that has repeated attacked the United States and has definately cost U.S. lives.
The continued belief that the U.S. government is a bigger enemy than those who actually have attacked us puts the far-left squarely on the side of the terrorists who unabashedly proclaim: “Death to the U.S.A.â€, and also firmly in the camp of those terrorists who have actually taken American lives and those of our allies.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 11:34 am
As someone who lives in New York City and knows too many people who did die at the hands of terrorists, your position supports them. You are a terrorist supporter. You are un-American and a supporter of those who murder Americans. To advocate treason. Why do you hate the US and want to see its citizens killed? Seriously, take your I support the fight against terrorists stance, you do the opposite, and shove it.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:39 amBush is already indicted regarding his approval of waterboarding which is against our laws and against international law. Now he's trying to find definitions of types of waterboarding which may or may not be considered "illegal". This is the MO of Bush's entire presidency.
When asked a question which is not specific right down to the splitting of a hair, he turns it around so as not to appear that he's lying (which he is) by confusing the issue or trying to introduce another meaning to the word in question. This is TYPICAL BUSHIE MO!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:39 amHow can any nation in the planet vote for these guys like him ??? nobody but the Americans
They should be thrown from office straight away
December 12th, 2007 at 11:40 amThe GC applies to prisoners of war, it does not cover persons handed over to the US by Afghans and Pakistanis for bounties, regardless of their circum...wait...
December 12th, 2007 at 11:40 amReality and neocons are two non-intersecting sets.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:40 amAnd the far-left’s continued attempts to ignore the differences in waterboarding procedures, and refusal to accept the truth that as practice by the United States, waterboarding is not torture, only further proves the far-left’s willingness to coddle terrorists and stymie the war against a real enemy that has repeated attacked the United States and has definately cost U.S. lives.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 11:34 am
Please define how WaterboardingUSA is not torture, as opposed to WaterboardingNippon. Drowning is drowning and your refusal to accept the truth proves the far-right's willingness to coddle authoritarians and fear-mongerers who are trying to subvert democracy right here in the United States.
You're pulling this stuff right out of your butt, Bigfoot. Waterboarding is drowning and it is torture, whether it's being done by the Inquisition or the CIA.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:40 amExcept for those who use the issue as a rallying cry for continued hatred of the United States.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 11:12 am
So waterboarding isn't torture. I guess you like keeping company w/ the Inquisition, the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese, and Khmer Rouge.
Nice friends.
And nice Jingle Ballsâ„¢, BTW. They go really well w/ the candy-cane striped codpiece and matching tights, and the vinyl short shorts and curly toed elf shoes. Somebody, get a picture before he sobers up.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:40 amAll our spineless congress needs to do right now is state that a new resolution is unnecessary since waterboarding is considered torture according to our rule of law and the Geneva Conventions - end of discussion and end of story.
There's no good reason for them to even be considering a resolution at this point.
It's like all of the illegal immigrant resolutions - JUST UPHOLD THE DAMN LAWS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE, MORONS!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:41 amThe nature of the attacks that Kiriakou says the CIA foiled because of torture was not cataclysmic. It was not the nuclear ticking time-bomb. It was more operational information, and in so far as some attacks were, according to Kiriakou, foiled, they weren’t on US soil. They were overseas.
Yet the victims of those attacks would be just as dead, even though the attacks occurred overseas. Someday it might be a "nuclear ticking time-bomb" and then no one except the most strident will give a hoot what was done to gain the information.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:41 amThose that continue to support the use or torture such as waterboarding are advertising their own weakness. A strong country can abstain from torture and can afford to obey the law.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:42 amjb: "How low has our mighty nation sunk"?? We're off the charts right now in terms of a new national NADIR! Bush has gutted this country from the inside out and when he leaves office we will also find that he's raided the treasury to boot. God only knows what horrible criminal acts this man is responsible for - certainly the GOP congress kept it all under wraps. Can you imagine where we might be right now if the Dems didn't come in and at least bring these GOP monsters into some form of accountability?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:43 amDemocrats are as worthy as disfigured people.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:44 amBond makes the point that when you talk about waterboarding generally, there are a range of different techniques that could be as different from each other as freestyle is different from the backstroke.
Please spend more time on these postings; the jeopardy to your credibility isn’t worth it.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 11:29 am
This coment is so idiotic it defies belief. On the other hand, you don't HAVE any credibility to jeopardize, so blither on... and on... and on...
December 12th, 2007 at 11:44 amBond makes the point that when you talk about waterboarding generally, there are a range of different techniques that could be as different from each other as freestyle is different from the backstroke.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 11:29 am
The swimming comparison is ridiculous.
The difference between waterboarding a trainee SEAL and waterboarding a prisoner (which is the difference Bond is highlighting) is the difference between what is torture and what isn't. Waterboarding is simulated drowning, period. However you do it, you know the effect on the individual. In the case of the trainee SEAL, the purpose of it is to prepare the individual for future missions; wrt a prisoner, it is "intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession".
That's the Torture Convention language, and it unambiguously confirms the waterboarding of prisoners as torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:44 amComment by The Republic of Stupidity — December 12, 2007 @ 11:40 am
Bigfoot, is this the way the threads normally regress here or is it just one or two of them that engage in such a manner?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:45 amThis is precisely why there won't be another Rethug President for at least the next decade! The polls yesterday tell it all: Any of the Dem frontrunners would win over any of the Republiscum by a LANDSLIDE.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:45 amThat tells it all.
Waterboarding is not quite like swimming, it's more like being strapped down flat on your back to a board and having you head dunked, up-side-down, into a bucket of water while a soggy rag is repeatedly stuck into your mouth, inducing panic but no actual physical damage.
Quite ingenious, not to mention effective under the right circumstances.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:46 am#90: "Democrats are as worthy as disfigured people."
- - Beauty is subjective. You however, are a horse's ass.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:46 amI think TP sensationalized the headline a little bit on this one. I interpreted Kit Bond as saying that there are different types of waterboarding -- just as there are different swimming strokes. I don't see that he made any other parallels between waterboarding and swimming, and I don't think he regards it as a recreational sport.
That said -- I'm more alarmed about Bond's statement that "it's not being used." Call me a skeptic, but when I have been lied to as much as I have been, I have a hard time believing anything coming out of GOP mouths these days.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:46 amShaldag: The threads only regress when morons like yourself and Bigmouth find it necessary to assuage your shattered egos.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:46 amBond makes the point that when you talk about waterboarding generally, there are a range of different techniques that could be as different from each other as freestyle is different from the backstroke.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 11:29 am
**tweet!! and yellow flag** Illegal use of logic. Correction as follows:
Waterboarding is like drowning in fresh water or salt water, hoping to any god ever worshipped that the "life guard" holding your head underwater decides to "save" you in time for you to actually tell him what he wants to hear, true or not.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:46 ammissmolly: With you all the way on the lie factor. No one in this country can believe anything which comes from this white house.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:47 amSince waterboarding, according to Kit Bond (no relation to James), is like swimming, then I'm sure he'd support using it as a memory aid the next time a Boosh Administration official tells a Senate subcommittee that they "can't recall." And, to be effective, the waterboarding would have to continue until the recipient admitted to some egregious wrongdoing. And since the Booshies would like to have confessions obtained through such means deemed as valid, they could immediately be tried and convicted based on these admissions.
Actually, what Bond provided was an incomplete definition -- waterboarding is like swimming, only with a millstone around one's neck.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:47 amIn the case of the trainee SEAL, the purpose of it is to prepare the individual for future missions
Which would lead one to believe (since SEAL's and others have been enduring such training for decades) that capture by our enemies could lead to waterboarding being inflicted on them.
Shoots down the argument that others will only do it us only because we have done it to them.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:48 amguess what Manastic? There's only one so-called technique other than outright drowning. Do your homework. It's all torture. Are there more then one technique for inserting a firecracker in a toad's ass and lighting it, too?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:48 amThe nature of the attacks that Kiriakou says the CIA foiled because of torture was not cataclysmic. It was not the nuclear ticking time-bomb. It was more operational information, and in so far as some attacks were, according to Kiriakou, foiled, they weren’t on US soil. They were overseas.
Yet the victims of those attacks would be just as dead, even though the attacks occurred overseas. Someday it might be a “nuclear ticking time-bomb†and then no one except the most strident will give a hoot what was done to gain the information.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:41 am
I live in New York City, target #1 for terrorists. Very few people here support this president and his policies because we understand (we're not dumb like you) that his policies make us much less safe. Go travel, see the world and stop being a sniveling coward.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:48 ammiss molly,
You are an obviously kind and generous woman. Bond used a "swimming" analogy to purposely minimize waterboarding. The false association of waterboarding-swimming is no different than the false association of 911-Iraq.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:49 amIf waterboarding is just like swimming then I wish I could get my hands on Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz and give them a free "swimming lesson".
