Deputy AG Nominee: Waterboarding Is ‘Repugnant,’ But Can’t Say Whether It’s Torture
Deputy AG Nominee: Waterboarding Is ‘Repugnant,’ But Can’t Say Whether It’s Torture
Today in his nomination hearing to be Deputy Attorney General, Mark Filip refused to explicitly say whether he believed waterboarding to be torture. He told Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA) that he found the interrogation technique “repugnant,” but couldn’t answer without taking “a long hard look at” the information:
KENNEDY: The key question is what constitutes torture. So the question that Judge Mukasey would say nothing at all on that question. So the same question to you: Do you consider waterboarding torture.
MARK FILIP: Senator, speaking personally, I consider waterboarding to be repugnant as it’s been reported in any of its various iterations. […]
That said, the Attorney General of the United States is presently reviewing that legal question. He determined that he wanted to have access to the classified information and memos about it. I don’t think I can or anyone who could be potentially considered to be his deputy could get out in front of him on that question while it’s under review.
Watch it:
Kennedy continued to press Filip, expressing surprise that he was dodging the issue:
I must say, everyone is familiar with the challenges that were out there for Mr. Mukasey when he refused to give an answer on that, and we thought you’d be able to give a response to this. You’ve been a judge, made the decisions, know what the issues are. It’s not a complicated issue in question, and it seems to be that you ought to be able to respond to it.
Filip simply replied that he awaits the opportunity to have “access to that information” so that he can “give candid advice to the Attorney General.
In October, the Senate Judiciary Committee was set to approve Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey with little objection, until he obfuscated on waterboarding. Mukasey claimed that although waterboarding was “repugnant” to him on a “personal basis,” he was unable to strike a “legal opinion” without the “actual facts and circumstances.”
UPDATE: Later in the hearing, Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) told Filip that he was not “satisfied” with Filip’s answer on waterboarding:
I think it is a response consistent with Attorney General Mukasey. But consistent with Attorney General Mukasey’s response to this committee, he received the lowest confirmation vote of any Attorney General nominee in the last fifty years. And that’s where you find yourself at this moment, over the same issue.
Transcript:
KENNEDY: I just wanted to clarify an earlier response that you gave to Chairman Leahy, that was on the torture issue. I heard you say to the Chairman that torture is unconstitutional so it’s always prohibited. Judge Mukasey said the same thing to us. But everyone agrees with that point. The key question is what constitutes torture. So the question that Judge Mukasey would say nothing at all on that question. So the same question to you: Do you consider waterboarding torture.
MARK FILIP: Senator, speaking personally, I consider waterboarding to be repugnant as it’s been reported in any of its various iterations. The Attorney General — I also think it’s important for us to all be mindful that we have service members around the world often times in precarious places, and I don’t view that as some sort of abstract platitude. I had a grandfather who was in a German prisoner of war camp.
That said, the Attorney General of the United States is presently reviewing that legal question. He determined that he wanted to have access to the classified information and memos about it. I don’t think I can or anyone who could be potentially considered to be his deputy could get out in front of him on that question while it’s under review. But I will tell you that if I’m confirmed at a time such that that review is ongoing or he otherwise sought my advice on it, I would view it like any other legal question and take a long hard look at it, and if I had a view on it different from his, I would tell him so.
KENNEDY: Well, you’ve been a judge. You know what this issue is. This shouldn’t be something that’s going to take a lot more study about. I mean, you know what we’re talking about. Not only are you familiar with the concept but you know the arguments of it, and you know what the debate’s been about, and you know what the Geneva Convention. I mean, we ought to get — “repugnant” is not the answer that meets the requirement in terms of the various statutes. You’re not prepared to tell us in your own words whether you believe that waterboarding is torture, the same kind of techniques that the United States prosecuted Japanese for doing to Americans in World War II.
FILIP: I think Senator that I’d await having access to that information, and await an opportunity of confirm to give candid advice to the Attorney General on that before I answer a question he presently has under review.
KENNEDY: Well others will come, I’m sure, back to that, but I must say, everyone is familiar with the challenges that were out there for Mr. Mukasey when he refused to give an answer on that, and we thought you’d be able to give a response to this. You’ve been a judge, made the decisions, know what the issues are. It’s not a complicated issue in question, and it seems to be that you ought to be able to respond to it.
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Perhaps they could acknowledge that it’s erutrot. Saying it in code might be easier.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:54 amHow long? How hard?
December 19th, 2007 at 11:55 amFunny how we used to put Japanese interrogators in front of a firing squad for waterboarding American prisoners, and now these sick neocons can’t decide whether waterboarding is torture.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:55 amJesus H. Christ on a cracker!!! WTF does it take???
