Rep. King Decries ‘Assault On Christmas,’ Calls On Americans To ‘Stand Up’ And ‘Worship Christ’
Rep. King Decries ‘Assault On Christmas,’ Calls On Americans To ‘Stand Up’ And ‘Worship Christ’
Rep. Steve King recently (R-IA) introduced legislation recognizing the “importance of Christmas and the Christian faith,” despite previously opposing resolutions recognizing the Muslim celebration of Ramadan and the Hindu Diwali.
A spokesman for King told ThinkProgress that the congressman simply “thought it was important to honor Christmas” by introducing the bill. Yet today on Fox News, King went further, decrying an “assault on Christmas” from “secularists” who want to “eradicate Christ from Christmas.” Ignoring the Constitution, King claimed America is really a “Christian nation”:
I recognized that we’re a Christian nation founded on Christian principles, and we’re coming up to Christmastime. … It’s time we stood up and said so, and said to the rest of America, Be who you are and be confident. And let’s worship Christ and let’s celebrate Christmas for the right reasons.
Watch it:
In his tirade, King attacked the nine “liberal Democrat” “naysayers” who voted against the bill. “I would like to know how they can vote yes on Ramadan, yes on the Indian religions, and no on Christianity, when the foundation of this nation and our American culture is Christian,” he said.
In response, Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-FL) ripped King’s religious zealotry as “another sad attempt by conservative Republicans to skew the line between church and state”:
“America is not a Christian nation,” Hastings said. “It is a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and everyone in between. Our diversity is our strength and those who seek to use religion as a litmus test are doing a disservice to all of us.”
As for the “assault on Christianity,” Hastings said, “all someone has to do is visit a shopping mall, turn on the radio or TV or look at the Christmas trees sitting on the front lawns of the White House and the United States Capitol to realize that no such assault is underway.”
King isn’t alone. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee both have declared that America is a Christian nation.
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Assault on Christmas???
We should all be so lucky.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:50 pmhttp://www.tshirtinsurgency.com
Jebus. What a friggin’ moron.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:50 pmJesus wept.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:50 pmThe R’s have really hit rock bottom when they start lifting talking points from billofalalfelboy.
That’s all ya got, King? Really?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:52 pm“secularists†who want to “eradicate Christ from Christmas”
Considering the sick retail orgy that Christmas has become, I would think Christ would remove himself from Christmas.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:52 pmUmm… I know this has been covered ad nauseum, and trolls will soon descend to try to rewrite history yet again, but this was NOT a nation founded on “Christian principles”. It was founded on ENLIGHTENMENT principles. The majority of its citizens happened (and still happen) to be Christian, but there were no “Christian principles” enshrined in the Constitution. Instead they were principles that can be traced to Locke and Rousseau, among others, principles like equal treatment under the law, freedom of speech and FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:52 pmApparently, a fair portion of Righties minored in Revisionist History. Wasn’t even offered when I went to school – not that I’d have taken it.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:54 pmRalph, you know that, and I know that – it appears that the friggin’ God-smacked idiots in the Republican party are the ones who need to have it tattooed backwards onto their sloping foreheads so they won’t forget it when they look in the mirror.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:54 pmRather than wasting airtime declaring themselves morons, why not just wear a T-shirt with bush’s picture on it that says, “I’m with Stupid?”
Or maybe, “I’m a republican.” Same diff.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:55 pmComment by gah — December 12, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
so true.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:55 pmGet out there and shop for Jesus!
December 12th, 2007 at 2:56 pmI had to fwd this one to a friend in Iowa. Such a hoot.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:57 pmWTF? When was Congress granted the authority to endorse religion?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:58 pmThe Treaty of Tripoli explicitly refutes that old canard.
Read the first sentence in article 11:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
December 12th, 2007 at 2:59 pmLet’s all send him one of these:
Jesus Action Figure
Everyone has a different take on Jesus. Muslims saw him as a prophet; Buddhists say he was enlightened; Hindus consider him an avatar (the incarnation of a deity in human form) while Christians hail him as the Son of God. But, wherever your theological compass points, you will agree that this is the coolest action figure since G.I. Joe. Each hard plastic Jesus Action Figure stands 5″ tall with poseable arms to reach toward the heavens and wheels in his base for smooth gliding action. Comes in our illustrated package with biblical quotes on the back.
Jesus Action Figure
item 10746
$8.95 ea.
http://www.mcphee.com/items/10746.html
December 12th, 2007 at 3:00 pmwhen the foundation of this nation and our American culture is Christian,†he said.
That statement alone is so completely wrong. Thank the spagetti monster he doesn’t represent me.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:01 pmI’m still stuck on the point that Jesus was a Jew when the USA didn’t even exist.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:01 pmLook, all you dopey Christians out there, if you think your religion is the absolutest best religion, like, EVAH, then you don’t need lawmakers passing a resolution telling everyone else that your religion is the absolutest best religion ever. Christ preached his sermons, he didn’t shove them down anybody’s throat, and by bringing your whin, petty demands to the Congressional level, what you’re saying is Jesus, and by extension, His Dad’s, message is not strong enough to stand on its own. You’re saying Christianity is weak, your message is weak, your FAITH is weak, otherwise you wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about what anyone else thinks of it.
Whiners.
Weaklings.
Cowards.
Pu$$ies.
Republicans.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:01 pmthis is what we pay these fu*k-sticks for?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:02 pmDear God,
If you exist, please come and pick up all the trash you left behind. The sooner the better. The stench coming from it is overwhelming.
Thanks in advance,
December 12th, 2007 at 3:02 pmThe Loyal Opposition
Oh, yeah, and that Christmas is actually a pagan celebration and Jesus’ birthday is not 12/25.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:03 pmLet’s all send him one of these:
Jesus Action Figure
Everyone has a different take on Jesus. Muslims saw him as a prophet; Buddhists say he was enlightened; Hindus consider him an avatar (the incarnation of a deity in human form) while Christians hail him as the Son of God. But, wherever your theological compass points, you will agree that this is the coolest action figure since G.I. Joe. Each hard plastic Jesus Action Figure stands 5″ tall with poseable arms to reach toward the heavens and wheels in his base for smooth gliding action. Comes in our illustrated package with biblical quotes on the back.
Jesus Action Figure
item 10746
$8.95 ea.
http://www.mcphee.com/items/10746.html
Comment by Leftside Annie — December 12, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
I was hoping he was gonna be “RAMBO’d” out…. camo head band, ak on his back, grenades on his belt….
December 12th, 2007 at 3:03 pmToday’s GOP is an assembly of seriously warped and deluded Christo fascists that need to read and abide by Article 4 section 3 of America’s Consitution.
If not then they should be booted and banned from serving as public officials.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:04 pmGod is as useful to politicians as lobbyists and corporate perks, just another party unifier.
Religion is not used to sanctify politics as much as to get everyone on the same page.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:07 pmThe Treaty of Tripoli explicitly refutes that old canard.
Read the first sentence in article 11:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
Comment by lebowski — December 12, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
Other evidence of the influence of Christianity in Early America
From
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2942
America, Christianity, and the Culture War (Part I)
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Original State Constitutions
If the Framers wanted more direct references to Christianity to be left up to the several states, we ought to expect to see the framers of the state constitutions reflecting that intention. And, indeed, they did. Once the Founders declared independence from England, each state commenced to hammer out their respective state constitutions, with the exception of Connecticut which chose to continue to operate under its founding charter until eventually formulating its own state constitution in 1818 (Horton, 1988). If one will take the time to examine the original state constitutions, one will be absolutely overwhelmed by the fact that those framers (many of whom were also involved in working on the federal Constitution), were intimately attached to the God of the Bible and deliberately reflected that attachment in their political pronouncements. The state constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, much of which is believed to be the product of John Adams, provides just one sample. In “Part the First,†the constitution reads:
In “Part the Second,†the constitution enumerated the civil officers of the state:
Further, the “Oath of Office†that was to be taken by anyone who wished to serve as “governor, lieutenant governor, councillor, senator or representative†began with the declaration: “I, A.B., do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth.â€
.
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Excerpts from several state constitution preambles are included in this article and they are quite interesting.
The John Adams referred to is the same John Adams who was the president who signed the Treaty of Tripoli mentioned above. This is the treaty which specifically declared – to Muslim authorities – that the U.S. was not a Christian nation.
From the quotes above it seems obvious that the U.S. was a nation for a Christian people. When I use this phrase, “…a nation for a Christian people,†I don’t mean that all others have to leave, or even that the Christians want to be in charge. I mean that it seems apparent to me that the reason it – the U.S. – has worked as well as it has is because the preponderant influence of Christianity.
Believe “that old canard” will need some additional refuting.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:07 pmAnd when did Jesus visit here? Oh, wait he hasn’t and won’t ever visit here, as if he would want to. So these morons want a “All Christian Nation” uh, well how about all the Christofascists that think that way move to the South where they a inbreeding in great numbers, then you can just have the South and make your own ignorant, superstitious, moronic, archaic, warped interpretation of it.
Leave the rest of us alone, and by the way God is a made up fantasy, made up thousands of years ago by people too primitive to know any better.
Bush/Cheney/King
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
December 12th, 2007 at 3:07 pmWhattafreakin’ moron.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:10 pmAs for the “assault on Christianity,†Hastings said, “all someone has to do is visit a shopping mall, turn on the radio or TV or look at the Christmas trees sitting on the front lawns of the White House and the United States Capitol to realize that no such assault is underway.â€
Now, that’s about the most intelligent statement I have ever heard anyone say about this “so-called” war on Christmas. Do you really think that Christ would want us to go into debt each Christmas to buy our kids all the latest and greatest toys? Do you really think Christ would want us to show our devotion to him by garish and expensive decorations? If you really want to put “Christ” back in Christmas, you will go to church on Christmas day and not fall for the commercialization that has made Christmas a mockery.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:12 pm“The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.”
-Liberal Democratic Naysayer?? no, George Washington
December 12th, 2007 at 3:13 pmComment by bitblt #25:
You can quote all the (since modified) state constitutions you want but that does not change the fact that the treaty explicitly, and as the law of the land, refutes the canard that the US was officially christian.