December 12th, 2007 at 11:49 amBut we sure lured the trolls on that opener - what a setup. Hah! ALL forms of waterboarding are torture. Besides, according to the army field manual and the CIA, the technique is clearly described. No possible way to redefine it.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:49 amBond, practicing his "Stroke."
December 12th, 2007 at 11:50 amSo if waterboarding is such a day in the park, why do they call it harsh and demand that it be used against suspected terrorists?
-GSD
December 12th, 2007 at 11:50 amBiggie is just doing his job of trying to redefine reality so the rest of us see the world the way he does, right or wrong. He is wrong by the way and this whole discussion with him really has no purpose.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:50 amUmar (Mr. Pee?) nice try! Outed again I guess.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:51 amShaldag: The threads only regress when morons like yourself and Bigmouth find it necessary to assuage your shattered egos.
Comment by patooty — December 12, 2007 @ 11:46 am
Yet it is you and others who feel it necessary to call people morons and insinuate all sorts of aberrant behavior. If that is supposed to be 'thinking progressively' then the left has slid further down than is healthy.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:51 amBush is famous for the backstroke; cheney is famous for the cardiostroke; Rice is famous for the pump stroke.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:52 ammissmolly,
"I’m more alarmed about Bond’s statement that “it’s not being used.â€
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It probably is not being used anymore because waterboarding loses it's ability to induce severe panic once people know that death or permanent physical injury will not be the outcome.
Now that everyone and his brother knows about waterboarding it has become far less useful as a means of gathering information.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:52 amJDMurhphy, you have been reported. Hopefully, you are gone soon.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:53 amshaldag and puppet: Hit the road if you don't like it. You have no purpose here; in fact, from the sound of it your entire life has no purpose.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:53 amTorture says alot more about the people doing the torture than the subjects who are tortured.
I wonder what Jesus would think about state sanctioned torture, I mean I hear crucifixion isn't all that bad, just hanging around in the arm sun with your friends.
*Snark off
-GSD
December 12th, 2007 at 11:53 amand then no one except the most strident will give a hoot what was done to gain the information.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:41 am
Even trianed militray personnel (which you clearly are not) say torture doesn't provide good intel.
Question for you, loser. If waterboarding is so vital to national security, why did the CIA quit using it back in 2005? Or are they lying when they say they did? And are these the same CIA guys who were wrong about WMDs in Iraq? Or the secret lefty cabal who just issued the NIE about Iran's "nucular program"?
And why did the Brusch Admin cut funds to secure nuclear materials in the old Soviet Union? And are cutting funding for homeland security in the US? Don't try to answer all at once. Yer head might implode.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:54 amwarm sun....
December 12th, 2007 at 11:54 amMissouri is it?... That show a lot about Missouri where people actually vote in someone like Sen. Kit Bond. KIT BOND SHOULD GO FOR A SWIMING SECTION OF ONE HOUR. WATERBOARD THE WAR CRIMINAL THAT THINKS THE ILEGAL PRACTICE IS NOT TORTURE!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:54 amBlue Stater: Don't fall for the troll (ulmar lee). He's a know purveyor of feces on these threads. He's a troll hijacker.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:54 amSmall Government is needed so I can do and say what the hell I want.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:54 amShaldag: If Bush had even one concern for our national security, don't you think closing the borders would trump waterboarding any day of the week? Nice try. Adios, fool.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:55 amA Christian collaborator of the Zionists has been killed by the brave Mujahadeen!
Comment by Umar Lee
A real progressive will hardly rejoice in the killing of men. I'm reporting you as well.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:55 amCan you imagine where we might be right now if the Dems didn’t come in and at least bring these GOP monsters into some form of accountability?
Comment by patooty — December 12, 2007 @ 11:43 am
So true, and yet I worry that some Dems may have been complicit due to the climate of fear. Acting out of fear is not a legitimate excuse. We expect our leaders to obey the law. First we need the cleansing of light and all illegal activities must come into the light. Right now, an overwhelming number crimes are coming to light. Its hard enough to dig out the information and keep all the manipulations and spin straight. Someday soon, we need to move into accountability or America is dead.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:55 amA Christian collaborator of the Zionists has been killed by the brave Mujahadeen!
A few others got killed along with the general. I suppose the 'brave muj' will just have to chalk them up as martyrs, though it would have been nice if you had asked first before volunteering them as new members of paradise.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:55 amDefinition of torture currently in 18 USC 2404:
(1) “torture†means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
December 12th, 2007 at 11:56 am(2) “severe mental pain or suffering†means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States†means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
Yet it is you and others who feel it necessary to call people morons and insinuate all sorts of aberrant behavior. If that is supposed to be ‘thinking progressively’ then the left has slid further down than is healthy.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:51 am
If the shoe fits, stick in yer mouth. You don't come here to debate, just to disrupt and annoy. Your comments are ridiculously dishonest or flat out irrational. You get treated accordingly.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:56 am#59 wilco said:
Exactly. Why would it work if it did not put people in fear of their lives?
How does Bill O'Reilly think that it causes people to start confessing things if it is like he says, "splashing a little water in their face"? You know something is serious when all the right-wingers have to use euphemisms for the word torture. Do a search for "simulated drowning". Simulated drowning is not the same as "real drowning" which is what takes place during waterboarding.
However, what information are the interrogators being fed at this moment of confession in this near-death experience? I would gladly tell someone I am the reincarnation of Richard Nixon, living in sin with Snow White and the 12 dwarves, if it allowed me to breathe. I would tell them much worse and much more believable things than that if the drowning would stop.
This country has had centuries of successful interrogations without the use of torture. Even without considering the morality of it, the experts, like John McCain, and countless CIA and military men condemn torture because it does not produce reliable intelligence (See: War, Iraq)
December 12th, 2007 at 11:56 amAny reich-winger that cannot admit that waterboarding is torture undoubtedly hates real American values. Real Americans do not support torture. When the Japs waterboarded our troops in WWIII, we as a country were outraged and decried such acts. We clearly defined waterboarding as torture and real Americans still recognize this facts. Reich-wingers gladly sell out our country and our values for the sake of their perverse party.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:56 amComment by sacopenapa — December 12, 2007 @ 11:54 am
Missouri is a modorn, intelligent and nicely conservative state. Think or shut up.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:57 amNow that everyone and his brother knows about waterboarding it has become far less useful as a means of gathering information.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 12, 2007 @ 11:52 am
Sure! It's not like waterboarding is an old torturing technique practiced by many cultures over many centuries and information about its technique and outcomes could have been known by any other country but the super U.S.A..
Oh, really, ... it is? it has? it is?...never mind.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:57 amBigfoot, is this the way the threads normally regress here or is it just one or two of them that engage in such a manner?
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:45 am
Somebody get a picture of this one too. Whattaoutfit.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:58 amBlue Stater,
New York is alos rapidly becoming an Islamic city.
It wouldn’t be targetted next time.
We will take over peacefully!
Comment by Umar Lee — December 12, 2007 @ 11:53 am
I assume you mean also, but it is apparent you don't live here as there are a fair amount of Muslims who do live here. They have jobs, support their family and contribute to society, all things I doubt you do.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:58 amSections 2 (a) and (b) clearly show that threatened infliction and threatened administration to disrupt profoundly the senses is torture.
Every statement I have heard from those who have been waterboarded say they were believing they were drowning.
Our laws show this is torture. end of the debate.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:58 amComment by The Republic of Stupidity — December 12, 2007 @ 11:56 am
Stick it bum leftist
December 12th, 2007 at 11:58 amSo, we have a troll plague going on.
Ignore.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:58 amBigfoot, is this the way the threads normally regress here or is it just one or two of them that engage in such a manner?
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:45 am
From the syntax of this comment, I have to wonder, is the NRC still outsourcing its trolling offseas?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:59 amBigfoot, is this the way the threads normally regress here or is it just one or two of them that engage in such a manner?
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:45 am
these threads nomally regress as soon as traitors and antiAmerican scum like you and bigfoot show up to throw your antiAmerican lies and bullshit around. None of you on the far right has any respect for the law, or other human beings, so don't expect any coming back at you. You are reviled by real Americans, and your disregard for the Constitution and for civilized law is marking you as targets when we clean the USA of rightwing scumsuckers like you. You've been warned.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:59 amWhich would lead one to believe (since SEAL’s and others have been enduring such training for decades) that capture by our enemies could lead to waterboarding being inflicted on them.
Shoots down the argument that others will only do it us only because we have done it to them.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 11:48 am
Shorter Shaldag: The Nazis did it, so why have the debate anyway.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:59 amIgnore.
