Bhutto buried.
By on Dec 28th, 2007 at 10:25 am
Bhutto buried.
Former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto was buried today, after her assassination yesterday. “A senior government official said there were no immediate plans to postpone the parliamentary elections scheduled for Jan. 8,” intended to “restore democracy after eight years of military dictatorship.” Interior Minister Hamid Nawaz added, “We have the evidence that al-Qaida and Taliban were behind the suicide attack on Benazir Bhutto.”
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im very sad for the world.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:32 amI’ll be interested in this press conference later today where the “whole story” of this supposed Al Qaeda and Taliban plot is revealed.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:33 amNevermind, I just read the previous thread with Jason cheering the death total of American Soldiers as a good thing.
He is that stupid…..
December 28th, 2007 at 10:33 amoops wrong thread, sorry
December 28th, 2007 at 10:34 amDon’t worry about it Wayne — pointing out the idiocy and ignorance of JMH is never out of place.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:39 amoops wrong thread, sorry
Comment by Wayne — December 28, 2007 @ 10:34 am
Not to worry, Wayne — I’m sure Jason will be stopping by here soon to enlighten us with his unique perspective.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:39 amFrom the article:
“Many Bhutto followers openly blame the Pakistani government for her assassination; others fault Mr. Musharraf for failing to provide enough security, particularly in light of the bomb blasts that had greeted Ms. Bhutto upon her return to the country in October. The Musharraf government maintains that Ms. Bhutto should have avoided large open gatherings, and that it provided as much security as it could.”
“it provided as much security as it could.”
The pattern is unmistakeable. Just as Bush failed to provide America adequate protection on 9/11, and then used the disaster as an excuse for invading Iraq, Mushy will use Bhutto’s followers’ violent reaction to her assassination (brought about by Mushy’s own decision not to provide enough protection) as an excuse to put off the election, even though the Pakistani government now says they won’t.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:44 amWell, apparently she was hit by shrapnel according to Pakistani government officials. This goes against eye-witness reports which say she went down after shots were fired by a person in the crowd.
If the eye-witnesses are to be believed (i’d tend to side with them over the “government officials”) then the bomb went off AFTER Ms.Bhutto went back down into her vehicle and after the shots. So she would have had to be hit by shrapnel in the neck while INSIDE her armoured vehicle. Something just doesn’t add up here. Of course, it’s been linked to Al-Queda. But when has Al-Queda committed an assassination by shooting? Stay tuned.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:45 amMike Huckabee says the assassination of Pakistani politician Benazir Bhutto underscores the need to secure the America’s borders to prevent potential terror attacks here.
“We ought to have an immediate, very clear monitoring of our borders and particularly to make sure if there’s any unusal activity of Pakistanis coming into the country….,” Huckabee said during a news conference Thursday night in West Des Moines.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:49 am“I’ll be interested in this press conference later today where the “whole story†of this supposed Al Qaeda and Taliban plot is revealed.”
Comment by missmolly
The ISI is sure to provide unrefutable evidence – and the lifeless bodies of the “perpetrators.”
Case Closed.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:50 amNot only do a great many Pakistanis think the government is responsible, there also are a great number who think she deserves what she got. It goes along the lines of “who is this uppity woman coming back here to tell us about democracy?” Sad but true. There’s a tendency to blame the victim.
http://www.13martyrs.blogspot.com/
December 28th, 2007 at 10:51 amBush loves this news he gets to keep his useless partner in the “War on Terra” in power.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:54 amNawaz says they have the evidence that Al Qaeda and the Taliban were behind the assassination and promise to reveal the “whole story” at a press conference later today.
It speaks well of the efficiency of Pakistani investigators that they have their “whole story” so quickly. I see several possible reasons for this:
1) Al-Qaeda and the Taliban really did plot, plan, and carry out the assassination of Bhutto. They then called authorities in Pakistan claiming credit for the act and giving their reasons why.
2) Al-Qaeda and the Taliban carried out their detailed plan to assassinate Bhutto but inexplicably did such an amateurish job that the clues they left behind allowed Pakistani investigators to solve the case almost immediately.
3) The current government or other opposing political interests conspired with suicide bombers to assassinate Bhutto in order to get rid of political competition. Al-Qaeda would be blamed, but would receive a sizable financial contribution to their cause under the table for their efforts. They are able to deliver the “whole story” to the public this quickly because they have been working on the story for quite some time.