Is that so hard for you to understand?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:14 pmhe’s not a King, he’s a Jester!
a christian clown! watch him turn the constitution upside down!
the fool needs a good waterboarding.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:14 pm#29 – you know, I misread what Hastings said. I thought he said all you needed to do was to look at the commercialism to see that as the assault on Christmas.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:14 pmAmazing that Republicans continue to think that this kind of crap has legs. What a total embarrassment the Republican party is.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pmI’m in favor of all-out war on the GOP…..and their enablers.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pmJesus H. Christ in a Burqa!…who really cares if this country was founded AS a christian nation or not! Those founders were also genocidal slave-owning sexists and we try not to be any of THOSE things anymore. What are we going to BE as a nation in the future? Proud and strong, or just the country where the Chinese get their cleaning ladies from?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:18 pmThe Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals; it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government … it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen’s protection against the government.
Any government that prescribes a mandated recognition of religious doctrine as a cure for the perception of social ills fails its country.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:18 pmAnd let’s worship Christ and let’s celebrate Christmas for the right reasons.
yes. Buy 0 presents.
Spend 0 on wrapping and cards and other frivolities.
Give all that money to charity.
Then you can have a spiritual Christmas.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:19 pmNIce work, bitbit. Perhaps you could elaborate on which Christian principles this nation was founded?
The divinity of Jesus?
The sanctity of the Bible as the Word of God?
The fulfillment of the prophesies of the Torah?
The One True Church built on the Rock of Peter?
These seem to me to be Christian principles — in other words, principles unique to the Christian faith, set apart from those of other faiths. Because, surely, a nation founded on Christian principles, should have something uniquely Christian in its bedrock documents, right?
What you have offered certainly attests to the usefulness of community worship, and of the influence of a Christian culture on the simple ceremony of government, but it doesn’t really illustrate anything beyond that.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:19 pmThis is just more of the false sense of entitlement that “Christians” have had since Pilgrims first set foot on the North American continent.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:20 pmYou can quote all the (since modified) state constitutions you want but that does not change the fact that the treaty explicitly, and as the law of the land, refutes the canard that the US was officially christian.
Is that so hard for you to understand?
Comment by lebowski — December 12, 2007 @ 3:14 pm
I agree. I’ve not said that the U.S. is officially Christian. I’ve said that the U.S. is a nation for a Christian people. The influence of Christianity is what makes it work as well as it does.
If you can think of something that would have a more positive influence than Christianity, why don’t you tell us what it is?
BTW, it is a world faith so would you mind terribly capitalizing Christian?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:21 pm“King Decries ‘Assault On Christmas,’ Calls On Americans To ‘Stand Up’ And ‘Worship Christ’”
“Stand Up”?!?! Wait a minute here! i thought kneeling was the proper christ worshipping position?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:21 pmIf jesus saves — well, hed better save himself
From the gory glory seekers who use his name in death.
Oh jesus save me!
Hymn #43 Jethro Tull Aqualung
December 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pmYo, Daryll! Jesus didn’t get me my job.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pmI studied hard, worked hard, passed a rigorous interviewing process, and he never once put in a good word for me.
I really didn’t feel comfortable using him as a reference…
Oh, and Daryll… I iknow we’ve been over this before, and I know right-wingers believe tat if you say something that isn’t true often enough, it becomes true, but it really doesn’t.
And saying “President-elect Huckabee” doesn’t make it true. Your faith in it doesn’t make it true.
It makes you inaccurate. And frankly, it makes you look like a fool.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:23 pmThese people ruin Jesus’ birthday every year.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:23 pmAnd let’s worship Christ and let’s celebrate Christmas for the right reasons.
Like mass commercialism
December 12th, 2007 at 3:23 pmfrom Baptist Joint Committee
December 12th, 2007 at 3:24 pmThe War on Christmas? Oh, yes. I did see armed guards at the mall.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pmThe war on Christmas is a strawman created by Mammonist pundits.
I will not worship eggnog, tinsel, Santa Clause or flying reindeer because I am a Christian.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pmWhat I want to know is why no one is making a bigger deal about the fact that only 9 members of the House voted against this bill!
December 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pmI don’t believe in a god, christian, Christian or otherwise.
But if there was a god, I would pray to Him to save me from His followers.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:26 pmSG- Pete Stark voted against it — and I expect that Nancy Pelosi will force him to apologize momentarily.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:27 pmA whole lot of folks need to get a handle on the reasons the Founders provided for Separation of Church and State – then maybe they could appreciate it was done to protect them, not attack them, and stop being spoiled, ungrateful people who know far too little about what really makes the USA a great country.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:28 pmAnd soon there was nothing Left for the cannibals to feed on.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:28 pmComment by bitblt #43
“a nation for christian people…”????
You mean after we killed most of the Indians and brought over and enslaved millions of Africans — all in the name of christianity?
You call that “positive”? Please explain.
You can believe what you want, but this is most certainly not a nation for christians.
Still, it is clear that christianity is the religion of the majority of Americans. Why are some christians, almost always conservative republicans, so outrageously defensive and obsessed with delusions of persecution? You’re seriously miffed that I didn’t capitalize “christianity”?
That is an excellent example of the vacuousness of christian whining about persecution.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:30 pmbitblt may be correct about some of the early state constitutions having a religious base, which is all the more reason to be grateful for the fact that the federal constitution did not, and that it was crafted by people who not only understood the dangers of a state religion but who were the products of the Age of Reason, some of them theists but very few of them “Christians” in anything but name.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:30 pmAssault on Christmas..!!!
By who Mr. King? when it happened ? Where it happened?….Prove it ,without political rhetoric.
looks like…’war on christmas ‘ becoming an annual event by itself.
The last few years , every Christmas season,the same claims are made, with the help of Fox network ,of course.
What’s wrong with these people…?!!
It is sickening to keep reading about religion used by politicans. This is the worst political environment ever in the history of this nation..it is polluted with religious rhetorics everywhere you look..
Americans need to stand and fight against this,or soon they will find themselves with a government run by theologists.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:30 pmLet’s see – the garden variety R wants “Big Government” out of their lives, yet they also want “Big Government” inside their Churches?
Yet another example of incoherence.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:30 pmWow, it took this long for Daryll to show up?
Daryll, how much money do you spend each year on Christmas presents? Do all the presents that you give to your loved ones represent Jesus or his tenets?
I do agree with you that, for Christians, there should be no single “season” to celebrate their Christianity. Therefore, there should be no Christmas season at all. But then, the retailers would go out of business, as they depend on the Christmas season for a huge percent of their sales, and I don’t think that THAT has anything to do with Christ.
Whoa, did you say that Jesus died on the cross so that Christians could have “good jobs”? WTF?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:31 pmBTW, don’t forget that the early Puritan settlers actually banned Christmas.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:32 pmQuestion with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
December 12th, 2007 at 3:33 pmYou may not realize it, but he did the same for you.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
You absolutely don’t realize it, but he had nothing to do with it.
A good education (public university), hard work (my own company for seven years), and a real desire to excel were the only factors that got me this great job!
December 12th, 2007 at 3:35 pm#58 And soon there was nothing Left for the cannibals to feed on.
Comment by Joneser — December 12, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage’s whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:35 pmBTW, don’t forget that the early Puritan settlers actually banned Christmas.
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
The original War on Christmas. :D
December 12th, 2007 at 3:35 pmCrap, Jesus has been reduced to running a temp agency. What a huge step down from deity.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:36 pm…but God assisted in helping me receive employment through my current employer (a DoD contracting company).
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Thanks, Daryll! I laughed so hard I think I pissed my pants.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:36 pmGod helped you get a job with a DoD contractor?!?!
You’re making this sh!t up, right?
Too funny!
I gotta give you credit for that response!
Gayrll -
Department of Defense* (something you of all people should not be allowed even near) and the Intelligence Community* (something that you certainly don’t qualify for, Intelligence is not your strong point)
You’re a sick, sick, sick person Gayrll
Bush/Cheney
Hague ‘09
Gayrll
December 12th, 2007 at 3:37 pmLoonybin
‘08
I give thanks to official like Rep. King who is trying to instill Jesus back into our society. With Rep. King and President-Elect Huckabee, we cannot fail. Jesus is the reason for the season. He died on the cross for us, gave us a chance to live, good jobs, etc. We should be content in Jesus and celebrate him everyday. Rep. King and President-Elect Huckabee enthuses me. Huckabee King 08′.
Comment by Daryll
Your Daryll are one of the worst kinds of fundamentalists. You are no different than the islamists that want to create Islamic Theocracies.
The only difference is that you are advocating a Cristian Theocracy.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:39 pmThese people ruin Jesus’ birthday every year.
Comment by Zooey — December 12, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
Yeah, I believe that he would prefer just a small gathering of his closest friends, maybe a cake…
December 12th, 2007 at 3:39 pmdaryll worships mam-mon
December 12th, 2007 at 3:40 pmdaryll worships mam-mon
daryll worships mam-mon
Religious pompousness is so lame.
If things go well, thank god.
If things go bad, it’s his will…
What a racket.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:40 pmooh – for a minute there i knew what it feels like to be a Fundy…..
December 12th, 2007 at 3:40 pmweirder than drugs, i can tell you.
Yeah, I believe that he would prefer just a small gathering of his closest friends, maybe a cake…
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 3:39 pm
Or perhaps some wine and cheese?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:40 pmSorry, Daryll, but that’s still really lame about Jesus being a career consultant. Really, really lame, and, according to the nuns that taught me from grades 1-12, incredibly wrong.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:41 pmOr perhaps some wine and cheese?
Comment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
That would be nice, just no onion rings! :)
December 12th, 2007 at 3:42 pm78 – You mean like how it was “awesome” that God helped the guard shoot the shooter that shot those people at the Church the other day?
To hear the Parishioners, including the guard talk about it, you’d have thought it was something they were glad happened, just for the sake of “helping” the guard shoot the shooter.
