EPA saving docs tied to blocking California emissions law.
By on Dec 27th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
EPA saving docs tied to blocking California emissions law.
The Environmental Protection Agency “signaled” today that “it is prepared to comply with a congressional request for all documents — including communications with the White House — concerning its decision to block California from imposing limits on greenhouse gases.” In a memo, “the EPA’s general counsel directed agency employees” to “preserve and produce all documents related to the decision including any opposing views and communications between senior EPA officials and the White House, including Vice President Dick Cheney’s office.” Before EPA administrator Stephen L. Johnson decided to deny California the right to regulate greenhouse gases from vehicles, Cheney met repeatedly with auto industry executives.
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Thats just great. another good one by vice president President Cheney!
December 27th, 2007 at 6:59 pmUS Corn Boom Threatens Sea Life: Pesticide Runoff Continues To Pollute Gulf
JEFFERSON, Iowa – Because of rising demand for ethanol, American farmers are growing more corn than at any time since the Depression. And sea life in the Gulf of Mexico is paying the price.
The nation’s corn crop is fertilized with millions of pounds of nitrogen-based fertilizer. And when that nitrogen runs off fields in Corn Belt states, it makes its way to the Mississippi River and eventually pours into the Gulf, where it contributes to a growing “dead zone†– a 7,900-square-mile patch so depleted of oxygen that fish, crabs, and shrimp suffocate.
…With demand for corn booming, some researchers fear the dead zone will expand rapidly, with devastating consequences.
“We might be coming close to a tipping point,†said Matt Rota, director of the water resources program for the New Orleans-based Gulf Restoration Network, an environmental group. “The ecosystem might change or collapse as opposed to being just impacted.â€
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/12/18/us_corn_boom_threatens_sea_life/
December 27th, 2007 at 7:01 pmHEY TP… ARE YOU GOING TO POST THIS RETRACTION?
http://themedium.blogs.nytimes.com/ 2007/ 12/ 26/ editors-note-the-ron-paul-vid-lash/
Editors’ Note: The Ron Paul Vid-Lash
By The New York Times
A post in The Medium that appeared on Monday about the Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul and his purported adoption by white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups contained several errors. Stormfront, which describes itself as a “white nationalist†Internet community, did not give money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign; according to Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Paul’s campaign, it was Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, who donated $500 to Paul. The original post also repeated a string of assertions by Bill White, the commander of the American National Socialist Workers Party, including the allegation that Paul meets regularly “with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review and others†at a restaurant in Arlington, Va. Paul never attended these dinners, according to Benton, who also says that Paul has never knowingly met Bill White. Norman Singleton, a congressional aide in Paul’s office, says that he met Bill White at a dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton expressed his indignation at the views espoused by White to the organizer of the dinner. The original post should not have been published with these unverified assertions and without any response from Paul.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:07 pmTo heck with the gas guzzlers.
I’m moving to an area on this planet where I can drive on of these.
Aircar
December 27th, 2007 at 7:08 pmback on topic: Maybe this will show the deceit this admin seems to love.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:11 pmImpeach this Cheney buffoon now! How much more evidence do we need to gather on this criminal? It’s sickening that he remains in power. It’s a total aberration of our constitution at this point for a criminal the likes of him (and his sidekick Dumbo) to still sit in public office.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:11 pmWhy is it that Darth is like a two day old turd sitting in a cesspool?
December 27th, 2007 at 7:13 pmThis guy is at the bottom of everything that’s rancid and rotten in this country right now. For the security of our country, he either needs to step down immediately or be removed from office by impeachment. Maybe his ticker will start acting up again soon so he can slime his way out instead?
My question is when will modern conservatives drop this absurd pretense that they are champions of “states’ rights?”
December 27th, 2007 at 7:15 pmIf CA gets their way on this requirement, which I know no auto company can meet in such a short time frame, I hope that CA gets beat by the auto companies again, as they did with the previous attempts to thwart them.
If not, I hope automakers sell their cars to 3rd party conversion companies, who then mark them up an exhorbitant amount, hurting the CA economy.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:21 pmIf not, I hope automakers sell their cars to 3rd party conversion companies, who then mark them up an exhorbitant amount, hurting the CA economy.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 7:21 pm
after that, you can cry into your hankie, Jason Hitler, you idiot. why do you hate American law?
December 27th, 2007 at 7:23 pmI can see Conyers shaking his index finger now . . ‘bad boy, dickey, bad boy’.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:24 pmFollowed closely by Nancy telling her man how impeachment ‘just ain’t on my table, dick . . no worries my good friend . . now who you gonna bomb next?’
Why does Hendler hate Arnold?
December 27th, 2007 at 7:29 pmMy question is when will modern conservatives drop this absurd pretense that they are champions of “states’ rights?â€
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper — December 27, 2007 @ 7:15 pm
Immediately after which, Jason Hendler launches into his anti-states rights diatribe.
Good call.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:34 pmComment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 7:21 pm
JUST CAN’T STOP HATING AMERICAN CAN YA A$$HOLE!!!
December 27th, 2007 at 7:43 pmY’all,
Jacka$$ Moron Hitler gradumauwated from a big a$$ Ivy League skool. Dat’s rite. Stanford!!! He claims Stanford is Ivy League!!! What A Fool!!!
Hahahahahahahhahahaaaahahahahahgggagagaaaaagggagagaga gag!
Just ask the moron yourself!!!!!
He’s also a big a$$ racist!!
December 27th, 2007 at 7:48 pmI’m guessing Jason feels a woman’s right to choose an abortion should be a state issue and not for the federal government.
The other thing is that when you mess with the world’s seventh largest economy, you mess with the entire country’s economy. We saw the results of this early in Bush’s administration when his cronies at Enron created a phony energy crisis in California. Months later, the economy started going south and Bush supporters, of course, blamed Clinton.