Comment by Juan C. — December 12, 2007 @ 11:58 am
Must be the warm weather somewhere.
They're hatching out of the ground like crazy this morning.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:00 pmMissouri is a modorn, intelligent and nicely conservative state. Think or shut up.
Comment by JD Murphy — December 12, 2007 @ 11:57 am
Try that yourself, you Missouri Moron. The Know-nothing state.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:00 pmI live in New York City, target #1 for terrorists. Very few people here support this president and his policies because we understand (we’re not dumb like you) that his policies make us much less safe. Go travel, see the world and stop being a sniveling coward.
Yet on 9/12/01 the citizens of NYC joined the rest of the nation in demanding to know why this attack happened and why it wasn't stopped.
I have traveled the world and I have seen the options available outside of the U.S. I'll take this nation anytime.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:00 pmWhat a bizarre logical disconnect. On the one hand, lying, bedwetting scum like Kit Bond, Captain Mantastic, and O. Bigfoot try to argue in one way or another that waterboarding is not torture, but on the other hand they rationalize its use to extract information from people. If waterboarding is not physically coercive, then why would it facilitate the extraction of information? The person being waterboarded is induced to provide information that they would not otherwise provide because they are being subjected to physical pain. That equals torture. Period. Any attempt to argue otherwise is patently illogical and therefore patently dishonest.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:01 pmThere is no means of dealing with these people. They lie and distort. They are incapable of genuine moral values. They must simply be eliminated by any and all means possible. The political system has failed. It is time to seriously discuss the change of our government through other means.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:02 pmI’ll take this nation anytime.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Sorry, but a weekend in a Tiajuana cathouse doesn't count.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:02 pmRe: waterboarding:
Haven't time to read the whole comment thread, but if a link to this hasn't been posted here yet, it should have been- Malcolm Nance, quoted from http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/
"There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists
1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.
2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.
Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.
Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again..."
December 12th, 2007 at 12:02 pmI have traveled the world and I have seen the options available outside of the U.S.
Comment by Shaldag
For example? And be specific, what did you eat, how many people did you meet, what they talk about, how was the TV news?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:02 pmI have traveled the world and I have seen the options available outside of the U.S. I’ll take this nation anytime.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
you're a liar, so who could possibly care what you think? You've never seen the options outside of the US, or you wouldn't be puking up such dishonest, ignorant garbage.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:03 pmAdd Shaldag to my list of lying, bedwetting scum.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:03 pmWaterboard=Torture
OR
Blowjob=sex
O those good ol' days gone by, seems like such a long time ago.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:03 pmWhich of course, leads us right back to the ultimate goal of today’s far-left.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
As opposed to the ultimate goal of today's far-right, as typified by yourself?
Ching-ching-ching-a-ling. Quite tha outfit.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:03 pmYet on 9/12/01 the citizens of NYC joined the rest of the nation in demanding to know why this attack happened and why it wasn’t stopped.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
And yet, herr dubyah and his reich-wing administration have yet to capture or kill the person responsible for the acts on 9/11 and the reich-wingers have yet to hold herr dubyah responsible for stopping the attacks that he knew were coming.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:03 pmA co-worker who was waterboarded in the military stated that you could get anyone to admit to anything by such means.
If the Iranians had used this technique with the hostages in the late 1970s, they could have had each and every one of them on tape admitting to being spies or worse.
The redefinitions of terms and values is all too reminiscent of that which occurred in Germany from the 1920s to the mid-1940s.
"It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God." - Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923
December 12th, 2007 at 12:04 pmI just felt sorry for Bigfoot.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:04 pmIts lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again…â€
Comment by And Yet... — December 12, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Apparently they had hundreds of hours of this stuff taped.
Saturday Night At The Movies, BruschCo Style!
December 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pmI have traveled the world
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Surfing the Internet in your mother's basement does not equate to "traveling the world", reich-winger.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pmI live in New York City, target #1 for terrorists. Very few people here support this president and his policies because we understand (we’re not dumb like you) that his policies make us much less safe. Go travel, see the world and stop being a sniveling coward.
Yet on 9/12/01 the citizens of NYC joined the rest of the nation in demanding to know why this attack happened and why it wasn’t stopped.
I have traveled the world and I have seen the options available outside of the U.S. I’ll take this nation anytime.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
And we saw that Bush did nothing, that's why it happened, and his policies are crap and make this country less safe and make the US a pariah.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pmI really doubt you have ever left whatever crap state in which you reside (I purposely don't say live, as you just exist), because anyone with your narrow-minded, cowardly views couldn't possibly have actually experienced other cultures. And if you did ever leave the country, you were the ugly American asking why people don't speak English ad where the nearest McDonalds was as the food here tastes funny.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Bumshit communist with no money
December 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pmI just felt sorry for Bigfoot.
Comment by Juan C. — December 12, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
Just wait till he sobers up and sees those pictures of himself in that outfit.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pmShorter Shaldag: The Nazis did it, so why have the debate anyway.
Comment by Dumb_Fox — December 12, 2007 @ 11:59 am
The basis of the debate is that if we do it, our soldiers will have it done to them too. It has been done to them already which is one of the reasons our SF guys and others get exposed to the procedure, such treatment is expected.
It is naive to believe that such a practice wouldn't occur even if it were officially condemned, not when national security is at stake.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:06 pmUmar Troll, Would you rather die by beheading or as collateral damage? Intentinal, singled out or just an oops?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:06 pmWhich of course, leads us right back to the ultimate goal of today’s far-left.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
of course, reagan-like conservatism never existed, therefore couldn't possible work. Reqagan-like communism is what you're talking about, where the rich get richer on the backs of the middle class. Clinton had a far better economy than reagan, and left the USA with the biggest surplus in history. reagan very nearly led us into complete failure, and Bush has followed in his footsteps, creating a sick ecenomy, a weak military and an amoral governmet. conservatism has historically always failed, from Hitler to Stalin and on. The USA grew strongest when it embraced its liberal values, and weakest when smothered by conservative greed and ignorance. you should read some history, bigfoot, you obviously never have cracked a book, nor read the Constitution.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:07 pmSurfing the Internet in your mother’s basement does not equate to “traveling the worldâ€, reich-winger.
Comment by Dr. Matt — December 12, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
That's actually the crawl space under the double wide. He calls it the basement for vanity's sake.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:07 pmKit! - You're supposed to be bailing water OUT of the boat, not IN!!!!
December 12th, 2007 at 12:07 pmThe basis of the debate is that if we do it, our soldiers will have it done to them too. It has been done to them already which is one of the reasons our SF guys and others get exposed to the procedure, such treatment is expected.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
The reason why certain military members are waterboarded is to show them what torture is like. Fact.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:07 pmSo, can anyone cite a situation (sourced) where insurgents captured members of the U. S. military and subjected them to waterboarding?
If this is such an effective and humane technique, it would only seem reasonable that they would use it as well -- to save lives on their side.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:08 pmComment by Lefty Patriot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Bumshit communist with no money
Comment by JD Murphy — December 12, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
JD, you really need that GED if that's all you can muster out of your fetid swamp of a brain and that filthy piehole of yours. No wonder the GOP is dead, waiting for the left to bury it next year.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:08 pmComment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Scumbag, never responded to my post as to why you support the terrorists, because your positions and those of this administration you love do just that.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:08 pmTorture is illegal. Waterboarding is illegal. The USA should be strong enough to obey the law.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:08 pmOl' Biggie don't even need to listen to Rush no more - he just opens his mouth, closes his eyes, and out comes the voice of "The Flaccid One"
December 12th, 2007 at 12:09 pmThanks to bigfoot, JD, captain manhandler and Jason Hitler for 9/11. good job, traitors!
December 12th, 2007 at 12:09 pmAnd we saw that Bush did nothing, that’s why it happened
Then we had better get used to using waterboarding and every other method available to us because our terrorist enemies are pretty good. The 911 hijackers manage to commit the worst terrorist attack in American history, and it only took eight months of planning.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:10 pmIn short, real Reagan-Like Conservatism works every time it is tried, while the experimentation with modern-day liberalism has nothing to show for itself but a sense of disunity, loss of national identity, and other indications of utter failure which could very well destroy the United States if allowed to continue.
Which of course, leads us right back to the ultimate goal of today’s far-left.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
You're so detached from reality, Bigfoot, that it's impossible to list the hundreds of ways in which this is just flat wrong. Conservatives, Reagan-ish or otherwise, have had ample opportunity to prove their theories work, they've had control of all three branches of the federal government for years, and yet they've proven only the opposite: their theories don't work and conservatives are systemically incapable of governing.
Take a look at American history some time without your blinders and you'll realize that the periods of greatest growth have been those periods when we were out from under the thumb of repressive "conservative" ideologues.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:11 pmSo, can anyone cite a situation (sourced) where insurgents captured members of the U. S. military and subjected them to waterboarding?