Sorry if my post about it doesn’t make sense – I’m just trying to relay the sentiments of the people who were there.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:43 pmThat would be nice, just no onion rings! :)
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
Oh, PLEASE, let’s not go there again!!!
December 12th, 2007 at 3:43 pmOne more little tidbit, and I really have got to get back to work.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:45 pmWhy do all these pseudo (c)hristians get all worked up regarding Christmas, and the supposed war?
As a Christian, I believe we should celebrate Easter more than Christmas. The Resurrection is what defines us as a religion. Yet, besides the mysterious candy given bunny, the local egg hunts, and the once a year trek to church, it’s a celebration that’s mostly ignored. Why? Does the almighty dollar mean more than the Saviour of our sins? Is that why they declare a mythical war on Xmas? To spend spend spend?
That would be nice, just no onion rings! :)
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
Oh, PLEASE, let’s not go there again!!!
Comment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
Mmmmm, fry sauce lube….
December 12th, 2007 at 3:45 pmYes, I am currently supporting an Intelligence Agency contract, which communicates with other DoD organizations (suburban DC). I have multiple charge numbers to conduct IT work for these contracts
Translation:
I’m a tester.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:46 pmExcept for healthcare and taxes
December 12th, 2007 at 3:46 pmThe rightwing tools are taking the reverence and solemnity out of Christmas by politicizing it.
Just like 9-11.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:46 pmYes, I am currently supporting an Intelligence Agency contract, which communicates with other DoD organizations (suburban DC). I have multiple charge numbers to conduct IT work for these contracts, and I am proud to support our government.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
Well, now we know how/why those NIE’s are all screwed up.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:47 pmI believe we should celebrate Easter …
I still remember the argument I got into with Sister Valeria in fifth grade, when I argued that unless he’d been born, he couldn’t have risen from the dead, so Xmas must be more important.
Got me several knuckle whacks, that one did…
December 12th, 2007 at 3:47 pmComment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/650
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Founders are replete with their belief in and promotion of the Christian religion in its enlarged sense. Even Thomas Jefferson, who probably questioned the deity of Christ, nevertheless advocated and defended true Christianity. In a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush on April 21, 1803, he wrote:
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Almost hints…almost hints… that the influence of religion in this country was discussed then much as it is now and as much as it is now.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:48 pmComment by bitblt
For those who may want to know, bitblt is getting the information from Apologetics Press, which is based in Montgomery, AL. They are a NON-PROFIT & TAX EXEMPT organization, flouting rule of law (IRS Code baning political activity) and attempting to bring about a Theocracy in this country based on Christianity. Here is what they believe (from their web site: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apinfo/aboutap)
The following principles of truth are accepted by those who actively participate in this work:
I don’t have time to take the nine points and refute them one by one, but I will say that item # 6 is the typical mindset of people who are radical fundamentalists, be they Christians or Muslims. At the end of the day, they are inherently dangerous to the freedom and safety of all people (humanity) since they envision themselves superior and everyone else inferior.
I have said the before and I will say this again, anyone who wants to live in a theocracy, need only to go to Saudi Arabia or Iran or some parts of Afghanistan, where the Taliban rule.
Food for thought, Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most respected leaders of modern history. A Hindu, Ghandi nevertheless admired Jesus and often quoted from the Sermon on the Mount. Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, “Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?”
Ghandi replied, “Oh, I don’t reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It’s just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
December 12th, 2007 at 3:48 pmKing wants to know why nine “liberal Democrat naysayers” could vote against his bill.
It’s because they recognize the cheap exploitation of Christmas and other religious matters for political purposes when they see it. They probably also see that Christmas is plenty recognized in this country and needs no help from Congress for promotion.
King claims that “secularists” want to eradicate Christ from Christmas.
I don’t think it’s “secularists” that are doing the eradicating. I think it’s the “commericialists” — people who make gobs of money off of the holiday. Santa, Frosty, and assorted reindeer sell a lot better than the baby Jesus. Most of what we see and hear around Christmas is secular instead of sacred. We see decorated trees (secular), lots of lights (secular), Santa displays (secular), snow scenes (secular), and occasionally we see a nativity scene (sacred). Flip on your 24/7 Christmas music radio station and you’ll hear a few sacred Christmas carols, but most of what you hear is “White Christmas”, “Santa Claus is Coming To Town”, and other purely secular pop holiday standards sung by every has-been in the business. Don’t blame this cultural shift on the evil liberals — just commercialism run amok.
And King’s other claim about this being a “Christian” nation? That has been debunked by so many others here at this site — on this thread and many others — that I won’t merely repeat what they have already said better than I. I will say that this isn’t a Christian nation. It’s a free nation where the majority of citizens are Christians. And that’s a BIG difference.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:50 pmAs a Native American… I find the notion that Christianity was a ‘positive influence’ somewhat repugnant.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:52 pmYes, I am currently supporting an Intelligence Agency contract, which communicates with other DoD organizations (suburban DC). I have multiple charge numbers to conduct IT work for these contracts, and I am proud to support our government.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
You said you were working on the satellite systems previously.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:53 pmIf so, tell me the transfer bitrate of the current satellites. Uplink and downlink. ( I know what they are because my father developed the systems for the military, lets see if someone that claims to work on them knows )
Comment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
and
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
December 12th, 2007 at 3:53 pmlets see if someone that claims to work on them knows )
December 12th, 2007 at 3:54 pmWayne, he’s a low level flunky tester, he wouldn’t know that stuff if it bit his ass.l
#98 Comment by missmolly,
As usual, you’ve completely hit the nail on the head.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:54 pmIt is still baffling how they can vote yes for Muslim holidays and No to Christian ones. What kind of message is that? BTW, it was wrong to vote against the Muslim holidays.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:56 pmYes, I am currently supporting an Intelligence Agency contract, which communicates with other DoD organizations (suburban DC). I have multiple charge numbers to conduct IT work for these contracts
Translation:
I’m a tester.
Comment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
Further translation: Geek Squad
December 12th, 2007 at 3:59 pmAs a Native American… I find the notion that Christianity was a ‘positive influence’ somewhat repugnant.
Comment by raynman — December 12, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
Only “somewhat”?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:00 pmIt is still baffling how they can vote yes for Muslim holidays and No to Christian ones. What kind of message is that? BTW, it was wrong to vote against the Muslim holidays.
Comment by Roger_Roger
Who cares? The entire issue is a farce and a waste of tax-payer dollars. Both resolutions.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:00 pmComment by Wayne — December 12, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
Wayne, that sounds like something that Wayne S. might know, too. I’ll check with him later.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:02 pmWayne, he’s a low level flunky tester, he wouldn’t know that stuff if it bit his ass.l
Comment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
Its not the first time I have asked Saint Daryll this question. I wanted to see if he still disappears like every time I ask LMAO
December 12th, 2007 at 4:02 pmIt is still baffling how they can vote yes for Muslim holidays and No to Christian ones. What kind of message is that? BTW, it was wrong to vote against the Muslim holidays.
Comment by Roger_Roger — December 12, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
The government of the United States respects and supports minorities to make sure their voices are heard. That’s what separates our Government from that thing they have in Iraq. At least that’s the way it should be. Christians are hardly under siege in this country and their voices are hardly squelched.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:05 pmDon’t get me wrong, Wayne, all the testers I work with are great, and I couldn’t do my job without them, but D said not to long ago that he was doing black box testing, which you don’t see code, variables, or any of the input data in detail, just run the script, record the results, next script….all day long.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:05 pmHey Daryll, when’s the trip to Rio?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:06 pmWayne, that sounds like something that Wayne S. might know, too. I’ll check with him later.
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 4:02 pm
The satellite systems have improved alot for the military. For example, in Desert Storm they had to ship 12 cargo planes loaded with just cables to hook up command computer systems.
That much cabling is no longer needed for the new systems.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:07 pmIt is still baffling how they can vote yes for Muslim holidays and No to Christian ones. What kind of message is that? BTW, it was wrong to vote against the Muslim holidays.
Comment by Roger_Roger — December 12, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
An excellent point, but I think I have an explanation. First, most voted for King’s resolution. Only nine didn’t. It’s important to note that.
I don’t know why the nine voted the way they did, since I haven’t read any quotes by them yet. But I would bet that it has something to do with the spirit in which each of these resolutions were introduced. Resolutions recognizing Ramadan and Diwali were introduced NOT to diss Christianity, but to foster a feeling of inclusion with Americans who happen to be Muslim or Hindu and celebrate those holidays.
I believe they were also done to show the world that even though an overwhelming majority of Americans are Christian either by faith or by culture, we celebrate the diversity of our mixed populace. This is important in these times when we don’t receive a whole lot of good will from the rest of the world.
Now, about King’s resolution. There are some who felt that it was introduced not with an attitude of inclusion and tolerance, but with an attitude of combativeness and as a political “gotcha”. I doubt that those who voted against it did so because they don’t like Christmas — I suspect it was just that they didn’t want to play King’s little game.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:10 pmJesus never believed in liberalism.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
He didn’t believe in your cracked idea of him either.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:14 pmHey, D, come on down, you’re always welcome, as is your wife at the RUC household. You’ll have to put up with my rambunctious four year old, Amber, but we’d have a great old time.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:15 pmcomment by Daryll #117
Newsflash: they’re already christian.
Or don’t you count catholics as christian?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:16 pmJesus never believed in liberalism,
Yeah, that feeding the poor stuff, camel eye passing stuff wasn’t his, was it…
December 12th, 2007 at 4:16 pmAttention christian shoppers! Wal Mart is sold out of talking action figure Jesuses.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:16 pmJesus: The Original Liberal
December 12th, 2007 at 4:17 pmAttention christian shoppers! Wal Mart is sold out of talking action figure Jesuses.
Comment by tablogloid — December 12, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
But Target just got a truckload of the glow in the dark Jeebus statuettes!
December 12th, 2007 at 4:18 pmJesus never believed in liberalism.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
I beg to differ with you on that one. Jesus paid far more attention to the poor and the downtrodden than conservatives do. Jesus was not all about making all the money you can (in fact, He said something about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven), He was about helping your brother (something about “and when you do for the least among you, you do for Me”).
