Gitmo legal adviser says waterboarding evidence is ok.
By on Dec 12th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Gitmo legal adviser says waterboarding evidence is ok.
During a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing yesterday on the “The Legal Rights of Guantanamo Detainees,” the military’s legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay Brig. Gen. Thomas W. Hartmann “wouldn’t rule out the possibility that statements by suspected terrorists subjected to waterboarding…could be used at hearings being conducted at Guantánamo Bay.” “If the evidence is reliable and probative and the judge concluded it is in the interest of justice to use that evidence,” it would be admitted, said Hartmann. Watch it:
[flv http://video.thinkprogress.org/2007/12/HartmannWaterboardingEvidence.320.240.flv]
The Pentagon blocked former Guantanamo prosecutor Col. Morris Davis from testifying. Davis would have called evidence from waterboarding “unreliable.”
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It’s SO ok that we have to burn it, and that’s really OK.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:03 pmThat the whole thing is it not? They used a whole pile of ‘evidence’ from waterboarding to ‘detain’ others. If you throw out what they have from waterboarding, they have shit. Nothing. And those in the know are very aware that the ‘evidence’ is worthless.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:05 pmJeez…it’s just one waterboarding thread after another these days. And, yes, I’m willing to state that it constitutes torture to keep discussing this topic ad nauseum! At the end of the day, the only solution is to vote out the people that put our country on this slippery slope and then be vigilant that it never happens again.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:09 pmSurely this must one of the reasons that is included in Naomi Wolf’s recent book The End of America of how fascism seems to be manifesting itself in today’s United States. Have the state control the military so that it it is in a better position to control the citizens of this country. Apparently the last thing that should be happen at a Senate Committee hearing is for a dissenting voice to be heard against the government.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:10 pmI six years, they’ve gotten on conviction. A seven month plea deal. What the heck are they doing? Getting a law degree part-time?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:11 pmI am curious on the opinion of the TP Court on the issue – the specific issue – of the evidence obtained from waterboarding Zubdayah which in turn led to the capture of KSM which stopped attacks and saved lives.
I have not heard anyone involved dispute the facts of this situation: in this instance, waterboarding captured AQ terrorists stopped attacks and saved lives.
Was the decision to waterboard in that specific case morally justified?
I understand the guy – Karikou? – who was saying that now thinks waterboarding is no longer needed. But what about that particular situation?
The implication of saying yes is that in certain extreme situations waterboarding IS okay. Saying no is saying you are willing to see innocents die in order to spare terrorists simulated drowning.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:17 pmJeez…it’s just one waterboarding thread after another these days. And, yes, I’m willing to state that it constitutes torture to keep discussing this topic ad nauseum!
Comment by Menehune — December 12, 2007 @ 8:09 pm
Hear hear! If you are not willing to either debate waterboarding or the destruction of tapes of waterboarding you are cut out of half the threads anymore….
December 12th, 2007 at 8:21 pmK – there’s no way of telling whether that information would defintely not have been obtained (from him or from others) without the board. I’m not taking a side, just pointing out that it’s stuff we can’t know. I do know that the example is being used as a post hoc justification of the whole program, and I don’t think it rises to the occasion.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:23 pmSo the US of A, and all it’s ever stood for, is to be sacrificed to protect one war criminal, eh?
Heck Of A Job, America. You’ve done something Osama Bin Laden could not have done in his wildest anti-American wet dream.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:24 pmMaybe we should ask these guys the following question.
If American troops (uniformed) or intelligence agents (non-uniformed) are captured and detained by our enemy (whomever it is at that point it time), and as part of their interrogation they are waterboarded, because we waterboard our enemies, are you ok with this?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:30 pmWonderful. If it’s ok for us to use evidence gained through torture to prosecute someone we have captured, then it will be OK for our enemies to use evidence they gain through torture. Don’t these guys see the slippery slope they are on? What has happened to their humanity, assuming they ever had any in the first place?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:32 pmI am curious on the opinion of the TP Court on the issue – the specific issue – of the evidence obtained from waterboarding Zubdayah which in turn led to the capture of KSM which stopped attacks and saved lives.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
You are assuming that was the case, they really got good intel from this guy that stopped further attacks. Since you drink the kool-aid, please tell me, if this is true, why have they not provided us with evidence as to what attacks were prevented.