How about we give that moron a little “swimming lesson”…? THEN he’d know for sure that waterboarding IS torture.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:56 amwell lets break out the tub and board and see what we can really learn about him.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:57 amThis answer should disqualify him, though the new AG wasn’t disqualified for a similar answer. The democrats are really p!ssing me off. We need better democrats in 2008
December 19th, 2007 at 11:57 amSemantics. Let’s just replace torture with lollipops. There, that’s more (ahem) palatable.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:59 amMukasey claimed that although waterboarding was “repugnant†to him on a “personal basis,†he was unable to strike a “legal opinion†without the “actual facts and circumstances.â€
Sounds like most Democratic Congressmen’s opinion about GDumbya and Darth Cheney when it comes to impeachment.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:01 pmOne of the requirements to get a White House appointment to the DoJ is to swear to never answer the question of whether or not waterboarding is torture.
The Dems could deal with this by refusing to confirm anyone who refuses to answer this question.
But they won’t. They’ll do a little tough talk for the cameras, and then roll over and give the White House anything they want.
Anybody else getting sick of this?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:03 pmThe precedents that this administration have laid out will be the very things the republicans will fight against after the next election. Too many cats out of the bag to stop them all. Only after they fall from power do they realize how much they have damaged this country and the balance of power.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:09 pm‘Repugnant’ describes the entire Bush Closet. Err, Cabinet.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:10 pmKeep pressing. Soon they’ll have to plead the 5th. They can’t avoid the simple “yes or no” question forever without being in contempt.
Once they admit it’s illegal, it’ll be GAME OVER for the Bushies.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:12 pmDo you think these guys all together after testifying and just laugh their asses off at how clever they are for being able to completely derail any legal process put before them ?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:15 pmIt is utterly disgusting what has happened to integrity in this country.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
I oppose the police state. Reduce police salaries and reduce the force, all because I say so.
SEEEEEEEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
December 19th, 2007 at 12:17 pmIf a U.S. citizen is waterboarded by anyone, anywhere - it’s not torture. In fact, it’s legal.
Note, too, that ripping out fingernails and toenails is not torture under the Bush “severe pain equivalent to major organ failure or death” definition.
Flogging/whipping is not torture, either.
Nor are thumbscrews and the rack.
Electric shocks, 3rd degree burns, breaking bones.
All “not torture.” All “legal” interrogation techniques under Bush.
And all are “state secrets.” Meaning, as long as the Government never releases the prisoners, nor allows anyone to talk to them, what is being done to whom will never be known.
Meanwhile, the “evidence” obtained by torture is used in trials against third parties.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:17 pmRepugnant, maybe, but necessary. Just like having armed police officers who are sometimes forced to resort to the use of deadly force.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
yes, abner louima would understand perfectly.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:18 pmFrank M. What is the officially accepted definition of Torture in our court system today? Please provide it then defend how waterboarding fits in.
So far you have an opinion thats driven by somebody else’s idea instead of your own understanding of the definitions.
Please educate yourself and then use verifiable statements supported with evidence to solidify your stand.
Otherwise, you have nothing but an opinion that was given to you. Not much to stand on.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:19 pmNecessary for what, Frank?
to elicit false confessions? That has always been the product of torture.
To derive sadistic pleasure? That has always been the driving force behind justifying torture.
That you can torture someone to avoid a holocaust is a myth, a myth perpetuated by those who torture.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:21 pmThe jelly fish just handed Bush another blank check. Now they want to pretend they are tough?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:22 pm#14: “what has happened to integrity in this countryâ€. It’s not profitable.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
Thanks for admitting the real drive behind the Neocons….. not Democracy, not fighting “terrirsts”, but Corporate Profits.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:24 pmCAN’T SAY WHETHER IT’S TORTURE?
QUICK…SOMEBODY GET SCHUMER IN THERE TO STRONG ARM EVERYONE INTO CONFIRMING THIS GUY
AFTER ALL WHAT WE NEED IS ANOTHER BUSH BOT
December 19th, 2007 at 12:24 pmTorture would be leaving a girl under water in your Oldsmobile with a small air pocket while you run off to get fitted for a neck brace and find your lawyer. Think how terrifying that must have been!
Comment by Gin — December 19, 2007 @ 12:22 pm
good thing you don’t have any facts to support that, or you’d need to be tortured. I must have missed the part where Ted Kennedy’s accident was made into public policy. any other straw men you need me to burn for you?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:24 pmYou know, guys like Frank M. were fragged in ‘Nam.
Obviously, he never served because he’s still here.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:25 pmRepugnant, maybe, but necessary. Just like having armed police officers who are sometimes forced to resort to the use of deadly force.
Comment by Frank M —
However, what we’re talking about is equivalent to the police seeing someone on the street, and on the off chance this person may have knowledge of a potential robbery or murder that is going to be taking place sometime in the future, taking them into the back room and beating them until they ‘confess’ to the knowledge.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:25 pmI am my own authority.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:24 pm
spoken like a true Stalinist. why do you hate America, frank?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:26 pmNecessary to induce fear. In order to defeat this enemy, we must use the only thing they understand: violence and fear. We must become just as - or even more - ruthless as they are.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
and in doing that, we become our enemy, and in so doing, we destroy America. just move to Saudi arabia, frank, if you have this much trouble with freedom and civilization. You don’t fit in here.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pmFunny how we used to put Japanese interrogators in front of a firing squad for waterboarding American prisoners, and now these sick neocons can’t decide whether waterboarding is torture.
