Bush Claims ‘We Have Fabulous Health Care’ Compared To ‘Other Systems Around The World’
Bush Claims ‘We Have Fabulous Health Care’ Compared To ‘Other Systems Around The World’
During a Q & A following his speech on the economy in Fredericksburg, VA today, President Bush declared that “we have fabulous health care in America“:
I’m going to tell you something — we have fabulous health care in America, just so you know. I think it’s very important — before people start griping about the health care system here — and of course there’s always grounds for complaint — just to compare it with other systems around the world.
Bush may not be aware, but U.S. health care has already been systematically compared to other systems around the world. In many cases, the results are not good for Americans.
In 2002, the U.S. spent more on health care per person than other industrial countries like Britain, Canada, France, and Germany. But unlike those countries, which have universal health care systems, there are roughly 47 million Americans who lack health coverage.
In 2000, the World Health Organization (WHO) did a comparative assessment of the health systems of 191 countries. The WHO found that in terms of the five measured performance indicators, the U.S. ranked 37th:
The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of gross domestic product (GDP) on health services, ranks 18th . Several small countries — San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.
In his recent documentary, SiCKO, Michael Moore illustrated clearly how U.S. health care ranked far behind much of the industrial world. Watch a clip:
As Paul Krugman has noted, American health care “at its best is the best in the world,” but for millions of Americans “it’s all too easy to fall through the cracks in our system.”
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Sure, he and the Congress have free, excellent health care.
It’s just millions of Americans that are struggling to pay exhorbitant health care costs and insurance.
Many small and medium size business can’t afford to offer health care to their employees and stay solvent.
Good job, ya Dumbya!
December 17th, 2007 at 5:56 pmProgressive party platform nomination.
Plank #1
December 17th, 2007 at 5:58 pmUniversal Health Care. For All. Period.
One Payer System.
Of course it is ‘fabulous…’
Probably he never had to worry about a health bill in his life…
December 17th, 2007 at 6:00 pmBut that’s not the case with the rest of the country.
He’s right.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:01 pmWhat a delusional moron he is.
Dayum, I’m embarrassed!!
December 17th, 2007 at 6:02 pmRight, Napier. We’re ahead of Slovenia AND Cuba!
December 17th, 2007 at 6:05 pmFunny how Bush still thinks he can wing it ( facts don’t matter ) but most people see we have clueless empty suit in the WH.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:06 pmFrance spends less than half of what we do per capita on healthcare and yet everyone gets it and nobody complains.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:07 pmWE’RE NUMBER 37!!
WE’RE NUMBER 37!!
WE’RE NUMBER 37!!
YAY!!
December 17th, 2007 at 6:07 pmThe average wait for all forms of healthcare in France is less than one day. In spite of the fact that the French smoke like fiends and drink all the time, they have a longer average lifespan than Americans.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:08 pmherr dubyah has free health care for life….of course it’s good from his perspective.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:10 pmAnd I’m sure that George HW Bush would agree that the US has the world’s best grocery scanning technology.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:10 pmThink we’re missing Shrub’s point. As Americans we have the **BEST** of everything. Best Healthcare. Best Education. Best Climate. Best Purple Mountains majesties, above the fruited plains.
Cause I’m BORN IN THE U S A-A-AE. I’M BORN IN THE U S A-A-A-A-E.
Any attempt to distort the facts with statistics is to attack our national sense of being and puts us in harm’s way of terrorists.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:11 pmI’m pretty sure the health care in the Ivory Tower is excellent.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:13 pmWhat you are talking about France again…you can’t do that. I mean what next you going to talk about how France is almost energy self-sufficient and leads the world in Nuke power!? Maybe follow-up about how all our Nuke engineers are retired or dead so we are going to buy reactors from them. Next you go on and on about these wine drinking frog eaters having the cleanest skies in Western Europe and other kinds of bad things. It’s all a load of propaganda and talking points. France has always hated America and just sucks at every thing they do. That statue of liberty thing and the whole revolution thing, just a decoy from these cheese eating surrender monkeys to get in good with us. Don’t buy it…Freedom Fries forever!
December 17th, 2007 at 6:14 pmHey Napier, you said “he’s right.” Do you expect people to simply accept that or are you going to provide something to back up your words, you know, like an “argument” or something? You see, we don’t worship Bush as a cult leader or a demigod, so we’re going to need a little more than “he’s right.”
December 17th, 2007 at 6:14 pmI don’t believe those rankings, when the wealthy and powerful around the world always come to America to deal with serious illnesses. Those health care programs in other countries might be great if your poor, but not if you have a serious and complex health problem that can only be treated in the US.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:15 pmWhat Napster meant is that Bush is so far right of reichwing that he makes middle of the road repukes look like Nazis.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:16 pmYou know, Hitchens, it’s all very well to point out that France uses nuclear power very well, but if you expect our country to use it as well, I think we’d also need to regulate capitalism the way they do in France. If you’d like American corporations to be subject to the same kinds of regulations and oversite that French corporations are, then nuclear power might make sense. But, as long as American corporations have free reign to cut costs every which way they can even if they endanger the public, I’m not on board.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:17 pmWhat Hendler is trying to say is, that if you are rich and powerful, this is a great place to come for health care.
So what? Isn’t the measure of a successful health care system the quality it provides to the PEOPLE of this country?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:18 pmJackass.
“Take Uganda, for instance…..”
December 17th, 2007 at 6:18 pmI don’t believe those rankings, when the wealthy and powerful around the world always come to America to deal with serious illnesses. Those health care programs in other countries might be great if your poor, but not if you have a serious and complex health problem that can only be treated in the US.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 17, 2007 @ 6:15 pm
Provide facts and data to the contrary, not opinion and fantasy.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:18 pmHendler: “I don’t believe those rankings, when the wealthy and powerful around the world always come to America to deal with serious illnesses.”
