ThinkFast: December 13, 2007
ThinkFast: December 13, 2007
A federal judge upheld a California law “regulating greenhouse gas emissions from cars and trucks” yesterday. The ruling, which affirms a 2002 law increasing fuel economy, is “another in a string of legal defeats for the auto industry this year.”
European nations at the U.N. conference in Bali, yesterday “threatened to boycott U.S.-led climate talks next month unless Washington accepts” a draft document “suggesting that industrialized nations consider cutting emissions by 25 percent to 40 percent by 2020.”
Twenty-eight retired generals and admirals wrote to the House and Senate intelligence committees yesterday, “urging them to require the CIA to abandon harsh interrogation techniques. Among the signers were two retired Army generals who investigated the Abu Ghraib detainee abuses in Iraq, Gen. Paul J. Kern and Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba.”
In 2002, Marine Col. Ralph H. Kohlmann, who is now the chief judge of the military commissions at Guantanamo Bay, “wrote a paper on the Bush administration’s plan to use military commissions to try Guantanamo suspects, concluding that ‘even a good military tribunal is a bad idea.’”
“Diplomatic posts at the State Department and U.S. embassies worldwide will be cut by 10 percent next year because of heavy staffing demands in Iraq and Afghanistan, Director General Harry Thomas informed the foreign service yesterday.”
109: The record number of soldiers who “have killed themselves this year, according to Army statistics showing confirmed or suspected suicides.”
A new report by the American Institute of Philanthropy says that “eight veterans charities, including some of the nation’s largest, gave less than a third of the money raised to the causes they champion, far below the recommended standard.”
Center for American Progress Senior Fellow Mark Agrast urges Congress to support the conference report on the FY2008 Intelligence Authorization bill, which would outlaw CIA interrogation methods that are not authorized by the Army Field Manual.
And finally: The new video game “DC Smackdown” pokes “evenhanded fun” at public figures with 17 figures, including Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter, and Jesse Jackson. The final two levels of the game involve “combat between former Vice President Al Gore and President George W. Bush. … Gore has a ‘CO2 fart attack,’ while Bush has a Karl Rove attack. Dressed like the grim reaper, Rove passes through and steals the opponent’s soul.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Good morning, campers.
CIA interrogation techniques = Gestapo methods.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:04 amA federal judge upheld a California law “regulating greenhouse gas emissions from cars and trucks†yesterday. The ruling, which affirms a 2002 law increasing fuel economy, is “another in a string of legal defeats for the auto industry this year.â€
The problem is that the auto industry sees these as “defeats” and not “challenges”. Now they’ve spent money and time fighting a law that they could have spent on finding a solution.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:10 amAnd in other news (get ready for this):
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html
Democratic lawmakers and staffers privately say they’re closing in on a broad budget deal that would give President Bush as much as $70 billion in new war funding.
The deal would lack a key provision Democrats had attached to previous funding bills calling for most U.S. troops to come home from Iraq by the end of 2008, which would be a significant legislative victory for Bush.
Democrats admit such a move would be highly controversial within their own party. Coming just weeks after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California, vowed the White House would not get another dollar in war money this year, it would further antagonize the liberal base of the party, which has become frustrated with the congressional leadership’s failure to push back on Bush’s Iraq policy.
THE DEMS ROLL OVER AND TAKE IT UP THE BUTT AGAIN!!!
December 13th, 2007 at 9:12 amWhy do veteran’s charities hate the veterans?
December 13th, 2007 at 9:15 amWashington accepts†a draft document “suggesting that industrialized nations consider cutting emissions by 25 percent to 40 percent by 2020.â€
This should be right up the Bushie’s alley. If it “suggests” that nations “consider” cutting emissions, it really won’t accomplish anything.
I wonder when the earth is going to reach the tipping point where we won’t be able to repair the damage we have caused in a lifetime? Some scientists seem to think that we are perilously close to that point now.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:17 amWhy does the Dim leadership hate the real base of the party? reid, pelosi, emanuel, schumer, et. al. will be converting fewer rethug districts and states to blue. They will simply not get the party base to go out and work as in 2006. There is no point. This extends to the gutless presidential candidates as well.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:20 amIn other news today, GOP candidates called for deep cuts in spending and sacrifice by millions of Americans who depend on government services.(health care, social security, and medicare).
Note, NONE called for the filthy rich to sacrifice any of their huge tax cuts.
THE GOP is practicing class warfare. A war on the poor and working people.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:21 am“The terrorists, after being defeated in Musa Qala, attempted to put pressure on Sangin district. During 48 hours of intense clashes around Sangin, over 50 terrorists have been killed,†the ministry said in a statement.
http://afp.google.com/ article/ ALeqM5hKvI97zs1YWCl_youiNbB9aq0Hqw
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 13, 2007 @ 9:
so why aren’t out troops coming home, CHL? seems like US troops can only accomplish anything by getting out of the way, let’s bring them home.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:22 am#7 Pssst, its because of the gawddamn DLC.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:22 amTHE GOP is practicing class warfare. A war on the poor and working people.