If this is such an effective and humane technique, it would only seem reasonable that they would use it as well — to save lives on their side.
Comment by curmudgeon — December 12, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Seems like they're more civilized than American rightwingers. Of course, rightards have to give up any moral code to become rightards, so it makes sense that teh insurgents wouild have more morals than the american right wing.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:11 pmThe 911 hijackers manage to commit the worst terrorist attack in American history, and it only took eight months of planning.
Comment by Shaldag
...and some really extraordinary coincidences, I might add.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:12 pmThink of how quickly we could have ended World War II and the tens of thousands of lives saved if we'd only used this technique back then.
The fact that it is being routinely used now must explain why the United States has succeeded so quickly in Iraq (although the U.S. now holds about a 12 to 1 advantage in terms of population, hasn't been ravaged by sanctions for more than a decade and a half, and spends more than the rest of the world for military gadgetry).
December 12th, 2007 at 12:13 pmI’ll take this nation anytime.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
It's WHERE you take our nation that concerns us.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:13 pmThe neocons are taking our nation away from the morality and the democracy on which it was founded and prospered for generations. We cannot let them take this nation any further than they have.
The 911 hijackers manage to commit the worst terrorist attack in American history, and it only took eight months of planning.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
That's only because they saw an incompetent moron installed in the White House, and they saw him choose a completely unqualified, rather stupid person as head of NSA. They knew right then and there that a successful attack had a good chance; it's impossible to underestimate the ability of George Bush to fail the American people. He's batting 1.000.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:14 pmSuppose Bond would also tell us that being placed on the rack would not be much different than a visit to the chiropractor?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:14 pmThe reason why certain military members are waterboarded is to show them what torture is like. Fact.
Seems odd that we would torture our own people, leaving them scarred for life.
Our troops are also exposed to harsh lighting, lack of sleep, mental and physical anguish, shouting and cursing...and that is just in boot camp.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:14 pmOur troops are also exposed to harsh lighting, lack of sleep, mental and physical anguish, shouting and cursing…and that is just in boot camp.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
It might explain why we're losing, you dipshit.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:15 pmFor those who are unsure whether waterboarding is torture it should be pointed out that American soldiers were courtmartialed for using waterboarding during the Spanish American war to question Fillipino guerrillas during the occupation (unlawful combatants anyone?). In case that, and the prosecution of the Japanese for war crimes including waterboarding, are not 'current' enough, you should also be aware that as late as 1983 federal prosecutors DID consider it to be torture.
For a comprehensive, but probably not exhaustive, account of the status of waterboarding consult
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170_pf.html
December 12th, 2007 at 12:17 pmThat’s only because they saw an incompetent moron installed in the White House, and they saw him choose a completely unqualified, rather stupid person as head of NSA.
I'm afraid that post went right over your head. Such a mission took far longer than eight months to plan, in fact it was hatched years before, which would place the beginning of the timeline under the previous administration.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:17 pmRegan and his pack of sh@t stains were never held accountable for their crimes including the murdering contras. Many of these same criminals are again attempting to destroy our country.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:18 pmIt might explain why we’re losing, you dipshit.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Don't include me in your "we're losing" statement. "We" are not losing.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:19 pmThe US is losing due to the bravery of the Mujahadeen.
America can never defeat Islamic armies!
Those islamic "armies" have been reduced to bombing markets and beheading children, not they have ever been capable of anything much more substantial than that in about 500 years.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:23 pmnow this is really funny - Biggie and Dogshagger talking about us in the third person on our own thread, straining with all their meager might to muster an insult that will set someone off....
December 12th, 2007 at 12:23 pmTRAITOR Reagan is DEAD and BURNING IN HELL for his TREASON.
MURDERER Bush the COXUCKER punk TRAITOR to the USA is next...
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 12th, 2007 at 12:24 pmUmar - you're a m#therf#cking wack-job, who is not welcome here, of funny.
We will flag all your comments, and you will be gone.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:24 pmGOP is losing due to its steadfast love of failed policies. The fact that they are willing to break laws only hastens their demise. The sooner that happens the sooner this country can begin to regain its once great moral grounding and begin to repair the damage caused by the GOP criminals. This bunch of Right Wing criminals would brand IKE a traitor.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:25 pmHEY BIGGIE - Do those dictionaries you're talking about have "berift" in them???????????????
moron.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:26 pmI would suggest they buy a dictionary, and actually use it.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
Do you get extra points for being pompous? You've got a lot of nerve criticizing the "far-left" when you routinely refuse to respond when others point out the fallacies and silliness of your posts. You choose to bloviate for multiple paragraphs and your magical psychic powers that know what "most Americans" think and believe (in spite of evidence to the contrary) and when challenged either disappear or simply ignore the opportunity to back up your bloviation with something beside anecdotal evidence and confusion.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:27 pmAmerican troops are cowards who keep losing battles to the Mujahadeen!
Comment by Umar Lee — December 12, 2007 @ 12:22 pm
You must be referring to these muj:
"The Taliban lost their grip on the only significant Afghan territory they held, Musa Qala, earlier this week. Most of their forces withdrew rather than fight the combined NATO and Afghan forces that took back the Helmand city. Their effort to shift to a fallback position in Sangin, a neighboring town, has also failed."
December 12th, 2007 at 12:27 pmA long-time acquaintance of mine recently told me that he'd been out of work for some time and finally swallowed his pride, taking what appeared to be a telemarketing job. He still has no idea who is actually providing the money, but his job (4 hours a day, 5 days a week) is to visit progressive websites and essentially throw a wrench into the gears of the operation (he referred to himself as similar in function to a rodeo clown).
The compensation package is rather intriguing -- one gets paid on a piece rate basis -- a certain amount of money for each post that targets you rather than the topic under discussion. He indicated that if all goes well, by the end of the year his take should reach the upper five-figures, and all this without needing to leave the confines of his home.
With opportunities like that, I can't imagine anyone doing this for free.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:28 pmIt might explain why we’re losing, you dipshit.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Don’t include me in your “we’re losing†statement. “We†are not losing.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
So you're writing from Iraq? Otherwise STFU
December 12th, 2007 at 12:29 pmComment by Umar Lee — December 12, 2007 @ 12:22 pm
The United States Military is the finest to have ever walked this planet. Cowards are those who hide in the shadows. Cowards are the ones that strap bombs to others after filling their heads with promises of virgins in the afterlife just to kill innocent people.
You Umar, are a fearmonger and a coward.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:29 pmI still can't find "berift" in my dictionary - maybe it's too "liberal".
December 12th, 2007 at 12:29 pmSen. Kit Bond (R-MO) = A Fascist Repukian catapulting the White House propaganda and knowing the 28%ers are believing every word he says.
Bush/Cheney/Bond
Hague Trials '09
Buck Fush
December 12th, 2007 at 12:29 pmHit Umar with the abuse button on every post.
Trolls are one thing - trolls who are off their meds is another.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:30 pmIt might explain why we’re losing, you dipshit.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:15 pmâ€
You may consider yourself a loser, LP. But believe me, there is no need for you to feel that way.
Please, do a little research, and see that General Petraeus’ brilliant strategy, coupled with the greatness of our nation’s military men and women, is actually turning Iraq toward stability and ultimate victory for the United States.
There is every reason to be positive, man!
Merry Christmas!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
You are a moron, it's just that simple. You don't debate, you post viriol and trash. You don't merit anything but scorn.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:31 pmthanks Umar, for giving me another opportunity to report you.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:31 pmComment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
Stability may come to Iraq. And it may be due to Gen. Petraeus. It does not absolve this administration for the countless deaths needlessly because of lies that threw us into the conflict.
The ends do not justify the means.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:31 pmThere is every reason to be positive, man!
Merry Christmas!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
Praise Jesus...we torture....our country can lie its way out of any hole it's dug.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:31 pmSarcasm off.
The backstroke was my race in high school, but I never felt compelled to start giving up information....
Maybe I blocked it out. It must have been traumatic...
December 12th, 2007 at 12:33 pmComment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
Thanks for getting back to me. The abuse seems to start early, though I certainly haven't garnered much more than the casual "you are a moron" or "ya dipshit" yet, though I suppose with enough time spent here the vitriol toward me will increase.
Some of the things others have said toward you is vile, is that what I can expect here on a normal basis?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:33 pmPlease, do a little research, and see that General Petraeus’ brilliant strategy, coupled with the greatness of our nation’s military men and women, is actually turning Iraq toward stability and ultimate victory for the United States.
There is every reason to be positive, man!