But, we shouldn’t expect anything even close to logic or intelligence from Jason. He’s already shown clearly today on another discussion that he is a sociopath who cheers the death of 3900 American soldiers. We also know that he THINKS Jesus is his guy while living his life in a way Jesus would most definitely condemn. The guy’s just nuts; maybe he’s good for laughs at times, but really, we should all be concerned that there are Americans who share what he thinks are his values.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:52 pmHendler’s logic is as usual suspect. The only car companies this could hurt, are American car companies. Most other companies around the world, already have to deal with much more stringent measures. Ever wonder why you can buy engines with 30,000 miles on them, straight from Japan? At any rate, California will be fine, what scares people like Hendler, is what Cali does, so does the rest of the country.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:55 pmY’all,
Jacka$$ Moron Hitler gradumauwated from a big a$$ Ivy League skool. Dat’s rite. Stanford!!! He claims Stanford is Ivy League!!! What A Fool!!!
Hahahahahahahhahahaaaahahahahahgggagagaaaaagggagagaga gag!
Just ask the moron yourself!!!!!
He’s also a big a$$ racist!!
Comment by dixie blood
Actually I think that was Jake. Or, is this jason jerk just Jake in a new reincarnation? Makes sense since he is about as black-hearted and evil as Jake was.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:55 pmAt any rate, California will be fine, what scares people like Hendler, is what Cali does, so does the rest of the country.
Comment by Krazny
Besides, if California wants to take that chance, it’s up to them, isn’t it?
The Republiscums are for State’s rights only when it suits their purpose. On that subject they are as hypocritical as they are on many other subjects.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:57 pmHilarious, bullseye rant…“Pelosi, YOU NEED TO GO!”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×2534356
December 27th, 2007 at 8:05 pm#18, bilbo,
Glad you said that, because that post sure didn’t come across like dixie blood.
As for states rights, the federal government does regulate interstate commerce and other national standards, so they do have an interest in this issue. On the one hand, you want the liberty to do your own thing, but then scream bloody murder when your plan crashes and demand a bail-out.
It is clear to me that CA may just, as another poster mentioned, cut their own throats, with this legislation. As described on other websites, tech geeks in CA are hoping to create a captive market to fleece, but unfortunately for them, Mexico is already ramping up a vehicle conversion market faster than lazy pot smoking CA tech geeks can keep pace with. Sadly, CA tech geeks recognized the trend too late, and only Tesla and Fisker have products that might succeed, before the major auto makers catch up.
December 27th, 2007 at 8:18 pmOn the one hand, you want the liberty to do your own thing, but then scream bloody murder when your plan crashes and demand a bail-out.
It is clear to me that CA may just, as another poster mentioned, cut their own throats, with this legislation. As described on other websites, tech geeks in CA are hoping to create a captive market to fleece, but unfortunately for them, Mexico is already ramping up a vehicle conversion market faster than lazy pot smoking CA tech geeks can keep pace with. Sadly, CA tech geeks recognized the trend too late, and only Tesla and Fisker have products that might succeed, before the major auto makers catch up.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
Jason Hitler, it’s always your side that goes looking for the welfare when things go badly. Always. Your ignorance of how this country works paints you as a traitor. Your blaming of the California “geeks” as responsible while not pointing out the greed and laziness of the republican-controlled Detroit center of auto manufacturing proves that you are nothing but a tool and a liar, trying to rescue your ignorant, lazy, greedy, sociopathic rightwingers from extinction. too late.
December 27th, 2007 at 8:26 pmJason: Don’t worry about Californians and their cars – they’re way ahead of the curve and the majority of them buy foreign cars anyway. So what’s your point?
December 27th, 2007 at 8:28 pm“It is clear to me that CA may just, as another poster mentioned, cut their own throats, with this legislation. As described on other websites, tech geeks in CA are hoping to create a captive market to fleece, but unfortunately for them, Mexico is already ramping up a vehicle conversion market faster than lazy pot smoking CA tech geeks can keep pace with. Sadly, CA tech geeks recognized the trend too late, and only Tesla and Fisker have products that might succeed, before the major auto makers catch up.”
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Now if you can just link “tech geeks” to what the state is attempting to do, you might have a case. But I don’t see how tech geeks = the entire state of california. They don’t have that much power to influence legislation, especially with a republican governor at the helm.
December 27th, 2007 at 8:29 pmCheney and his secret deals with US auto makers is just like Bush and his defacto immunity deals with the telecons. One con artist making promises to the greed factor in another! They all need to go. Americans will repudiate and reject these greedy US auto manufacturers and they will sink to the bottom of Bush/Cheney’s cess pool.
December 27th, 2007 at 8:30 pmJust checking in to see if it’s possible to have intellectual discourse with each other without the annoying interference by an imbecile troll. Jason Hitler’s on the thread which means “moronic nonsense” for the rest of the night. Night TP buddies! Sweet dreams!
December 27th, 2007 at 8:32 pmBush’s declared “war on terror” will pay negative dividends indefinitely. His undeclared “war on sci/tech” may prove even more damaging in the long term.
Personally, I’ll choose a single “tech geek” over every last pathetic little hypocrite waiting for the “rapture bus”. “Tech geeks”, you see, spend their lives finding real solutions to real problems. They don’t wait for hypothetical “supreme beings” to find better ways to do things.
Here’s a news flash: There’s nothing to suggest that God, or any other deity, is going to bail us out before the Earth becomes hostile to continued human existence. We need to reduce the poisons pumped into the environment. Period!
Any other conclusion, being based on greed and fallacy, is unworthy of debate. “If” and “when” are no longer part of the discussion. The only viable questions are about “what” and “how”.
“What can we do”, to reduce pollution across the board, and “how much damage can we avoid”, through conservation and innovation. Failure to act is inexcusable, and, those who refuse to accept that fact deserve to live their short lives in a toxic waste dump.
December 27th, 2007 at 8:58 pmActually I think that was Jake. Or, is this jason jerk just Jake in a new reincarnation? Makes sense since he is about as black-hearted and evil as Jake was.
Comment by bilbobaggins — December 27, 2007 @ 7:55 pm
Wrong, DEAD WRONG!!
JackASS knows it and here is where he tried to get to you:
#18, bilbo,
Glad you said that, because that post sure didn’t come across like dixie blood.
JackA$$ this is EXACTLY DIXIE BLOOD AND I CAN PUT UP THE LINKS AND POST FROM YOUR MORONIC CLAIMS AND RACISM AGAIN!!! WANT ‘DAT?
LET ME KNOW…WANNA GO THERE STUPID???
YES, IT’S ME DIXIE BLOOD!! THE REAL ONE!! THAT KNOWS YOUR RACIST A$$!!