Comment by shoeless
December 19th, 2007 at 12:31 pmThank you! I couldnt say it better!
Amen, throw ALL THE RASCALS OUT!
Our Government officials accepting torture covers 3 of the 14 points of Fascism:
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
7. Obsession with national security Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite.
It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,†and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal†and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors†was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
It is past time to throw ALL THE RASCALS OUT… I can’t wait for next November, I hope the American people send all these spineless, gutless, corporate lovers back to the private sector. Time to reclaim our country.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pmNot when it violates our own laws Frank M.
Here’s the latest definition I found:
US Code Title 18, part I Cahpter 113C
§ 2340. Definitions
(1) “torture†means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering†means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States†means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
§ 2340A. Torture
(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy
§ 2340B. Exclusive remedies
Nothing in this chapter shall be construed as precluding the application of State or local laws on the same subject, nor shall anything in this chapter be construed as creating any substantive or procedural right enforceable by law by any party in any civil proceeding.
Waterboarding is clearly the threat of imminent death. Continuing to waterboard is violating our own laws. Fear has been used on you to think that this is the only way we can get any information. Show me where any actionable intelligence was gathered by waterboarding. And again I will ask that you have to provide more than your opinion.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pmWe must become just as - or even more - ruthless as they are.
Comment by Frank M
Heh. History shows that works so well…riiight.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pmLooks like the Bush admin had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for this fat dumbass !
December 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pmLooks like no matter what I do or say, you think it’s wrong.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:31 pm
i wonder why? You’re a piss-poor American, frank. the founders pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor, yet you have already given up. suvival is the ultimate ideology if you’re a wild animal, but humans have always had higher ideals. you’ve proven only your sociopathy, your lack of humanity, as well as your utter worthlessness to society as a whole. the world would be better off without you, as your kind is so fond of saying about Saddam, whom you resemble very closely.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:35 pmWATERBOARD FRANK M!
December 19th, 2007 at 12:35 pmWe can’t fight the war with our hands tied behind our back.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
well, then, Bush shouldn’t have put us in this position. he’s the one losing,a nd the closer we move to our enemy’s behavior, the less of a win we can achieve. As far as I’m concerned, we have lost already,a nd history will record this as a loss, like Russia/Afghanistan.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:36 pm“Do you think that the kind of terrorists who are willing to kill themselves in order to take hundreds of infidels with them are going to talk to a nice FBI guy who can’t lay a hand on them. It should be self-evident.”
If they’re willing to die by blowing themselves up or be burned to death after crashing a plane in a building, you don’t think they would also be willing to die while being tortured?
If their faith is strong enough to drive them to kill themselves, I would think that they wouldn’t have a fear of drowning.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:37 pmRepugnant, maybe, but necessary. Just like having armed police officers who are sometimes forced to resort to the use of deadly force.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Even for you, this makes no sense. The two are in no way related. How is torture the same as a police officer using his/her weapon to defend themselves or others
December 19th, 2007 at 12:40 pmAs I said, legal or illegal - I don’t care. We can’t fight the war with our hands tied behind our back.
Comment by Frank M
Frank is scared. Too scared to trust the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Too scared to trust his government to keep him safe in a LEGAL MANNER. Too scared to believe that there are numerous good and effective LEGAL ways to limit the threats we face. Too scared to support the country in which he lives. Too scared to stand up brave and strong.
I wrote yesterday that your laundry bill must be huge, Frank. You did not do your Mom any favors by wetting yourself again today. God, it must suck to be scared all the time.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:40 pmIf their faith is strong enough to drive them to kill themselves, I would think that they wouldn’t have a fear of drowning.
Comment by RickS — December 19, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
besides which, if they so easily outsmarted the Bush/Rice NSA, they will also have plenty of convincing lies ready to end the pain. Nothing of value will be gained, and the really smart ones will mislead and misinform, making our already pitiful attempts even weaker. We have lost, get the troops home.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:40 pmWell Mr. Frank M. we are not a nation of “I don’t care” we are a nation of laws and a democracy where the voice(s) of the public is not only to be heard but to be followed. That’s a democracy.
You have been sold into believing the way this whole mess is being fought now is the only way. Your ignorance and arrogance doesn’t allow you to look at any other options. Good for america you don’t hold the majority view.
We aren’t fighting any “War” now. The Bush administration has just wanted all the fear points of a “war” without all of the sacrifice.
Your incompetence with your statement of legal or illegal - I don’t care reeks of you wanting to do away with democracy because you’ve been told it’s the only way to keep you safe.
Wake up man. This country is so much stronger than that. And it’s at it’s strongest when the laws are upheld and our citizens are active in the decision making.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pm#40: Well, you’re perfectly free to throw away your life by surrendering to the muslim hordes and die thinking of the founding fathers, but please don’t drag the rest of us with you.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
frank, you’ve already surrendered, which is why you are a marked man, a traitor. You should watch your back if your neighbors get wind of your treason.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pmIt is ‘Repugnant,’, it’s “Torture”, and it’s “illegal”. Bush, Cheney and all the rest involved need to go to….
