ANd lastly, why do people still use torture after all these centuries??? Gee.. why do people murder after all these centuries? My guess is, they’re either irrational..or.. they just like it. I mean, really like it. So what kind of nasty magazines do you have under your mattress?

Since I’m a happily married man, the only thing under my mattress are the tucked in sheets. More mindless drivel to cloud the issue…no rational arguments.

You know, #304.. you want a civil argument about this..and frankly, I’m not capable of having one. Your type are frankly the death of our country. Keep blaming Clinton, while you torch the last remnants of what was a great nation. Don’t expect me to be civil. I have nothing but contempt.

And you just prove my point that a rational discussion is impossible with dogma spouting irrational leftists. Yes, I realized that you were speaking tongue in cheek, but you have made no arguments to support your opinion at all, just spouting more bs to confuse the real issues. I wasn’t blaming Clinton, I was just pointing out that this mess isn’t all of this administrations fault. I don’t agree with the current administration on a lot of things, but as an AMERICAN I think that a real dialog between ALL sides is needed. The hatred I see here and on right wing sites just continues to drive a wedge in this country. You just continue to hate that’s the way to get your point across….

Main Entry:
1pro·gres·sive

1 a: of, relating to, or characterized by progress b: making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c: of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression

From what I’ve seen here, this site should be called “Think like us or be damned”.

Next, the confessions of a suicide bomber..see..that was tongue in cheek humor. But, I’m proud of you. You did figure out that if he suicided himself.. he wouldn’t be around to confess. Good job!

ANd lastly, why do people still use torture after all these centuries??? Gee.. why do people murder after all these centuries? My guess is, they’re either irrational..or.. they just like it. I mean, really like it. So what kind of nasty magazines do you have under your mattress?

You know, #304.. you want a civil argument about this..and frankly, I’m not capable of having one. Your type are frankly the death of our country. Keep blaming Clinton, while you torch the last remnants of what was a great nation. Don’t expect me to be civil. I have nothing but contempt.

Thanks to minds like yours, #304, the world is a much safer place.. (for moron neo-con lemmings.)

Just what I would expect….name calling and no rational argument. I am far from a neo-con, about as far as I am from a leftist neo-commie. I consider myself an independent and I actually think about issues, not just spout the same old tired rhetoric that comes from both of our corrupt and morally bankrupt political parties.

“Yes.. (gurgling, sputtering, choking and gasping, unintelligible sobbing) YES!!!! It was me!!!!! (Gurgle, gasping.. more sobbing).. I DID IT!!! I blew myself up with 45 innocent civilians!” (Sputter, choking..) Yes, my mother was in on it!”

Interrogating a live prisoner to admit that he is a dead suicide bomber…another quite “intelligent” argument. If torture isn’t effective in some way, why has it been done for as long as history is recorded?

That’s the problem with this whole debate (if you can call this thread an actual debate), BOTH sides are so full of sh!t. The right/administration is more than willing to talk about waterboarding…to hide that they are probably doing worse things. The left/anti-war crowd seem to forget that the terrorism problem started long before the present administration came into power. The last administration had chances to capture the leaders and perpetrators of terrorism, including 911, but didn’t have the balls to do it (maybe if the prez’s balls had been in his pants he would have used them to protect our interests instead of diddling while Rome was starting to burn).

I don’t claim that waterboarding isn’t torture. But I also consider killing 3000+ souls torture in it’s own right. I’m sure that those that lost family, friend and loved ones felt (and still feel) pretty tortured themselves.

Someone mentioned closing the borders if we are serious about the “war on terror”…I agree 100%. Until we clean house in
Washington and actually elect representatives (I use that to refer to all of the gov’t) that care about more than getting re-elected and how much they can line their pockets with, nothing at all will change.