Bilbo, Ignore this racist, moronic, troll!!!!
December 27th, 2007 at 9:10 pmHere’s an excerpt from an article a friend emailed to me:
Did you ever notice that we have no holidays in which we revere history’s true – in the sense of “backed up with evidence†– miracle-workers, those hard-working saviors we call “scientistsâ€?
Think about it: scientists, through the “miracle†of human reason, have eradicated diseases for literally billions of people through medicine, created light and warmth in winter through electricity, bread for the hungry through improved agriculture, knowledge of “the heavens†through astronomy, knowledge of creation and generation through biology and genetics. They’ve literally given man the “miraculous†power to fly around the earth and to the stars; to speak face-to-face from opposite ends of the earth (and from the moon); they’re close to creating life itself, and have already created a doubled average lifespan for all of us in a mere century.
Why we don’t give thanks at Temples of Science, and donate our tithes there to promote more Good Works, is a question for future historians – if our future is not cut short by nuclear- or bioweapon-armed religious fanatics in the name of one authoritarian book or another (and it’s funny that Buddhists, of all world religions I’m aware of, are the only ones not to claim knowledge of any god at all, and also the only ones not to be engaged in violence in the name of their creed). Why we take our children to hospitals when they’re sick – we used to take them to priests – but turn around and attack the teachings of science in our schools….this saddens and frustrates me to no end.
Where did we go wrong?
December 27th, 2007 at 9:13 pmWhere did we go wrong?
Comment by pete — December 27, 2007 @ 9:13 pm
That’s easy!
Science is the enemy of every religion on Earth. It get’s in the way of superstition. A superstition that is used to control people. If you can’t control people they might learn shjt, without a god, and be good anyway!
Proving you don’t need a god to be good!!
December 27th, 2007 at 9:19 pmOn the one hand, you want the liberty to do your own thing, but then scream bloody murder when your plan crashes and demand a bail-out -JMH
Sounds your talking about the ‘free-market’ you rail for.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:23 pmJust checking in to see if it’s possible to have intellectual discourse with each other without the annoying interference by an imbecile troll. Jason Hitler’s on the thread which means “moronic nonsense†for the rest of the night. Night TP buddies! Sweet dreams!
Comment by Veritas — December 27, 2007 @ 8:32 pm
Good idea! Jacka$$ Moron Hitler is a waste of time and space!!
December 27th, 2007 at 9:29 pm..once upon a time, a troll made an stupid statement,and no one responded….you can plainly see the rise trolls got out of this,they think they win when this happens…….as for the EPA keeping all documents, what about whispers in the ear,and a slip of cash in hand,did they document that too?
December 27th, 2007 at 9:35 pmActually I think that was Jake. Or, is this jason jerk just Jake in a new reincarnation? Makes sense since he is about as black-hearted and evil as Jake was.
Comment by bilbobaggins — December 27, 2007 @ 7:55 pm
No Jason in addition to Jake claims to have graduated from Stanford. But he believes it is an Ivy League school and apparently doesn’t realize it’s located in California.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:47 pmSadly, CA tech geeks recognized the trend too late, and only Tesla and Fisker have products that might succeed, before the major auto makers catch up.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
What you fail to understand because obviously you’ve never actually been to California is that it is a state that believes in environmentalism and protecting the planet. Stanford graduate my ass.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:49 pmBilbo, Ignore this racist, moronic, troll!!!!
Comment by dixie blood — December 27, 2007 @ 9:10 pm
Thanks dixie blood for pointing out Hendler’s pandering. Because of his gleeful welcoming of the news of 3,900 dead American soldiers he is dead to most of us here and we hope he rots in whatever personal hell he resides in.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:53 pmThe last three years, California has seen more people move to other states than moved into the state from elsewhere in the U.S., including a net loss to other states of 89,000 last year.
“But that’s being more than counterbalanced by immigration from abroad,” Heim said.
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7763480?nclick_check=1
The danger California faces is that people with money will move out. California’s tax structure is highly progressive; the rich pay most of the taxes.
The deficit problems will continue, and policies like this will raise the cost of doing business.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:22 pm#9
How are these standards at all impossible? Are you purporting that the chinese communists are more inventive than the American capitalists?
It’s not at all impossible. It’s just not as profitable to those automakers.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:32 pmScience is the enemy of every religion on Earth. It get’s in the way of superstition. A superstition that is used to control people. If you can’t control people they might learn shjt, without a god, and be good anyway!
Comment by dixie blood — December 27, 2007 @ 9:19 pm
True. But, like most “easy answers” it’s incomplete. Human history is full of evidence for the cyclical nature of Belief. There have been many “ages of reason” followed by “dark ages” whether long or short.
I’m old enough to remember watching Man land on the Moon. I grew up with the last generation of Americans to live with the ravages of Polio. And, I witnessed the birth of the “Religious Right”.
I clearly remember the first time I heard about Jerry Falwell. I remember thinking, “Well, we won’t have to put up with this irrational, offensive, beast for long”. Boy was I wrong!
No. There is something deeper, and more insidious, than superstition and it’s use as a tool by the unscrupulous. There is something deep in the human makeup which makes it necessary to elevate ourselves above all others. Even to the point where it’s not enough for one to succeed, unless all others fail. A legacy of our animalistic past? A flaw brought on by our separating ourselves from the natural processes which rule life on our planet? I don’t know.
But, I can tell you that something incredibly strong has arrayed itself against the reason which was prevalent in the 60’s; when one could confidently speak of the demise of superstition. Charismatic leaders, predatory clergy, and intellectual laziness have played their parts. But, all fall short of explaining how people can be convinced to “ignore their lying eyes” and “Believe” that which is, at face value, unbelievable. And irrelevant.
Until we find out what that mechanism is we are doomed to repeat the cycle of “dark ages”. And I, for one, will do all I can to avoid falling to the depths that some would wish upon us.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:36 pmHow are these standards at all impossible? Are you purporting that the chinese communists are more inventive than the American capitalists?
It’s not at all impossible. It’s just not as profitable to those automakers.
Comment by Xbot — December 27, 2007 @ 10:32 pm
What?! You impugn the troll’s vastly superior knowledge?! Uh oh.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:43 pmIf consumers want more efficient autos and transport, and their federal government won’t assist, yea, even block the states from enacting local standards, then the consumers will buy cars from other countries that perform to their desires.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:51 pmAnd the American auto industry will once again be left sucking tailpipe.