Hendler, I’m so tired of that phony argument. Nobody can argue that the wealthy don’t get good healthcare in America. But when you’re talking about a healthcare SYSTEM, you have to be talking about everyone in the society, not just the wealthy.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:20 pmhey william. that dawg ya got there? it ain’t a-huntin’ fer ya.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:20 pmWhat you folks don’t realize is that American health facilities are really quite good. They’re just priced beyond the means of most Americans. But GWB & his cronies aren’t most Americans. So it’s affordable to them. So when he says that the U.S. has great healthcare he’s right. The fact that it’s not accessible to millions of Americans isn’t something he’s concerned about. This fits with what Jason M. Hendler is saying too. Wealthy people from all over the world come to the states to get cured. Poor people do without.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:21 pmI APOLOGIZE TO GO OFF TOPIC HERE:
December 17th, 2007 at 6:21 pmChris Dodd on FISA Debate a few minutes ago was fantastic!
Hatch is trying to fear monger at present.
Reason: John Edwards and his pack of trial lawyers. Comment by Billy Hill — December 17, 2007 @ 6:19 pm
ROFL!! In other words, it’s LIBRUL’S FAULT!!!! LOL…reich-wingers are pricelesss.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:22 pmJohn Edwards and his pack of trial lawyers
Gawd, what a great name for a garage band!
December 17th, 2007 at 6:22 pmHillbilly: “Reason: John Edwards and his pack of trial lawyers.”
I know from past posts that you’re not the kind of person who responds to facts, but here goes anyway: according to the insurance industry’s OWN STATISTICS, malpractice payouts represent less than 3% of their costs. This is a phony argument that simple-minded people have bought into hook, line and sinker. Go ahead, though, keep being a tool.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:22 pmCall you senator now if you want retroactive immunity for telecoms removed from FISA Extension.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:24 pmI agree with CHL, I mean, Jason Manhandler when he says that, if you’re wealthy and powerful the US is the place to come to get treated. No arguments there.
Unfortunately, most of the US is NOT the kind of wealthy and powerful that gets them the best healthcare. Most of the US is like the Frost family, who the wingnuts savaged mercilessly simply because they had the temerity to have children before they lost their employer-provided healthcare.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:25 pmHillbilly: “The money spent on health care goes to 3 entity’s …. the insurance company’s, trial lawyers, and health care providers.”
If you believe that, you should be a proponent of single payer healthcare, where the government takes tax money and pays providers directly cutting out the profit-driven middlemen. Medicare, a single-payer plan, runs with less than a 3% overhead.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:25 pmIt’s Monday, first day of a new week, and Bush goes out and embarrasses us all over again.
My God, that man is pathetic.
HE has excellent healthcare, many Americans have excellent healthcare, but 47,000,000 Americans have NO health coverage so their options for health care are limited. Bush has the audacity to make the comment he made today. Anyone surprised?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:25 pmTwo major domestic concerns on which Bush has been consistently, instructively silent: skyrocketing health care costs and oil prices. It’s no great leap to identify his paymasters from that alone.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:26 pmBush is:
1) A c0ck s^cking liar!
2) Stupid beyond belief
3) A Facist enemy of the state
What say yee?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:26 pmBilly, Billy, Billy… don’t drink and blog. Please.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:27 pmHillbilly, I’m glad you’re getting such a big kick out of that link of yours, but what does that have to do with insurance company overhead or the healthcare system?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:27 pmAbout 15 years ago I had a British girl friend who crashed into a tree while sking in Aspen. Messed up her knee pretty bad. The doctor told her she needed surgery ASAP so she flew back to the UK where her medical care was “free”. They put her on a waiting list beacuse surgery on the knee isn’t considered life threatening…..She waited for almost a year before they performed the opperation and now she walks with a pemanent limp.
Our system is far from perfect but I certainly prefer the free-market to any socialized system.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:27 pmComment by MapleStreet — December 17, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
Best post.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:27 pmOr, perhaps I should say… Billy, don’t huff and blog. Please.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:27 pmWell, at least we agree that the US has the best health care money can buy.
Cha-ching!
December 17th, 2007 at 6:28 pmHillbilly: “Say Jack…..um just what is the dollar amount of that 3% big guy?”
God, it’s so pathetic when these mental midgits THINK they’ve made a point.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:28 pmOur system is far from perfect but I certainly prefer the free-market to any socialized system.
Comment by Charles James Napier
Free-market? Oh, you mean a couple of multinationals exchanging goods.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:29 pmYeah, real free…Try competing against Wal-Mart.
#37, bloody dix,
Wow, never seen you so profane. If you need, go take a nap.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:29 pmI don’t believe those rankings, when the wealthy and powerful around the world always come to America to deal with serious illnesses.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
See how the right side parses things? Rather than speak of a health care system - which should benefit the entire US population, Jason talks about the care ‘wealthy’ people get when the come to the US.
Since we have about 37 MILLION citizens who have NO health care, Jason’s words are a distraction at best.
To me it is the height of arrogance that our employees receive better health care than we do. Sometimes I wonder just how dim witted the populace has become. If the citizenry had any self respect, there would be marching in the streets to get at least as good a program as their congresscritters, W and shooter have.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:29 pmCha-ching!