4) The United States CIA staged the event because having an unstable Pakistan fits the agenda of the warmongers — including a story that Pakistan could give the public. The current Pakistani regime didn’t make any fuss over this because it worked out well for them. Yes, this one is far-fetched — but Cheney is so bizarrely scary, you never really know.
5) Other thoughts for other scenarios? Get creative — your scenario might actually be the real one!
December 28th, 2007 at 10:54 am5) Other thoughts for other scenarios? Get creative — your scenario might actually be the real one!
Comment by missmolly
6) Another Mossad “false flag” terrorist attack.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:57 amComment by leftcoast — December 28, 2007 @ 10:49 am
It figures that the Repubs are going to use this to ramp up the “be afraid — be very afraid” temperature here.
Will we fall for it? I’m sure the 24%ers will.
December 28th, 2007 at 10:58 am#13 Comment by missmolly
I’m guessing option #3
December 28th, 2007 at 10:58 amBush loves this news he gets to keep his useless partner in the “War on Terra†in power.
Comment by maxamillion — December 28, 2007 @ 10:54 am
And even more important, he’s going to use it to breathe more life into the “War on Terra” itself.
Support for Bush’s policies have been going south steadily for some time now. He really needed this. Hmmm…….
December 28th, 2007 at 11:00 amI would have to go for #4 because there has to be SOME way to tie Cheney into this assassination.
I wish I knew how Cheney pulled this off and exactly what his obscure bottom line might be.
Genius, pure genius.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:01 amThis tragic event is so tailored made for this election cycle. Look for more of the same.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:02 am#7) A few ever-peaceful denizens of the middle east actually committed this attack because this is how they ‘do’ politics lately.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:04 amI agree with Miss Molly’s #3 possibility since this administration of smoke and mirrors has lost ALL trust of the people of the world. How can we now be expected to believe anything this (cry wolf) administration says? Of course, it had to be AQ so Bush could use it as a tool to trump his war on terror! That makes perfect sense.
Besides, isn’t the MO incredibly familiar? 911 immediately attributable to AQ; now Bhutto’s murder immediately attributed to AQ?? This may have Bush’s fingerprints all over it.
He may believe that this will add mileage or breathe new air into his fear war but he will not succeed because the cat is well out of the bag on Bush’s demonic tactics. Only those ruled by fear will bite on this one.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:06 amOne reason they might have “the whole story” so quickly is because ISI liasons with AQ and the Taliban.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:07 amleftcoast: “Tailor Made”, indeed! Or perhaps “Bush made” instead? Now all we need is another false flag attack on Israel to bring about Bush’s wet dream of WW3.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:08 amBarfly: Perhaps the connection is so intimate that this is true. Maybe that’s why Bush mysteriously “knew” it was AQ immediately after 911 – due to his own intimate connection to it all.
At this point, it’s safe to say that americans believe absolutely nothing they hear when it comes from any mouth within the Bush Cabal of liars. I also believe nothing in print media at this point or on television.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:09 amThat’s WW4, Veritas. We’re currently in WW3.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:10 amDarth Cheney just messed himself. Oil prices on the climb, world conflict at all time high and threat of nuclear apocalypse looms, Mission Accomplished! Hmm, I wonder what that fire last week in the VP offices was all about.
All Terror, All the time. Cons back on queue.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:10 amEvidently, Bhutto emailed an american friend two months ago and said that if she were murdered, they could attribute it either directly or indirectly to Musharraf, that he would be knowledgeable about it or behind it personally.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:11 amThe ISI is probably in on the hit, compromised so to say by their allegiance to the islamists.
Pakistan isn’t far from a serious meltdown with their nukes sitting squarely in the middle.
Sleep tight.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:12 ambarfly: Good catch! Abso-frickin’-lutely! The “War on the Middle Class”.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:12 amDoes anyone else find the incredible hypocrisy and irony in Pakistan having nukes and Bush not caring one iota about the danger of those nukes in an unstable political environment there? I find this mind-boggling myself.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:13 amThe Pakistani people are going to hang this on Musharref, no matter who did it. Their level of trust of him seems to mirror our level of trust of our (it gags me to say this) president.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:13 amThat’s probably because Bush is a “silent partner” with Musharraf. Loved the way he had no serious condemnation of Mush’s martial law charade.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:14 amRU: Strange bedfellows: Musharraf and Bush??