If CA gets their way on this requirement, which I know no auto company can meet in such a short time frame, I hope that CA gets beat by the auto companies again, as they did with the previous attempts to thwart them.
Car companies might decide to just pay the fines associated with failing to meet the requirements, and pass the costs along to the car buyer in the form of higher car prices.
That’s what the countries who are failing to meet their Kyoto limits are doing. Just make their taxpayers pay the costs of their increased CO2 emissions. But heck, at least they signed the protocol and “appear” to be doing something, eh?
December 27th, 2007 at 10:54 pmIf consumers want more efficient autos and transport, and their federal government won’t assist, yea, even block the states from enacting local standards, then the consumers will buy cars from other countries that perform to their desires.
If? Consumers are already buying hybrids from Japan. Ever hear of the Toyota Prius?
December 27th, 2007 at 10:55 pmUh, duckmog, if means that there are still some moronis are still into gas guzzling SUVs. It’s a question of how many more will vote with their pocketbooks.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:02 pmDamn, your touchy!
The gang in the WH can do whatever they want and nothing will ever happen.
It seems that Americans lost their balls and cant find them.
Worse, there is still a danger of electing another Rep president who will just continue the same pattern. Reps don’t care about people’s needs; they just protect the big corporations’ interests.
What a mess!! Vive la Amerique!!!
December 27th, 2007 at 11:15 pmIf? Consumers are already buying hybrids from Japan. Ever hear of the Toyota Prius?
Comment by muckdog — December 27, 2007 @ 10:55 pm
Prius are built in Oregon suckmutt.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:17 pmHa, Ha, Ha!
I purchased a, dented, Mazda 323 for $300.00 which I drive a couple times per month. It exceeds California’s proposed emissions standards. Please explain how this “took my tax dollars to pay the costs of increased CO2 emissions”?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:17 pmComment by pete — December 27, 2007 @ 11:17 pm
BTW, no American car company has built a car I want since my ‘69 Camaro. And, it got 26 mpg on the highway. When I behaved myself.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:20 pmThe big three have long been slow to change, pity they have to be bailed out by government.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:20 pmBesides that suckmutt, GM destroyed its electric cars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AU3_2IT8k8
December 27th, 2007 at 11:22 pmPrius are built in Oregon suckmutt.
Comment by Xisithrus — December 27, 2007 @ 11:17 pm
Really? Where? It would explain why there are so many of them around town here, but I’ve never heard of an automobile assembly plant in the state.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:25 pm#42, muckdog,
You are right. If CA gets there way, then the consumers will pay the penalties, not the automaker.
This is the second of two arguments where I oddly find myself in the position of consumer advocate. Creating legislation that doens’t solve the root problem, and moreover burdens the consumer, is just ludicrous.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:28 pmI drive a 2007 Prius that I bought in Lansing, it was built in Oregon, and financed through Toyota Financial in Iowa. My car is American made and make us …
http://www.wilx.com/home/misc/12690607.html
I read about it here gummitch. Maybe the owner is wrong?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:31 pmOf course, the “big three” once made an attempt. Anyone remember the “Pinto”, “Vega”, “X-cars” and “K-cars”? They were smaller, lighter, and more fuel efficient, but, they were made out of substandard materials. My dad bought a 1981 Citation which rusted through in two years!
I think it’s safe to say the “big three” won’t enter the new millennium unless they are coerced.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:32 pmTrolls. Please provide one, logical, reason why every new car sold in this country shouldn’t achieve 35 mpg. (I, admittedly, just pulled that number out of the air.)
December 27th, 2007 at 11:35 pmcomment by pete — December 27, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
Yeh, my sister bought a Vega. Worlds first disposable car. Its no wonder the big 3 are hurting.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:38 pmJason would you make a wifi antenna that operated at 56k?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:40 pm#55: What if someone wants a sports car?
Don’t tell me you’re one of these libs who thinks the government should tell you when to wake up, when to go to sleep, where to work, where to go to school, what to drive, what color socks to wear, etc?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:41 pm#55, pete,
The significance of the 35 mpg number was to leapfrog what foreign automakers were already building, so that the playing field is leveled. As long as they use a serial hybrid approach, 35 mpg average is easy, but requires a complete retooling of their vehicle lines, and that is going to take a few years.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:41 pmThat’s what the countries who are failing to meet their Kyoto limits are doing. Just make their taxpayers pay the costs of their increased CO2 emissions. But heck, at least they signed the protocol and “appear†to be doing something, eh?
Comment by muckdog — December 27, 2007 @ 10:54 pm
You mean like the American automobile manufactures have been listing all purpose vehicles as trucks in an attempt to make their truck mileages appear lower to meet federal guidelines. The issue that even Bush agreed now to outlaw. That kind of manipulation mudpuppy?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:41 pm#57, Xis,
56k what?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:42 pmComment by muckdog — December 27, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
This coming from someone that wants the government to bail out the bad actors in the stock market and tap everyones phones and invade his home while hes away.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:42 pm56k what?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
56k speed, like a modem.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:43 pmIf? Consumers are already buying hybrids from Japan. Ever hear of the Toyota Prius?
Comment by muckdog — December 27, 2007 @ 10:55 pm
Some of us, loyal Americans as opposed to greedy neocons, waited until they could buy an American made hybrid to purchase theirs. I purchased a Saturn hybrid now that they are available. See the differenc between you people and progressives is that we’re loyal to our country and it’s citizens and your loyal to your own wallet and your corrupt party.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:43 pmI read about it here gummitch. Maybe the owner is wrong?
Comment by Xisithrus — December 27, 2007 @ 11:31 pm
I’ll see what I can find out, but it would be news to me. Toyota sunk $30 million into Terminal 4 on Swan Island to import cars; it’s been big there for awhile and destined to be bigger. I’m pretty sure Terminal 4 is the center of this image.
