CIA ‘furious’ at Kiriakou for talking about torture.
By on Dec 12th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
CIA ‘furious’ at Kiriakou for talking about torture.
On Monday, former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou confirmed to ABC News that al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded on orders from the White House. ABC News now reports that officials at the CIA were “furious” at Kiriakou and pushed for “a Justice Department investigation.” A Justice Department official, however, said that no such investigation is planned.
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The CIA has turned into the CYA
December 12th, 2007 at 4:21 pmThe Justice Department is keeping its powder dry for attacking the Democrats.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:22 pmthat doesn't jibe with the spin we're hearing from the right at all.
who's the fibber???
December 12th, 2007 at 4:22 pmPlant.
This guy is nothing more than that. They are trying to spin torture as not being torture. Sorry, it is what it is.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:24 pmThe spirit of Daniel Ellsberg lives!
December 12th, 2007 at 4:25 pmI wonder how many new bars have, or will sprout up, calling themselves a variant of "The Waterboard." Imagine the inventive decorating that would go into those. Maybe even complete with a "ride."
December 12th, 2007 at 4:26 pmAn investigation into what? To determine if Kiriakou said what he did on television? I don't think you need to be Sherlock Holmes for this one.
As to whether or not Kiriakou broke any CIA regulations or revealed classified material, surely the CIA can verify the legality of Kiriakou's actions just by brandishing their policy handbook. It's hard to believe that any further investigation would be necessary.
If what Kiriakou did was illegal, then charges should be brought up against him. It should make for an interesting trial.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:26 pmwell there ya is, Dix.
wanna play a game of taser tag?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:26 pmtoo timid?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:27 pm#6: "Are taser guns considered torture?"
- - What the DOD needs to invent is a hand-held, portable waterboard. Imagine if that college kid at Kerry's speech had been waterboarded on the spot instead of tasered? "Don't 'board me, bro!" doesn't sound as techie but conjures up some lewd images.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:30 pmWaterboarding is torture. Does it kill you? Is pepper spray considered torture? We pepper spray our own citizens when they are unruly.
Comment by Southern Man — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
Personally, I think having the soles of my feet tickled is torture. But I wouldn't call it "torture" in the same way as waterboarding is.
You ask if waterboarding can kill. Yes -- if you pour enough water into somebody's lungs, it can kill. It can also leave lasting mental injury, which I can't say about pepper-spraying or feet tickling.
John McCain is one of the few people in the spotlight today with some actual street cred on this issue. He says waterboarding is torture. I don't agree with him on everything, but I believe him on this. He's in a position to know.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:33 pmComment by Badmoodman...I wonder how many frats will decide that the waterboard is a great hazing ritual... How about the tequilaboard?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:34 pmYes, Pepper Spray and Tasers are torture.
What happened to the old days when cops weren't big fat doofuses that don't know any martial arts to subdue a suspect. That's what my dad had to learn when he was a street cop. You had martial arts for the peon criminals and a gun for the tough guys. With a baton rap to the knees for those in between.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:34 pmComment by Southern Man — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
###
There is a bit of a difference though. More than 400 people have been held at Guantanamo Bay, for 2-4 years, then released when we realized there was no reason to hold them.
Imagine being taken in by the police and accused of a crime. You deny having committed a crime. So, they pepper spray you and taser you, trying to get you to confess. After a few years, they realize you really didn't commit that crime after all, and they release you.
Or maybe you confess. You didn't really do it, but you want them to lay off with the pepper spray and the taser, so you say that you did it anyway. They ask who you were working with. You say no one, so they taser you. So you give them the first name you can think of - some guy named Exley you heard of on a blog. A few days later, you hear the police taser him in the next room over. In the meantime, the real criminals are getting away and having a good laugh at the police being sent on a wild goose chase.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:34 pmHey Southern Dumba** Man, the standard for torture is not that it can kill you. I'm sure if an American soldier were waterboarded by a foreign government, you'd be freaking out like calling for an invasion. Ironically, water torture was used to extract "confessions" from African-Americans in your holy South in the 20's which led to the reversal of convictions and American soldiers were prosecuted for torture by the military in the Phillipines. You're a moron who is only arguing this because your whole delusionsal right wing construct about "freedom and liberty" is falling apart.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:35 pmWaterboarding is torture. Does it kill you? Is pepper spray considered torture? We pepper spray our own citizens when they are unruly. This torture debate is bullsh*t. Are taser guns considered torture? The word torture has become the new catch phrase for political hacks.