Comment by Uncle Ho — December 13, 2007 @ 9:21 am
They’re not practicing class warfare, they’re well-practiced. They’re waging all-out war on the middle class; Ican just imagine them in their boradrooms, chuckling about how it won’t be long before there are plentyof poor Americans who will fight illegal immigrants for lettuce-picking jobs.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:23 am“The fighting took place in a district of Helmand province neighbouring Musa Qala, where the Afghan army”
We are not needed there. GET THE TROOPS OUT NOW!!!!
December 13th, 2007 at 9:24 amHow long will it be before we are told that the 50 Taliban fighters were actually women and children hiding in their houses?
December 13th, 2007 at 9:26 amIt’s not just veterans charities that fall below an acceptable efficiency mark — many charities spend so much on administration and fund-raising that relatively little money actually goes to benefit those the charity supposedly exists for.
Do you have a favorite charity? Check out its efficiency rating at http://www.charitynavigator.org and look it up on the A-Z directory.
Unfortunately, this site doesn’t rate churches and any faith-based charity (such as the Salvation Army) that’s not required to file a Form 990 — simply because they don’t have enough data without it. Even though they aren’t listed on this site, many faith-based charities are very efficient (most don’t spend wads of money on fundraising, for example), and should not be discounted. If you give to a faith-based charity, you can probably find out their efficiency record by contacting the church or charity directly.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:28 amn 2002, Marine Col. Ralph H. Kohlmann, who is now the chief judge of the military commissions at Guantanamo Bay, “wrote a paper on the Bush administration’s plan to use military commissions to try Guantanamo suspects, concluding that ‘even a good military tribunal is a bad idea.’â€
I am constantly amazed at how quickly the Bush Administration can corrupt people. Here we have someone who wrote a very intelligent and thorough paper on how bad the military commissions would be for this country and now he is the head of the military commissions. How do they corrupt these people? Do they use bribes or blackmail?
December 13th, 2007 at 9:29 amAs I recall, several years ago we had a crisis with a hole in the atmosphere due to the expeller gas in spray cans. We were told then that man’s actions were not really to blame and the crisis could not be affected by human change of expeller gas. Changes were made because law makers were convinced of our ability to change. The atmospheric crisis passed very soon after production changes were made.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:36 amThe report says satellite data indicates greenhouse computer models ignore the mitigating effects of clouds and water vapor on the warming properties of carbon dioxide. It says climate change is most likely caused by variations in solar winds and associated magnetic fields.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 13, 2007 @ 9:27 am
Three against thousands, the usual GOP bullshit. CHL, you should take your head out of your ass once in a while, but you never will.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:36 amRegarding veteran charities (and all charities). This is the time of year that many will seek to give to a charity. Its important and prudent to choose one that gives the most bang for your buck. I tend to look locally and take time to visit the organization.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:40 amIt is a sad thing to have discovered one of the vet organizations covered in the article was from my own city. But, for all the advertising dollars they say they spent, I had never heard of them.
Gore blames US for climate inaction
Al Gore, the former US vice-president turned climate campaigner, has blamed the US for blocking progress at UN climate talks in the Indonesian island of Bali
The US is the main block preventing 190 nations in Bali from negotiations on a global climate pact to succeed the Kyoto Protocol from 2012.
http://english.aljazeera.net/English
HOW BACKWARD CAN AMERICA GO ?????
December 13th, 2007 at 9:40 amCIA interrogation techniques = Gestapo methods.
Comment by Uncle Ho — December 13, 2007 @ 9:04 am
CIA interrogation techniques = Saddam methods
And isn’t that the reason he had to be deposed, and put on trial, and executed?
December 13th, 2007 at 9:41 amLefty Patriot; yup, you’re right. A race to the bottom for wage earners. We soon will be fighting illegal immigrants, Chinese, or anyone else for jobs paying $0.08/day if the corporate class gets its way.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:42 amBALI, Indonesia – Al Gore said Thursday the United States is “principally responsible” for blocking progress at the U.N. climate conference, and European nations threatened to boycott U.S.-led climate talks next month unless Washington compromises on emissions reductions.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bali_climate_conference;_ylt=AvolbMsPtloRP5mcu1fg.ams0NUE
December 13th, 2007 at 9:42 amI’ll be happy to accept a greenhouse gas cut if China and India agree to as well at the same levels. Otherwise it would be to expensive for our economy.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:43 amClinton camp targets Obama’s cocain use.
http://apnews.myway.com/ article/ 20071212/ D8TG6QUG0.html
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 13, 2007 @ 9:29 am
It’s sad, but I imagine most people won’t pay that much attention to this. Obama has already admitted his past drug use — in print, no less — so he’s more or less inoculated against any smear campaign on that subject.
Bill Shaheen’s prediction that Obama’s past drug use will be a major issue merely looks pathetic and desperate.
Now that the New Hampshire primary is only about a month away, I suppose we can look forward to candidates of both parties launching hateful lobs at their opponents. What an ugly business this is.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:43 amFreep; If saddam was offed for that, Bush/Cheney should be too.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:43 amAnyone else lamenting the writers’ strike as I am? Olberman is “must see- TV” even more than ever now.