Then read the following and tell me if this sounds like someone who had any actionable intel:
This is the man that John Kiriakou said was tortured and gave up actionable intel after 30 seconds of waterboarding:
Abu Zubaydah, his captors discovered, turned out to be mentally ill and nothing like the pivotal figure they supposed him to be. CIA and FBI analysts, poring over a diary he kept for more than a decade, found entries “in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3″ — a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. All three recorded in numbing detail “what people ate, or wore, or trifling things they said.†Dan Coleman, then the FBI’s top al-Qaeda analyst, told a senior bureau official, “This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality.â€
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/ content/ article/ 2006/ 06/ 19/ AR2006061901211_pf.html
December 12th, 2007 at 8:36 pmSaying no is saying you are willing to see innocents die in order to spare terrorists simulated drowning.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
I say no to waterboard no matter what. Is that clear enough?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:37 pmMaybe we should ask these guys the following question.
If American troops (uniformed) or intelligence agents (non-uniformed) are captured and detained by our enemy (whomever it is at that point it time), and as part of their interrogation they are waterboarded, because we waterboard our enemies, are you ok with this?
Comment by MiMiCcs
And the answer will be (pick one):
I am not prepared to answer that question.
I can’t answer that question.
I can’t recall the question you asked.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:38 pmSaying no is saying you are willing to see innocents die in order to spare terrorists simulated drowning.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
No, saying no is saying that we are better than our enemies and we are not willing to stoop to their level to get questionable intelligence from people who are being tortured.
Are you ok with our enemies torturing our captured soldiers Keltoi?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:39 pmKeltoi, the Bush regime has never been very good at telling the truth. therefore, the “evidence” that waterboarding worked in that one case is hearsay, unless video of the session is available. Proof is needed. Even at that, we will have proof of an American war crime. So, the answer to your foolish question is NO, we should never torture, under any circumstances. we are A,ericans, and, up until bush stole the presidency, we were quite capable of defendin ourselves and capturing terrorist criminals, as in ‘93. You have no justification for this inhuman act whatsoever, if you claim American citizenship.
is that clear enough?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:41 pm6 — here’s someone [Ron Suskind, "The One Percent Solution"]:
>
December 12th, 2007 at 8:43 pmQuick clarification please. How can the Pentagon prevent a General from testifying? Can’t the Congress just subpoena the General to testify?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:44 pmI know little about the law, but I know this Hartmann ass-wipe is a whacko. Maybe he should try the pulpit next.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:44 pmJason – apparently not. I didn’t catch the declaration of martial law either, but there must’ve been one, because now the DoD dictates everything that happens of doesn’t happen in Washington.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:46 pmKeltoi’s running his own variation on the “false-choice” for us.
It’s a cheap parlor-trick of rhetoric, and I don’t know anyone sucker enough to fall for it.
It would be enough to get a D on a philosophy paper with, though.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:48 pmPeople who are willing to torture others to feel safe, are not worth saving.
Comment by BARTLEBEE
Excellent.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:49 pmexactly, bartlebee – that kind of “defense” is a kind I’ll gladly do without, come what may.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:50 pmLet’s waterboard the drug mules to get to the big cats. Think about how many lives it will save!
We can waterboard accused murderers and rapists… no, not even accused, just suspected, to get confessions. Think about how much money in wasted trials it will save. And all those who would have been killed or raped by the suspect in the future will be saved!
While we’re at it lets waterboard Cheney and Bush to make them tell us how the constitution is just a G*D* piece of paper. Then waterboard them until they sign their resignations.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:50 pmPeople who are willing to torture others to feel safe, are not worth saving.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — December 12, 2007 @ 8:47 pm
That is pretty good, I will admit.
I have said the debate on TP on this issue changed my view of it. The recent revelation about exactly what use the method was put to and what was gained by it (Lefty, they could be lying, I’ll grant you, but it is impossible to debate the issue if we can’t agree to the terms of the issue) threw it into a very stark light.
Okay, follow up moral question: someone you love is killed in one of the attacks that WAS NOT prevented because waterboarding WAS NOT used on Zubdayah. Would you be angry the government hadn’t used the technique or proud that your son/wife/mom/friend was a martyr to the cause of America being better than its enemies?
December 12th, 2007 at 9:03 pmThe problem is, we must believe that a government who commits torture in secret prisons is telling us the truth when it says that torture has saved lives. Worse, 30% of the population blindly believes whatever this government tells them to believe.