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
December 19th, 2007 at 12:43 pmThis clown’s nomination should be dropped on the embers of the evidence intentionally destroyed this morning in the fire at Cheennneeyyy’s office,,,
December 19th, 2007 at 12:43 pm#40: Well, you’re perfectly free to throw away your life by surrendering to the muslim hordes and die thinking of the founding fathers, but please don’t drag the rest of us with you.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
Where are these hordes Frank? Are they marching through the fields of New Jersey right now. Is their navy massed off Atlantic City. You are a scared little girl. You said before that you are 46 years old, but you act like you’re 6 and the boogey man is in your closet. It’s embarrassing, it really is, but what is most embarrassing is that you don’t find your sniveling cowardice embarrassing. Infact you seem to bask in it, and that is truly shocking
December 19th, 2007 at 12:43 pmWhat’s the rush? The dems need to continue the hearing and tell Filip to go do his research and when he can make a decision on the question, to come back with his answer. Why does a decision be made even if the candidate will not answer questions?
If the dems confrim this clown, then they are playing at protecting our interests rather than acting for Americans best interests and don’t deserve to be in any decision making position for us. Why do they seem to express so much emotional distress over the failure of bushco nominees to answer simple questions but still confirm? Time to replace everyone in Congress!
December 19th, 2007 at 12:44 pmMy own opinion is that we need tools such as waterboarding to help is in the war on terror. FM
But the ‘tool’ is known to be useless in gathering useful information. As such, it is simply torture for no good reason. This is why is was outlawed in the Geneva Conventions.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:44 pmFrank is scared. Too scared to trust the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Too scared to trust his government to keep him safe in a LEGAL MANNER. Too scared to believe that there are numerous good and effective LEGAL ways to limit the threats we face. Too scared to support the country in which he lives. Too scared to stand up brave and strong.
Comment by StratRat
And that’s exactly the way the Neocon’s like em, scared little children, who HATE government “in general”, but are willing to give the government virtually anything in order to be “safe”. Scared to death of the boogey man, yet willing to become the boogey man. STUPID PEOPLE MAKE ME DIZZY.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:45 pmInfact you seem to bask in it, and that is truly shocking
Comment by Blue Stater — December 19, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
it’s hardly shocking. frank has shown himself to be a coward and a traitor from his first post. what’s shocking is that he’s syill allowed to live in a country he hates so much, and tears down, and fights against. he’s a traitor, and should be sent to North Korea.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:48 pm#40: Well, you’re perfectly free to throw away your life by surrendering to the muslim hordes and die thinking of the founding fathers, but please don’t drag the rest of us with you.
Comment by Frank M Jake — December 19, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
Whatever Jake. Am I still on your ignore list?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:50 pmit’s hardly shocking. frank has shown himself to be a coward and a traitor from his first post. what’s shocking is that he’s syill allowed to live in a country he hates so much, and tears down, and fights against. he’s a traitor, and should be sent to North Korea.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 19, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
Agreed, but sadly there are way too many Franks in this country who willingly allow the government to abuse them and others in the name of security.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:51 pmWell almost everyone, there are a handful that still believe in the oath of office they took, to uphold and defend the Constitution. That said, the vast majority need to be sent home. I will be working locally to make sure that happens.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:53 pmFrank is Jake? huh.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:54 pmBut the ‘tool’ is known to be useless in gathering useful information. As such, it is simply torture for no good reason. This is why is was outlawed in the Geneva Conventions.
Comment by Nature Rules — December 19, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
Exactly. Torture is a great way to get innocent people to say whatever the interrogator wants to hear. How does that help any investigation?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:56 pmFrank, you need a Hitler in your life to keep you safe and cozy.
Didn’t work out for millions of Jews, not to mention millions of Germans, Allied troops, but whatever, you’re your own source.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:57 pmToo bad the DOJ office is not a separate system obliged to no one. Perhaps then they could do the job of auditing and keeping everyone honest. Oh wait thats the way it used to be isn’t it?
December 19th, 2007 at 12:57 pmI suspected Frank as Jake along time ago, the stupidity was very familiar.
You can’t fix stupid.
Buck Fush
December 19th, 2007 at 12:59 pmwhat’s shocking is that he’s still allowed to live in a country he hates so much, and tears down, and fights against. he’s a traitor, and should be sent to North Korea.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 19, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
That’s not shocking - it’s enshrined in the Constitution he despises so much. He’s allowed to hate this country as much as he wants - that’s his right.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:06 pmI think Hermann Göring said it most eloquently about these types of people…
“Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. …Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.â€
It appears that some don’t want to learn from history or are just so afraid due to the fear mongers they are willing to give up their freedom, and in most cases, they always regret their lack of courage in the end.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:07 pmThe republicans never could understand what “don’t ask don’t tell” ment. And now they don’t understand what torture means. Maybe they should ask a service man or woman to help them out.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:09 pmIt’s amasing that people interviewing for jobs requiring a top-grade legal acumen need to wait to be told what their opinions are on legal matters before they can express them…..
