Thompson: ‘I Don’t Care’ What The Intelligence On Iran Says, The NIE Is ‘Foolishness’
Thompson: ‘I Don’t Care’ What The Intelligence On Iran Says, The NIE Is ‘Foolishness’
On Glenn Beck’s radio show yesterday, former Sen. Fred Thompson (R-TN) said he doesn’t care what the new National Intelligence Estimate on Iran says. Iran is “undoubtedly intent upon nuclear weapons,” Thompson said, explaining, “I don’t care what this latest NIE says.” The former actor then dismissed the intelligence that Iran has halted its nuclear weapons program as “foolishness”:
They’re undoubtedly intent upon nuclear weapons. I don’t care what this latest NIE says. That’s foolishness that represents our own inability to get a handle on it more than anything else.
Listen to it:
Thompson’s baseless analysis seems to come straight from his gut rather than any established facts.
On the Charlie Rose Show last week, Thompson conjured a conspiracy theory, claiming that Iran “leaked” the intelligence to “divert our attention a little bit.” In a posting on Red State, he mused that the NIE was “awfully convenient for a lot of people.”
One group for whom the NIE is not “convenient,” however, is hawks like Thompson. Since its release last week, neocons — who don’t have access to the intelligence — have been questioning the NIE because it doesn’t fit their world views:
Norman Podhoretz: “I entertain an even darker suspicion. It is that the intelligence community, which has for some years now been leaking material calculated to undermine George W. Bush, is doing it again.
Daniel Pipes: The NIE is a “shoddy, politicized, outrageous parody of a piece of propaganda” that “makes war against Iran more likely.”
Danielle Pletka: “This NIE was presented with a clear intention to deceive and to redirect foreign policy… I have no doubt that these people [the intelligence community] believe they are protecting the nation from the President.”
As the National Security Network pointed out yesterday, Thompson and his fellow hawks are doing everything they can to “to generate smoke where there is no fire” regarding the NIE’s credibility.
In doing so, they disregard the fact that the intelligence was heavily vetted, the process was overseen by a Bush administration appointee and even Vice President Cheney has said he doesn’t “have any reason to question” the NIE’s findings.
UPDATE: In a Q&A with US News and World Report today, Thompson says he’s “wondering if [the NIE] is an indication of the intelligence community being somewhat politicized.”
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did grandpa fred take his meds yet?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:51 pmthey are protecting the nation from the President
Somebody needs to protect us from the incompetent, dangerous dry-drunk.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:52 pmI wish Iran would get nukes to wipe out the Zionist enetity.
Israel has their own nukes. Nobody will ever launch a nukular attack on them.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:53 pmFreddy T, shooting from the hip, blowing off one toe after the other.
Keep it up, Frodo…
December 12th, 2007 at 12:54 pmFred Thompson is the conservatiev america needs.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:55 pmRamu the Eel, you haven’t beheaded yourself for your defamation of the Qu’ran on the prior post?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:55 pmUmar Lee: “I wish Iran would get nukes to wipe out the Zionist enetity.”
Hey stupid. That would involve the incineration of millions of women and children which your book expressly forbids. Man, wise up. You don’t even have a child’s grasp of your own philosophy.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:55 pmComment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Better be respectfl to this next president
December 12th, 2007 at 12:56 pmJD: “Fred Thompson is the conservatiev america needs.”
Right. America needs a tired, lazy old fool who’s married to a woman three years younger than his daughter.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:57 pmFred Thompson is the conservatiev america needs.
Comment by JD Murphy — December 12, 2007 @ 12:55 pm
what’s a “conservatiev”?
December 12th, 2007 at 12:57 pmUmar Lee is fake. I don’t care if he has a website. For all we know, it is a troll impersonating Umar.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:58 pmI have no doubt that these people [the intelligence community] believe they are protecting the nation from the President.â€
Thank god. Someone has to protect the nation from the pResident!
December 12th, 2007 at 12:59 pmJD Murphy: “Better be respectfl to this next president”
Sure, and I’m sure you will feel that way no matter who gets elected. I look for conservatives to be highly respectful of a president Edwards, Obama or Clinton… just like they were in the 90’s.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:59 pmLooks like the World War Economy is doing just fine:
Israel is 4th largest arms exporter
Yet another reason Israel welcomed the US occupation of Iraq, no doubt.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:00 pmUh….Freddy, I think that maybe you are unqualified to be pres. You have shown yourself now to be too dangerous to have your wrinkled finger near the RED BUTTON.
Not Qualified to be President. Next in line please step up.
Buck Fush
December 12th, 2007 at 1:01 pmSince Hillary will be the next president and Obama her Veep,
your rightwing NUTJOBS better respect your next president and Veep!
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 12th, 2007 at 1:01 pmThe Modern GOP - where Hunches trump Facts any day.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:02 pmUmar Lee: “Ret. Col. Jack Ripper ,
You obviously don’t know the Koran.
It orders Muslims to wage war until the whole war is Islamic.”
I’m not sure which passage you think actually says this, but in a number of places it expressly says that it is a crime against Allah to kill innocents, women and children. And, this is a secular society, so I feel free to not only talk to you about your religion, but to ridicule it if I want to. If you can’t handle that, you shouldn’t be living in a secular society. And, by the way, the latest polls taken in Iran show that a grand total of about 3% of the population agree with the idea of a “World-wide Caliphate.” But, don’t let facts get in the way of your ridiculous dogma.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:03 pmHow long before the msm lets the Thompson campaign expire quietly in a corner?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmthese consternatives wouldn’t be making comments like this if the NIE said (sadly) what they wanted it to…
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmFred Thompson is the conservatiev* america* needs. (conservative) (America)
Better be respectfl* to this next president*(respectful) (.)