I can sum this whole thread (and a lot of the rancor in the our country right now) up as a brick wall arguing with a concrete wall. Both sides are solidly entrenched in there emotional arguments. Maybe a wrecking ball swinging in between both walls and opening up some holes to see through would go a long way to uniting our country again.

“The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.” ~ Abraham Lincoln

“Yes.. (gurgling, sputtering, choking and gasping, unintelligible sobbing) YES!!!! It was me!!!!! (Gurgle, gasping.. more sobbing).. I DID IT!!! I blew myself up with 45 innocent civilians!” (Sputter, choking..) Yes, my mother was in on it!”

Thanks to minds like yours, #304, the world is a much safer place.. (for moron neo-con lemmings.)

Comment by Charles James Napier — December 12, 2007 @ 2:02 pm

Just to clarify, this person is not a friend, but rather, as I indicated in my posting, “a long-time acquaintance.” After he raised this issue, seemed reluctant to provide many details, although he inidicated that he has to use several different usernames in his work.

If he is telling the truth, I have no doubt that he is quite effective, as he seemed to have a rather unique talent for inciting homicidal rage in many who crossed paths with him. As far as I know, he has never been married or in a serious relationship, and didn’t appear to have any friends. I would occasionally inquire (in a half-joking manner, since I didn’t like him, but didn’t want to him to get hurt either) as to whether he’d purchased a remote control starter for his car yet.

I don’t know whether he’s telling the truth or not, however, I wouldn’t put it past the Bush Administration (through some “secret” program) or some wealthy reich-wing organization to quietly fund such operations.

You seem quite confident that this is not occurring. If you can shed further light on this matter, I (and probably several other visitors to this site) would be interested in any definitive information you can provide.

“SEN. KIT BOND: There are different ways of doing it. It’s like swimming, freestyle, backstroke. The waterboarding could be used almost to define some of the techniques that our trainees are put through, but that’s beside the point. It’s not being used”

For his answer of: “It’s not being used”

Anybody who uses the internet regurely knows he’s a damn liar.

Type in waterboarding at Google.com and tell me how many hits you get.

As for Kit Bond himself:

I grew up in Missouri and I’m so ashamed to have had him as a governor and now a Senator.

And this is what really pisses me off about Kit Bond:

Do a google search or a wikipedia search on him and you find he didn’t serve in the military. Ain’t that convenient!

A crusty old politician who never served in our military claiming waterboarding is like doing the backstroke. Unfreaking believable!

I suggest Kit Bond undergo waterboarding so he can tell us all if it’s torture or not.

I’m placing bets here. Will Kit Bond have the balls to undergo waterboarding?

I’ve got $500 american dollars that says he’s a coward.

Any takers?

Troubled Texan

Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 12, 2007 @ 3:12 pm

Like the thousands of innocent people killed in Latin America. Reagan was a shill for unrestrained corporate greed. Reagan worst president until W.

1. Comment 292. I would agree that if Pelosi had been briefed on water boarding and failed to object that she should suffer severe consequences. However, her failure to act would not arise to a crime either under US or international law. Criminal responsibility would go to those who actively approved of or implemented such actions. I would want Pelosi to be voted out of Congress and lose any position of responsibility. However, the evidence is far from clear. She denied being told of waterboarding. It was a classified briefing and the administration will not declassify any documents associated with it. Harman took Pelosi’s position on the committee and did protest to the CIA. Pelosi was apparently consulted on the writing of the letter.

2. Comment 293

Your attempt a ticking time bomb issue is rather pathetic. However:

a. I would not approve waterboarding. In your scenario, we have no idea of who this person is other than a member of the organization. Any idiot knows that such activities are highly compartmentalized. Very few in the organization would know any of the details. Without cooborating intelligence, there would be absolutely no way of evaluating responses.

b. I would make sure that the capture of this individual was highly publicized. Any group as experienced as Al Qaeda would immediately postpone or cancel an attack had the subject possessed valuable information.

c. I would simply tell the American people that we attempted to discover the plans of the enemy as best we could using the most effective interrogation tactics that we had available.