Cheers,
December 19th, 2007 at 1:15 pmFrank’s fear comes from believing there are “hordes” of people wanting to kill Americans. History has proven that it only takes a few to control the masses using fear, ignorance and poverty. The few want power and personal gain and they are here in American as well as other countries.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:18 pmLooks like “Southern Man” is trying to revive the Dolchschtosslegende, like the good little German that he is.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:18 pmYou help the enemy and you don’t even realize it. What a sick and pathetic American you are!
Comment by Southern Man
We have been talking about you this way for a long time. I know you have confidence issues, but please don’t be so hard on yourself. As soon as you find your spine - and read the Constitution - it should be clearer to you.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:19 pmA sixty year old LTC? In my time, which was the VietNam era, if you didn’t make full bird by the time you were 45, you were toast.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:22 pmSounds fishy that an LTC, who served in Nam, was sixty years old would still be in the service. They promote or retire…
Stop calling yourself a patriot! You are a traitor that hates his country and what it stands for. It’s all about your hatred for one man that drives you, and in turn hurts our troops. You help the enemy and you don’t even realize it. What a sick and pathetic American you are!
Comment by Southern Man — December 19, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
i’m tired of brainwashed professional killers masquerading as patriots, I’m tired of pussy tools like southern pansy destroying the Constitution so they can support treason, and I’m tired of the lies of the right, day in, day out. I’m tired of a tool like the Lt. Col. conveniently making things up that never happened, and I’m tired of his type claiming that anyone can win an illegal, immoral, unjustifiable war. I’m tired of the whining of losers, and the capitualation of antiAmerican cowards like frank m, SM and the rest of the fascist-enabling morons who have never stopped for a moment to think of the end result of their fever dreams: we become our enemy, thus destroying our very foundations. we lost Viet Nam because we were wrong, and we have lost Iraq for the same reason. We were wrong to engage in genocidal behavior, we were wrong to weaken our military to the point that we now use hired mercenaries and suspend the laws for them, we were wrong to let Bushco steal the government. So, whiny little baby southern traitor, stick it, and send your poor, crying Lt. Col. back to where he can give the orders to slaughter another family whose crime was being born there. you are disgusting.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:23 pmMostly, I’m tired that the people of this great nation didn’t learn from history that there is no substitute for victory.
Comment by Southern Man — December 19, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
I’m still waiting for someone to define what “victory” means in a multifactional civil war like the one we started in Iraq. I expect to keep waiting for a long time.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:23 pmTurns out that the good LTC did in fact, serve as stated.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:25 pmHe’s also running for office, in Minnesota, and the I’m tired letter was a political stunt.
#14: “what has happened to integrity in this countryâ€. It’s not profitable.
Comment by Frank M — December 19, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
So, Frank, when are you going to sell your daughter for a sex slave? I’m sure you’d make a profit on that.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:25 pmwaiting for someone to define what “victory†means in a multifactional civil war like the one we started in Iraq. = kill all the brown people.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:25 pmI’m tired of neocon apologists trotting out “I’m tired” letters from washed up lifers.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:26 pm#75, apparently “victory” means to kill until people stop attacking us. And, since most of them are attacking us because we’re occupying their country, “victory” will only happen after we’ve committed genocide against a people who never attacked us anyway.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:27 pmJust for those who are interested in the letter Southern Man(less) posted:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/repya.asp
Yes, it is a true letter (from 2005), written by a Republican running for office in Minnesota, thus the resurgent.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:27 pmfigures the Lt. Col. is a mere slimebag repuke pol. what a crybaby. give him a little stroke, sm, he feels bad.
pansies.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:27 pmOpps, sorry RUCerious, you beat me to it.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:28 pmBut yes, it is a political stunt, none the less.
Does it ever get old? Calling people Germans or Nazis when the comparissons are non existent? We sure are loading up those trains and firing up those ovens. Fools!
Comment by Southern Man — December 19, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
one step at a time, little pansy. killing families is a good start, don’t you think?
December 19th, 2007 at 1:28 pmDoes it ever get old? Calling people Germans or Nazis when the comparissons are non existent?
Really? There’s no comparison between the manipulative authoritarian lies of the Dolchstosslegende and your bogus letter? (hint - there was no spitting on vets after ‘Nam, and the only people protesting military funerals are Fred Phelps’ monkeys)
December 19th, 2007 at 1:28 pmOh, and Frank…? Your shoes are full of urine.
You might want to think about changing them, OK?
December 19th, 2007 at 1:30 pm#75 I agree ! We never hear what victory is it the troops have not done. A Democratic government is not the military’s duty. Bush and supporters will not be happy until all of Middle East is without water, electricity and oil is controled by Halliburton. Maybe that is the victory the war mongers are meaning.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:30 pm#81 #75, apparently “victory†means to kill until people stop attacking us.
in Iraq, I mean, since that’s the theater whose “victory” Southern Man demands.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:31 pmI guess rendering Canadian citizens to be tortured in Syria isn’t exactly like laoding uyp the trains and starting the ovens, right, southern sucker? I suppose that the fact that the government is arguing over torture isn’t a giant step in the direction of nazism, is it?