As far as the point of the thread, that evidence obtained under torture may be admissible, that is correct. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 allowed the Government to use statements elicited under torture to convict someone and sentence that person to the death penalty. And the accused will never know that the statements were obtained through torture, and will never be allowed to challenge those statements. Courts of Appeal cannot touch evidentiary findings either.
It’s only a matter of time when the Government declares all who speak out against it are enemy combatants.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:06 pm17 —
December 12th, 2007 at 9:08 pmZubaydah was described in public by Bush… as “one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States.†But… CIA analysts came to the conclusion that Zubaydah was little more than a travel agent… Nonetheless, Zubaydah was water-boarded, beaten, threatened, subjected to mock executions, and… Under such duress… (Zubaydah) said yes over and over again when asked if Al Qaeda was interested in bombing shopping malls, banks, supermarkets, nuclear plants, apartment buildings, and water systems… After each vague affirmation, the “information†was quickly cabled back to Washington, where it ended up in the president’s daily briefing and in FBI warnings that invariably leaked to the media. Many of the breathless and panicked warnings of Al Qaeda plots that marked the Bush-Cheney administration’s first term, with its periodic orange alerts that came to nothing, came from Zubaydah’s interrogation.
Keltoi’s running his own variation on the “false-choice†for us.
It’s a cheap parlor-trick of rhetoric, and I don’t know anyone sucker enough to fall for it.
It would be enough to get a D on a philosophy paper with, though.
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 8:48 pm
I disagree. The future Jack Bauer scenario might fall under the false choice fallacy, and I have surrendered on that point in favor of NOT waterboarding. But this is past event – we can’t change what happened, and it seems like all those who have firsthand knowledge of it agree on what happened – with the caveat to Lefty that they could all be lying.
So I do think it is valid to measure the use of this technique on Z. and KSM and its saving of lives versus not using it and suffering more death and more suffering.
BTW, tombaker, I have taken many Philosophy courses and have never gotten a D on anything ;)
December 12th, 2007 at 9:08 pm#27 At last we get a real debate. The Bush cabal has put a phony wall between us.
Yes, I would be upset if any and all means were not used to save my loved one. I would be wrong if I condoned torture. My decision would be emotional, not logical and not legal. One must believe that real evidence can be obtained from torture to go farther with your premise. “Evidence” obtained via torture is worthless, as many studies have shown.
Check out the wiki on waterboarding. Verrry interesting.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:12 pmWould you be angry the government hadn’t used the technique or proud that your son/wife/mom/friend was a martyr to the cause of America being better than its enemies?
Comment by Keltoi at Night
Oh, you can go further:
Would I be angry if the government didn’t jail or kill all the POSSIBLE SUSPECTS that could have participated in any way in the terrorist act that killed my family?
December 12th, 2007 at 9:17 pm27 – there’s too many “if’s” in your scenario. It cannot be proven in advance that torture would elicit correct information in time to save a life. Too often, the person tortured will say anything, implicate anyone, to end the torture. That’s why it is so unreliable as to be banned by every civilized nation in the world.
If torture was not used, and a loved one of mine died, it is because it was their time to die. period. I would be glad my government did not stoop to committing atrocities.
Let’s look at the flip side. If torture was used, and as a result, it was conclusively proved that the torture saved the life of my loved one, should I praise God and give God thanks that we could commit one atrocity to prevent another? Is one sin more acceptable in God’s sight than another?
Are we so omniscient that we know who should be tortured and who should not be tortured? Or do we merely accept the fact that we will torture innocent people, in the hope of finding the guilty?
How many innocent people is it ok to torture? One? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand?
How do you ask an innocent person for forgiveness after having tortured him or her?
How do you ask your enemy not to torture your loved ones once your enemy knows you torture his or her loved ones?