Jesus wasn’t a warmonger. He told us to turn our cheek when we are struck. He told us to pray for those who persecute us and allow God to take vengeance.
Jesus was fairly conservative on social issues — He had something to say about adultery, for example. However, He saved a prostitute from being stoned to death (but He did tell her to “sin no more”).
And one other rather important point — Jesus preached to those who wanted to listen to Him. But He NEVER forced conversion upon anyone.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:19 pmDaryll must be convinced that the Sermon on the Mount was done by an imposter. All that “blessed are the meek” crap had to have been the work of some filthy librul Hollywood writer. Or… whatever they had back then that was similar.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:21 pmBut Target just got a truckload of the glow in the dark Jeebus statuettes!
Comment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
RUCerious, you’re going to hell for sure! Which is good, at least I’ll know someone when I get there. :)
December 12th, 2007 at 4:23 pmSeriously, is Daryll one of those “catholics aren’t christians” morons?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:24 pmComment by ralph the wonder llama — December 12, 2007 @ 4:21 pm
Blessed are the cheesemakers? ;)
December 12th, 2007 at 4:25 pmOne more little tidbit, and I really have got to get back to work.
Why do all these pseudo (c)hristians get all worked up regarding Christmas, and the supposed war?
As a Christian, I believe we should celebrate Easter more than Christmas. The Resurrection is what defines us as a religion. Yet, besides the mysterious candy given bunny, the local egg hunts, and the once a year trek to church, it’s a celebration that’s mostly ignored. Why? Does the almighty dollar mean more than the Saviour of our sins? Is that why they declare a mythical war on Xmas? To spend spend spend?
Comment by DRxJ — December 12, 2007 @ 3:45 pm
Surely you can answer this one yourself?
BTW, I’ve not commented on the topic of this thread.
Why do all these pseudo (c)hristians get all worked up regarding Christmas, and the supposed war?
Determining who is and who isn’t a Christian is my department, but I can comment on the “…get all worked up regarding Christmas…â€
It’s guerrilla marketing – the most exposure for the least amount of effort. That and the fact that many Christians believe their faith is the one to insult with impunity. If Muslims in this country were abused the way the Christian are abused, there would be riots – around the world.
I’ll ignore the massive commercial overtones of the season as mentioned by some many others.
My opinions are these:
The story of the Nativity, in the Bible, is a joyous story and easy to remember and to repeat. In short the baby Jesus in the manger does require much of those who hear the story. It requires nothing beyond a few sweet coos. As problematic as this event was to Herod, it’s requires nothing of modern people.
Jesus in the manger is hopefulness for the rest of the story.
The story of the Resurrection is something altogether different. The story of the betrayal, trial, crucifixion, death, and resurrection, also in the Bible, is not pretty in any sense of the word. Only the end of this sequence of events, the Resurrection, has any attraction. It is to Christ’s glory that he willing went through His “passion.â€
You are correct that all Christianity hangs on this event. The difference is that this image, of a man being executed for your sins, requires something. Christ on the cross requires as decision as to whether you will accept the Father’s salvation through the sacrifice of this Son or whether you’ll reject it.
Christ on the cross demands.
Baby Jesus received gifts. Suffering Savior gives eternal life.
***** on your observation.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:25 pmBaby Jesus received gifts. Suffering Savior gives eternal life.
Comment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
You are one sick f_ck, aren’t you? No wonder you whackjobs condone torture — your religion is based on it.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:28 pmmissmolly, you are on fire today.
Your comment #125 made me reconsider Daryll’s position. It’s not so much that daryll holds a flase image of jesus (although that’s clearly the case); it’s more that he has a false version of liberalism. Like most Regressives who prefer not to think too hard on anything important, Daryll has embraced a cartoon version of what constitutes liberalism that, in decades past, would have served as a useful cartoon version of communism and, before that, of Nazism. Really, any “evil empire” you can conjure up, Daryll’s current view of “liberalism” can apply to it. Including “The Empire” in Star Wars.
It’s not important to Daryll or others like him to have an accurate picture of things they oppose; it’s the opposition itself that fuels them.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:28 pmCHRISTMAS IS A PAGAN HOLIDAY.
Hence the big fat guy that is not Christ. Hence the elves making toys that are not angels. Hence the tree, which is a sign of fertility (you know as in having sex). Etc. etc.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:29 pmIf life is eternal, what is death?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:29 pmJane, you devil! That “cheesemakers” line made me burst out laughing.
“No, it’s the meek! Blessed are the meek! …That’s nice because they ‘ave a ‘ell of a time.”
December 12th, 2007 at 4:29 pmComment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
Very stirring. The question remains though; what right does Congress have to endorse the legitimacy of religious Holy Days?
I find it greatly disturbing that they are even discussing such issues.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:35 pmSorry, Ralph, I had to, it was there. One of the funniest bits in a very funny movie.
Can I at least hope that you were drinking something when you read my comment? I’ve yet to make someone do a spit take on their keyboard!
December 12th, 2007 at 4:36 pmThe fact that many Christians believe their faith is the one to insult with impunity. If Muslims in this country were abused the way the Christian are abused, there would be riots – around the world.
Comment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
That has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with group dynamics.
In any social group, the majority is generally able to be attacked in ways that the minority cannot. The powerful are always ripe targets for satire and criticism because of their power position. When minorities or the powerless are attacked, most people recognize an unfair fight and look down on it. This is a principle that Rush and Coulter and Beck and so many other right-wing “comedians” don’t understand. When you pick on the weak (and yes, in our culture, minorities are politically weak) you look to most people like a bully.
It’s like TV commercials. Inevitably, the dad is the doofus. The mom is the smart one. If there are kids, usually the kids are even smarter, especially if it’s a product aimed at them.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:37 pmRUCerious, you’re going to hell for sure! Which is good, at least I’ll know someone when I get there. :)
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
Look for me in the room where everyone’s standing around waist deep in shit, partying and having a great ole time…
that is until the whistle sounds and the loudspeaker announces,
“OK, everybody, back into the headstand position”
December 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pm.
.
.
Jesus paid far more attention to the poor and the downtrodden than conservatives do.
.
.
.
Comment by missmolly — December 12, 2007 @ 4:19 pm
If you’re talking about the U.S. government, I don’t have an opinion about this.
If you’re talking about Conservative Christians(CCs), you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Much of the aid to poor people in this country is through private means – churches, and if you want to know who rebuilt the Gulf coast you better start talking to the CCs.
I personally know one man who made thirteen trips to the Gulf coast to work for hurricane victims. He had never seen these people before he showed up to help them recover their homes.
Southern Baptist are organized to mobilize for hurricane relief. They’re so organized for this that they send wave after waves of workers to hurricane areas. Kitchens, laundries, chainsaw shops.
One report I heard was of a small residential street outside of NOLA where there were vans from three different Evangelical denominations from three different parts of the country.
You can not imagine the money and effort made by Christians in the Southern, and other states, to help the people in LA and MS, and it’s not over yet.
As an aside, do you know what the Amish – the ones whose daughters were murdered – did with the money they received?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:40 pm“Jesus never believed in liberalism.”
Comment by Daryll
How about Matthew chapter 5?
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
Perhaps it is just me, but that sounds liberal.
Or what about down in verse 38 where Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.” But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.”
Don’t you think that is a liberal way of seeing things?
Martin Luther King, Jr. a Baptist minister was a proponent of the separation of church and state. He recognized that our founding fathers put a wall of separation between the church (our personal faith systems) and the affairs of state (our government). King stated that the church “is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool.â€
Why is it that so called Christians, people who were instructed to love one another have so much hate for anyone who has a different opinion or have no ability to have a open and honest discussion?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:42 pmAmish-basher.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:43 pmThis really bothers me. This seems dangerous. We’re doomed…DOOMED I tell you!
December 12th, 2007 at 4:51 pmI have still yet to read where Congress got the right to endorse, or define, Holy Days. In fact, I’m pretty sure it’s illegal and unconstitutional.
WTF?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:52 pmJesus never believed in liberalism.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
Jesus was a liberal.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:53 pmBet you I can find more scripture supporting that Jesus was a liberal. But you don’t really read the bible do you daryll, you just let your preacher tell you…..
“From the quotes above it seems obvious that the U.S. was a nation for a Christian people. When I use this phrase, “…a nation for a Christian people,†I don’t mean that all others have to leave, or even that the Christians want to be in charge. I mean that it seems apparent to me that the reason it – the U.S. – has worked as well as it has is because the preponderant influence of Christianity. ”
So how come Europe was such a mess during the Middle Ages?
December 12th, 2007 at 4:55 pmComment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
Jesus was the original Liberal Daryll. You really should go back and read your Bible.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:59 pmSo how come Europe was such a mess during the Middle Ages?
Comment by RickS — December 12, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
I can offer only the simplest speculation.
People couldn’t read.
There were no Bibles to read. This is important because the Bible has stories of freedom. This also means there were few, if any, Protestants.
Poverty.
State and church politics.
You tell me why the U.S. seems to have missed most of the bad stuff that happened to Europe. You might also want to note why there’s such a big difference between North American and Latin and South America.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pmAnd the thing is, is that if Jesus were to actually show up, these same people would cart him off to the loony bin for thinking He was Jesus.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:03 pmComment by bitblt #155
So you’re not just prejudiced against non christians but catholics too?
Classy.
Who would Jesus hate?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:03 pmoops I meant #151
December 12th, 2007 at 5:04 pmWhat right does Congress have to dictate how much “Christ is in Christmas”? Is King ignorant of the fact that people of Faith decide how much Faith they have?
And, no branch of our government has the legal, or moral, authority to establish standards for Holy Days.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:04 pmbitblt – too late for you – you’ve been unmasked as an Amish-basher, so get thee hence.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:08 pmComment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
It’s all well and good that so many christian sects donated, and continue to donate, time and money to help the victims of Katrina. However, please keep in mind that just because atheists and agnostics don’t have the community, organization and resources that so many churches have, doesn’t mean that they haven’t donated their time and money as well. We just don’t have signs all over us and our vehicles saying “Atheists for NOLA” or some other emblem.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:09 pmComment by bitblt #155
So you’re not just prejudiced against non christians but catholics too?