I miss Stewart and Colbert – even Leno and Letterman – the candidates are getting off easy these weeks because there is no one to lampoon their outrageousness.
Yesterday’s debate would have been good fodder.
(Do the repugs talk about anything substantive, or is it all religion?)
The network news is either accidents, weather and fires, or pablum, delivered in ways that please the network honchos.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:43 amCNN is becoming FOX “lite” and their anchors are parrots of Republican talking points.
If MSNBC signs Maddow and she takes over from Tucker, the lame brain, we’d at least get a couple of hours of news we can believe from her and K.O. – even the hard-to-take Matthews can be interesting.
missmolly; thanks for the link, I will check it out.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:44 amNancy Pelosi has banned me from sending her e-mail at her Speaker of the House website. I have been sending her an e-mail every morning telling her what I think about the job she has been doing as Speaker. I guess she got tired of my e-mails, because they were not laudatory, so she had placed my e-mail address on a bounce list. I wrote her today with another e-mail address I use and it worked fine. Oh well, I’ll just keep changing e-mail addresses because I think she needs to know, on a daily basis, what a piss-poor job she is doing as Speaker of the House.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:44 amcold_hard_left
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/08/19/president.2000/bush.drug/
And Bill Clinton didn’t inhale.
Past drug use isn’t exactly a bar to the Oval Office.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:45 amNow that the New Hampshire primary is only about a month away, I suppose we can look forward to candidates of both parties launching hateful lobs at their opponents. What an ugly business this is.
Comment by missmolly
I am so with you on this. Fortunately I don’t have to be subjected to the attack ads. I watch TV recorded on a DVR so I fast forward through commercials. And there aren’t a lot of political commercials on Air America stations. That might change, though.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:47 am“Twenty-eight retired generals and admirals wrote to the House and Senate intelligence committees yesterday, “urging them to require the CIA to abandon harsh interrogation techniques.”
And twenty-eight retired generals and admirals will be ignored. There simply aren’t enough people on these committees who see this as a problem, and those who do are stymied by obstructionist Repubs and cowardly Dems who are afraid to do anything except send a stern letter.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:47 amComment by cold_hard_left — December 13, 2007 @ 9:27 am
One dissenting voice is all you need to cling to your Hummer eh?
December 13th, 2007 at 9:47 amWow, I just got another bounce on the e-mail I sent Nancy Pelosi to her speaker’s contact address. Can someone else try to send her an e-mail to see if she has just cut us all off from contacting her as Speaker of the House? Here’s the contact url:
http://speaker.gov/contact/
Let me know if yours bounces too. You should get a bounce announcement from postmaster.mail.house.gov.
If she is no longer allowing the public to contact her through her Speaker’s website, she must really be on the run! I guess she got tired of people telling her to quit.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:49 amPast drug use isn’t exactly a bar to the Oval Office.
Comment by Bruce Gorton
If the electorate ignored Bush’s cocaine use, I don’t see why they would care about Obama using cocaine in college.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:50 ambtw CHL, have you looked into the background of the authors of that Global Warming study? Do you care?
Prof. David H. Douglass (Univ. of Rochester),
Prof. John R. Christy (Univ. of Alabama),
Benjamin D. Pearson (graduate student), and
Prof. S. Fred Singer
In a February 2001 letter to the Washington Post, Singer denied receiving funding from the oil industry, except for consulting work some 20 years prior. SEPP, however, received multiple grants from ExxonMobil, including 1998 and 2000. In addition, Singer’s current CV on the SEPP website states that he served as a consultant to several oil companies. The organizations Singer has recently been affiliated with – Frontiers of Freedom, ACSH, NCPA, etc. – have recieved generous grants from Exxon on an annual basis.
more fully documented dirt on Singer found here:
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=1
Douglass and Christy are paid writers for the Heartland Institute, a Big Oil Front:
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=41
More on Christy here:
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=903
He’s a member of all the Big Oil front groups.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:51 amClinton camp targets Obama’s cocain use.
http://apnews.myway.com/ article/ 20071212/ D8TG6QUG0.html
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 13, 2007 @ 9:29 am
No more complaints from you about deceitful headlines, bozo.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:52 am
I’ll be happy to accept a greenhouse gas cut if China and India agree to as well at the same levels. Otherwise it would be to expensive for our economy.
Comment by Roger_Roger
Another Republiscum talking point with no basis in reality. Creating new industries to find solutions for alternative energy sources would be a boon to our lagging economy. At least it will be a boon if we don’t outsource it to China or India.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:55 amCIA interrogation techniques = Saddam methods
And isn’t that the reason he had to be deposed, and put on trial, and executed?
Comment by Little Freep Goofballs — December 13, 2007 @ 9:41 am
That’s supposedly the “official” reason. In reality, the US doesn’t really give a rip about how despotic rulers around the world treat their people — otherwise we would be invading a whole lot more countries.
No, we got rid of Saddam because we wanted his oil. That, and to pay him back for trying to kill Daddy Bush.
But it DOES seem a bit hypocritical when we defend our use of torture techniques that we condemn others for using.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:56 amOtherwise it would be to expensive for our economy.