December 28th, 2007 at 11:14 amCheckpoints with metal detectors didn’t detect the bomber/gunman (men), so who was handling security? Oh, government officers…
December 28th, 2007 at 11:14 amveritas, not so strange, I bet Bush admires his strongman buddy, getting to be a dicktater and all.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:16 amRU: I think it mirrors our country exactly. Every underhanded, illegal breach of federal law, constitution, bill of rights, various conventions opon which we are signatory…..stops at the top. We KNOW Bush knows everything that’s transpiring but has enough “plausible deniability” (overt lie) involved that he never admits to knowing anything.
On the surface it would appear that he is a bumbling idiot which is a far better diagnosis than being outed as a treasonous traitor.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:17 amNo Doubt Musharraf’s is “Bush’s Dicta-Idol”….
December 28th, 2007 at 11:17 amGeeze, I should send TP a resume’. They get a whole week off for Christmas?
Must be rough.
But my condolences go to the yutz who got stuck with the chore of coming to work while everyone else gets to stay home with their families.
Maybe next year they’ll chose someone else.
Sorry, dude(tte).
December 28th, 2007 at 11:18 amWhen Dumbo’s sole comment to Musharraf was to “take off his uniform”, the truth was out then and there. He did not admonish the dictator for installing military law; instead, he trivialized it by making a joke about garb. Yeck!
December 28th, 2007 at 11:18 amBarfly: Ah – makes sense now. I kept looking for credible news over the past couple of days on TP but found very little. Even Bhutto’s murder took a day to appear….was about to chuck this blog completely and stick with my other favorites instead.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:20 amDoes anyone else find the incredible hypocrisy and irony in Pakistan having nukes and Bush not caring one iota about the danger of those nukes in an unstable political environment there?
I agree, we should either invade and topple the Musharraf government or else force them to give up their nukes somehow.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:21 amHmmmm…a country looking at the return of a morally questionable politician as the “fresh start’ to get out from under an even more odious and dictatorial politician. Pakistan? or is that the US? Either way, it is a sad state of affairs.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:21 amVeritas,
It’ll be thin gruel until after the First. Nothing ever happens during Christmas anyway, right? (snerk!!)
December 28th, 2007 at 11:21 am“We have the evidence that al-Qaida and Taliban were behind the suicide attack on Benazir Bhutto.â€
Perhaps this is blowback for the dictator Musharraf’s truce with al-Qaida?
December 28th, 2007 at 11:23 amPerhaps this is blowback for the dictator Musharraf’s truce with al-Qaida?
He has been dealing with the devil for quite a while now.
When you allow increasingly large tracts of your own country to be controlled by tribal islamists, sooner or later they are going to decide they can get more out of you.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:25 amIn Islam, there is great respect for the dead. The body is not to be violated (disturbed as little as possible during burial preparation), no autopsy performed (this would be considered a violation), and the dead must be buried within 24 hours if at all possible.
While I respect Islamic tenets concerning burial of the dead, I do wish they allowed autopsies in the interest of justice. Of course, if there is any corruption or cover-up involved with this tragedy, it probably wouldn’t make any difference.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:26 am“Perhaps this is blowback for the dictator Musharraf’s truce with al-Qaida?”
Comment by stewarjt
“Blowback” usually entails negative connotations. But this assassination isn’t a negative for ‘ol Mushy.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:27 amHas Al-Queda ever denied being involved in an attack?
December 28th, 2007 at 11:30 amFirst they reported that she died from a bullet wound.
Then it was shrapnel.
Now they are saying that she hit her head on the car’s roof.
What will it be next?
December 28th, 2007 at 11:31 amHas Al-Queda ever denied being involved in an attack?
Comment by robertoroberto
Not bad for an organization that doesn’t even exist.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:32 amHas Al-Queda ever denied being involved in an attack?
Comment by robertoroberto — December 28, 2007 @ 11:30 am
Hardly ever, though it makes you wonder why they would claim responsibility at all knowing it might hurt their cause.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:32 amComment by JPV — December 28, 2007 @ 11:31 am
The latest rumor is that Bhutto was sniped and the bombings occurred to cover-up that evidence as much as possible.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:34 amWhat will it be next?
Comment by JPV — December 28, 2007 @ 11:31 am
Uh, polio?
December 28th, 2007 at 11:34 amas usual, gg gets it entirely wrong.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:35 amAl-Qaida and the Taliban have no interest in democracy in Pakistan. Neither has Musharraf. This is one thing they have in common.