Merry Christmas!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
Again, you insulate yourself from reality and puff yourself up with empty pseudo-patriotism. I'll post this again although I know it's useless to try to break through your delusions.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:33 pm#148 umm Biggie sorry, but Regan style conservatism does not work, and what we have now in no way shape or form resembles Regan style conservatism. Regan ran up huge deficits, his deregulation (targeted at campaign contributors in the banking industry) caused a huge financial crisis for the nation. His administration frequently broke laws, trading arms with Iran, sending weapons to the contra's etc... Oh and the centerpiece of Reganism is Trickle Down economics...it does not work. No serious economist will argue that it works. It looks good on paper and sounds good when being described, but it does not work. It failed in the 1980's and it is failing again today...the statistics bear this failure out. By the way I learned about how the trickle down theory does not work from an openly conservative economics professor...the only professor I ever had who openly talked about his political beliefs.
#197 you say that yet one of the rallying cries of thhe right is that they want to take over our country rape our women and force us all to become Muslim. Of course any reasonable person can distinguish between someone making a statement from the confines of a mud cave somehwere and them having the actual ability to carry out their rant.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:35 pmAnd Bigfoot, when are you going to explain why WaterboardingUSA is different from WaterboardingNippon or WaterboardingInquisition?
Or are you ignoring the question because you know that there is no distinction and that waterboarding is waterboarding the world around?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:35 pmI'm Dreaming of a Right Christmas
(lyrics by me, with apologies to Irving Berlin)
I'm dreaming of a Right Christmas...
Just like the ones I used to know
where the waterboards glisten
and agents listen
for terrorists screaming out all they know!
I'm dreaming of a Right Christmas
December 12th, 2007 at 12:35 pmwith every anti-gay law I write
May your days be scary
with fright,
and may all your Christmases be Right!
Faiz and Think Progress are supporters of the Mujahadeen!
Comment by Umar Lee — December 12, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
I don't know who Faiz is but if your championing of suicide bombings is accepted by the moderators, then this site needs to reconsider its basis for existence.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:35 pmSome of the things others have said toward you is vile, is that what I can expect here on a normal basis?
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
So cute. Yes, you can expect to regularly be called an idiot or a moron. You should definitely run away.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:36 pmwaterboarding is not torture its like swimming
December 12th, 2007 at 12:36 pmits not war its justice
Larry Craig is not gay he is just kidding himself
Comment by Leftside Annie — December 12, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Heh, I can appreciate a good effort. I really did laugh out loud because that ditty WAS original.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:37 pmSome of the things others have said toward you is vile, is that what I can expect here on a normal basis?
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Yes, if you don't like it leave. You are a coward who wants other people to fight your wars. That's not an attack, it's a simple statement of fact. You are nothing but human trash, OK that was an attack (though, from what you post I can be sure that is 99% a fact).
December 12th, 2007 at 12:37 pmThe trolls seem to feel that there is some kind of gray area when it comes to defining waterboarding. Filling someone's lungs slowly with water until they feel imminent death is coming (this is how it's been described by American soldiers as well as Dan Levin, a former assistant AG who have experienced it first hand). Despite knowing full well that they were in a controlled environment they could not stifle the terror of thinking that they would die. Causing mental anguish to the point where the subject is convinced of imminent death is the textbook definition of torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:37 pmThese trolls also take offense at being called the morons that they are. Coming here daily to try to get the WH's arguments out to the public is doing them more harm than good. It's good for Americans to see inside the minds of these fascist bedwetters. Keep showing your true colors, trolls. You may not want to admit it, but it's not just the so-called far left that sees this as torture. There are various laws and treaties that define this as such. This Administration, it's lawyers and the trolls that carry their water and wipe their asses with our Constitution have absolutely no moral integrity, no respect for America's laws. They are simply trying to protect their Dear Leader's butt. He's lied about this for years and it's finally catching up to him. Poor, poor misguided trolls. Just following orders huh, you pathetic pantywastes?
So cute. Yes, you can expect to regularly be called an idiot or a moron. You should definitely run away.
Comment by gummitch — December 12, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
Thanks for chiming-in, at least I know where I stand here and what to expect.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:39 pmSome of the things others have said toward you is vile, is that what I can expect here on a normal basis?
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
So by not responding to my post, I assume you accept that you are a coward. I think we're getting somewhere. Also, where in the world have you actually been? You're also a liar I see
December 12th, 2007 at 12:41 pmThe compensation package is rather intriguing — one gets paid on a piece rate basis — a certain amount of money for each post that targets you rather than the topic under discussion. He indicated that if all goes well, by the end of the year his take should reach the upper five-figures, and all this without needing to leave the confines of his home.
With opportunities like that, I can’t imagine anyone doing this for free.
Comment by curmudgeon — December 12, 2007 @ 12:28 pmâ€
If that’s the case, then there are a lot of “pseudo-lefties†around here making a lot of money!
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
Is posting here how you afford your doublewide trailer? I hear next year you will get indoor plumbing, must be exciting.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:42 pmYes, if you don’t like it leave. You are a coward who wants other people to fight your wars. That’s not an attack, it’s a simple statement of fact. You are nothing but human trash, OK that was an attack (though, from what you post I can be sure that is 99% a fact).
Comment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
I may leave though I must admit I take pleasure in seeing people like you absolutely crushing the name (and I would presume the intent) of this site. The misnomer is quite evident, especially with you as daily evidence.
Something which is only 99% cannot be a fact. THAT is a fact.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:44 pmWe've had plenty of visitors claim the same thing you claim Shaldag, but they all turned out to be here under false pretenses, with a very clear agenda - you haved to do/say something to prove that's not your game, or you will continue to be treated as an opponent.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:46 pmWhat I love about you, Umar, is that I don't have to think twice about flagging your posts "abuse" which will result in your disappearance from these threads.
Get bent - frat boy.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:48 pmIs posting here how you afford your doublewide trailer? I hear next year you will get indoor plumbing, must be exciting.
Comment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
I can only presume that this comment was meant as a slur against those who live in trailer homes, with a nod toward people who don't have a lot of money.
One can only imagine why someone with the moniker "blue stater" would use such language as an insult; so much for the DFL being the big tent.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:48 pmHas Shaldag made any on-topic comments yet?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:48 pmIt's a tent SO big, Shaldag, that 2 thirds of the US population is already in it - that's BIG, huh?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:49 pmYes, if you don’t like it leave. You are a coward who wants other people to fight your wars. That’s not an attack, it’s a simple statement of fact. You are nothing but human trash, OK that was an attack (though, from what you post I can be sure that is 99% a fact).
Comment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
I may leave though I must admit I take pleasure in seeing people like you absolutely crushing the name (and I would presume the intent) of this site. The misnomer is quite evident, especially with you as daily evidence.
Something which is only 99% cannot be a fact. THAT is a fact.
Sorry, you're correct. It's 100% a fact. Thank you for calling out my error
December 12th, 2007 at 12:49 pmTRAITOR Reagan is DEAD and BURNING IN HELL for his TREASON.
AWOL coward and MURDERER Bush the COXUCKER punk TRAITOR is about to join him.
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 12th, 2007 at 12:50 pmZoo - no - he's been having a self-pity party with Bigfoot - I'd rather watch 2 old men make out.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:50 pmZoo - no - he’s been having a self-pity party with Bigfoot - I’d rather watch 2 old men make out.
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
Eh, give 'em time...
December 12th, 2007 at 12:52 pmyikes - u shut up zoo - i'm trying to keep breakfast down.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:53 pmComment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 12:46 pm
There is nothing to be said other than what I post, if you decide to believe that I am something else then I can't help you.
An "agenda" could be anything or everything, this site itself could be considered part of an agenda, as could your opinion or that of anyone else including me.
Dealing with the abusiveness of someone like blue-stater is simple though tiring; he is obviously a baiter and nothing much more than that. If YOU want to actually have a good-spirited debate with me then have at it, just leave the insults unwritten.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:53 pmyou're a long-winded mofo Biggie - ya think you could keep those posts down to 50-100 words.
there'a another Rush trait you've absorbed - prattling on without meaning, content just to hear your own voice...
December 12th, 2007 at 12:55 pm...i’m trying to keep breakfast down.
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
My work here is done. :-D
Have fun watching the piss-soaked trolls nail themselves to the cross.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:55 pmComment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
Well at least that fairly open participation protocol is a good sign. It's a shame that the insults come so easily and after just a few posts.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:56 pmShal - you're only participating in meta-commentary, which is pointless.
Do you know what the topic of the thread even is?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:56 pmIs posting here how you afford your doublewide trailer? I hear next year you will get indoor plumbing, must be exciting.
Comment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
I can only presume that this comment was meant as a slur against those who live in trailer homes, with a nod toward people who don’t have a lot of money.
