Dodd: “We Say To President Bush, We Would Never Take ‘Trust Me’ For An Answer”
Dodd: “We Say To President Bush, We Would Never Take ‘Trust Me’ For An Answer”
The Senate today began debate on a FISA bill that would overhaul the rules for electronic surveillance and provide retroactive immunity for telecom companies that participated in the Bush administration’s illegal spying efforts.
Sen. Chris Dodd (D-CT) took to the Senate floor and protested the bill today, arguing that that Congress should not reward the President’s “favored corporations” for betraying “millions of customers’ trust.”
In response to the White House’s insistence that the telecomm’s actions were legal, Dodd explained, “[W]e say to President Bush that a nation of truly free men and women would never take ‘trust me’ for an answer, not even from a perfect president — and certainly not from him”:
If this disastrous war has taught us anything, it is that the Senate must never again stack such a momentous decision on such a weak foundation of fact. The decision we’re asked to make today is not, of course, as immense. But between fact and decision, the disproportion is just as huge.
So I rise in determined opposition to this unprecedented immunity and all that it represents. I have served in this body for more than a quarter-century. I have spoken from this desk hundreds and hundreds of times. I have rarely come to the floor with such anger.
Watch it:
The bill brought to the floor by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) requires courts to “throw out lawsuits alleging that telephone companies broke the law by participating in warrantless surveillance.” Dodd and Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) have proposed an amendment that would strike this retroactive immunity provision “and leave it to the courts to determine whether the telephone companies acted properly and therefore deserve immunity.”
Firedoglake has more on today’s debate.
UPDATE: Feingold’s remarks are here.
UPDATE II: Cloture passes, 76-10.
Transcript:
So here we are–facing a final decision on whether the telecommunications companies will get off the hook for good. The president’s allies are as intent as they ever were on making that happen. They want immunity back in this bill at all costs.
But what they’re truly offering is secrecy in place of openness. Fiat in place of law.
And in place of the forthright argument and judicial deliberation that ought to be this country’s pride, two simple words from our president’s mouth: “Trust me.”
I cannot speak for my colleagues–but I would never take that offer, not even in the best of times, not even from a perfect president. I would never take that offer because our Constitution tells us that the president’s word is subject to the oversight of the Congress and the deliberation of the courts; and because I took an oath to defend the Constitution; and because I stand by my oath.
“Trust me.” It is the offer to hide ourselves in the waiting arms of the rule of men. And in these threatened times, that offer has never seemed more seductive. The rule of law has rarely been so fragile.
“It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger…from abroad.” James Madison, the father of our Constitution, made that prediction more than two centuries ago. With the passage of this bill, his words would be one step closer to coming true. So it has never been more essential that we lend our voices to the law, and speak on its behalf.
On its behalf, we say to President Bush that a nation of truly free men and women would never take “trust me” for an answer, not even from a perfect president — and certainly not from him. […]
If this disastrous war has taught us anything, it is that the Senate must never again stack such a momentous decision on such a weak foundation of fact. The decision we’re asked to make today is not, of course, as immense. But between fact and decision, the disproportion is just as huge.
So I rise in determined opposition to this unprecedented immunity and all that it represents. I have served in this body for more than a quarter-century. I have spoken from this desk hundreds and hundreds of times. I have rarely come to the floor with such anger.
But since I came to Washington, I have seen six presidents sit in the White House–and I have never seen a contempt for the rule of law equal to this. Today I have reached a breaking point. Today my disgust has found its limit.
I don’t expect every one of my colleagues to share that disgust, or that limit. I wish they did–but had that been the case, we would never have come to this point.
Sort Comments By: Top Rated | Date
I called Ken Salazar’s office. Seems his people know noghing about this debate.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:17 pmBush and his criminal administration has no credibility - they are NOT to be trusted. I have come to regard anything said by Bush and his criminal administration as a lie.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:18 pmI hope the FIRST person to be tapped under the new FISA legislation is Mitch McConnell. IF this guy had ANY brains left he would run for the hills becuase he is without doubt one of the biggest jerks I have ever seen!
Maybe, just maybe someone will catch him with a chicken…or a sheep..or a cow…or something…
WHAT a lunatic and butt-boy….
December 17th, 2007 at 12:20 pmcloture vote NOW on cspan2 :/
December 17th, 2007 at 12:21 pmI also believe that the Democrats are going to give Bush and his criminal administration everything that they want. The Dems will try to make a good show of it - they’ll complain and fuss and fume, but in the end, the Dems will roll over and take it up the bvtt.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:21 pmLet this government become so broken that the masses are forced to participate. I’m getting to that point.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:21 pmSo, cspan says the House passed IT’S VERSION of the bill in October(i think).
December 17th, 2007 at 12:23 pmDoes that mean this would still have to go to a conference committee between the House and Senate if this passes?
Why is Dodd not the front-runner? Why is Kucinich not the front-runner? They are clearly the Progressives we are looking for.\\Why?
Because the Dem leadership doesn’t want Progressives in the WH.
The dem leadership needs to be faced with the loss of the next election if they do not get on board, tout de suite.
We have muscle in the form of individual votes - but only if we band together and flex. Otherwise, we get more of the same from our own “representatives”.