Comment by Roger_Roger — December 13, 2007 @ 9:43 am
This from an Iraq war supporter (from under his mattress of course).
December 13th, 2007 at 9:56 amThen the car dealerships can re-open in Arizona and Nevada…that’s where all of California’s people have been going for a couple decades now.
Comment by O. Bigfoot
OBigFootInMouth misses the most important development in the auto industry. And that is car manufacturers who are producing hybrid cars are running rings around our US auto industry who is just now getting on the fuel-efficient bandwagon.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:58 amWhat say you, Bush admin defenders?
Do you think our Prez and Vice Prez should allow the military and the CIA to use the same “interrogation techniques” that Saddam Hussein and his sons used?
If yes, doesn’t that make Saddam a “good guy” for using whatever method necessary to defend his country?
If no, doesn’t that mean that our Prez and Vice Prez should be deposed, and put on trial, and executed like Saddam?
December 13th, 2007 at 9:59 amThe auto industry should move to discontinue shipping any of it’s product to California, shutting down the entire new car business in the “Golden†State. When no one in California can buy a new car, the state will change it’s tune, especially when all the massive registration fees California charges for new autos starts to dry up, and California’s budget starts to dwindle. Not to mention the further destruction of California’s economy that would occur when hundreds of new car dealserships suddenly shut down.
Then the car dealerships can re-open in Arizona and Nevada…that’s where all of California’s people have been going for a couple decades now.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 13, 2007 @ 9:50 am
It’s a good thing that auto manufacturers are smarter than you, Bigfoot. They’re reasonably conscious, which is more than we can say for you, and realize that a huge portion of their domestic market lives and buys in California, and they’ve been meeting California standards for years now without managing to fold up all those dealerships.
So much for all your bleating about how much you love the great outdoors. “Stink up the air, see if I care!”
December 13th, 2007 at 10:03 amcomment by missmolly @ 9:56
Malcolm X said it best, to quote: “Democracy is hypocrasy.”
December 13th, 2007 at 10:20 amIt says climate change is most likely caused by variations in solar winds and associated magnetic fields.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 13, 2007 @ 9:27 am
Whewn an annoying, self-important twit like CHL posts “meaninngful information” w/ out a link, one needs to take closer look at said info before just accepting it. This, according to Wiki, is who David Douglass is…
“David H. Douglass is an American physicist at the University of Rochester. Douglass is considered a global warming skeptic and his research appears to focus on the role of natural forces and the debunking of anthropogenic climate change. He is a harsh critic of Al Gore and other global warming popularizers and is known to end his talks with an image of the former vice president juxtaposed with the mushroom cloud of a nuclear explosion in order to underscore his dislike of Gore’s ideas. Douglass is a Fellow of the American Physical Society and the NY Academy of Sciences.”
Just so ya know, Douglass would come to his conclusion no matter what.
Solar winds and magnetic fields are making the North Pole ice cap melt.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:24 am41:
Well Clinton had water boarding on the books when he was running things. Why didn’t he ban it? Oh I forgot, he and jaime gorelick put up the wall. Hey maybe that was what was in Sandy Berger’s pants!!! Sounds like a nice conspiracy.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:25 amIf no, doesn’t that mean that our Prez and Vice Prez should be deposed, and put on trial, and executed like Saddam?
Comment by Little Freep Goofballs — December 13, 2007 @ 9:59 am
Careful, LFG, their heads might start imploding.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:25 amSounds like a nice conspiracy.
Comment by Joneser — December 13, 2007 @ 10:25 am
You seem to be awfully interested in what’s going on in Berger’s pants.
Clinton had waterboarding on the books?
WTF is this incoherent gibberish? Just because your mouth says it, or your hands type it, doesn’t mean it’s true or makes sense.
Nice attempt to spread the blame. “Clinton did it too!”
December 13th, 2007 at 10:28 amThen the car dealerships can re-open in Arizona and Nevada…that’s where all of California’s people have been going for a couple decades now.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 13, 2007 @ 9:50 am
This HAS GOT to be one of the stupidest things you’ve ever said, and that’s truly impressive. Go ahead, Dumbo, spend the morning on the Bat-phone, calling auto manufacturers and dealers it’s time to pull up stakes and move.
Nice Jingle Ballsâ„¢, BTW. When you sober up in January, you’re gonna hate the photos folks took of you decked out like that. Ho… ho… ho…
December 13th, 2007 at 10:32 amComment by Joneser —
A wall, or a book? This post screams “too much caffeine.”
December 13th, 2007 at 10:32 amComment by Joneser — December 13, 2007 @ 10:25 am
He didn’t ban it because it had been banned already – in the US constitution.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:32 amComment by barfly — December 13, 2007 @ 10:32 am
Too much stupid more like.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:33 am“Too much stupid more like.”