You are a blind, unpatriotic tool. thank Bushie-boy for 9/11 next time you’re on your knees in front of him.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:32 pmDoes it ever get old? Calling people Germans or Nazis when the comparissons are non existent?
Comment by Southern Man(less) — December 19, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
But yet he precedes with this little gem:
Stop calling yourself a patriot! You are a traitor that hates his country and what it stands for. It’s all about your hatred for one man that drives you, and in turn hurts our troops. You help the enemy and you don’t even realize it. What a sick and pathetic American you are!
Comment by Southern Man(less) — December 19, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
so I ask you, Southern Man(less), does it ever get old calling people anti-American and traitors when the comparisons are non existent?
December 19th, 2007 at 1:32 pmYep, we sure banning together to burn the American flag, after we roll it with a bunch of Jamaica Gold, and smoke it!
Comment by PeterW — December 19, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
Either that or he is proving the third and eleventh points of Fascism:
The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous†acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.†Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
In either case, they do not grasp the simplistic facts, there is never a victor in a Guerrilla war, never has been, never will be, because like any insurgency, it is part and parcel of a continuum. We find ourselves involved in the middle on one now in Iraq and some folks here find it more convenient to question someone else’s patriotism, or their love of country. They conveniently forget the words of one of the greatest Americans, “May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion” (–Dwight D. Eisenhower). Like you said, PeterW, they are too busy trying to be “the good little German”.
How sad for our country, talk about not learning from the past!
December 19th, 2007 at 1:35 pmYou are a traitor that hates his country and what it stands for. It’s all about your hatred for one man that drives you, and in turn hurts our troops.
So, SM, what does America stand for? Because I was under the impression that it stood for the rule of law, the rights of the people over the powerful, and all those lofty ideals espoused by the Founding Fathers. And I’m pretty sure I love those ideals.
I expect to you, America is a tribe that stands for clobbering and humiliating other tribes to primal and crude shouts of “U! S! A!” by howling drawling primates in the gallery, and you’ll forgive me, I hope, if I don’t get behind that vision.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:35 pmI took Lefty Patriot as a name just to piss you off, SM. It’s actually redundant, since any lefty is by definition a patriot, while righties are rushing to destroy our country as fast as they can legalize torture and presidential secrecy. I’m glad it’s had it’s desired effect. Too bad you didn’t think more carefully about your nym; it paints you as an ignorant redneck, and your posts confirm it.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:36 pmA sixty year old LTC? In my time, which was the VietNam era, if you didn’t make full bird by the time you were 45, you were toast.
Sounds fishy that an LTC, who served in Nam, was sixty years old would still be in the service. They promote or retire…
Comment by RUCerious — December 19, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
The lefty desperately resorts to playing the superficial rank game.
The promotion rate to colonel is about 36% on average in the military. Perhaps this man was previously retired and recalled to active duty, Perhaps he was in the active reserves and sent to duty. An active Lt. Col. can serve about 28 years in the military; otherwise s/he can be recalled until age 60.
Lt. Col. is a sound officer grade to attain. Care to retract your non-sensical attack?
December 19th, 2007 at 1:36 pmAs I said, legal or illegal - I don’t care. We can’t fight the war with our hands tied behind our back.
Comment by Frank M
Here’s the problem with that. See, the funny thing about law is that you (meaning your bloodthirsty leaders and you cowards who blindly follow them) don’t get to decide when it’s OK to break the law. That’s why we have laws.
Now, if you want to just go ahead and admit that you (meaning your bloodthirsty leaders and you cowards who blindly follow them) wish to follow a life of crime, then please just get it out in the open, so we can have our law enforcement hunt you down and lock up the whole gang.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:36 pmGet your facts right.
Comment by Southern Man — December 19, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
aren’t you ashamed to be lying on your uncle’s behalf?
December 19th, 2007 at 1:37 pmTell that to my uncle: He got off a bus in DC and was called every name in the book when he wore his uniform. And he was also SPIT ON numerous times.
I’m calling you (and your uncle) a liar. The sociologist Jerry Lembecke researched this in great detail and has found only two contemporary first-hand accounts of this. The tales don’t even emerge until the ’80s.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:37 pmLt. Col. is a sound officer grade to attain. Care to retract your non-sensical attack?
Comment by tombaked — December 19, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
Care to prove that this clown isn’t just another whiney republican politician trading on his lackluster military career?
December 19th, 2007 at 1:38 pmI’m sorry Senator, but due to the destruction of the waterboarding tapes, there simply isn’t sufficient evidence for me to conclude whether waterboarding is torture or not.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:39 pm“Tell that to my uncle: He got off a bus in DC and was called every name in the book when he wore his uniform. And he was also SPIT ON numerous times.”
sounds like he had a busdriver’s uniform on, and was late to the gate.
yeah, that is more likely.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:41 pmCare to prove that this clown isn’t just another whiney republican politician trading on his lackluster military career?
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 19, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
Prove ‘lacklustre military career’
December 19th, 2007 at 1:42 pmyeah, that is more likely.