It’s time to fight for what we want - not what we are told we want.
I swear to god (as good as an atheist can do), if this immunity goes forward, I’ll vote for freekin’ Ron Paul.
No more cowards.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:24 pmWe will find out how many Republicans-in-Democrat-clothing there are today………
December 17th, 2007 at 12:25 pmIf they can’t or won’t stand up to criminality, they are in no position to lead.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:26 pm“If they can’t or won’t stand up to criminality, they are in no position to lead.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius”
Isn’t that clear already?
December 17th, 2007 at 12:27 pmDitto to Dodd and his gutsy comments on FISA immunity.
Also, Winski #3 is exactly right about pathetic Mitch McConnell. We are working hard to Ditch Mitch in 2008 and we need your help. Support Lt. Col. Andrew Horne — the Democrat who can beat McConnell. Google Andrew Horne for info on his website. Thanks.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:28 pmuh, ron paul’s moral compass has reversed polarity:
December 17th, 2007 at 12:28 pmhttp://www.dailykos.com/ storyonly/ 2007/ 12/ 13/ 131540/ 47/ 78/ 420978
If he wins this one I may just have to vote for him as prez.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:30 pmWell said Dodd!! Keep fighting for America!!
December 17th, 2007 at 12:31 pmIt’s as clear as a bell.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:33 pmThankfully, Senator Jeff Sessions, Republican, of the Great Karl Rove Justice System State of Alabama, reminded us that it was all those crazy civil liberties extremists like Feingold with their obsession with ‘walls’ and ‘checks’ and ‘balances’ whose crazy fanaticism caused 9/11.
If those civil liberties freaks had never had so much power, then for some unknown reason George Bush Jr. wouldn’t have completely ignored all the screaming terrorism warnings he had been given, and Richard Clarke’s desperate attempts to have high level meetings about imminent terrorist threats wouldn’t have been ignored.
See? 9/11? It’s ’cause of Senators like Dodd & Feingold.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:36 pmThis is indeed the question of our times.
My difference of opinion is not with the democratic leadership, however. They have long since lost my support or belief in their virtue.
My beef is with the majority of democratic voters who are seemingly more concerned about electability than principle. Wrapped in pragmatism, they cower in fear and they concede the high ground.
Why is Dennis Kucinich literally cropped out of an AP photo of all of the candidates onstage at a debate?
Why must Dodd be a “long shot” when he’s consistently on the right side of the issues that everyone cries out for?
Why is the question. And it’s posed to YOU, democratic voter.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:36 pmFeinstein just voted for cloture.. GOD I can’t stand her!
December 17th, 2007 at 12:37 pmas did Chuck Shumer? WTF happenwed to them? What did all the illegal spying uncover? Don’t Chucky and Frankenstein understand that any evidence against them would be inadmissable if they keep the telecom companies’ lawsuits going?
oops. Carl Levin just voted for cloture too…
December 17th, 2007 at 12:39 pmAND Ted Kennedy…
December 17th, 2007 at 12:39 pmSo far, I think there are only 5 or 6 NO votes:
Boxer
Feingold
Harkin
Kerry
Menendez
Someone please post the names of the Senators that voted NO AND the names of those that did not vote at all. Thanks.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:41 pmFeinstein and Schumer vote AYE! Are you kidding me? Wow!!
December 17th, 2007 at 12:42 pmMy “tantrum” isn’t looking so bad right now, is it?
Can I get some support? Hello…. anybody with nads in here? Any fighters?
December 17th, 2007 at 12:43 pmYes-76
No-10
America just got screwed…again!!
December 17th, 2007 at 12:43 pm“[W]e say to President Bush that a nation of truly free men and women would never take ‘trust me’ for an answer, not even from a perfect president — and certainly not from himâ€
I always thought Bush’s motto was “What, me worry?”
December 17th, 2007 at 12:45 pmHill’reh finally says what all Dems are thinking, she is on a suicide mission for President - do or die:
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/ 2007/ 12/ 17/ on-the-road-clinton-backers-not-on-a-suicide-mission/
December 17th, 2007 at 12:48 pmjeebus, 76-10. Reid: ‘everything’s going to take 60 votes’….b/c we either WANT to be complicit in the horrors OR don’t think the american people are intelligent enough to understand our articulated, righteous, outrage IF we [finally] sustain fillibuster threats.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:51 pmGOOOOOOOOOO DODD!!!!!!!!!!!
December 17th, 2007 at 12:52 pmI might just be becoming a Dodd supporter!!!!! Where’s Hillary? Where’s Obama?
December 17th, 2007 at 12:53 pmWhy is the question. And it’s posed to YOU, democratic voter.
Comment by FearandSmear — December 17, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
Despite the dog and pony shoe, the dems are controlled by the same people who control the republicans. They don’t want change, they just want to put on a good facade that they are doing something worthwhile.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:54 pmBetrayal by your (our) own party.
Throw these fascists bums (the Democratic leadership) out.
I’ve already told you how to push them up against the wall. Anybody else got a better idea?
Hello?