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 17, 2007 @ 6:28 pm
jas, how’s your computer’s health?
a little slow… eh?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:31 pmBetter than Slovenia but worse than Cuba is supposed to be something to brag about? WTF is this eejit saying here?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:32 pmHe also said today that the economy is “fine”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20071217/bush/
Basically, like Bill Kristol, John Bolton and all the other folks who spout how successful their policies have been - they’re absolutely never right. I think that’s called lying… if not it’s just plain psychotic.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:32 pmI’m sure it is fabulous health care, compared to, say, Darfur, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Chad, South Africa, North Korea………….. shall I go on?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:33 pmAbout 15 years ago I had a British girl friend who crashed into a tree while sking in Aspen. Messed up her knee pretty bad. The doctor told her she needed surgery ASAP so she flew back to the UK where her medical care was “freeâ€. They put her on a waiting list beacuse surgery on the knee isn’t considered life threatening…..She waited for almost a year before they performed the opperation and now she walks with a pemanent limp.
Our system is far from perfect but I certainly prefer the free-market to any socialized system.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 6:27 pm
That sounds like complete bullshit to me! Most doctors all around this great big planet don’t let this kind of sh|t happen even in the worst of countries!! You know, like Cuba, where some of our heros from 9/11 received FREE care!!
Got proof?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:33 pmOur system is far from perfect but I certainly prefer the free-market to any socialized system.
Comment by Charles James Napier
The naive right side! They are so right vs wrong, left vs right, up vs. down. Just a quick idea for you to consider: why couldn’t we have a system which uses the best parts of both arrangements - rather than one over the other? Oh yeah, I forgot. Your side doesn’t do nuance.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:34 pmI don’t believe those rankings, when the wealthy and powerful around the world always come to America to deal with serious illnesses.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Yeah, I think I would be so proud if Brunei’s Sultan has the best healthcare in the US meanwhile poor kids and elders are taken out of hospitals.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:35 pmdoes Bush and his handlers lay in bed at night thinking up lies and which lies would be the most provocative to the public?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:36 pmIs this another sociopath hurtful statement to the public as we know too many are tortured by the fact they and their loved ones can not afford or have access to health care?
if you go to the hospital to have a colonoscopy and you get a vasectomy where do you go to get even?
Comment by Billy Hill — December 17, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
Sorry that your rural doctor has chicken feet up on the wall instead of a diploma, William Hill.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:37 pm#37, bloody dix,
Wow, never seen you so profane. If you need, go take a nap.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 17, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
As soon as you stop being a pan-racist a$$hole…Do I need to point to your links where you claim BLACK Africans can rule Africa and it will take light skin Africans to do so??
Do your want me to post your RACIST SH|T links again a$$HOLE??
December 17th, 2007 at 6:38 pmjust last week my doctor took a hit of meth then checked my colon with his kaleidescope and told me I was just fine.
Sorry that your rural doctor has chicken feet up on the wall instead of a diploma, William Hill.
The comedy stylings of your resident redneck, William Hill.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:39 pmjust last week my doctor took a hit of meth then checked my colon with his kaleidescope and told me I was just fine.
Not to mention that was the week’s highlight for our resident redneck.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:40 pmPraise BUSH that we’re ahead of … Slovenia?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:42 pmOur system is far from perfect but I certainly prefer the free-market to any socialized system.
Comment by Charles James Napier
Are you an acquaintance of the singularly obnoxious poster we used to know by the name of Mr. Pee?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:42 pmHe also used to pick out screen names from the dim halls of past christianists.
‘Course, he wouldn’t be old enough to have had an English girlfriend “about 15 years ago”, unless, of course, it was really his nanny, and the Aspen of your memory was the backseat of a now discontinued economy car, a Dodge, I believe……
does Bush and his handlers lay in bed at night thinking up lies and which lies would be the most provocative to the public?
Comment by had enough
Yes, they do. And we pay for it. Every lawyer working overtime to shred the Constitution - we paid for. Every legal opinion allowing spying on US citizens - we paid for. Every unlawful shredding episode - we paid for. Every lie spoken by Bush to the world - we paid for. Every campaign stop (er, presidential visit) - we paid for. Every torture bushies inflict on innocent victims - we paid for. Every visit for Cheney for his pacemaker - we paid for.
Do you see what I mean? It’s bad enough that these things are happening under our noses - but it doesn’t stop there because we also PAY for it all.
It reminds me when the Chinese would arrest and execute a person for some flimsy reason - and they bill the cost of the bullet to the victims family.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:43 pmHillbilly: “Single payer sounds fine Jacko but if you go to the hospital to have a colonoscopy and you get a vasectomy where do you go to get even?”
OK, so on the one hand, you complain that malpractice payouts are a problem because of lawyers, but at the same time you fear single-payer because you don’t think you could get a malpractice payout. Yikes, you’re all across the board, man.
If your fear were well-grounded, then we would expect to see greater dissatisfaction with the French, British and Canadian systems among their population, but we don’t. Does that make any sense to you?
And, of course, Napier resorts to the tired old corporatist method of using anecdotal evidence to criticize a system that, on a statistical basis, is superior to ours. Sorry, Napier, but I wouldn’t believe your hack anecdotal evidence even if you weren’t an idiotic a-hole.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:44 pm56 - SratRat - Righty logic dictates there must be, at most, 2 alternatives in any situation; theirs, and the one they’ve already distorted beyond recognition to make it unattractive to anyone other than those they have pre-disqualified from having a say in the matter.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:44 pmJackAss Moron Hitler,
You’ve seen much more profane from me and you might just want shut your stupid RACIST ASS completly up!!!
Do your neighbors know you’re a racist a$$hole?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:45 pmOur system is far from perfect but I certainly prefer the free-market to any socialized system.
Comment by Charles James Napier
December 17th, 2007 at 6:48 pmWhy is it NO other industrialized country, all of which has accessible health care - except ours of course, would not trade their system and also laugh at US for ours? We look like such fools to the rest of the world.