Comment by Southern Man — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
So, Southern Man, torture can only be considered torture if one dies from the method?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:36 pmIt's like a bad Monty Python skit. These people are all reading from a bad script.
I am sure the CIA is 'furious'. I mean they wouldn't even allow Valerie Wilson to state the dates that she worked for the agency, now this chowder head runs around blabbing about interrogations and tactics from a few years ago.
I smell covert ops being used on Americans.
-GSD
December 12th, 2007 at 4:37 pmfair warning - my buddy at the gun show hot-rodded my taser illegally for me, right after he converted my AR-16 to full auto.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:37 pmBS. The CIA is not furious at him for going public. Since it has the power to vet what former agents say publicly (Plame can't even confirm she worked for the CIA undercover for god's sake), the CIA's leadership allowed him go public to deflect some of the damage. As everyone noted, his tale had something for everyone. Let's stop printing press releases leaked by anonymous sources.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:37 pmWhen is someone going to start asking these guys about this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-posner/the-cias-destroyed-inter_b_75850.html
Note also that James Risen of the New York Times has now substantially corroborated Posner's account in his book State of War (p. 187). You can read about the sordid details in "Part 4" here:
http://www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com
December 12th, 2007 at 4:37 pmSouthern Man, don't forget what the Good Book says.
'What you do to the least of mine, you do to me.'
-GSD
December 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pmThe current and legal definition of torture is:
(1) “torture†means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering†means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States†means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
Waterboarding fits this definition. simulating drowing is the threat of imminent death.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pmwait - it's only torture if it kills you? i thought that was just plain old killing?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pmWaterboarding is torture. Does it kill you? Is pepper spray considered torture? We pepper spray our own citizens when they are unruly.
Comment by Southern Man — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
If it killed you it would be murder not torture, dumbass.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:39 pm#13: "How about the tequilaboard?"
- - Shhh, you may be on to something and Ron Popeil could be be lurking.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:39 pmHere's a definition of "torture" so that y'all, including Southern Man, can use the same words. I'd use W's, but he hasn't seen fit to publish it.
American Heritage Dictionary
tor·ture (tôr'chər)
n.
1.
1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
tr.v. tor·tured, tor·tur·ing, tor·tures
1. To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:41 pm2. To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
3. To twist or turn abnormally; distort: torture a rule to make it fit a case.
#19:"It’s like a bad Monty Python skit." -----
At yesterday's Press Briefing, Ms. Perino did an homage to "The Dead Parrot" sketch:
Q. But when you have a former CIA officer, John Kiriakou, now saying that waterboarding was used — since you're saying the interrogations were legal; he’s saying on the record now, waterboarding was used in at least one case. You’re saying waterboarding is legal?
MS. PERINO: Ed, I’m saying I’m not commenting on any specific technique. I’m not commenting on that gentleman’s characteristics of any possible technique. I’ve given you a very general statement about interrogations being legal, limited and -
Q. You just said it was legal.
MS. PERINO: I’m sorry?
Q. You said it was within the legal framework.
MS. PERINO: Yes.
Q. Everything that was done.
MS. PERINO: Yes.
Q. So waterboarding is legal.
MS. PERINO: I'm not commenting on any specific techniques.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:43 pmThis is total arf and whinny.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:45 pm29- where the hell do you live - every other day there's a story in the news of cops shooting someone dead or tasering them to death
most recent - pregnant woman tasered inside police station, where she'd come to comply with a court order.
sell the snake oil somewhere else.
this ain't a WalMart of ideas.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:46 pmif that's "castrated" we need to find a new Veterinarian.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:48 pm"(Plame can’t even confirm she worked for the CIA undercover for god’s sake)"
Comment by po — December 12, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
Which is completely ridiculous, since, at the hearing at which Plame testified, before any testimony was given, it was read into the record that the CIA confirmed that she had been working as a covert CIA agent. So, it's in the record for the hearing, which C-Span broadcast, but she herself can't say it--how hypocritical can they get?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:49 pmI seriously doubt that the CIA is quote "furious" at Kiriakou for anything. I think it's obvious that CIA orchestrated this entire charade to save what remains of their worthless asses! This Kiriakou character more than likely is simply running interference - just trying to muddy the waters so Hayden and his thugs can avoid any type of responsibility.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:49 pmThe CIA, a Bush Family Fiefdom
December 12th, 2007 at 4:50 pmo dixie - do you really think that, in order to condemn our unnescessary torture of foreigners, that we've taken a pass on police brutality?
someone's told you a lot of lies about people like us.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:58 pmi'd bet that, if you and i worked in the same place, we'd get along just fine and agree on more things than you'd ever imagine.