I blame home-schooling.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:37 am“Well Clinton had water boarding on the books when he was running things. Why didn’t he ban it? Oh I forgot, he and jaime gorelick put up the wall. Oh I forgot, he and jaime gorelick put up the wall. Hey maybe that was what was in Sandy Berger’s pants!!! Sounds like a nice conspiracy.
joneser”
I nominate this post for the lamest “clinton did it!” for a Trollie. It is without a doubt the lamest, funniest “clinton did to” post I’ve ever seen. It combines inchoherence and unintential humor in ways that we may never see again. He executed the triple exclamation point to perfection, drawing attention to both Sandy Berger’s pants and his own repressed sexuality. Well done sir!!!
December 13th, 2007 at 10:40 amWhy all the uproar about banning waterboarding, making it illegal from this point forward? What about murder and child abuse? Shouldn’t we be focusing our efforts on making those bigger issues illegal from this point forward?
What’s that you say? They are already illegal? But so is waterboarding, so why don’t we just call a spade a spade and prosecute the bastards?
December 13th, 2007 at 10:41 am44 Comment by Little Freep Goofballs — December 13, 2007 @ 9:59 am
I always love moral relativism. I mean after all one used it for pleasure, the other to save lives… what’s the difference? “A human being was ‘torchered’” (tears).
December 13th, 2007 at 10:45 am“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke
I mean its like you guys think the President pushes a button for the intercom system, asks hows it going. They tell him they got something, he calls in the bombers a minute later, game over. They vet the information and act accordingly, why would they want to hear you whine and moan some more?
And if it was so bad why did Clinton keep it on the books for his 8 years? And hmm I take it Clinton vetted his information when he decided to bomb an empty aspirin factory? But I forget, he gets a pass. He’s on the team. But hey you got a hate Bush more than the people killing innocent women and children deliberately. The worse victims of Islamic extremists are the muslims and arabs
Well Clinton had water boarding on the books when he was running things. Why didn’t he ban it?
Comment by Joneser — December 13, 2007 @ 10:25 am
Does “Clinton did it too!” have to be your justification for EVERYTHING? It got tiresome a long time ago.
Just because waterboarding may have been “on the books” during Clinton’s presidency doesn’t mean it was being conducted. Clinton probably didn’t see banning a practice that wasn’t being conducted as a top priority.
If waterboarding was being conducted during his presidency, and if that information leaked out, the reaction would be much the same as it is today (probably worse, because Republicans as well as Democrats would have been screaming for Clinton’s head).
But since, in your view, that everything Clinton did was perfectly OK and creates a green light for all subsequent presidents, you will have no objection if Dubya starts diddling his interns.
In the meantime, here’s a news flash — BILL CLINTON ISN’T PRESIDENT ANYMORE!
December 13th, 2007 at 10:47 amjust got here… anyone else see this story?
Colo. Petition Revives Anti-Abortion Bid
By P. SOLOMON BANDA – 2 days ago
DENVER (AP) — A 20-year-old law student has become a cause celebre in the anti-abortion movement for her efforts to have the state Constitution define fertilized eggs as people — a tactic spreading nationwide in bids to neutralize the Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion.
The measure spearheaded by Kristi Burton would give fertilized eggs state protections of inalienable rights, justice and due process, and she needs 76,000 signatures to get it on the state ballot next November.
Similar efforts are under way in Georgia, Michigan, Mississippi and Oregon.
[...]
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHbhKzL-q6SbazRgpk6_Ino2YPZwD8TF4LS00
who ARE these people trying force THEIR ideals on everybody else?
sound familiar, bushies?
December 13th, 2007 at 10:49 am…
re 59
Bush has not saved any lives by torturing people. Clinton did not have torture “on the books” whatever that means. It was illegal from 92 to 2000 and it is still illegal now. It is torture according to the Geneva Conventions. we are signitories of the Geneva Conventions. That means we agree to abide by the terms of The Geneva Conventions. That means we agree not to torture.
Your smokescreen about Clinton is laughable. idiot.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:49 amOh hey BOB!!! you are here… sweet… lol… I love the irony, being that you always seem to seek out fallic and/ or fecal matter in any comment a conservative makes contrary. Good stuff. And if you read instead of projected your own repressions, I never said Clinton did it. I said if it was such a big deal, why didn’t Clinton knock it off the books, being that he is such a true humanitarian, depriving African’s of asprin to stop terrorism.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:53 amClinton? Seriously, that has no bearing on the events today. You have to learn to let go. Try to be one of those thousand points of light. Do it for the gipper. You are not a crook.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:59 amre 63
Speaking of reading, try reading post 62. Your claim that it was “on the books” makes no sense at all. it was not “on the books” as for my “fallic” obssession, I merely point out the repressed nature of republicans. sorry it that touches a nerve with you. Maybe if you spent more time in a shrink’s office and less in pulbic restrooms you’d be a happier person.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:00 amComment by Joneser
I picture Joneser decades from now; in a retirement home, complaining that his bed-sores are Clinton’s fault.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:01 amOh joneser, what are you jonesing for?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:03 amThe auto industry should move to discontinue shipping any of it’s product to California, shutting down the entire new car business in the “Golden†State. When no one in California can buy a new car, the state will change it’s tune, especially when all the massive registration fees California charges for new autos starts to dry up, and California’s budget starts to dwindle. Not to mention the further destruction of California’s economy that would occur when hundreds of new car dealserships suddenly shut down.