Comment by JD Murphy
As smart as they come from the conservatives.
Buck Fush
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmThe NIE makes a war with Iran MORE likely? Sounds like Rove’s spin about the Dems, not Bush, pushing to start the Iraq war
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmUmar Lee: “When my Progressives allies win next year…”
OK, you’re obviously a sick, sociopathic conservative troll who wouldn’t know how to make an honest argument if it was staring you in the face. You are no Muslim.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmThis Umar has to be flagged out of existence - will others join me in reporting him away?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pmFred Thompson, is he still relevant? All the repub bottom feeders like Thompson will try to out patriot each other.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:05 pmJD, in case you haven’t been watching anything but Fux Noose, Thompson is running out of money and is way, way behind in all of the Republican polls. Your hoped-for saviour doesn’t exist. There’s a Republican debate on MSNBC in a little while, why don’t you watch it and see if he can keep his teeth in?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:05 pmThis Umar has to be flagged out of existence - will others join me in reporting him away?
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
A call to arms!!!!!
December 12th, 2007 at 1:06 pmThompson got lots of fluffing in the corporate media as the savior when he first announced. Then, people got a look at him and heard his speeches. Since then, he has continued to fall to the point where he’s in single digits on some polls. People like JD haven’t noticed.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:07 pmA nimrod candidate talking to another nimrod on a radio show. It’s time for a nap for Grampa Fred.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:08 pm“Better be respectfl to this next president”
Please at don’t least don’t ask that we respect your unable-to-spell, loser a**.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:09 pmIs that what the Rethugs are all about. .. disregarding all intelligence? Why are we bothering to pay billions for all these security agencies when the Repugs just blow off the information. A ouija board will suffice for them, or a gut lying about.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:10 pmCNN Poll: Obama catches Clinton in New Hampshire
http://www.cnn.com/ 2007/ POLITICS/ 12/ 12/ obama.newhampshire/ index.html
December 12th, 2007 at 1:11 pmRamu the Eel, you haven’t beheaded yourself for your defamation of the Qu’ran on the prior post?
Comment by RUCerious — December 12, 2007 @ 12
Are you sure?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:11 pmWOW, I got to get me a job in Hollywood as an actor so I can know more than 16, count em, Sixteen intelligence agencies full of covert agents!
December 12th, 2007 at 1:11 pmI dont care what Fred Thompson says, the Hollywood sect is foolishness!
December 12th, 2007 at 1:13 pmconservatiev; Russian caviar on a neo- con server.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:13 pmWelcome to the New Republican Reality where the truth is your own personal opinion. Oh and don’t bother subjecting that truth to what you said yesterday or what anyone else has to say. As long as you say you believe it that is all you need.
They create their own reality, remember? Too bad they never seem to step outside of it anymore.
The fact that no one can agree on anything anymore is entirely a product of the intentional undermining of concepts such as The Truth. What a bunch of mental patients.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:13 pmso for those of you keeping score at home, the repubs don’t care what the intelligence community thinks, in addition to not caring what 2/3 of the american people think. this is standard straussian, “only i can understand the esoteric meaning of the world” b.s.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:14 pmFred Thomson is a Real American. He’s a born expert in everything he doesn’t know the first thing about and thus would make an ideal replacement for Bush.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:16 pmdie Now: “CNN Poll: Obama catches Clinton in New Hampshire”
Can any Obama supporter explain to me how Obama can lie about his own healthcare plan during the last debate (”My plan covers everyone…”) and NOT have the media call him out on it?
It should be clear to anyone with the most rudimentary critical thinking skills that the corporate media WANTS us to nominate Obama. It should be just as clear that the two front-runners whom the media DOESN’T want us to nominate are John Edwards and Hillary Clinton because they completely ignore Edwards and bash the hell out of Clinton all while they’re kiss, kiss, kissing with Barak Obama.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:17 pmIt’s stupid statements like this that get the air time that the conservatives thrive and depend on. Thompson and Tredeco are probably funded to get equal time or more time for conservatism and its outlandish philosophies. It’s putting a face on the movement, getting the exposure that is important. Their plan is to go nowhere. These conservatives are picking up where Delay left off. And sadly it works.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:17 pmGreat. Another Republican who doesn’t care what people with expertise think about an issue. He knwos what he knows and that’s all there is to it.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:17 pmOh please….not another f_ckwit going with his gut.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:18 pmThe National Review has decided to thow its inconsequential weight behind Romney, declaring that he is the “Bushiest” candidate.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:18 pmFred is confused because he plays somebody who has a clue on television and doesn’t realize he doesn’t have one in real life.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:18 pmDamn. These guys REALLY love war, don’t they?
I mean, as long as they get to be the guys who stay at home and plan and strategerize and decide how to deploy the men and women who volunteer to serve their country.
But hey, they volunteered, right?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:19 pm43 - Ah yes, the “Empty platitudes from Empty Suits” strategy that the RNC has developed.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:19 pmThe National Review has decided to thow its inconsequential weight behind Romney, declaring that he is the “Bushiest†candidate.
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
I would think that would be a reason to NOT support him.
Unless they’re talking about hairstyle.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:20 pmNIE = best guess.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:20 pmAnother edumacated knuckle-dragger makes an intelligent comment. WTG G-Grandpa Fred! Tomorrow he’s gonna say that he doesn’t care if they are reporting the sun is up as that is just so much foolishness. These people are such preening morons, wallowing in their stupidity. The Republican moto . . . “you make em stupid, we make em Repug stupid.”