This torture debate is bullsh*t. Are taser guns considered torture? The word torture has become the new catch phrase for political hacks.
Comment by Southern Man
I'll tell you what S&M. We will waterboard you and then you can make an informed decision on the matter.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:59 pmdo you think that i "hate" my kids, when i tell them to "knock off" some stupid shit they're doing?
you must, if you think i "hate" America for doing some stupid shit from time to time.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pmfor christs sake he admits guilt and still nothing done
December 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pmWaterboarding IS a form of torture.
US prosecuted its own soldiers, as well as Japanese after WWII.
We signed Geneva Conventions, and so are bound by these as LAW.
So, Bush and his WAR CRIMINALS continue to break the law.
When the Democratic president get in in 2009, Bush and his CRIMINALS need to be waterboarded until they DROP DEAD.
As an EXAMPLE to future potential "bushes and cheneys".
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pmI find it hard to believe the use of waterboarding has helped us uncover any new intel. Zubaha (?) gave up info that was already known. Also, AQ's number one bad guy hasn't been found even though intel gives us a fairly good idea where he is. If OBL's head was on a stick and it was proven that waterboarding gave us the intel that captured him then most americans would be hard pressed to speak out on waterboarding. The problem is not just the tactic, the the location(s) and the lack of legal representation afforded the detainee. The WWII war crimes treated those prisoners better and justice still prevailed.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pmwaaaaaayyyyyyy too defensive, Dixie. that's outta whack.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pmIf I turned round and said I waterboarded my grandmaother 3 years ago , I would be arrested and imprisoned,,,,,,,,,,,,, what more evidence do you need to do something
December 12th, 2007 at 5:02 pmComment by Southern Man — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
The problem with your premise which I must admit I find weak on its merits alone is that legal precedent has already established waterboarding as torture
December 12th, 2007 at 5:08 pmIf I turned round and said I waterboarded my grandmaother 3 years ago , I would be arrested and imprisoned,,,,,,,,,,,,, what more evidence do you need to do something
Comment by Anjuna Laguna — December 12, 2007 @ 5:02 pm
###
If you said she was a Muslim you would get a Medal of Freedom, a guest appearance on The Weekly Standard, a lecture tour with the AEI, and a book deal with Anne Coulter (don't worry if you are not a good writer, you can just copy). Rush and Hannity would have you on TV, and you'd geta good write up in the National Review.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:10 pmKeith Olberman examined this guy last night on Countdown and he came up rather lacking. Many people feel that this was a set-up by the CIA. You will notice that he claimed that the person they were torturing gave them information after 30 seconds leading to the prevention of terrorist acts. Funny thing, though. No one can document these "terrorist acts" that were prevented because of what the guy they were torturing said. It is also no coincidence that the guy they had "blow the whistle" was not someone who was personally involved with the waterboarding.
He was just a mouthpiece for the CIA to try to 1) prove that waterboarding works so that we won't be disgusted that they did it and 2) declare waterboarding as torture so that the CIA won't be asked to do it again by the Bushies.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:12 pmThis administration continues to confuse their political security with national security, They are not the same!
December 12th, 2007 at 5:12 pmThis is the man that John Kiriakou said was tortured and gave up actionable intel after 30 seconds of waterboarding:
Abu Zubaydah, his captors discovered, turned out to be mentally ill and nothing like the pivotal figure they supposed him to be. CIA and FBI analysts, poring over a diary he kept for more than a decade, found entries "in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3" -- a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. All three recorded in numbing detail "what people ate, or wore, or trifling things they said." Dan Coleman, then the FBI's top al-Qaeda analyst, told a senior bureau official, "This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality."
December 12th, 2007 at 5:13 pm#52 - Sorry I forgot the link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/19/AR2006061901211_pf.html
December 12th, 2007 at 5:14 pmWe waterboard a piece of sh*t in another country, and it becomes a headline. Hate America first.
Comment by Southern Man — December 12, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
We, the US, has prosecuted cases of waterboarding as war crimes. It is according to treaty we are signatories to, and thus by US Law and the Constitution, a crime, and in event of war, a war crime. Period.
Waterboarding is forcing the lungs to fill with water, then you let them cough the water up, then you force their lungs full again. I experienced it in SERE training in the military and one guy almost died from pnumonia after experiencing it in the same POW camp training I was in.