December 12th, 2007 at 9:20 pmBris
*clapping*
December 12th, 2007 at 9:22 pmWell, Keltoi, that’s a pretty good question, very sad it has to asked at all, in the country where the leaders of our society pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to establish an Enlightened governmet. Of course I would be proud of my family members, but that really misses the point entirely. This whole discussion merely shows what an amoral pack of curs has taken our country down to their levels. No civilized country discusses, never mind uses, torture. We have been reduced, in the eyes of the world, to savages and inhuman sociopaths by the likes of Bush and Cheney.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:23 pmK – ackowledged, but i do think you’re relying on a post-hoc justification, which doesn’t take us very far. we could justify gobs of things we don’t want, by that method.
glad to hear you’ve taken some philosophy – i will promise not to be a combative smartass with you in the future in light of that.
i made the mistake of majoring in it, and now i’m stuck in a world i know for certain is woefully misdirected.
sometimes i’d rather be one of Ibsen’s “Wild Geese”
December 12th, 2007 at 9:24 pmbut that’s how it goes,
I’ll settle for a little grey goose instead.
this would all be much easier, if our leaders had stuck to our core principles in the first place.
since they chose not to, we all get to deal with trying to stuff the cats back in the bag.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:25 pmOkay, follow up moral question: someone you love is killed in one of the attacks that WAS NOT prevented because waterboarding WAS NOT used on Zubdayah. Would you be angry the government hadn’t used the technique or proud that your son/wife/mom/friend was a martyr to the cause of America being better than its enemies?
Comment by Keltoi at Night — December 12, 2007 @ 9:03 pm
Moral Question A: If someone I love was raped and murdered, would I want to track down the guilty party and pour hot lead up his ass?
Answer: Yes. Repeatedly.
Moral Question B: Is this the basis for civilization?
Answer: No. An eye for an eye is not the basis for civilization. Some confidence must be placed in society to exact justice.
Do we sacrifice civilization for a moment of illusory security?
December 12th, 2007 at 9:33 pmI might add that the whole waterboard discussion is somehow superficial. This is a method employed to find out about the whereabouts and activities of some criminals, right?
But, the question is what is the motive of those criminals?
Why nobody ever addresses this issue with seriousness? We just got the news of the bomb in Algeria, and some bad folks in some caves plotting another crime. And we can talk about who is the leader, who finances the organization, etc. but we the core of the terror issue will never be touched, because it is irrelevant if the only tool I have is a mighty war machine, it is irrelevant to make profits and it is irrelevant to me (the common people) because I don’t want to know anything, I just want retaliation.
And well, that’s where we are, sadly.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:42 pmHere’s something to think about next time you travel out of the country…
Let’s say you have an unpleasant exchange with someone, they report you to the authorities (whether their charges are valid or not), you are arrested and detained, and upon questioning, authorities become convinced that you are a spy and are withholding important information.
They place you in solitary confinement, with constant loud music, constant light or darkness, extreme heat or cold conditions, and then waterboard you during questioning, determined that you will eventually admit to whatever they suspect you might have done. Once you’ve “confessed”, they then display your photo in newspapers and on television, as proof that the United States is sending spies to infiltrate their country, in part, to solidify support of the people for their leaders (fear can serve as a powerful unifying factor, just ask the Bush Administration).
If the “standards” of the United States are applied to you, this forced confession will result in your conviction and punishment. Although this would be an unfortunate circumstance anywhere, it could be catastrophic in Saudi Arabia, which is ruled by long-time Bush family friends. As of November 25, 2007, according to FOXNews.com, Saudi Arabia had carried out its 136th beheading of the year, in which a sword is typically used. These executions are usually held in public.
Under such a circumstance, do you seriously think that the U. S. government will come to your rescue?
December 12th, 2007 at 9:44 pmAnswer: No. An eye for an eye is not the basis for civilization. Some confidence must be placed in society to exact justice.
Do we sacrifice civilization for a moment of illusory security?
Comment by gummitch — December 12, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
Ironically, an eye for an eye WAS the basis of civilization in the beginning, as in Hammurabi’s Code, written in, of all places, what is now Iraq. An eye for an eye is a cardinal foundation of the rule of law, and that is an historical fact.
Obviously, Civilization has evolved. Or has it? OUR Civilization, Western Civilization, has evolved, or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Meanwhile, back in Babylon, nothing much has changed. So in the much ballyhooed Clash of Civilizations we have a major dichotomy. Use their tactics, you are no better than them. Use your overwhelming power, you betray yourself. Try to force them to become what you view as “civilized” and you are in a quagmire. Ignore them, they come for you ala 911.
It is hardly surprising this issue leads to so much acrimony and debate, and it is tied into the overall Gordian Knot that is the West’s historic experience in Southwest Asia. You can understand why Alexander did what he did. And he had Aristotle as a teacher!