December 12th, 2007 at 1:21 pm“best guess”???!!!
16 different agencies work on their areas of expertise for years and this is the way a conservative characterizes it. Modern conservative thinking has collapsed upon itself because it is dominated by corporatism, not conservatism. Conservatives, as a result, almost never make any sense these days.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:23 pmHas the Republican Party undermined the work of the NEI agencies by attacking its findings?
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1285
.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:24 pmComment by Umar Lee
GOT SPAM?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:24 pmAnd some people think this guy should be one day the President of The United Staes.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:25 pmHe is a stubborn uninformed man who is sold on war. He is putting down the intellidence community as a whole.
His answer is: “start bombing now and worry about it later”.
This is the mentality of Podhoretz, Pipes,Wolfowitz,Pearle and the whole gang of Neocon cabal.
Podhoretz said he dreams about bombing Iran all the time.
Fred Thompson or anybody else who is a warmonger should not be in charge,..period.
“you make em stupid, we make em Repug stupid.â€
Comment by scytherius
Oh, that is a GOOOOOD ONE!!! Nice.
Buck Fush
December 12th, 2007 at 1:26 pmY’all, just report the halfwit, Umar Lee.
You can only hit “recommend” once, but you can hit “report abuse” as many times as you want.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:26 pm51 - unless it says Iraq has wmd, right????????
December 12th, 2007 at 1:26 pmWhat’s with all the cross-trolling today? You got JD Murphy pretending to be troll, and then you got Umar Lee, a troll pretending to be a Muslim.
Cripes, people, at least be honest about yourselves. If you’ve got reasonable points to offer, then offer them. if you have to pretend to be something you’re not in order to discredit the other guy, then your arguments probably aren’t that strong.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:26 pmRe: [Thompson] mused that the NIE was “awfully convenient for a lot of people.â€
So was the NIE about Iraq. You know, the billions of $$$ in no-bid contracts for the likes of Halliburton et al.
What an ass.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:27 pmPhony muslim: “Bye the way Ahmadineajd is a hero to Muslims the world over.
Heck he’s a hero to many Progressives.”
Keep talking, stupid. All you do is further demonstrate the fact that you have no grasp on reality. Ahmadineajad is not even that popular in his own country. In their last elections, his faction lost big time. He’s barely holding on to his political power there and, as a lifelong liberal, I can’t think of any liberal or progressive that thinks of him as a “hero.” This, again, is simply a fantasy in your own sick mind and demonstrates that you are a phony.
Oh, and I seem to know more about “your religion” than you do, which is further evidence that you are no muslim.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:27 pmZooey - that’s exactly what I’ve been doing, but I’m either not doing it enough, or too few of the others here are doing it too.
Let’s get rid of the psychopath, shall we??
December 12th, 2007 at 1:27 pm16 different agencies work on their areas of expertise for years and this is the way a conservative characterizes it
The “E” in NIE stands for “estimates”, aka best guesses.
This NIE contradicts the 2005 NIE which came two years after Iran stopped its last attempt at creating a nuke program. The same people who tout the current NIE are the same who condemned the 2005 version.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:28 pmRomney is da bomb. He has physical features that make him perfict for the white hous.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:28 pmFred Thompson renting a pickup truck to bolster his good ol’ boy image during his Senate campaign…now that is foolishness.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:29 pmLet’s get rid of the psychopath, shall we??
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
I’m in.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:29 pm51 - unless it says Iraq has wmd, right????????
Comment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
Nope, that was a best guess too.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:30 pmHas any candidate whose run was so anticipated (by the media and conservatives) been such a complete dud? Not that I’m not smiling with glee, but it really has been one sad spectacle.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:31 pmPhony muslim: “Most posters on here hate Israel.
Read th posts here and you’ll see this is an anti-Zionist website.
If Israel was wiped out many on this site would cheer!”
Again, an adolescent, unthoughtful analysis by a phony conservative masquerading as a radical muslim. You’re not very smart are you. If I may be so bold as to speak for many of the posters here, I would venture to guess that most of them don’t like the political power that conservative Zionists have in our government and object to the way the Isralie government treats Palestinians. That’s a long way from hoping that all the men, women and children of Israel are incinerated in a nuclear holocaust but I would expect such a childish mind as yours to grasp that.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:32 pmFred Thompson renting a pickup truck to bolster his good ol’ boy image during his Senate campaign…now that is foolishness.
Comment by Bad Eye — December 12, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Similar to Kerry toting around a shotgun or delicately nibbling on a philly cheesesteak. The tactic didn’t work for him either.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:33 pmWhy do people listen to a ‘B’ actor inexperienced in foriegn intelligence? Is it purely ‘faith based’? Does the pandering to the ignorant Bible-thumping Jesus-freaks work that well? (I know it works: look who’s in the WH, but it still works so well?)
December 12th, 2007 at 1:34 pmComment by Umar Lee — December 12, 2007 @ 1:32 pm
That’s a direct violation of the Terms of Use, idiot.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:34 pmUmar, even if you think you are a Muslim, polls consistently show that your position represents the thinking of less than 4% of Muslims world-wide. So, you’re about as relevant to Islam as the Christian Identity Movement is to Christianity. Why would I even want to call or email a kook?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:35 pmFred Thompson renting a pickup truck to bolster his good ol’ boy image during his Senate campaign…now that is foolishness.
Comment by Bad Eye — December 12, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Similar to Kerry toting around a shotgun or delicately nibbling on a philly cheesesteak. The tactic didn’t work for him either.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Any wearing a flight suit and landing on a carrier to say Mission Accomplished, like that you mean?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:36 pmThompson is your next leadre.