Classy.
Who would Jesus hate?
Comment by lebowski — December 12, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
I was asked a question. I made some observations that are available to all.
Perhaps all you can see is “prejudice,” in the sense that you can only understand “prejudice.” Disagreement from different viewpoints is neither hate nor prejudice.
Why don’t you answer the question, lebowski, that RickS asked in #149?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:11 pmAnd, no branch of our government has the legal, or moral, authority to establish standards for Holy Days.
Comment by pete — December 12, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
They can only do bullshit stuff like declaring “National Dairy Month”.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:13 pmThis is my most favorite of all nonissues. If only some tipping point could be reached which will force the elfish armies to ride onto the plains of Nazereth upon reindeer back. I can envision some really great war films which might result from these epic battles
December 12th, 2007 at 5:13 pmto RickS #149
speaking of Europe, this reminded me of why i would like to retire/move to Spain
What Happens When a Country Gives Up Religion: as Spain Shows, Nothing Much
“…If anything, Spain proves that societies do not fall apart when they give up religion and almost everything that was illegal for religious reasons, becomes legal. Moreover I believe that if Spain had not given up its repressive form of religious expression it would not have been the success that it is now. For those, mostly in America, who believe that religion somehow makes countries more ethical Spain proves the opposite. …”
December 12th, 2007 at 5:14 pmComment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
It’s all well and good that so many christian sects donated, and continue to donate, time and money to help the victims of Katrina. However, please keep in mind that just because atheists and agnostics don’t have the community, organization and resources that so many churches have, doesn’t mean that they haven’t donated their time and money as well. We just don’t have signs all over us and our vehicles saying “Atheists for NOLA†or some other emblem.
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
You are correct.
If fact, many nonbelievers worked with church groups in NOLA, and guess what, some of them even became believers.
BTW, do you have link to the nation wide list of secular humanist rescue missions? I’d appreciate it. I’d like to send them some business.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:15 pmComment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
How’d you feel about the scene in which baby Jesus receives the gifts. I particularly liked the giving a baby a bomb aspect of that as well as thanks but don’t worry so much about the frankinscence next time stuff. What a classic film!
December 12th, 2007 at 5:17 pmAre not Rep. King’s remarks, and legislation, clear examples of State Sponsored Religion?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:21 pmSo how come Europe was such a mess during the Middle Ages?
Comment by RickS — December 12, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
I can offer only the simplest speculation.
People couldn’t read.
There were no Bibles to read. This is important because the Bible has stories of freedom. This also means there were few, if any, Protestants.
Poverty.
State and church politics.
Comment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
C’mon, bitblt, I can tell you’re smarter than that. How about, the only people who could read were the wealthy and the Church leaders? Knowledge is power? Absolute power corrupts absolutely? How about, Church “politics” meant that if you didn’t convert, you were a heretic and were tortured and/or killed? Did you conveniently forget the ever-so-holy Crusades? The Catholic Church amassed a fortune in lands, arts, money, etc., in their “holy” wars, becoming ever more powerful and, therefore, hypocritical and less christian.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:23 pmComment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
I don’t mean to knock the many fine Christians in this country who make every attempt to live their lives the way Jesus intended. My church too contributed financial aid and sent people down to NO to help with the Katrina aftermath, and I know that many others did, too. Furthermore, we have programs to benefit the hungry and homeless and many others who need help, because we believe this is what Jesus wants us to do.
When I say “conservatives”, I am talking about the mindset I sense from the conservative talking heads (Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Ann Coulter, etc.). These people proudly claim to be conservatives while they condemn the poor as “lazy”, condemn people who want to help the poor as “socialist”, and blast anyone who doesn’t see things exactly from their perspective as “traitors”. I don’t find this attitude to be like Jesus at all.
And it’s not just the prominent talking heads. Just pick any thread on TP regarding SCHIP funding or universal health care. You’ll find many hateful comments on there about how people who don’t have health insurance deserve what they get, that SCHIP beneficiaries are frauds, etc. etc. Can you imagine Jesus saying such a thing?
The point I was making, in rebuttal to Daryll’s outrageous comment that Jesus never believed in liberalism, is that the principles Jesus preached and stood for fall in line far more with current liberal ideology than conservative. And by “conservative” — I mean the current crop of neocon conservatives who dominate that political wing, not conservatives like Barry Goldwater.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:27 pmWTF were our Reps thinking when they passed this legislation?
December 12th, 2007 at 5:27 pmComment by bitblt #159
Of course you won’t admit to prejudice, especially against other christians, but your remarks clearly indicate that you feel you are, because pf your particular brand of christianity, better than other people, even other christians. Tell me, do you think a catholic can remain a catholic and still get into heaven?
The answer to the question in 149 is simple:
Europe was a mess because a small goupr of elites used various forms of christianity to oppress most of the other human beings.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:30 pmDid you conveniently forget the ever-so-holy Crusades? The Catholic Church amassed a fortune in lands, arts, money, etc., in their “holy†wars, becoming ever more powerful and, therefore, hypocritical and less christian.
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
Actually I was thinking of the Crusades when I wrote poverty. Somewhere, I can’t remember where, I saw an analysis of the cause of the Crusades. This analysis said something like the King wanted to send as many as he could to Jerusalem because of the wide spread, deep poverty in either England of France. It was something like we can’t feed them, they’re going to riot, so send them on a “holy” war to Jerusalem go get rid of them.
In truth there wasn’t much to read either by the wealthy or by the clergy.
A useful question here may be something like, “How do you control a mass of poor, ignorant(not stupid but unknowing) people?”
It’s easy to look at the past with modern eyes, but I’m not sure that you’ll get an accurate view unless you try to put yourself in the same situation.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:33 pmRe: 6,
You know, I had never put it in that perspective. Wouldn’t it be fair to say, to a certain extent, that America is founded on purely ANTI-Christian values? Maybe that shows a gross misunderstanding of how the Enlightenment went down (who needs history class?), but it wasn’t exactly an orgy of religious zealotry, right?
That’s a really interesting twist on the whole story, I think.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:33 pmBTW, do you have link to the nation wide list of secular humanist rescue missions? I’d appreciate it. I’d like to send them some business.
Comment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 5:15 pm
Yeah, I bet you would. Why don’t you start with the Red Cross and go from there? Apparently you don’t seem to understand that one doesn’t have to be a part of an organized “mission” to still do good. One does not have to worship an invisible deity to still have morals, or to know right from wrong. BTW, why don’t you give me the names of the atheists or agnostics who “guess what” converted? Or even how many converted? I personally cannot imagine that any atheist or agnostic could possibly turn into a god-worshipper after witnessing the ‘act of god’ that was Katrina. I would think that something like that would simply confirm their beliefs, not make them bow before a vengeful, murderous god.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:35 pmReading Daryll and the other Trolls comments, combined with this whole “Oh Noes! Xmas is under attack by the Gawdless Libruls!!!!” bs that is being sent out, I had to share this funny tale of a self-righteous jerk…
Yesterday, while my wife was working out, she was approached by a man who started to talk to her. Apparently, he was rather interested in the cute little black girl working out on the weight machine, up to the point that he saw the ring. From her recollection of the encounter:
Him: “You’re married?”
Her: “Yep. Best thing that ever happened to me.” (I’m lucky to have her…)
Him: “No it’s not, you can’t see other people now.”
Her: “Oh, I’m bisexual. I’m actually looking to meet a girl.” (Did she do this on purpose?)
Him: “….do you have Jesus?!”
Rest of conversation was this idiot busy preaching the Holy Book at my wife and her friends, after having tried to pick her up not even a minute before. Hypocrit much there, dude?
Daryll? You wonder why we have such contempt for you? Why it appears that ‘men of faith’ are looked down on? How about this. A guy goes from disrespecting our marriage, dissing marriage because he couldn’t get what he wants to praising the Lord in his next breath and accusing my wife of being in sin. Two phrases for you.
“Covet not thy neighbor’s wife.”
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
I’m no Christian but I certainly agree with the second part. If you practiced your religion in the appropriate place, Daryll, you’d find I have not qualms about acceptable displays. I get mad when people try to shut down Christmas, as mad as I get when someone tries to shut down another person’s holiday. As long as it doesn’t involve animal or human sacrifice, I’m cool with most things. Why? Because I am a liberal. Related to the term libertarian? Both rooted from the original word liberty? Be free to worship as you want. Just remember that I am free to not worship with you.
America in general is starting to see the difference between a ‘xian/christian’ and a Christian, I think, and they’re beginning to realize that the goals of the xian are not the same goals as themselves or true Christians. The annual ‘I haz my xmas….no, they be takin’ mah xmas!’ bs is starting to wear thin on many people, including people of faith. The truth is that Christmas is only in danger in select areas, where public servants take the whole idea of separation of Church and State and make it into something it’s not. Fort Collins was the only example of Christmas related BS this year, and even Secular Denver has opened their parade to Christian displays, not to mention displays from other areas of the world.
Daryll, you’d go alot further to recruiting people to your cause in these non-religous United States if you didn’t scream that your faith is under attack. But then again, you’ve got to have something to do besides hitting on other men’s wives then ranting religiously at them when you disagree with their lifestyle….not to mention their choice in men. Go back to covetting thy neighbor’s wife and other possessions. ;)
December 12th, 2007 at 5:35 pmComment by missmolly — December 12, 2007 @ 5:27 pm
Thanks for the clarification, and I’m glad you and your church were able to help in the Gulf – that’s Gulf of Mexico.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:36 pmComment by dbadass — December 12, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
Have you ever actually seen frankincense? Not the least bit impressive, no wonder Monty Python’s version of the holy family turned their noses up at the ‘gifts’!
December 12th, 2007 at 5:39 pmBTW, do you have link to the nation wide list of secular humanist rescue missions? I’d appreciate it. I’d like to send them some business.