December 12th, 2007 at 9:49 pmIt sounds like Nazi occupied Poland to me…or Saddam’s Iraq. We have come so far.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:56 pmBut, the question is what is the motive of those criminals?
Comment by Juan C. — December 12, 2007 @ 9:42 pm
How can we ever know?
If you read their manifestos, it is the establishment of a New Caliphate and the conversion of the world to Islam.
Lots of people here think it was to help Bush invade the ME to control the oil.
Some few people think Israel did it and there is no AQ.
I tend to take them at their word and believe this is a Religious War to AQ and the Wahhabists throughout the ME. That being the case, the chances of peace seem remote.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:58 pmHow bout neither?
How bout life sucks and you deal with it, but you don’t turn into a gestapo pig torturing c0cksucker just to hang onto it.
:|
How bout that?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — December 12, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
Well, life does suck, but fortunately you have to die of something…
December 12th, 2007 at 10:00 pmOUR Civilization, Western Civilization, has evolved, or we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
2 fallacies here:
1) Western Civilization has evolved? = Western Corporations exploit EVERY DAY inhumanely millions and millions of people that work for them. Africa was savagely divided (Belgium invented appartheid) and its resources are under Western dominance. Western civilization dropped two nuclear bombs. Western civilization created WWI and WWII, Nazism, Stalinism, WMDs. Yes, Eastern guys are no better, of course, but have we evolved… into what?
2) How do you know Eastern civilizations don’t discuss these issues?
December 12th, 2007 at 10:01 pmKeltoi at Night:
I remember they use to cut off the hands of thieves and cut out peoples tongues for lying. If we still maintained those standards there would be a lot of handicapped, mute republicans
December 12th, 2007 at 10:03 pmHow bout life sucks and you deal with it
Comment by BARTLEBEE — December 12, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
Does this axiom also apply if the government doesn’t buy life saving medicine for you and yours when you can’t afford it yourself…?
(We were agreeing too much, B., I wouldn’t want you to have to cancel your invites to the smackdown..;)
December 12th, 2007 at 10:07 pmIf I read a Klan (christians) manifesto, it would say a lot of kooky stuff too – I would still be mistaken if I generalized their manifesto to all Americans (christians).
Take them at their word, sure, but don’t grant them more power and influence than they actually have.
Iran, which I don’t think is being managed by the sane, is nonetheless a very western-thinking, secular country at street level, and has come a long way in spite of being held back by an oppressive Theocracy. Lebanon and Syria too – very cosmopolitan in their cities, and “liberal” in their thinking, compared to say Saudi Arabia, yet still locked into the age-old, Theistic squabbles they’ve suffered for ages.
I think if those countries could do no more than adopt the kind of church-state separation that used to be observed here they would leap forward light years, and that’s not pie-in-the-sky hoping.
If the government of Israel would act on the will of the majority of its citizens, there’s no telling how much closer we’d get. It’s really that close to reality, and only the mulish wills of the “old guard” on all sides is holding back the process.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:09 pmIf they are going to say, “we don’t torture” they must live up to it. If they are going to torture, they should own up and let history judge.
And, either way, it creates a nice distraction from the fact that the U.S. is operating “political prisons” in the first place. I find it very hard to accept the indefinite detention of the suspected associates of suspected terrorists.
I don’t care what their suspected crimes are. If we don’t take the moral high ground in our actions, we have no right to condemn the “barbarity” of others.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:10 pm1) Western Civilization has evolved? = Western Corporations exploit EVERY DAY inhumanely millions and millions of people that work for them. Africa was savagely divided (Belgium invented appartheid) and its resources are under Western dominance. Western civilization dropped two nuclear bombs. Western civilization created WWI and WWII, Nazism, Stalinism, WMDs. Yes, Eastern guys are no better, of course, but have we evolved… into what?
2) How do you know Eastern civilizations don’t discuss these issues?
Comment by Juan C. — December 12, 2007 @ 10:01 pm
1.) It is all on a sliding scale, no one is perfect. If the tables were turned, and it was the East that had undergone the Industrial Revolution while the West stuck to chainmail and swords, do you think they would suffer the moral dilemmas we do in the exercise of their power? I have long thought that the East lives in the Shadow of the Mongol effect. If you look at places conquered by Ghengis Khan and his successors – most of Eurasia – you find a stark contrast in their attitude toward human rights and those that weren’t part of the Mongol Empire.