Get over it
December 12th, 2007 at 1:36 pm-New CNN poll: 70% feel misled about Iraq-
December 12th, 2007 at 1:36 pm“They’re undoubtedly intent upon nuclear weapons. I don’t care what this latest NIE says.” –Fred Thompson
Translation: “Don’t annoy me with facts; I’ve made up my mind.”
December 12th, 2007 at 1:37 pmShaldag: “Similar to Kerry toting around a shotgun or delicately nibbling on a philly cheesesteak. The tactic didn’t work for him either.”
Sure, except that Kerry actually OWNS the shotgun but Thompson’s campaign RENTS the red pickup. A small distinction, but one worth noting.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:38 pmThe same people who tout the current NIE are the same who condemned the 2005 version.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
Such as…? Any examples?
Besides, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to condemn an estimate that is worng and “tout” an estimate that is more rigorously conducted and by all independent accounts closer to the truth. Does that seem unreasonable to you?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:39 pmthen along came Frank.
You Righties gotta ease up - I’ve already got a sideache from laughing.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pmI have been saying this all the time.
This NIE is politically driven attack on the administration by certain elements in the intelligence community who are unhappy about the war in Iraq.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
Saying something wrong doesn’t make it true. 16 intelligence agencies, many of whom disagree on things, created some grand cabal to discredit Bush. Conspiracy theory much?
I think I’ll take the 16 intelligence agencies opinion as opposed to some rube from NJ
December 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pmMethinks Freddy ought to make a nice big fat trip to Teheran and find out for himself what it’s all about.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pmSurely they will be happy to enlighten him and his entourage.
JD: “Thompson is your next leadre.
Get over it”
I wouldn’t want to trouble you with facts or anything, but can you point to ANY poll which shows Thompson beating ANY democrat? Can you show ANY poll which has him even single-digits behind ANY of the Dem frontrunners? Please show it to us and maybe we’ll take ol’ Fred a little more seriously.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pmThis NIE contradicts the 2005 NIE which came two years after Iran stopped its last attempt at creating a nuke program. The same people who tout the current NIE are the same who condemned the 2005 version.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
And some of the same people who touted the Iraq NIE (yes, Thompson) are condemning the Iran NIE. Funny how that works, ain’t it?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:41 pmJD Murphy and Frank M — together at last!
This is like Colbert and Billo on the same program — one’s a fake stupid troll, the other’s genuine.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:43 pmthat’s right Frank, so you keep telling us that the Cheerleader Prince is a good president.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:43 pmSaying something wrong doesn’t make it true.
Yes it does if you say it often and loud enough. Propaganda 101.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Beautiful. Just beautiful.
Unaware disclosure of a truth of identity can be a sublime thing to behold.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:44 pmHell hath no fury like that of a neocon losing an opportunity for trumped-up war.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:45 pm.
Umar,
Who about hooking a brother up with one of those prayer rugs dude? The last one I got we had to shove under the tire of the jeep when we were stuck in the mud. My bad.
The dogs love sleeping on them too. Muhammed, the one-eyed hound with ticks refuses to sleep facing Mecca, so I hope that’s not too disrespectful is it?
There is no Umar. Umar and Daryll are the same person.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:46 pm#82: No wonder. The media shows nothing but bad news and buries all the success stories.
Schneider reported. He said the new NIE didnt help Bush. The magic number 2003 for the stop to the Iranian nuke prog is no support for Bush. It looks like a raw deal. ‘You stop your weapons program and we attack Iraq in return.’ The entire Iraqi weapons of mass destruction story was totally made up.
the iranians just need to have 3000 centrifuges quiver at a diffrent speed to produce two isotopes that go boom when smashed together. Its a coocoos egg for any successor
December 12th, 2007 at 1:48 pmno more umar?
December 12th, 2007 at 1:48 pmFrank M. unintentionally informs us what’s important to him in a presidential candidate: “..he’s photogenic, he’s an actor so he knows how to deliver lines in a convincing way…”
Tragicomic.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:48 pmThis NIE is politically driven attack on the administration by certain elements in the intelligence community who are unhappy about the war in Iraq.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
And the administration cherry-picked intelligence re: Iraq to take us into a needless invasion.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:50 pmDeport the SOBs.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:50 pmpodhoretz: Bush doesn’t need the CIA to undermine his administration - he’s doind a first-rate job of it all himself.
Thompson’s still breathing? He’s obviously brain dead.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:51 pmWe need a better class of trolls around here. Sorry JD dummy, even exlax and Daryll rate higher.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:51 pmYou could take a thousand intel agencies with an agenda to tank this presidency and they couldnt hold a candle to that which this group of idiots are doing to themselves. Lame argument for lame brains.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:52 pmSaying something wrong doesn’t make it true.
Yes it does if you say it often and loud enough. Propaganda 101.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Propaganda can make something untrue believed but not make something untrue true (See: Iraq, WMDs).
December 12th, 2007 at 1:52 pm“A rational man is guided by his thinking – by a process of Reason – not by his feelings and desires.” Ayn Rand
December 12th, 2007 at 1:52 pmWe have had nearly 8 years of the opposite among the republicans and several posters today.
Just what we need. Another Republiscum who thinks he is god and is the only one who knows the truth.
He’s sounding more and more like Bush every day.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:53 pmAnd some of the same people who touted the Iraq NIE (yes, Thompson) are condemning the Iran NIE. Funny how that works, ain’t it?
Comment by Bad Eye — December 12, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
No, it’s sad because it shows how badly our intelligence agencies have been co-opted by politics or how our stupid policies against intelligence gathering have made us more vulnerable.