If Toyota had a plant here of any kind, I’m pretty sure I would have heard of it, and I can’t find any indication that it exists by searching. I think the Prius owner was wrong, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:45 pmFor that matter, please explain why your average suburbanite should be allowed, much less encouraged, to buy a 4X4? Keep in mind I’ve driven in rural Minnesota for, more than, 30 years. I regularly drive on farm roads, non roads, icy roads and frozen lakes. I can state unequivocally, and based on personal experience, that 4 wheel drive is the least safe. Four powered wheels are the last thing one wants on ice.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:45 pmPrius are built in Oregon suckmutt.
Comment by Xisithrus — December 27, 2007 @ 11:17 pm
Really? Where? It would explain why there are so many of them around town here, but I’ve never heard of an automobile assembly plant in the state.
Comment by gummitch — December 27, 2007 @ 11:25 pm
Prius is #1 in car sales in Los Angeles too. Too bad the big three didn’t feel the need to accomodate this market sooner.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:46 pmYou are right. If CA gets there way, then the consumers will pay the penalties, not the automaker.
This is the second of two arguments where I oddly find myself in the position of consumer advocate. Creating legislation that doens’t solve the root problem, and moreover burdens the consumer, is just ludicrous.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 11:28 pm
That would be true, if it wasn’t a ludicrous premise. Everyone benefits, including the owner, when the car uses less fuel and has lower emissions. What is go damn difficult about that for you to comprehend?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:47 pmIf Toyota had a plant here of any kind, I’m pretty sure I would have heard of it, and I can’t find any indication that it exists by searching -gummitch
Sounds like alot of money to pour into a parking lot for imported cars…
December 27th, 2007 at 11:48 pmOf course, the “big three†once made an attempt. Anyone remember the “Pintoâ€, “Vegaâ€, “X-cars†and “K-carsâ€? They were smaller, lighter, and more fuel efficient, but, they were made out of substandard materials. My dad bought a 1981 Citation which rusted through in two years!
I think it’s safe to say the “big three†won’t enter the new millennium unless they are coerced.
Comment by pete — December 27, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
Many of these cars, especially Chevrolets, were manufactured in Japan and sold under the Chevy name. Eventually they changed the names so people would know they weren’t manufactured here because they were such crap.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:48 pmThe significance of the 35 mpg number was to leapfrog what foreign automakers were already building, so that the playing field is leveled. As long as they use a serial hybrid approach, 35 mpg average is easy, but requires a complete retooling of their vehicle lines, and that is going to take a few years.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
I thought you said it was impossible. Retooling takes less time if they start earlier, obviously. As long as the US auto industry keeps up their resistance to change, it will just take longer and get more expensive. It’s elementary capital budgeting.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:49 pm#63, Xis,
Oh, I think you are confusing data rate with wireless transmission frequency. Current wi-fi products transmit a frequencies in the GHz.
To answer your question, no, I don’t do antenna productization anymore.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:52 pmYou make antennas Jason, right?
What the automakers are doing is, to me, is making 56k modems, or antennas, and then crying to the government they cant sell them because of new rules by the FCC.
The big three did this to themselves and now they want the government to bail them out.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:52 pmBut Mr Cheney, we have been building Fred Flinstone mobiles for years!!!
December 27th, 2007 at 11:53 pm#55: What if someone wants a sports car?
Don’t tell me you’re one of these libs who thinks the government should tell you when to wake up, when to go to sleep, where to work, where to go to school, what to drive, what color socks to wear, etc?
Comment by muckdog — December 27, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
If Mercedes can build a goddamn station wagon that gets 47 mpg, you don’t think a 35 mpg sports car is feasible? Obviously, you know diddly squat about automobile engineering.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:53 pm#68, gum,
No ….
If car companies intend to pay the penalty, it means they are selling a vehicle that DOES NOT meet the new regulation. The CONSUMER is paying the penalty in higher vehicle purchase price.
NOTHING is solved.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:54 pmIf Toyota had a plant here of any kind, I’m pretty sure I would have heard of it, and I can’t find any indication that it exists by searching. I think the Prius owner was wrong, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise.
Comment by gummitch — December 27, 2007 @ 11:45 pm
I believe both Honda and Toyota have many assembly plants in the US. The only way to know where a car is manufactured is if the first number of the serial number is 1 it was manufactured in the US.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:54 pmIf any of the big three had their heads anywhere but up their arses, they’d be bidding to capitalize on the Tesla auto concept.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:57 pmAll electric, lithium ion.
Dufi, all of them.
#71, gum,
I certainly never said that it was impossible.
Autos using a serial hybrid configuration would have to be designed from the ground up, which takes 36 months for US manufacturers intending to develop a large volume production car.
GM did get a headstart on the Chevy Volt, and it should hit the streets for the 2010 model year, but that is the first vehicle. Each subsequent vehicle will be based on the Volt’s tech, and move over gradually, so this will be a decade long or longer process.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:57 pmThe CONSUMER is paying the penalty in higher vehicle purchase price.
NOTHING is solved. -JMH
Not really, people just wont buy them.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:58 pmComment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
That’s what is commonly called a fallacy. My 1986 Mazda 323 gets 38 mpg. (33 mpg when I’m towing my, admittedly small, boat.) My 1979 diesel rabbit got over 40mpg. Neither was expensive or used “cutting edge” technology. I briefly owned a 1988 Olds which exceeded 30 mpg on the highway.
Sports cars? I had a Triumph Spitfire that got 35mpg plus and I’ve never driven a car that was more fun. Though my ‘69 Camaro was close at 26 mpg. That was nearly 30 years ago. BTW, neither of those vehicles had the benefit of computer controlled fuel injection.
Heck, simply mandating 2 wheel drive for “on road” use would save immense quantities of gas.
What pisses me off is that we continue to waste resources for vanity. How many “soccer moms” are diving around vehicles that need not exist?
December 27th, 2007 at 11:59 pm#78, RUC,
I suspect that Tesla will be selling power / drive train systems to all the major automakers in the future, which is their business strategy.