2.) I was speaking of AQ in particular, but NK, China, Burma, Iran, SA, Iraq – again, all victims of the Mongol yoke – I don’t think they have discussion like this, no. Either they are the regular folk who just hope it doesn’t happen to them or they are the predators who figure out how to do it to each other and keep the regular folk afraid, not unlike how you described Mexico a few nights ago.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:16 pmI remember they use to cut off the hands of thieves and cut out peoples tongues for lying. If we still maintained those standards there would be a lot of handicapped, mute republicans
Comment by Saint Augustine — December 12, 2007 @ 10:03 pm
A Tweety “HAH!” to you, Saint Augustine!
December 12th, 2007 at 10:18 pmI don’t care what their suspected crimes are. If we don’t take the moral high ground in our actions, we have no right to condemn the “barbarity†of others.
Comment by pete — December 12, 2007 @ 10:10
This is a philosophical point based in idealism, and as such is unassailable, even if I had the heart to do it.
How many people have we waterboarded? We can’t know. Most sources I have read/heard say it is a very small number. If you take the position that one is too many, I respect that. But I can understand how moral men and women in the US government would see it as their duty to protect American lives, even at the price of violating their own moral code.
In a way, it is the old “do you strangle Hitler in his crib” argument. Do the ends justify the means? I do not think there is an absolute right or wrong answer to that old chestnut, but again, I respect those that say the ends never justify the means. I also realize that AQ and its tactics – sucide bombing marketplaces in particular – is the ultimate expression of the ends justifying the means and they just happen to be our enemies. Not a good hand of cards to play.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:27 pmYour premise is ridiculous.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — December 12, 2007 @ 10:33 pm
Of course it is, I was just tossing you a softball.
AND, much as I am loving this discussion and the high quality of folk it has drawn and the absence of the shrill shriekers, I gotta go, the Fam is giving me that look. I’ll try to check in later to see if you have all solved it.
If not, a pleasant evenning to you all!
December 12th, 2007 at 10:41 pmHey Bart old buddy
just caught up to this, on another thread:
“The only thing I find the least bit noteworthy about you Tom Baker, is your intitials, like your logic, represent a communicable disease.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — December 12, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
December 12th, 2007 at 10:43 pmRecommend (0) | Report Abuse “
just wanted to let you know
you’re a punk*ss little b*tch, who makes us all look bad with your bad-ass tweeker ranting on every thread
thanks for giving Righties more ammo to use against us
you’re really doing us all a big favor
running your loud mouth.
now you’re welcome to stay here, by yourself
and feel all righteous and sh*t
congratulations, *sshole
December 12th, 2007 at 10:47 pmAmerica has now become like the Communist Russia, China, North Korea, East Germany and Vietnam who also used waterboarding. Now Americans should have no problem when a soldier or American is kidnapped and tortured by waterboarding. Who would have thought that the United States of America would sink so low as to become Communist and use their policies. At lease all that talk about how Iran and Syria torture prisoners mean nothing compaired to how the US tortures it’s prisoners.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:56 pm“The American who needs torture to keep safe, does not need to be saved.”
Agreed, I would say that America should not be saved.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:01 pmThe American who needs torture to keep safe, does not need to be saved.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — December 12, 2007 @ 10:56 pm
I have question for keltoi, or any troll. I’ve asked it several times of late, and they all refuse to answer.
The CIA has stated that it quit waterboarding in 2005. If true, why was waterboarding essential to national security? If it worked so well, wouldn’t they still be using it? There are certainly still terrorists out there looking to attack. So why stop?
Or are they lying and haven’t stopped?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:04 pmI agree with the sentiment that a torturing America should not be saved.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:08 pmNow, if you are not Bartlebee, perhaps you should get your own handle.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:09 pmI agree with the sentiment that a torturing America should not be saved.
Comment by Sabyen91 — December 12, 2007 @ 11:08 pm
Well, it does put us on the same playing field w/ the Inquisition, the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese, and the Khmer Rouge.