The main authors of the current NIE had it completely different in 2005.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:53 pmShaldag: “The main authors of the current NIE had it completely different in 2005.”
That’s just not true. The problem was NOT that the intelligence community was wrong. It was that the administration cherry picked questionable intelligence which was in the mix and disregarded any intelligence which didn’t support their argument for invasion. Sane Americans realize this now. The administration, as you may recall, “fixed intelligence” around the policy they wanted.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:58 pmwait - we’re supposed to believe that “liberal democrats” hijacked the CiA, NSA, etc….
my eyes won’t roll far enough to express the prima facie absurdity of that insinuation.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:59 pmThe Satanic War Profiteers demand another lucrative war, and that’s what they are going to get, no matter who we vote for.
December 12th, 2007 at 1:59 pmI have been saying this all the time.
This NIE is politically driven attack on the administration by certain elements in the intelligence community who are unhappy about the war in Iraq.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
And upon further evidence and investigation, they saw they were wrong. Pretty simple really, even you should be able to understand.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:00 pmThe main authors of the current NIE had it completely different in 2005.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
Generally, when, over time, new information cause assessments to be updated, the later assessments are considered, y’know, better.
Because they are built on, y’know, more information.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:00 pm“Yes it does if you say it often and loud enough. Propaganda 101.”
When did it change … or did it? When did it become possible for stupid people to ascend to high power because of their unassailable power over the minds of other stupid people? When did our presidents start becoming idiots? When did we start becoming idiot enough to not only let this happen but (like the idiot quoted above) APPLAUD it.
Frank M - today’s reason for thinking people to despair. The stupid people simply have more BIOLOGICAL MASS, partly because they don’t know better than to NOT OVERBREED. Kind of like rabbits. Or something.
I just insulted rabbits. I am sorry.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:00 pmAND, I should take the word of sdome poster here on that, vs. the word of Larry Johnson or Ray McGovern.
puuuhhh-leeeeze.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:00 pmNorman Podhoretz: “I entertain an even darker suspicion. It is that the intelligence community, which has for some years now been leaking material calculated to undermine George W. Bush, is doing it again.”
—————————————
This paranoia is positively Nixonian. WHY — assuming that everything Bush has done has been in the best interests of Americans, and completely above board — would the intelligence community deliberately try to undermine the President?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:01 pmCan somebody out there in Hollywood offer this buffoon a juicy role, so he can make a graceful exit from the disaster his campaign has become?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:02 pmexactly - and we’re supposed to be the party of the “kooky conspiracy theories”??
i’ve got to get out of here, before my bullshit detector gets irreparably damaged.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:02 pmIS ANYONE STILL LISTENING TO THIS OLD FART? HE IS IRRELEVANT!
December 12th, 2007 at 2:03 pmIt’s kind of sad that Thompson doesn’t have more support from the GOP base. He’s an elder man with plenty of life experience, he’s photogenic, he’s an actor so he knows how to deliver lines in a convincing way and he’s a solid conservative. A perfect candidate to run against someone shrill and flaming liberal like Hillary.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:39 pm
you are forgetting about “huck” huckabee perhaps?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:05 pmThomasMc: “The Satanic War Profiteers demand another lucrative war, and that’s what they are going to get, no matter who we vote for.”
Which Democratic candidate is in league with the current crop of corporate war profiteers?
And, isn’t it funny how every four years, people pop up out of their holes to helpfully remind everyone that there is no difference between Repubs and Dems - they said it in 2000 and 2004 and now, magically, here they are again!
I’m hoping people have memories. I’m hoping they remember that these people argued passionately that Bush and Gore were the same. Again, Gore, the nation’s most strident critic of the invasion of Iraq and a Nobel Prize Winner, was JUST THE SAME AS BUSH! How long will be listen to phonies like this?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:05 pm#82: No wonder. The media shows nothing but bad news and buries all the success stories.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:37 pm
You mean the media other than your beloved Fox News don’t you Frankie?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:06 pmI think the Fred Thompson snore campaign, didn’t get out of sleeper mode. Despite the huge run up, it is clear he isn’t going anywhere near the white house.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:07 pmThomas Friedman and the New Republic have come down hard on the NIE trying to paint Ahmedinijad as a pacifist merely seeking nuclear energy.
Also, shame on Reps not making the distinction clear to the American public.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:09 pmYikes. Senile old fart. Guess he’s channeling Ronnie Raygun:
“Facts are stupid things.”
December 12th, 2007 at 2:10 pmFrank M thinks that Fred Thompson is photogenic? Someone please get Frank a gift certificate to LensCrafters for Christmas!
December 12th, 2007 at 2:11 pmOoh, now we’ve got the troll trifecta: JD, Frank M, and now JMH!
December 12th, 2007 at 2:13 pmIt’s been a banner day for trolls, Jane, though some of them have had to run off to class already. I imagine they’ll be back for another bonghits-and-liberal-baiting session later today. F’in fratboys.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:16 pmwait - we’re supposed to believe that “liberal democrats†hijacked the CiA, NSA, etc….
u know bush didnt know also that Oussma hijacks airplanes. OK, plutonium doesnt come out of normal reactors. u need speacial reactors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
the german reactor in iran wasnt a breeder. the american one is a breeder.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:16 pmThe Modern Bush Republicanâ„¢ thinks that intelligence is highly overrated, foolishness even.
The Modern Bush Republicanâ„¢ doesn’t let inconvenient truths get in the way of a predetermined agenda.
http://www.FEARandSMEAR.com
December 12th, 2007 at 2:19 pmJane! Great to see you!