December 17th, 2007 at 12:55 pmYou won’t take “trust me” as an answer? Then why do you take “I don’t recall” and “no” as answers constantly?
December 17th, 2007 at 12:56 pmProgressive Base: “Meow”.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:57 pmI do hope that Senator Dodd will be a part of Al Gore’s cabinet if he can’t win the presidency when Al asks us to elect him. This one act will raise him above all other candidates currently asking us to vote for them. This one is willing to prove it. How refreshing is that?
December 17th, 2007 at 12:57 pmHey, Jason: STFU or get back on the French President schtick.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:58 pmMA: i got nads. bulging, dangerous, ones. Were you able to peruse the material linked in #13? It seems that Paul may not be a coward…but he’s a viking targeting his own village.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:59 pmKucinich or bust. Our choice.
Any recommendations?
So, anybody else have any suggestions as to how we rid ourselves of these fleas?
Like the fellow at the Global Warming Conference said last week: If you’re not going to lead, get out of the way.
Threaten to vote (R), and if we get no response, do it.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
December 17th, 2007 at 12:59 pmWhere is Hillary and Barack? Goddamit! Where are these two cowards? They should be standing shoulder to shoulder with Dodd and join his filibuster!
If the two leading Democratic Candidates joined the filibuster then the Democratic Party would fall in line.
And maybe the corporate media would actually cover the story. And the people would be informed as to what is at stake. As it stands, the American public is totally ignorant about this story.
The 4th amendment rests with the courage of Barack and Hillary. It looks like they are cowards and will let the 4th amendment die. Pathetic! Stop your campaigning for President and start acting like a President. An endorsement from a newspaper in Iowa means NOTHING to ANYBODY with a brain. Get your damn asses back to Washington already and join the filibuster!!
December 17th, 2007 at 1:01 pmWhat is it w/ this idiot Hendler?
He never posts anything about the topic of the thread, just one link after another about “Hill’reh”.
Geez, you almost have to come to the conclusion Hendler is packin’ wood in his Depends for her.
Commies, Jason, Commies! Commies, Commies, Commies everywhere!
December 17th, 2007 at 1:02 pmJason Hitler, did you notice that your whackjob McCain is taking recommendations from traitors? Any port in a storm with you America-haters.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:03 pmwhere ARE Hillary and Barack??
December 17th, 2007 at 1:03 pmFu(king congressional worms.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:04 pmGlad to hear you have the nads.
I’ll go w/Kuchinch or Dodd or Gore, but I still think we need to send a clear message that we’ll sooner burn our own house down than to let a bunch of cowards do it to us.
Ron paul is a maniac, but at least he’s an honest maniac. The Dem leadership can’t be trusted, as they are the lowest form of cur, as well as being turncoats.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:04 pmVoting republican in protest remains a fool’s errand, Marcus, however symbolic you might like to think it is.
The point you raised in your post above, however, is far more in keeping with what I have come to expect from reading your comments on a regular basis.
“Tantrum” was too sharp a word. My bad.
Really Friggin’ Bad Idea, does that work better? : )
December 17th, 2007 at 1:04 pm.
The fact that we have men and women serving THE PEOPLE up on Capital Hill who seek to disarm the people of their Rights, forking immunity to BOTH the people who order that VIOLATION and whom DO VIOLATE or FOURTH AMENDMENT Rights, should give one pause.
If they aren’t fighting to support and defend the Constitution from enemies foreign OR domestic, freely and WITHOUT mental reservation OR a purpose of evasion, THEN WHAT AND WHO are they defending and protecting exactly then?
TREASON of the Highest.
The reason we don’t have an answer as to WHAT exactly ARE High Crimes and Misdemenours aer is because Congress is trying to figure out how they aren’t implicated.
Many memers of Congress have acted in COLLUSION at assaulting our Rights. Nancy Pelosi is one to start. Harry Reid is another. Harman takes “SECRET” Oaths to the President. Shall we go on?
I stlii stand by my claim:
SINCE WHEN HAS WARRANTLESS EVERBEEN LEGAL?
.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:05 pmSo, anybody else have any suggestions as to how we rid ourselves of these fleas?
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
My vote will be anti-corporate. If Kucinich isn’t on the ballot I’m voting Green…Cynthia McKinney. She’s right on all the issues.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:06 pmHow many times do the Senate Democratic leadership think they can fail us and still get support? Apparently, they think there is no end to our patience. If your Senator voted for cloture, tell him/her to not bother running next time. If your hoped for candiate was a Senator voting for cloture, nix him/her. Or else prepare for the BOHICA repeatedly.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:07 pmThreaten to vote (R), and if we get no response, do it.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
Not a chance. You don’t get progressive candidates by threatening non-progressive candidates and then voting for right wing candidates. That makes no sense at all.
I haven’t voted for a Republican in 37 years and I’m not about to start now. I understand your frustration and applaud your desire to support progressives, but your strategy is bogus.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:07 pmArticle 1, Section 9 of the Constitution:
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:08 pmComment by FearandSmear — December 17, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Voting (R) is the only thing they’ll understand. I’m not BSing here: We need to draw a line and dare them to even think about crossing it.
The Dem leadership isn’t the lesser of two evils - they are the same evil.