Quite a foursome for golf, no?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:12 pmIf you ARE Bartlebee, stop referring to yourself in the 3rd person. It just makes you sound like Rickey Henderson (i.e. like a jack-ass)
December 12th, 2007 at 11:16 pmSabyen=JPark. That is the only other handle I have had. I am somehow thinking that this Bartlebee is fake. And it is crap.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:17 pmWhether you are Bartlebee or not…you are a tool.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:22 pmpunkass.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:22 pmparanoid alcoholic.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:22 pmTime to go hang out on a different thread.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:23 pmBartlebee=Mr. P=mighty aphrodite
December 12th, 2007 at 11:30 pmThat is just stupid, Bartlebee. We have already won the waterboarding war. To be a successful troll you have to distract from topics that you actually have an argument in.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:37 pmleave him here to shadowbox his inner demons, Sayben
Bugaboo’s next stop: underside of an overpass, just him and his mighty, righteous shopping cart.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:41 pmYou are right, tombaker. I am starting to feel bad. He is clearly multiple or at the least pschitzophrenic.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:42 pmBTW, tombaker, you were the best Dr. Who :)
December 12th, 2007 at 11:43 pmFine, Bartlebee is a reverse troll. Classy.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:53 pmSO WATERBOARDING IS OK HUMMM?! “CONFESSION” UNDER TORTURE IS ADMISSIVEL IN MILITARY COURT AS EVIDENCE !!!! HOW LOW CAN THE USA GET???? OCCUPYING A COUNTRY TO STEAL THEIR RESOURCES, FALSE FLAG OPERATION ON 9/11, ABU GRAIB AND WATERBOARD. THE US GOVERNMENT SHOULD CHANGE THE WORDS “GOS BLESS AMERICA” TO “GOD HELP IT!” OR “GOD HAVE MERCY OF THE WAR CRIMINALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE”. I DON’T! I HOPE CHENNEY ENDS UP LIKE MUSOLINI, SAME FOR THAT RAT RICE!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:56 pmARE THEY AWARE THAT THE WORLD COMMUNITY IS WATCHING???! AND HAVE A VERY GOOD MEMORY?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:57 pmTHE USA IS GOING… GOING… GONE!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:58 pmThe USA has a mokey as a president, who was never elected. Is occupying a country based on obsene lies. The mokey and its team commited treason by ousting a CIA agent. The CIA has destroyed EVIDENCE of TORTURE, congress is doing a lot os theatre but not really acting on it. The mokey’s game on how to get the country into a unescessarry war was dismatled by NIE. Rove and Gonzo are still giving FACIST speaches. tHE MOKEY SAID THE usa DOES NOT TORTURE… but there is plenty of evidence and witenessess to contrary, plus historical evidence too! HOW LOW CAN THE USA GO! OSAMA BIN LADEN IS LAUGHING OUT LOUD NOW!!! BUSH & Co. MANAGED TO ACHEIVE FAR MORE DESTRUCTION THAN HE COULD EVER IMAGINE!
December 13th, 2007 at 12:06 amBUSH is a mokey!
December 13th, 2007 at 12:15 amSorry sorry, its a second laguage. I just came back from work and my english goes… he is a obscene APE! (is it correct?)
December 13th, 2007 at 12:16 amPoor Apes, I think I just have offended them!
December 13th, 2007 at 12:17 amAn Obscene Ape I mean… Sorry Apes of the World, I caled you BUSH!
December 13th, 2007 at 12:20 amI mean called! I keep doing it!
December 13th, 2007 at 12:21 amHe is “AN obscene ape†would be both grammatically, and anatomically correct.
Comment by BARTLEBEE
December 13th, 2007 at 12:24 amHahahahahahaha!!!!!
I’ve tried arguing with the hard-core Bush supporters in this blog about the ethical, moral, and legal problems with waterboarding, but it was like explaining the Theory of Relativity to a donkey.
Their answer usually is along the lines of “if they do it, why don’t we?” -which is why one has to stoop to their caveman-like comprehension level to explain these issues, since it’s all about practicality to them.
And think this is the same lot who won’t shut up about their so-called moral values…
December 13th, 2007 at 1:42 amGen. Hartman is the new breed of soldier. Disregarding 100 years of no-torture policies in the US military in favor of questionable methods that will result in questionable results. Either he is a puppet whose strings are pulled by the president, which makes him a man without a conscience, or he is truly evil.
http://13martyrs.blogspot.com/
December 13th, 2007 at 7:25 amThank Gawd for our fine American Representatives
Without them, our country may have been known for it’s policy of Legalized Torture.
Leo Strauss had it right:
December 13th, 2007 at 4:50 pmThe people are unworthy.