December 12th, 2007 at 2:22 pmNo, it’s sad because it shows how badly our intelligence agencies have been co-opted by politics or how our stupid policies against intelligence gathering have made us more vulnerable.
The main authors of the current NIE had it completely different in 2005.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
And it was NOT politically motivated in 2005 because…you agreed with the findings then? Until you have proof that the NIE is politically motivated (and Thompson pulling it out of his ass does not count), then, well, shut up.
You want to talk about political motivation? What about the billions in no-bid contracts that friends of the Bush administration received? Contracts that companies in other countries were banned from bidding on simply because those countries did not fully support Bush’s folly in the Middle East. Money supplied from the American taxpayer, much of which was supposed to be sourced from oil revenues (another f-king lie from this “administration”). And just how is that contracted work going? Let’s see…billions of wasted and/or missing money. Construction work that is substandard. Halliburton giving our troops contaminated water (and a Congress and president that don’t appear to give a damn). Contractors who can shoot and kill anybody they want to in Iraq, whether friend or foe, for any reason, and not face ANY repercussions. Yeah, just lovely.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:22 pmComment by tombaker — December 12, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
Yeah, what’s with them today? Not that I’m around much during the day so I don’t get to see the usual troll pattern, but, hell, are these trolls the best the RNC could afford? Who would waste their money paying someone to support Thompson on a liberal blog?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:23 pmHey, Ralph, my compliments, you’ve been coming up with some great comments the last couple of days! I’m home sick, so I finally have the chance to hang out here during the day. Keep up the good work! :)
December 12th, 2007 at 2:27 pmNo, it’s sad because it shows how badly our intelligence agencies have been co-opted by politics or how our stupid policies against intelligence gathering have made us more vulnerable.
Its a 30 year old american breader that produces plutonium or isotopes connected with uranium and plutonium. now they got additionally 3000 centrifuges. there is no intelligence to be gathered. they can produce a nuke anytime.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:31 pmPlutonium is fissile. With fissile materials u can feed:
A thermal reactor, with a neutron moderator
A fast reactor, with no moderator
A nuclear explosive
The Troll are desperate when the WAR CRIMINALS get exposed! Even more amazing are their arguments. Mostly infatile. Goes to show that they have a President in line with their intelect.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:31 pmI meant to type an “S”… Trolls. Sorry english is a second language.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:33 pmAnd it was NOT politically motivated in 2005 because…you agreed with the findings then? Until you have proof that the NIE is politically motivated (and Thompson pulling it out of his ass does not count), then, well, shut up.
I cannot agree or disagree with any of the NIE’s because they are what they are: estimates, best guesses.
Either they are politically motivated or the intel agencies are completely inept or both.
Even the french disagree with the current NIE and IAEA conclusions.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:34 pmGenerally, when, over time, new information cause assessments to be updated, the later assessments are considered, y’know, better.
Because they are built on, y’know, more information.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama
December 12th, 2007 at 2:36 pm“LLAMITA” COULDN’T AGREE WITH YOU MORE!!!!
The Troll are desperate when the WAR CRIMINALS get exposed! Even more amazing are their arguments. Mostly infatile. Goes to show that they have a President in line with their intelect.
Comment by sacopenapa — December 12, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
jas hendler was here but bugged out early again…
“as go the trolls so goes conservatism”
December 12th, 2007 at 2:36 pm- thomas friedman, new republic
Comment by ccokz — December 12, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
Yet the Iranians concealed their enrichment activity and still obfuscate on their progress today.
They have been offered reactor technology, nuclear fuel and technical assistance to create their nuke power program and turned it all down. Why, because they didn’t want ANY of it monitored by outside agencies.
You want to trust the likes of the Iranian regime and a guy like Ahmadinejad with nuclear material that COULD be used for nukes, go ahead, rational minds and sensible people will go on without you.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:39 pmShaldag… you are missing the point. What the NIE report did is to expose Bush and Chenney’s modus operandi that was used in the lead of the invasion/occupation of a nation that had neither: WMD nor conecctions to 9/11. Here they were, talking up the same war drums based yet on more lies. The NIE report exposed the crooks in the White House and Pentagon. They have to rethink other strategies to decieve the american people and the world community. Collin Powell ‘cartoons’ does not work anymore.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:41 pmYou want to trust the likes of the Iranian regime and a guy like Ahmadinejad with nuclear material that COULD be used for nukes, go ahead, rational minds and sensible people will go on without you.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
Ahmadinejad doesn’t even run things in Iran. The fact you don’t even know that makes all your arguments moot.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:42 pmgo ahead, rational minds and sensible people will go on without you.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
go on where?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:42 pmNo wonder. The media shows nothing but bad news and buries all the success stories.
Comment by Frank M — December 12, 2007 @ 1:37 pm
Where are the good-news stories on Fox, Frank? I’ve been asking that for a long time and no one can answer it.
Let’s see what the main page headlines are on Foxnews.com right now, shall we? I’ve heard troops say there are thousands of good-news stories in Iraq; surely there is at least a couple currently on Fox.
- House Panel Checks Iraqi Contractor Rape Claim
Nope. That’s not one. Let’s try the next one…
- Triple Car Bombing Rocks Southern Iraq, Kills Dozens
Darn. Another miss. Let’s see…
- Hayden Knew of Destroyed CIA Tapes Before Taking Over
Not Iraq-related, but “war” on terror related. Still, doesn’t look like good news. Let’s keep trying…
- After Bomb Strikes Young Iraqi Boy, U.S. Troops Work to Save His Limbs
Well, this one might count. Bad that the boy was almost killed by a bomb, but good that the U.S. is helping him.