It is torture, it can kill you and it can also cause serious medical complications.
It is only criminals and ignorant fcking idiots that say it is not torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:14 pmHe pointed out that the tapes would have revealed "not just that we had brutally tortured an al-Qaeda operative, but that we had brutally tortured an al-Qaeda operative who was (a) unimportant and low-ranking, (b) mentally unstable, (c) had no useful information, and (d) eventually spewed out an endless series of worthless, fantastical 'confessions' under duress." Those confessions, and others like them, have been the underpinning for much of the government's legal assault on the rule of law in recent years, from free and open trials, to secret expansions of executive powers. Certainly Drum is speculating, just like we are. It's impossible to say for sure what the tapes would have revealed, much less how such revelations might have changed all these recent events. But it's worth trying to refit the pieces, because this evidence was deliberately obliterated. Otherwise, the CIA's act of destruction wins.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:18 pmThe more I read from Southern Man, the more I believe Neil Young was right.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:20 pmWe waterboard a piece of sh*t in another country, and it becomes a headline. Hate America first.
Comment by Southern Man
Well, you want to lead the world, don't you? Keep up.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:21 pmWhen we torture, we are then no better than the enemy we are fighting against. When we torture we become just as evil.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:21 pmIt just seems to me that torture and terror are really closely aligned with each other. At very least, they spawn each other. Both aim to terrorize (indiscriminately) in order to achieve the perpetrator's goal, and both the torturer and the terrorizer rationalize their own actions by the actions of the other. Morality and justice and humanity do not factor into either practice, except that they are the antithesis of both.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:24 pmWe waterboard a piece of sh*t in another country, and it becomes a headline. Hate America first.
Comment by Southern Man
So Southern Man, what would you say if Iran captured one of our soldiers and waterboarded them?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:26 pmWhen we torture, we are then no better than the enemy we are fighting against. When we torture we become just as evil.
Comment by Wayne — December 12, 2007 @ 5:21 pm
Ding...ding...ding...give this man the prize. You are 100% correct. Then there's also the problem of, if we torture our enemies, we will not be in a position to complain if our enemy tortures our soldiers. I fear for our soldiers every day knowing that if they are captured by our enemy, they will most likely be tortured and we will not have the moral authority to complain.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:28 pmKeep on rockin in the free world!!!!!
December 12th, 2007 at 5:29 pmMoral/legal issues aside, is waterboarding even that effective?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html
Kiriakou says Zubaydah provided information that led helped stop some al Qaeda operations. Such as?
You would think that if they wanted to justify the use of waterboarding, that they would provide evidence of how it helps prevent terrorist attacks.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:29 pmWhen we torture, we are then no better than the enemy we are fighting against. When we torture we become just as evil.
Comment by Wayne — December 12, 2007 @ 5:21 pm
BO was confronted with this last night. he brushed off the statement as nonsense.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:30 pm55The more I read from Southern Man, the more I believe Neil Young was right.
Here is Southern Man
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=778_1197065662
has to be the thickest shit Ive ever seen
December 12th, 2007 at 5:36 pmI couldn't watch the whole thing at work. OMG. And that person can reproduce.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:38 pmWord leaks out that you bypassed on the waterboarding that may have produced a lead. Now 3000 San Franciscans are dead. What would you say?
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Can I roll the dices again?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:39 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
I thought we already covered this. I simple get so crazy assed clergy to say it was because of the gays
December 12th, 2007 at 5:40 pmcapt'n, if there was already actionable intelligence then there would be no need to torture anyone. Are you saying that the gathering of intelligence by countless secret agencies isn't enough to go on, but the ramblings of someone we've almost drowned is.
Do you see how thin your argument is?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:41 pmWord leaks out that you bypassed on the waterboarding that may have produced a lead. Now 3000 San Franciscans are dead. What would you say?
Comment by CaptainMantastic
What have we done to people that they hate us, and start there correcting things
3000 Franciscans is nothing to 1.2 million Iraqis
December 12th, 2007 at 5:43 pmYou would think that if they wanted to justify the use of waterboarding, that they would provide evidence of how it helps prevent terrorist attacks.