Butho would fight the Taliban and Al-Qaida. Probably these two groups, with Musharraf’s blessings, executed Butho. Thus they can continue regrouping on the mountains in Pakistan, with Muhsarraf’s protection.
The US spent $10 billion with Musharraf in the hope he will fight terrorism. Has anyone ever seen any anti-terrorism activity led by Musharraf? Did I miss something???
Bush’s gift to Pakistan (OUR money!!) doesn’t seem to be working very well for us… Just another BUSH-it.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:38 am“The body is not to be violated (disturbed as little as possible during burial preparation), no autopsy performed (this would be considered a violation), and the dead must be buried within 24 hours if at all possible.”
No autopsy? This cultural taboo would negate most if not all of the rule of law, by making a religious belief more authoritative than a legal statute (that law enforcement be able to collect the evidence necessary to even determine if a crime has been committed). This would be a hideous parody of our concepts of democracy and the rule of law.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:38 amHas Al-Queda ever denied being involved in an attack?
Comment by robertoroberto — December 28, 2007 @ 11:30 am
Only attacks they genuinely had nothing to do with, to the best of my knowledge. Because their purpose is to bring as much publicity to their cause as possible, it would be highly unlikely they wouldn’t claim credit for an attack they carried out.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:38 amRegardless of what really happened, I think it’s safe to say that Pakistan will have to be removed from consideration for hosting the 2014 Olympic games.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:39 amJust look at the empty words Kommander Chucklenuts was spewing only a few years ago:
“What was really interesting was that — and I briefed this to the members — that we were able to reach a very strong consensus that the world must confront the root causes of the current instability. And the root cause of that current instability is terrorism and terrorist attacks on a democratic country. And part of those terrorist attacks are inspired by nation states, like Syria and Iran. And in order to be able to deal with this crisis, the world must deal with Hezbollah, with Syria and to continue to work to isolate Iran.”
Keep those gums a flapping Kommander, you’re bound to say something truthful before you leave office.
-GSD
December 28th, 2007 at 11:42 amBush’s gift to Pakistan (OUR money!!) doesn’t seem to be working very well for us… Just another BUSH-it.
Comment by drtichy — December 28, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Well I suppose we could just force Musharaff from power (ala Richardson) and see what happens, though the thought of an ISI/islamist government controlling all those nukes isn’t exactly a happy one.
Musharaff is the best we can hope for from a field of bad choices; Pakistan is a chaotic dump with no real and peaceful solution in sight.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:43 amYes. It’s a sad day for the Pakistani Olympic fans.
I ask about Al-Queda because i’ve literally never heard of them producing a media segment proclaiming their innocence. Reports of their involvement may or may not be accurate. I’d still like to know who fired the shots before the explosion though. Interestingly, i’ve noticed that all video tape of the even only shows her waving with her body out of the sun roof. Why no video of the incident itself?
December 28th, 2007 at 11:45 amPakistan is a chaotic dump with no real and peaceful solution in sight.
Comment by Lobishomen — December 28, 2007 @ 11:43 am
Au contraire, Pakistan is a beautiful country, with an intelligent, educated populace for the most part. It’s government is really screwed up after being manipulated by the west for the last thirty years or so. Their nuclear capability was developed as a shield against India, with whom they have fought several wars.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:49 amWe side with both, playing them off against each other.
Nice try.
It’s become a tough nut to crack when trying to figure out who slaughtered who in the middle east lately, and this event seems to be tougher than most.
I have to go with AQ/ISI both being involved; the protection Bhutto had inexplicably broke down at just the right moment and the ISI thugs aren’t known for their willingness to suicide bomb themselves.
Whether Musharaff was involved, hard to say, though I wouldn’t be surprised either way. He had lots to gain and lots to lose with the death of Bhutto.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:53 am#23, No, barfly, according to the neocons (Podharetz especially), the cold war was WW3. WW4 is the war against terror, so any new war ginned up would have to be WW5.
Seems like World Wars aren’t what they used to be, eh?
December 28th, 2007 at 11:55 amWe’ll see Musharref’s real colors if he allows the scheduled elections to take place, or not.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:56 amComment by RUCerious — December 28, 2007 @ 11:49 am
For your benefit, I will amend: Pakistan in general is a chaotic dump with no real and peaceful solution in sight. Karachi isn’t exactly a paragon of beauty.