Well, that’s it. Three bad news stories, and one bad news/good news story. Maybe there are plenty of good-news stories buried elsewhere on the site, but given Fox’s belly-aching about no good news stories and the so-called Liberal Media, you’d think they’d be posted on the front page.
Perhaps, Frank, you can search the Fox archives and find us some good news to report. Say, narrow it to the month of November. Give us the good news to bad news ratio, as we’d be interested. We’ll be waiting.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:43 pmYou want to trust the likes of the Iranian regime and a guy like Ahmadinejad with nuclear material that COULD be used for nukes, go ahead, rational minds and sensible people will go on without you.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12,
December 12th, 2007 at 2:43 pmI RATHER TRUST THEM THAN A TERRORIST LIKE THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER OR THE WAR CRIMINAL IN THE WHITE HOUSE!
“as go the trolls so goes conservatismâ€
- thomas friedman, new republic
I wish you had quoted Glass or Beauchamp.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:43 pmComment by sacopenapa — December 12, 2007 @ 2:43 pm
Ah.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:44 pmYet the Iranians concealed their enrichment activity and still obfuscate on their progress today.
They have been offered reactor technology, nuclear fuel and technical assistance to create their nuke power program and turned it all down. Why, because they didn’t want ANY of it monitored by outside agencies.
Comment by Shaldag
Would you care to back any of that up with proof? I’m betting you won’t. Trolls here throw feces on the wall and when they are asked to prove what they say, they either obfuscate, change the subject, or leave.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:44 pmAhmadinejad doesn’t even run things in Iran. The fact you don’t even know that makes all your arguments moot.
Comment by Blue Stater — December 12, 2007 @ 2:42 pm
alright so he’s a troll wannabe, why don’t you cut him a little slack and quit beating him down with facts? jes hendler’s gone and shaldag’s all we got left.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:45 pmYou want to trust the likes of the Iranian regime and a guy like Ahmadinejad with nuclear material that COULD be used for nukes, go ahead, rational minds and sensible people will go on without you.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
First, I believe that the NIE stated that Iran does not have any of the type of nuclear material that is necessary for nukes, and it will be several years before they possibly could.
And I don’t trust the likes of Bush, Cheney, and most of the Republican warmongering candidates with the nukes that the USA ALREADY HAS, not to mention the type of bunker-buster nukes that Bush wants. Whatever happened to the non-proliferation treaty?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:48 pmThe French aren’t alone, they have the British and the Israelis with them too:
Associated Press October 29th:
PARIS: The defense minister underscored France’s sense of distrust in Iran’s nuclear program, saying Monday that French intelligence makes Paris doubt Tehran’s intentions.
Reacting to a weekend statement by the head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog who said there was no evidence that Iran was working to build nuclear weapons, Herve Morin said France had drawn the opposite conclusion.
“Our intelligence, corroborated by that of other countries, gives us the opposite feeling,” Morin said during a visit to the United Arab Emirates. His comments, made at a news conference, were aired on France’s LCI television.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:49 pmI wish you had quoted Glass or Beauchamp.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:43 pm
why don’t you take that up with jes hendler?
(a real troll btw)
Thomas Friedman and the New Republic have come down hard on the NIE trying to paint Ahmedinijad as a pacifist merely seeking nuclear energy.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 12, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
December 12th, 2007 at 2:49 pm“Best Guess” from 16 top intelligence agencies is much better than Thompson’s “best guess”.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:50 pmJane E. Schneider- WELL SAID!
December 12th, 2007 at 2:53 pm“Best Guess†from 16 top intelligence agencies is much better than Thompson’s “best guessâ€.
Comment by DanCaveman — December 12, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
but thompson was also an actor, just like ronald reagan. right shaldag?
(shaldag will copy and paste an answer for you in just a minute. please be patient.)
December 12th, 2007 at 2:54 pmFirst, I believe that the NIE stated that Iran does not have any of the type of nuclear material that is necessary for nukes, and it will be several years before they possibly could.
Yet they have a desire to up their centrifuge capacity from 3000 to 15000, considering they don’t even have a reactor in which to use that refined material, one can only wonder why they need so much.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:54 pm“Our intelligence, corroborated by that of other countries, gives us the opposite feeling,†Morin said during a visit to the United Arab Emirates.
He’s talking about “feelings” here, not necessarily facts. If Morin thinks that Iran is pursuing nuclear technology to produce a bomb, he’s more than welcome to share his “proof” with the IAEA or the world for that matter. Since he has not provided any proof, just like Bush/Chaney have not provided any proof, I’ll withhold judgment and listen to the experts in our country.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:54 pmYou want to trust the likes of the Iranian regime and a guy like Ahmadinejad with nuclear material that COULD be used for nukes, go ahead, rational minds and sensible people will go on without you.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12,
I RATHER TRUST THEM THAN A TERRORIST LIKE THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER OR THE WAR CRIMINAL IN THE WHITE HOUSE!
Comment by sacopenapa — December 12, 2007 @ 2:43 pm
You raise a good point, Saco.
Shaldag’s response: Ah.
Translated: I KNOW Bush and the Israeli prime minister are TERRORISTS, but uh, uh, …
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 12th, 2007 at 2:55 pmShaldag… You have been asked to back up the assertions you made in #137 with proof. No proof yet…Do you plan on backing up what you say with proof or do you just expect us to believe you because you said it?
You are very good at saying “Iran this and Iran that”, but you are batting zero at backing up what you say. Thus far you have proved yourself to be all hot air and no substance.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:56 pmbut thompson was also an actor, just like ronald reagan. right shaldag?