This is where the debate and the conservative bait and switch comes into play. Yes, the United States has some of the very best hospitals and doctors in the world. Yes, the United States has developed some of the best health care innovations in the world. Given the size of our country, it would not be unusual to see us develop world class expertise in some areas. However, there are European countries that also have developed their own areas of expertise and draw US citizens to their hospitals.
Here, however, is where the bait and switch takes place. We are not judging who has produced the best doctor, the best hospital, the most advanced drugs or medical equipment. The United States probably comes out close to the top on these measures. However, this is not the measure of the quality of health care within a country. A systemic evaluation of a health care system must include the quality of care to the society as a whole, its relative cost to that society and how well the country distributes that health care to its citizens.
Too many voters are being sold a bill of goods. We pay far more per capita than other countries, have lower quality care - in terms of results, and fail to cover a significant number. It does not matter that your country may have the most famous heart surgeon in the world if far more of your citizens die of easily treatable diseases because they cannot afford adequate care. It does not matter that you have more MRI machines if going to the hospital means bankruptcy and the loss of health insurance coverage in the future.
When will conservative voters ever learn.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:50 pmYeah, our local ER is really fabulous.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:52 pmThat sounds like complete bullshit to me!
Comment by dixie blood
————————————————
The story is true.
Of course I don’t have proof, it’s an anecdotal story.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:52 pmReason: John Edwards and his pack of trial lawyers. The money spent on health care goes to 3 entity’s …. the insurance company’s, trial lawyers, and health care providers. As a Democrat I can’t wait till we all get Hillary care.
Comment by Billy Hill — December 17, 2007 @ 6:19 pm
Dumbass you don’t pay the trial loyers and the insurance companies. You pay the insurance companies or the trial attorneys. Their insurance covers the attorneys. And malpractice attorneys don’t even take a case, even if the doctor was negligent, unless there was an almost 100 percent chance the patient would have survived if the doctor hadn’t messed up. It take about $40,000 to wage a successful malpractice case and since attorneys don’t get paid unless they win they don’t take iffy cases. Get a clue.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:54 pmBush’s Holy Trinity: Big Pharma, Big Insurance, Big Oil - Need I say more?
December 17th, 2007 at 6:57 pmThe rich people of the world, like Bush, can make unsubstantiated claims about American Health care, but that’s because they can’t see the rest of us from high in their ivory towers.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:57 pmTHEY have good health care, so they have no interest in learning how the rest os us struggle.
She waited for almost a year before they performed the opperation and now she walks with a pemanent limp.
Our system is far from perfect but I certainly prefer the free-market to any socialized system.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 6:27 pm
I’ve heard at least 5 trolls repeat this limping girlfriend load of crap. Could you losers please make up some new bullshit.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:58 pmShayne,
What can I say?…The story is true.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:00 pmOf course I don’t have proof, I’m a wingnut.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
There. That’s more honest.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:00 pmOf course I don’t have proof, it’s an anecdotal story.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
You had a girlfriend? **snort**
December 17th, 2007 at 7:00 pmSingle payer sounds fine Jacko but if you go to the hospital to have a colonoscopy and you get a vasectomy where do you go to get even?
Comment by Billy Hill — December 17, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
Well since you people want to get rid of malpractice attorneys because you believe no doctor will ever make a mistake on anybody you love, you will have no recourse anywhere. Where do you go to get even with them now without those trial attorney’s you so depise.?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:01 pmBush never lets facts get in the way of his beliefs.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:01 pmYou had a girlfriend? **snort**
Comment by Zooey
————————————
Why yes, and now I have a wife as well.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:02 pmI wonder if JMHendler has ever had to find a specialist?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:02 pmHow long did he wait?
Did his insurance company tell him it wasn’t covered?
Health care is always available to the wealthy - that’s not the issue here. A country is judged on how well it takes care of its elderly, its children, its poor and its sick — the USofA does poorly by all standards.
Earth to W, Earth to W: 47,000,000 Americans have no healthcare whatsoever. Absolutely nothing cannot be “fabulous” simply due to the definitions of “nothing” and “fabulous”.
Since we are 37th, what do you call those 36 SOCIALIZED systems that are above us? Better than fabulous?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:03 pmWhy yes, and now I have a wife as well.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 7:02 pm
A wife AND a girlfriend???? If you are a Democrat, you could be impeached. If Republican, you could be a leading candidate for president!
December 17th, 2007 at 7:06 pmWhat can I say?…The story is true.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 7:00 pm
Right now, as of last week, medicare doesn’t do MRI’s or ctscans withouth them being pre approved and that takes about a week. Plenty of time for your elderly mother to die before she gets it. Idiot.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:06 pmBernie Ward is probably one of the most outspoken for universal health care. Also as his wife is a pediatrician he shares the concerns of how the physicians are also getting screwed by out for profit system.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:07 pmDec. 6, the feds shut him up over journalistic errors made in 2004. It is suspect they go after him now…. and he may go to prison.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/33/justice-for-bernie-wa
Those ritzy doctors that care for the wealthy of the world won’t even see you if your insurance is an HMO instead of a PPO. Forget being on Medicare. And half of them want you to pay upfront and collect from your insurance later. If you have enough money for all that then quality of healthcare isn’t an issue anywhere.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:09 pm72 - That sounds like complete bullshit to me!
Comment by dixie blood
————————————————
The story is true.
Of course I don’t have proof, it’s an anecdotal story.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
In response to this, I’ve a German friend who flies back to Germany from NYC just to see the doctor for check ups and especially when he needs anything serious done. I also know of my own experience in the U.S. medical system where I’ve had EKG records lost, been diagnosed with heart troubles when it was actually stomach troubles, spent two weeks in the hospital with unknown pains only to find it was an appendicitis and I’ve many friends who are nurses and doctors who could fill up a book with malpractice made in U.S. hospitals.