Fisker is also a serious contender in this arena.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:59 pm#81, pete,
Yes, small vehicles can easily achieve 35+ mpg, but this number is a fleet average, so small vehicles will actually have to achieve 45 – 50 mpg to compensate for SUV hybrids that get around 22 – 25 mpg.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:01 amGM did get a headstart on the Chevy Volt, and it should hit the streets for the 2010 model year, but that is the first vehicle. Each subsequent vehicle will be based on the Volt’s tech, and move over gradually, so this will be a decade long or longer process.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 11:57 pm
GM already has a Saturn Aura hybrid and two Saturn truck hybrids, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. And this year Chevrolet will be coming out with the same care as the Aura under the Chevy name. And I believe Ford already has a hybrid too.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:01 am#82, Jason, I hope so, they’re management shakeup was the result of falling behind in promising to have a sedan out this year, now slated for 2010, maybe…
December 28th, 2007 at 12:03 am#84, Shayne,
The type of hybrids that GM are currently fielding are not going to be sufficient to meet the new standards. They are using electric assist or parallel hybrid approaches, which aren’t as efficient as serial hyrid, or range-extended electric, as they are becoming known.
I worked at the GM Tech Center, so I do know something about the auto industry.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:04 amI worked at the GM Tech Center, so I do know something about the auto industry.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 12:04 am
Yeh, they build sucky things that break down and become completely worthless in 5 years.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:06 amThe EV1 was not electric assist.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:06 amIt was all electric
December 28th, 2007 at 12:07 amComment by Shayne — December 27, 2007 @ 11:48 pm
Um, I’m afraid we can’t blame the Japanese for the “rust buckets” of the late ’70’s early 80’s. The blame goes squarely on the “big three” and their drive to “make cheap cars out of cheap sh!t”. Even then they were not able to compete at turning out good cheap cars and never felt motivated to make good cheap cars like their Japanese competitors. Why? Because they refused, as they refuse to this day, to sacrifice short term profit. All those dollars which could have been spent on innovation went into peoples pockets.
I feel sorry for the workers who hitched their stars to the American auto industry, but, I have zero sympathy for the decision makers who doomed them.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:09 amXis,
Lighten up, I anticipate some great things coming out of GM, starting with the Chevy Volt.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:10 am#90, pete,
The US auto industry was a cloistered world, but fortunately, foreign automakers opened manufacturing plants in the US, so it isn’t the strange ritualistic environment that it used to be.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:12 amLighten up, I anticipate some great things coming out of GM, starting with the Chevy Volt.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 12:10
Lease the battery,own the car!
December 28th, 2007 at 12:14 amWhy? Because they refused, as they refuse to this day, to sacrifice short term profit. -Pete
Remember when they supposedly ran out of tires and started putting those cheezy donuts in the trunk? Or when you bought a chevy and got a buick engine?
December 28th, 2007 at 12:16 amHEY TP… ARE YOU GOING TO POST THIS RETRACTION?
http://themedium.blogs.nytimes.com/ 2007/ 12/ 26/ editors-note-the-ron-paul-vid-lash/
Editors’ Note: The Ron Paul Vid-Lash
By The New York Times
A post in The Medium that appeared on Monday about the Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul and his purported adoption by white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups contained several errors. Stormfront, which describes itself as a “white nationalist†Internet community, did not give money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign; according to Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Paul’s campaign, it was Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, who donated $500 to Paul. The original post also repeated a string of assertions by Bill White, the commander of the American National Socialist Workers Party, including the allegation that Paul meets regularly “with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review and others†at a restaurant in Arlington, Va. Paul never attended these dinners, according to Benton, who also says that Paul has never knowingly met Bill White. Norman Singleton, a congressional aide in Paul’s office, says that he met Bill White at a dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton expressed his indignation at the views espoused by White to the organizer of the dinner. The original post should not have been published with these unverified assertions and without any response from Paul.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:18 amIt was all electric
Comment by Xisithrus — December 28, 2007 @ 12:07 am
I got to drive one of those for an afternoon.
Totally cool vehicle. I simply could not understand why GM took them all back and crushed them.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:18 amComment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 12:01 am
Why own an SUV? As I said, on the rare occasions I drive, I spend a lot of time on poor roads or off road. I don’t have kids but I fish, and fly R/C airplanes, which take up a lot of room. You couldn’t pay me enough to drive a 4X4 SUV.
I read a poll, some years ago, where the number one reason for the preference for SUV’s was the convenience of not having to load stuff in a trunk! I’m not willing to pay the price for the vanity and convenience of stupid people.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:19 am#96, tros,
Supposedly the economics changed before the vehicle hit production, as gas eventually got cheap again, etc.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:20 amTotally cool vehicle. I simply could not understand why GM took them all back and crushed them.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Me either.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:24 amOr when you bought a chevy and got a buick engine?
Comment by Xisithrus — December 28, 2007 @ 12:16 am
Oh Boy! Do I remember.
I was once ready to buy an Olds when the salesman said, “with these options it’s the same as a Cadillac”. That made me think, so, I went to look at Pontiacs which “with these options were the same as an Olds”. That’s when I chucked the whole deal and bought my VW.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:24 amComment by pete — December 28, 2007 @ 12:24 am
Big three in one! Heh.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:30 amthe convenience of not having to load stuff in a trunk -Pete
Plus when you load things in a trunk they dont come flying forward and hit you in the back of the head.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:31 amI worked at the GM Tech Center, so I do know something about the auto industry.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 12:04 am
And my husband spent 20 years as a GM automobile technician taking classes at the tech centers and talking about how little the instructors there know. And I own the hybrid so I’m not pulling anything out of my ass as you so often do. He also spent time as a Dodge technician and as a Lincon/Mercury technician and I’m pretty sure he forgot more about cars than you’ll ever know.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:35 amComment by Shayne — December 28, 2007 @ 12:35 am
Oops.
Ah, what’s 20 years? Jason worked at the tech center — someone had to clean the toilets, right?
December 28th, 2007 at 12:40 amGeneral Motors seems to be putting a lot of eggs in the hydrogen basket anyway. They are going to be on the market next year but will only be available to lease not for sale.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:41 amAnd, of course, the moral of the story is that conservation and innovation are good things. That will never change. If existing technologies are implemented, and developed, we can improve our chances in many areas.
G’night good people.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:47 amYou too trolls.