Comment by bitblt — December 12, 2007 @ 5:15 pm
Well I am sort of small potatoes but I just distributed about 500 dollars worth of groceries to families in my school district in need and not that canned pumpkin and ramen bs. Lobster, gorgonzola and herb pesto, Veal Bolognese Raviolis, Braised short rib raviolis, etc. You know actual good shit
December 12th, 2007 at 5:44 pmhttp://www.free-bird.nl/images/stationery/john_lennon.htm
December 12th, 2007 at 5:49 pmComment by dbadass — December 12, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
dbadass, why don’t you stop by our house with some of that “good shit”? ;)
December 12th, 2007 at 6:03 pmIt looks like bitblt doesn’t want to answer questions about prejudice but my questions point to why we don’t mix religion and government.
There’s always some group who say that others aren’t being correctly religious. Face it, religionists of all brands are masters of schism.
Even if they could agree on one interpretation of one religion they would be bad enough. But they can’t even do that and, instead, endlessly fight about and kill over who’s religion is The right one and who prays to the bestest god.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:20 pmHave you ever actually seen frankincense? Not the least bit impressive, no wonder Monty Python’s version of the holy family turned their noses up at the ‘gifts’!
Comment by Jane E. Schneider
All I know is if someone tries to give MY child any myrrh, it’s going straight into the trough!
December 12th, 2007 at 6:20 pmWell I am sort of small potatoes but I just distributed about 500 dollars worth of groceries to families in my school district in need and not that canned pumpkin and ramen bs. Lobster, gorgonzola and herb pesto, Veal Bolognese Raviolis, Braised short rib raviolis, etc. You know actual good shit
Comment by dbadass — December 12, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
Ahem. Lobster? C’mon down to my house, baby.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:21 pmAll I know is if someone tries to give MY child any myrrh, it’s going straight into the trough!
Comment by RickS — December 12, 2007 @ 6:20 pm
Doesn’t “myrhh” sound like something one would cough up?
December 12th, 2007 at 6:27 pmI call on Rep. King to stand, sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic and jam a hot pink dildo up his own a$$.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:29 pmHey there was also about 15 pounds of shrimp and a bunch of other groovy fixins’.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:24 pmComment by dbadass — December 12, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
And a ‘cider run’? ;) Jeez, you’re making me hungry, all I’ve had today is a slice of toast!
December 12th, 2007 at 7:38 pmComment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 7:38 pm
Considering my access to quality food especially seafoods, you’d be amazed how little I eat. I mostly give it away. Perhaps a cider run would improve my appetite. Screw the Cider Run, I’ll just handle that situation right here in the house. Why bother warming up the car and all.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:42 pm#18, slappy magoo,
December 12th, 2007 at 7:52 pmI was going to write a comment, but I looked at the others first, and you say it very well.
It is clear that King’s interest is pure politics.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:44 pm171 “BTW, do you have link to the nation wide list of secular humanist rescue missions?”
If secular humanists received the multi-billions of dollars of tax breaks that Christian churches do, they could accomplish a lot for the poor and downtrodden.
BTW, aren’t Christians supposed to do good in secret, and not brag about themselves? Matthew 6, for example. I perceive a distasteful attitude of superiority to many Christians, notably 2 on this blog.
I’m not a Christian, and I am giving a free place to live to a woman in a wheelchair whose apartment burned and she was on the street. Three Christian churches she approached told her, “Sorry, we can’t help you.” The Red Cross (see above) gave her 3 days in a motel.
We secular humanists do good because we see it needs to be done, not b/c we’re trying to kiss up to a vengeful, jealous deity or b/c we’re afraid we’ll go to hell if we don’t.
Christianity is full of hooks. No thanks. I learned when I was age 10 in a Baptist church that appearances were more important than what was really in your heart. If you could appear virtuous, you could get away w/a lot of evil.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:45 pmYes, I am currently supporting an Intelligence Agency contract, which communicates with other DoD organizations (suburban DC). I have multiple charge numbers to conduct IT work for these contracts, and I am proud to support our government.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
No wonder we’re losing. The government is hiring insane religious fanatics who don’t have a brain in their heads. i was wondering why iraq has been kicking the shit out of us for 5 years. Because of Daryll!
December 12th, 2007 at 9:05 pmLet’s analyze this notion of God as career counseler. Just for the sake of argument, assume that God really does micromanage everybody’s life behind the scenes. What would happen if he decided not to do that anymore? Would anybody ever find work? Would the world be substantially different from the way it is now?
December 12th, 2007 at 9:07 pmI learned when I was age 10 in a Baptist church that appearances were more important than what was really in your heart. If you could appear virtuous, you could get away w/a lot of evil.
Comment by JudyLou — December 12, 2007 @ 8:45 pm
Around the same age, I noticed that as soon as everyone got out of church, they started a vicious scramble to be the first out of the parking lot so that they could get to the local grocery and the ‘heavenly’ fresh-baked crullers therein. That’s when I started realizing how hypocritical church-goers can be, my own father amongst them.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:08 pmI am extremely disappointed in my Rep. Tammy Baldwin. This is clearly a Trojan Horse bill. We will see more repulsive legislation in the future.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:08 pmComment by Sabyen91 — December 12, 2007 @ 9:08 pm
My rep, too, and he’s one of the freshman Democratics, John Hall. He’ll be hearing from me about this bullshite vote. We’re supposed to be seeing him at a holiday party Friday night, but we’ve already promised to behave at the event (my husband wrote a commentary on our blog that was titled “You Broke my Heart, John Hall”, which, we heard, came to Congressman Hall’s attention), so I’ll have to email him.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:30 pmJane, Tammy will be hearing from me as well, once I cool off. I wouldn’t behave, personally but that must be my poor impulse control :)
December 12th, 2007 at 9:35 pm#17 I’m still stuck on the point that Jesus was a Jew when the USA didn’t even exist
LOL!!! Holy sh*t, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all week! Exactly!
December 12th, 2007 at 9:37 pm# 59 You mean after we killed most of the Indians and brought over and enslaved millions of Africans — all in the name of christianity?
You just hit the nail on the head, sir. Brilliant!
December 12th, 2007 at 9:43 pmSabyen91, we’re registered Independents, but the local Dems (a small group, we’re in a very Republican town) seem to like us, so I’d like to stay on speaking terms with them. ;) We did get to speak with Congressman Hall a few times at fundraisers, and I did some volunteer work for his primary campaign. I usually write polite letters to him, and save my anger for the likes of “Speaker” Pelosi, etal. Besides, he’s apparently kept aware of stuff on our blog, where my husband doesn’t pull any punches.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:45 pmRucerious, I went throught the same methods to become employed through the Department of Defense and the Intelligence Community, but God assisted in helping me receive employment through my current employer (a DoD contracting company). You may not realize it, but he did the same for you.
Comment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Daryll,
If I told you that there is no such as God, could you ever believe that you achieved what you did through your own efforts, and not because of divine intervention? And if you want to insist on believing in God, could you ever believe that you achieved what you did without divine intervention?
December 12th, 2007 at 9:48 pmDecember 12th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
The republican Jesus!
href=”http://www.guerillastickers.com/JesusAll-American.gif”
December 12th, 2007 at 9:55 pm“Sabyen91, we’re registered Independents, but the local Dems (a small group, we’re in a very Republican town) seem to like us, so I’d like to stay on speaking terms with them. ;) ”
I am a registered Dem and I have probably voted for 3 Republicans in my life. Tammy would still definitely get both barrels from me. But I don’t care if people talk to me :)
December 12th, 2007 at 10:00 pm“You may not realize it, but he did the same for you.”
I hear he helped the Lions win 10 games this year, too…oh, wait.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:01 pmYeah, Jebus must be a Jets fan, too. :(
December 12th, 2007 at 10:32 pmI won’t say he is a Packer’s fan. They are just a pretty darn good team :)
December 12th, 2007 at 10:38 pmOf course you won’t admit to prejudice, especially against other christians, but your remarks clearly indicate that you feel you are, because pf your particular brand of christianity, better than other people, even other christians. Tell me, do you think a catholic can remain a catholic and still get into heaven?
The answer to the question in 149 is simple:
Europe was a mess because a small goupr of elites used various forms of christianity to oppress most of the other human beings.
Comment by lebowski — December 12, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
Among Conservative Christians it’s a common comment that all – everyone – is a sinner, but the Christians are just the sinners who are being saved.
I think what you see in what I write is someone who knows what he believes and why he believes it. I’m just one of those sinners who is being saved, and one who is extremely grateful to the Savior for making it possible.
I’m also one who doesn’t think that every statement, especially on the InterNet, needs to be so throughly qualified that it’s qualified into meaninglessness.
Tell me, do you think a catholic can remain a catholic and still get into heaven?
Deciding who gets into heaven is neither a job to which I’ve been assigned nor a job to which I aspire.
Perhaps this is an area where we could agree. I believe that by the Grace of God you’ll go to God. Do you agree with that?
As to using Christianity to manipulate a populace, did that happen? I believe it did, and I believe it still does.
As to the time frame of your original question when there were no Bibles and few books of any kind, I have to wonder if the those in authority – both secular and religious – were doing the best they could with what they had.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:42 pmbitblt – too late for you – you’ve been unmasked as an Amish-basher, so get thee hence.
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
Amish basher????
The Amish are UltraConservative Christians. Why would I bash them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting
Amish respond with forgiveness
CNN reported a grandfather of one of the murdered Amish girls said of the killer on the day of the murder: “We must not think evil of this man.”
Jack Meyer, a member of the Brethren community living near the Amish in Lancaster County, explained: “I don’t think there’s anybody here that wants to do anything but forgive and not only reach out to those who have suffered a loss in that way but to reach out to the family of the man who committed these acts,” he told CNN.[34]
The Amish have reached out to Roberts’ family. Dwight Lefever, a Roberts family spokesman said an Amish neighbor comforted the Roberts family hours after the shooting and extended forgiveness to them.
An article in a Canadian newspaper the National Post stated that the Amish have set up a charitable fund for the family of the shooter.