The government is and always has been screwed up, partly through outside influences and partly through their own corruption. You can blame the “west” but sooner or later you have to be willing, at least a little, to come to the conclusion that Pakistanis are just as capable of intransigence and corruption as anyone else.
Bhutto herself was no symbol of perfection, though she tried to portray herself as such.
December 28th, 2007 at 11:59 amNow they tell us she hit her head on the lever of her sun-roof fracturing her skull. Must have been one of those fighting sun-roof levers. This story stinks to high heaven.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:01 pmOK, Lobes, amendment noted. My DBA friend Ray is Pakistani, from the south, and show me pictures of his family and friends, in flower (not poppy) fields that stretch for miles into the background. He’s got a Master’s degree, and is one of the smartest, nicest people I have ever met. His kids, precocious as hell, but fun to romp with.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:01 pmAnd yes, Lobes, the Pakistanis must take some of the responsibility for the unrest and corruption in government on themselves, absolutely. Hopefully they can have an election and determine their future in a democratic manner.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:02 pm“Police abandoned their security posts shortly before Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto’s assassination…”
December 28th, 2007 at 12:05 pmleftcoast, your link please, I’d like to read that whole story…Thanks!
December 28th, 2007 at 12:05 pmSorry, link did not appear:
December 28th, 2007 at 12:05 pmhttp://rawstory.com/news/2007/Police_abandoned_security_posts_before_Bhutto_1228.html
It seems to me, and I realize that conspiracy theories are not necessarily in “vogue” on any given day, the Bush/Cheney Republican Fascist Dictatorship has more to gain than anyone from Bhutto’s assassination. We know that in order to be effective dictatorships require hefty doses of FEAR, CHAOS, and mistrust among the general population to stay in power. With the so called “surge” working in Iraq (violence and deaths have diminished somewhat), the Republican Regime needed another front to scare the hell out of the American people and to focus the electorate on “who can protect you best”. Pakistan seems to be that front due to its political instability and the fact that they REALLY DO have nuclear weapons. Knocking off Bhutto was an effective way to create that “fear and chaos” dictatorships need to mantain their strangle hold on power – not only in Pakistan, but also in the United States.
Forget the imminent collapse of the American economy – Forget Immigration – Forget the free fall of the dollar on the world financial markets – the Fascist Repub’s can focus the public’s attention once again to “who can protect you the best!” If the MSM goes along (and we know they will) the debate will change. And if Rudy Guilliani (Mr. 911) begins to rise in the polls we may have a pretty good idea what happened. And what about Pakistan and Musharaff? Who cares about a bunch of little brown people…things like that haven’t stopped the Bush/Cheney Regime before – No reason for them to stop now!
December 28th, 2007 at 12:09 pmComment by RUCerious — December 28, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
Thats cool, my Karachi reference is personal as I got the chance to visit the place while in the USN and is notable for having occurred exactly one week before a bunch of foreign tourists were murdered in a bus while touring the same city.
I have no doubt there are many Pakistanis such as your friend who are smart, educated family guys but the country “in general” is a mess. When the government allows huge swathes of its own territory to be more or less run by non-governmental tribal entities, well, the word “chaotic” comes to mind.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:11 pmAnd yes, Lobes, the Pakistanis must take some of the responsibility for the unrest and corruption in government on themselves, absolutely. Hopefully they can have an election and determine their future in a democratic manner.
Yes, hopefully, though that new government may have all sorts of people pining for the good ol’ days of Musharaff.
The educated, presumably peaceful Pakistanis such as your friend need to take the reins, though I doubt they would get very far without a massive public following, and that just isn’t going to happen anytime soon.
A recent CNN poll showed that 46 percent of Pakistanis approve of Osama bin Laden while Musharraf polled at 38 percent. Not a good sign.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:17 pmAnd what about Pakistan and Musharaff? Who cares about a bunch of little brown people…things like that haven’t stopped the Bush/Cheney Regime before – No reason for them to stop now!
Comment by ForeverDem — December 28, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
Sooooo…B/C concocted a violent scheme to make us care about a country full of little brown people?
December 28th, 2007 at 12:20 pm“Sooooo…B/C concocted a violent scheme to make us care about a country full of little brown people?”
I guess you were born Sept 12, 2001?
December 28th, 2007 at 12:23 pmNow they tell us she hit her head on the lever of her sun-roof fracturing her skull. Must have been one of those fighting sun-roof levers. This story stinks to high heaven.