All I’m saying is anecdotes don’t mean anything next to facts. You should try understanding the difference some time.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:10 pmThose who blame trial lawyers, and malpractice awards are buying the spin hook, line and sinker.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:10 pmINSURANCE COMPANIES ARE TO BLAME for increased costs.
Lawyers who go after corporations or doctors for neglect, are only doing what all of us would expect.
The problem lies in having the profit-driven insurance companies being the final arbiter in who gets what treatment and when.
Why yes, and now I have a wife as well.
Comment by Charles James Napier
Wow, a wife and a girlfriend. Good for you!
December 17th, 2007 at 7:11 pmSingle-payer, government-run, universal healthcare would save the US $300 Billion each and every year administratively-alone. And there would not be a single citizen without healthcare. And it would save 18,000 lives every year. Only Kucinich is proposing it. Don’t be fooled by what Clinton, Obama, and Edwards say.
Don’t you ever wonder why the top 36 countries do not have our system?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:12 pmWhy yes, and now I have a wife as well.
Comment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 7:02 pm
I bet she’s just the perfect little Proverbs 31 woman, isn’t she?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:13 pm500 bucks a month I pay for insurance, it is a ripoff and a scam by big insurance companies to make big profits for corporate execs. Healthcare should not be for profit.
Bush/Cheney
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
December 17th, 2007 at 7:14 pmKeith,
Thanks for highlighting that ino - and the fact that our Democratic front-runners are nothing but salespersons for America Inc. just like our republican leadership is.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:14 pmhad enough: “Why is it NO other industrialized country, all of which has accessible health care - except ours of course, would not trade their system and also laugh at US for ours? We look like such fools to the rest of the world.”
The fundamental difference between our system and the rest of the industrialized world is the political power we have given corporations. The political power of corporations accounts for almost every problem we have.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:15 pm*info
December 17th, 2007 at 7:15 pmDon’t you ever wonder why the top 36 countries do not have our system?
Comment by Keith — December 17, 2007 @ 7:12 pm
Yeah Keith, but if we had healthcare for everyone, that would mean some people got something they didn’t work really hard for, and maybe they’ll get something more than the rest of us. You know if people don’t work really hard, they don’t deserve anything.
/snark
December 17th, 2007 at 7:16 pmHey Zooey. What’s Proverbs 31? All women who are not virgins on their wedding night must be stoned to death?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:16 pmAaccording to the Physicians for a National Health Program, “The U.S. spends twice as much as other industrialized nations on health care, $7,129 per capita. Yet our system performs poorly in comparison and still leaves 46 million without health coverage and millions more inadequately covered. This is because private insurance bureaucracy and paperwork consume one-third (31 percent) of every health care dollar. Streamlining payment though a single nonprofit payer would save more than $350 billion per year, enough to provide comprehensive, high-quality coverage for all Americans. I would like to quote from the Connecticut Coalition for Universal Health Care web site, in an effort to separate fact from myths:
Four FACTS about our Health Care System:
* Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990
* Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960
* Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.
* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana
Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation.
For more information:
Physicians for a National Health Program
Call your representative and tell them to support HR-676.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:16 pmIf one were to add up what one spends on annually on deductibles, co-pays and insurance premiums, compare that to what one would pay for single payer, one would likely see that the single payer would be cheaper.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:16 pmFor instance, Medicare operates on a 3% overhead — profit driven insurance companies operate at a 15-20% overhead.
Zooey, W never worked in his life and he’s the most powerful person in the world. Paris Hilton…..oh, never mind.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:17 pmKeith, Edwards is the closest to Kucinich of all the front-runners and his plan involves setting up regional “competition” between insurance-based and single-payer. It’s an ingenious plan because it blunts the standard corporatist argument about “competition” and the result would be a pretty quick changeover to single-payer because insurance-based just couldn’t compete. And, at least Edwards will not take any money from the insurance industry. So, while I prefer Kucinich’s plan, Edward’s plan has more chance of succeeding in the short term.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:18 pmMarie: “…one would likely see that the single payer would be cheaper.”
Single-payer would ABSOLUTELY be cheaper. Again, France, with a single-payer plan spends less than half per capita on healthcare with far better results.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:20 pmHealthcare should not be for profit.
Comment by Buckie Boy
———————————-
No profit, no advances. No profit and the best and brightest will go into other fields.
The problem with you Marxists is you don’t have the first clue about human nature.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:22 pmGit: “Democratic front-runners are nothing but salespersons for America Inc.”
John Edwards is absolutely hated by corporate America. He spent years making them pay for their crimes. He consistently talks about the political power of corporations.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:23 pmHey Zooey. What’s Proverbs 31? All women who are not virgins on their wedding night must be stoned to death?
Comment by Keith — December 17, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
That works. My wife was definitely not a virgin and she was stoned on our wedding night.
What can I say? We were dirty fking hippies.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:24 pmCol. Ripper,
December 17th, 2007 at 7:25 pmYou’re right, of course. Edwards talks of his system COSTING about $90 billion each year—-while single-payer would SAVE $300-350 billion every year. Since Kucinich is at about 3%, he is not realistic. I like the way Edwards beats every Repub in matchups. Versus Huckabee he wins about 65%-35%.
Ret. Col. Jack Ripper @ 106,
Thanks for the correction - sorry for the oversight.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:25 pmNapier: “No profit, no advances. No profit and the best and brightest will go into other fields.
The problem with you Marxists is you don’t have the first clue about human nature.”
Absolute nonsense. Most of the world’s large pharmaceutical advances are happening in Germany where they have a not-for-profit healthcare system. And, please get your terms straight you stupid a-hole. A “Marxist” believes in communism, not single-payer healthcare. A “Marxist” would approve of socialized healthcare where the government owns all the hospitals and the personnell are employees of the communist party which runs the state.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:26 pmKeith,
Proverbs 31 woman.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:26 pmCharles James Napier,
So explain how everyone in the EU is not dead from medical meltdown.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:26 pmComment by Charles James Napier — December 17, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
So, you’re saying the top 36 countries for healthcare are MARXIST??