Actually GM is giving out 100 Chevy Equinox fuel cell cars to drivers to test for 3 months at a time. The rethugs like Jason would have you believe that the automobile manufacturers here haven’t started to work on the needed changes. The oil companies probably don’t want people to know there are alternatives. And Jason my Saturn Aura Hybrid is a four door sedan that gets 35 mph, d*ckhead.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:50 amOT – anyone listen to Mike Malloy tonight? He talked of an interview made on Nov 2 ‘07 – Frost with Benazir Bhutto. In the interview Bhutto talks of her enemies one being the guy that assassinated Osama BL. Here is the interview, those words are at the almost half way place.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ
December 28th, 2007 at 12:53 amI have a 1987 Honda CRX that routinely gets 45+ MPG while cruising at 75+ MPH.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:54 amAs I recall the development of the EV1 was initiated to meet mandates that the state of Ca had imposed. Recent history has shown US auto makers need to be pushed kicking and screaming to innovate. Cheney coddling the whiners really hurts all of us including the automakers. People loved the EV1 and they had a waiting list. Think how far ahead of the game they’d be now if they hadn’t scrapped the project. But no, instead of proceeding with a very promising car they decided it would be cheaper to sue Ca. to lower their standards. Really, I’d like to have faith in US companies, but they often appear too stupid to live.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:26 amSupposedly the economics changed before the vehicle hit production, as gas eventually got cheap again, etc.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 12:20 am
Dunno. It was like driving this silent little space shuttle. I had it for about 3, 4 hrs. I couldn’t wait to show it to a friend and let them drive it for few minutes.
The Silver Rocket…
December 28th, 2007 at 1:28 amReally, I’d like to have faith in US companies, but they often appear too stupid to live.
Comment by onoclea — December 28, 2007 @ 1:26 am
Gee, ya think???
December 28th, 2007 at 1:29 am“Supposedly the economics changed before the vehicle hit production, as gas eventually got cheap again, etc.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 12:20 am”
Bullshit, Hendler, pure bullshit.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:14 amwatch the wingnuts claim that this is the ultimate proof that this administration follows the rule of law…
December 28th, 2007 at 4:21 amWhy do I get the feeling that when someone in Congress actually wants to read those White House documents, they will have been been “mistakenly” bundled up and sent out for recycling.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:56 amShayne,
Get over yourself. There’s a difference between being adept at maintenance, and understanding tech, manufacturing and markets. What your husband “knows” about cars will be trivia in 10 years, as most of the hardware under the hood completely changes.
… so your hubby bought you a hybrid, wow, are you an expert or what?
December 28th, 2007 at 8:57 amIf car companies intend to pay the penalty, it means they are selling a vehicle that DOES NOT meet the new regulation. The CONSUMER is paying the penalty in higher vehicle purchase price.
NOTHING is solved.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
Consumers don’t have to pay any penalties via higher vehicle purchase prices. The Japanese and the Germans won’t be paying any penalties since they can comply with any regulations we throw at them. Consequently they can offer their cars at the prices they have now. And Americans will buy them, unless they can buy an American car that’s competitive in both price and quality.
It’s called free market. Something the Republicans supposedly support.
December 28th, 2007 at 8:58 am#113, Sabyen91,
I am certain that you want to hold onto your “evil big oil” belief system, but if you want to blame anyone, blame the California Air Resources Board for “rewarding” GM’s innovations by mandating their new tech into their vehicles. Is it any wonder that companies hide their advances from a government eager to show off the green bonifides by slamming companies with their own good deeds?
December 28th, 2007 at 9:01 am#117, missmolly,
THAT is a myth. The CAFE standards just passed by Congress exceed standards in other nations, so while Asian and European manufacturers may have one or two models that meet the standard, they certainly don’t have a fleet to meet that corporate average.
No auto manufacturer offers a fleet of vehicles that Americans want at ANY price that will meet both the new fed standards and CA’s standards together.
I know, I know, you will come back with everyone should be driving Honda Civics, or something smaller, but that is not what the market wants, or what automakers can make money selling.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:05 amknow, I know, you will come back with everyone should be driving Honda Civics, or something smaller, but that is not what the market wants, or what automakers can make money selling.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 9:05 am
jason Hitler, you wear your ignorance and brainwashing like a badge of honor. How horrible it must be to be you. No wonder you’re always here; everybody around you must hate to be in the company of such proud ignorance.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:39 amThis is just another of the many examples of the damage that this administration has done to the future of not only America but the earth’s environment, and to hear people defend this blocking infuriates me. Some of you people are sick.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:45 amThis Hitler guy talks about Civics and “smaller cars”, who is at fault? Not me. I don’t drive supertankers that have never seen mud in their life to the store.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:53 amLone Voice of Reason: I wonder if there can be a defacto criminal trial where these thugs are charged with the “crime” of raping the environment? Recently I heard that the rest of the world will soon make it a “global crime” to not adhere to strict carbon emission standards…..the likes of which Cheney has forestalled in this country with his side deals with the auto makers and the EPA.
Perhaps these american auto dealers as well as the EPA will be held liable in a class action suit for people whose have pulmonary problems directly attributable to our carbon emissions in this country. Not unlike the tobacco industry……
December 28th, 2007 at 9:55 amVer, something has to be done, I’ve heard warnings about pollution since I was in elementary school back in the 70s. I live in the upper mid-west and I understand why people need four-wheelers but this passion Americans have with gigantic vehicles is ridiculous, and harmful.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:00 amPoor Jason…He must be the skeleton crew working the troll-center during this holiday season. Of course there aren’t many threads to patrol so he probably gets to spend most of the day wadding up old RNC talking point faxes and shooting baskets at the trash can.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:00 amI haven’t been on here for a while, I’m a full time student, is Jason a “formally known as…”?
December 28th, 2007 at 10:07 amComment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 8:57 am
Why are you so fscking stupid?
You flaunt your ignorance and decry the knowledge of others.
Typical Republican behavior……..
This has got to be an act, no one could be this stupid and be able to type, much less remember to breathe.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:07 amComment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 9:05 am
The point I was making was that if California wants to make their laws more stringent than the national standard, SOMEBODY will still make cars that they can sell in California. The California auto market is too lucrative to ignore. Yes — car dealerships will be heavy with Civics, Priuses, and Corollas. And the only SUVs to be seen will probably be hybrids.
Tough.