Comment by RickS
Absolutely and that is why this whole thing smells to high heaven. They really do think that all they have to say is "the intel stopped attacks" and we are going to believe them. Sorry, they used up their "cry wolf" allotment a long time ago. Read the whole article I linked to above telling who this guy was that they tortured.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:44 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
###
So you waterboard him. He tells you all about how he plans to attack NYC. You gear up and protect NYC to the best of your ability. Then San Francisco still gets blown up.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:45 pmWhy do these people hate America
Sampling of Deaths From US Military Interventions & Propping Up Corrupt Dictators (using the most conservative estimates)
Nicaragua 30,000 dead
December 12th, 2007 at 5:48 pmBrazil 100,000 dead
Korea 4 million dead
Guatemala 200,000 dead
Honduras 20,000 dead
El Salvador 63,000 dead
Argentina 40,000 dead
Bolivia 10,000 dead
Uruguay 10,000 dead
Ecuador 10,000 dead
Peru 10,000 dead
Iraq 1.9 million dead
Iran 30,000 dead
Sudan 8–10,000 dead
Colombia 50,000 dead
Panama 5,000 dead
Japan 140,000 dead
Afghanistan 10,000 dead
Somalia 5000 dead
Philippines 150,000 dead
Haiti 100,000 dead
Dominican Republic 10,000 dead
Libya 500 dead
Macedonia 1000 dead
South Africa 10,000 dead
Pakistan 10,000 dead
Palestine 40,000 dead
Indonesia 1 million dead
East Timor 1/3–1/2 of total population
Greece 10,000 dead
Laos 600,000 dead
Cambodia 1 million dead
Angola 300,000 dead
Grenada 500 dead
Congo 2 million dead
Egypt 10,000 dead
Vietnam 1.5 million dead
Chile 50,000 dead
Why do people Hate America part 2
US Use of Weapons of Mass Destruction
The indiscriminate use of bombs by the US, usually outside a declared war situation, for wanton destruction, for no military objectives, whose targets and victims are civilian populations, or what we now call “collateral damage.â€
Japan (1945)
December 12th, 2007 at 5:49 pmChina (1945–46)
Korea & China (1950–53)
Guatemala (1954, 1960, 1967–69)
Indonesia (1958)
Cuba (1959–61)
Congo (1964)
Peru (1965)
Laos (1964–70)
Vietnam (1961–1973)
Cambodia (1969–70)
Grenada (1983)
Lebanon (1983–84)
Libya (1986)
El Salvador (1980s)
Nicaragua (1980s)
Iran (1987)
Panama (1989)
Iraq (1991–2000)
Kuwait (1991)
Somalia (1993)
Bosnia (1994–95)
Sudan (1998)
Afghanistan (1998)
Pakistan (1998)
Yugoslavia (1999)
Bulgaria (1999)
Macedonia (1999)
The whole torture argument is a non-issue. I talk to friends in Iraq every day. I spent a 15 month tour there myself. Soldiers and professionals know that torture is ineffective and useless. The only reason the right-wing is arguing it at all is for the Bud Light NASCAR types that are swayed by gay marriage and flag burning. Just the other day 28 Generals came out against torture.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:49 pmComment by Anjuna Laguna — December 12, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
Sure but how many of those people were "white".?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:50 pmMy question is what would you say to the citizens that count on you for their protection; if the intel was right and terrorists executed the plan you were warned about?
Word leaks out that you bypassed on the waterboarding that may have produced a lead. Now 3000 San Franciscans are dead. What would you say?
Comment by CaptainMantastic
I would say "good for my government". We can't sink any lower into the slime than we are now. I would like to see us rise from the slime and take our place as a respected member of the world community again.
There is no guarantee that waterboarding would have given us the information we needed. As a matter of fact, anecdotal studies of torture show that we would be more likely lead down a false path, thereby losing time to discover the real plot. What ever happened to good old police work? It has served us well for centuries, there is no reason why it won't continue to serve us well into the future.
How many "terrorists" has George Bush brought to trial and convicted of their so-called crimes? One, Jose Padilla, who was tortured and "confessed" due to his torture. He is also at this point certifiable insane due to his treatment in our hands.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:51 pmOh Capt - what is your preposterous Hollywood Hypothetical really supposed to demonstrate??
Here's one, just like it, for you.:
Tomorrow, one of your neighbors molests you Daughter.
You realize that if you'd killed him today, she wouldn't have been molested and scarred for life.
Are you wrong because you didn't commit a murder, or did you not care whether your Daughter was molested? Please choose only one of the available answers, because that's how the game works, right?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:51 pmI guess it would depend on whether she told you what you need to know.