One can only imagine why someone with the moniker “blue stater†would use such language as an insult; so much for the DFL being the big tent.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
I assume I make more money than you, but I don't have a problem with paying taxes and supporting progressive causes and those who are less fortunate than I am. I'm not as selfish as you, it's really that simple. Conservatives are by and large selfish and fearful. You fear change, change is not to be feared. It makes all of our lives better, it's known as progress, hence progressive.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:57 pmhere's an idea - Biggie, you call Shaldag on the phone, and you can cry on each others' shoulders about how mean and unfair this website is to you. then the rest of us won't have to puke from having to listen to your weak-sister whining.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:58 pmSorry, you’re correct. It’s 100% a fact. Thank you for calling out my error
Comment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
You're welcome, though it probably won't be the last time I have to do such a thing.
I should also point out that opinions are not statements of fact, they are opinions.
You're welcome in advance.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:00 pmMeanwhile BACK ON TOPIC:
How much damage will Bonds' statements do to R's campaigning for office in the Midwest next fall (those who haven't already quit/retired/been indicted)??
December 12th, 2007 at 1:02 pmANYONE ELSE REMEMBER WHAT THE TOPIC IS?????????????????????
December 12th, 2007 at 1:03 pmumar lee are you trying to pin liberals as supporters of islams. you are some conservative hypocrite, aren't you?.Liberals actually don't align with majority of religion.Buddism is alright i guess. But this war(war on terrorism) is actually muslims conservatives fighting western conservative. So thats it...no muslim supporter here..sorry.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmComment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
Your post still doesn't explain why you would attempt to insult someone by claiming they live in a trailer-home.
I guess "progress, hence progressive" thought harbors a few prejudiced skeletons.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmumar lee are you trying to pin liberals as supporters of islams. you are some conservative hypocrite, aren't you?.Liberals actually don't align with majority of religion.Buddism is alright i guess. But this war(war on terrorism) is actually muslims conservatives fighting western conservative. So thats it...no muslim supporters here..sorry.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmShal - you’re only participating in meta-commentary, which is pointless.
Do you know what the topic of the thread even is?
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
Yes I do, though I would expect your commentary wouldn't exactly align with the thread topic either. Current examples (among a great many):
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
December 12th, 2007 at 1:08 pmComment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 12:55 pm
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
How cute, tombaker has a stalker. Welcome to the blogosphere. :D
December 12th, 2007 at 1:15 pmComment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
Your post still doesn’t explain why you would attempt to insult someone by claiming they live in a trailer-home.
I guess “progress, hence progressive†thought harbors a few prejudiced skeletons.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
The post was not an attack against people who live in trailers, it was a specific comment to Bigfoot (that was very apparent if you read the post), but if I offended anyone who is not a blithering idiot, like Bigfoot, who lives in a trailer I do apologize. How's that.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:15 pm261 - I walked in on this thread after YOU, BIGGIE, and UMAR had thoroughly derailed it. Try making a claim that's not patently spurious, would you? What are you here for in the first place, if it's not to derail threads and pretend to be something you're not??
December 12th, 2007 at 1:22 pm262 - no prob - my "counter-stalking" skills are highly developed. Shag-a-Lag's got nothing on the the real, capitol T trolls.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:24 pmIt's time for the Senate to call a trained waterboarding instructer to the floor of the Senate "Torture Chamber" and demonstrate the practice on Sen Bond. He undoubtly knows how to swim. All he needs is a bathing suit.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:26 pm...AND ELETRICAL SHOCK (ALSO USED BY THE CIA!) IS LIKE SLEEPING. I HOPE THIS IMBECIL OF A SENATOR GETS BOTH BEFORE HE DROPS DEAD!
December 12th, 2007 at 1:48 pmKit Bond represents Missouri, the "Show Me State".
December 12th, 2007 at 1:49 pmMethinks he needs to be shown what waterboarding is, perhaps a live demonstration starring himself.
And, if the CIA is not too busy, they could videotape it for the continued amusement of Bush, Cheney, Rice, Gonzalez, Rove, Hayden, Rumsfeld, etc.
It would make a nice gift to be shared by all.
Ny will soon be an Islamic city and we appreaciate your assistance in our takeover!
Comment by Umar Lee — December 12, 2007 @ 12:45
Mr. President, you are back to your old compulsions I see. I hope you don't have to get on an airplane any time soon because you are definitely on the no fly list now. Maybe we can't track you back to your real name but I'm pretty sure the intelligence community can. You'll be spending a lot of time in Virginia won't you.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:53 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
Now you want to tell Shaldag that his off topic postings are a nuisance and he should try staying ON TOPIC?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:58 pmCurmudgeon,
"He still has no idea who is actually providing the money, but his job (4 hours a day, 5 days a week) is to visit progressive websites and essentially throw a wrench into the gears of the operation..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
BS...Either you're lying or your friend is lying.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:02 pm.
Sen. Kit Bond For Torture...
Great campaine add... NO?
.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:16 pmCapt. - seriously - you know what these people say that gets them abused, and you'd have to be pretty naive to think that no one's going to return the "favors" they bring us.
Get over it - this is a "big people" place, where sometimes "mean, big people language" gets used.
If it's too much for anyone, they can go to one of AOL's kid-friendly chatrooms, where no one will be impolite to them. There are plenty of heavily-moderated sites available to anyone whose sensitivites are that easily-offended.
I don't buy your act anymore Capt. - You're really no better than the other Righty wierdos who show up here with a big chip on their shoulder trying to "prove" something. It's transparent, disingenuous, and weak above all.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:24 pmDefinition of torture currently in 18 USC 2404:
(1) “torture†means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
December 12th, 2007 at 2:32 pm(2) “severe mental pain or suffering†means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States†means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
the reality is there actually is plenty of doubt that waterboarding, as practiced by the United States, is torture.
So, you calling Bond, Kit Bond a liar? He says that the discussion is "beside the point" since we don't even do it.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:35 pmFormer CIA interrogator John Kiriakou came out this week and confirmed that in 2002, al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded
Comment by Shaldag: Kiriakou also said that the technique was effective in making Zubaydah break down and start talking which contributed to stopping several attacks.
Yes..... and he also said that he had concluded from his own experience that waterboarding is indeed torture and that he is now opposed to its use, even though he claims that it prevented some unspecified number of unspecified attacks.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:41 pmComment by BobHow is today’s waterboarding specifically different from the waterboarding that has been prosecuted as a war crime in the past?
We use Evian?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:45 pm(2) “severe mental pain or suffering†means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality
Hellooooo!!!!!!! waterboarding is torture as defined by our current laws. simulating drowing is the threat of imminent death.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:46 pm"There’s no doubt that waterboarding is torture. "
Really? There's no doubt? Funny, because I don't believe that waterboarding is torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:59 pmComment by Shaldag: No such facility exists.
Halliburton has been awarded the contract to build it by the Army Corps of Engineers. The facility's to be built for the Department of Homeland Security.
The reason the facility doesn't yet exist (as far as we know) is because the contract calls for it to be built in the event of a perceived need. That need could be a mass roundup of suspected illegals or even just a change in DHS policy which currently sees about 60% of non-Mexican illegals released on their own recognizance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/national/04halliburton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
December 12th, 2007 at 3:03 pmComment by patooty: I would think that anything that simulates drowning, regardless of the technique used, is undoubtedly and unequivocally TORTURE.
It's not your fault because the media constantly describes waterboarding as "simulated drowning" but waterboarding isn't "simulated" anything. It's drowning, pure and simple. "Subjects" are restrained while water is poured down their nose and throat, entering their lungs. They are, quite simply, drowning. The idea, however, is to try not to let them die, at least not before they "cough up" the information we want them to.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:10 pmReally? There’s no doubt? Funny, because I don’t believe that waterboarding is torture.
Comment by ohplease
really......come by my house then, we will play waterboarding.....
December 12th, 2007 at 3:12 pmFunny, because I don’t believe that waterboarding is torture.
Comment by ohplease — December 12, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
Does anyone care what this one thinks?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:13 pmThere is NO WAY this is not torture and if the Dems were doing it, the reichwing pigs would be calling it torture.
Comment by Shaldag: Which makes one wonder why the practice wasn’t outlawed under previous democrat administrations, or the current dem-controlled houses.
It is illegal. When the US ratifies and signs an international treaty, as we did with the Geneva Conventions, the provisions of that treaty become US law. There is no need to write additional legislation to cover a practice which is already illegal under existing law.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:15 pmthe 2+2=5 crowd is a daughty and tenacious lot, indeed.
however, 4 is still 4, and they've yet to put a dent in it.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:18 pmFunny, because I don’t believe that waterboarding is torture.