Then the car dealerships can re-open in Arizona and Nevada…that’s where all of California’s people have been going for a couple decades now.
Comment by O. Bigfoot — December 13, 2007 @ 9:50 am
That’s an interesting scenario. I’m just trying to imagine the auto industry willingly foregoing the lucrative California market, just because they have to add a couple more doohickies to cars being sold in California to comply with their environmental laws. This has never stopped them before, and it won’t stop them now. Whatever extra costs they incur manufacturing a vehicle to California specifications they just pass onto the California consumer, which the consumer happily pays.
As a former Californian, I know how wedded Californians are to their cars. They would pay double what they are paying now for cars before they would even begin to look for alternate transportation.
It’s as ridiculous as a crack addict swearing off his habit because his pusher raised his prices.
As far as buying a vehicle in a neighboring state? I actually bought a car when I lived in California. Yes, because of the required catalytic converter, I paid a bit more for the car than I would have if I bought in a state that didn’t require it. However, in order to register the car in California, the catalytic converter is required — and it’s required to pass smog inspections from then on. It really isn’t worth it to buy a car from a neighboring state, and I doubt many Californians have been doing this “for a couple of decades now.”
December 13th, 2007 at 11:04 amYes… repressed… ok ;) That explains why i keep reading “Brat-wurst” in your posts. My bad. Thanks for your “in put”
December 13th, 2007 at 11:14 amre 69
December 13th, 2007 at 11:16 amhey, you got the pun!!!! There’s a KBR rape thread going now, aren’t you late for your “clinton did it” post there?
Anyone else lamenting the writers’ strike as I am? …
Comment by Marie — December 13, 2007 @ 9:43 am
i caught a news spot about all the new “reality” shows the networks will be running because of the strike… how much money the networks are saving because they are so cheap to produce…
later, on abc, they ran a lengthy “commercial” for all the new “reality” shows coming soon… it was obvious, by the production of just these commercials, that these shows have been in the works for a good while…
i occurred to me that maybe the networks purposefully drove the writers union to this strike just so they could fill up the timeslots with these cheap, unthinking “shows”…
eh?
also, for the record, rachel maddow yesterday nixed any rumors of her getting a show on msnbc… she said there were no such plans…
but, sadly, AAR has decided, most unfortunately, that her sidekick, kent jones, will no longer be part of her show… way too bad…
December 13th, 2007 at 11:17 am.
katy,
I miss The Daily Show and Letterman, but that’s about it. What shows are you missing? I’m sorry about the folks who are out of work though. Being on strike is tough. You may well be right about the networks and the reality shows.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:21 am“What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.”
Democrats Bend to Bush Demands
CQ TODAY
By David Clarke and Liriel Higa
Dec. 12, 2007 – 10:16 p.m.
Democrats are moving ahead with a year-end spending bill that adheres roughly to the president’s funding level in an effort to finish the government’s annual spending work by the end of the month.
The strategy will require the Democratic majority to largely capitulate to the president’s demands on discretionary spending because Democrats have been unable to muster enough GOP support in Congress to challenge veto threats.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:22 am67
If I am to stick with the idea that Clinton had no bearing on the events of today, than neither did Bush 41, Reagan, or Carter. They all played roles for better or for worse.
Your very own House majority leader “Grandma Mimi” was present at a virtual tour of CIA detention centers and took no issue with it.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/challenges.php?id=1385874
December 13th, 2007 at 11:24 amComment by Exley — December 13, 2007 @ 11:22 am
Indeed. More proof that the Democrats are going to require a larger margin in both Houses if anything is going to be accomplished in the future. Of course, at the point we should also have a Democratic president so some real progress can be made. Thanks for pointing this out, Exley. I had no idea you were so supportive of the Democrats.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:26 amGummitch,
You should try and get a job in public relations. Your effort to spin an article that reports the Democrats “largely capitulated to the president’s demands on discretionary spending” as good news for your side was impressive….
It was not persuasive, but it was a fine effort.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:30 am“Your very own House majority leader “Grandma Mimi†was present at a virtual tour of CIA detention centers and took no issue with it.
Jonser”
If Pelosi approved of torture she should be held to the same standard as your buddy bush. This is just a variation of “clinton did it”, can’t you think any deeper than that?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:32 amThe Hill briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html
December 13th, 2007 at 11:32 amComment by Joneser — December 13, 2007 @ 11:24 am
Your constant use of relativism in your arguments has gotten old. Not that it was ever fresh and original to begin with.
Instead of attempting to fill the room with shiny distracting objects, do you have an opinion on how the current president is running things? Support? Defense? Criticism? Can you state an opinion on current events without considering past presidents?
December 13th, 2007 at 11:40 amI miss The Daily Show and Letterman, but that’s about it. What shows are you missing? I’m sorry about the folks who are out of work though. Being on strike is tough. You may well be right about the networks and the reality shows.
Comment by Bobwurst — December 13, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Biggest losses to me are Daily Show and Colbert Report. I will also be missing Boston Legal and Grey’s Anatomy now that they have run out of new shows. I really don’t watch a whole lot of television.