Mark my words: if we let these cowards in, we’ll look back fondly at the Bush administration.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:08 pmS’all I was sayin’…
December 17th, 2007 at 1:09 pmThey must understand that people around the globe are watching this! It is crucial that the rule of law is respected in the largest world economy. If they grant immunity to the telecon companies… the USA’s image aborad is already in pieces, if they grant immunity to these crooks… Is this what they want? People hating and laughing about the USA????!!!! The Bush administration has to face accountability. Otherwise forget trying to window dress the USA’s image. This is very serious! The American people should be outside Congress right now demanding accountability, not immunity! Shame on Feinstein… making a lot of noise but when it comes to the crunch, she votes what Bush wants. Shame!
December 17th, 2007 at 1:10 pmBut she’s not in the leadership, and she can’t win. we need some good, old fashioned, brinkmanship.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:10 pmThen we start voting (I). Screw both parties if they will not follow the will of the people.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:10 pmAt this point, a vote for any of the Dem leadership is a vote for the Republicans. Stop reading the label and taste what’s in the can. It’s pure Republican.
BTW: Why is the strategy bogus? What the hell do you think carrots and sticks are for?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:12 pmThreaten to vote (R), and if we get no response, do it.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
Hi, how will that help the situation?
only a well-defined independent/new-party platform can help us.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:13 pmhow about the Progressive Party?
Threatening to vote (I) is powerless. Threatening to vote (R) is a real threat.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:13 pmHillary never had me, and Obama just lost me for good.
Is the roll call up yet?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:14 pmThey must understand that people around the globe are watching this!
Comment by sacopenapa — December 17, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
That’s funny. I was watching CNN Headline news for 1 hour while exericsing and they didn’t even mention the FISA debate. They had stories on the snowstorm, lots of videos of people shoveling, Drew Peterson, a blond girl was accidentally killed on a slide etc.
Then the pretty blonde anchor said “Its our job to keep you informed!”.
But for some reason CNN headline news doesn’t want its viewers to know the 4th amendment’s destruction is imminent. Gee, I wonder why?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:15 pmAt this point, a vote for any of the Dem leadership is a vote for the Republicans. Stop reading the label and taste what’s in the can. It’s pure Republican.
BTW: Why is the strategy bogus? What the hell do you think carrots and sticks are for?
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
First of all, if your strategy helps elect Republicans it will help defeat even the mildest of progressive causes. We were all pretty happy after the Democrats won a tiny majority in 2006, but it’s proven to be a useless majority because it isn’t veto-proof.
I’ve been around long enough not to be a huge fan of the Democrats, although my own representative is definitely progressive and I’m pretty happy with my Democratic Senator. I’ve been supportive of third party candidates when it makes sense. Handing Congress back to the Republicans out of spite makes no sense at all.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:17 pmonly a well-defined independent/new-party platform can help us.
how about the Progressive Party?
Comment by pablo picasso — December 17, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
If the people want to effect that big a change, we better get our asses busy — YESTERDAY.
No more American laziness — am I wrong to be pessimistic?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:17 pm#8 Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 12:24 pm
Because Corporate media tells us that the needed “CHANGE” for America is a choice between a white fascist male, a black man or a woman. This is a blockbuster year for them. Much $$$$$$ has been paid to the corporations to keep this image alive.
Why do you think Alan Keyes was allowed in the Iowa Debate but Kucinich wasn’t? Keyes NEVER HAS HAD ANY OFFICE in Iowa, Kucinich has had an office, a home office. So, if the PRIVATE INSTITUTION that hosted the Debate was following the rules, then what actually was the differentiation they now use to justify their duplicity.
Oh, BTW, that private institution, went and endorsed Hillary.
The Democratic Party of Iowa NEVER RAN THEIR DEBATE… so who did?
Oh, yea, Hillary’s supporter did….
.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:18 pmThe Dems are the “Progressive” party. Threatening to vote (R) puts the power squarely in the other court - it’s a real possibility. Either represent your base, or your base joins and dilutes your opposition’s power.
Threatening to vote (I) is like threatening to punish a kid by taking away his iPod. Threatening to vote (R) is like whupping the spoiled brat’s a$$ and offering more where that came from.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:19 pmI love you, Zooey.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:20 pmIf you think bolting from the Democratic party and voting independent or Republican in protest is such a great idea, then perhaps you should support McCain, who just got endorsed by the turncoat Lieberman who is probably vying for a VP slot, again.
I maintain that ANY of the Democratic candidates would be far better for this country than ANY of the Republican candidates.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:21 pmWe can’t put the power back into the hands of the Thugs: we did that when we voted for these traitorous cowards.
Cowards understand and react to fear.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:23 pm, he said a he took a long pull on the jar of Kool-aid.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:24 pm.
Oh Markus, er… Frank,
Go back to that crack pipe under your bridge.