Comment by robertoroberto — December 28, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
She hit her head on the lever of her sun-roof, yet Al Qaeda and the Taliban were responsible. Who knew that Al Qaeda employed sun-roof levers in their arsenal?
Somebody’s lying — that’s obvious. The question is how many liars are in this ugly scene.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:26 pmMusharraf’s Interior Minister announced Bhutto died by bumping her head on the sun roof.
So she wasn’t assassinated, she died of her own clumsiness.
THE BULLSHIT METER JUST EXPLODED!
December 28th, 2007 at 12:26 pmI guess you were born Sept 12, 2001?
Comment by robertoroberto — December 28, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
Let me do the guessing now: you are a ‘truther’?
December 28th, 2007 at 12:28 pmComment by missmolly — December 28, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
I agree that the bullsnaz seems to be getting deeper and deeper, though I believe the sunroof reference relates to the bomb explosion blowing her back into the limo which made her head hit the edge of the sunroof.
Bhutto purportedly has injuries to her shoulder and head which would indicate some sort of bomb or bullet hits, and seeing as how her body is untouched and none of the other limo passengers were hurt, this may have some credence.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:32 pmNo no, not a truther per se. I’m just suggesting that these guys are perhaps a little more involved in events that you would like to believe. Mind you, as someone who refers to Pakistan as a country “full of little brown people”, my estimate on your age might well be accurate.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:33 pmLet me do the guessing now: you are a ‘truther’?
Comment by Lobishomen — December 28, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
Is this supposed to be an insult? Since when did it become a bad thing to want to learn the truth? Would you prefer a “liar”?
December 28th, 2007 at 12:34 pmComment by robertoroberto — December 28, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Sorry, but if you believe that Bush/Cheney had any direct involvement whatsoever in 911, then you are a ‘truther’, i.e. you believe something like that.
As to the “little brown people” remark, please see the post I was responding to (Comment by ForeverDem — December 28, 2007 @ 12:09 pm) before you decide to trample me with your high horse.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:36 pmComment by Lobishomen — December 28, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
Your simplification by adopting the term “truther” makes you a “tool”. If you harbor no doubts about the patriotism of the world’s two biggest terrorists, Bush and Cheney, then you should be upbraided and laughted at as often as possible.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:42 pmComment by toasterhead — December 28, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
In hopes that this thread will not be co-opted by a 911 conspiracy debate, I will offer this one OT comment and then be done with it: the ‘truther’ brigades are flying in an atmospheric level that seems to be devoid of necessary oxygen.
Claiming that there is ‘truth’ to be found in no way supports the idea that such truth actually exists. Hysterical speculation about dark conspiracy doesn’t lend itself well to the argument, rather it makes those who support such an idea look like paranoids who haven’t yet produced any viable evidence for their cause.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:42 pmFair enough on the ‘brown people’ comment. My apologies.
I would say that it’d be nice to know the truth about all events involving this administration. I’d prefer to know EXACTLY what happened on September 11. Just like i’d prefer to know EXACTLY what happened yesterday. The story is changing by the minute. But if Sept 11 is anything to go by, in a few years the story will change hundreds of times.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:43 pmBhutto herself was no symbol of perfection, though she tried to portray herself as such.
Comment by Lobishomen — December 28, 2007 @ 11:59 am
Good thing Bush never tried that.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:44 pmrather it makes those who support such an idea look like paranoids who haven’t yet produced any viable evidence for their cause.
Comment by Lobishomen — December 28, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
it actually makes those who ignore the destruction of all evidence look like gullible idiots. that’s you, by the way.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:45 pmhttp://rawstory.com/news/2007/Police_abandoned_security_posts_before_Bhutto_1228.html
December 28th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Aha, the old Al Quaeda connections. Even is the mastermind Osama Bin Laden is maybe dead for quite a while already. At least Benazir Bhutto said so in an interview with David Frost.
This administration has lost on all fronts. They are really at a loss of what to do now, that Pandora’s box is open.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:50 pmI guess TP will need to change the headline to “Bhutto facts buried”. The usual fascist BS.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:51 pmJust like i’d prefer to know EXACTLY what happened yesterday. The story is changing by the minute. But if Sept 11 is anything to go by, in a few years the story will change hundreds of times.
Of course it is, most likely because you have an historically corrupt political system with what, hundreds of players, trying to control the flow of information and wrangle their own advantages from this event.