I hope for the sake of the writers that the strike ends soon and they get most of the terms they want. But I suspect the strike is affecting them far more than it’s affecting me.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:44 amJoneser, your arugment exposes the basic flaw in modern conservatism: You think your side is right because it’s your side, so you offer examples of the other side doing what your side is accused of doing in an effort to show that the other side thinks it right as well. That is what “clinton did it” means at its core.
But, if you’ll think to Johnson’s presidency. He was chased out of office by the dirty hippie wing of the democratic party because of his warmongering. We didn’t pretend it was ok becuse he was one of us. You on the other hand, defend every terrible, unamerican, inhuman, unchristain thing bush does because you voted for him. I don’t expect you to understand this, but I wanted to put it out there.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:45 amComment by missmolly — December 13, 2007 @ 11:40 am
Missmolly,
As you know, I have commented many a time to the discourse of current events. Hence why i posted the Washington Post article. In addition you know I have engaged your comments or opinion with my own as well, and we have done so civil. I have not dismissed your comments with cliche lines, fallic lexicon, or name calling. My “constant use to relativism” is simple where were these same people complaining before about certain actions they let pass cause the person was on their team. Everyone likes to forget history if it doesn’t fit their “now”
December 13th, 2007 at 11:50 amYou should try and get a job in public relations. Your effort to spin an article that reports the Democrats “largely capitulated to the president’s demands on discretionary spending†as good news for your side was impressive….
It was not persuasive, but it was a fine effort.
Comment by Exley — December 13, 2007 @ 11:30 am
You should take some remedial reading classes. I didn’t suggest it was good news, I explained (I’m trying again) that this is clear evidence that the Democrats need a working majority, not this slim lead.
Maybe you could use your finger to trace the words on the screen or something . . .
December 13th, 2007 at 11:57 am#74 What does “virtual” mean? a simulated war game with computerized figures, or did they all watch while a real islamist terrorist was drowned accidentally in the process. Oops!! According to your url, the observers wanted to pile on even more; the virtual show must not have been realistic enough. In your perfect world an accidental death just couldn’t happen eh? Not in Morroco or Libya or Syria or other nice Bush allies like that. Why do neocons always think that they are really getting actionable intelligence out of waterboarding? So, lets say they give false info, its found to be false, so what does the CIA do then, move up to slicing off fingers, electrodes to the balls, etc???
December 13th, 2007 at 11:59 amWow, Bob
I am impressed. No name calling, or fallic refrences. (clap)
Modern conservatism? I don’t have this idea of “my side” that you adhere to. I have certain principals that I believe are right or just and act accordingly. Hell, I voted for Clinton towards his second term (too young before) and for the most part I had conservative ideas as much as you can possibly have in college. I don’t spend my days referencing back to Clinton, but being that he is “technically” running for president again, it could pose relevance ;)
December 13th, 2007 at 11:59 amI hope for the sake of the writers that the strike ends soon and they get most of the terms they want. But I suspect the strike is affecting them far more than it’s affecting me.
Comment by missmolly — December 13, 2007 @ 11:44 am
(Skillfully avoiding any reference to your taste in television shows, I skip the preceding paragraph.) I’ll be catching up on my Netflix DVD queue, which is very long. It doesn’t look good for the Guild, frankly. I don’t think is one they’re going to win.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:01 pmJonser, you make no sense what so ever. Bill is not running for anything. period. your referencing him in this thread has nothing to do with hillary’s run for president and you know it. It has to do with muddying the disucssion about your boy bush and his torture fetish. You’ve proven yourself to be dishonest and not worth the attempt to engage in serious discussion.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:05 pmEverybody is stiffing our veterans–their charities, the VA, the administration, the President and Congress. It’s time we took care of ALL our veterans with service-related disabilities and medical problems in a timely and full-service fashion. This is a national disgrace–do we have no shame left?
December 13th, 2007 at 12:05 pmComment by HighPlainsJoker — December 13, 2007 @ 11:59 am
ABSOLUTELY… Neocons rock! (rock star fingers flashing). Who should be in the movie? Soundtrack? Oh we already have about 4 or 5 out.
But let me think on that one for a minute. Why haven’t they shown us doing that in the movies yet? I mean in current circumstance. I mean all these current movies either have soldiers as victims or victimizers. Yet we don’t have any torture-esque stuff going on against the terrorists.
Who’d play Pelosi? Glen Close? yeah just die her hair. Well no she is already in one.
Pshh!
December 13th, 2007 at 12:07 pm88
I agree. I think actually Combat Vets should be tax exempt, too! (no sarcasm here particularly from my last post )
December 13th, 2007 at 12:09 pm87
Brat.. it was a joke. Hence the use of quotes “technically”… (man I should have put something fallic in there)
next time
December 13th, 2007 at 12:10 pm87
At least I know you can be a jerk and honest and stay worthy of a discussion. I apologize for offending you.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:20 pmI have not dismissed your comments with cliche lines, fallic lexicon, or name calling. My “constant use to relativism†is simple where were these same people complaining before about certain actions they let pass cause the person was on their team. Everyone likes to forget history if it doesn’t fit their “nowâ€
Comment by Joneser — December 13, 2007 @ 11:50 am
I certainly agree that you don’t insult me in your posts, and I hope you’re not implying that I use those tactics in mine. I try not to use cliche lines in my arguments, but sometimes I do if I feel they’re appropriate. Not sure what you mean by “fallic” lexicon — my dictionary doesn’t have that word in it. If you mean “phallic”, I prefer not to use those terms unless I’m discussing reproductive or urinary systems. And I don’t like to resort to name-calling, as I feel it isn’t constructive (although I admit I’ve fallen to that temptation a couple of times — I’m not perfect).