.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:25 pmDon’t slander me, boy.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:26 pmuh, ron paul’s moral compass has reversed polarity:
http://www.dailykos.com/ storyonly/ 2007/ 12/ 13/ 131540/ 47/ 78/ 420978
Comment by pablo picasso — December 17, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
No, Ron Paul has always nucking futz, only his anti-Iraq war stance make any sense at all.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:26 pmOur phone-in and email campaign certainly didn’t work. Y’know why? It doesn’t contain a threat to the Dem power structure. Let’s try some more appeasement and hand-wringing.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:28 pmSo Marcus, when will you kick off the Nader ‘08 campaign, exactly?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:28 pmNo more American laziness — am I wrong to be pessimistic?
Comment by Zooey — December 17, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
Sadly no. Today’s vote shows that even if we overwhelmingly put Dems in power, they will serve the powers that be just the same. Today’s vote shows that when it really gets down to the heart of matters, there is no difference between Dem and Rep.
I’m pessimistic as I feel like I know what I want this country to be, yet I have absolutely no say in the matter. If voting makes no difference, what can an average American do?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:29 pmA vote for Dennis Kucinich is a vote for Dennis Kucinich, not the Democratic party. A vote for Dodd is a vote for Dodd.
I guess I still fail to see how punishing the Democratic leadership by handing the presidency to the Republicans represents any kind of useful strategy for progressives.
Peace.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:29 pmWhen the economy crashes (and it’s well on its way), the gold standard will look pretty good, too.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:30 pmHillary never had me, and Obama just lost me for good.
Comment by Zooey — December 17, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
I’ve called both offices several times. I told them I’m a Kucinich supporter. I made it clear that I don’t like Hillary or Barack. But if they were willing to join Dodd in his filibuster I’d consider voting for them when election day comes. Otherwise, let them rot. I won’t vote for either.
Considering that Hillary’s lead has slipped away and Barack’s momentum may be a mirage, you’d think both candidates would jump at the chance to win the support of the left wing/indys. We’re a segment that they need to carry to win. So its beyond comprehension why both haven’t run back to Washington to join the filibuster. Don’t they see this will win them millions of undecided votes?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:33 pmIn the same way pushing a dog’s nose into its own feces works. Do you think the candidates who failed to stand up today were one whit worried what the Progressives think? Can you venture a guess as to why they failed to put up some resistance to (R) criminality? If you try really hard, i’ll bet you can. Are you that deluded?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:33 pmNo, they don’t. We need to make them see that they will lose votes they are already counting on. We need to make them see that they’ll lose the election. We need them to understand that we know their product does not differ from the other guy’s. The choice between Coke and Pepsi isn’t an issue when it’s water you want.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:37 pmZ- As of last week lots of of folks (myself kinda included) were semi-delusionally hoping that 97% of the dems weren’t corrupt. With unqualified war support and this FISA disgrace, the bulk of real progressives can no longer harbor such optimism.
You’re not pessimistic. The burden of informing/empowering/activating ie Guiliani-moms and Hillary-moms…is very real. Recall, Dec of Indep: “…all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed”.
I must learn more about timelines and hurdles for 3rd party presidential runs.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:38 pmEither way, after the dem primary is held, and balked, we can coordinate a conference with ie Kucinich, Feingold, newcomers, us…to make the Progressive Party a reality.
I’ve worked with the Greens a bunch…and must reassess the distance i’ve allowed.
What’s a better forum for bringing others into this?
Face it, the Clintonistas own you.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:38 pmMarcus - I sincerely appreciate the pessimism you’re feeling. Finding a way that is workable is the only cure. I don’t know that such a way will be found, but I’m going to keep believing it can be, because I don’t have the wherewithal to relocate my family to a better place.
If I were a single 20-something, I’d already be living abroad. For good.
Since I’ve got to be here now, I’d rather believe there are better times ahead - the alternative is too damned discouraging.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:39 pmHere’s the rollcall:
http://www.senate.gov/ legislative/ LIS/ roll_call_lists/ roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00435
UG
December 17th, 2007 at 1:40 pmwhere did i put my flyswatter!?
Hendler, shoo! you’re a pest, at best.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:40 pmIf you are all pisssed at Hillary and Obama, then vote for Dodd or Kucinich. Don’t take your orders from the MSM! Dodd deserves our vote. He has consistently shown leadership at a time when the others are playing politics! And do not vote Republican! They have done enough damage!
December 17th, 2007 at 1:41 pmBow to Queen Hill’reh, knaves!
December 17th, 2007 at 1:42 pmIt is absolutely time for a Progressive Party. Who’s in?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:43 pm, he said a he took a long pull on the jar of Kool-aid.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
whatever.
You seem to be doing an incredible job of telling us not to let anyone tell us how to think.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:43 pmFace it: Hillary gives you wood.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:44 pmMe.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:44 pmIn the same way pushing a dog’s nose into its own feces works. Do you think the candidates who failed to stand up today were one whit worried what the Progressives think? Can you venture a guess as to why they failed to put up some resistance to (R) criminality? If you try really hard, i’ll bet you can. Are you that deluded?
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Then vote for Dodd or Kucinich, since they are actually doing something. If you vote for Ron Paul, you are as much a fcking loon as he is.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:46 pmBow to your Cheerleader Prince, Hendler - you ought to be used to it by now.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:46 pmBow to Queen Hill’reh, knaves!