December 17th, 2007 at 7:26 pmThat works. My wife was definitely not a virgin and she was stoned on our wedding night.
What can I say? We were dirty fking hippies.
Comment by gummitch
Funny stuff, really! Thanks for the grins.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:27 pmAll I’m saying is anecdotes don’t mean anything next to facts. You should try understanding the difference some time.
Comment by Stupid Git — December 17, 2007 @ 7:10 pm
Watch Sicko. I would sign up in a heart beat for the health care systems described in other countries in that film!!!!
If the RePugniScums beleive in the free market and opening international markets then let me buy my health insurance in Europe!!!
December 17th, 2007 at 7:28 pmNapier, I’ll make this simple for you. We have examples of the three systems right under your nose.
The VA is socialized medicine, where the government owns everything and personnel are government employees.
Medicare is a single-payer plan where hospitals and doctors are private entities but get paid by one tax-payer supported source: the government.
What we have is insurance-based where we allow a profit-driven corporate entity to be a middle-man between us and our healthcare.
Get it?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:29 pmWith the aging of the boomers, the medical bills are going to be enormous! Change must occur or one of two things will happen:
1) An incredibly feeble and sick elderly nation.
2) Bankruptcy for the US treasury.
Either choice is worrisome. but change is necessary.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:30 pmSeriosuly, all this shilling for “Free Market” medicine is just amazing. It’s the most obvious case of voting against your interests I think we see in our country. It’s like saying that we should disband the military and let Blackwater run it all because it’d be more efficient and keep us safer, or letting private industry run our education system because it would be a better way… oh wait, these folks actually believe this crap as well.
How do you argue this stuff? Some of you folks on here are much better than I am at explaining the case but I’m starting to think it’s like debating evolutionary biology with Fred Phelps.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:30 pmThe reason John Edwards is my favorite candidate now is that he is the only one with a chance to win who absolutely hammers corporate power. Of course I love Kucinich on the issues, but Edwards could win this thing. That’s why they’re acting as if he doesn’t exist.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:32 pmDixie Blood @ 115,
Actually, I was sort of making the same point you just hollered back at me. I was illustrating that one anecdote saying the UK has a crappy system doesn’t do much to negate all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Just wanted to clear that up.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:33 pmGit: “Seriosuly, all this shilling for “Free Market†medicine is just amazing. It’s the most obvious case of voting against your interests I think we see in our country.”
The power of corporate propaganda propagated by our mainstream media is a wonder to behold.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:34 pmIf Michael Moore says it…we must believe him!!
December 17th, 2007 at 7:34 pmRet. Col. Jack Ripper @ 119,
And I thank you for the reminder. I find myself forgetting about him too and yet when I do read anything on him I think, “Wow, he’s speaking the truth… that’s refreshing.”
December 17th, 2007 at 7:35 pmNapier: “The problem with you Marxists is you don’t have the first clue about human nature.”
This from someone who somehow thinks it’s a good idea to stick a profit-driven corporate industry between himself and his healthcare.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:36 pmWhat we have is insurance-based where we allow a profit-driven corporate entity to be a middle-man between us and our healthcare.
Get it?
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — December 17, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
There was a time in this country when getting rich on the backs of the poor and sick and a war were illegal!!!
WHAT THE PHU(K HAPPENED?
December 17th, 2007 at 7:37 pmPhony Kerry: “If Michael Moore says it…we must believe him!!”
The difference between people like us and people like you is that we don’t work that way. We need evidence. You’re the one defending Bush who simply says “ours is the best” with no evidence to back up his claim.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:38 pmIf Michael Moore says it…we must believe him!!
Comment by John Kerry — December 17, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
I’m glad you agree.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:39 pmNo profit, no advances. No profit and the best and brightest will go into other fields.
Comment by Charles James Napier
Do you always have to be this f’ing stupid, you build in money for advancement, not that you would be smart enough to understand that.
Idiot.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:39 pmIf Michael Moore says it…we must believe him!!
Comment by John Kerry — December 17, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
Close, JK, but try this instead:
If Michael Moore says it, and has facts to back up what he says, it makes sense to believe him.”
Not as catchy as yours, but then I wasn’t going for a sound bite.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:40 pmdixie: “WHAT THE PHU(K HAPPENED?”
The modern libertarian-conservative movement happened, beginning with Ronald Reagan. The American middle class was never stronger than it was in the 70’s. In the 27 years since Reagan took office, we’ve gone from the world’s biggest creditor nation to the world’s biggest debtor nation. This is what happens when you don’t regulate capitalism - it eats itself and destroys societies.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:40 pmJohn Kerry,
December 17th, 2007 at 7:41 pmI was getting great healthcare in London in 1974. I had never heard of Michael Moore in 1974.
Germany has had universal government-run, single-payer healthcare ever since 1883!!! Ah those inefficient Germans.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:43 pmAnd, Keith, that hasn’t stopped the Germans from leading the world in pharmaceutical advances.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:44 pmCould all the “our system is the best” please explain the weird statistics which seem to consistently suggest that many of the socialized systems you fear so yield healthier citizens with greater quality of life and life expectancies, infant mortality rates, and so on. Please clear this up for me so I can become one of the True Believerr too
December 17th, 2007 at 7:46 pmCol. Jack Ripper,
Wanted to say thanks for sharing so much useful info on this discussion (and many others) and doing so in a rational and intelligent way. You’ve got quite a solid mind and a way with words.