That aside, you’ve made your point. However, I’d like to point out a few things:
1) Just because Clinton did something doesn’t mean that we always approved of it. An unethical, illegal, or immoral action is wrong no matter who does it. We didn’t scream for Clinton to “ban” waterboarding because it wasn’t an issue. The very few of us who even thought about waterboarding during his term assumed it was illegal already. Now if people had been getting waterboarded during this time, you can bet we’d have been screaming about it.
2) Just because Pelosi is being quiet on the issue doesn’t make it right. In case you haven’t noticed, a large number of us are critical of Nancy for a number of reasons. We don’t give her a free pass just because she happens to be “on our team.”
3) When Bush was preparing to enter the White House to begin his first term, there was a great deal of talk from his camp about restoring character, dignity, honor, etc. etc. to the White House. In other words, the talk was that they WEREN’T going to do things that Clinton did. Therefore, it seems to be a wee bit hypocritical to use that as a defense when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. After all, wasn’t Clinton an immoral reprobate not worthy of emulation? And wasn’t Bush going to reach a higher moral standard?
December 13th, 2007 at 12:21 pmComment by Bobwurst @ 11:21 am -
didn’t mean to ignore you… i can’t be around here much, but wanted to answer your question…
there are several shows i like to watch… sitcoms, mostly… but i have to admit a particular fondness for the grey’s anatomy… not sure how another favorite – boston legal – has kept up, doesn’t seem to be in reruns yet (but i did miss some early shows)… cbs’ mondays alway make me laugh, at least chuckle… much needed…
but i AVOID the “reality shows” like the plague they are… even ‘dancing with the faded stars’ – and i LOVE to watch dancing…
but the only shows i truly MISS are the DAILY SHOW & COLBERT…
December 13th, 2007 at 12:33 pmahh david… so sorry… but take heart – even your reruns are great, also…
…
just heard on ed…
KUCINICH not in today’s “debates” ???!!!!!
W T F !!!???
December 13th, 2007 at 12:34 pmre 91 and 92,
You didn’t offend me, I have to care what you think before you can say anything that offends me. You just proved to me that it’s a waste of time to take you seriously.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:41 pmKaty,
Did ed say why Kucinich isn’t going to be there?
December 13th, 2007 at 12:42 pmsomething about the desmoines register’s rules -
he doesn’t rent office space in iowa…
what the hell was keyes doing in the GOOP fest yesterday??
that really sucks… big time…
December 13th, 2007 at 12:49 pmHey Joneser, its simple:
Waterboarding is illegal. Period.
The US has prosecuted foreigners and americans alike for waterboarding.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870
Why are you bringing Bill into the conversation? It was illegal then as it is now. Why are you insisting “it was on the books”? It was never “on the books” as being legal! It was always illegal.
Please respond simply to this post so we can put this dialogue to rest.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:53 pmBTW – in response to missmolly, I dont think Pelosi, Reid or most of the Dems are “on our team”.
The Dem leadership has failed its mandate and the majority of the American people and it continues through today.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
December 13th, 2007 at 12:57 pmhttp://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=kucinich%2C+iowa+debate&btnG=Search+News
kucinich claims he’s been shut out of iowa’s process for months…
they just don’t want to hear his message…
…
i gotta get some serious house-guest preparation going…
just the grown kids, a.k.a “space invaders” (h/t zooey), but still need
to get the place “home-like”… the things we moms will do…
g’day all…
December 13th, 2007 at 12:58 pmThanks for the link katy, merry christmas, super saturnalia, happy channakuah, and/or secular-progressive partyday!
December 13th, 2007 at 1:10 pm“You’re wasting your time, Bob. It is not in the nature of “progressives†to have a “happy†anything.
Comment by cold_hard_left”
Right. I guess you’ve never read “A Christmas Carol”. The good hearted folks, who gave to the poor were the happy ones. (they were the progressives). It was Scrooge, (the capitalist pig who would be a neocon today) who was miserable. It was only when he realized the error of his ways, and gave wholeheartedly to Bob Crachet and his impoverished but happy family that Scrooge found true happiness.
Is cold_hard_left short for I’m cold and hard because I’m left out?
December 13th, 2007 at 1:35 pmCHL is busy looking for more Global Warming denier studies funded by Big Oil. After all, real evidence can only be found by studied paid for by polluters. That’s where the real truth comes out.
December 13th, 2007 at 1:49 pmbigfoot is talking to himself again. why aren’t you out ransaking the foreclosed houses in your neighborhood?
December 13th, 2007 at 5:25 pm