The Amish do not normally accept charity, but due to the extreme nature of the tragedy, donations were accepted. Richie Lauer, director of the Anabaptist Foundation, said the Amish community, whose religious beliefs prohibit them from having health insurance, will likely use the donations to help pay the medical costs of the hospitalized children.
The fathers of the Amish girls who had been shot went to the killer’s parents and asked what they could do to help them.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:47 pm“The Amish are UltraConservative Christians. Why would I bash them?”
Because they don’t vote?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:50 pm…but God assisted in helping me receive employment through my current employer (a DoD contracting company).
not blackwater is it daryll? – eric prince is a god-bothering happy-clapper right?
December 13th, 2007 at 12:18 am.
WHY DOES KING HATE THE FIRST AMENDMENT?
.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:46 amComment by bitblt #205
So, you do think — or actually, think you know — that you are better (more favored) than the rest of us. My point exactly.
Ah, so only believers in your particular brand of christianity can know what they believe and why they believe it. Again, you’re not helping yourself on the arrogance issue.
Meaning you don’t think you should be held accountable to your previous statements? Please explain.
Of course, you just did actually just pronounce judgment regarding this question a few lines above but, you’ve already absolved yourself of any responsibility to be consistent in your statements.
I don’t believe in a god so, no, I don’t agree.
Which original question? Anyway, you set the bar remarkably low. Do you really mean to give the various authorities of European history such a blanket pass — the best they could? Is your vision of human potential that stunted?
December 13th, 2007 at 12:50 amAs for the “assault on Christianity,†Hastings said, “all someone has to do is visit a shopping mall, turn on the radio or TV or look at the Christmas trees sitting on the front lawns of the White House and the United States Capitol to realize that no such assault is underway.â€
Now, that’s about the most intelligent statement I have ever heard anyone say about this “so-called†war on Christmas. Do you really think that Christ would want us to go into debt each Christmas to buy our kids all the latest and greatest toys? Do you really think Christ would want us to show our devotion to him by garish and expensive decorations? If you really want to put “Christ†back in Christmas, you will go to church on Christmas day and not fall for the commercialization that has made Christmas a mockery.
Comment by bilbobaggins — December 12, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Those trying to remove Christmas from public view can hardly affect retailers. They have too much at stake. And the retailers learned that people don’t appreciate them making millions from the holiday while trying to remove the reference to Christianity. As for the displays at the White House and the Capital, they only continue because the attempts to remove displays from local govts haven’t been successful yet. That will come. I do have to agree with you about going into debt to buy gifts and giving children everything they want. I’m sure Jesus would prefer that our gift giving to celebrate his birth as the greatest gift of all be restrained and include giving to those in need.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:39 amI would hope this has already been mentioned but I wasn’t able to make it through all 200+ comments: It is completely idiotic for the Congress of the United States to be voting on any resolution that “celebrates” or otherwise ANY religious holiday. It’s not their place and “we” were asking for it when “our” supposed side brought these Muslim and Hindu resolutions to a vote. That was completely unnecessary, unwarranted, ignorant and just as unconstitutional as this farce by King.
If this is where the progressive boat is heading, I’d like to get off, please.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:51 amalso,
you have yet to explicitly answer my question about your belief concerning catholics as catholics getting into heaven — can they get in as catholics or do they have to adopt your brand of christianity to get past the gates…?
December 13th, 2007 at 2:45 am6. Christianity is the one true religion; Jesus Christ is the only divine Son of God, resurrected Lord, and Savior of all who lovingly obey Him.
I don’t have time to take the nine points and refute them one by one, but I will say that item # 6 is the typical mindset of people who are radical fundamentalists, be they Christians or Muslims. At the end of the day, they are inherently dangerous to the freedom and safety of all people (humanity) since they envision themselves superior and everyone else inferior.
Comment by Citizen_of_Earth — December 12, 2007 @ 3:48
Belief in Christ as the only Savior is hardly equal to attempting to make Christianity the official religion of the U.S. In fact, I’ve not heard anyone suggest doing that. I’ve only heard people asking that Christianity be afforded all the consideration of any other religion and it’s position as the religion of the majority be respected. As to the comment that minority religions deserve some special consideration and the majority religion should expect to be attacked and deal with it, that’s ridiculous. People have the right to practice any religion or none, as long as they don’t hurt anyone.
December 13th, 2007 at 3:12 amI personally cannot imagine that any atheist or agnostic could possibly turn into a god-worshipper after witnessing the ‘act of god’ that was Katrina. I would think that something like that would simply confirm their beliefs, not make them bow before a vengeful, murderous god.
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 5:35 pm
Why do you assume God was responsible for Katrina? “Acts of God” are assigned by fallible people. It’s not God’s will that bad things happen to anyone. The bad things in the world are the result of the sin of mankind. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 3:23 amI beg to differ with you on that one. Jesus paid far more attention to the poor and the downtrodden than conservatives do. Jesus was not all about making all the money you can (in fact, He said something about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven), He was about helping your brother (something about “and when you do for the least among you, you do for Meâ€).
Jesus wasn’t a warmonger. He told us to turn our cheek when we are struck. He told us to pray for those who persecute us and allow God to take vengeance.
Jesus was fairly conservative on social issues — He had something to say about adultery, for example. However, He saved a prostitute from being stoned to death (but He did tell her to “sin no moreâ€).
And one other rather important point — Jesus preached to those who wanted to listen to Him. But He NEVER forced conversion upon anyone.
Comment by missmolly — December 12, 2007 @ 4:19 pm
It’s good to see that you recognize that Jesus requires responsibilty from people as well as offering help to those in need. I’ve never seen that from a lib on this site. If we can strike a balance between the govt giving people a hand when they need it and cradle to grave care, we’ll be doing great. That’s what most conservatives want.
——
Among Conservative Christians it’s a common comment that all – everyone – is a sinner, but the Christians are just the sinners who are being saved.
“So, you do think — or actually, think you know — that you are better (more favored) than the rest of us. My point exactly.”
Comment by lebowski — December 13, 2007 @ 12:50 am
The knowledge of Christians that we are saved hardly means we think we are better than anyone. Salvation is available to anyone. Christians have accepted it, so are saved. If one doesn’t accept it, one is lost. None is better, just a different condition of our souls. We were not saved because we were Christians. We became Christians when we were saved. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 3:51 amoh good xist. you really think you’re not being proud, don’t you?
December 13th, 2007 at 4:04 amThey don’t get it – Christ and I have a relationship that supersedes running over to the local church – that by the way is my business – i don’t usually feel that it is necessary to convince anyone about my religion – i feel confident about it – Christ would have a difficult time with politicians using him to get votes.
December 13th, 2007 at 4:52 amComment by Daryll — December 12, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
As Kris Kristoferson put it
Also, Jesus rejected the central tenet of conservatism – opposition to paying taxes.
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/biblepayingtax.htm
Or as that flaming liberal Paul put it:
December 13th, 2007 at 8:23 am
“#215 Why do you assume God was responsible for Katrina? “Acts of God†are assigned by fallible people. It’s not God’s will that bad things happen to anyone. The bad things in the world are the result of the sin of mankind. ;)”
If God is all knowing and all powerful then everything that occurs on this planet is his will. God by virtue of his omnipotence either makes it happen or allows it to happen.
You either have an all powerful God that is ultimately responsible for all bad things or God is not all powerful.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:30 amoh good xist. you really think you’re not being proud, don’t you?
Comment by lebowski — December 13, 2007 @ 4:04 am
Pride? No, I can’t take credit for something Jesus did, bud. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 8:34 am“#215 Why do you assume God was responsible for Katrina? “Acts of God†are assigned by fallible people. It’s not God’s will that bad things happen to anyone. The bad things in the world are the result of the sin of mankind. ;)â€
If God is all knowing and all powerful then everything that occurs on this planet is his will. God by virtue of his omnipotence either makes it happen or allows it to happen.
You either have an all powerful God that is ultimately responsible for all bad things or God is not all powerful.
Comment by j swift — December 13, 2007 @ 8:30 am
God allows a lot of things to happen that He doesn’t want to happen. He gave us the paradise that people seem to think we deserve and we blew it. We continue to blow it to this day. God wants everyone to accept Him, but allows people to choose otherwise. So don’t blame Him for the situation we’ve created for ourselves. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 8:38 amWhilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offence against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered.
-James Madison
(One of those pesky Founding Fathers
that wrote the First Amendment
that included the Establishment Clause)
Memorial and Remonstrance
December 13th, 2007 at 8:52 amAgainst Religious Assessments
[1785]
Comment by KJShaw — December 13, 2007 @ 8:52 am
Fortunately, no one is trying to force anyone to accept Christ. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 9:25 amComment by Arn Gunnutes — December 13, 2007 @ 10:15 am
December 13th, 2007 at 10:33 amYou seem to have a little hate going on there yourself, bud. Fortunately for those folks, God will be their judge instead of you. ;)
The arrogance and self righteousness of the religionists on this thread perfectly illustrates why we don’t let them prescribe religious observance for the rest of us.
In their own words, they provide the best possible argument against their case.
Would you want to even casually imagine living in a world where they tell you where, when and how to pray as well as who to pray to?
The writers of the constitution made plenty of mistakes but one thing they certainly got right was keeping various people’s imaginary friends in the sky out of government for the rest of us.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:52 amChristmas should be a uniter, not a divider
It’s the War on Christmas season once again. Conservative Christians complain that vast effort to destroy the holiday is being waged, while non-Christians complain that Christianity gets rammed down their throat every December.
When we say “Happy Holidays†we mean, “Have a good time throughout the Holiday Seasonâ€. Well, the Holiday Season is a broad amalgamation of customs and activities. Not only does the season encompass a number of formal holiday observances— Hanukkah, Winter Solstice, Christmas, Kwanzaa, and New Years, but all the decorations, gift giving, caroling, family feasts, and helping the poor reflect a much deeper set of traditions.
The nights of late December are the longest of the year and such a gloomy time is begging for something to brighten it up. Of course, ancient tribal peoples felt the need to conduct rituals to bring back the Sun, and to do life-affirming things like gathering with loved ones, decorating with evergreens, sharing resources, and engaging in revelry. And the winter solstice is an obvious turning point in the annual cycle, a natural time to take stock and mark the new year. All this has made the onset of winter is something for everyone to look forward to rather than dread.