Now let us turn it around. You waterboard and the individual puts up a valiant fight telling you that he knows nothing about an attack. He finally breaks. You picked him up in DC so he starts spilling the beans about a massive bomb effort against WAMATA (DC sbway). Personnel from the FBI, DHS and FEMA are drawn from as far as San Francisco. This activity makes it clear to the terrorist organization that the government has no concept of what is going on. They move up the attack on San Francisco. The government is caught totally flat footed and the administration looks foolish and inept. What do you say to the people?

I would hope that any president would act in the best interests of the United States within the framework of the law. You seem to imply that PR is really the determining factor.

Now, I will tell you the one time that breaking the law is actually excused. The law can be broken when the life or lives of others are at risk. However, the person breaking the law has a high burden to prove that a crime was about to be committed, that the crime would involve the imminent loss of innocent life. The person breaking the law would then have an affirmative defense to his crime.

The classic ticking time bomb scenario where you know that a bomb has been planted, you know that you have a person in your custody that does know where the bomb is hidden and there is no time to take other action would qualify. However, this is just not the case. Instead, it is always that we have a person who may know of other criminal or terrorist activities. There were other ways to obtain the information without breaking the law.

Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 5:20 pm

That’s an easy one. Like any true American president, I would say I had no knowledge of this and find some low level staffer to take the fall, then I would remind people that I did not receive any blow jobs and that I think the rich are unfairly burdened. If I am lucky some silly professional sporting event will be going on

I find it sickening that people who are nothing more than scum (Yes, not nice words, but unfortunately true of those I have mentioned) try to turn this into a debate. Both international law and US law long ago concluded that waterboarding was torture. As an Air Force Judge Advocate I taught the law of war. There was no question as to the criminality of the tactict. Our courts have treated it as a crime whether practiced by our own soldiers or law enforcement officers since the late 1800’s. We have seen it treated as a crime against humanity when chargers were brought against enemies of the US for using the technique.

It is laughable to see the Republicans and those like Bigfoot resort to the same kind of infantile logic for explaining away their crimes. “The US government does it differently having it approved by government attorneys and the Democrats never outlawed the specific tactic.”

Please, this is the same type of logic that I saw from some of the worst criminals that I ever represented or prosecuted. This is a crime mala in se (the wrongness of the act is inherent in its nature) and does not need to be defined as a crime mala prohibitam (more of a regulatory violation that would not be evident to a reasonable person.) The very nature of the technique, no matter how performed, is to make the victim believe that they are drowning. Indeed, it is a controlled drowning. It does not matter how many variations there are to the tactic, the end goal is the same.

Yet we see those fascist supporters (usually with no real knowledge or experience in the area) attempt to down play the act. This misdirection was the obvious purpose of the speech in question.. It was a direct assault on the rule of law by suggesting that every possible method must be individually out lawed. This is the kind of reasoning that I would expect from a drug dealer or organized crime lord and not one truly seeking a just society.

I have no respect for the far right lunatic lawyers that have tried to justify the tactic. The Judge Advocate General of every service rejected the “enhanced”interrogation techniques as contrary to international law and the safety of our soldiers. Every experienced military law expert and international law expert acknowledges that the use of these methods violates international law. Using the President’s legal counsel or DoJ attorneys to support their interpretation is no different than Hitler’s use of counsel to justify his crimes against humanity.

Frankly, it is time to imprison and even execute a couple of these criminals. We treat these low lifes with too much respect. They deserve no respect, liberty or life. We risk people seeing these people as legitimate when they are subhuman.

This will probably be a little tough for you to understand but the basis of the argument isn’t that by torturing prisoners under our control we invite our enemies to torture us. Our enemies have never needed that particular excuse. Rather it’s that by employing torture we lose the moral standing to object when it’s used by our enemies or demand that the perpetrators face legal sanction.

Get it?