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 17, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
You are so proficient at telling us who we are supporting. Yet, you have not indicated who you are supporting. Why don’t you tell us and try to convince us to join your candidate, with logical debate, rather than post your “Hill’reh” routine ad nauseum?
December 17th, 2007 at 1:47 pmYou need some remedial reading comprehension classes.
the Dems think they have the election locked up. we need to show them the error of their thinking. The WH is all they want, and it’s all we have to take from them. Sniveling time is over.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:47 pmI’m in, too, Lefty.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:47 pmSo if this passes, does this mean I can break the law and not expect to be arrested or anything….whoot!!! Pass the bottle and give me the keys to the Vette.
Bush/Cheney
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
December 17th, 2007 at 1:50 pmPLC,
I don’t think our federal or state governments are going to be the source of leadership going forward. It will be venture capital startups running competing enterprises against those that need to be phased out - Nanosolar, Tesla Motors & Fisker are examples of such enterprises.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:51 pmAnd if you think there’s a difference (granted, K and D are the best of the bunch, as is Feingold) then you’re freekin’ deluded. I don’t support Paul, but I’d sooner vote for a squirrley fruitcake than for a calculating traitor.
There is no difference between the Dem leadership and the Republicans. Today’s vote proves my point.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:52 pmHendler is a Fascist agitator.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:55 pmThere is no difference between the Dem leadership and the Republicans. Today’s vote proves my point.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
So, you are not voting for the Democrats that fought the leadership’s complicit behaviour, instead you are voting for a loon Repuke?
You make as much sense as a screen door on a submarine……
December 17th, 2007 at 1:58 pmCount me in the Progressive party, let’s recruit Russ, Dennis, Wexler et al, and go from there.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:03 pmMy toe was aching the other day, so I took a saw and cut my leg off.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:04 pmThere, much better.
Interested parties, thus far, in creating the Progressive Party:
lefty
zooey
Pablo Picasso
Tombaker
Marcus Aurelius
Keep this list running/jumping into new posts…until there’s a suggestion for how/where to efficiently host the discussion.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:04 pmRecs?!!
I’m talking about two sides of the same coin. if that’s good enough for you, then you don’t have much backbone behind your politics. I’m saying that we need to reel these traitors in, NOW. Do you really think that the Dem leadership will advance Kucinich or Dodd? Do you think your support for either of these candidates will overcome the will of the Dem Leadership? The only thing these cowards will understand is fear. Let’s put some fear in their hearts.
Message to the Dem leadership: get on the bus, or get run over.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:05 pmHello? McFly?
START A NEW PARTY!!!
December 17th, 2007 at 2:06 pmMy aching toe was actually gangrene - I didn’t cut my leg off and it killed me.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:06 pmInterested parties, thus far, in creating the Progressive Party:
lefty
zooey
Pablo Picasso
Tombaker
Marcus Aurelius
RUCerious
Add your name and repost! Keep this list running/jumping into new posts…until there’s a suggestion for how/where to efficiently host the discussion.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:08 pmRecs?!!
Comment by pablo picasso
Right on!
December 17th, 2007 at 2:11 pmI love you, Zooey.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
But will you respect me after the elections? ;)
December 17th, 2007 at 2:13 pmDemocrats who voted for cloture:
Akaka (D-HI)
December 17th, 2007 at 2:13 pmBaucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Byrd (D-WV)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lincoln (D-AR)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tester (D-MT)
Webb (D-VA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Democrats who voted for cloture:
December 17th, 2007 at 2:14 pmHow many of these aholes are up for reelection soon?
Hehehehe. So much passion in here. I love this threads.
I agree with Marcus Aurelius, though.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:14 pmInterested parties, thus far, in creating the Progressive Party:
lefty
zooey
Pablo Picasso
Tombaker
Marcus Aurelius
RUCerious
whiteyfresh
Keep it goin y’all!!!!!!
December 17th, 2007 at 2:14 pmthese threads.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:15 pmBut will you respect me after the elections? ;)
Comment by Zooey
LMAO!!! Clever girl.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:15 pmThank you, Juan.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:16 pmThe respect came before the love!
December 17th, 2007 at 2:16 pmalso, cloture vote ALLOWS for the filibuster/without it, no discussion on bill.
Case in point, Senator Kennedy is TRASHING the telecom immunity bill as we speak.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:16 pmI thought cloture ends the debate and sends it to a vote.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:22 pmAdd your name and repost! Keep this list running/jumping into new posts…until there’s a suggestion for how/where to efficiently host the discussion.
Recs?!!
Comment by pablo picasso — December 17, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
I’ve set up an open thread on TheZoo for anyone wishing to discuss this:
TheZoo
December 17th, 2007 at 2:24 pmMy aching toe was actually gangrene - I didn’t cut my leg off and it killed me.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Touche! Point well taken.
But I will do whatever it takes to keep the Repukes out of another four years in the white house.
Meanwhile, I look forward to building a viable alternative to the corporatists of any political party.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:25 pmCloture.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:26 pmA parliamentary procedure for ending debate on an issue and moving directly to a vote. The US Senate adopted a cloture rule in 1917 that requires a two-thirds vote of that body to end a filibuster; rarely employed in deference to the Senate tradition of free debate.