Much respect.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:46 pmRighto Colonel. Germany also has 30% of their energy from renewables, today. But that’s a different thread.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:47 pmI’m very encouraged to see what a charged issue this is. My family has been just getting hammered by Blue Cross in the last few years. I’m convinced that they know the end is near for them and they’re just squeezing as much money as they can out of us before they lose their gravy train. Soon, they’ll be forced out of healthcare, but don’t worry about them - they can still do life, fire, home and cars.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:47 pmThanks so much, Git. This issue is very personal for me. My sister has a child with type I diabetes and she’s constantly under the gun. And, my family has just gotten screwed, blued and tatooed by insurance-based health care.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:50 pmWhen I was still working, my Blue Cross of Idaho individual policy cost $500 per month, and I had a $2000 deductible.
Thank goodness my employers paid all of it, but it was getting to where they couldn’t do that anymore.
I have student health now, which is really not great, but it’s better than nothing — which is what I would have otherwise. It costs me $596 a semester.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:54 pmWith Napier we see the usual bait and switch as applied to single payer systems overseas. One can find examples in any system that show a poor performance. One would not conclude that the entire United States health care system is in shambles just because several Los Angeles hospitals dump patients on skid row to avoid the expense of caring for them. No one would judge the entire US market system as a fraud because a family goes into bankruptcy because they could not afford comprehensive insurance and then fell a victim to an accident resulting in horrendous medical expenses.
However, one can make judgments about a system if the majority of bankruptcies in a country comes from medical expenses. One can make a judgment from statistics establishing that a healthcare system results in relative decline in life expectancy vis a vis other systems. One can make a judgment when industries become non competitive because of the cost of employee health benefits.
The Republicans will always respond in vague generalities suc as: we have the best health care system and universal health care systems are a failure without providing a statistical basis for the conclusion. The only facts given are isolated anectdotes that mean nothing in terms of evaluation.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:54 pmGit: “I’m starting to think it’s like debating evolutionary biology with Fred Phelps.”
Amazing, isn’t it. Modern libertarian-conservative ideology is very much like religion. The dogma rests on philosophical principles which cannot be demonstrated in the real world. There has never been an unregulated capitalist system which has worked for any society, but they believe in it anyway.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:55 pmWell he does have fabulous health care. He and pickles and jenna/not jenna and unka dick and all their wealthy friends. Oh and congress too. See he was sorta telling the truth.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:56 pmJMOHR: “The Republicans will always respond in vague generalities suc as: we have the best health care system and universal health care systems are a failure without providing a statistical basis for the conclusion.”
Exactly, and every time they do this, usually on television, the “journalist” will stare off into space and let the assertion go unanswered.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:58 pmComment by Zooey — December 17, 2007 @ 7:54 pm
Sure Zooey but those crazy college kids like you only need free birth control, RU486, and an occasional flu shot. Right? Oh yeah and whatever the proper treatment for alcohol poisoning is.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:59 pmBart: “When facts are presented that discredit their position, they simply refuse to “believe†them.”
I think that’s why the modern dogma/religion of libertarian-conservatism appeals to a certain type of person. John Dean is getting at this in “Conservatives Without a Conscience.”
December 17th, 2007 at 8:02 pmComment by dbadass — December 17, 2007 @ 7:59 pm
but I only use mine for the flu shot and alcohol poisoning — I should get half off!
December 17th, 2007 at 8:03 pmI have no facts to support my belief that the US healthcare system probably has more “small print” that any other country, but I bet I’m right!
December 17th, 2007 at 8:03 pmLike I said before - for them, there are 2 alternatives, theirs and “the bad one”.
Thanks Col., for holding forth with conviction and facts. Same goes to JMohr and Dr. Matt and Keith. I love it that we’re able to turn every thread skirmish into a rout, and stick to the factual and moral high ground in the process. My optimism is outpacing my pessimism like no time in the last decade.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:04 pmAugustine, it only makes sense. As Paul Krugman has pointed out, insurance-based healthcare delivery employs tens of thousands of people for the express purpose of DENYING you your healthcare. No other system has any reason to do that because with a universal plan, you’re spreading the risk across the entire society instead of trying to pick and choose your demographic.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:06 pmCould all the “our system is the best†please explain
Comment by dbadass
He means our system is the best at making the most money for the fewest multinationals and their executives. And that is really all that matters to the US right.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:07 pmWe actually have a good healthcare system in this country. all we have to do is remove the giant blood-gorged tick of a health INSURANCE system from its back and we might have a good thing.
Interesting story, Charles. Here’s the problems with it. 1) a fifteen year old incident is not compelling argument for the current state of anything. 2)your girlfriend was told to have knee surgery immediately. So instead of doing that she flies to another country and goes in and applies for her free health care a few days later. That’s anew definition of ‘ASAP’. 3) She’s wealthy enough to ski in Aspen but not enough to get a busted knee fixed? Wealthy enough to buy a plane ticket at the spur of the moment, Denver to Heathrow, and I assume she left in one or two days after the Doctor told her, right? But that’s still cheaper than knee surgery in the US? 4)There are plenty of private physicians in Britain. Do you mean to tell us that when she found out it would be months that she just sat there and waited , even though her doctor in the states said ‘ASAP’? 5) If you were here boyfriend, didn’t you advise her on any of this? Not even when you drove her from aspen to Denver in your Nissan Sentra, as I assume you did? 6) Who prescribed her pain medication? Who put her leg in a cast or a brace? If she got those from a US doctor, she was already paying for US medical care–but she decided to break it off, and save on the remainder? 7) She was your girlfriend? and she broke up with you and and went back to England for months and months because she wanted to save money on knee surgery? I would be a little indignant.