Just kidding. That was a joke. You make a good point.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
Hey, at least you made me laugh with this one. The rest of your comments--not as funny.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:53 pmKiriakou is a *plant*. No retired CIA officer would reveal what the CIA probably considers classified info (who approved what etc what the effect of interogation was) that could lead to the loss of that officer's *pension*. The CIA has such a policy in place so it would be odd that Kiriakou didn't mention that he was coming out for some pressing reason with full knowledge that his retirement pay was on the line (you would do that to try to get public sympathy to prevent the CIA from taking such an action against you).
December 12th, 2007 at 5:53 pm81 - tell that to Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:54 pmSo CaptainMantastic, you asked a question of us and we answered. So, here's one for you.
What would you have to say if your cousin was in Iraq and got captured and then was waterboarded? Would you think that was OK?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:55 pmComment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 5:51 pm
You've been reading Time magazine haven't you?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:57 pmOh, Anjuna, I'm sure there were extremely good reasons for all the deaths that US has produced since WWI in other countries.
Perhaps global hegemony and the defense of American Corp's interests can fit in the list.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:03 pmI don't know where the fu*k you live, but there ain't any castrated cops anywhere near Souther California. They'll beat the sh!t outta you for being in the wrong part of town and I am talking about Irvine, not Compton.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:11 pmI want the Captain to provide an answer to my hypothetical (which is more likely to happen to some one of us in real life than his)
O Captain - where are ya buddy??
December 12th, 2007 at 6:13 pmI would say "I will not let the United States become like our enemy. We are a country of laws, not torturers." Period.
Why the fu*k would you want to sink to their level?
Chicken sh!t.
More people die in car accidents every year than have ever been killed by terrorists. More people die from smoking than have been killed by terrorists. More people have died in Iraq, than died on 9/11.
You are being played, because you are a big fat blubbering pu$$y.
You just don't fu*king get it and you never will.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:21 pmCaptainMantastic seems to have taken a hike once he was asked questions by the posters on this thread. So typical for a Republiscum troll. CAn you think of ANY troll that actually 1) answers questions put to them or 2) backs up what they are saying with proof? I can't.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:25 pmme either - sosdd, i reckon
December 12th, 2007 at 6:27 pm84 - Did Time do a piece on McGovern's outfit?
December 12th, 2007 at 6:28 pmI see Captain Mantastic still doesn't address your question, tom.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:38 pmAre you prepare to say 3000 troops are nothing?
Comment by CaptainMantastic
I thought that it was the US forces the ones who didn´t do bodycount.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:39 pmoh good there he is.
going to give it a shot Capt - I constructed a little hypothetical for you, it's back upthread a ways, but i think you can find it.
it's #79, if you're having trouble.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:41 pmI think it was Mitch McConnell (R-KY) who said 3000 troops were nothing.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:42 pmCapt, remember Tony Snow?
Tony Snow: It's just a number
December 12th, 2007 at 6:44 pmCaptain hasn't answered my question in #84 either. But, then, he doesn't answer questions, he just asks straw-man questions to see if he can get a rise out of us. He doesn't have the balls to answer questions posed to him or to prove the things he says. Typical Republiscum troll.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:46 pmIf you are making a comparision, please remember that when you waterboard someone, they don’t die.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
As usual, a non-answer from a Republiscum troll. So Captain, answer my question. I'll pose it to you again.
Say your cousin was in Iraq and was captured and then waterboarded by the people who captured him. Would that be OK with you? What would you have to say about them torturing your cousin (or in your opinion not-torturing your cousin)?
December 12th, 2007 at 6:49 pmIsn't it interesting that we get different trolls on different threads? Do you suppose the RNC assigns them a "specialty" area where they are the designated troll for that particular subject?
December 12th, 2007 at 6:51 pmCome on Captain, I'm waiting for your answer. Got the balls to give it or are you going to cut and run?
Or, are you thinking up a non-answer to my question like you did for tombaker's question?
December 12th, 2007 at 6:52 pmMore people die in car accidents every year than soldiers have ever been killed in Iraq. More people die from smoking than soldiers have been killed in Iraq.
But this hasn’t stopped you from using the deaths as a reason for withdrawing the troops.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
Well this same logic applies to the number of people killed by terrorist attacks but it hasn't stopped you from wanting to torture people
December 12th, 2007 at 7:17 pmI doubt very much that John Kiriakou spoke with ABC as a whistleblower. So, who was his sponsor and why did they pick ABC?
The fact that the Justice Department has no interest in exploring leaks of classified material in this interview (openly disclosing waterboarding is a leak of classified material) is telling, meaning that somebody in the Whitehouse declassified that data on the spot rather than going through the standard declassification procedures.