Many people wanted Bhutto dead; it might very well be that none of them want to know or even care who killed her as her death benefits them all.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:54 pmMushy will stay in office no matter what now.
There are pros and cons to holding the scheduled election from all sides. If he holds the election now, there is no competitor (the second most powerful party has called for a boycott of the elections) – he wins and people will see it as a false election. If he delays the elections in order to give some time to a legitimate opposition to build up, then he will be viewed as delaying democracy and further destabilize the country.
He wins and is screwed all in the same breath. What a mess.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:09 pmI agree, we should either invade and topple the Musharraf government or else force them to give up their nukes somehow.
Comment by Lobishomen
Or maybe just STFU about who has and who hasn’t.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:09 pmThe U.S. pushed Bhutto into returning. Personally, and I’m no foreign policy expert, I thought it looked pretty reckless considering the climate in Pakistan lately. Some see the U.S. support of Bhutto as a sign of desperation.
“For Benazir Bhutto, the decision to return to Pakistan was sealed during a telephone call from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice just a week before Bhutto flew home in October. The call culminated more than a year of secret diplomacy — and came only when it became clear that the heir to Pakistan’s most powerful political dynasty was the only one who could bail out Washington’s key ally in the battle against terrorism.”
December 28th, 2007 at 1:12 pmLinky thing not working for me.
Link here:
December 28th, 2007 at 1:13 pmhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22414361/
When the government allows huge swathes of its own territory to be more or less run by non-governmental tribal entities, well, the word “chaotic†comes to mind.
Comment by Lobishomen
Sounds like your “messy” country where kids shoot themselves at schools.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:14 pmSounds like your “messy†country where kids shoot themselves at schools.
Comment by Juan C. — December 28, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
Hint: that happens in other countries too, though I must say your example isn’t relevant. Regardless of the crimes which occur in the U.S., their territorial integrity hasn’t been ceded to violent, untouchable, clannish elements of society.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:18 pmThe U.S. pushed Bhutto into returning. Personally, and I’m no foreign policy expert, I thought it looked pretty reckless considering the climate in Pakistan lately. Some see the U.S. support of Bhutto as a sign of desperation.
Bhutto was a rich woman living a life of ease in europe, if she didn’t feel the pull of political power she could have easily decided against returning to Pakistan. She knew of that power once, perhaps she wanted some of it back again.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:21 pmHint: that happens in other countries too, though I must say your example isn’t relevant.
Comment by Lobishomen
Fact: not in any developed country as much as in the US.
Regardless of the crimes which occur in the U.S., their territorial integrity hasn’t been ceded to violent, untouchable, clannish elements of society.
Agreed, therefore your racist description of Pakistan is out of line.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pmBhutto was a rich woman living a life of ease in europe, if she didn’t feel the pull of political power she could have easily decided against returning to Pakistan. She knew of that power once, perhaps she wanted some of it back again.
Comment by Lobishomen — December 28, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
And you point is? Are you saying that the urge to wield political power is what allowed her to be manipulated by the U.S.?
December 28th, 2007 at 1:31 pmhttp://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/bhutto.dhs.alqaeda/index.html
Also Friday, the state-run news agency Associated Press of Pakistan reported al Qaeda had claimed responsibility for killing Bhutto.
So, if Al Qaeda was behind it does that mean they are more comfortable with Musharraf in power?
That kind of makes sense considering that after signing that treaty with the tribal leaders in western Pakistan agreeing not to send his troops in to search for Al Qaeda he is for all intensive purposes sheltering Al Qaeda.
The question now is: when will our government stop sending Musharraf’s government money?
December 28th, 2007 at 1:42 pmFact: not in any developed country as much as in the US.
Then again the U.S. doesn’t have nightly mass- car torchings such as developed France enjoys omnipresent surveillance cameras such as those in developed Britain.
Agreed, therefore your racist description of Pakistan is out of line.
No race was mentioned, merely a comment about the corruption and chaos which exists in the Pakistani government and the country in general.
Another hint for you: next time you decide to make a claim of racial bias, at least have a relevant example to back you up, one that isn’t based on personal opinion.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:47 pmAnd you point is? Are you saying that the urge to wield political power is what allowed her to be manipulated by the U.S.?