Comment by ohplease — December 12, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
Does anyone care what this one thinks?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
i do......i am playing waterboarding with him this christmas
December 12th, 2007 at 3:18 pmSo waterboarding isn't torture...
United States
* In 1947, the United States prosecuted a Japanese military officer, Yukio Asano, for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II. Yukio Asano received a sentence of 15 years of hard labor.[13] The charges of Violation of the Laws and Customs of War against Asano also included "beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward."[55]
December 12th, 2007 at 3:19 pm* In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record,[56] and critics of waterboarding draw parallels between the two techniques, citing the similar usage of water on the subject.
* On September 6, 2006, the U.S. Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel. The department adopted the manual amid widespread criticism of U.S. handling of prisoners in the War on Terrorism, and prohibits other practices in addition to waterboarding. The revised manual applies only to U.S. military personnel, and as such does not apply to the practices of the CIA.[57] However, under international law, violators of the laws of war are criminally liable under the command responsibility, and could still be prosecuted for war crimes.[58]
Bigfoot has worn those glasses-that-make-the-world-look-upside-down for so long , you could take them away and their effect would persist forever - his brain has arranged itself to accommodate the disconnect, and nothing and no one can undo it.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:20 pmConservatives have repeatedly tried to dismiss the seriousness of waterboarding, referring to it as a “swim lesson.â€
I suggest that we immediately give "waterboarding swim lessons" to all those who don't think it is torture. If it isn't torture, they won't mind, will they?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pmBut, Big, you're just parroting the commentary of Limbaugh and Hannity, which is already widely available to those who are interested.
Erecting a stonewall in the middle of every thread doesn't amount to anything meaningful - it's an obstacle, which you seem to think is effective, and take some kind of delight in repeating again and again, like a little kid who won't stop irritating the bigger kids.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:24 pmComment by patooty: Remember: This is the same man who blew up innocent frogs for sheer pleasure.
And, as Pledge Master at the DKE House at Yale, he branded fraternity pledges with a hot coat hanger bent into the shape of a delta.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pmDo car bombs constitute torture? What about beheading? How about beating women with straps, sticks, chains and whips? Is that torture?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:28 pmI’ll chime in, because I’m sure everyone here is interested in what I think.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
If you think that, then you would be wrong. No one here gives a flying fu(k what you think. If you haven't figured that out by now, you are even dumber than you appear to be.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:30 pmComment by JD Murphy: Democrats are as worthy as disfigured people.
This is at least the second thread you've tossed this into. Please get some help.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:36 pmDo car bombs constitute torture? What about beheading? How about beating women with straps, sticks, chains and whips? Is that torture?
Comment by dj41326
yes, they are tortures and so are waterboardings.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:38 pmokey-dokey Big - it's back to the fistfight then - I don't mind.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:02 pmComment by Shaldag: The basis of the debate is that if we do it, our soldiers will have it done to them too.
This will probably be a little tough for you to understand but the basis of the argument isn't that by torturing prisoners under our control we invite our enemies to torture us. Our enemies have never needed that particular excuse. Rather it's that by employing torture we lose the moral standing to object when it's used by our enemies or demand that the perpetrators face legal sanction.
Get it?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:03 pmMr. Bigfoot. Please look up the legal definition of torture. Please do so. And then I'll gladly discuss with you.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:11 pmWe will never be able to convince those like Bigfoot, CaptainMantastic or the others that waterboarding is not torture. Unfortunately, the only way to drive the point home is to arrest, try and convict certain highly placed officials for war crimes.
I find it sickening that people who are nothing more than scum (Yes, not nice words, but unfortunately true of those I have mentioned) try to turn this into a debate. Both international law and US law long ago concluded that waterboarding was torture. As an Air Force Judge Advocate I taught the law of war. There was no question as to the criminality of the tactict. Our courts have treated it as a crime whether practiced by our own soldiers or law enforcement officers since the late 1800's. We have seen it treated as a crime against humanity when chargers were brought against enemies of the US for using the technique.
It is laughable to see the Republicans and those like Bigfoot resort to the same kind of infantile logic for explaining away their crimes. "The US government does it differently having it approved by government attorneys and the Democrats never outlawed the specific tactic."
Please, this is the same type of logic that I saw from some of the worst criminals that I ever represented or prosecuted. This is a crime mala in se (the wrongness of the act is inherent in its nature) and does not need to be defined as a crime mala prohibitam (more of a regulatory violation that would not be evident to a reasonable person.) The very nature of the technique, no matter how performed, is to make the victim believe that they are drowning. Indeed, it is a controlled drowning. It does not matter how many variations there are to the tactic, the end goal is the same.
Yet we see those fascist supporters (usually with no real knowledge or experience in the area) attempt to down play the act. This misdirection was the obvious purpose of the speech in question.. It was a direct assault on the rule of law by suggesting that every possible method must be individually out lawed. This is the kind of reasoning that I would expect from a drug dealer or organized crime lord and not one truly seeking a just society.
I have no respect for the far right lunatic lawyers that have tried to justify the tactic. The Judge Advocate General of every service rejected the "enhanced"interrogation techniques as contrary to international law and the safety of our soldiers. Every experienced military law expert and international law expert acknowledges that the use of these methods violates international law. Using the President's legal counsel or DoJ attorneys to support their interpretation is no different than Hitler's use of counsel to justify his crimes against humanity.
Frankly, it is time to imprison and even execute a couple of these criminals. We treat these low lifes with too much respect. They deserve no respect, liberty or life. We risk people seeing these people as legitimate when they are subhuman.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:54 pmWord leaks out that you bypassed on the waterboarding that may have produced a lead. Now 3000 San Franciscans are dead. What would you say?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 5:20 pm
That's an easy one. Like any true American president, I would say I had no knowledge of this and find some low level staffer to take the fall, then I would remind people that I did not receive any blow jobs and that I think the rich are unfairly burdened. If I am lucky some silly professional sporting event will be going on
December 12th, 2007 at 5:27 pmCaptainMantastic: I do not appreciate lying. Your hypothetical in comment 293 and your question in 292 makes me suspect exactly that your assertion that you are changing your mind on waterboarding is exactly that.
1. Comment 292. I would agree that if Pelosi had been briefed on water boarding and failed to object that she should suffer severe consequences. However, her failure to act would not arise to a crime either under US or international law. Criminal responsibility would go to those who actively approved of or implemented such actions. I would want Pelosi to be voted out of Congress and lose any position of responsibility. However, the evidence is far from clear. She denied being told of waterboarding. It was a classified briefing and the administration will not declassify any documents associated with it. Harman took Pelosi's position on the committee and did protest to the CIA. Pelosi was apparently consulted on the writing of the letter.
2. Comment 293
Your attempt a ticking time bomb issue is rather pathetic. However:
a. I would not approve waterboarding. In your scenario, we have no idea of who this person is other than a member of the organization. Any idiot knows that such activities are highly compartmentalized. Very few in the organization would know any of the details. Without cooborating intelligence, there would be absolutely no way of evaluating responses.
b. I would make sure that the capture of this individual was highly publicized. Any group as experienced as Al Qaeda would immediately postpone or cancel an attack had the subject possessed valuable information.
c. I would simply tell the American people that we attempted to discover the plans of the enemy as best we could using the most effective interrogation tactics that we had available.
Now let us turn it around. You waterboard and the individual puts up a valiant fight telling you that he knows nothing about an attack. He finally breaks. You picked him up in DC so he starts spilling the beans about a massive bomb effort against WAMATA (DC sbway). Personnel from the FBI, DHS and FEMA are drawn from as far as San Francisco. This activity makes it clear to the terrorist organization that the government has no concept of what is going on. They move up the attack on San Francisco. The government is caught totally flat footed and the administration looks foolish and inept. What do you say to the people?
I would hope that any president would act in the best interests of the United States within the framework of the law. You seem to imply that PR is really the determining factor.
Now, I will tell you the one time that breaking the law is actually excused. The law can be broken when the life or lives of others are at risk. However, the person breaking the law has a high burden to prove that a crime was about to be committed, that the crime would involve the imminent loss of innocent life. The person breaking the law would then have an affirmative defense to his crime.
The classic ticking time bomb scenario where you know that a bomb has been planted, you know that you have a person in your custody that does know where the bomb is hidden and there is no time to take other action would qualify. However, this is just not the case. Instead, it is always that we have a person who may know of other criminal or terrorist activities. There were other ways to obtain the information without breaking the law.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:49 pmto have experienced the greatness of Reaganism first hand.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Like the thousands of innocent people killed in Latin America. Reagan was a shill for unrestrained corporate greed. Reagan worst president until W.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:50 pmTorture is illegal. Waterboarding is torture. The weak kneed b#stards broke the law. Off to jail with anybody doing torture, ordering torture and anybody in a position of power who knew about the torture and did nothing to stop it. Torture is unAmerican. Torture is illegal.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:56 pmYes, it's a lot like swimming, when you don't know how.. or when you have lead cinder blocks strapped to your legs and arms, ..or when you find it the most terrifying moment of your life. It's just like swimming, only underwater for say.. 6 or 7 minutes. When do we get to throw these miserable bastards in jail? I just can't believe they continue to get away with it.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:03 pmI'd like to comment on Kit Bond's answer.