Was it that important for the Bush administration to get somebody willing to speak as claim that waterboarding saved lives? If that was the case I think he was less than conclusive on that front. Who, then, is responsible for this little episode?
December 12th, 2007 at 7:19 pmactually Captain, my analogy works just fine - you can omit killing the neighbor and replace it with something else, waterboarding for instance, but it doesn't change the logical structure, and it doesn't change the fact that it blows the validity of your hypothetical out of the water.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:20 pm84 - Did Time do a piece on McGovern’s outfit?
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 6:28 pm
I don't know. I don't tend to read it. I just found their silly hypothetical morality scenarios piece to be totally lame. You point at 79 was my reference
December 12th, 2007 at 7:20 pmIs this d!ck weed addressing me?
Listen fu*kwad. I want the troops out of Iraq because we invaded the country illegally. Your cult leader will stand trial for what he has done.
Come to my neighborhood and say you support Bush and you will get a big wake up call, from my Republican neighbors. Real Republicans no longer support Bush or his illegal war. The only ones that still do are NeoCon traitors such as yourself who "can't figure out if waterboarding is torture. You know damn well it is, you little b!tch.
You are a Nazi supporter and a traitor to this country. I hope you get run over by a truck and taste your own blood before you die.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:25 pmThen CaptainAnntastic wouldn't have cared if Bush was tortured back in 2003?
December 12th, 2007 at 7:26 pmso - according to the Capt's exacting logic, we should live in a state of perpetual suspicion, and exercise every available opportunity to employ whatever questionable methods to obtain information that may (or may not) help us avoid harm.
easier said than done, i'm afraid, Capt.
the point of my analogy was to try to get you to appreciate that, if one of your neighbors were to do your family harm, you could not know in advance which of them it would be - therefore, you could not find the right one to waterboard or kill - all you could do would be to "monday-morning-quaterback" the situation, and conclude you should've done something about the neighbor who did the harm.
same thing applies to what we're doing to people overseas.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:47 pmwhat did i tell you about that grownup language Capt.? trying to shame people for it isn't ever going to change it.
and, Y, I am upset with Nancy. I also never really liked Bill Clinton, but none of that changes where my political compass points.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:59 pmI don't put party above country or constitution - republicans do.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:02 pmAnd I would understand about my cousin being waterboarded.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Wow, you would be ok with your cousin being waterboarded. I feel sorry for your loved ones knowing how little you respect them.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:16 pmNancy Pelosi knew about waterboarding back in 2002 and did not object. Are you also upset with her?
Comment by CaptainMantastic
If this is true, then I will be upset with her as will most people on this board. Most people are already upset with her for taking Impeachment off the table.
The problem is, if she knew, there was nothing she could legally do about it. She could have quit as a Congressperson and then blown the whistle on the administration, at which time she would have been arrested and tried for treason.
You see it's OK for the Bush Administration to leak national secrets, but it's not OK for congress people do do it.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:19 pmI got it. If my cousin had information of a tactical event being planned to kill 3000 innocent Iraqis, and they were waterboarding him in an earnest attempt to stop that from happening; I would understand.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
That wasn't the question and you know it asshat. Is it impossible for you to answer a direct question? I think it is. As usual, you did your non-answer to a direct question. But, you did say that you were OK with your cousin being tortured which says volumes about your humanity.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:24 pmblown the whistle on the administration, at which time she would have been arrested and tried for treason.
Really?
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Absolutely. They are all under strict orders not to divulge anything they hear in these sessions. They are not allowed to take notes and they are not allowed to record what they hear. You don't think if a former US Congressperson blew the whistle on what they learned in one of these secret sessions, that the Bush Administration wouldn't bring them up on charges? You know darn good and well they would.
As I said before, it's fine for the Bush Administration to leak secrets when it serves their purpose, but if anyone else were to do it, they would be prosecuted. They are currently trying to find out who has leaked several other crimes that Bush has committed and I'm sure when they figure out who that person is, they will be put on trial.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:28 pmbilbo. If you want me to obfuscate, think up more difficult hypotheticals.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
I gave you a straightforward hypothetical which you promptly obfuscated. So, let's try again:
Someone you love has been captured by an enemy and that enemy is waterboarding your loved one or torturing them in some other way. Would you think that was OK? Would you be angry?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:31 pm"Waterboarding is torture. Does it kill you?"