Comment by Lefty Patriot — December 19, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
You’re making a complete ass out of yourself. Thanks for playing.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:43 pmWhen people stop acting like the Germans did in the 1930’s to 1945 or stop acting like the Nazis, then the reference will no longer be valid. Until then, it is what it is, the good little Germans did not speak up and their country along with all of Europe and parts of North Africa paid the price and a heavy price, millions of innocent women, children, and old people dead. Google “Martin Niemöller”.
By the way, comparissons is spelled comparisons.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:43 pmAnd thank Bill Clinton for 9/11.
Really? He was in office in August 2001 to ignore the Presidential Daily Briefing? He was in office from Jan 2001 to ignore the plan Clarke came up with for addressing Al Queda? He was the one ignoring Clarke’s “hair on fire” warnings in summer 2001?
Who knew?
December 19th, 2007 at 1:43 pmTell that to my uncle: He got off a bus in DC and was called every name in the book when he wore his uniform. And he was also SPIT ON numerous times.
Comment by Southern Man
Probably had nothing to do with the uniform and more to do with his being an a$$hole like you?!
December 19th, 2007 at 1:44 pmYou’re making a complete ass out of yourself. Thanks for playing.
Comment by tombaked — December 19, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
you’re the expert.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:44 pmAnd thank Bill Clinton for 9/11. You might get the chance to take it in the ass one more time from him.
Comment by Southern Man — December 19, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
so Bill Clinton was pres on 9/11, in your world. now I see the problem; you’re profoundly retarded. now i understand your idiotic posts and your lack of logic.
so sorry. i didn’t intend to make fun.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:46 pmStop calling yourself a patriot! You are a traitor that hates his country and what it stands for. It’s all about your hatred for one man that drives you, and in turn hurts our troops. You help the enemy and you don’t even realize it. What a sick and pathetic American you are!
Comment by Southern Man
George W. Bush is not “our trooops”.
George W. Bush is not our country.
It is not healthy to worship your politcal leaders.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:46 pm“Deputy AG Nominee: Waterboarding Is ‘Repugnant,’ But Can’t Say Whether It’s Torture”
LOL! And Filip is a judge????
Bottomline is this. Filip is a loyal Bushie, youngest judge to be appointed, mentored by the man he worked for Judge Scalia. Filip is also buddies with Solicitor General Paul Clement who also worked for Scalia once a upon a time. Both young bucks wormed their way to success. Memo to the Senate Committee: Don’t appoint this one to the #2 DOJ position.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:46 pmI’m guessing that if SM’s uncle actually makes these claims at all, he didn’t start making them until the ’80s when the spitting myth appeared out of nowhere.
In the real world, Vietnam Vets were an active part of the anti-war movement, as they are with the Iraq War.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:47 pmI used to think you took it in the ass. Now I realize you take it both ways. And thank Bill Clinton for 9/11. You might get the chance to take it in the ass one more time from him.
Comment by Southern Man(less) — December 19, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
and there you have it, folks. The great master debater at work. Look at how (s)he is able to present the opposing view point with facts and intelligence, and avoid blatant ad hominem attacks.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:48 pmPriceless!
Stop calling yourself a patriot! You are a traitor that hates his country and what it stands for. It’s all about your hatred for one man that drives you, and in turn hurts our troops. You help the enemy and you don’t even realize it. What a sick and pathetic American you are!
Comment by Southern Man
Hey, I don’t brag about being brainwashed by a coke-addled dry-drunk, S&M. Wipe the splooge from your face and read the Constitution instead of proving the depth of your antiAmericanism and ignorance of the law with every post you puke up.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:49 pm“There was no spitting on Vets after Namâ€. Tell that to my uncle: He got off a bus in DC and was called every name in the book when he wore his uniform. And he was also SPIT ON numerous times. The hippies in DC weren’t very peaceful or respectful to vets returning home. Get your facts right.
Comment by Southern Man — December 19, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
This is how we KNOW you’re a PROFESSIONAL LIAR. These events are URBAN LEGENDS - they never happened, just like COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATISM and PATRIOTIC REPUBLICAN - these DON’T EXIST! You aren’t PATRIOTIC, you’re NATIONALISTIC (just like your NAZI PROGENITORS).
What a ‘tard!!! ROTFL!!
December 19th, 2007 at 1:52 pm#113 AND STILL ARE AN ACTIVE PART OF ANTI WAR . Real soldiers that did the actual fighting would never want to put others through that horror. Seems like the hawks are ones who have never seen a front line.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:54 pmand avoid blatant ad hominem attacks.
Priceless!