Another definition
December 17th, 2007 at 2:27 pmIn the Senate, the only way to end a filibuster is through a cloture vote. If a super majority of 60 senators vote for cloture, time limits for debate will be set.
http://www.uaw.org/cap/05/polact/polact06.cfm
Right but does it end the filibuster or does the filibuster come after the cloture?
December 17th, 2007 at 2:27 pmMy aching toe was actually gangrene - I didn’t cut my leg off and it killed me.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — December 17, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Good, then you can’t vote for Ron Paul, who would really ruin the economy amdis a racist piece of sh!t to boot. =P
My primary vote is going for Kunicich, the hell with no vote Hillary and Obama
December 17th, 2007 at 2:27 pmSo it’s done then
December 17th, 2007 at 2:28 pmoh, apparently, they are discussing the Amendment the Harry Greed put up, that strips the immunity clause.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:29 pmThe United States has only two directions to go:
1. The parth taken by many failed deocracies that became fascist states such as NAZI Germany. The government takes on far more than it can handle and its enemies or internal resistance destroys the government.
2. It devolves into an oppressive tyrany that will go on indefinitely because the government receives enough support from vested economic elites and has sufficient force to silence dissent.
I believe that the United States will take the second route. The Democrat party has been coopted by the same economic elites that purchased the Republican party. The rising tide of evangelical religion will sedate the masses until subjegation is complete.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:29 pmIt’s done, lefty. Sold out by his own party.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:30 pmwell, that Reid put up but was written by other, REAL Americans
December 17th, 2007 at 2:30 pmI know I’m gonna sound obnoxious but I told you so. Dems and Reps are installed in govt positions to represent CORPORATIONS.
If corporations agree that invading Iraq is better for their profits, the govt will come up with some patriotic display and excuse to do it. If corporations decide that is better for their profits to keep children overseas working 18 hours a day, they will do it. There are very few real democratic tools to stop the will of corporations cause the law is made by the ruling class. Do you think Hitler invaded just because he hated Jews? German corporations thought that by invading land they would flood those markets as well.
There is NO DEMOCRACY. Greeks had slaves, and Jefferson had slaves.
Yeah, I know I’m a dirty communist, but I am right and not because I’m smart, but because it is so freaking evident.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:31 pmThat vote will be wasted unless you help to hold the leadership’s feet to the fire.
as I said - it’s counterintuitive, but a threat to hand the vote to the Thugs is all that will move the leadership.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:32 pmJuan & RUC,
If people would like to discuss the Progressive party on TheZoo, I have an open thread set up here.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:34 pmlefty, I believe it stipulates that time limits may be set for debate, as opposed to unlimited time for debate…
December 17th, 2007 at 2:34 pmAnd there’s only one way to deprive them of their prize - threaten to give it to the Rethuglicans.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:36 pmOne bright spot for me: my good Democratic Senator voted nay. Go Wyden!
December 17th, 2007 at 2:44 pmGood to have a representative, huh? What state?
December 17th, 2007 at 2:46 pmAnd there’s only one way to deprive them of their prize - threaten to give it to the Rethuglicans.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
I’m not so sure. I don’t imagine any former Dem Senator washing windshields on the streets for some coins IF the Republicans win again. My guess is that they (Dems and Reps) don’t care too much about which party gets the Presidency, as long as they hold their elite condition.
I would vote for the one I would like to see as President, the person that represents me the most (which is the whole deal, of course), not the one that has more chances to win. That’s simply pathetic. I rather die with my convictions unaltered than selling myself out for some illusory commonwealth.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:53 pmSenator Kennedy made an excellent point in noting that the FISA act is vital to national security, yet the president has said that if the revisions don’t include immunity for the telcom companies, he will veto the bill.
In other words, Bush is willing to sacrifice national security to protect the telecoms.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:56 pmMade my first politcal donation ever today to Dodd. Even my broke @ss felt the need to support this man with what little I’ve got. Give ‘em hell Dodd!
December 17th, 2007 at 2:58 pmDudd looks very drunk in this picture.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 17, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
that’s a mirror you’re looking at, drunkie.
December 17th, 2007 at 3:04 pmIn other words, Bush is willing to sacrifice national security to protect the telecoms.
Comment by Kane — December 17, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
he was willing to sacrifice the WTC to protect the Bin laden family, so no surprise here.
December 17th, 2007 at 3:05 pmThank goodness my senator, Ron Wyden, voted no on cloture. He seems to keep on doing the right thing. Shame on Gordon Smith. But then, I didn’t expect anything different from him.
December 17th, 2007 at 3:17 pmComment by LRinOR
Wyden signed the blank check for carnage:
December 17th, 2007 at 3:40 pmhttp://www.senate.gov/ legislative/ LIS/ roll_call_lists/ roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00433
Wyden signed the blank check for carnage:
http://www.senate.gov/ legislative/ LIS/ roll_call_lists/ roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00433
Comment by pablo picasso — December 17, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
Mea culpa. I wasn’t aware of his vote on this.