The force of your anecdote is that, of course, if she had just stayed here and got good ol’ American health care, she wouldn’t have a limp. There’s no guarantee of that. And with the number of really weird decisions she made, it’s by no means certain that socialized medicine is to blame.
btw, I loved you in Russ Meyer’s Supervixens. It’s no wonder you can get british ski-bunny girlfriends at the drop of a hat.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:08 pmtom, I firmly believe that within five years, we will have a universal system which works. They simply can’t hide the fact that the rest of the industrialized world does this better for much longer.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:09 pmLet’s all keep writing and calling and planning then - the healthcare change and several others are all long overdue.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:10 pmNever before has a President and Vice President deserved to be impeached more than these.
Yet our Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, is working behind the scenes with House Democrats, not to build a consensus for impeachment, but to do just the opposite. To keep others from succeeding in their effort to hold this president accountable by means of impeachment.
With the FISA bill looming in the Senate, we have to show the leaders of the House and Senate that this is still our country. Please read the petition to replace Pelosi with a Democratic Representative who will bring impeachment proceedings to the floor.
http://www.petitiononline.com/everyman/petition.html
December 17th, 2007 at 8:10 pmBart: “Pretending to be a Democrat?”
I don’t think he even pretends to be anymore. He just endorsed John McCaine for president today. My hope is that Dems take a supermajority in the Senate, strip him of all his committee assignments, do not allow him to caucus with the Dems and relegate him to obscurity for the rest of his term.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:11 pmbtw, I loved you in Russ Meyer’s Supervixens. It’s no wonder you can get british ski-bunny girlfriends at the drop of a hat.
Comment by pbg — December 17, 2007 @ 8:08 pm
Excellent post. Nothing like completely deflating an anecdote on its merits.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:12 pmwilly, I completely agree that they deserve to be impeached probably more than anyone in history, but at this point, if I had a choice I would rather see Dems take supermajorities in both chambers and the Whitehouse. Bush can then take his rightful position in history as the politician who destroyed the modern conservative movment and the republican party with it. Give me another extended period of progressive liberal policy as we saw after the last disaster of unregulated capitalism. That created the strongest middle class in history that lasted for 3 decades.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:16 pmThe best health care in the world made me wait in the ER for 23 hours with appendix and diviculitis problems.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:18 pmYou fools who spew this best healthcare in the world bs need to spend a night in any ER in this country.
O, and paying 60 for one tylenol is a little ridiculous for the
“best “system
“I” is the new “R” - anyone notice the # of trolls who’ve suddenly declared their “I”-hood?
Must suck to be that ashamed of your party. I’m not always tickled with mine, but I’ve never tried passing myself off as anything other than a Democrat.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:21 pmdietrich, my sister pays $35 for a pack of diabetes test strips for which citizens of Austrailia pay $5. Same strips, same manufacturer - and if the manufacturer wasn’t making money selling them in Australia, they wouldn’t be selling them there.
Hey, thanks to everyone. This has been a great discussion. Have a great night!
December 17th, 2007 at 8:22 pmWith universal health care, do you suppose the Prison Industrial Complex would take a hit? It seems our prison population has soared since Reagan closed the mental health care units. Our population is only 5% of the worlds population, yet we have 25% of the worlds prisoners.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:27 pmIf we bring back mental health care as it once was, maybe we would also have less shootings as we once did.
No profit, no advances. No profit and the best and brightest will go into other fields.
Comment by Charles James Napier
This is idiotic at best. Who says that a universal healthcare system doesn’t pay for investigation, top notch one? Just an example, the initial phases of HIV study:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gallo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luc_Montagnier
Both researchers were tied in the run for the discovery of the HIV virus, they collaborated in equal terms, and finally agreed to share the honors for being the discoverers of the virus.
Robert Gallo is from the USA.
Luc Montagnier is from France.
And, without a doubt, the Pasteur Institute is one of the best research institutes of the world, including the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteur_Institute
BRW, it’s a NONPROFIT PRIVATE INSTITUTE. If this doesn’t makes implode the heads of the Repubbots reading the thread…
Hint, NONPROFIT doesn’t mean that researchers aren’t payed.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:31 pmWe DO have excellent health care here in the United States. We have fine doctors, outstanding hospitals, state of the art equipment, and cutting-edge health care technology.
What we DON’T have is an adequate health care delivery system. Our delivery system favors the rich and the healthy, and it woefully underserves the people just getting by, people with pre-existing conditions, children, and the people who need health care the most. It’s way too costly, with entirely too much money ending up in the pockets of corporate greedheads.
Our system of paying for health care has evolved into a system where employers pay for it. This creates huge holes for people to fall through when they become unemployed, and blatant catch-22s when people become too sick to work. Employers have to pay more and more to insure their employees, and to do this, they have to increase the cost of their goods and services, so we all pay.
Yes, Mr. President — we have excellent health care here in the United States. But for too many Americans, it’s out of reach.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:31 pmAs 18,000 a year die because of lack of health care, not the elderly or disabled as they have medicare, could this be viewed as a form of genocide?
December 17th, 2007 at 8:34 pmPeople need to wake up. People are dying while the giggling moron spews more lies of hope.
When I say that everyone could be covered and $300 billion could be saved each and every year administratively-alone, I mean ADMINISTRATIVELY-ALONE. This does not affect the pay of doctors, nurses, researchers, etc. It just cuts out the totally unnecessary extra layer of bureaucracy and profit: THE INSURANCE COMPANIES.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:40 pmComment by Keith — December 17, 2007 @ 8:40 pm
That’s obscene. How could the average American be against that?
December 17th, 2007 at 8:56 pmZooey, You could start the blame with the mainstream media who will not mention the extreme advantages of single-payer. The media has corporate ties to these insurance companies beyond just a source of income.
December 17th, 2007 a