California is willing to take this chance. If Schwarzeneggar — a known Hummer fan — can champion these tight restrictions, I say good for him. If he can forego “the cars America wants” in favor of cars that are good for the environment, then we all can.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:09 amI was just out in Norther Cali, everyone drives BMWs and Audis anyway.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:12 am#128, missmolly,
Perhaps you weren’t aware, but Arnie keeps buying up carbon credits to compensate for the excesses of his own fuel usage. You see, the rich and powerful will still continue to live extravagently, while the rest of us get pushed into econo-boxes or pushed out of CA.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:15 amI understand why people need four-wheelers but this passion Americans have with gigantic vehicles is ridiculous, and harmful.
Comment by the Lone Voice of Reason — December 28, 2007 @ 10:00 am
I believe this “passion” comes from relentless advertising by automakers telling Americans they just HAVE to have these gas-gulping pollution machines. Why? They’re more profitable.
Americans are basically sheep. Advertising works because Americans will buy what they’re told to buy. And they’ll convince themselves that’s what they really want while they do so.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:15 amThe people in my state, Michigan just want to make cars. I don’t think they care about emissions and gas mileage, so idiots like Jason can’t blame demand as our problem.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:15 amMissy you are absolutely right. I was never good at English so thanks for making my point for me, in your previous post.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:20 amPerhaps you weren’t aware, but Arnie keeps buying up carbon credits to compensate for the excesses of his own fuel usage. You see, the rich and powerful will still continue to live extravagently, while the rest of us get pushed into econo-boxes or pushed out of CA.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 10:15 am
Are you suggesting that California residents who want to register gas-guzzlers in that state may do so merely by paying an extra fee?
It’s possible that’s how it will work out. This way, people who own and drive older cars not meeting the requirements will still be able to drive their cars — but the higher fees will eventually encourage them to get cars meeting the standard. I see nothing wrong with this.
As far as getting “pushed into econoboxes” — those of us with small budgets are already there. I make only a modest paycheck, and I drive a 2000 Toyota Corolla. And I’m happy with it because it gets great mileage, so I don’t have to spend a fortune on gas.
And as far as getting “pushed out of CA” — the cost of living in California has already pushed many people into other parts of the country where the cost of living is less. Insane real estate values are a much bigger factor than the cost of driving. Even the sky-high cost of auto insurance in CA is a bigger problem than the cost of the cars themselves.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:24 am#134, missmolly,
You seem to understand that there are many economic pressures on individuals in CA, but are OK heaping more burdens on low wage workers anyway?
Please understand, the new CAFE standards passed by the fed is expected to raise vehicle prices by $5,000, and if CA gets their way, forcing standards on a greatly reduced timetable, those per vehicle prices will be even higher.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:31 amNevermind, I just read the previous thread with Jason cheering the death total of American Soldiers as a good thing.
He is that stupid…..
December 28th, 2007 at 10:35 amPlease understand, the new CAFE standards passed by the fed is expected to raise vehicle prices by $5,000, and if CA gets their way, forcing standards on a greatly reduced timetable, those per vehicle prices will be even higher.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 10:31 am
The point is — California WANTS to do this. And the federal government is saying they can’t. You truly think the EPA is acting out of concern for poor Californians?
I say that if California wants to enact stringent environmental laws, and they are willing to take the risk that cars may be more expensive or even non-existent — let them.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:10 amPlease understand, the new CAFE standards passed by the fed is expected to raise vehicle prices by $5,000, and if CA gets their way, forcing standards on a greatly reduced timetable, those per vehicle prices will be even higher.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 28, 2007 @ 10:31 am
Any chance of getting a link to a neutral reference which supports this? I haven’t heard this anywhere else but haven’t been paying excessive attention. It seems grossly excsssive as a percentage of the total cost of production. Thanks!
December 28th, 2007 at 12:06 pmIf CA gets their way on this requirement, which I know no auto company can meet in such a short time frame, I hope that CA gets beat by the auto companies again, as they did with the previous attempts to thwart them.
If not, I hope automakers sell their cars to 3rd party conversion companies, who then mark them up an exhorbitant amount, hurting the CA economy.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — December 27, 2007 @ 7:21 pm
California doesn’t attempt to “thwart” auto companies. California attempts to get auto companies to act responsibly where our environment is concerned. The California economy will not be hurt by any actions taken by auto companies. If auto companies were to mark cars up by an exhorbitant amount, they would just hurt themselves. Interesting that you wish harm against California, one of the United States, and you wish harm against the people of California, citizens of the United States. That makes you a terrorist, Jason M. Hendler, does it not? And I’m sure you’d agree wholeheartedly that since you are a terrorist who wishes ill will against one of the United States and its people, that you ought to be shipped off to some secret prison and waterboarded until you die a horrific death.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:03 pmI HOPE THE WAR CRIMINAL DICK CHENNEY ENDS UP JUST LIKE ANOTHER FAMOUS WAR CRIMINAL, MUSSOLINI (IL DULCE). HIS FAT UGLY BODY DRAGED THROUGH THE STREETS OF ROME, HANGED UPSIDE DOWN AND SPAT BY THE ITALIAN PEOPLE. HAGUE 09.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:59 pm140–works for me!
December 28th, 2007 at 3:18 pmbibleboy: “Please understand, the new CAFE standards passed by the fed is expected to raise vehicle prices by $5,000, and if CA gets their way, forcing standards on a greatly reduced timetable, those per vehicle prices will be even higher.”
Pure, unmitigated nonsense. The average MPG in Europe is high 30’s and the average auto is not more expensive to own than they are in this country. In fact, Buick makes a car for Europe that gets 40 MPG but is unavailable here. Bibleboy, can you explain that?
December 28th, 2007 at 5:51 pmdbadass: “It seems grossly excsssive as a percentage of the total cost of production.”
No legitimate documentation for bibleboy’s claim will be forthcoming because none exists. It’s corporate propaganda spread by Exxon.
December 28th, 2007 at 5:53 pmbibleboy: “Please understand, the new CAFE standards passed by the fed is expected to raise vehicle prices by $5,000, and if CA gets their way, forcing standards on a greatly reduced timetable, those per vehicle prices will be even higher.â€
That is just stupid. My Saturn gets 30+ to the gallon. It didn’t cost $5000 more. And simple tech advances should have mph at 40+ by 2012 anyway (unless American companies keep insisting on making giant SUVs like they have for the past 10 years). Stop the bullsh!t bibleboy.
December 29th, 2007 at 4:23 am