Cultures naturally placed a lot of religious significance on the solstice season, emphasizing themes of rebirth—as with the Sun—and honoring certain important gods. The Norse called it Yule or Yuletide and honored the gods Freyr and Odin, and the Romans called it Saturnalia in honor of the god Saturn. When Christians began celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25th, it fit in nicely, since to revisit the origin of the faith is for it to be born anew for the coming year.
But traditions that were common throughout the West, such as family feasting, gift-giving, public revelry, remained popular and well-entrenched. So the early Church pretty much said, “If you can’t like ‘em, join ‘emâ€, and re-cast the festivities as joyful anticipation at the prospect of participating in the Christ Mass. So technically, “Christmas†is just a church service that has lent its name to a holiday season that has always had a secular side—one that has continued to evolve.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:23 am(continued)
(part 2)
Secularism should not be seen as a divisive concept—one group pitted against the rest of society. Secular simply refers to those aspects of life that do not involve faith in supernatural forces, and in which we all freely participate without regard to religious differences. Cars, computers, sports, shopping—all secular activities. When you get sick, do you go to a faith healer or to a secularist? We’re all secularists most of the time. The government represents all of us and deals with the day-to-day problems of the real world, so it must remain neutral on religious matters, i.e. secular. Private businesses are free to express their owners’ faith all they like, but most prefer to present a secular face in order to attract the broadest clientele.
There have been a lot of complaints that religion is being “driven out†out of the “public squareâ€, but that is not the case. Anyone is free to get up on a soapbox in the public square and deliver a sermon (or write a letter to the editor or rent a billboard) and everyone else is free not to listen. But permanent fixtures on government property become government speech, and we’re not free not to listen to the government. In short, you can express your religion in the public square, but not with the public square.
Instead of setting a manger scene in front of the courthouse, what’s wrong with setting it up in front of the church down the street?
So Christian conservatives are bearing false witness when they accuse their opponents of trying to destroy Christmas (however you define it). But non-Christians needn’t shun the holiday altogether, and many don’t. Most atheists and some Jews celebrate the secular side. And I’ve recently learned from co-workers that Hindus in India celebrate Christmas with gusto. But it’s sad many non-Christians feel they cannot participate. Culture warriors on both sides should recognize that there is common ground in which everyone can share. (I’d say that the Christmas tree—call it the Tannenbaum—is the universal emblem of the season.) The trend is already underway. After all, who doesn’t wapresents from Santa Claus? Not to mention peace on Earth and good will towards all.
-Patrick McCauley
For more Culture War smackdown, visit: http://www.squeakywheelsblog.com/culture
December 13th, 2007 at 11:24 amComment by Arn Gunnutes — December 13, 2007 @ 10:40 am
Easy there, bud. If I ever find myself referring to folks the way you do, I’ll definitely be concerned about how God feels about me, though my salvation is assured and can never be in jeopardy, thanks. I’d hate to see how ya refer to folks that you do hate. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 5:28 pmThe arrogance and self righteousness of the religionists on this thread perfectly illustrates why we don’t let them prescribe religious observance for the rest of us.
In their own words, they provide the best possible argument against their case.
Would you want to even casually imagine living in a world where they tell you where, when and how to pray as well as who to pray to?
The writers of the constitution made plenty of mistakes but one thing they certainly got right was keeping various people’s imaginary friends in the sky out of government for the rest of us.
Comment by lebowski — December 13, 2007 @ 10:52 am
You must be speaking of people other than Christians, because Christians pray when, where and how they chose. We don’t tell other people how or whether to pray. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 5:31 pmComment by upright left #232
I’m talking, in reference to this thread, specifically about you and one other poster. Fundamentalists like you, of whatever religion, are anathema to democracy because you think you and you alone have the imaginary cell phone number of your imaginary friend in the sky.
And, yes, plenty of christians are very into prescribing religion to others. If you’re so humble and never intrude on others, why do you need the resolution?
Answer: you need it because you are incredibly insecure in your faith and you only feel good about it if you believe everyone else believes as you do.
You’re entitled to your own beliefs, however bizarre; but why do you fundies feel such a need to push your superstitions on others?
(And don’t try another lame “what, me?” cop out. If you support the resolution, you support pushing your religion on others.)
December 13th, 2007 at 6:11 pmComment by lebowski — December 13, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
Sorry, bud, but my faith is rock solid. How does my belief that Jesus is the only salvation affect you? It’s your business whether you accept it or not, not mine. It doesn’t affect me either way. I have never pushed anyone to accept Christ. God didn’t make us believe. It’s certainly not that place of any human being to try to coerce others. Now, if you believe that my stating my belief when the subject arises is coercion, you misunderstand coercion. As for the resolution, I would not have supported it had two other religions not already been so honored. The government isn’t currently trying to remove all vestiges of Christianity from public view. Individuals are doing that. But since Congress saw fit to honor two religions practiced by a minority of people in this country, I think it’s only fair to pass a resolution honoring the majority religion. ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 8:28 pmIf your faith is so rock solid, why the unending need for affirmation from others?
A previous poster noted that it’s relevant that the other resolutions recognized minority religions in an effort to affirm the rights and status of their adherents despite their being in minorities. Christianity, being the majority religion, is not in need of such affirmation, the ridiculous claims of persecution of christians in this country aside.
Demanding this resolution and framing it in the context of the so called war on christmas and the larger alleged persecution of christians is utterly ridiculous. It betrays insecurity and pettiness on the part of its backers and, if they were the slightest bit self reflexive, would cause them immense embarrassment.
As it is, however, their delusions of give them an arrogant self righteousness that is invisible to them but all too apparant to the rest of us.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:54 pmIf your faith is so rock solid, why the unending need for affirmation from others?
A previous poster noted that it’s relevant that the other resolutions recognized minority religions in an effort to affirm the rights and status of their adherents despite their being in minorities. Christianity, being the majority religion, is not in need of such affirmation, the ridiculous claims of persecution of christians in this country aside.
Demanding this resolution and framing it in the context of the so called war on christmas and the larger alleged persecution of christians is utterly ridiculous. It betrays insecurity and pettiness on the part of its backers and, if they were the slightest bit self reflexive, would cause them immense embarrassment.
As it is, however, their delusions of give them an arrogant self righteousness that is invisible to them but all too apparant to the rest of us.
Comment by lebowski — December 13, 2007 @ 8:54 pm
I need no one to affirm my faith, thanks. And if libs hadn’t become so quick to attack Christianity while ignoring a religion that has a large contingent that advocates violence, Christians wouldn’t feel that their religion needed to be defended. We see the gradual erosion of the place of Christianity as a problem and prefer to slow it as much as possible. As for the self righteous business, that would depend upon your definition. Some use it to mean being certain that your belief is the only correct one. Others use it to mean thinking you are better than others because of your belief. I’ve already explained that most Christians don’t think they are better than others because of what they believe. If you choose to believe otherwise, go for it, bud. You have every right to be wrong. As for being certain that our belief is the only correct one, we are like most other religions and atheists in that respect. Atheists believe there is no God and everyone who believes otherwise is wrong. If I’m self righteous in that respect, so are you, bud. To say otherwise would be hypocritical.
December 14th, 2007 at 3:14 amA religion practiced by a minority doesn’t deserve to be recognized more than any other. The constitution already protected their rights. Libs keep saying this resolution is a huge deal. Making Christianity our national religion. Yet you downplay the same honor given to other religions. You just can’t see that you are applying different standards to the religion that you most dislike. ;)
You can repeat over and over again that you don’t need affirmation from others but that doesn’t make it so. It’s clear that you do.
Also, your remarks regarding Islam and ‘libs’ shows a distinctly unchristlike view towards others. But there’s nothing new in a fundamentalists also being a hypocrite.
You also appear incapable of nuanced thought, but again, nothing surprising there for a fundamentalist to have the worldview of an eight year old.
So go ahead and keep sputtering your nonsense but please don’t feign surprise when you encounter resistance from those of us based in reality.
December 14th, 2007 at 12:09 pmYou can repeat over and over again that you don’t need affirmation from others but that doesn’t make it so. It’s clear that you do.
Also, your remarks regarding Islam and ‘libs’ shows a distinctly unchristlike view towards others. But there’s nothing new in a fundamentalists also being a hypocrite.
You also appear incapable of nuanced thought, but again, nothing surprising there for a fundamentalist to have the worldview of an eight year old.
So go ahead and keep sputtering your nonsense but please don’t feign surprise when you encounter resistance from those of us based in reality.
Comment by lebowski — December 14, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
I know, bud. You can’t stand that there are people who are secure in their faith. It’s common among your kind. Can’t help ya there. You’ll just have to deal with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that means I think I’m superior. Gotcha.
December 14th, 2007 at 8:44 pmA Christlike view of others requires the desire that all would come to know Christ and be saved. I wish eveyone would but we all know that many won’t. That’s not my fault, bud.
Libs are fond of using the term “nuanced thought” when they can’t shake a person of faith. Again, I understand your need to try to make sense of your stance in light of strong faith. If “nuanced thought” makes you feel you made a point, go for it, bud.
I am never surprised at resistance from those of no faith in regard to the practice of religion by those who have faith. That resistance would be the reason for this topic. Resist away, bud. ;)
You’re clearly not interested in or capable of rational debate. You just keep posting tripe in the apparent delusion that having the last word, no matter how inane, equals victory. Keep believing that — the rest of us know better.
December 14th, 2007 at 10:50 pmYou’re clearly not interested in or capable of rational debate. You just keep posting tripe in the apparent delusion that having the last word, no matter how inane, equals victory. Keep believing that — the rest of us know better.
Comment by lebowski — December 14, 2007 @ 10:50 pm
Was that nice? Seriously, bud, I’m just trying to correct your false assumptions. I’m trying to help ya out so ya know how it really is. ;)
December 14th, 2007 at 11:33 pmComment by upright left
Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot.
December 15th, 2007 at 12:04 am