What? Torture doesn't kill you unless you are tortured to death. I really don't get what you are asking.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:22 pm"You seem to be implying that we are waterboarding people willy nilly; I don’t know for fun? Just cause we hate Muslims? Your scenerios aren’t really hitting the mark."
I saw the pictures of Abu Ghraib. I am thinking that hillbilly skank was enjoying herself quite a bit.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:23 pmWaterboarding is a troubling moral question (that Kiriakou admitted was troubling, but also effective). If you put yourself in the President’s shoes after 9/11 (and also Pelosi’s; she knew) you could understand the temptation to use the technique. Being responsible for the country and the safety of its citizens; it’s probably easier to answer to those questioning the ethics of waterboarding a few high intel value terrorists, then it would be to answer why you didn’t do more to defend us after another terror strike on the order of 9/11.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 12, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
Bullshit, plain and simple. Just bullshit. You have no morals.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:55 pm"Waterboarding is a troubling moral question (that Kiriakou admitted was troubling, but also effective)."
I am just going to have to agree with Lefty Patriot. Sure, it is effective...if what you are looking for is getting someone to confess...whether they did or not. A lot of people will say anything to NOT DIE. Just look at history. Let's do an experiment. Come on over, Captain...I will waterboard you and see if I can get you to admit you killed Abe Lincoln. I bet I can.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:05 pmall forms of torture should be illegal, period. in the unlikely, remote chance someone tortures somebody and it prevents the next 9-11, or whatever ridiculous "ticking time bomb" meme the flaghumping "48" crowd is spouting these days, no jury of 12 fellow americans would convict such a torturer, and in the freakishly remote chance they did, a judge would sentence him to probation. and in the freakish chance it got that far, whoever was the current president would have a great free PR opportunity, which he would undoubtedly take, by pardoning this torturer/hero. making something illegal doesnt mean you get aids and die if you do it....thats what most people have a hard time understanding..
December 13th, 2007 at 6:25 am"I am also trying to get some here to be less quick to condemn the leadership. If you were personally responsible for the safety of Americans after 9/11, you might consider the idea of waterboarding more than the monday morning quarterbacks comfortably criticizing from our keyboards."
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Ah, we finally get down to the meat of the matter. The paid trolls are sent here to try to win the hearts and minds of the Progressives. Maybe if Bush wasn't such a foolish puppet for his neocon, chickenhawk advisers like that dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the like he might have been able to understand the opinions of decades of CIA research that clearly shows that you can't trust intel gained from torturing people. Seems like at the time, he was convinced by his fascist power hungry circle along with the assurances of his legal team who would tell him anything to justify this Administrations agenda. They are all actually convinced that the President can break any laws he wants with no consequences. Unfortunately even the president is bound by the laws of America, where ALL men are equal in the eyes of the law. THIS was the intentions of our forefathers. Now that the sh*t is hitting the fan and all the kings men are running for cover they cling to the remote hope that Americans will forgive this puppet because. as wev'e all heard the mantra over and over, "9/11 changed everything."
December 13th, 2007 at 9:06 amThis simply doesn't wash with most Americans be they Dem, Rep or Ind. Waterboarding IS torture. Has been considered such in this country and the International community for hundreds of years. The army field manual specifies it as torture so I can't see how they can justify reclassifying it just because their lawyers said so. Torture IS against American laws. If the evidence trail points at the WH so be it. I grant this boy king no leniency in doing things he knows are illegal and untrustworthy. Poor neo fascists, your time is almost up. Sorry captain, I'm not buying your sh*t and neither are any other readers here with a sense of morals and an ounce of TRUE patriotism towards this Country that we love and so dearly want back from the neocons, zionists, big business and the defense contractors.
People were concerned about more terror attacks after 9/11, that’s when Bush made the tough decisions that you are complaining about today and that’s when your Democrat leaders supported him.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — December 13, 2007 @ 9:11 am
Yup, we supported him, until we realized that Bush was a LIAR and that he diverted the attention from Osama, the 9/11 MASTERMIND,
to Iraq, which had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.
Of course, you Rapeublics are such goose-steppers that you followed right along with your WAR CRIMINAL Bush.
When the Dems realized that Bush was a LIAR and a WAR CRIMINAL, they CORRECTLY stopped supporting Bush.
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 13th, 2007 at 10:45 amDo you believe former CIA agent John Kiriakou's open discussion of Waterboarding of Abu Zubayda amounts to disclosing state secrets?
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1347
.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:17 pm