"SEN. KIT BOND: There are different ways of doing it. It’s like swimming, freestyle, backstroke. The waterboarding could be used almost to define some of the techniques that our trainees are put through, but that’s beside the point. It’s not being used"
For his answer of: "It's not being used"
Anybody who uses the internet regurely knows he's a damn liar.
Type in waterboarding at Google.com and tell me how many hits you get.
As for Kit Bond himself:
I grew up in Missouri and I'm so ashamed to have had him as a governor and now a Senator.
And this is what really pisses me off about Kit Bond:
Do a google search or a wikipedia search on him and you find he didn't serve in the military. Ain't that convenient!
A crusty old politician who never served in our military claiming waterboarding is like doing the backstroke. Unfreaking believable!
I suggest Kit Bond undergo waterboarding so he can tell us all if it's torture or not.
I'm placing bets here. Will Kit Bond have the balls to undergo waterboarding?
I've got $500 american dollars that says he's a coward.
Any takers?
Troubled Texan
December 12th, 2007 at 8:26 pmBS…Either you’re lying or your friend is lying.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 12, 2007 @ 2:02 pm
Just to clarify, this person is not a friend, but rather, as I indicated in my posting, "a long-time acquaintance." After he raised this issue, seemed reluctant to provide many details, although he inidicated that he has to use several different usernames in his work.
If he is telling the truth, I have no doubt that he is quite effective, as he seemed to have a rather unique talent for inciting homicidal rage in many who crossed paths with him. As far as I know, he has never been married or in a serious relationship, and didn't appear to have any friends. I would occasionally inquire (in a half-joking manner, since I didn't like him, but didn't want to him to get hurt either) as to whether he'd purchased a remote control starter for his car yet.
I don't know whether he's telling the truth or not, however, I wouldn't put it past the Bush Administration (through some "secret" program) or some wealthy reich-wing organization to quietly fund such operations.
You seem quite confident that this is not occurring. If you can shed further light on this matter, I (and probably several other visitors to this site) would be interested in any definitive information you can provide.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:22 pmWOW!!!! Swimming??? Be proud, Missouri.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:11 pmIf it's just swimming and not torture, then why bother using it?
December 12th, 2007 at 10:37 pmI never heard of "swimming" as a way to get information or a confession. I have however, heard of torture to get information or a confession. You can't have it both ways Mr. Bond. As a matter of record, why don't you try this "swimming" technique. Maybe it will become an Olympic Sport. You have lost my vote.
I'm so tired of the whining about waterboarding. Yes, we are doing this....to the same asshats that will cut off an American's head on video or strap a bomb to them self and kill as many "infidels" as they can. I guess all the left wing mental midgets don't consider beheading torture. When will everyone wake up and smell the shit? Those that hate us have no "rules" and are willing to do whatever they think they need to with no compunction. Until we are willing to accept that they don't think like we do and fight fire with fire, we will be under attack by these crazies. What will it take, the use of a nuke against us here in the west to make everyone realize that the fanatics will do anything they can to harm us? When they do get that nuke, and they will if they have their way (and they will get one if we continue this bs about getting the required intelligence), I hope they blow it while Cindy Sheehan is speaking at the Demo national convention. I bet that would change a few minds about "torture".
December 12th, 2007 at 10:48 pmYou're a brave one, 304 - keep working at it - looks like you're just a day or two away from that mental midget-hood you can't quite reach yet.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:25 pmI'm getting pretty tired of this. I'm ashamed that KO even picked this up, and Rachel Maddow is propogating Kit's comments as well. HE DID NOT MEAN WATERBOARDING IS LIKE SWIMMING!!!!!! What he's comparing is the fact that there are DIFFERENT WAYS of conducting both waterboarding and swimming. This is like the botched joke that arguably cost John Kerry the Presidency, along with thousands of lives. Please do not keep up this ridiculous spreading of Kit's poorly formed analogy. Focussing on the minutae like this only distracts us from the big picture. The US MUST take a firm stand against torture (including WATERBOARDING) and participate fully in international agreements which ban the use of torture. If you just go spreading what some right-wing nutjob says, you'll may as well just spout GW's "We do not torture".
December 13th, 2007 at 2:01 pmso a 1000 people in New Orleans were waterboarded then
December 13th, 2007 at 6:18 pmWow, 304.. you're absolutely right. We know they're the "asshats" that cut off heads, and blow themselves up, because we waterboarded them and they confessed. Why, just the other night, when they released an audio tape of one of the confessions it was clear as day.. I'll post a transcript for those who haven't read it.
"Yes.. (gurgling, sputtering, choking and gasping, unintelligible sobbing) YES!!!! It was me!!!!! (Gurgle, gasping.. more sobbing).. I DID IT!!! I blew myself up with 45 innocent civilians!" (Sputter, choking..) Yes, my mother was in on it!"
Thanks to minds like yours, #304, the world is a much safer place.. (for moron neo-con lemmings.)
December 13th, 2007 at 6:38 pmJust what I would expect....name calling and no rational argument. I am far from a neo-con, about as far as I am from a leftist neo-commie. I consider myself an independent and I actually think about issues, not just spout the same old tired rhetoric that comes from both of our corrupt and morally bankrupt political parties.
Interrogating a live prisoner to admit that he is a dead suicide bomber...another quite "intelligent" argument. If torture isn't effective in some way, why has it been done for as long as history is recorded?
That's the problem with this whole debate (if you can call this thread an actual debate), BOTH sides are so full of sh!t. The right/administration is more than willing to talk about waterboarding...to hide that they are probably doing worse things. The left/anti-war crowd seem to forget that the terrorism problem started long before the present administration came into power. The last administration had chances to capture the leaders and perpetrators of terrorism, including 911, but didn't have the balls to do it (maybe if the prez's balls had been in his pants he would have used them to protect our interests instead of diddling while Rome was starting to burn).
I don't claim that waterboarding isn't torture. But I also consider killing 3000+ souls torture in it's own right. I'm sure that those that lost family, friend and loved ones felt (and still feel) pretty tortured themselves.
Someone mentioned closing the borders if we are serious about the "war on terror"...I agree 100%. Until we clean house in
Washington and actually elect representatives (I use that to refer to all of the gov't) that care about more than getting re-elected and how much they can line their pockets with, nothing at all will change.
I can sum this whole thread (and a lot of the rancor in the our country right now) up as a brick wall arguing with a concrete wall. Both sides are solidly entrenched in there emotional arguments. Maybe a wrecking ball swinging in between both walls and opening up some holes to see through would go a long way to uniting our country again.
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." ~ Abraham Lincoln
December 13th, 2007 at 11:41 pmFirst of all, #304.. I wasn't calling YOU a name.. I just said the world is safer for moron neocon lemmings.. but if the shoe fits, as they say.
Next, the confessions of a suicide bomber..see..that was tongue in cheek humor. But, I'm proud of you. You did figure out that if he suicided himself.. he wouldn't be around to confess. Good job!
ANd lastly, why do people still use torture after all these centuries??? Gee.. why do people murder after all these centuries? My guess is, they're either irrational..or.. they just like it. I mean, really like it. So what kind of nasty magazines do you have under your mattress?
You know, #304.. you want a civil argument about this..and frankly, I'm not capable of having one. Your type are frankly the death of our country. Keep blaming Clinton, while you torch the last remnants of what was a great nation. Don't expect me to be civil. I have nothing but contempt.
December 14th, 2007 at 3:12 amSince I'm a happily married man, the only thing under my mattress are the tucked in sheets. More mindless drivel to cloud the issue...no rational arguments.
And you just prove my point that a rational discussion is impossible with dogma spouting irrational leftists. Yes, I realized that you were speaking tongue in cheek, but you have made no arguments to support your opinion at all, just spouting more bs to confuse the real issues. I wasn't blaming Clinton, I was just pointing out that this mess isn't all of this administrations fault. I don't agree with the current administration on a lot of things, but as an AMERICAN I think that a real dialog between ALL sides is needed. The hatred I see here and on right wing sites just continues to drive a wedge in this country. You just continue to hate that's the way to get your point across....
Main Entry:
1pro·gres·sive
1 a: of, relating to, or characterized by progress b: making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c: of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
From what I've seen here, this site should be called "Think like us or be damned".
December 14th, 2007 at 8:36 pm