Comment by DRxJ — December 19, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
It’s hard to blame the rightards, as they are getting royally screwed by their demi-gods. can’t win a war against one of the poorest countries on earth, couldn’t defeat the pajama-clad Vietnamese, can’t even outlaw abortion or Social Security. Pretty pathetic, that’s why they idolize the Nazis, who at least got things done. It’s easy to see why they go off the rails at the slightest provocation, since they are, deep-down, well aware of their reason, and very confused as to how they got roped into supporting torture, mass-murder, fundamentalism, fascism, and all the other things they were raised to believe were what America was against. Still, as the party of personal responsibility, they should be able to take the bad news without falling apart. I suppose if they had any courage and fortitude, they would have enlisted by now.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:54 pmA note: any rightwing troll not posting from Iraq or Afghanistan has no standing. Any rightwing troll posting from the front will get a fair haring, and a lot more respect then the trolls here show the Constitution.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:57 pmSouthernman - The troops have done everything that was asked of them. Sent in with no body armour, inadequate HumVee’s, lack of even basics. Wounded were brought home and then forgotten because this President privatized their help. Caskets were not allowed to be seen, not for privacy, but to not be counted.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:00 pmIs this the administration you want to revere?
Torture, Treason and Tyranny: that describes the Bush regime to a “T”…
December 19th, 2007 at 2:01 pmOh gosh, I see my troll-stalker is here too. (message for you, stalker: i’m all up in your head now, and i’m very happy about it)
OT- wise; shame on the Cheerleader Prince for putting his country in the shameful position of debating this issue. No red-blooded American Patriot President would ever have dared do so - only someone with a sense of Monarchical Entitlement ever could or would.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:01 pmSouthernman re: your uncle that was spat on, did he give the spitter a bloody mouth? I hope so, even if there has never been proof that a vet was actually spat on.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:03 pmLt. Col. is a sound officer grade to attain. Care to retract your non-sensical attack?
Comment by tombaked — December 19, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
No way. If you did your research, yes, this officer left active duty, went into the reserves, came back to active duty, and still never got promoted. A washed up lifer. I’ll stick to that.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:13 pmIn the real world, Vietnam Vets were an active part of the anti-war movement, as they are with the Iraq War.
Comment by PeterW — December 19, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
Not to bolster the trolls argument, but I was shunned by my former HS friends when I got back, even though I was active in the local anti war movement.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:15 pmPerhaps it had to do with the eleven foot tall chip on my shoulder…
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
- Benjamin Franklin
Frank, you would do well to heed those words…
December 19th, 2007 at 2:24 pmFrank, you would do well to heed those words…
Comment by ucsbclassics53
Sorry but Frank M Laden is as Anti-U.S. as they come.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:34 pmNo way. If you did your research, yes, this officer left active duty, went into the reserves, came back to active duty, and still never got promoted. A washed up lifer. I’ll stick to that.
Comment by RUCerious — December 19, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
There’s that love of the military.
I must repeat, that’s because only 36% of them get promoted. Rank over service, is that what you’re arguing? Because all that service at the ranks of 2Lt/1Lt/Capt/Maj/Lt. Col. makes him washed up, I suppose.
And if you had the archives of tp.org in mind, you’d know that even those who make flag rank get bashed pretty hard (Read: David “Betrayus”).
Again, care to retract your posting?
December 19th, 2007 at 2:53 pmSo true, as stated by many of the great military leaders through out history…
“I have known war as few men now living know it. It’s very destructiveness on both friend and foe has rendered it useless as a means of settling international disputes.” - Douglas MacArthur
“I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity.” - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Only an immoral chickenhawk would send young men and women to a needless death.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:55 pm128 - hi there little troll-stalker. thanks for your support.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:59 pmOnly an immoral chickenhawk would send young men and women to a needless death.
Comment by Citizen_of_Earth — December 19, 2007
I just watched a great movie last night, “Flags of our Fathers”. Horrific and wonderful at the same time. If memory doesn’t fail me, the movie starts out with a veteran commenting:
“Everyone knows about war, especially the jack-asses that never served!”
December 19th, 2007 at 3:23 pmAgain, care to retract your posting?
Comment by tombaked — December 19, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
No need, the posting is accurate, as Betrayus is perfect. Why do you hate America?
December 19th, 2007 at 3:24 pmSenator, I believe water-boarding is a horrible, evil, painful, ineffective, inhuman practice - but it isn’t torture.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:45 pmThere’s that love of the military.
No, I served in the military for just shy of three years, so I feel comfortable commenting on my own observations.
How bout you? Service dates? Theaters? Enlighten us.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:03 pmThe U.S. Military Code of Justice AND the Geneva Conventions both say that waterboarding is torture and both say it is illegal!! The Bush Admin. knows this, which is why they are attempting to blur the lines, and imply that its just not clear whether its torture or not. This is just another case of them manufacturing their own reality.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:10 pmIt depends on what your definition of THE LAW is, like a murder defendant trying to convince a judge that “we should redefine murder”.
THROW THE BOOK AT THESE CRIMINAL A$$HOLES ALREADY.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:26 pmHey if waterboarding is good interrogation technique, why not use it on US citizens. It would make it much easier for police to get confessions if they were allowed to interrogate people suspected of crimes. If someone is suspected of a murder or robbery why not just take to the police station and waterboard them. No need for a trial, not need for them to have lawyers or rights, no need for further evidence. Thats what they are doing on so called “war prisoners”. If it works and is good in that case why not other cases? Or are basic human rights only good for american citizens?
December 21st, 2007 at 11:41 am