Comment by mary — December 28, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
My point is that claiming that Bhutto was forcefully manipulated by the U.S. is to ignore the fact that Bhutto seemed pretty happy doing her political ‘thing’ back in Pakistan. She didn’t seem to be wearing a campaign face that said, “I don’t want to be here”.
Bhutto had the resources to live at ease yet she chose to inject herself back into the political scene, probably because she has been there before and liked the job. She wasn’t exactly a paragon of political honesty either, no matter how much the west tried to portray her as such.
December 28th, 2007 at 1:52 pmPakistan leaders now say Bhutto died from a bump on the head and she wasn’t assassinated. Plus they just got messages of some name who said he did it. This has the blue print of the Kennedy assassination all over it. Yes our Leaders killed JFK but said the Harry Potter magic bullet did it yes one bullet traveled all over the place even through steel. Now photo’s and witnesses who saw and heard the shots from the grassy noel, which was in direct target to Kennedy. Yes our Government investigators found the proof but accidentally destroyed it. So Musharraf cleared the way for the killing of Bhutto, as the US gave the famous Al Qaeda did it and hears the fake proof. I don’t think the Pakistan people are as dumb as Americans and just believe a fake story. Now I know the Media will support the fake story and Americans will believe anything.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:06 pmComment by Lobishomen — December 28, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
Show me where I said anything about Bhutto being “forcefullly manipulated”. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
I said that she was “pushed” into returning to Pakistan. Pushed by a possibly desperate U.S.. As in desperate to maintain U.S. control over events in Pakistan. Did you read my link?
Here’s another quote from it to help you out:
“Bhutto’s political comeback was a long time in the works — and uncertain for much of the past 18 months. In mid-2006, Bhutto and Musharraf started communicating through intermediaries about how they might cooperate. Assistant Secretary of State Richard A. Boucher was often an intermediary, traveling to Islamabad to speak with Musharraf and to Bhutto’s homes in London and Dubai to meet with her.
Under U.S. urging, Bhutto and Musharraf met face to face in January and July in Dubai, according to U.S. officials. It was not a warm exchange, with Musharraf resisting a deal to drop corruption charges so she could return to Pakistan. He made no secret of his feelings.”
December 28th, 2007 at 2:06 pmIn an interview with David Frost, Bhutto explained that these groups were being used by those inside the government to create unrest and fear.
She named three people she thought were behind it and said she had told Musharref that she intended to get Scotland Yard’s help with an investigation…
She also said one of the people she suspected aided Omar Sheikh, “the man who murdered Osama bin Laden”.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2007/12/28/bhutto-names-obl-murderer-and-gives-motive-for-her-asssasination/
December 28th, 2007 at 2:24 pmNo race was mentioned, merely a comment about the corruption and chaos which exists in the Pakistani government and the country in general.
Comment by Lobishomen
So your comment about “a country full of little brown people” was a pigment of my imagination, I guess.
December 28th, 2007 at 3:13 pmDid anyone notice the cheat-sheet Bush used while signing the condolence book? Look at the index card he’s looking at… Does he really need a script even for a simple condolence?
December 28th, 2007 at 3:39 pmThis post is an interesting take on Bhutto’s death:
http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2007/12/another-washington-failure.html
snippet:
“The fact is that she was parachuted in by Washington in order to win a rigged election in a country where just about every power group absolutely hated her, a recipe for disaster. It is not so much a question of who killed her, but who got the first opportunity to succeed.”
willyloman – see my post #105 in the huckabee thread (I know, I got off thread there – can I blame you? – but this whole Bhutto thing is way more interesting than Huckabee!)
December 28th, 2007 at 3:41 pmThank you everyone for your objective comments. I was trawling the net looking for some real reasons for the Bhutto situation as the media has nothing to say but their usual sensational, divisive, one dimensional drivel.
December 28th, 2007 at 6:46 pmregards
Want to know why she was assasinated? Here it is. http://www.dailypaul.com/node/17925 If you still think the war on terror is legitimate, you need to have your head checked!
December 28th, 2007 at 7:36 pmBhutto asserted to David Frost less than two months ago that bin Laden had been murdered by Omar Sheikh, whom the Sunday Times once described as “no ordinary terrorist but a man who has connections that reach high into Pakistan’s military and intelligence elite and into the innermost circles†of bin Laden and al-Qaeda. (Watch video starting at 5:33 for mentioned part.)
http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/pakistan_bhutto_said_osama_bin_laden_was_dead.htm
December 29th, 2007 at 10:57 am