Sure, but Thompson can look at the obvious discrepancies between this NIE and the last and find fault with it.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:57 pmYeah… Iranian Nukes are everywere… In the North, in the South, In the East and in the West of Bagdad… no no, Tehran! Bring Rumsfeld on, he will know were they are!
December 12th, 2007 at 2:57 pmThanks for soaking up the bandwidth, plunger. A simple link might be a better choice.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:57 pmYet they have a desire to up their centrifuge capacity from 3000 to 15000, considering they don’t even have a reactor in which to use that refined material, one can only wonder why they need so much.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
yeah, and I desire a vintage Ferrari Daytona. Considering that it is capable of somewhere in the neighborhood of 175 mph, one can only wonder why I need so much speed.
Perhaps my neighbors should be worried about my desire to speed through our quiet streets?
December 12th, 2007 at 2:59 pmSure, but Thompson can look at the obvious discrepancies between this NIE and the last and find fault with it.
Comment by Shaldag
Since you are putting yourself forth as an expert on Iran and on the 2005 NIE, how about you educate us as to the discrepancies between the 2005 NIE and the 2007 NIE. From what I have read, there doesn’t seem to be a big difference.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:00 pm(By the way, I don’t have the financial wherewithall to obtain a vintage Ferrari Daytona. Which is part of my point, too.)
December 12th, 2007 at 3:01 pmbut thompson was also an actor, just like ronald reagan. right shaldag?
Sure, but Thompson can look at the obvious discrepancies between this NIE and the last and find fault with it.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
So, tell us WHAT “obvious discrepancies”?
And WHAT does Thompson know about National Security anyway?
He supports PARDONING of a TRAITOR to the USA, “Scooter” Libby, who PERJURED and OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE and helped expose a CIA spy
who specialized in WMD’s, thus Libby et al SABOTAGED NATIONAL SECURITY.
WHY should Thompson have ANY credibility?
Oh, right.
He DOESN’T.
So, again, WHAT “obvious discrepancies”?
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 12th, 2007 at 3:01 pmComment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
There’s a world of difference between the “desire” to get something, and actually getting it. For instance, many conservatives express the desire to add a Constitutional Amendment to “protect the sanctity of marriage”, but that will never happen. Hell, I’ve often stated my “desire” to win the lottery, but…
December 12th, 2007 at 3:02 pmHe’s talking about “feelings†here, not necessarily facts. If Morin thinks that Iran is pursuing nuclear technology to produce a bomb, he’s more than welcome to share his “proof†with the IAEA or the world for that matter. Since he has not provided any proof, just like Bush/Chaney have not provided any proof, I’ll withhold judgment and listen to the experts in our country.
Or in other words “guesses or estimates”, which is what an NIE deals in.
Words of Thomas Fingar (an expert of ours), one of the chief authors of the current NIE, from testimony he gave on July 11, 2007:
“Iran is continuing to pursue uranium enrichment and has shown more interest in protracting negotiations and working to delay and diminish the impact of UNSC sanctions than in reaching an acceptable diplomatic solution. We assess that Tehran is determined to develop nuclear weapons–despite its international obligations and international pressure. This is a grave concern to the other countries in the region whose security would be threatened should Iran acquire nuclear weapons.”
December 12th, 2007 at 3:05 pmThompson can read scripts, and cash checks, and that’s about it.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:05 pmBut gee, Plunger, if we can’t rely on sloppy and misqoted translations to vilify brown foreigners, how are we supposed to bring freedom to the world?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:07 pmThe Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse
A course of action disposed of long before this article ever saw the light of day. No one and I mean NO ONE is going to trust the Iranians with managing the oil trade or the money inherent with such commerce.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:08 pmbut thompson was also an actor, just like ronald reagan. right shaldag?
Sure, but Thompson can look at the obvious discrepancies between this NIE and the last and find fault with it.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
on the other hand maybe you haven’t heard of a guy by the name of “huck” huckabee, eh?
(but you will)
December 12th, 2007 at 3:13 pmFred you really need to stop drinking.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:13 pmComment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
No one, and I mean NO ONE, is going to trust the U.S. with anything after all that Bush has done. Do you really think that anyone is going to want to keep holding on to their sinking U.S. dollars for much longer?
December 12th, 2007 at 3:15 pmComment by joe cantwell — December 12, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
Nonsensical, you should say what you are thinking instead of tiredly trolling for a desired response.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:15 pmAnd these clowns never, ever talk about the cost of such a strike.
The shutting down of the Straits of Hormuz, the effect on oil supplies.
The Chinese and Russian responses?
The Shiite militia’s in Iraq cutting off supply lines to our troops?
Follow with invasion? With what army?
Wake up dummies, as the Pentagon says “There’s no good military option”…
December 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pmthe discrepancies with the NIE, is it doesn’t match up with what Bush has been saying for several years. Very little to do with reality.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pmNonsensical, you should say what you are thinking instead of tiredly trolling for a desired response.
Comment by Shaldag — December 12, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
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gotcha!
December 12th, 2007 at 3:18 pmshaldig; and you trust Bush/Cheney with nukes? HoooooooBoy.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:20 pmComment by Jane E. Schneider — December 12, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
The dollar represents an eleven trillion dollar economy, not something one would easily ignore if they want to succeed and prosper, especially with trade and commerce.
That same falling dollar is creating frustration and concern in Asia and Europe because it makes American goods and travel cheaper which then nagetively affects their own economy.
If you have even a jot of economic acumen then you would understand the increasingly global intertwining of national economies has become a self-fulfilling dependency for everyone involved.
The current state of the dollar has happened before and will happen again. Do your research and find that out for yourself, reference the state of the dollar between 1985 and 1993 when it fell into roughly the same position it is now.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pm