December 17th, 2007 at 3:46 pmLR- the DC CW on this is that the $ must still be appropriated. But the WH is happy for a reason. If the bulk of dems weren’t just lip service…they’d shut the whole place down. Two weeks is all it would take for the 60+% of the public that wants out…to see the holes in a GOP fillibuster…and shame enough to hit 2/3s.
December 17th, 2007 at 4:14 pmAlas, all kabuki.
Dems not taking this route…is just the tip of the untruths iceberg [read: 9/11, anthrax attacks, etc]
:(
Dudd looks very drunk in this picture.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 17, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
This coming from a Bush supporter? I guess it’s a show of confidence in Dodd then.
December 17th, 2007 at 4:56 pm“…that participated in the Bush administration’s illegal spying efforts.â€
But the efforts were not illegal. Despite the Democrats’ best efforts, it’s still not illegal to defend America.
Comment by USA_Patriot — December 17, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
The spying started before 9/11 and the administration itself admits that terrorism wasn’t a priority then - so what exactly were they protecting us from? Curious to know the rationale for this USA_Nationalist.
December 17th, 2007 at 4:58 pmAgain, if they didn’t do anything wrong, why would they want/need retroactive immunity???
December 17th, 2007 at 6:12 pmBingo. #151 is correct. Why immunity? Why destroy tapes of CIA interrogations? Why have Mukasey refuse to turn over information?
THEY ARE GUILTY. Hope and pray Congress stops Madman Bush.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:32 pmIt doesn’t matter whether Bush can be trusted (obviously his record speaks for itself). It doesn’t matter that Bush is at Nixon or lower in approval ratings. As long as we have a spineless Democratic leadership in Congress, they will roll over without Bush even having to sneeze.
December 17th, 2007 at 9:00 pmnot as much as it costs to lose two third-world wars though.
December 17th, 2007 at 11:32 pmThank you, Mr. Dodd. Go to hell, Reid/Feinstein/Schumer/Pelosi.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:29 amReid needs to grow a set!
December 18th, 2007 at 7:57 amIf you think bolting from the Democratic party and voting independent or Republican in protest is such a great idea, then perhaps you should support McCain, who just got endorsed by the turncoat Lieberman who is probably vying for a VP slot, again.
I maintain that ANY of the Democratic candidates would be far better for this country than ANY of the Republican candidates.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian — December 17, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
Recommend (1) | Report Abuse
I love patrioticliberalchristian.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:52 pmIf we lose anything, it’s going to be because of the self-righteous fellow Democrats “If I can’t get my way, I’m going to vote for the opposition, or throw my vote away on the Greeeeen Party, take THAT Hillary! Nenner nenner!”
If any of you actually think that any republican would be better than Hillary, specifically, go ahead and screw our country even more because of your 3rd grade temper tantrum.
I’ve seen anti-Hillary dems more than anyone threaten to not vote, or throw their votes away…it’s ok, we don’t need people like you on the Progressive side anyways if you’re that self-centered to just hand the country over to the republicans. VOTE DEM, or accept the consequences…another lying republican.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:55 pmDudd looks very drunk in this picture.
Comment by cold_hard_left — December 17, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
This coming from a Bush supporter? I guess it’s a show of confidence in Dodd then.
Comment by Stupid Git — December 17, 2007 @ 4:56 pm
Recommend (1) | Report Abuse
And cold_hard_left knows the difference between that “drunk look” and that cocaine snortin’ billion dollar look…huh, cold?
December 18th, 2007 at 12:57 pm“…that participated in the Bush administration’s illegal spying efforts.â€
But the efforts were not illegal. Despite the Democrats’ best efforts, it’s still not illegal to defend America.
Comment by USA_Patriot — December 17, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
At what point is it ok for the United States Government to spy willy nilly, without oversight?
Let me ask that again..At what point are you comfortable with your Government spying without oversight? WITHOUT OVERSIGHT?!
Oh, wait…you’re an authoritarian minded lemming, who believe the Government can police itself, and isn’t made up of the US citizenry. You believe the Government wouldn’t do any harm to its people.
Sorry buddy, but Government should be transparent…but with caucasions going around killing people randomly via terrorist attacks in malls and churches, I certainly can understand your weak-kneed desire to just throw away protections because you think it will make you safer.
What defines a terrorist? An American company like Chiquita Banana funding terrorists in South America? The Columbine kids? The Colorado religious nut with a boner for Ted Hagard and his hypocritical ways? Or maybe the basement living, conservative Ann Coulter lover Chad Castagana who sent fake anthrax out to “liberal” talk show hosts?
How can the same people wanting to “keep America safe” be so damned thin-skinned, thick-headed and have such poor reading comprehension that OVERSIGHT IN GOVERNMENT is a bad thing to them?
READ 1984 IMMEDIATELY!
December 18th, 2007 at 1:03 pmPLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.. Everyone who is so enthusiastic about Senator Dodd’s heroism, PLEASE take a moment to visit his website, and voice your support.. and/or even better.. show it with a contribution. I contributed and then called Senator Clinton’s office (both campaign and Senate office, as I’m a New Yorker..) and told them I did, and how disappointed I was that she didn’t think it important to show up. I then emailed her, as well, and will email Barack later. This is how we get them to finally listen.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:10 pm